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Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host,

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Speaker 1: Elisa Donovan. Hey, everybody.

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Speaker 2: Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller. Today, we

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Speaker 2: are going inside one of the longest and most extraordinary

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Speaker 2: manhunts in FBI history and the television series that brought

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Speaker 2: it to life. For 17 years, the Unabomber terrorized the country,

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Speaker 2: killing three people and injuring 23 others while leaving investigators

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Speaker 2: almost nothing to identify him. Then he did something that

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Speaker 2: would ultimately help lead the FBI straight to him. He

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Speaker 2: started writing. My guest today is James R. Fitz Fitzgerald,

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Speaker 2: the retired FBI criminal profiler and forensic linguist whose analysis

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Speaker 2: of Ted Kaczynski's language played a key role in identifying

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Speaker 2: him and obtaining the warrant to search his remote Montana cabin.

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Speaker 2: Fitz later served as a consulting producer on the Discovery

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Speaker 2: series Manhunt Unabomber. Today, we are separating Hollywood from reality.

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Speaker 2: What Manhunt got right, what it invented, and how Fitz

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Speaker 2: used Ted Kaczynski's own words to help finally catch him. James,

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Speaker 2: welcome to Killer Thriller. Thank you so much for being

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Speaker 2: with me today.

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Speaker 3: I would say it's a thrill to be here, but

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Speaker 3: since it's in your title, I won't overuse the word.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Elisa, for inviting me.

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Speaker 2: I really, honestly, this is not an exaggeration when I say.

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Speaker 1: I am really.

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Speaker 2: Just very excited to talk with you. I'm obsessed with

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Speaker 2: what your job is essentially in general. So, but today

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Speaker 2: we're obviously talking about Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber and the.

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Speaker 1: Series that you were a part of creating.

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Speaker 2: So now we know that much of this series was fictionalized,

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Speaker 2: including your characters, jailhouse interviews with Ted, but the series

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Speaker 2: opens two years after the arrest of your character. living

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Speaker 2: alone in a remote cabin. So were you actually living

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Speaker 2: that way or was that the writers visually showing us

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Speaker 2: how deeply you got into Ted?

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Speaker 3: Lisa, all good questions. And there's been an interesting juxtaposition

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Speaker 3: lately with that 2017 Discovery Channel miniseries, Manhunt Unabomber, and

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Speaker 3: the one on Netflix now simply called Unabomber. Right. And

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Speaker 3: you said it was much fictionalized. I always say, Of course,

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Speaker 3: it was, Manhunt Unabomber was a fictionalized, somewhat fictionalized version

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Speaker 3: of the real story, but they got a lot right too.

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Speaker 3: And I was a consulting producer and I made sure

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Speaker 3: of that. I argued with them about the scenes with

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Speaker 3: Sam Worthington, interviewing Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber, Paul Bettany, the actor.

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Speaker 3: And I said that never happened. But despite that, and

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Speaker 3: to go specific to your question, No, I never lived

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Speaker 3: in a cabin. If anything, I told the writers I

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Speaker 3: have a beach house. Put me at the beach somewhere

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Speaker 3: if you think I had to get away for a

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Speaker 3: little bit, which I didn't. And they said, no, it

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Speaker 3: wouldn't really fit our narrative. Because, of course, if you

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Speaker 3: watch the opening scenes, it involves like a mailbox, a

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Speaker 3: box going through the postal system, which interestingly, the new

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Speaker 3: Unabomber movie started in a mailbox. So it's this movie

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Speaker 3: coming out or that's already out as a bit derivative

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Speaker 3: in that regard. But then the very next scene is

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Speaker 3: this bearded guy living in the woods in a cabin,

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Speaker 3: carrying a dead rabbit he just killed for dinner. And

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Speaker 3: the audience, of course, was supposed to think that was

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Speaker 3: the Unabomber. But no, in reality, it was the Fitz character,

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Speaker 3: my nickname, Jim Fitzgerald. And then from that point on,

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Speaker 3: the black car pulls up, the suits get out from

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Speaker 3: the FBI, and they convince Fitz to come back. Highly fictionalized,

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Speaker 3: never happened.

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Speaker 2: Okay, thank you for clarifying that because I was a

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Speaker 2: little concerned about your general well-being.

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Speaker 3: I'll tell you though, Elise, the part of that series

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Speaker 3: that bothered me the most, and I always correct people

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Speaker 3: on this because they watch the series. I forget what episode, four, five.

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Speaker 3: There's a scene where Fitz by Sam Worthington takes his

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Speaker 3: two older boys to a movie.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 3: They're like 13 and 11, so they're not like their

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Speaker 3: little toddlers. takes him to a movie and he gets paged,

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Speaker 3: you know, on his beeper back then, kind of before

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Speaker 3: cell phones, all of us anyway. And he runs off,

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Speaker 3: makes a call and tells the boy, I'll be right back.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to go to the office. Be right back.

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Speaker 3: And of course you see him in the office with

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Speaker 3: paper spread all around the floor, looking at this, looking

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Speaker 3: at that. Then, you know, it goes on a few

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Speaker 3: more minutes, maybe some split scenes. All of a sudden

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Speaker 3: his wife comes in. Where have you been? What do

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Speaker 3: you mean? The boys had to call me and pick

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Speaker 3: them up at the movie. So in the movie, the

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Speaker 3: Fitz character sort of abandons his two sons pre-teens. Again,

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Speaker 3: they weren't like toddlers roaming the streets. But still, they

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Speaker 3: could call mom and she came to pick them up.

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Speaker 3: That never happened either. So to me, whenever I go

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Speaker 3: in order, I didn't abandon my kids. I didn't live

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Speaker 3: in a cabin. And no, I never interviewed Ted Kaczynski.

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Speaker 3: No FBI agent did. But they had to put two

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Speaker 3: A-list actors together in multiple scenes, make for a better storyline.

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Speaker 3: And they, after a lot of arguments, me not returning

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Speaker 3: calls for about a week, uh, during the, you know,

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Speaker 3: the script writing process and me, you know, reviewing everything

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Speaker 3: for facts. I, I, I finally had no choice. Uh,

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Speaker 3: you know, I didn't have a right of, you know,

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Speaker 3: script refusal as, uh, they say. And I tell people now,

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Speaker 3: you know, uh, law enforcement people, if they're making a movie, miniseries, whatever,

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Speaker 3: you may want to try to get something written in there,

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Speaker 3: but you may not, they may not go with it

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Speaker 3: either because writers and directors. production companies, they want the

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Speaker 3: final say. And I get that too. So I always

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Speaker 3: say 85% accuracy for Manhunt, Unabomber. Those three scenes are

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Speaker 3: the main ones. And I reversed the numbers for Unabomber,

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Speaker 3: the one on Netflix now, it's about 15% accurate. Oh, wow.

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Speaker 1: Interesting.

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Speaker 2: See, this is kind of the crux of the question.

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Speaker 2: of how do you actually make a series or a

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Speaker 2: movie about something that is, first of all, so public, but,

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Speaker 2: you know, so devastating. And I do think, you know,

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Speaker 2: in many circumstances, you do have to, there is some

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Speaker 2: dramatic license that's taken, et cetera, and you kind of,

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Speaker 2: have to, that's how you make a narrative that makes sense,

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Speaker 2: you know, without having to, you know, unless you had a,

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Speaker 2: you know, you could make a hundred part series perhaps

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Speaker 2: that could be accurate, you know. So when you joined

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Speaker 2: the Unabom task force in 1995, investigators had already been

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Speaker 2: chasing Ted for, or they didn't know it was Ted,

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Speaker 2: chasing this guy for 17 years. How much did you

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Speaker 2: actually know about the man that you were looking for

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Speaker 2: at that point?

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Speaker 3: Yeah. And that's a good question. And I try to

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Speaker 3: address that in my third book, A Journey to the

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Speaker 3: Center of the Mind, book three. That's a four book

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Speaker 3: memoir series. And I devote a long final chapter, 200

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Speaker 3: pages to that. And I've always been a news junkie.

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Speaker 3: So even when I was a young police officer in

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Speaker 3: suburban Philadelphia, on lonely late night shifts, I'd get the

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Speaker 3: local newspaper. And I'd be reading articles and, oh, here's

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Speaker 3: this Unabomb guy again. Who the hell is this guy?

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Speaker 3: And what does Unabomb even mean? Oh, that's right. University

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Speaker 3: Airline Bombings. A lot of people weren't even born when

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Speaker 3: the crimes were committed. The bombings were taking place. So

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Speaker 3: I found I have to remind them that Unabomb is

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Speaker 3: an acronym, University Airline Bombings. And so, you know, finish

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Speaker 3: up my career there, join the FBI in New York

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Speaker 3: City for seven years, and then– get promoted to profiler position.

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Speaker 3: And John Douglas, the kind of the grandfather of profiling

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Speaker 3: in the US, he's just retiring. I'm just coming on board.

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Speaker 3: He gives in our training, we had a 12-week training block. Remember,

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Speaker 3: we're all experienced special agents. Now we're supervisors, just promoted,

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Speaker 3: but we have a 12-week academy to attend in all

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Speaker 3: matters profiling. And one of those blocks was for two

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Speaker 3: hours about the Unabob case. And John Douglas presented it

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Speaker 3: and he was retiring like two weeks later. About a

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Speaker 3: week after he retired, I get a phone call at

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Speaker 3: the beach house that was never referenced in the Manhunt

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Speaker 3: Unabomber series. And they said, Fitz, want to go to

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Speaker 3: San Francisco for 30 days, work the Unabomb case? I said,

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Speaker 3: I don't know too much about it, except what I've

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Speaker 3: read in the media all these years. I know there's

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Speaker 3: a manifesto coming out. And of course, the profile that

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Speaker 3: John Douglas told us about a few weeks ago. All right,

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Speaker 3: then you're going. So on the way out, they gave

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Speaker 3: me a big three inch binder, kind of the days

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Speaker 3: before we had little tablets that we could do everything digitally.

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Speaker 3: And I carried it on the plane with me and

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Speaker 3: I really brought myself up to that, the case as

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Speaker 3: much as I could in a six hour or so

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Speaker 3: flight from DC to San Fran. And that's when I

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Speaker 3: learned everything I could. I read the manifesto, at least

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Speaker 3: most of it. People forget there were 13 letters before

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Speaker 3: the manifesto received that the Unabomber either sent to victims

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Speaker 3: and had tricked them into opening up packages and they

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Speaker 3: blew up in their face or letters that he was

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Speaker 3: now sending to the media, the New York Times specifically,

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Speaker 3: but some others, and just telling them his philosophy, his ideology.

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Speaker 3: So I had a lot to catch up on, but

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Speaker 3: that's when I found in the 1985 letter to Dr.

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Speaker 3: McConnell at University of Michigan, I won't get into the

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Speaker 3: weeds here, but I found a secret message in it

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Speaker 3: that no one saw before. And I came to the

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Speaker 3: Unabombe Task Force. I remind people, we're all FBI, but

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Speaker 3: there's like 30,000 of us. I didn't know anyone out there.

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Speaker 3: So I show up, oh, so you're the new profiler? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm actually brand new, you know, seasoned investigator. seven years

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Speaker 3: in New York, 11 years as a police officer before that,

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Speaker 3: but a brand new profiler. I said, and I'll do

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Speaker 3: the profiling stuff, but did you see this hidden acrostic,

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Speaker 3: which is a message that goes, it's written vertical, the

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Speaker 3: first part of each paragraph. And I picked up on

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Speaker 3: it and they said, we never saw this before. And

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Speaker 3: from that point on, I was put in charge of

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Speaker 3: all the language in the case, including the manifesto. I

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Speaker 3: had a master's in psychology already, but nothing in linguistics,

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Speaker 3: language science, anything like that. But they still said, Fitz,

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Speaker 3: you're the one that runs the language stuff. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: we'll get some profiling info out of you too if

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Speaker 3: we need it. So that got me to work. I just,

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Speaker 3: I all but memorized the manifesto, just reading it day in,

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Speaker 3: day out. And that's when I found, not a hidden message,

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Speaker 3: but paragraph 185, now very well known, if not iconic,

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Speaker 3: you can eat your cake and have it too, where

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Speaker 3: he transposed the two verbs. I said, ah, finally a mistake.

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Speaker 3: Good job, Fitz, for finding that. What does it mean?

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Speaker 3: I don't know. But if we find someone else out

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Speaker 3: there that uses this exact expression with those verbs transposed,

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Speaker 3: we've got a really big clue for us. And eventually,

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Speaker 3: out of many other suspects that we had at the time,

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Speaker 3: Ted Kaczynski was never the only suspect. But out of

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Speaker 3: all the other suspects we had, I got some writings

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Speaker 3: of Ted Kaczynski's, and I was already leaning in that direction,

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Speaker 3: that he was the Unabomber. But then near the end,

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Speaker 3: we finally found Another letter he wrote back in the

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Speaker 3: early 70s, and at the bottom, you can't eat your

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Speaker 3: cake and have it too. And that's when the lawyer

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Speaker 3: signed off on the search warrant, the judge signed it off,

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Speaker 3: and the rest is history.

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Speaker 2: So in the series, I'm going to come back to

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Speaker 2: what I was going to ask next, but based on

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Speaker 2: what you just said, in the series, they really make

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Speaker 2: that moment of waiting for the actual search warrant happen.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of pace to it and there's an urgency.

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Speaker 2: And was that actually the way it was? Were they

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Speaker 2: waiting and then going to get him?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was. I mean, we really felt, and again,

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Speaker 3: if you read my book and it's a little bit

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Speaker 3: of it in the 2017 Manhunt Unabomber series, they got

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Speaker 3: a lot of right in that series too. I'm not

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Speaker 3: here to bad mouth that series. Just take out those

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Speaker 3: few scenes I mentioned. And they really do capture well

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Speaker 3: dissension at some point in the UTF, including way back

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Speaker 3: when the manifesto was first received at the New York Times.

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Speaker 3: The FBI gets the original copy, like everything else he sent,

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Speaker 3: or his bombs, no fingerprints, no DNA, the very early

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Speaker 3: days of DNA analysis, no hairs, fibers, nothing that we

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Speaker 3: could come up with. And I said, look, there's some

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Speaker 3: not unique, but idiosyncratic writing styles here, He wants this

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Speaker 3: thing published in the New York Times or some other outlet.

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Speaker 3: And he said he'll stop killing if we do it.

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Speaker 3: Let's do it. And I know there's been a lot

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Speaker 3: of analogies in the last month or so with the

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Speaker 3: movie 12 Angry Men, which was literally about a jury trial.

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Speaker 3: But in this case, it was eight of us in

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Speaker 3: a room. And I was the first person to say,

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Speaker 3: we got to publish this thing. Remember, I'm an outsider.

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Speaker 3: I'm not one of the San Francisco-based Unabombed Task Force

239
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Speaker 3: management team members. But they did invite me in. They

240
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Speaker 3: were very cordial in that regard, gave me say. And

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Speaker 3: I'm the first one, when some people didn't want to

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Speaker 3: have it published, giving in the demands of a terrorist

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Speaker 3: and acceding to his wants and needs. And there'll be

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Speaker 3: copycats all over the place. I said, there's enough distinctive

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Speaker 3: writing in here. Someone will identify him. I really thought

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Speaker 3: it would be a teacher, a professor, but I didn't

247
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Speaker 3: roll out family member. And so we did publish it.

248
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Speaker 3: And it took a while to get that information published.

249
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Speaker 3: And then there are some people still not even sure

250
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Speaker 3: it was Ted Kaczynski himself. And I said, no, based

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Speaker 3: on the writings alone, it's it. And then we're dealing

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Speaker 3: with a prosecutor in San Francisco, the U.S. Attorney's Office.

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Speaker 3: And we're looking at everything we can with Ted Kaczynski.

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Speaker 3: We have a team up in Lincoln, Montana, kind of

255
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Speaker 3: observing him from afar. There was a hidden camera near

256
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Speaker 3: his cabin. Very little movement on his part. There's like

257
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Speaker 3: no bank records. He paid everything with cash. And this

258
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Speaker 3: prosecutor was saying to me, Fitz, I like this language

259
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Speaker 3: stuff you're coming up with. You're comparing the manifesto to

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Speaker 3: the known writings of Kaczynski. There's some nice connections you're

261
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Speaker 3: making here and associations, but it's definitely not enough for

262
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Speaker 3: an arrest warrant, which you need a high probable cause

263
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Speaker 3: because you're taking someone's freedom away from them, as it

264
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Speaker 3: should be. But I don't think we have enough for

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Speaker 3: a judge to sign a search warrant. You've got to

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Speaker 3: find me something else. And the series portrayed it pretty

267
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Speaker 3: well in that I'm still going through these. I'm the

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Speaker 3: first one to see the documents that David, the brother,

269
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Speaker 3: and Wanda, the mother, is giving to the FBI. The

270
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Speaker 3: typewriters didn't match up with those documents, Unabombed Docs. So

271
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Speaker 3: we had to find it in the language. And all

272
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Speaker 3: of a sudden, my feet are up on a desk

273
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Speaker 3: one day. I'm heading up the linguistic team. I'm going

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Speaker 3: through these documents. I'm numbering them 130, 131, 132. I

275
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Speaker 3: come to T137, read it. All right, just mark it off. Oh,

276
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Speaker 3: there's some interesting stuff here. Very last line, blah, blah, blah, environment, technology,

277
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Speaker 3: whatever it is. But then you can't eat your cake

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Speaker 3: and have it too. And I actually fell out of

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Speaker 3: my chair, literally. And I have witnesses. I said, wait

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Speaker 3: a minute, give me the original version. My original version. Manifesto,

281
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Speaker 3: where it was earmarked and post-its and everything else on it.

282
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Speaker 3: open up the paragraph 185. We just have that number

283
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Speaker 3: memorized and there it is. Blah, blah, blah. Technology.

284
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Speaker 1: Oh my God.

285
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Speaker 3: Environment, but you can't eat your cake and have it

286
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Speaker 3: to matching up perfectly. Ran down to the prosecutor's office

287
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Speaker 3: or actually I called him, said, come up to the

288
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Speaker 3: task force. I have a, I have something I want

289
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Speaker 3: to announce. I bring it up and I tell them

290
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Speaker 3: for the first time, the whole team. And they said, uh,

291
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Speaker 3: this is just what we need to get the search warrant.

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Speaker 3: That is our linguistic smoking gun. And, uh, We were

293
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Speaker 3: still going to wait about a month, but that's when

294
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Speaker 3: Dan Rather interfered and said, we're going to run with

295
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Speaker 3: this tonight. And Louis Freeh, the director, talked him into

296
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Speaker 3: three more days. Then we put the final touches on it,

297
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Speaker 3: got it approved by a judge in Montana, searched the cabin,

298
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Speaker 3: and inside was a treasure trove of evidence.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I have.

300
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Speaker 1: chills over all of this. And the series really does

301
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Speaker 1: cover that well.

302
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Speaker 3: It does.

303
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Speaker 1: It does cover that very, very well. And it sounds

304
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Speaker 1: like very accurately. Ted's brother....

305
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Speaker 2: David and the sister-in-law, Linda Patrick, they are the ones

306
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Speaker 2: that came to you all, right, with this information and said,

307
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Speaker 2: this sounds like him. So how important were they to

308
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Speaker 2: cracking the case?

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Speaker 3: Oh, they were very important. In my book and any

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Speaker 3: type of, if I have an interview in which I

311
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Speaker 3: have enough time, yeah, I always sing the praises of David.

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Speaker 3: He's truly an altruist. He took the million dollar reward,

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Speaker 3: but after he paid for some legal expenses, for himself

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Speaker 3: and his wife. And he gave the rest of his

315
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Speaker 3: money to the victims, the reward money to the various victims.

316
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Speaker 3: So he's a standup guy all the way around. I

317
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Speaker 3: think his wife, Linda, just died in the last year.

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Speaker 3: It's always sad to hear that. But yeah, I always

319
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Speaker 3: found it ironic to find out months later, she was

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Speaker 3: an academic and she was in Paris on an academic

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Speaker 3: at a conference somewhere. And you may not be old

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Speaker 3: enough to remember this, but used to sit in the

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Speaker 3: lobby of these hotels. And there'll be one computer there,

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Speaker 3: maybe two. Yep. And you take your turn to use

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Speaker 3: the internet.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I'm old enough for that.

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Speaker 3: All right. I remember. You hide it well, Elisa. Anyway,

328
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Speaker 3: and that's what she was doing. She says, oh, what

329
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Speaker 3: is this Unabomber Manifesto? And she really had no other

330
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Speaker 3: interest in looking at it. And, you know, she logs

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Speaker 3: on to the very young, very new FBI.gov website. Because

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Speaker 3: I don't think the newspapers back then had any, if

333
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Speaker 3: they had a website or just had to get, subscriptions,

334
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Speaker 3: things like that. But I don't think anywhere else was

335
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Speaker 3: the manifesto being covered. And again, the irony is that

336
00:18:58,230 --> 00:19:01,830
Speaker 3: the Unabomber was very much against technology in all its forms,

337
00:19:02,270 --> 00:19:06,929
Speaker 3: certainly anything post-industrial revolution. And here he is, someone is

338
00:19:07,010 --> 00:19:11,890
Speaker 3: on a computer thousands of miles away from him and

339
00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,540
Speaker 3: reading this manifesto. And she says to herself, I've never

340
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Speaker 3: met my brother-in-law. I know he's kind of a wacky

341
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Speaker 3: guy that lives in a cabin in Montana in the woods.

342
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Speaker 3: But boy, I've read his letters and I've talked to

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Speaker 3: my husband, David. This sounds just like him. She gets home.

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Speaker 3: We've heard all this after the fact, of course, when

345
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Speaker 3: they were interviewed. She gets home, convinces her husband to

346
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Speaker 3: go on the same website, read the manifesto. And he

347
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,220
Speaker 3: takes like two weeks. Yeah, my brother, the Unabomber, right.

348
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Speaker 3: He wouldn't hurt a fly. And that's actually a term

349
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Speaker 3: he used a few times. But he read it and

350
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Speaker 3: basically had that. Holy S moment to himself. This sounds

351
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Speaker 3: a whole lot like him. And the phrase that was

352
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Speaker 3: in the manifesto, but we never found any other writings,

353
00:19:54,500 --> 00:19:58,440
Speaker 3: but nonetheless, it's the one that David knew was important,

354
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Speaker 3: was the term, a noun phrase, cool-headed logicians. So that

355
00:20:07,810 --> 00:20:09,869
Speaker 3: was in the manifesto. It was never in any of

356
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Speaker 3: the writings that we found of Ted Kaczynski. But David

357
00:20:12,830 --> 00:20:16,550
Speaker 3: told us that, in fact, when Ted would talk to him,

358
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Speaker 3: he would use that term, whatever that's supposed to mean.

359
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Speaker 3: You're one who deals in logic and you're cool-headed, whatever.

360
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Speaker 3: So David, that's what really attracted him. But he still

361
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Speaker 3: fought it off and said, oh, my brother can't be

362
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Speaker 3: the Unabomber. And it's almost like a Greek tragedy. What

363
00:20:32,170 --> 00:20:35,850
Speaker 3: do you do when he's fiddling? Yes, right. He's a

364
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Speaker 3: mass murderer. I should say a serial murderer. And he

365
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Speaker 3: could have been a mass murderer if he brought down

366
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Speaker 3: the aircraft in 1980 when he mailed the bomb on it.

367
00:20:48,410 --> 00:20:51,060
Speaker 3: But so the bottom line is he did call up

368
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Speaker 3: the FBI very hesitatingly and said, I'm hoping you can

369
00:20:54,220 --> 00:20:58,180
Speaker 3: prove my brother is not the Unabomber. But he kept saying,

370
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Speaker 3: if it is him, I want a deal, no death penalty,

371
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Speaker 3: no death penalty. Once after the arrest was made, there

372
00:21:03,810 --> 00:21:05,409
Speaker 3: was a little bit back and forth on that. I

373
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Speaker 3: had nothing to do with that part. That's now Department

374
00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,040
Speaker 3: of Justice involved in that. But eventually they reached a deal.

375
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Speaker 3: Ted would plead guilty to multiple charges and two life

376
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:20,830
Speaker 3: sentences in the Supermax in Colorado. And that's where he

377
00:21:20,869 --> 00:21:22,390
Speaker 3: stayed until he died just a few years ago.

378
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Speaker 2: So one of the things that the series captures so

379
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Speaker 2: well is just how incredibly careful Ted was, which you

380
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Speaker 2: spoke about briefly earlier. So you've said that he stripped

381
00:21:35,190 --> 00:21:39,129
Speaker 2: the identifying skins off batteries and then made his own

382
00:21:39,190 --> 00:21:43,350
Speaker 2: adhesive from deer hooves there. He left no fingerprints, no DNA.

383
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Speaker 2: Did it ever strike you as ironic that someone so

384
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Speaker 2: obsessed with leaving no physical trace ultimately gave himself away

385
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Speaker 2: through something that he could hide, which is the way

386
00:21:54,490 --> 00:21:55,080
Speaker 2: that he wrote?

387
00:21:55,859 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I've had that, I've had thoughts of that

388
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Speaker 3: for years and I've certainly been asked that and had

389
00:22:00,540 --> 00:22:05,530
Speaker 3: discussions with people. And, um, I usually get a twofold question.

390
00:22:05,750 --> 00:22:09,850
Speaker 3: If the brother never turned him in, and sometimes I

391
00:22:09,890 --> 00:22:11,530
Speaker 3: have seasoned, I'll just stick with this for a minute,

392
00:22:11,550 --> 00:22:15,030
Speaker 3: seasoned investigators, they'll kind of, you know, maybe like they're

393
00:22:15,090 --> 00:22:18,390
Speaker 3: half cocky or half kidding. Oh, well, the brother turned

394
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Speaker 3: him in. I said, well, okay. Have you ever worked

395
00:22:21,310 --> 00:22:25,389
Speaker 3: any bank robberies or murder cases? And someone calls, oh,

396
00:22:25,410 --> 00:22:28,710
Speaker 3: my brother killed Joe Smith or robbed the first national bank.

397
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Speaker 3: You just go and put handcuffs on the guy? Well, no,

398
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,399
Speaker 3: you have to build your case afterwards. Nice. Thank you.

399
00:22:35,050 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 3: And David was not the only person contacting us regarding

400
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Speaker 3: who may be the Unabomber. When I got to San

401
00:22:42,780 --> 00:22:48,500
Speaker 3: Francisco in summer of 95, they had 2,500 suspects. Some named,

402
00:22:48,660 --> 00:22:52,139
Speaker 3: some unnamed, a lot of ex-husbands in there too, of course,

403
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,610
Speaker 3: and former lawyers. But none of them carried any weight

404
00:22:56,630 --> 00:23:01,050
Speaker 3: at that point. So the two-part question I get is,

405
00:23:01,990 --> 00:23:04,590
Speaker 3: if the brother never turned him in, Yet you still

406
00:23:04,650 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 3: had his writings. Would you still have been able to

407
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,100
Speaker 3: identify and arrest them? And I said, yes. And I

408
00:23:10,140 --> 00:23:12,360
Speaker 3: put this in my third book. We had a plan

409
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:18,679
Speaker 3: to start doing deep dive archives around the country and

410
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:24,010
Speaker 3: different newspapers and magazines and looking for topics such as

411
00:23:24,510 --> 00:23:30,889
Speaker 3: the anti-environment, industrial revolution, and a lot of the keywords

412
00:23:30,930 --> 00:23:34,930
Speaker 3: that he used in the manifesto. And now this is before,

413
00:23:35,070 --> 00:23:38,050
Speaker 3: and the internet was around, but the search engines were

414
00:23:38,869 --> 00:23:41,790
Speaker 3: in 95, 96, next to nothing. So this would have

415
00:23:41,810 --> 00:23:44,790
Speaker 3: been actually getting a team of agents in each division

416
00:23:44,830 --> 00:23:47,429
Speaker 3: and around the country to knock New York Times, can

417
00:23:47,450 --> 00:23:49,790
Speaker 3: we look through your archives of all your letters to

418
00:23:49,810 --> 00:23:54,430
Speaker 3: the editor? Yes. Atlantic Magazine, Life Magazine back in the day.

419
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 3: And I think we would have found that letter I

420
00:23:57,260 --> 00:24:01,060
Speaker 3: just mentioned to Saturday Evening Magazine. You can't eat your

421
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,510
Speaker 3: cake and have it too. But even without that, He

422
00:24:03,550 --> 00:24:06,350
Speaker 3: wrote a lot of letters to different magazines, signing his

423
00:24:06,390 --> 00:24:10,290
Speaker 3: name and complaining about different things in society. I think

424
00:24:10,330 --> 00:24:12,030
Speaker 3: he would have been on a list of a number

425
00:24:12,050 --> 00:24:14,570
Speaker 3: of other people that we would have checked out. And

426
00:24:14,609 --> 00:24:18,930
Speaker 3: I think eventually we would have gotten him. Now, to

427
00:24:19,060 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 3: answer the ultimate question you just asked me, if he

428
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 3: never wrote, would we have caught him? And it's very possible,

429
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 3: it's very possible, Elisa, that we may not have. We'd

430
00:24:30,980 --> 00:24:33,810
Speaker 3: have to get lucky with fingerprints or DNA on one

431
00:24:33,830 --> 00:24:37,570
Speaker 3: of the devices or him practicing out in the woods.

432
00:24:37,619 --> 00:24:41,410
Speaker 3: Someone hears an explosion and calls the police and they

433
00:24:41,430 --> 00:24:44,169
Speaker 3: put two and two together at that point. But it's

434
00:24:44,190 --> 00:24:46,310
Speaker 3: very possible if he didn't do his writing. And I've

435
00:24:46,330 --> 00:24:51,390
Speaker 3: said this before, it's really his hubris. It's his personality.

436
00:24:52,170 --> 00:24:54,770
Speaker 3: His wanting to be not identified, but wanting to be

437
00:24:54,830 --> 00:24:58,510
Speaker 3: known and having this cause, which may or may not

438
00:24:58,550 --> 00:25:01,410
Speaker 3: have been a legitimate cause. Because as I've told people,

439
00:25:01,450 --> 00:25:04,429
Speaker 3: if you read the manifesto, much of it is derivative,

440
00:25:04,450 --> 00:25:06,810
Speaker 3: to use that word again, of other people before him.

441
00:25:07,630 --> 00:25:10,250
Speaker 3: He's not the first one upset with the Industrial Revolution

442
00:25:10,670 --> 00:25:14,650
Speaker 3: or with modern society and how it's progressing. A French

443
00:25:14,690 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 3: philosopher named Jacques Yule wrote a whole book that Kaczynski

444
00:25:19,420 --> 00:25:23,419
Speaker 3: heavily referenced, yet he never cited him in the manifesto. Interesting.

445
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 3: He cited other people, but he borrowed a lot from him.

446
00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 3: And I'm not saying Kaczynski wasn't brilliant. He was a

447
00:25:29,260 --> 00:25:32,640
Speaker 3: genius in his own right. But I really think this

448
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:41,460
Speaker 3: whole anti-industrial revolution and modern technological society was more of

449
00:25:41,540 --> 00:25:46,180
Speaker 3: a ruse to cover up a term that I didn't

450
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,070
Speaker 3: have back in the mid-90s working the case, but I've

451
00:25:49,090 --> 00:25:52,950
Speaker 3: assigned to him since then. I believe firmly he was

452
00:25:52,990 --> 00:25:57,410
Speaker 3: an incel, involuntarily celibate. He was one of these guys,

453
00:25:57,450 --> 00:26:02,260
Speaker 3: he could not meet the woman that satisfied him. No

454
00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 3: woman really paid attention to him. He wasn't a bad

455
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 3: looking guy. He was brilliant. You know, he was trim, fit,

456
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,010
Speaker 3: all these things, but he just did not have the

457
00:26:12,109 --> 00:26:18,090
Speaker 3: socialization skills to, to, to, to get into a relationship

458
00:26:18,130 --> 00:26:20,550
Speaker 3: with someone. And I wrote his, he wrote, he wrote

459
00:26:20,830 --> 00:26:24,010
Speaker 3: a thousand different documents that we found in his cabin,

460
00:26:24,990 --> 00:26:29,850
Speaker 3: his autobiography, his memoir, his journal, his diary. notes. And

461
00:26:30,030 --> 00:26:32,670
Speaker 3: many times he wrote about women in his life and

462
00:26:32,770 --> 00:26:35,390
Speaker 3: how he thought he got close and, and, but they

463
00:26:35,430 --> 00:26:37,740
Speaker 3: turned them down or they wouldn't, he was too nervous

464
00:26:37,780 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 3: to approach them. He wrote, he's a virgin. He never

465
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,820
Speaker 3: had sex with a woman. He said he's a straight male,

466
00:26:44,900 --> 00:26:48,330
Speaker 3: never interested in homosexual. A lot of people forget he

467
00:26:48,350 --> 00:26:50,609
Speaker 3: was confused in the mid sixties and he went to

468
00:26:50,630 --> 00:26:54,669
Speaker 3: the University of Michigan psychology office and he wanted to be,

469
00:26:55,150 --> 00:26:57,450
Speaker 3: he wanted to be a woman. So all the trans

470
00:26:57,490 --> 00:26:58,750
Speaker 3: stuff we're talking about now.

471
00:26:58,770 --> 00:26:59,510
Speaker 1: Really?

472
00:26:59,570 --> 00:27:03,250
Speaker 3: Back in the mid-60s. Yeah, this is public information. He

473
00:27:03,290 --> 00:27:07,430
Speaker 3: went to a psychologist there saying, all these sexual issues

474
00:27:07,490 --> 00:27:09,689
Speaker 3: I have, I can't meet a woman, they won't have

475
00:27:09,730 --> 00:27:12,730
Speaker 3: sex with me, whatever. He's still working on his PhD

476
00:27:12,780 --> 00:27:15,780
Speaker 3: at University of Michigan. He goes to this shrink and

477
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:20,379
Speaker 3: he writes it in great detail in his autobiography. And

478
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,700
Speaker 3: he said, he talked to the shrink and he basically

479
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,669
Speaker 3: wanted surgery the next week. And the shrink sat with

480
00:27:26,730 --> 00:27:30,980
Speaker 3: him and said, well, Mr. Kaczynski, here's what we're going

481
00:27:31,020 --> 00:27:33,740
Speaker 3: to do. We're still in the mid-60s. We're not in

482
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,180
Speaker 3: the 2000s yet. I'm kidding about that part. But he said, look,

483
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,060
Speaker 3: we're going to talk for about a year, just the

484
00:27:40,100 --> 00:27:42,699
Speaker 3: two of us. Let's see where your feelings are. And

485
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,860
Speaker 3: then maybe after that, we'll prescribe some medications to you

486
00:27:46,260 --> 00:27:48,780
Speaker 3: for a few years. Then depending where we are in

487
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 3: the three to five years, we'll consider doing some of

488
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:57,780
Speaker 3: these exploratory surgeries we have now. even back in the 60s. Wow.

489
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 3: And according to Ted in his own writings, he said, thanks,

490
00:28:01,510 --> 00:28:03,690
Speaker 3: but no thanks. Got up out of the room, slammed

491
00:28:03,710 --> 00:28:06,570
Speaker 3: the door, walked outside and said, hell with it. I'll

492
00:28:06,590 --> 00:28:09,270
Speaker 3: stay a man. But I am now convinced it's people

493
00:28:09,330 --> 00:28:12,210
Speaker 3: like him I want to kill. I will kill people

494
00:28:12,270 --> 00:28:15,629
Speaker 3: like him when the time is right. They deserve to die. Now,

495
00:28:15,670 --> 00:28:18,730
Speaker 3: he never took out a psychologist or psychiatrist or even

496
00:28:18,750 --> 00:28:21,330
Speaker 3: a medical doctor, but he complained about them a lot

497
00:28:21,390 --> 00:28:23,830
Speaker 3: in the manifesto. And it took them about 12 years

498
00:28:23,850 --> 00:28:29,949
Speaker 3: from then 1978 to start his bombings. And it was

499
00:28:29,990 --> 00:28:33,210
Speaker 3: an eclectic mix of victims, but all related to university

500
00:28:33,230 --> 00:28:35,990
Speaker 3: and airlines early on, then computer stores a bit later

501
00:28:36,050 --> 00:28:38,370
Speaker 3: after that, then a little bit more after that. So

502
00:28:38,390 --> 00:28:41,290
Speaker 3: he was a confused guy. And I will say he

503
00:28:41,310 --> 00:28:46,300
Speaker 3: was brilliant. And I'll still say to this day, there's,

504
00:28:46,390 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 3: I think, 28 chapters in his manifesto, the way he

505
00:28:50,100 --> 00:28:52,860
Speaker 3: set it up, like a broken clock, which is right

506
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,260
Speaker 3: twice a day. Maybe in each chapter, there's a bullet

507
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 3: or a thought he put in there that had some

508
00:28:59,940 --> 00:29:03,740
Speaker 3: credibility and validity to it. And even today, maybe that

509
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,850
Speaker 3: we are too much dependent on technology with our cell

510
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,870
Speaker 3: phones and fit watches and everything else that we're on

511
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:14,310
Speaker 3: all the time. And he may have been right about

512
00:29:14,350 --> 00:29:16,630
Speaker 3: things like that, but of course he didn't have to

513
00:29:16,690 --> 00:29:19,910
Speaker 3: bomb and kill people to get his point across. But again,

514
00:29:19,930 --> 00:29:21,790
Speaker 3: I think it comes back to him being an incel.

515
00:29:22,430 --> 00:29:24,070
Speaker 3: I think a lot of these mass shooters today, the

516
00:29:24,290 --> 00:29:28,580
Speaker 3: younger men, And sometimes trans people, they're just so confused sexually.

517
00:29:28,980 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 3: You rarely see any of them with like a girlfriend

518
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,250
Speaker 3: or a wife occasionally, but it's more rare than common.

519
00:29:36,710 --> 00:29:39,780
Speaker 3: And I think that was the Unabomber situation too. Some

520
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,940
Speaker 3: of these guys like him, if they had a girlfriend,

521
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 3: I'm not blaming women of the world. I'm just saying,

522
00:29:45,020 --> 00:29:47,860
Speaker 3: if somehow he could have acquiesced and maybe it wasn't

523
00:29:47,900 --> 00:29:50,060
Speaker 3: a perfect woman, I think he would have had a

524
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,860
Speaker 3: whole different philosophy on life and there would be three

525
00:29:52,900 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 3: people still alive and two dozen more that haven't been

526
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 3: that grossly disfigured.

527
00:29:56,780 --> 00:30:15,950
Speaker 2: Yeah. So Manhunt devotes almost an entire episode to Ted's past,

528
00:30:15,990 --> 00:30:21,390
Speaker 2: his childhood, and entering Harvard at 16, and his isolation,

529
00:30:21,530 --> 00:30:25,290
Speaker 2: and the psychological experiments that he participated in there. And

530
00:30:25,930 --> 00:30:29,180
Speaker 2: they are particularly disturbing. And there has been a lot

531
00:30:29,220 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 2: of speculation about what role those experiments.

532
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,580
Speaker 1: Played in Ted's later life. Do you think that people

533
00:30:35,620 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 1: make too much of that connection?

534
00:30:38,090 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and just up front, in the Manhunt Unabomber series,

535
00:30:41,130 --> 00:30:43,900
Speaker 3: there were eight episodes, about an hour each, give or take,

536
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,780
Speaker 3: maybe 45 minutes each. That was episode six. I had

537
00:30:47,820 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 3: nothing to do with that episode. It was a whole

538
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,260
Speaker 3: different actor who played a young Ted. Just like when

539
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,220
Speaker 3: I reviewed the present Netflix Unabomber movie, I basically just

540
00:30:57,260 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 3: skipped over those 20 segments. I actually counted. There were

541
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 3: 20 segments each, if I got the number right, of

542
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:11,790
Speaker 3: 1995 Unabomber Task Force. trying to catch him in 1958, 59, Harvard.

543
00:31:12,510 --> 00:31:15,620
Speaker 3: So what I will say is this. I read all

544
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 3: of the cabin documents, as we called them, those 1,000

545
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,820
Speaker 3: documents found inside his cabin upon his arrest. They were

546
00:31:23,860 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 3: really never meant for other humans to read. And they

547
00:31:28,900 --> 00:31:30,860
Speaker 3: gave us a lot of evidence, of course, that he

548
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:35,820
Speaker 3: was the bomber. But at the same time, he talked

549
00:31:35,860 --> 00:31:40,550
Speaker 3: about his Harvard days. He never once mentioned the Harvard experiments,

550
00:31:41,290 --> 00:31:43,950
Speaker 3: MK Ultra, which that term wasn't even used in this

551
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,780
Speaker 3: current movie. It was used, I believe, in Manhunt Unabomber,

552
00:31:47,820 --> 00:31:53,260
Speaker 3: that episode six. And it really, that is just something

553
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 3: that is in this movie. And as far as anyone

554
00:31:56,500 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 3: else knows, that's completely made up and fictionalized. It's going

555
00:32:00,580 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 3: to be the dialogue. There was a professor named Henry Murray.

556
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 3: There was something allegedly called MKUltra. They did work with

557
00:32:08,060 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 3: the CIA and it had to do with like brainwashed

558
00:32:11,660 --> 00:32:14,380
Speaker 3: prisoners of war back from the Korean War and how

559
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,140
Speaker 3: can they fight that or whatever. So I guess the

560
00:32:17,220 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 3: argument could be MKUltra worked so well with Ted Kaczynski

561
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,710
Speaker 3: that he didn't even write about it. He didn't remember

562
00:32:24,770 --> 00:32:27,290
Speaker 3: anything to do with it and he became the Unabomber.

563
00:32:27,750 --> 00:32:31,270
Speaker 3: But by all accord, there were hundreds of people that

564
00:32:31,330 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 3: went through those experiments in the late 50s, early 60s.

565
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,020
Speaker 3: And as far as we know, the only serial killer

566
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,660
Speaker 3: was Ted Kaczynski. So I think there had to be

567
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:46,300
Speaker 3: a whole other personal formula in his life, including his childhood.

568
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:51,110
Speaker 3: And he did highly resent his parents. They pushed him academically,

569
00:32:51,570 --> 00:32:56,450
Speaker 3: but he feels they failed him socially and personally. And

570
00:32:56,830 --> 00:32:59,850
Speaker 3: he truly disliked them. And some of the letters that

571
00:32:59,870 --> 00:33:02,550
Speaker 3: he wrote to them over the years that we eventually

572
00:33:02,590 --> 00:33:05,850
Speaker 3: had access to and his own personal writings in his cabin.

573
00:33:06,270 --> 00:33:10,070
Speaker 3: He really, really disliked his parents. His father committed suicide.

574
00:33:10,110 --> 00:33:12,310
Speaker 3: He was, we think he was so upset about, he

575
00:33:12,830 --> 00:33:15,310
Speaker 3: didn't even know his son was a Unabomber, but he

576
00:33:15,350 --> 00:33:18,790
Speaker 3: was upset that he, you know, I guess he failed

577
00:33:18,830 --> 00:33:22,430
Speaker 3: his son or his son, this brilliant mathematician professor at Berkeley.

578
00:33:22,950 --> 00:33:24,610
Speaker 3: And he quits all that and goes and lives in

579
00:33:24,630 --> 00:33:27,890
Speaker 3: the woods like a hermit. And I think for whatever reason,

580
00:33:27,950 --> 00:33:31,290
Speaker 3: complicated reason, the father killed himself. Ted didn't even bother

581
00:33:31,330 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 3: going to the funeral. He didn't They got a letter

582
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 3: from his brother. He didn't call the family until like

583
00:33:36,820 --> 00:33:39,500
Speaker 3: two weeks afterwards. And they just said, hey, you have

584
00:33:39,540 --> 00:33:42,570
Speaker 3: insurance money from dad? Well, yes. Can you send that

585
00:33:42,610 --> 00:33:45,110
Speaker 3: to me? I need it. So here his mother sent

586
00:33:45,150 --> 00:33:47,690
Speaker 3: him some money, which he was then using to fund

587
00:33:48,050 --> 00:33:51,950
Speaker 3: his bus trips to San Francisco to plant more bombs

588
00:33:52,290 --> 00:33:54,540
Speaker 3: or mail more bombs at that time. So yeah, a

589
00:33:54,580 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 3: complicated personality sketch of this man. I mean, you can

590
00:33:59,100 --> 00:34:04,660
Speaker 3: argue complicated. They later, through various psych evals, you know, paranoid, schizophrenic, whatever.

591
00:34:04,700 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 3: But on top of all that or beneath all that,

592
00:34:08,540 --> 00:34:10,660
Speaker 3: however you want to phrase it, he was an incel.

593
00:34:11,140 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 3: And I just think highly frustrated. They did capture it well.

594
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 3: This movie now got it all confused and mixed up.

595
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 3: But in the real case, which Manhunt Unabomber covered well,

596
00:34:21,780 --> 00:34:25,069
Speaker 3: for the two years he was living in Chicago, he

597
00:34:25,110 --> 00:34:27,989
Speaker 3: left the cabin after six years, back to Chicago for

598
00:34:28,050 --> 00:34:31,009
Speaker 3: two years. And that's when the bombing started. He was

599
00:34:31,050 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 3: working at a company for his younger brother, David. David

600
00:34:34,219 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 3: was his boss, seven years younger. Ted has a PhD

601
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 3: in math, and he's doing very basic stuff at like

602
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 3: a foam cutting company or something. And he asked some

603
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 3: girl out, some woman out at the office. They meet

604
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,140
Speaker 3: for one night, make an apple pie. It seems he

605
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,109
Speaker 3: tries to kiss her, and she kind of, oh, no,

606
00:34:52,150 --> 00:34:54,910
Speaker 3: this is just a friendly thing, Ted. You know, they

607
00:34:54,930 --> 00:34:58,550
Speaker 3: were at her mother's house. And he got so upset

608
00:34:58,570 --> 00:35:00,630
Speaker 3: the next morning he got in early. And he put

609
00:35:00,650 --> 00:35:03,850
Speaker 3: all these like three inch by three inch post-its all

610
00:35:03,969 --> 00:35:07,509
Speaker 3: around the office, calling her all these names. Her name's

611
00:35:07,570 --> 00:35:10,669
Speaker 3: Ellen Tarmichael. She's a real person. She went public with this.

612
00:35:11,170 --> 00:35:13,910
Speaker 3: I look at her news conference sometimes the day after

613
00:35:13,950 --> 00:35:17,250
Speaker 3: he was arrested and she's thrust into the spotlight by

614
00:35:17,270 --> 00:35:19,989
Speaker 3: the media and says, yeah, I knew him for like

615
00:35:20,030 --> 00:35:22,529
Speaker 3: a couple of months. He worked in this office. We

616
00:35:22,550 --> 00:35:26,910
Speaker 3: went out once and made an apple pie and he

617
00:35:26,950 --> 00:35:29,969
Speaker 3: just couldn't resist himself and nothing happened. And he, you know,

618
00:35:30,010 --> 00:35:32,150
Speaker 3: she said, that's it. You know, we're just friends at work. Wow.

619
00:35:32,450 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 3: Friends with no benefits. And next thing you know, all

620
00:35:37,500 --> 00:35:40,140
Speaker 3: these post-its are over the place, you know, insulting her

621
00:35:40,580 --> 00:35:44,500
Speaker 3: body and her looks and other stuff. And David called

622
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,219
Speaker 3: him in. What have you done? This isn't just one

623
00:35:47,300 --> 00:35:50,049
Speaker 3: note you left at her desk. You can apologize. They're over. Ted,

624
00:35:50,260 --> 00:35:50,670
Speaker 3: I have to fire you.

625
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:52,110
Speaker 1: Trying to humiliate her, right?

626
00:35:52,150 --> 00:35:54,410
Speaker 3: Yeah. Ted, I have to fire you. Okay.

627
00:35:54,730 --> 00:35:55,350
Speaker 1: It's amazing.

628
00:35:55,450 --> 00:35:58,729
Speaker 2: You know, for all the things that, we've already talked

629
00:35:58,790 --> 00:36:02,549
Speaker 2: about that are inaccurate in the series. These sorts of

630
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 2: specifics that are so almost impossible to believe are covered

631
00:36:08,100 --> 00:36:12,660
Speaker 2: really accurately in the series. That is so disturbing. And

632
00:36:12,700 --> 00:36:16,739
Speaker 2: so Ted was obviously an extraordinarily intelligent man. So do

633
00:36:16,780 --> 00:36:20,420
Speaker 2: you think that his intelligence ultimately worked against him because

634
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 2: he became convinced that he was smarter than everybody else?

635
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 2: And certainly everyone trying to catch him?

636
00:36:27,010 --> 00:36:29,790
Speaker 3: In his case, it did, but I'm certainly not going

637
00:36:29,810 --> 00:36:33,950
Speaker 3: to denigrate intelligent people. We have a lot of very

638
00:36:34,010 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 3: intelligent people out there that are sending rockets to the

639
00:36:36,580 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 3: moon or other places or trying to electric cars, whether

640
00:36:39,620 --> 00:36:42,899
Speaker 3: you like politics or not. There are very brilliant people

641
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 3: out there that aren't going around killing other people or

642
00:36:45,420 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 3: putting notes all over the walls of some woman who

643
00:36:49,710 --> 00:36:54,469
Speaker 3: won't go even halfway to first base the night of

644
00:36:54,489 --> 00:37:00,660
Speaker 3: their Apple birthday. baking event. So, so I think it's

645
00:37:00,700 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 3: a combination of things with Ted. Probably going to Harvard

646
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 3: at 16 did not help him, but I'm sure his parents,

647
00:37:09,140 --> 00:37:12,049
Speaker 3: you know, working class parents in Chicago were so proud

648
00:37:12,070 --> 00:37:14,190
Speaker 3: of their young Ted and that he could, you know, get,

649
00:37:14,910 --> 00:37:17,310
Speaker 3: you know, that achievement at such an early age. I'm

650
00:37:17,330 --> 00:37:20,410
Speaker 3: certainly not going to blame the parents for pushing their

651
00:37:20,469 --> 00:37:23,370
Speaker 3: son academically. A lot of other parents have done that

652
00:37:23,410 --> 00:37:26,009
Speaker 3: over the years and continue to do so. So, people

653
00:37:26,030 --> 00:37:28,529
Speaker 3: will throw out the term perfect storm. It can apply

654
00:37:28,550 --> 00:37:36,069
Speaker 3: to a lot of different things, but I think, you know, psychologically, emotionally, environmentally, domestically,

655
00:37:36,090 --> 00:37:41,260
Speaker 3: you know, academically, all these things came together in many

656
00:37:41,300 --> 00:37:47,900
Speaker 3: ways on the negative side of their individual, you know, algorithms,

657
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 3: if you will. And it just hit a spot with

658
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,500
Speaker 3: a guy that just said, I just can't, you know,

659
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 3: I can't deal with this and I got to do

660
00:37:56,020 --> 00:37:59,219
Speaker 3: something about it. And it took him years. I mean,

661
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,460
Speaker 3: he was in 19, I think he was, you know,

662
00:38:03,060 --> 00:38:07,320
Speaker 3: about 30 when the bombing started in Chicago, living at home,

663
00:38:07,980 --> 00:38:10,580
Speaker 3: making his bombs in the attic in his parents' house

664
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 3: under there, right under their noses, which of course they

665
00:38:13,980 --> 00:38:17,489
Speaker 3: didn't know anything about it. And, and it just, he

666
00:38:17,530 --> 00:38:20,750
Speaker 3: just had to kill other people. He so resented academia that,

667
00:38:21,730 --> 00:38:25,890
Speaker 3: that they were his original targets. Because again, he got

668
00:38:25,930 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 3: hired at Berkeley, not a bad school, certainly academically back then,

669
00:38:31,900 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 3: on the tenure track for mathematics. And no one questioned

670
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,399
Speaker 3: his knowledge of the field of mathematics, but he just

671
00:38:40,420 --> 00:38:42,470
Speaker 3: didn't get along with his students. He didn't get along

672
00:38:42,489 --> 00:38:46,830
Speaker 3: with fellow faculty members. And whether he would have made

673
00:38:47,430 --> 00:38:50,810
Speaker 3: tenure or not, who knows, some of that is You know,

674
00:38:50,850 --> 00:38:53,180
Speaker 3: political is not just how much you know of your field.

675
00:38:53,700 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 3: You've got to be able to work with your fellow

676
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 3: academics and you've got to be able to get grant money,

677
00:38:58,420 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 3: things like that, and get good ratings from your students,

678
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:06,330
Speaker 3: things like that, too. So just a confused guy that

679
00:39:06,610 --> 00:39:10,550
Speaker 3: everything possibly in his brain that could go wrong, smart

680
00:39:10,590 --> 00:39:12,870
Speaker 3: enough to know how to make bombs. And that was

681
00:39:12,910 --> 00:39:14,469
Speaker 3: his recourse. Yeah.

682
00:39:14,489 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 2: So do you think he, as you said, he eventually

683
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 2: walked away from an academic career and modern society and

684
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 2: moves to this tiny cabin, but so without electricity or

685
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:26,910
Speaker 2: running water, to be clear. So do you think that

686
00:39:26,930 --> 00:39:29,950
Speaker 2: that was really about rejecting technology or was it about

687
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:31,060
Speaker 2: rejecting people?

688
00:39:32,180 --> 00:39:35,540
Speaker 3: Oh, definitely rejecting people. I mean, he did have a

689
00:39:35,580 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 3: transistor radio he kept in the cabin and he knew

690
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,739
Speaker 3: enough about batteries. You can argue batteries are advanced technology.

691
00:39:43,780 --> 00:39:48,310
Speaker 3: He would have those for his IEDs, his improvised explosive devices.

692
00:39:48,850 --> 00:39:51,850
Speaker 3: So yeah, he would cheat enough in the world of

693
00:39:51,989 --> 00:39:55,010
Speaker 3: technology to get by. But I will give him credit.

694
00:39:55,030 --> 00:39:57,770
Speaker 3: A lot of people talk about living off the grid. Nowadays,

695
00:39:57,810 --> 00:40:00,149
Speaker 3: that term wasn't really around back then. But he did

696
00:40:00,190 --> 00:40:02,550
Speaker 3: put his money where his mouth was, and he moved

697
00:40:02,969 --> 00:40:06,009
Speaker 3: to a hillside in the middle of Montana. And that

698
00:40:06,030 --> 00:40:08,010
Speaker 3: would have been fine. No one would have questioned anything then.

699
00:40:08,070 --> 00:40:10,660
Speaker 3: He could have written his journals and his documents, even

700
00:40:10,700 --> 00:40:18,410
Speaker 3: mailed them manifestos to the or at least be willing

701
00:40:18,450 --> 00:40:20,430
Speaker 3: to listen to him. But instead, he had to kill

702
00:40:20,450 --> 00:40:25,020
Speaker 3: people and representational targets that, you know, to some people

703
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,420
Speaker 3: to this day made really no sense. And again, he

704
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:34,540
Speaker 3: chose airlines. We knew they were representational targets, the earliest

705
00:40:34,940 --> 00:40:37,840
Speaker 3: profiles that John Douglas put together that I came along

706
00:40:38,420 --> 00:40:42,580
Speaker 3: and revamped and updated once the manifesto was received. And

707
00:40:43,100 --> 00:40:46,410
Speaker 3: he bombed airlines because as he wrote in his private

708
00:40:46,489 --> 00:40:49,589
Speaker 3: papers in his cabin, They were flying over his head

709
00:40:49,630 --> 00:40:54,029
Speaker 3: at 30,000 feet, leaving contrails. And if they were a

710
00:40:54,030 --> 00:40:56,210
Speaker 3: little bit lower, sometimes he thinks he could hear them.

711
00:40:57,110 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 3: He eventually went after a lumber, uh, forestry executive because

712
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,100
Speaker 3: he could hear a sawmill that opened up about a

713
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 3: mile from his cabin. I can hear the sawmill going,

714
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:08,879
Speaker 3: you know, in the middle of the day and that

715
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,989
Speaker 3: disturbed them. Universities just had to do with, he just

716
00:41:12,310 --> 00:41:16,570
Speaker 3: hated his university experience, everything that it entailed. And, uh,

717
00:41:17,550 --> 00:41:22,259
Speaker 3: And that's why those early bombs were to them also.

718
00:41:22,780 --> 00:41:25,779
Speaker 3: So then he expanded the computer stores, whatever. And you

719
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 3: think about it, here's a guy that got a mathematics

720
00:41:27,860 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 3: degree that back then, and if you watch the movie,

721
00:41:30,980 --> 00:41:32,240
Speaker 3: what's it called? A Beautiful Mind.

722
00:41:32,739 --> 00:41:33,020
Speaker 2: Yes.

723
00:41:33,340 --> 00:41:38,460
Speaker 3: Russell Crowe was in that, interestingly, coincidentally. Back then, mathematicians

724
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,900
Speaker 3: had to sit with a piece of paper or maybe

725
00:41:40,940 --> 00:41:44,450
Speaker 3: a blackboard, including windows they would write on, and to

726
00:41:44,489 --> 00:41:51,489
Speaker 3: figure out their advanced skills. mathematical formulae to figure out

727
00:41:51,510 --> 00:41:55,450
Speaker 3: these math problems. So here's this guy, he gets his

728
00:41:55,530 --> 00:42:00,860
Speaker 3: PhD in the mid-60s in mathematics, and within five to

729
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 3: ten years, there's these computers, they're giant, they're the size

730
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,319
Speaker 3: of a room perhaps, but they can figure out these

731
00:42:07,380 --> 00:42:10,989
Speaker 3: math problems back then in minutes, now it's seconds, that

732
00:42:11,010 --> 00:42:14,069
Speaker 3: it would take him weeks and months to figure out.

733
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:16,700
Speaker 3: And it had to be very upsetting to him.

734
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,090
Speaker 1: Yeah, like the fear of his own extinction, right?

735
00:42:20,110 --> 00:42:22,609
Speaker 3: That's right. But you think a lot of mathematicians around

736
00:42:22,630 --> 00:42:24,649
Speaker 3: that said, all right, I did a lot of hard

737
00:42:24,690 --> 00:42:27,110
Speaker 3: work getting my PhD, all this stuff. You know what?

738
00:42:27,150 --> 00:42:29,509
Speaker 3: It's a lot easier now. This gives me time. Then,

739
00:42:29,570 --> 00:42:32,410
Speaker 3: all right, I can figure out the formula and the results.

740
00:42:32,989 --> 00:42:34,810
Speaker 3: Now I have more time to figure out what to

741
00:42:34,850 --> 00:42:38,740
Speaker 3: do with it. Or maybe some other formula or some

742
00:42:38,940 --> 00:42:41,060
Speaker 3: quagmire that we can't figure out in the math world.

743
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:45,029
Speaker 3: So that's how a normal person, quote, unquote, would have

744
00:42:45,140 --> 00:42:48,899
Speaker 3: handled the advent of the computer world. But not Ted

745
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 3: Kaczynski with everything else mixed into his head and his

746
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 3: lack of social skills. Yeah. It just wasn't meant to

747
00:42:57,700 --> 00:42:58,770
Speaker 3: be for him. Right.

748
00:43:13,620 --> 00:43:18,029
Speaker 2: So the agents found bomb components, extensive writings, and a

749
00:43:18,070 --> 00:43:22,009
Speaker 2: completed bomb in the cabin. So after 17 years of

750
00:43:22,050 --> 00:43:25,810
Speaker 2: chasing someone who had managed to remain essentially invisible, what

751
00:43:25,850 --> 00:43:29,989
Speaker 2: was it like finally seeing the physical proof of the

752
00:43:30,030 --> 00:43:31,030
Speaker 2: life that he had been leading?

753
00:43:31,050 --> 00:43:34,970
Speaker 3: Yeah, there were a few people on the task force

754
00:43:35,170 --> 00:43:38,550
Speaker 3: that had spent almost 17 years chasing him down, a

755
00:43:38,590 --> 00:43:41,290
Speaker 3: few older guys. I guess I'm an older guy now,

756
00:43:41,370 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 3: but But I was brand new to the task force,

757
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,780
Speaker 3: getting there at the 17-year mark. And nine months later,

758
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,290
Speaker 3: we had the Unabomber in custody. It's a nice feeling

759
00:43:52,310 --> 00:43:54,530
Speaker 3: to know that I had some role in that, certainly

760
00:43:54,550 --> 00:43:59,489
Speaker 3: with the language analysis. Oh, it was a remarkable day.

761
00:43:59,590 --> 00:44:02,370
Speaker 3: I was back in headquarters, I should say in San

762
00:44:02,410 --> 00:44:06,630
Speaker 3: Francisco office, really doing the last minute details. Because as

763
00:44:06,670 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 3: I told you, CBS had a leak. that the Unabomber

764
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:15,540
Speaker 3: was living in Lincoln, Montana. And we had to get

765
00:44:15,580 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 3: some last minute things together. So I stayed back. Another

766
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,860
Speaker 3: team went to Montana. There had been some there already.

767
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 3: And they decided to make the arrest on April 3rd,

768
00:44:25,670 --> 00:44:27,630
Speaker 3: a few weeks before it was the original plan to

769
00:44:27,670 --> 00:44:30,470
Speaker 3: do so. But once, you know, the first thing, of course,

770
00:44:30,590 --> 00:44:33,610
Speaker 3: is safety and security of everyone involved, law enforcement, as

771
00:44:33,650 --> 00:44:36,690
Speaker 3: well as the Unabomber. And once we confirmed he's in handcuffs,

772
00:44:36,810 --> 00:44:41,540
Speaker 3: no injuries, great news. Then we had to wait about

773
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:45,259
Speaker 3: three days to render safe the cabin because we knew

774
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 3: this guy was a bomber and he could have easily

775
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:51,219
Speaker 3: hooked up booby traps, trip lines, anything like that. So

776
00:44:51,260 --> 00:44:53,020
Speaker 3: he was still sitting in some kind of a tent

777
00:44:53,060 --> 00:44:55,569
Speaker 3: they put up there, Mrs. Kaczynski. They kept him there

778
00:44:55,610 --> 00:44:58,890
Speaker 3: about three hours and they had a right to put

779
00:44:58,910 --> 00:45:02,530
Speaker 3: him in custody, even though just with a search warrant.

780
00:45:03,870 --> 00:45:06,370
Speaker 3: So he couldn't flee the scene, whatever. And it must

781
00:45:06,410 --> 00:45:09,250
Speaker 3: have killed him. We all agreed to watch the little robot.

782
00:45:09,870 --> 00:45:12,969
Speaker 3: climb up this little ramp to go inside his cabin

783
00:45:13,489 --> 00:45:15,580
Speaker 3: and then search. And it was an old fashioned robot

784
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,660
Speaker 3: with the calipers on it and, you know, but had

785
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 3: a camera and it could move things around. So if

786
00:45:20,219 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 3: it did triple wire, it wouldn't hurt a human. So

787
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:27,819
Speaker 3: that must've driven him nuts. And, um, uh, so, uh,

788
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,069
Speaker 3: but yeah, the agents were definitely happy with that. I

789
00:45:31,090 --> 00:45:34,669
Speaker 3: got to add this in here. I think the ending

790
00:45:34,710 --> 00:45:38,700
Speaker 3: of Manhunt Unabomber was fine. Uh, I made sure early

791
00:45:38,820 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 3: on I don't want Kaczynski being made into a hero.

792
00:45:42,820 --> 00:45:45,020
Speaker 3: You can show his life. Maybe he had some rough

793
00:45:45,060 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 3: patches in his life. We all do. But you don't

794
00:45:47,980 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 3: go out and kill people because of it. I'm sorry.

795
00:45:50,540 --> 00:45:52,819
Speaker 3: Maybe I'm old school that way, but that's me. And

796
00:45:52,860 --> 00:45:56,550
Speaker 3: they held true to that. Yes. This movie bothered me because,

797
00:45:58,290 --> 00:46:02,910
Speaker 3: as I kiddingly said, the Unabomber movie transitioned me without

798
00:46:02,950 --> 00:46:05,140
Speaker 3: even telling me they were doing it. It was a

799
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 3: female agent portraying me, Jim Fitzgerald, who of course changed

800
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 3: her name. And there's a number of things in there

801
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 3: that she is my character. I can tell that. The

802
00:46:14,180 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 3: linguistic part, she was shipped in, you know, near the

803
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:20,739
Speaker 3: end of the investigation. There's that part. But at the

804
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 3: very end of all the stuff they did, at the

805
00:46:22,620 --> 00:46:26,490
Speaker 3: very last scene with her, agent Joanne Miller was her name,

806
00:46:26,660 --> 00:46:29,890
Speaker 3: not a real agent. She's sitting at her desk after

807
00:46:29,930 --> 00:46:32,410
Speaker 3: some high fives for resting in the bottle. Here's a

808
00:46:32,450 --> 00:46:38,219
Speaker 3: tear coming down her face. Okay, I get literary license

809
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:43,580
Speaker 3: and it's the end of a culmination of a hard work. Okay, well,

810
00:46:43,660 --> 00:46:48,410
Speaker 3: Fitz didn't cry after we arrested a Unabomber. But worse

811
00:46:48,430 --> 00:46:52,009
Speaker 3: than that, the very next scene is real footage of

812
00:46:52,030 --> 00:46:55,650
Speaker 3: the real Ted Kaczynski. They don't cite it. I don't

813
00:46:55,690 --> 00:46:58,190
Speaker 3: know the proof of it, but they have a voiceover

814
00:46:58,250 --> 00:47:01,270
Speaker 3: of him looking into the camera in his prison cell

815
00:47:01,310 --> 00:47:05,469
Speaker 3: in the Supermax. And there's a voice saying, reading off,

816
00:47:07,050 --> 00:47:11,650
Speaker 3: there's a voice stating, hey, I'm paraphrasing here. Yeah, I

817
00:47:11,690 --> 00:47:14,730
Speaker 3: realize that people think I'm some kind of a role

818
00:47:14,770 --> 00:47:18,529
Speaker 3: model for them and their revolutionary causes. Well, if they're

819
00:47:18,550 --> 00:47:19,910
Speaker 3: going to get things done, if they're going to fight

820
00:47:19,950 --> 00:47:23,570
Speaker 3: this revolution, then use me and take care of it

821
00:47:23,660 --> 00:47:29,399
Speaker 3: by any means necessary. The end. Do we really need

822
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,700
Speaker 3: to put this message out to younger people today to

823
00:47:33,460 --> 00:47:36,470
Speaker 3: make him You can call him a hero or not.

824
00:47:36,510 --> 00:47:42,230
Speaker 3: And the whole unannoying focus on the Russell Crowe, Harvard scenes,

825
00:47:44,110 --> 00:47:46,029
Speaker 3: that can go either way. But they did not have

826
00:47:46,050 --> 00:47:48,650
Speaker 3: to put the actual Ted Kaczynski at the end. And

827
00:47:48,690 --> 00:47:52,230
Speaker 3: these people now that have issues with CEOs of insurance

828
00:47:52,290 --> 00:47:55,790
Speaker 3: companies or someone who goes on campuses and says stuff

829
00:47:55,830 --> 00:47:57,890
Speaker 3: they don't like, oh, okay, we can just kill them

830
00:47:57,930 --> 00:48:01,190
Speaker 3: by any means necessary. Sure. And I have a big

831
00:48:01,230 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 3: problem with that. We certainly didn't end. the Manhunt Unabomber

832
00:48:04,300 --> 00:48:07,540
Speaker 3: series that way, or my book. But I was very bothered.

833
00:48:08,140 --> 00:48:13,060
Speaker 3: The factual stuff, Unabomber got wrong on Netflix, whatever. A

834
00:48:13,100 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 3: woman betraying me, whatever. But those last two scenes really

835
00:48:16,180 --> 00:48:17,300
Speaker 3: bothered me. Right.

836
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:21,029
Speaker 1: It's somehow legitimizing what he's done.

837
00:48:21,070 --> 00:48:23,890
Speaker 2: Like it's such a clear, we talk about this a lot,

838
00:48:24,010 --> 00:48:28,609
Speaker 2: or I do, on this podcast that it's, you know,

839
00:48:29,070 --> 00:48:31,850
Speaker 2: dramatic license is one thing, but there's a very clear

840
00:48:31,950 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 2: line between exploiting someone's pain and or actions and doing

841
00:48:38,219 --> 00:48:42,670
Speaker 2: it as a sort of cautionary tale or helping to

842
00:48:42,730 --> 00:48:45,190
Speaker 2: explain the human experience.

843
00:48:45,730 --> 00:48:47,890
Speaker 1: But it's very clear. It's a fine line, but it's

844
00:48:47,930 --> 00:48:49,109
Speaker 1: very clear, I think.

845
00:48:49,690 --> 00:48:55,190
Speaker 2: So how, and to that end, warnings about technology today,

846
00:48:55,210 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 2: how do we... You know, there's something uncomfortable about hearing

847
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:05,550
Speaker 2: all of that today when we're living with smartphones, social media, algorithms, AI.

848
00:49:05,969 --> 00:49:09,270
Speaker 2: So how do we acknowledge that some of the questions

849
00:49:09,310 --> 00:49:13,129
Speaker 2: that he raised still resonate without turning a murderer into

850
00:49:13,170 --> 00:49:15,030
Speaker 2: some kind of a misunderstood prophet?

851
00:49:16,590 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's definitely misunderstood. I know. you just used the

852
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 3: term prophet, but I certainly wouldn't call him that. I

853
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:28,129
Speaker 3: think without the Unabomber, his manifesto or anything he ever

854
00:49:28,190 --> 00:49:31,690
Speaker 3: really borrowed, if not stole from others well before him,

855
00:49:33,330 --> 00:49:39,100
Speaker 3: I think we would still be asking questions about you know,

856
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:41,870
Speaker 3: certainly young children with, with cell phones and being glued

857
00:49:41,890 --> 00:49:43,830
Speaker 3: to them. And, you know, so many hours a day,

858
00:49:44,190 --> 00:49:48,690
Speaker 3: people not engaging with actual, in actual human interaction with

859
00:49:48,770 --> 00:49:52,330
Speaker 3: one another, as opposed to, you know, doing it digitally

860
00:49:52,390 --> 00:49:55,360
Speaker 3: on the phone. And I remember 20 years ago, walking

861
00:49:55,380 --> 00:49:58,280
Speaker 3: the coffee shops, maybe even a little restaurant or pub.

862
00:49:58,340 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 3: And there's like, like five, like college age students sitting

863
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:05,340
Speaker 3: around and they're all on their phones, not talking. And

864
00:50:05,660 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 3: I would kid around and maybe I knew one of

865
00:50:07,219 --> 00:50:11,029
Speaker 3: them or, Or afterwards, were you texting each other then? Or, oh, no,

866
00:50:11,050 --> 00:50:15,529
Speaker 3: it was other people. Okay, kind of weird. But that's,

867
00:50:15,989 --> 00:50:18,670
Speaker 3: I see some adults my age doing that now. I

868
00:50:18,710 --> 00:50:21,319
Speaker 3: really work hard to not do that myself. And my

869
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,140
Speaker 3: kids are older. I have grandkids. The phones go away

870
00:50:24,180 --> 00:50:26,279
Speaker 3: at dinnertime. They're going to be in my house. No

871
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:28,460
Speaker 3: phones at the table, at least for that 10 or

872
00:50:28,460 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 3: 15 minutes that we're eating. And that's certainly what we try.

873
00:50:32,620 --> 00:50:34,100
Speaker 3: If there's something you have to pick a kid up

874
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,430
Speaker 3: or someone's in the hospital, that's different. but for just,

875
00:50:36,489 --> 00:50:40,969
Speaker 3: you know, routine scrolling of sports scores or something like that.

876
00:50:41,969 --> 00:50:44,010
Speaker 3: And my kids, you know, I have grandkids now, and

877
00:50:44,330 --> 00:50:47,870
Speaker 3: my children are pretty good with their children. You know,

878
00:50:47,910 --> 00:50:50,460
Speaker 3: screen time is a half hour a day. That's it.

879
00:50:50,570 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 3: And mom knows and dad exactly what they're looking at.

880
00:50:53,300 --> 00:50:56,299
Speaker 3: I think my oldest is nine, finally has a, you know,

881
00:50:56,340 --> 00:50:59,100
Speaker 3: a fit watch, whatever, but it's highly restricted. It's like

882
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:00,660
Speaker 3: four people she can communicate with.

883
00:51:01,060 --> 00:51:03,819
Speaker 2: It's like a second career having to manage that stuff

884
00:51:03,860 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 2: as a parent, I can say personally.

885
00:51:06,300 --> 00:51:12,330
Speaker 1: But the diligence is important. I feel like it's life-saving.

886
00:51:12,469 --> 00:51:13,469
Speaker 1: It's mandatory.

887
00:51:13,950 --> 00:51:16,190
Speaker 3: And I think our own human nature and how we

888
00:51:16,210 --> 00:51:19,250
Speaker 3: were raised, how your parents were raised, we didn't need

889
00:51:19,290 --> 00:51:22,109
Speaker 3: a Unabomber or a Ted Kaczynski to tell us that.

890
00:51:22,650 --> 00:51:24,509
Speaker 3: If he happened to be that broken clock a few

891
00:51:24,570 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 3: times in his manifesto, fine. But he borrowed those– He

892
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:35,750
Speaker 3: borrowed those artifacts, if you will, from others before him. Right.

893
00:51:35,950 --> 00:51:38,569
Speaker 3: And others maybe take them from others even before. Think

894
00:51:38,590 --> 00:51:41,110
Speaker 3: back to the Middle Ages and people who thought the

895
00:51:41,150 --> 00:51:43,870
Speaker 3: sun wasn't the center of the universe and how they

896
00:51:43,890 --> 00:51:47,509
Speaker 3: were criticized, things like that. So, yeah. So it's a

897
00:51:47,530 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 3: complicated world, but it really isn't. And I like where

898
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 3: some of these countries, I think Australia, maybe a few others,

899
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 3: have at least said no social media for anyone under 16. Yep.

900
00:51:59,140 --> 00:52:02,270
Speaker 3: Enforcing that. Easier said than done. I get it. But

901
00:52:02,310 --> 00:52:05,130
Speaker 3: when the parents have to say, hey, it's against the law,

902
00:52:05,170 --> 00:52:08,110
Speaker 3: little Johnny. No, you're not having a phone. We'll give

903
00:52:08,130 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 3: you a flip phone. We'll blame the government. Let them

904
00:52:10,219 --> 00:52:12,800
Speaker 3: be the bad guys. We also agree with this at

905
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:16,800
Speaker 3: the same time. So if, yeah, I'm not going to

906
00:52:16,820 --> 00:52:18,419
Speaker 3: give the Unabomber any credit for that. I think anyone

907
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 3: with common sense would also realize that. Right.

908
00:52:21,930 --> 00:52:25,850
Speaker 2: Well, James, this has been so fascinating. I honestly could

909
00:52:25,910 --> 00:52:29,810
Speaker 2: talk to you for many hours. The Manhunt Unabomber is

910
00:52:29,850 --> 00:52:34,450
Speaker 2: streaming online. And James, thank you so, so much for

911
00:52:34,570 --> 00:52:35,510
Speaker 2: talking with me today.

912
00:52:35,910 --> 00:52:37,950
Speaker 3: You are very welcome, Lisa. And you have a great

913
00:52:37,989 --> 00:52:39,810
Speaker 3: rest of your day. And thanks for inviting me on

914
00:52:40,130 --> 00:52:41,550
Speaker 3: Killer Thriller Podcast.

915
00:52:42,110 --> 00:52:42,589
Speaker 1: Thank you.