WEBVTT - Migrant Detention in Libya 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:04.920 Also media. 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:07.040 Hi everyone, and welcome to the podcast. 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:09.360 It's me James today and I am lucky to be 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:12.520 joined again by Mick. We're going to talk today about Libya, 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:16.480 and just like right off the top, this is going 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:20.919 to be a sad episode. Not much good happens to 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:23.680 migrants in Libya. A lot of bad stuff happens. And 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:26.520 if you someone who prefers not to hear about like 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:32.559 violence or sexual violence or incarceration, it's probably some other 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:35.800 stuff I'm overlooking. This might not be the episode for you, 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:36.600 and that's fine. 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:37.760 But Mick, how you doing. 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:40.680 Hi James, I'm goods. I'm goods. 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:43.280 That was an uplifting intro, wasn't it. I felt like 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:45.640 that was a really positive way to start the show. 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:51.199 Yes, definitely, definitely, but probably very warranted because it's not 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.720 going to be a fun episode. Like, there's torture, there's imprisonments, 0:00:54.840 --> 0:01:00.000 there's some slave months. It's horrible. Yeah, Libya is probably 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:02.560 one of the worst countries in the world to be 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:05.280 a migrant at the moment, if not the worst. 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:08.600 Yeah, I and you have a whole industry, a whole 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:14.520 part of their economy that is predicated on enslaving migrants. 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:18.520 Lately selling people and all of the other kinds of 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:19.600 violence that come from that. 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:20.759 Exactly. 0:01:20.840 --> 0:01:25.000 There's I think over twenty or thirty different facilities with 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:30.800 varying degrees of government involvement in those facilities, and it's 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:34.200 very hard to pinpoint exactly like where does the government 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:40.440 and where does this human trafficking business begin? Right, It's 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:44.080 similar to like early mid Soviet Union, where there was 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:47.520 so much organized crime happening within the government that it 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:50.800 was also impossible to distinguish, like where one began and 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:51.760 where the other ended. 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:54.800 Yeah, like which was which exactly. 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:58.320 It was under breast nev I think, but don't don't 0:01:58.400 --> 0:01:58.960 quote me on that. 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:02.920 Yeah, so yeah, so give us a lad only. 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:05.240 Well, first of all, maybe I guess if people have 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:08.000 been not listening, why are we talking about Libya? 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:12.400 Well, on May eighth, that was reported that the Trump 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:16.960 administration was considering sporting migrants to this North African country, 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:20.480 which is a new low. Yeah, like the bar is 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:25.720 buried and these motherfuckers just grabbed the shovel. I don't 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:29.320 think it's possible to exaggerate just how cruel this would 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:31.880 be if it were to happen. As I said earlier, 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:35.240 Libya is probably the worst country in the world to 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:38.600 be a migrant at the moment. And to illustrate that, 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:41.760 I'm going to briefly quote from this twenty twenty two 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:45.800 and it's the International article Men, women and children returned 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:49.680 to Libya returned in this case meaning that they tried 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:52.760 to cross the Mediterranean and were picked up by the 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:57.799 Libyan coast guards. Returned to Libya face arbitrary detention, torture, 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:03.880 cruel and inhumane detension conditions, rape and sexual violence, extortion, 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:08.880 forced labor, and unlawful killings. Instead of addressing this human 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:12.760 rights crisis, the Libyan Government of National Unity now called 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:18.919 the GMU, continues to facilitate further abuses entrench impunity, as 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:22.880 illustrated by its recent appointment of Mohammed al Koha as 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:27.400 Director of the Department for Combating Illegal Migration, which we 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:30.640 will be referring to as the DCIM from now on. 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:34.720 To make that entire list. Somehow worse, there has been 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:39.000 extensive documentation from human rights groups that strongly suggest that 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:43.360 the DCIM works together with non governmental militias, making the 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:49.200 latter responsible for at least six unofficial detention centers. Although 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:51.400 it is reasonable to assume that there might be more. 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:57.520 So reporting out of Libya is hard to understate it. Yes, 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:00.520 Sally Hayden has an excellent book called My Fourth Time 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:03.160 We Drowned that Like, one of the things I like 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:07.240 about it is it explains like her journalistic process, and 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:10.120 it's people who are detained in places where they can't 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:14.480 get out clubbing together to get one message out on 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:17.720 the one phone that one person smuggled in in part right, 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:20.920 use someone had the battery, someone had the screen or whatever, 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:24.960 and someone else had a SIM card and like that 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:27.160 way they could they could get a message out. But 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:30.120 it's everything that we hear about. We can assume that 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:32.400 there is probably a lot more of it happening that 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:34.880 we haven't heard about, or at least some more of 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:36.520 it happening that we haven't heard about. 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:40.119 Yeah, the worst part about this is that it's knowing 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:44.440 that it's probably worse and it's probably more extensive than 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:47.000 we know. Because Yeah, as you said, Livia is a 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:51.520 hard country to do this kind of reporting, and I 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:54.360 am assuming that it's not very safe for a journalists 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:57.440 to just go there and go talk to people. 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:00.800 Yeah, Yeah, And like at the end of the day, 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:03.360 you're not just as I'm sure you'll explain, You're not 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:06.800 just fucking with the Libyan government. You're fucking with the 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:12.440 European Union is absolutely complicit in this and like they 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:13.479 ain't coming to save you. 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:16.560 We'll get to that how work. The EU is complicited 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:21.080 in both funding and in actions. Yeah, so let's first 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:23.680 get this onto the proper context. We're going to dive 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:26.520 for bits into the history of Libya because that plays 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:29.679 a major part in how this situation is right now. 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:34.560 So we'll start by talking about the former dictator Muamar Kadaffi. 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:38.920 He took control of Libya through a military kudetta and 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:42.320 ruled it from nineteen sixty nine up until he faced 0:05:42.360 --> 0:05:45.359 mob justice in the Libyan Civil War in twenty eleven. 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:50.000 He is or was accused of human rights violations and 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:54.000 cracking down heart on this scent and opposition. Initially was 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:57.480 on the list of states which sponsored terrorism, but from 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.280 two thousand and four onwards he slowly began can to 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:03.479 rekindle ties with a number of countries, with one of 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:07.720 the main champions for rehabilitation being Italy, the former colonial 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:11.160 power that had occupied Libya. To no one's surprised we're 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:15.040 bringing in colonialism here. Now, James, you get three guesses 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:19.159 as to what one of the cooperations was between Libya 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:19.880 and Italy. 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:23.560 Well, I can get many things. Ray, there's some stories 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:28.240 about good Affi and Berlusconi, but we won't talk about this. 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:32.000 Was it preventing migrant crossing the Mediterranean Sea? 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:34.120 Yes, that is true. 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:36.960 Yeah, something the Italians love to do. 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:40.400 It was happening back then as well. Yeah, it's a 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:44.560 really weird relationship between Italy and Libya. That's also kind 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:47.680 of fascinating. But then we're going to get all the 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:49.400 way off topic if we dive into that. 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:50.640 Yeah. 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:54.960 So, somewhere between two thousand and four and two thousand 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:57.960 and five, Libya was supplied with money and equipment to 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:02.200 help stem the flow of illegal migration coming from Africa. 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:05.719 Kadaffi himself said in twenty ten that this was to 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:09.200 prevent the loss of European cultural identity to a new 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:13.520 black Europa, after Libya was paid fifty million euro for 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:14.960 this purpose that same year. 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:18.480 Yeah, yeah, based anti colonial Yes, I'm sure that's a 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:21.400 Gadaffi did nothing wrong movement that exists on some corner 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:24.440 of Reddit that I haven't Oh, got that plumitted into yet, 0:07:24.480 --> 0:07:26.200 but yeah, this guy was a third. 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:28.560 I cannot find a stick long enough that I would 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:32.840 touch that community with, to be honest. That's also something 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:34.360 that plays in here, and that I think, like you 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:37.440 read a lot of human rights reports, you come across it. 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:40.320 But there's also like a distinct form of racism for 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:44.120 Sub Saharan or like Eastern African people. Definitely, Yeah, that's 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:48.320 also going to play into this. It's just a smorgas 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:49.480 board of bad stuff. 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:52.720 Yeah, I mean for people who perhaps grew up in 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:54.679 the United States, you know for their were and received 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:58.080 verio education in school about African geography and politics like 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:01.400 this can be hard to grasp, right, Like Africa is 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:05.640 sometimes perceived as a country, not a continent in sort 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:08.880 of discourse in the United States. And that's again like 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:11.360 it's not people's fault, like it's it's in nature of 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:15.680 our education system failing people. But yeah, if you're not familiar, 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:18.400 rarely view it's called in North Africa, and like great 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:24.760 replacement style racist conspiracies absolutely exist in North Africa about 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:28.120 people from Sub Saharan Africa. Either that the parts of 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:30.240 Africa that are beneath the Sahara desert and in the 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:32.960 which you could find by looking at them that. But 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:36.040 yet like just because this is in Africa, like racist 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:37.920 shit is absolutely going down. No. 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:40.960 I think it was highlighted a bit when the president 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:44.880 or Prime Minister of Tunisia was cracking down on migration 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:48.720 that there was also like a very distinct racism against 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:50.480 against sub Saharan Africans. 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:53.360 Yeah, but it is. 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:56.320 It's a global thing where because racist is a social 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:59.679 construct and it's not like an inherent thing that that 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:03.040 You'll hear this a lot. You know, I've worked in 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:06.600 Hispaniola a lot, Right, the island that contains hating Dominican Republic, 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:09.200 the island which receives millions of dollars from the United 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:13.320 States to reinforce the border between the two nations that 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:18.160 make it up. You will hear this reference to Haitian 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:22.240 people as black from Afro Caribbean Dominican people, right, And 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:25.960 this idea that there's this racial distinction between the two, 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:28.880 that it's a nature of race, right, it's quite social 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:31.360 construct between mobilized to create a power dynamic. 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:35.800 Yeah, that's a whole other topic of discussion, because I 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:40.600 identity and race are so intermingled but also so fluid. Yeah, 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:43.440 you could talk for hours about it, but that's not 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:46.520 why we're here. Yeah, a warming up ties with Libya 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:49.800 was a pragmatic approach from the EU, as it lies 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:53.439 just on the doorstep of Fortress Europe, but also marked 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:57.400 the start of set fortress to start externalizing its borders 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:01.720 into Africa, slowly working towards ki migrants and refugees from 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:05.160 setting food on European soil, which would entitle them to 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:10.200 apply for asylum. So even that step that's encoded in 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:14.079 European law, we're trying to like circumvent by just making 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:16.000 sure that they don't cross the Mediterranean. 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:16.320 Right. 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:19.640 So sometime later, when the civil war began during the 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:23.000 Art Spring, Yeah, Libyan dissidents got rid of the sex 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:26.839 best that was more mar Kadaffi. So the world became 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:30.319 a slightly better place after that. Currently, there are two 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.679 major factions fighting over power in Libya, although there are 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:37.760 numerous other groups involved. To dive into this would probably 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:39.640 take up most of the episodes, so I will leave 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:42.800 that aside. Yeah, the first of the major factions is 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:46.680 the GNU, the Government of National Unity, led by Prime 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:51.280 Minister Abdul Ahmit de Deba even fills the north west 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:54.679 of Libya, including the capital Tripoli. The other faction is 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:59.080 led by US Libyan national Khalifa Hafta, who commands the 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:03.400 Libyan National Army or LNA, who expressed loyalty to the 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:06.480 elected governments and are therefore often referred to as the 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:10.680 ho R the House of Represented Sentatives. I will try 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:15.760 to be consistent with the sacronyms, but no guarantees. Unsurprisingly, 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:19.200 after I was mentioned in accusations made in twenty three 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:23.079 for his militia's treatment of migrants, with some reports indicating 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:27.280 that they or he may be profiting of the smuggling SAM. 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.280 We pretty much got a warlord over there with an 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:36.240 army at his disposal who's not disincentivized not treat migrants 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:38.520 as things for his own profit. 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:39.880 Yeah right. 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:43.360 Another fun fact that reveals how absolutely fucked up the 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:48.240 situation is the capture and subsequent release of infamous warlord 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:53.760 Osama Ala Mustri by Italy. Almasri had outstanding of warrants 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:57.040 from the International Criminal Court due to him having the 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:01.360 TRIPLEI branch of detention centers backed by the Special Defense Force, 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:04.560 both of which are used of atrocities and war crimes 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:07.520 during the Civil War. He was captured in Turin after 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:11.720 a soccer match. The ICC requested he be arrested, but 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:14.920 they turn based tribunal declined to approve the prove it, 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:18.840 after which Almasriios res niece back into Libya Jesus. 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:20.880 So yeah, right, we. 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:24.040 Love our ICC and then not following through on it. 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.240 Yeah, right, Like the ic C does not in fact 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:29.000 have an army that it can send out to people 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:30.160 who completely ignore it. 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:32.760 Yeah, it's a body that doesn't have any power to 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:36.600 really enforce decisions. I know that the current Dutch Prime 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:39.960 Minister said of Benjaminett and Yahoo that they could just 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:44.080 ignore the outstanding warrant for his arrest, that Yao could 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:48.840 just visit the Netherlands, which, like, I don't even know 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:49.880 what to say about that. 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:52.560 Yeah, I mean, this is the nature of what you're 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:56.000 talking about in an extent, right, like the ICC's rulings 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:58.680 and all human rights only exist insofar as they are 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:01.199 convenient to the powerfuls as in the world. 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:03.520 It's very much a rules for d but not for 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:05.160 me kind of attitudes. 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:06.080 Yeah, exactly. 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:10.480 Yeah, I find it extremely disheartening and I feel myself 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:13.839 growing more cynical because of this world that I grew 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:17.040 up in, and I'm slowly seeing that all the rules 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:18.560 and all the great things that I was taught in 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:22.080 school are kind of not rules but more like guidelines. 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:24.360 Yeah, yeah, and that only applied to certain people. 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:28.320 It's really heartbreaking to see, Like I mean, I've heard 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:30.960 it a lot from people, right, but especially from Burmese people. 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:34.800 They really educated themselves an international law when they were 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:36.640 going out to protest. At first, they talk about the 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:41.240 r twop, like the responsibility to protect, which is it 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:44.600 doesn't matter to concept in international law, but I've allowed 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:48.640 someone to intervene, and like they thought, this is the 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:51.640 international law, it's the world law, so someone's going to 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:54.920 do it, and like no, you know, over the months 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:57.040 that they were in the streets, over the thousands of 0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:01.400 deaths that they've seen, now they've come to realize that 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:04.320 that law isn't there to protect them, that there's no 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:06.440 one who's coming to save them, and that's led to 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:09.520 them building a very unique and beautiful revolution. But at 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:12.400 the same time, it costs thousands of innocent lives, and 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:17.440 it's heartbreaking to see their faith being misplaced in this institution. 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:18.400 It doesn't care about it. 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:21.040 We can talk very high and mighty about all these 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:25.600 laws and whether in war or whether about refugees, but 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:29.080 in the end, very often they just seem worth as 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:32.040 much as the paper they're written on. Yeah, exactly, It's 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:34.320 okay to become cynical after that realization. 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:35.040 Yeah. 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:40.120 So, while the conditions for migrants were getting noticeably more 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:43.800 horrible in the aftermath of the twenty eleven intervention by NATO, 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:46.800 it was, as we said earlier, by no means the 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:50.800 start could definitely very much used migration as leverage to 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:55.320 gain concessions and standing among European governmental bodies. Exploitation of 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:58.480 migrants was already reported by human rights ruts back in 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:01.520 two thousand and nine. A similar vein the fact that 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.720 the Libyan Coast Guard routinely picks up migrants in the 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:08.400 international waters to return them to Libya has also been 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:12.120 documented as early as two thousand and nine. How Frontex 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:15.240 is involved with that will get to that later. These 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.640 processes and dynamics were very much already in play prior 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:23.200 to Cadelphie meeting his maker. This kidnapping of migrants, because 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:26.080 I don't think there's a better or a harsher word 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:30.480 for it is an explicit violation of international European and 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:36.200 Italian law. Non refolment, which is the principle in these laws, 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:40.160 means that no refugee shall be returned or expelled to 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:43.680 a territory against their will where their freedoms and life 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:49.360 are threatened. From January first, twenty nineteen to June thirtieth, 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:54.520 twenty twenty, Libya received sixty one point six million euros 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:59.800 as part of the European Union Integrated Border Management Assistance 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:04.960 Mission Mandate, with an explicit focus on establishing state security 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:07.880 structures in the country. Funding is meant to help stem 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:12.040 migration to Europe through strengthening the border management, law enforcement, 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.720 and criminal justice systems of Libya. Emphasis is placed on 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:19.320 disrupting the networks that operate the smuggling and trafficking of persons. 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:26.920 We already discussed these institutions are directly or indirectly contributing 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:32.240 very often to the exploitation and enslavement of refugees. So 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:35.880 that's sixty one million euros that has indirectly gone through 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:39.360 those very systems that enslave and torture people. 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:40.360 Yeah. 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:43.880 So when many liberal authorities often have direct links to 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:47.760 militias or organized crime groups that engage in these practices. 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:51.640 Authorities in the Ministry of Defense, the Ministry of Interior, 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:55.640 the Department to Combat Irregular Migration, the Libyan Coast Guard, 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:59.600 and the Special Deterrence Force has all been implicated. It 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:01.880 has got so bad that even the Ministry of Defense 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:05.080 employs Coast Guard units that are made up of militias 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:07.920 who profit from these human rights abuses. 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:11.400 Yeah, it's fastical to think that like you could throw 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:14.600 some money at this problem and not just like more 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:15.720 empower these people. 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:20.000 Yes, it's even I think when we talked last year 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:23.280 about this, I think Rows from Migrant mentioned it. But 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:26.560 the Libyans get paid twice because first they get paid 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:30.639 to make sure that to return these migrants back to Libya, 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:33.440 but then they can also get paid for selling them 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:34.360 into slavery. 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:36.720 Do you what do you even say to that? 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:39.399 Yeah, I think it's genuinely unfavorable for a lot of 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:42.040 people than twenty twenty five. People are absolutely being captured 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:44.680 and sold into slavery. That is occurring. 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:48.480 Yes, I've read some Human Rights Watch accounts of people 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:52.240 who were imprisoned for sometimes in years and then made 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:55.880 to work in one way or another for whoever ran 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:59.720 that particular detention center and the one that I'm thinking 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:02.879 of right now, after six years, I think that person 0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:08.240 was able to buy himself away from the authorities than 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:13.120 his boat was captured within thirty minutes after he got 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:16.440 off the boat, Libya got back to a different attention 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:19.040 center where he spent four days, and I think after 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:22.760 that he got another chance on the boat, and I 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:26.200 think he was rescued by the volunteer or human rights 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:30.200 organizations who are also patrolling the sea north of Libya. 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:33.760 Yeah, we interviewed some of them talking of patrolling the seas. 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:36.720 Maybe this is an advert for a boat. 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:39.960 Yes, there will be a front TACs ad right now 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:41.520 for all the European listeners. 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:54.200 Yeah, yeah, all right, we are back. 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:57.199 So we left off with just briefly mentioning how the 0:18:57.240 --> 0:19:00.800 Libyan state functions as part of this more than organized 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:04.479 crime syndicateive profits from the abuse of innocent people. And 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:07.399 this is in a way not really surprising. Back in 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:11.960 eighty five, academic Charles Tilly already argued that the states 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:16.359 as a form of social organization, it's pretty much indistinguishable 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:19.919 from an organized crime group. Yeah, I'll make sure that 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.480 the sources in the description below if anyone is interested, 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:25.159 But for those who don't want to read it, in 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:28.639 very short, they're both major organizations over which you have 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:31.119 very little control, and if you don't pay them the 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:34.600 taxes or protection money that they want, then people will 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:37.960 show up to break your legs. That's the two sentence 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:39.560 explanation of that article. 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:40.480 Yeah, I like that. 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:45.400 After the principle of non refoulment has been violated, refugees 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:49.160 are brought to detention centers in theory under the supervision 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:53.120 of the DCIM. In practice, this does not hold up. 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:56.560 There are no official or verified numbers of how many 0:19:56.600 --> 0:19:59.840 centers there are or how many people are even health captive. 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:04.560 They Libyan numbers just somewhere between seventeen to thirty five 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:08.760 facilities holding over seven thousand people. Human rights groups have 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:11.520 questions these numbers and argued that the number is likely 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:15.479 between ten thousand and twenty thousand people being held captive. 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.679 The reality is that we simply don't know. Yeah, we 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:22.560 don't know exactly how many cent facilities there are to 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:24.560 hold these people, and we don't know how many people 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:29.680 are in them. Human rights watchers or UN delegates often 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:32.240 don't get the full picture even if they go there 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:37.200 to visit and inspect the places. There was one part 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:39.720 of what I read where they would only be allowed 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:43.120 during the day, but then at night is when most 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:46.600 of the horrible stuff happens. Yeah, So still there's very 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:50.080 much a process of trying to not show what is 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:53.680 being done there. People in these detention centers are held 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:58.360 indefinitely and lack any sort of legal processes or procedures 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:02.840 to determine their state. In fact, according to a twenty 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:07.080 nineteen RUN report, there is no official procedure to assess 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:11.160 asylum status in Libya, meaning that in the legal sense, 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:13.240 this category is absolutely meaningless. 0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:13.600 Yeah. 0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:15.720 On top of that, there's also a lack of a 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:20.400 process for exiting entertainment, so that that's an entire procedure 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:22.919 that is just done at the whim of whoever happens 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:25.480 to control like that particular facility. 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:28.159 Yeah, and that could be someone who has just like 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:33.040 seized it by arms from whoever controlled it last, right, exactly. 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:36.600 There's sometimes facilities are abandoned and they can become official. 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:40.960 There's also been reports of the government rating like unofficial centers, 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:44.840 but then recapturing those people and put them in official centers. 0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:46.520 Great, that'll make it better. 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:50.040 It would be funny if it wasn't so fucking horrible. 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:52.639 Yeah, yeah, that's bleak. 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:57.159 The DCM closed down five centers that had a history 0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:01.040 of human rights violations. This act, however, had little effect 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:05.960 on halting abuses. Reports of beatings and torture continued as 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:10.000 some official centers closed by the DCIM quickly became unofficial 0:22:10.040 --> 0:22:15.800 sites reopened and operated by militias. For example, the Buisa 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:20.280 official Attention Center in Saweya was ordered to close due 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:23.520 to reports of sexual abuse taking place. He reopened a 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:27.040 day later and operated under a new name managed by 0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:31.960 armed groups. Dtaee explanation was seamlessly transferred from official to 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:36.200 unofficial banners, helping empower militants and criminal actors in the region. 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:39.520 So we're now going to take a deeper look at 0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:44.560 these centers. I found an amazing article by Nadia aldayon 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:50.879 Aaron Anfinson and Graham Anfinson in there, and James that 0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:55.360 this Israel the Journal of Human Trafficking, which is an 0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:57.560 actual academic journal that exists. 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:00.639 Jesus, Yeah, I mean, I guess, yeah. If there's the 0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:03.879 thing someone has written their PhD. This station about it, 0:23:03.880 --> 0:23:04.520