1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hi, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: I am Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Frying, and 4 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: today we're going to talk about something we both love 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 1: so much. Is It's like one of our favoritest things. 6 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: It is. It is cheese. She's has a nine thousand 7 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,239 Speaker 1: year history and the varieties that we have of it 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: today are mostly the products of little tweaks that people 9 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: have made throughout history for one reason or another. UM. Basically, 10 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: every cheese that we have today has some kind of 11 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,160 Speaker 1: story to tell about where it came from that's tied 12 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: to the animals that were being raised, what the weather 13 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:52,840 Speaker 1: and climate were like, the people making the cheese, whether 14 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 1: it had to be stored or shipped or anything like that. UM. 15 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: A lot of these refinements come straight from human ingenuity 16 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: and cure reosity, but it's also a very necessity. Is 17 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: the mother of invention kind of story. Making cheese is 18 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: a balancing act with milk and how much moisture, salt, 19 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,119 Speaker 1: and bacteria are in that milk, and what people's lives 20 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: were like when they were trying to make cheese. So 21 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 1: I'm excited. And it's kind of interesting from an anthropological 22 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: standpoint because as people have spread out, cheese went with 23 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: them yet so it really has um brought its own 24 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: flavor to be punny. Unfortunately, Oh of two various cultures, 25 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: like cheese informs cultures in an interesting way. Hands of 26 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 1: the cultures informed the cheese. Yes, I love it. I 27 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: did not mean for that to be a pun, but 28 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: that's what came out. We're being all puney and reciprocal 29 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: in the cheese cycle. So here's the legend of where 30 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: cheese came from. And and there are a couple of 31 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: problems with this legend. Uh that gets it gets passed around, 32 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: it's it's fact. So according to the lore, someone, a 33 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: person in some Arab country was traveling a very long 34 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: way carrying milk in a skin that was made from 35 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: an animal's stomach um and when he got ready to 36 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: take a drink of milk, he discovered it had curdled 37 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 1: into cheese. Uh. This may have been how people discovered rennet, 38 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 1: which is the an enzyme from animal stomach that is 39 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: used to make cheese. But it's probably not where cheese 40 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: came from. For a couple of reasons. One is that 41 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: before people started eating cheese, milk was pretty much just 42 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: for babies because adult humans could not digest lactose um, 43 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: they couldn't make lactase, which is the enzyme that breaks 44 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: up breaks down lactose after they were babies. So unless 45 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: this guy was traveling a long way with a baby, 46 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: he didn't really have a good reason to be carrying 47 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: a skin of milk with him. Or maybe he was 48 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,799 Speaker 1: going to visit a baby. Maybe, but maybe people didn't 49 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: often carry milk around in skins because it was a 50 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: high risk of spoilage. It really milk was consumed fresh 51 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: and only buy babies until after cheese was discovered Slash invented. 52 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: A more likely scenario is that people discovered that if 53 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: you left milk out, it would solidify and coagulate, and 54 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: if you worked at at a little bit, you could 55 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: separate that into kurds and way and it's not far 56 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: to get from that to cheese. So that's a little 57 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: more likely than the animal skin carrying story. Just keep 58 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 1: thinking about cheese. So the more likely history, uh, you know, 59 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: by about seven thousand BC, people living in the Fertile 60 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: Crescent had started to domesticate animals, and they were cultivating plants, 61 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: so they had sheep and goats, and goats in particular 62 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: were used uh. They were accustomed to living in relatively 63 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: confined spaces like caves, so they would have been very 64 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: easy to domesticate at that point. If you look at 65 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: evidence from that long ago, the goats and sheep that 66 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: were being kept were probably more about and meat than milk, 67 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: because there wasn't an overwhelming number of female animals versus 68 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: male animals um. They also look at what ages the 69 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: animals were its slaughter. Farming for wool also would have 70 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: come later, because sheep that far in the past didn't 71 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 1: really have usable wool as their hair um, so the 72 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: earliest sheep probably mostly used as a source of meat. 73 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 1: So several things had to have had to happen for 74 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: people to wind up making cheese. They had to have 75 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: a reason to want to pasture animals and use pastured 76 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: animals as a as a food source. They had to 77 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: have animals that could give them more milk than their 78 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: own young needed, which would have taken some generations of 79 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 1: breeding to get animals that produce more milk. I love 80 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: this one. They had to know how to milk the animals. 81 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: That had to have been an interesting trial and error. Yes, well, 82 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: and then the animals had to allow themselves to be 83 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: milked by people, which is another thing. You know, animals 84 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: can be very obstinate, so this is another thing that 85 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: would have required some effort. And lastly, they would have 86 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 1: needed a way to store the milk. But as we 87 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: talked about before, there are some difficulties with using skins 88 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: for storing milk. This worked out to be pottery um 89 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 1: or more specifically, the discovery that you could apply heat 90 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: to clay and turn it into pottery. And so once 91 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 1: we had all those things together at the same place 92 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 1: at the same time, people were able to develop cheese 93 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: and this happened at about b C in the western 94 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 1: half of what is Turkey today. We can look at 95 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 1: shards of pottery from that era and know that people 96 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: were raising animals for milk because there are milk fat 97 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: residues and the pottery shards um and the proportion of 98 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 1: male and female animals also changes in the anthropological record 99 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 1: at that point, so you would could because you would 100 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: need more females to be produced in the milk. Yes, Now, 101 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: probably this milk started out as a food source for babies. 102 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 1: As we mentioned earlier, since humans had not adapted their 103 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: ability to process lactose UH, but they would have quickly 104 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 1: figured out since they didn't have refrigeration, that that milk 105 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: sitting out was going to coagulate, and that they could 106 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: turn up the curds and way when they started. Most 107 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: of the lactose stays in the way when you separate 108 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: the curds from the way, so adults could eat the 109 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: curds and get all the nutritional value with either no 110 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: problems or fewer problems. From a digestive standpoint, Yes, from 111 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: a digestive standpoint, if you or anyone you know is 112 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: lactose intolerant, you have a sense of what that is 113 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: all about. Um. So curds were really valuable source of nourishments, 114 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 1: so people had a good incentive to figure out an 115 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: easy way to separate curds from way, and this came 116 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: in the form of perforated ceramic canister. We have lots 117 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 1: of archaeological evidence for people using ceramic containers with UH 118 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: with perforations in them to separate curds and whey um. 119 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: There's also been some series about woven baskets as well, 120 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: right but those don't really to scrutiny long term. They 121 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: don't hold up as well over thousands of years that 122 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: we don't have as much concrete evidence of whether people 123 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: were using woven baskets to make cheese by separating curds 124 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,679 Speaker 1: and whey um. Based on the fat residues in pottery, 125 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: we think people also figured out how to make things 126 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: like butter at about the same time. The earliest cheeses 127 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: were all They were fresh cheeses. They were more like 128 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: today's ricotta or other soft kind of curdy cheeses. People 129 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:51,239 Speaker 1: would have eaten them quickly since they would spoil without refrigeration. Um. 130 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: They also may have sealed and buried these cheeses to 131 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: try to keep them out of the sun keep them 132 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: a little cooler, and they would also the curds dry 133 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: in the sun. Uh. And it's possible that rennant the 134 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: enzymes from animal stomach is used to ferment were discovered 135 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: at this time as well. The record isn't super clear. 136 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: It's not as easy to find residue of something on 137 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: an animal skin that's broken down over time as it 138 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: would be ceramic, but it's a likelihood. So really, cheesemaking 139 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: then spread out from the fertile Crescent. We have lots 140 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: of pottery shards as evidence that showed the progression of cheese, 141 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:32,079 Speaker 1: along with lots and lots of other things spreading out UH. 142 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: During the Neolithic migration, people were making cheese and butter 143 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 1: from the milk of cows, goats, and sheep um. And 144 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: one of the most recent discoveries of this progression is 145 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: from not too long ago, and it was a seven thousand, 146 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: five hundred year old piece of pottery that was almost 147 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 1: certainly used to make cheese and what is poland today. 148 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: They did the same thing of looking at the residues 149 00:08:57,760 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: that were on the inside of the pottery and what 150 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: they were made of. And so for many years, even 151 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: with this UH migrational progression outward from where it started, 152 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: the cheeses still remained like the fresh acid coagulated and 153 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: rennet coagulated cheeses. So they still hadn't gotten to the 154 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: aged cheese concepts. And in some parts of the world 155 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: that that's that continued to be for always what people 156 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: were making. An example is in India. India has a 157 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: really old tradition of using dairy products with lots of ghee, 158 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:35,119 Speaker 1: which is clarified butter and using Kurds in their cuisine. 159 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: But the only cheese that's indigenous to India is paneer, 160 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: which is a soft cheese meant to be eaten fresh. 161 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 1: There are lots of different theories for why India did 162 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: not develop aged cheeses, and one of them is that 163 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: there's such a focus on food purity in religious texts 164 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: in that part of the world that people were probably 165 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: not down with the idea of letting things mold on 166 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 1: purpose and then eating them. Uh. The climate in in 167 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: India is also not great for the controlled spoilage that 168 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: is really what aging cheese is all about. Yeah, you know, 169 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: I'm imagining that conversation. No, no, it will be delicious, No, 170 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: it will be rotted. Uh. But thankfully that worked out. Uh. 171 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: And as soon as cheese became an important, important as 172 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: part of people's diets, it also took on religious significance. 173 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: Offerings of cheese were made to the gods, for example, 174 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: the Sumerian goddess and Nana, who got daily offerings of 175 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: cheese and butter, and a number of Greek gods and 176 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: goddesses who had cheese among their offerings. There are also 177 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: lots and lots of references to cheese in many religious 178 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: texts from all over the world. Uh. It didn't take 179 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 1: long though, before people started seeing the need to be 180 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: able to store cheese to eat it later instead of 181 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: being able to make it and consume it within a 182 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: day or two. So around four b c. Hittite writing 183 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: starts describing more thaie of cheese that sound a little 184 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: bit more like the harder cheeses that we have today. 185 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: We don't have really good evidence of all of them. 186 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 1: We have more descriptions in writing, but they include descriptions 187 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: like scoured cheese and hard soldier cheese. So there's the 188 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 1: logical conclusion that they developed ways of aging the cheese 189 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: to make it harder to take down the water content 190 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: and the cheese so that it would last longer um 191 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: and being able to form a rind on the cheese. 192 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: But we don't have a lot of, like very clear 193 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:36,199 Speaker 1: pottery evidence to go with that. It's mostly written descriptions 194 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: that people are drawing conclusions from. The first recorded shipment 195 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: of cheese took place in twelve through the Mediterranean Sea, 196 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: which is further evidence that people had developed cheeses that 197 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: would keep At that point most of the cheeses that 198 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: were being shipped around were probably brined cheeses like fetta 199 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 1: that were stored in ceramic jars. And the reason that 200 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: even though these cheeses are very soft and wet, the 201 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 1: reason that they last for longer is that there's lots 202 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 1: and lots of salt in them. Um, if you dry 203 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: salt white cheese that has lots of moisture in it, 204 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: the way starts to come out and mix with the 205 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: salt and it makes this brine that keeps the cheese 206 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: fresher for a longer period of time. You st for fetah, 207 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: which is delicious because I'm literally just rubbing my tommy 208 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 1: and looking my lips over here. That was one of 209 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: the hardest parts of researching this podcast is when I 210 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 1: when I got to a couple of the cheeses that 211 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 1: are delicious and also very salty, and I wanted some 212 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 1: real bad. So grease became an important area for the 213 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: development of cheese. And just like with the earliest cheesemakers, 214 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: the Greeks were making fresh cheeses for daily eating, but 215 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: they were also exporting cheese, so they were developing these harder, 216 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,839 Speaker 1: hardier varieties of cheese that could serve my voyages. Yes, 217 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: we have a wonderful glimpse of how these hard cheeses 218 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: were being made in grease, thanks in part to Odyssease's 219 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 1: encounter with the Cyclops in the Odyssey. Um. Even though 220 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: that is a work of fiction, we're pretty much seeing 221 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: a play by play of how people were making cheese 222 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 1: at the time. Uh. The Cyclops coagulated the milk, probably 223 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: using rennet and maybe also fixed app and then he 224 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: pressed and dried what he got from that. Uh. The 225 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: Odyssey doesn't mention that he salted it, but probably based 226 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: on other evidence at the time, he would have been 227 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: salted what he got from that process, um, and he 228 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: would have pressed it and let it dry, and it 229 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: would have formed a rind as it dried. There were 230 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: drying racks described in Cyclops's cave, and so the result 231 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 1: of this would have been a dried pecorino or a 232 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: caprino cheese. And this is probably the first description of 233 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: a rennet coagulated cheese in literature. And the takeaway from 234 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: the Odyssey is that by ancient Greece people had figured 235 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: out how to coagulate, press and salt cheeses in this way. 236 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: That would make a grind and would be suitable for aging, 237 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: which is so fabulous that it's in the Odyssey of 238 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: All places this record of cheesemaking. Centuries later, people in 239 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: Grease added a cooking step also which allowed cheeses with 240 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: an even lower moisture content, which would make them last 241 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: even longer. And in Sicily, hard cheeses became wildly popular, 242 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: and by the fourth century b C. Their native cuisine 243 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: at that point was full of grated cheese and cheese sauces. 244 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: It was so prevalent that there were cheese naysayers. They 245 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: were They were sort of the the Sicilian fourth century 246 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: BCE version of the angry food critic, who would be like, 247 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: why does there have to be cheese sauce on everything? 248 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: Just let the fish stand on its own, because it's 249 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: so delicious, it's so uny. So cheesemaking in Rome started 250 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: a lot like it did in Greece, with people making 251 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: heat coagulated fresh cheeses using these vessels which are called 252 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: milk boilers. So while the cheeses were these coagulated kurds 253 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: and way kind of process, uh, the vessels that they 254 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: were using were kind of unique to UH to what's 255 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: Italy today um based on the distribution of these milk boilers, 256 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: which were ceramic things that kept the milk from foaming 257 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: over the top. Uh. It's clear that making soft cheeses 258 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: were was an important staple in the Bronze Age all 259 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: over Rome. These were actually still in use in Italy 260 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: as ceramic milk boilers until the nineteenth century, and then 261 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: metal ones became in more common use after that point. 262 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: There is an interesting symbiosis UM that happened between cheesemaking 263 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: and pig farming in Rome. The way that they were 264 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: extracting during the ricotta process was actually a great food. 265 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: Were fattening up pigs and making them also delicious, so 266 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: they would milk lots of animals, get lots of milk, 267 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: separate the curds from the way, feed the way to pigs, 268 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: and then have work to eat. Uh. As the Greek influence, 269 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: so we had just talked about how in Greece they 270 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: were making these smaller, harder cheeses. So as Greek influence 271 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: spread in Rome, hard cheeses did as well, and by 272 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: the seventh century b c. Grated cheeses were a big 273 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: part of the diet in Rome. Also and there are 274 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: many many Roman writers who put together very detailed agricultural manuals, 275 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: and if you care to do so, you can read 276 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: so much about how people were making cheese in ancient 277 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: room thanks to these writers. UH and in Rome, people 278 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: would raise large flocks of sheep to produce both cheese 279 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: and wool. At that point they had developed UH sheep 280 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: farming that was geared more towards wool production, and they 281 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: used the way left over again from the cheesemaking to 282 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,479 Speaker 1: feed the pigs. And they also started experimenting and this 283 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: is where it gets really good for me personally, with 284 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: smoked cheeses uh and also cooked cheeses and much larger 285 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 1: cheeses than the smaller sized pecorino and caprinos. UH. Those 286 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 1: stay small so that the the milk and fluid from 287 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: the middle can evaporate more and they'll keep longer. But 288 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: then bigger cheeses became technologically more doable. Right. The most 289 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 1: famous giant thing of cheese in in ancient room was 290 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: called La Luna. Probably the accounts at the time are 291 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: really exaggerated because they're described it as this like giant 292 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: thing of cheese. Um. It was probably not as giant 293 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 1: as it has often described, but people were using cooking 294 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: and high pressure pressing to get more of the liquid 295 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: out of the middle so that they were able to 296 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 1: make bigger and bigger cheeses. Is how how big is 297 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: it described? Could a family afore live in it um? 298 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 1: One writer described it as being able to provide lunches 299 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: for hundreds of your servants and from just one. Probably 300 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: not actually that big, uh. Some of this innovation of 301 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: of combining cooking and high pressure pressing may have come 302 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 1: from the Celts, who were living in the Alpine regions. 303 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: They also were known as great cheesemakers, and they had 304 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: been making bigger cheeses than the little ones that had 305 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 1: been coming out of Greece. The Celts may have also 306 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: started the practice of salting the smaller kurds before pressing 307 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: them together into one larger cheese, so again the salt 308 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: was making it into the middle of a bigger cheese 309 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: cylinder and preventing spoilage. I like how it's all about 310 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: making the cheese bigger. So much about making the cheese bigger, 311 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: And there's obstacles when you're working with those kinds of 312 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: more manual processes to try to get them middle of 313 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: the cheese dry enough so that it doesn't spoil in 314 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: the middle while the outside is drying. Yeah, that's no 315 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: good now. So where what we've gotten up to you 316 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: at this point is the end of the Roman Empire. 317 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: Before the Roman Empire fell, it spread military outposts and 318 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 1: agricultural manner estates all over the place. Both the military 319 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: outposts and the manner estates had dairying and cheesemaking tools, 320 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:30,919 Speaker 1: So when the Roman Empire fell, all of that stuff 321 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 1: was left behind that people then continued to use to 322 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 1: make their own new types of cheeses, and those new 323 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: types developed all sort of on their own trajectories based 324 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: on the factors that we've already talked about, Like there 325 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: was human curiosity and ingenuity, but also, um, you know 326 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: what was available nearby, you know, weather conditions, uh, what 327 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: the people that were there already knew, etcetera. Uh So 328 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: this continued to be even as the manners broke up 329 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:03,880 Speaker 1: into tinier farmers where people only had one or two 330 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: animals instead of like a whole herd to produce cheese from. Right. 331 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 1: So in in France, uh, soft ripened peasant cheeses began 332 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: to develop. This was basically using the same cheesemaking methods 333 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: that had been common in the Mediterranean, but in the 334 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,360 Speaker 1: cooler climate of northern France, people could hang onto their 335 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: milk for a couple of days before they made cheese 336 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 1: out of it. So in the Mediterranean that would have 337 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,919 Speaker 1: spoiled almost immediately, But where the weather was cooler, you 338 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,120 Speaker 1: could milk your cow and then milk your cow again 339 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: the next day, and then maybe one more day after 340 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: that and put that all together to make cheese out 341 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: of and the cheet the milk from the first day 342 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 1: of milking at that point would have more lactic acid 343 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 1: bacteria in it. Being able to put all of that 344 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: together and then put what you got as a result 345 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 1: into a nice cool cellar meant that you could control 346 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: the spoil it that was going on. And that's how 347 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: friends cheesemakers were coming up with bloomy rind cheeses, lactic cheeses, 348 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: and washed rind cheeses. These were all things that were 349 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: having bacterial activity going on in the inside of the 350 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: cheese that was creating this rind that is often edible 351 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: that is basically mold. Oh, you're making the most hungry 352 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 1: things delicious bald uh. And while manners uh we're crumbling 353 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 1: into smaller farms in other parts of Europe, in England, 354 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: many of them stayed intact until the end of the 355 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 1: Middle Ages. So many of those manners had like a 356 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: dairy maid who would supervise all of the dairy ing, 357 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 1: and most of the cheese in those manners came from 358 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: the sheep rather than the cows for most of the 359 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 1: Middle Ages, and they continued to follow and refine many 360 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: of the more hard cheese trends that the Romans had 361 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: been using, so they have their whole own cheese culture, 362 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: again not meaning to be punny, but their own methodologies 363 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: and approach to it happening as well. Right in the 364 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: thirteenth century, so part way through the Middle Ages, the 365 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: sheep who were being used for milking were also used 366 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: for wool, and the cows used for milking were also 367 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 1: used for meat and leather. But right around the thirteenth 368 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 1: century people started to divide that up a little bit, 369 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 1: so sheep were there for wool, there were dairy cows 370 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: who were just for milking, and then there were other 371 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: cows that were being used for their meat and their 372 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: their leather. Um this is also about the time that 373 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: the English dairying started to move to cows from sheep, 374 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: because cow's milk separates more easily into cream to make 375 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: butter out of h and people were becoming very fond 376 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 1: of butter in England. A series of illnesses and really 377 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: wet seasons, which are bad for sheep, also brought down 378 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 1: the sheep population, making the use of cow's milk to 379 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: make cheese a little bit more of a necessity. And 380 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: in the mountains of Europe in the Middle Ages UH, 381 00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: for the mountainous reasons, cheeses had to be very sturred 382 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: and rugged, both because you had to bring them down 383 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: out of the mountains and later export them uh. And 384 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: for example, one of my very favorite cheeses m oh, 385 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: I love the stuff. Uh. The animals were generally pastured 386 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: up on the mountains uh, and then the people working 387 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: with them would live there with the animals, make the 388 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: cheese there, and then it would have to travel downward. 389 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: This note that the people who were making cheese and 390 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: the alps had to work around the lack of salt, 391 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: because to get salt to the animals where you were 392 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: doing the milking and making the cheese, you would have 393 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: to transport it up there, and that would be difficult 394 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: and expensive. So cheesemakers and the Alps figured out ways 395 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 1: to cut the curds to make them smaller and cook 396 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 1: more of the moisture out of them, and put the 397 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,439 Speaker 1: curds into a more wheel shaped form. A lot of 398 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: the cheeses before this point were more like cylinders than wheels, 399 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: so putting it into more of a wheel shaped form 400 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: would give more surface area for better evaporation. So some 401 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 1: of these Alpine cheese is actually had holes or eyes, 402 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 1: and that was from the collection of carbon dioxide during aging. 403 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: There was bacteria in there that would flourish in those 404 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: conditions and create these little pockets. Uh, they would give 405 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: off carbon dioxide as they reproduced, and that carbon dioxide 406 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: would collect them. Yeah, it would collect in little holes, 407 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: so that the holes that you think of in Swiss 408 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: cheese that's from bacteria propagating cheese is really just disgusting. 409 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: So good I can get past any of the disgusting parts, 410 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: and that's actually incidentally what gives it that sort of 411 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: nutty flavor, right, So I'll take it. Another mountain cheese 412 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: that came from the Middle Ages is rogue Furt and 413 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: the veins and roque fruit cheese are from Penicillium roque fortie, 414 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: which grows in the caves where it was aged. Real 415 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: rogue fruit cheese today comes from these same caves where 416 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: it was originally aged in the Middle Ages and wound 417 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: up infested with the bacteria that gave it its look 418 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 1: and its flavor. Uh. Parmesan also came about during Middle Ages, 419 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 1: though it was not from the mountains, and the techniques 420 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: used to produce it are common in the mountains, but 421 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 1: there was plenty of salt in the Po River valley 422 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 1: where it originated, so they didn't have quite the same 423 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 1: limitations in terms of resource availability. But it uses techniques 424 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,199 Speaker 1: very similar to the Alpine cheese, is just with the 425 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,439 Speaker 1: salt that the Alpine people didn't have. And this is 426 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: where I wanted some really salty parmesan so bad yesterday 427 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 1: when I was working on the cheese. So by the 428 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: Middle Ages, a lot of the cheeses that we eat 429 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 1: today had had been developed, at least in their earlier forms. 430 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: I mean, there are many revisions and tweaks to cheeses 431 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: that have happened since then, but lots and lots of 432 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: the ones that we are most familiar with existed in 433 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: some form by the end of the Middle Ages. One 434 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: exception is the cheese that comes from Holland, where commercial 435 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: dairying did not even start until the fifteenth century because 436 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: the land and the climate were just not right for it. 437 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: There had been some very small farming and dairy operations 438 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 1: on the coast since the Neolithic period, though, but just 439 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: not enough to really form an industry around it. After 440 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 1: the fall of the Roman Empire, the aristocracy in Holland 441 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: started trying to reclaim Holland's frontier and turn it into 442 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 1: workable land. They did not have very many people to 443 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: try to do this, it was not a vastly settled area, 444 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 1: so they would reward peasants who would clear and work 445 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 1: land with big grants of land, and what they were 446 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: basically doing is trying to turn bogs into farmlands by 447 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: using pumps and dikes to get all the water out 448 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: of it. Um As they were able to reclaim more land, 449 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: they started by growing grains and then eventually moved from 450 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: growing food to dairy and then so many cheeses. The 451 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 1: dairy farms actually became really really specialized and they put 452 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: out a an insane variety of cheeses through various innovations 453 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: in packaging, equipments, etcetera. Once they had the technology, they 454 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 1: went wild, sort of expanding and customizing it, which I love. 455 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: English cheesemakers at the time we're responding to demand, while 456 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 1: Holland didn't have those constraints, so they could just invent 457 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: new cheese that people wanted. So that's where we get 458 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 1: an assortment of deliciousness, including edam gouda um. Different kinds 459 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: of packaging came from that sort of pocket of innovation, 460 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,680 Speaker 1: the round instead of square wheels. Thank you Holland. Right, 461 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 1: there was a whole in England at that particular point. 462 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: There was this whole kind of drama going on with cheese. 463 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: There was a cheesemonger's essentially union that was recognized by 464 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 1: the government that had been really controlling the cheesemaking around London, 465 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 1: and then that went horribly awry and they had to 466 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: start looking to other parts of England to make cheese. 467 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: And that led to basically the whole of English chiefemaking 468 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: being about how do we meet the demands of London. 469 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 1: Holland did not have this problem. They kind of had 470 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 1: a the rich luxury of a playground relate. It just 471 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 1: kind of developed cheese they thought would be neat. So 472 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: when you see these these cheeses that have really lovely 473 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: colored coatings, there's sort of like a firm and resilient 474 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: nuttiness to them. A lot of that is coming from 475 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: the combination of what the climate is like in Holland 476 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 1: and then the fact that they've sort of just got 477 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,120 Speaker 1: to go, let's think up some new stuff. Let's see 478 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: what happens if we wash this cheese with this other 479 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: animal product. Let's think up cheese so good. Uh. So 480 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 1: eventually colonists brought cheese and cheesemaking pretty much everywhere that 481 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: people were colonizing. She's traveled with everybody because apparently a 482 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: lot of people loved it then too. Yes, and it's 483 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: a very valuable new food source. I mean it's it 484 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: started as sort of a necessity of how can we 485 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: make this milk not immediately be bad? Uh? And then 486 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: people discovered that, yeah, this is actually a good source 487 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: of nourishment in a lot of ways. Uh. And the 488 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: industrial revolution really changed things because it mechanized a lot 489 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: of these processes that had been kind of what we 490 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: would consider artisan handcrafted right. So, whereas before the Industrial Revolution, 491 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: making cheese was highly highly dependent upon the weather and 492 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: the climate and the altitude and the everything, um, the 493 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,239 Speaker 1: Industrial Revolution made it possible for people to kind of 494 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: replicate those conditions in other places. And so rather than saying, hey, okay, 495 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: we have cheddar cheese that we're making, and we're going 496 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: to try to figure out how to make cheddar cheese 497 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: approximately in this not very English climate, uh, and then 498 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: winding up with some other cheese, it's becomes a lot 499 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: more possible during the Industrial Revolution to say, Okay, we're 500 00:29:55,440 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 1: gonna replicate this technique and also replicate the condition and 501 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: that were present elsewhere to make this cheese that that 502 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: will be more like what we are thinking about from 503 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: where we used to live. And in the US, you know, 504 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: there wasn't the long term cultural heritage that Europe had 505 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: going into cheese development, and the cheese factories just kind 506 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: of blossomed. Uh. People had, I mean they had families, 507 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: and people had their family heritage and they knew how 508 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: their grandmother had made cheese before the family had made 509 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: their way to the to the colonies. But there was 510 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: not quite the institution of cheesemaking as this long many 511 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: many generations of things in one particular place. So the 512 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: US became a huge center of making an exporting cheese, 513 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: and in some cases traditional techniques have kind of died 514 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: out because of the mechani mechanization as well as supply 515 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: and demand. Mozzarella in most places is not made the 516 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: same way it once was. Now it's it's the mozzarella 517 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: was sort of a hand crafted cheese in Italy that 518 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: was made in very small batches, and you can make 519 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: it in a big factory with machines, which a lot 520 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: of the cheese today big factory with machines rather than 521 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: the previous handcrafted sort of small batches. As we've seen 522 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: with many things. There is of course now an artisan 523 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: cheese movement where people are making things in small batches 524 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: using the same basic techniques that people were using hundreds 525 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: or thousands of years ago. Mm I just want to 526 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: think about cheese for a little while longer. Now you 527 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: have today a lot of efforts to sort of label 528 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 1: the cheeses as quote the real thing, So like roquefort, 529 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: you can only call a cheese roquefort if it was 530 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: actually made in those caves people can approximate roquefort like 531 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 1: cheeses elsewhere, but can't carry the name right. It cannot 532 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: carry the name. There are protected designation of Origin or 533 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: p D labels that label where the cheese came from, 534 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: or the geographical indication or the the g I label 535 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: of where the cheese came from. And it's sort of 536 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: like wines and how champagne's are only supposed to come 537 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: from Champagne and not California sparkling wines Champagne, right, and 538 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: not every blue cheese is rogue. All I love cheese. 539 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: It's hard not to wax rhapsodic about cheese. There is 540 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: so much. That's when when I said, hey, let's do 541 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: a podcast about cheese, I think what you said is 542 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: I could do I can't remember which cheese it was 543 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: that you said. We were like, I could do a 544 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: whole podcast about year Probam probably or she toast, which 545 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: is the Norwegian cheese that I'm a big fan of. 546 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: I think it's usually called brunost over there. We call it. 547 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: That's kind of the it's usually exported as but it's 548 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: phenomenal when it has a sweet, nutty it's a brown cheese. 549 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: It's phenomenal. Yes, So there is so much to learn 550 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: about cheese beyond this sort of the origins of cheeses 551 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 1: that we've talked about today. We will link to lots 552 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: of places to learn about more about cheese in our 553 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: show notes when we put those up after this podcast 554 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: comes out. And am I to understand that you also 555 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: have a bit of listener mail. I do have. I 556 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 1: have to listener mails. They are both from Facebook and 557 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: they are both about Johnny Applesey. The first is from Benjamin, 558 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: and Benjamin says you mentioned that John Chapman died when 559 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 1: he was seventy and that it was impressive given the 560 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: life expectancy at the time was forty years. While both 561 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: facts are correct, the comparison is invalid. Life expectancy was 562 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: so low because of the high rate of infant and 563 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 1: child mortality, not that forty was the age most adults 564 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: were dying. While living to seventy is impressive, it's not 565 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: far out of the expected lifespan of an adult at 566 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: the time. This is true, so forty is an average 567 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: based on infant death as well as people that were 568 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 1: living to be in their seven right. And what's funny 569 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: is that both both podcasts. We recorded two podcasts about 570 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: people right at the same time. There was the Johnny 571 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: Appleseed one and the Marjorie Kemp one, and both in 572 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: both cases the people were writing had remarked on their 573 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: age at death and how old that was compared to uh, 574 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: the average. UM. I found this awesome site, but I 575 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,359 Speaker 1: will link to you in our show notes where you 576 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: can graph life expectancies from birth versus from age five 577 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: versus from age twenty one. Um. And really once you've 578 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 1: got to age, once you got past age five, you've 579 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 1: got a bunch of more years of life expectancy. Um. 580 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: And then once you got to age twenty one also 581 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 1: similarly extra years of life expectancy. So a lot of 582 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: people were dying between birth and five, but if you 583 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: got past five, and especially if you got past twenty one, 584 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: then you were more likely to live a lot longer. 585 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: So thank you Benjamin for pointing that out. And we 586 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: will link to this awesome, awesome mapping history site that 587 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: I found so cool, so cool, I've spent way too 588 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: much time doing that this morning when I was meant 589 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,359 Speaker 1: to be doing other things. Um. The other listener mail 590 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,359 Speaker 1: that I have about Johnny Appleseed is from Jeremy. Jeremy says, 591 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 1: I love stuff you missed in history class and love 592 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: your recent podcast on Johnny Appleseed. I listen to your 593 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 1: interesting and informative talks while I take my fine racing 594 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: Dotson on long walks around town. I am a new 595 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: church minister, and I'm not going to say where he 596 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: is the pastor, because I think that might be well 597 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,479 Speaker 1: retained privacy. He would like some in case he would 598 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 1: like that. But he is a new Church minister, and 599 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 1: we have always been proud of this quirky character who 600 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 1: did so much to spread the word of Swedenborg in 601 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: the early eighteen hundreds. We have several signs of Johnny's 602 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 1: trees in town here, and there are many descendants in 603 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 1: our congregation of people that he converted. I love that 604 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 1: you referred to the New Church as intellectual. It is 605 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 1: true that it is great for explaining Christian teaching. One 606 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: thing I would note is that although Johnny was unusual, 607 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 1: I doubt that it is true that he had talked 608 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: of having two spirit wives, as this would never fit 609 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: with a New Church theology. While it's true that the 610 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: New Church had this kind of a Heyday in the 611 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: USA and the eighteen hundreds, especially after the Civil War. 612 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 1: It still exists and is growing today all over the world. 613 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 1: He says, keep up the great work. So thank you 614 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: very much, Jeremy. That's such a great insight from a 615 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 1: perspective we would not normally have access to. It is great. 616 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: Um The source of my source about the spirit wive things. 617 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 1: So the source was the Johnny Applesseeed book that we 618 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 1: talked about in the podcast. My sources source was by N. N. 619 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:43,360 Speaker 1: Hill and others, Uh, The History of co Shockton County, Ohio. 620 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: It's pasted in present seventeen forty eight eighty one, containing 621 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 1: a comprehensive history of Ohio, a complete history of co 622 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: Shockton County, a history of its soldiers in late war, 623 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,319 Speaker 1: biographies and histories of pioneer families, et cetera. That is 624 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 1: the entire title. It's from eighty one. You can read 625 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 1: the entire thing in archive dot org if you want, 626 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 1: which is incredible. Um So, I don't know what that 627 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: particular books source was, but the other information that it 628 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:15,240 Speaker 1: has about Johnny Appleseed looks to be correct. Um So, 629 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: while I do not know, we're certain where that information 630 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 1: came from I will say that uh, as is often 631 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 1: the case, h one person's behavior should not be seen 632 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: as representative of an entire religion. Yeah. Well, and we 633 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 1: also know from that podcast that he did love to 634 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 1: tell stories and sometimes love to tell odd and interesting 635 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: stories to entertain people. So we can't know unless we 636 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 1: really did pretty deep far back, and we may not 637 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 1: have access to that information. If the germ of that 638 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 1: may have been in something like that, or if he 639 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: really believed it, you don't. I don't really know, but 640 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: now we know that that is totally not down outside 641 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 1: of New Church teaching. So thank you very much Benjamin 642 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,879 Speaker 1: and Jeremy for your thoughts on these two. I'm going 643 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 1: to put a link to both that and inordinately long 644 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: titled book um and the Mapping History site in our 645 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: share notes if you would like to look at them. 646 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 1: If you would like to talk to us, there are 647 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: so many ways that you can. We are on Facebook 648 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 1: at facebook dot com slash history class stuff. We're on 649 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,759 Speaker 1: Twitter at missed in History. We're also at missed in 650 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 1: History dot tumbler dot com, and you can email us 651 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,879 Speaker 1: at History Podcast at Discovery dot com if you would 652 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: like to learn more about what we talked about today, 653 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: which I absolutely do. You can go to our website 654 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 1: and put the word cheese in the search bar and 655 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,160 Speaker 1: you will find How Cheese Works, which has lots of 656 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 1: information about why cheese does the way it does, and 657 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: a little history section at the end. You can do 658 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 1: all of that in a whole lot more at our website, 659 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 1: which is how stuff Works dot com. For more on 660 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Is that how stuff 661 00:38:52,680 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: works dot com. This episode of Stuff You Missed in 662 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:07,800 Speaker 1: History Class is brought to you by Audible