1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Also media. 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 2: Hi everyone, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 3: It's me James today and I am lucky to be 4 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 3: joined again by Mick. We're going to talk today about Libya, 5 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 3: and just like right off the top, this is going 6 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 3: to be a sad episode. Not much good happens to 7 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 3: migrants in Libya. A lot of bad stuff happens. And 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 3: if you someone who prefers not to hear about like 9 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 3: violence or sexual violence or incarceration, it's probably some other 10 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 3: stuff I'm overlooking. This might not be the episode for you, 11 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 3: and that's fine. 12 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 2: But Mick, how you doing. 13 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 4: Hi James, I'm goods. I'm goods. 14 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 3: That was an uplifting intro, wasn't it. I felt like 15 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 3: that was a really positive way to start the show. 16 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 4: Yes, definitely, definitely, but probably very warranted because it's not 17 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 4: going to be a fun episode. Like, there's torture, there's imprisonments, 18 00:00:54,840 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 4: there's some slave months. It's horrible. Yeah, Libya is probably 19 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 4: one of the worst countries in the world to be 20 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 4: a migrant at the moment, if not the worst. 21 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I and you have a whole industry, a whole 22 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 3: part of their economy that is predicated on enslaving migrants. 23 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 3: Lately selling people and all of the other kinds of 24 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 3: violence that come from that. 25 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:20,759 Speaker 2: Exactly. 26 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 4: There's I think over twenty or thirty different facilities with 27 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 4: varying degrees of government involvement in those facilities, and it's 28 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 4: very hard to pinpoint exactly like where does the government 29 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 4: and where does this human trafficking business begin? Right, It's 30 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 4: similar to like early mid Soviet Union, where there was 31 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 4: so much organized crime happening within the government that it 32 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 4: was also impossible to distinguish, like where one began and 33 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 4: where the other ended. 34 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, like which was which exactly. 35 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 4: It was under breast nev I think, but don't don't 36 00:01:58,400 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 4: quote me on that. 37 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, so give us a lad only. 38 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, maybe I guess if people have 39 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 3: been not listening, why are we talking about Libya? 40 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 4: Well, on May eighth, that was reported that the Trump 41 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 4: administration was considering sporting migrants to this North African country, 42 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 4: which is a new low. Yeah, like the bar is 43 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 4: buried and these motherfuckers just grabbed the shovel. I don't 44 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 4: think it's possible to exaggerate just how cruel this would 45 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 4: be if it were to happen. As I said earlier, 46 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 4: Libya is probably the worst country in the world to 47 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 4: be a migrant at the moment. And to illustrate that, 48 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 4: I'm going to briefly quote from this twenty twenty two 49 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 4: and it's the International article Men, women and children returned 50 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 4: to Libya returned in this case meaning that they tried 51 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 4: to cross the Mediterranean and were picked up by the 52 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 4: Libyan coast guards. Returned to Libya face arbitrary detention, torture, 53 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 4: cruel and inhumane detension conditions, rape and sexual violence, extortion, 54 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 4: forced labor, and unlawful killings. Instead of addressing this human 55 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 4: rights crisis, the Libyan Government of National Unity now called 56 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 4: the GMU, continues to facilitate further abuses entrench impunity, as 57 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 4: illustrated by its recent appointment of Mohammed al Koha as 58 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 4: Director of the Department for Combating Illegal Migration, which we 59 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 4: will be referring to as the DCIM from now on. 60 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 4: To make that entire list. Somehow worse, there has been 61 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 4: extensive documentation from human rights groups that strongly suggest that 62 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 4: the DCIM works together with non governmental militias, making the 63 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 4: latter responsible for at least six unofficial detention centers. Although 64 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 4: it is reasonable to assume that there might be more. 65 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 3: So reporting out of Libya is hard to understate it. Yes, 66 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 3: Sally Hayden has an excellent book called My Fourth Time 67 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 3: We Drowned that Like, one of the things I like 68 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 3: about it is it explains like her journalistic process, and 69 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 3: it's people who are detained in places where they can't 70 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 3: get out clubbing together to get one message out on 71 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 3: the one phone that one person smuggled in in part right, 72 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 3: use someone had the battery, someone had the screen or whatever, 73 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 3: and someone else had a SIM card and like that 74 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 3: way they could they could get a message out. But 75 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 3: it's everything that we hear about. We can assume that 76 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 3: there is probably a lot more of it happening that 77 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 3: we haven't heard about, or at least some more of 78 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 3: it happening that we haven't heard about. 79 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,119 Speaker 4: Yeah, the worst part about this is that it's knowing 80 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 4: that it's probably worse and it's probably more extensive than 81 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 4: we know. Because Yeah, as you said, Livia is a 82 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 4: hard country to do this kind of reporting, and I 83 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 4: am assuming that it's not very safe for a journalists 84 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 4: to just go there and go talk to people. 85 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, And like at the end of the day, 86 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 3: you're not just as I'm sure you'll explain, You're not 87 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 3: just fucking with the Libyan government. You're fucking with the 88 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 3: European Union is absolutely complicit in this and like they 89 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 3: ain't coming to save you. 90 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 4: We'll get to that how work. The EU is complicited 91 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 4: in both funding and in actions. Yeah, so let's first 92 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 4: get this onto the proper context. We're going to dive 93 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 4: for bits into the history of Libya because that plays 94 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,679 Speaker 4: a major part in how this situation is right now. 95 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 4: So we'll start by talking about the former dictator Muamar Kadaffi. 96 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 4: He took control of Libya through a military kudetta and 97 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 4: ruled it from nineteen sixty nine up until he faced 98 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 4: mob justice in the Libyan Civil War in twenty eleven. 99 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 4: He is or was accused of human rights violations and 100 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 4: cracking down heart on this scent and opposition. Initially was 101 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 4: on the list of states which sponsored terrorism, but from 102 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 4: two thousand and four onwards he slowly began can to 103 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 4: rekindle ties with a number of countries, with one of 104 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 4: the main champions for rehabilitation being Italy, the former colonial 105 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 4: power that had occupied Libya. To no one's surprised we're 106 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 4: bringing in colonialism here. Now, James, you get three guesses 107 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 4: as to what one of the cooperations was between Libya 108 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:19,880 Speaker 4: and Italy. 109 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 3: Well, I can get many things. Ray, there's some stories 110 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 3: about good Affi and Berlusconi, but we won't talk about this. 111 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 3: Was it preventing migrant crossing the Mediterranean Sea? 112 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 2: Yes, that is true. 113 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, something the Italians love to do. 114 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 4: It was happening back then as well. Yeah, it's a 115 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 4: really weird relationship between Italy and Libya. That's also kind 116 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 4: of fascinating. But then we're going to get all the 117 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 4: way off topic if we dive into that. 118 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. 119 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 4: So, somewhere between two thousand and four and two thousand 120 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 4: and five, Libya was supplied with money and equipment to 121 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 4: help stem the flow of illegal migration coming from Africa. 122 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 4: Kadaffi himself said in twenty ten that this was to 123 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 4: prevent the loss of European cultural identity to a new 124 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 4: black Europa, after Libya was paid fifty million euro for 125 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 4: this purpose that same year. 126 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, based anti colonial Yes, I'm sure that's a 127 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 3: Gadaffi did nothing wrong movement that exists on some corner 128 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 3: of Reddit that I haven't Oh, got that plumitted into yet, 129 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 3: but yeah, this guy was a third. 130 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 4: I cannot find a stick long enough that I would 131 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 4: touch that community with, to be honest. That's also something 132 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 4: that plays in here, and that I think, like you 133 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 4: read a lot of human rights reports, you come across it. 134 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 4: But there's also like a distinct form of racism for 135 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 4: Sub Saharan or like Eastern African people. Definitely, Yeah, that's 136 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 4: also going to play into this. It's just a smorgas 137 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 4: board of bad stuff. 138 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean for people who perhaps grew up in 139 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:54,679 Speaker 3: the United States, you know for their were and received 140 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 3: verio education in school about African geography and politics like 141 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 3: this can be hard to grasp, right, Like Africa is 142 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 3: sometimes perceived as a country, not a continent in sort 143 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 3: of discourse in the United States. And that's again like 144 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 3: it's not people's fault, like it's it's in nature of 145 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 3: our education system failing people. But yeah, if you're not familiar, 146 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 3: rarely view it's called in North Africa, and like great 147 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 3: replacement style racist conspiracies absolutely exist in North Africa about 148 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 3: people from Sub Saharan Africa. Either that the parts of 149 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 3: Africa that are beneath the Sahara desert and in the 150 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 3: which you could find by looking at them that. But 151 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 3: yet like just because this is in Africa, like racist 152 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 3: shit is absolutely going down. No. 153 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 4: I think it was highlighted a bit when the president 154 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 4: or Prime Minister of Tunisia was cracking down on migration 155 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 4: that there was also like a very distinct racism against 156 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 4: against sub Saharan Africans. 157 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, but it is. 158 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 3: It's a global thing where because racist is a social 159 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 3: construct and it's not like an inherent thing that that 160 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 3: You'll hear this a lot. You know, I've worked in 161 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 3: Hispaniola a lot, Right, the island that contains hating Dominican Republic, 162 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 3: the island which receives millions of dollars from the United 163 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 3: States to reinforce the border between the two nations that 164 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 3: make it up. You will hear this reference to Haitian 165 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 3: people as black from Afro Caribbean Dominican people, right, And 166 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 3: this idea that there's this racial distinction between the two, 167 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 3: that it's a nature of race, right, it's quite social 168 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 3: construct between mobilized to create a power dynamic. 169 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a whole other topic of discussion, because I 170 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 4: identity and race are so intermingled but also so fluid. Yeah, 171 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 4: you could talk for hours about it, but that's not 172 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 4: why we're here. Yeah, a warming up ties with Libya 173 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 4: was a pragmatic approach from the EU, as it lies 174 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,439 Speaker 4: just on the doorstep of Fortress Europe, but also marked 175 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 4: the start of set fortress to start externalizing its borders 176 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 4: into Africa, slowly working towards ki migrants and refugees from 177 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 4: setting food on European soil, which would entitle them to 178 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 4: apply for asylum. So even that step that's encoded in 179 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:14,079 Speaker 4: European law, we're trying to like circumvent by just making 180 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 4: sure that they don't cross the Mediterranean. 181 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 2: Right. 182 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 4: So sometime later, when the civil war began during the 183 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 4: Art Spring, Yeah, Libyan dissidents got rid of the sex 184 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,839 Speaker 4: best that was more mar Kadaffi. So the world became 185 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,319 Speaker 4: a slightly better place after that. Currently, there are two 186 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 4: major factions fighting over power in Libya, although there are 187 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 4: numerous other groups involved. To dive into this would probably 188 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 4: take up most of the episodes, so I will leave 189 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 4: that aside. Yeah, the first of the major factions is 190 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 4: the GNU, the Government of National Unity, led by Prime 191 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 4: Minister Abdul Ahmit de Deba even fills the north west 192 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 4: of Libya, including the capital Tripoli. The other faction is 193 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 4: led by US Libyan national Khalifa Hafta, who commands the 194 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 4: Libyan National Army or LNA, who expressed loyalty to the 195 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 4: elected governments and are therefore often referred to as the 196 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 4: ho R the House of Represented Sentatives. I will try 197 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 4: to be consistent with the sacronyms, but no guarantees. Unsurprisingly, 198 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 4: after I was mentioned in accusations made in twenty three 199 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,079 Speaker 4: for his militia's treatment of migrants, with some reports indicating 200 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 4: that they or he may be profiting of the smuggling SAM. 201 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 4: We pretty much got a warlord over there with an 202 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 4: army at his disposal who's not disincentivized not treat migrants 203 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 4: as things for his own profit. 204 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 2: Yeah right. 205 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 4: Another fun fact that reveals how absolutely fucked up the 206 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 4: situation is the capture and subsequent release of infamous warlord 207 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 4: Osama Ala Mustri by Italy. Almasri had outstanding of warrants 208 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 4: from the International Criminal Court due to him having the 209 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 4: TRIPLEI branch of detention centers backed by the Special Defense Force, 210 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 4: both of which are used of atrocities and war crimes 211 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 4: during the Civil War. He was captured in Turin after 212 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 4: a soccer match. The ICC requested he be arrested, but 213 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 4: they turn based tribunal declined to approve the prove it, 214 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 4: after which Almasriios res niece back into Libya Jesus. 215 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 2: So yeah, right, we. 216 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 4: Love our ICC and then not following through on it. 217 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, right, Like the ic C does not in fact 218 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 3: have an army that it can send out to people 219 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 3: who completely ignore it. 220 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a body that doesn't have any power to 221 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 4: really enforce decisions. I know that the current Dutch Prime 222 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 4: Minister said of Benjaminett and Yahoo that they could just 223 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 4: ignore the outstanding warrant for his arrest, that Yao could 224 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 4: just visit the Netherlands, which, like, I don't even know 225 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 4: what to say about that. 226 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, this is the nature of what you're 227 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 3: talking about in an extent, right, like the ICC's rulings 228 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 3: and all human rights only exist insofar as they are 229 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,199 Speaker 3: convenient to the powerfuls as in the world. 230 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 4: It's very much a rules for d but not for 231 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 4: me kind of attitudes. 232 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. 233 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, I find it extremely disheartening and I feel myself 234 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,839 Speaker 4: growing more cynical because of this world that I grew 235 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 4: up in, and I'm slowly seeing that all the rules 236 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 4: and all the great things that I was taught in 237 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 4: school are kind of not rules but more like guidelines. 238 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and that only applied to certain people. 239 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 3: It's really heartbreaking to see, Like I mean, I've heard 240 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 3: it a lot from people, right, but especially from Burmese people. 241 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 3: They really educated themselves an international law when they were 242 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 3: going out to protest. At first, they talk about the 243 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 3: r twop, like the responsibility to protect, which is it 244 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 3: doesn't matter to concept in international law, but I've allowed 245 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 3: someone to intervene, and like they thought, this is the 246 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 3: international law, it's the world law, so someone's going to 247 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 3: do it, and like no, you know, over the months 248 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 3: that they were in the streets, over the thousands of 249 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 3: deaths that they've seen, now they've come to realize that 250 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 3: that law isn't there to protect them, that there's no 251 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 3: one who's coming to save them, and that's led to 252 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 3: them building a very unique and beautiful revolution. But at 253 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 3: the same time, it costs thousands of innocent lives, and 254 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 3: it's heartbreaking to see their faith being misplaced in this institution. 255 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 3: It doesn't care about it. 256 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 4: We can talk very high and mighty about all these 257 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 4: laws and whether in war or whether about refugees, but 258 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 4: in the end, very often they just seem worth as 259 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 4: much as the paper they're written on. Yeah, exactly, It's 260 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 4: okay to become cynical after that realization. 261 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 262 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 4: So, while the conditions for migrants were getting noticeably more 263 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 4: horrible in the aftermath of the twenty eleven intervention by NATO, 264 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 4: it was, as we said earlier, by no means the 265 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 4: start could definitely very much used migration as leverage to 266 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 4: gain concessions and standing among European governmental bodies. Exploitation of 267 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 4: migrants was already reported by human rights ruts back in 268 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 4: two thousand and nine. A similar vein the fact that 269 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 4: the Libyan Coast Guard routinely picks up migrants in the 270 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 4: international waters to return them to Libya has also been 271 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 4: documented as early as two thousand and nine. How Frontex 272 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 4: is involved with that will get to that later. These 273 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 4: processes and dynamics were very much already in play prior 274 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 4: to Cadelphie meeting his maker. This kidnapping of migrants, because 275 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 4: I don't think there's a better or a harsher word 276 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 4: for it is an explicit violation of international European and 277 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 4: Italian law. Non refolment, which is the principle in these laws, 278 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 4: means that no refugee shall be returned or expelled to 279 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 4: a territory against their will where their freedoms and life 280 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 4: are threatened. From January first, twenty nineteen to June thirtieth, 281 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 4: twenty twenty, Libya received sixty one point six million euros 282 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 4: as part of the European Union Integrated Border Management Assistance 283 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 4: Mission Mandate, with an explicit focus on establishing state security 284 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 4: structures in the country. Funding is meant to help stem 285 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 4: migration to Europe through strengthening the border management, law enforcement, 286 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 4: and criminal justice systems of Libya. Emphasis is placed on 287 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 4: disrupting the networks that operate the smuggling and trafficking of persons. 288 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 4: We already discussed these institutions are directly or indirectly contributing 289 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 4: very often to the exploitation and enslavement of refugees. So 290 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 4: that's sixty one million euros that has indirectly gone through 291 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 4: those very systems that enslave and torture people. 292 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. 293 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 4: So when many liberal authorities often have direct links to 294 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 4: militias or organized crime groups that engage in these practices. 295 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 4: Authorities in the Ministry of Defense, the Ministry of Interior, 296 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 4: the Department to Combat Irregular Migration, the Libyan Coast Guard, 297 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 4: and the Special Deterrence Force has all been implicated. It 298 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 4: has got so bad that even the Ministry of Defense 299 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 4: employs Coast Guard units that are made up of militias 300 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 4: who profit from these human rights abuses. 301 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's fastical to think that like you could throw 302 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 3: some money at this problem and not just like more 303 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 3: empower these people. 304 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 4: Yes, it's even I think when we talked last year 305 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 4: about this, I think Rows from Migrant mentioned it. But 306 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 4: the Libyans get paid twice because first they get paid 307 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 4: to make sure that to return these migrants back to Libya, 308 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 4: but then they can also get paid for selling them 309 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 4: into slavery. 310 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 2: Do you what do you even say to that? 311 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's genuinely unfavorable for a lot of 312 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 3: people than twenty twenty five. People are absolutely being captured 313 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 3: and sold into slavery. That is occurring. 314 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 4: Yes, I've read some Human Rights Watch accounts of people 315 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 4: who were imprisoned for sometimes in years and then made 316 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 4: to work in one way or another for whoever ran 317 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 4: that particular detention center and the one that I'm thinking 318 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 4: of right now, after six years, I think that person 319 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 4: was able to buy himself away from the authorities than 320 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 4: his boat was captured within thirty minutes after he got 321 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 4: off the boat, Libya got back to a different attention 322 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 4: center where he spent four days, and I think after 323 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 4: that he got another chance on the boat, and I 324 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 4: think he was rescued by the volunteer or human rights 325 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 4: organizations who are also patrolling the sea north of Libya. 326 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, we interviewed some of them talking of patrolling the seas. 327 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 3: Maybe this is an advert for a boat. 328 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 4: Yes, there will be a front TACs ad right now 329 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 4: for all the European listeners. 330 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, all right, we are back. 331 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,199 Speaker 4: So we left off with just briefly mentioning how the 332 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 4: Libyan state functions as part of this more than organized 333 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,479 Speaker 4: crime syndicateive profits from the abuse of innocent people. And 334 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 4: this is in a way not really surprising. Back in 335 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 4: eighty five, academic Charles Tilly already argued that the states 336 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 4: as a form of social organization, it's pretty much indistinguishable 337 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 4: from an organized crime group. Yeah, I'll make sure that 338 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 4: the sources in the description below if anyone is interested, 339 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 4: But for those who don't want to read it, in 340 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 4: very short, they're both major organizations over which you have 341 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 4: very little control, and if you don't pay them the 342 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 4: taxes or protection money that they want, then people will 343 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 4: show up to break your legs. That's the two sentence 344 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 4: explanation of that article. 345 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that. 346 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 4: After the principle of non refoulment has been violated, refugees 347 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 4: are brought to detention centers in theory under the supervision 348 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 4: of the DCIM. In practice, this does not hold up. 349 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 4: There are no official or verified numbers of how many 350 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 4: centers there are or how many people are even health captive. 351 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 4: They Libyan numbers just somewhere between seventeen to thirty five 352 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 4: facilities holding over seven thousand people. Human rights groups have 353 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 4: questions these numbers and argued that the number is likely 354 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,479 Speaker 4: between ten thousand and twenty thousand people being held captive. 355 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 4: The reality is that we simply don't know. Yeah, we 356 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 4: don't know exactly how many cent facilities there are to 357 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 4: hold these people, and we don't know how many people 358 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 4: are in them. Human rights watchers or UN delegates often 359 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 4: don't get the full picture even if they go there 360 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 4: to visit and inspect the places. There was one part 361 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 4: of what I read where they would only be allowed 362 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,120 Speaker 4: during the day, but then at night is when most 363 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 4: of the horrible stuff happens. Yeah, So still there's very 364 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 4: much a process of trying to not show what is 365 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 4: being done there. People in these detention centers are held 366 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:58,360 Speaker 4: indefinitely and lack any sort of legal processes or procedures 367 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 4: to determine their state. In fact, according to a twenty 368 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 4: nineteen RUN report, there is no official procedure to assess 369 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 4: asylum status in Libya, meaning that in the legal sense, 370 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 4: this category is absolutely meaningless. 371 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. 372 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 4: On top of that, there's also a lack of a 373 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 4: process for exiting entertainment, so that that's an entire procedure 374 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 4: that is just done at the whim of whoever happens 375 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 4: to control like that particular facility. 376 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that could be someone who has just like 377 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 3: seized it by arms from whoever controlled it last, right, exactly. 378 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 4: There's sometimes facilities are abandoned and they can become official. 379 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 4: There's also been reports of the government rating like unofficial centers, 380 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 4: but then recapturing those people and put them in official centers. 381 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 2: Great, that'll make it better. 382 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 4: It would be funny if it wasn't so fucking horrible. 383 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's bleak. 384 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 4: The DCM closed down five centers that had a history 385 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 4: of human rights violations. This act, however, had little effect 386 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 4: on halting abuses. Reports of beatings and torture continued as 387 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 4: some official centers closed by the DCIM quickly became unofficial 388 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 4: sites reopened and operated by militias. For example, the Buisa 389 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 4: official Attention Center in Saweya was ordered to close due 390 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 4: to reports of sexual abuse taking place. He reopened a 391 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 4: day later and operated under a new name managed by 392 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 4: armed groups. Dtaee explanation was seamlessly transferred from official to 393 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 4: unofficial banners, helping empower militants and criminal actors in the region. 394 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 4: So we're now going to take a deeper look at 395 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 4: these centers. I found an amazing article by Nadia aldayon 396 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 4: Aaron Anfinson and Graham Anfinson in there, and James that 397 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:55,360 Speaker 4: this Israel the Journal of Human Trafficking, which is an 398 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 4: actual academic journal that exists. 399 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 3: Jesus, Yeah, I mean, I guess, yeah. If there's the 400 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 3: thing someone has written their PhD. This station about it, 401 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 3: it makes sense. 402 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,880 Speaker 4: I imagine this journal is just one or two articles 403 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 4: and for the rest it's just pictures of Jeffrey Epstein 404 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 4: and Andrew Tate, just back to back to back, because 405 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 4: ah yeah again, would would be funny if. 406 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 3: It wasn't so fu Yeah, yeah, I can't. I can't 407 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 3: imagine working as an editor at the Journal of Human Trafficking. 408 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 3: Is the job that like you have that is like 409 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 3: the like the special force selection cause of mental health. Yeah, 410 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 3: like you you are facing all the challenges that can 411 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 3: be thrown in a person. 412 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I'm sure there's like a psychologist like on 413 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 4: standby at the journal just to make sure like that 414 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 4: that the people running guitar all right. 415 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. 416 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 4: So these academics distinguished between three types of centers, official 417 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 4: meaning they are run by the states in so far 418 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 4: as that means anything, of course, then there are the 419 00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 4: two unofficial types, which I will call semi official and officious. 420 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 4: Semi official centers are those run partially by state forces 421 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 4: in cooperation with local groups, militias, or other non state actors. 422 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 4: Officious centers are those run entirely by non state forces, 423 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 4: while conditions in official centers are air quotes better than 424 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 4: the latter two. It's by no means a good place 425 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 4: to be. None of these free categories are exempt from 426 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 4: all the violence being done to people. All three have 427 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 4: been named and implicated in abuses and violations. According to 428 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 4: the authors, there are about twenty one official sites, twelve 429 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 4: semi official and twenty two officious sides, with one reportedly 430 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 4: being run by ISIS in Naphalia back in twenty to fifteen. 431 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,640 Speaker 4: Cool ISIS had a stronghold in Libya back in the day. 432 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I did. 433 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, And the fact that ISIS might have been involved 434 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 4: in human trafficking is the least surprising thing here. 435 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:55,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. 436 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 3: I mean they were trafficking people into the Islamic State, 437 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 3: into their what are their so called Cali right. 438 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, this is progressed, and now trafficking people away from it. Yeah, 439 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 4: this is a small victories. Of all these sites that 440 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 4: I just mentioned, a remarkable amount is intriqually, the capital 441 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 4: of Libya. Sometimes these sites overlap with areas with known 442 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 4: prostitution rings. The researchers found at least nine such networks, 443 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 4: with the majority of the sex slaves being from sub 444 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 4: Saharan regions and to east Africa, they are mostly women, 445 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 4: but it also happens to men. Libya has no laws 446 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:34,640 Speaker 4: or procedures to criminalize male sex trafficking while men are 447 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 4: still the minority. I do think it's worth mentioning. Yeah, absolutely, 448 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 4: that is also something that happens and most likely underreported on. 449 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's something you'd really struggle, Like the 450 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 3: nature of masculinity and like its toxicity makes it hard 451 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 3: for people to come forward to you and say this 452 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 3: is happening to. 453 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 4: Me, right exactly, And it makes that that process becomes 454 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 4: even harder if there is no legal framework to stand on. 455 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, there's like there's nothing to say, like this 456 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 3: is that at least you can say what's happening to 457 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 3: you is wrong. It's perceived as a crime, right, Like, 458 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 3: if that's not there, it says no, like how can 459 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 3: I support this person? 460 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 2: Right? 461 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 3: Who do you direct that person to? Like exactly, anybody 462 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 3: who has been trafficked and forced into sex work, like, 463 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 3: and I've spoken to migrants for whom that has been 464 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 3: the case. Like there's a great deal of stigma they 465 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 3: have to overcome, which they shouldn't have to, Like, it's 466 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,919 Speaker 3: not none of what's happened to them is their choice, 467 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 3: but it's very difficult for them to talk about it, 468 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 3: and it's very unlikely for them to really be able 469 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 3: to get any form of accountability for the people who 470 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 3: did this to them. And that's in settings outside of Libya, 471 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 3: like in Libya. Fucking good luck, I imagine, Like. 472 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 4: I think that's just a problem in general, not just 473 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 4: in Libya. Yeah, it's arguably much worse than Livia. But yeah, 474 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 4: even in countries that we're much more familiar with, this 475 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 4: is happening, and it's still very hard to obtain the 476 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 4: accountability from the perpetrators that any better world would be happening. Yeah, 477 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 4: So I am now going to quote for the article 478 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 4: for the next batch of horrors for women and girls, 479 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 4: various degrees of sexual violence were commonplace. Facilities that did 480 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 4: allow some angio access barred visitations at night, which is 481 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 4: when many severe abuses occurred. Detention center operators performed systemic 482 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 4: rape on women and teenage girls on a nightly basis. 483 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 4: Those that resisted were threatened with death. Others were killed 484 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 4: by severe sexual assault and rape. Impregnations by detention center 485 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 4: of officials also occurred. So, yeah, I'm going to briefly 486 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 4: cite the accounts of someone who has been for that Afni, 487 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 4: which is a pseudonym. An eighteen year old Somali woman 488 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 4: told me, very softly that she was gang raped by 489 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 4: smugglers multiple times the end of the two years she 490 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 4: spent confined in a smuggler warehouse in Kufra, released from 491 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 4: the warehouse and dispatched the Tripoli defend for herself. When 492 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 4: she became pregnant, Ofne gave birth to a little girl, 493 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 4: depending on handouts and help from strangers to survive. She 494 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 4: told me that when she decided to attempt the sea 495 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 4: crossing with her daughter, they ended up in another night 496 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 4: marriage smuggler warehouse, where one of the smugglers refused to 497 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 4: find food for her baby unless Afne had sex with him. 498 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 4: Her daughter died when she was seven months old. 499 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 2: God, oh, what a fucking leak thing. 500 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 4: Yes, the entire article that that quote was frob is 501 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 4: like a rife with crimes like this. 502 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, is horrific stuff. 503 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 4: I'll make sure that it's in the notes below if 504 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 4: you would want to read that. Yeah, and absolutely no 505 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 4: shame with people don't want to read. 506 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 3: This because it is fucked Yeah, yeah, you didn't have 507 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 3: to expose yourself to all this. You don't have to 508 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 3: know every detail of it to care about people like, 509 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 3: it's okay not to read it. 510 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, ah, so I want to close this particular censu 511 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 4: budget brutally driving this point home. But like women and 512 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 4: teenage girls are being raped to death over there on 513 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 4: a systemic level. Yeah, and I'm fucking disgusted with the 514 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 4: fact that the EU is still sending money there that 515 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 4: is indirectly facilitating this. 516 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've mean fucking well, it gets on it's high 517 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 3: horse about like gender and quality and women's rights and 518 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 3: such things, and then like unless it's the inconvenient gender 519 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 3: equality of migrants, right, or that the rights of migrants. 520 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 4: Which yeah, I need a cigarette now. 521 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 2: Fuck. 522 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 3: It's the fucking worst thing that I deal with talking 523 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 3: to people about work. It's like people who have survived 524 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 3: sexual violence, or like people who can reasonably expect to 525 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 3: encounter it and making this journey because they think that 526 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 3: it's there only option anyway. 527 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, It's it's not that people who undertake this journey 528 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 4: to a batel life that they once are unaware of 529 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 4: the risks. It's despite the risks that they're just doing it. 530 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the same in the Americas, Rightly, people understand 531 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 3: that the you know, I mentioned this in my Darien 532 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 3: Gap episode, but very young children are subject to sexual violence, 533 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 3: which also sometimes results in their death. Yeah, and like 534 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 3: they understand that that world is at such an exaggerated 535 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 3: level of inequality that people are willing to take those 536 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 3: risks because that's the way the only way that they 537 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,959 Speaker 3: feel they can secure a safe future for their children. 538 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 4: Yeah. It is a level of courage that I cannot fathom. Yeah, 539 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 4: me need that. The best I could do was just 540 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 4: acknowledge that I can't fathom it. But that's also like 541 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 4: a very bitter built to swallow. 542 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is like I uh, you know, I attend 543 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 3: wars for work sometimes. And the women who take on 544 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 3: the migration, especially when not that men are not so 545 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 3: back to sexual violence, say ah, but it's probably more 546 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 3: likely for women to experience it. The women who take 547 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 3: on the migration journey alone or with their children, like 548 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 3: those people's bravery, Like I can't fathom being that brave. 549 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 3: I can't imagine how one can be that courageous a 550 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 3: dedicated to one's child. And we talked in our podcast 551 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 3: recently about Primrose who came with her daughter. Like that's 552 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 3: someone I'm still like just in awe of, you know, 553 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 3: like you don't see that kind of courage and dedication 554 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 3: and just like ability to push through things that are 555 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 3: horrific with this goal in mind of reaching the United States, 556 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 3: Like it's and it continues to be something that I 557 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 3: struggled to find words to express, obviously, but it's really something. 558 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 2: I want to say. 559 00:31:54,720 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 4: Something just speechless, Yeah, not much to say. 560 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 2: Uh, you know who else should be speechless? 561 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 3: Is it the products and services to support this podcast? 562 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 2: I sure hope. So just two minutes of silence. 563 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, hopefully it will just be a little moment for 564 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 3: quiet contemplation for all of you out there. 565 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 2: All Right, we're back. 566 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 3: We've we've had a glass of water, and we're going 567 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 3: to keep doing the podcast anyway. 568 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 2: Yes, rehydrates a bit. Yeah. 569 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 570 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 4: So in terms of like explicit accounts, that was it. Okay, Yeah, 571 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 4: So if someone had to skip over that part, that 572 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 4: part of the episode should be done. You can start 573 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 4: listening again. So as of this recording, They're Missing Migrants Project, 574 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 4: who tracks migrant depths and those who become missing. Between 575 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 4: our quotes, approximately thirty two thousand people are either dead 576 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 4: or missing and presumed death in the Mediterranean that I 577 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 4: have been confirmed Jesus. The overwhelming majority of these people 578 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 4: drowned while attempting the crossing. Two five hundred and eighty 579 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 4: two of these cases were registered in twenty twenty four. 580 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 4: Last year, roughly seventy thousand people attempted a crossing, according 581 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 4: to statistics from the European Commission. This may not appear 582 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 4: as a lot of deaths compared to the crossings, but 583 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 4: this figure does not take into account deaths on the 584 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 4: journey towards the crossing. I was not able to verify 585 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 4: how the number of seventy thousand was made up, as 586 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 4: the EO website I got it from is a collection 587 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 4: of data from different countries and agencies who register it. 588 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 4: What do you think is safe to assume, and let 589 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 4: me emphasize assume here is that people captured by Italian 590 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 4: multice cypriots or Libyan co authorities is included in this number, 591 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 4: so that those are people who've attempted the crossing and 592 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 4: then are taken back to Libya, possibly undertaking the journey again. 593 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,279 Speaker 4: Yeah right, because yeah, I know you've stressed this a 594 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 4: few times. But a number one does not mean that 595 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,439 Speaker 4: it's just a single person. It can be the same 596 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 4: person who tries to cross multiple times. 597 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, right, people will will peak crossings. I think we 598 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 3: reach a point where the numbers are not and not 599 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,359 Speaker 3: that every point of these people is a person, right, 600 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,280 Speaker 3: But like I would be any less pissed off if 601 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 3: it was fifty thousand. 602 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 4: Like after a certain amount, it just becomes a number 603 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 4: because we just can can't imagine how many people that is. 604 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, Like we shouldn't ever have to conceive the thirty 605 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 3: two thousand people drowning, right, that it's not a thing 606 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 3: that in the twenty first century we should allow to 607 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 3: happen as a society, Like, yeah, this shit, Like, you know, 608 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 3: I've participated meat Day along the border and very familiar 609 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 3: with death at the border, But the scale of this 610 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 3: is unfathomable, even to someone who's spent a decent amount 611 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 3: of time across the migrant trails of the America. Is 612 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,800 Speaker 3: that two thousand and five hundred two deaths in a year. 613 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 2: Like that's a small village. 614 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, absolutely the other yearly basis, Yeah, it's a 615 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:25,800 Speaker 4: decent size city. If you take that thirty two thousand number. 616 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 2: Yeah. 617 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like a mid sized music festival of people 618 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 3: who didn't need to die. 619 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:31,919 Speaker 2: Yes. 620 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 4: I checked the websites called info Migrants, and they estimate 621 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 4: that the Libyan Coast Guard alone has returned again. Air 622 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 4: quotes around twenty one thousand migrants are caught during a 623 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,719 Speaker 4: crossing attempt, So the vast majority of these people end 624 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 4: up back in the detention centers we discussed earlier, So 625 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,720 Speaker 4: that's around one for every three and a half people 626 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 4: being captured. 627 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,760 Speaker 2: Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. 628 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 4: There was at some point a video making the rounds, 629 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,720 Speaker 4: and it was this African woman on a boat, filmed 630 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,320 Speaker 4: with like a mobile phone, and she was just crying 631 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 4: and was just saying like, Hey, if the Libyan Coast 632 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 4: God shows up, I'm jumping overboard. No way am I 633 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:17,919 Speaker 4: going back there. 634 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:19,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've seen that. 635 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 4: That is one of those statements that I will immediately believe. 636 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:23,399 Speaker 2: Yeah. 637 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, people have self immolated in those detention centers like 638 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 3: Suich just dead misery and their desire for the world 639 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 3: to see them. I guess I can understand why someone 640 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 3: would just rather stop being. 641 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 4: So the little calculation I just made that leaves us 642 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 4: with forty nine thousand people making the crossing, of which 643 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 4: eighty two diets resulting in forty six thousand, four hundred 644 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 4: people entering Europe through the Libyan roots. Again, these are approximations. 645 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 4: More exact numbers will never know. Yeah. I tried to 646 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 4: track money and expenditures a tiny bit to see how 647 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 4: the EU is dealing with this. It's not one of 648 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 4: my strong suits. I want to be upfront with that. 649 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,359 Speaker 4: I was able to find that between twenty twenty and 650 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 4: twenty twenty three, THEE granted at least one hundred and 651 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:24,760 Speaker 4: five million euro under the European Integrated Border Management Assistance Mission. 652 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 4: This is money that is directly going to Libya for 653 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:32,320 Speaker 4: assistance in managing our border. This number does not include 654 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 4: money directly or indirectly given to Libya from individual member 655 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:41,640 Speaker 4: states or from the budget of the EU's Border Agency FRONTACS. 656 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,800 Speaker 4: The latter has seen an absolute massive increase in their budgets. Yeah, 657 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 4: from around two hundred and fifty billion in twenty sixteen 658 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,919 Speaker 4: to over eight hundred and forty billion in twenty twenty three. 659 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 2: God, yeah, that's a vast increase. 660 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:03,240 Speaker 4: Yes, And what's relatively recently been happening is that rather 661 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,879 Speaker 4: than have their own vessels in the sea. They are 662 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 4: using air reconnaissance in the form of drones or other 663 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 4: airborne vehicles spot spot boat boats or thingies with migrants 664 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,480 Speaker 4: and then they give that information to the Libyan coast 665 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 4: Guard they can pick them up, right. And this is 666 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 4: where the EU is I would say, directly complicit in 667 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 4: like the abuse that that that's happening in Libya. 668 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a perfectly reasonable thing to say. 669 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 4: Because we know what it is likely to certainly going 670 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:37,839 Speaker 4: to happen to the people that are picked up by 671 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:38,799 Speaker 4: the Libyan coast Guard. 672 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. 673 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,399 Speaker 3: And if you're saying that Haley beIN coasted Alcaemy pick 674 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 3: up these people, you know what's going to happen to 675 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 3: those people, like and it's not good. And they keep 676 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 3: doing it despite it being more than a decade of 677 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 3: evidence at this point abusive migrants. 678 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 4: Italy, in particular, as the country receives a lot of 679 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 4: migrants from metaty Iranian crossings, is keen on helping Libya 680 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 4: in terms of training, material and funding additional agreements between 681 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 4: the two countries. At another uncomfortable light on the dynamic, 682 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:15,359 Speaker 4: there was first the EU Libya slash Italy Libya Memorandum 683 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 4: of Understanding signed in twenty seventeen. It saw an enhanced 684 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:25,240 Speaker 4: enhancement of military insecurity related to trying to prevent migrants 685 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 4: from making a crossing advertently or inadvertently trying to make 686 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 4: Libya their final stop and trap them there under the 687 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 4: conditions that we just discussed. That agreement is a continuation 688 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:42,400 Speaker 4: of the Treaty on Friendship, Partnership and Corporation that was 689 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 4: signed by Libya and Italy back in twenty eighth which 690 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 4: described the corporation in detail visv combating illegal migration from 691 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,719 Speaker 4: Libya to the EU. We also have the Multi Declaration 692 00:39:54,840 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 4: from twenty seventeen which only strengthened unbacked governmental organs within 693 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,240 Speaker 4: the EU, as well as a commitment to further assist 694 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 4: Libya in training, in providing funding and technical assistance. Those 695 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 4: are the main purposes of disagreements, which is to prevent 696 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:17,640 Speaker 4: people from passing the prestigious gates of Fortress Europe because politically, 697 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 4: we'd rather add them to the mortar with which those 698 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 4: walls are built. 699 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:22,240 Speaker 2: Jesus. 700 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 4: And it is these conditions that Washington Ghules thought would 701 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 4: be a suitable place to send migrants to who do 702 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 4: not speak the language know the people have legal representation 703 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 4: or assumably even have the money to do anything. We've 704 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,279 Speaker 4: barely spoken of the civil war that is still going 705 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 4: on there, Yeah, with like fighting in the capital of 706 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:48,280 Speaker 4: Troopoli happened like two weeks ago. We haven't spoken about 707 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 4: any legal or law related issues that these people would 708 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 4: invariably run into were they to be deported to Libya. 709 00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 4: It's the umpteen for example, of colonialism, military and from states, 710 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 4: war wandering, and the transfer of problems to another place 711 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:09,400 Speaker 4: or to another generation. Very much like climate change, actions 712 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,400 Speaker 4: such as these will have immense direct and ripple effects 713 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,239 Speaker 4: that our children, anchorant children will learn the consequences of. 714 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:21,719 Speaker 4: And the last bit I've added because let's hope that 715 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 4: no one is going to be sent Olivia from the States. 716 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 4: But I can very much imagine that those people will 717 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 4: face the same horrors that they will have to create 718 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,880 Speaker 4: their own little communities just to be able to get by. Yeah, 719 00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 4: I can imagine some people might might run into ISIS 720 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:47,239 Speaker 4: over there and become radicalized. We could also get like 721 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:51,480 Speaker 4: small pockets of people who just write a survived but 722 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,400 Speaker 4: are still stuck there and grow resentment there is no 723 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 4: real way to estimate what the consequences are going to 724 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,880 Speaker 4: be of deporting pepeople there other than that like the 725 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 4: cruelty is happening that Washington rules are aiming for. 726 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:07,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. 727 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:09,239 Speaker 3: I think that the point is to hurt these people 728 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 3: as much as possible at the moment, and then there 729 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,960 Speaker 3: isn't really much of a long term thought process beyond that. Like, 730 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 3: I guess I would like to say that people were 731 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,280 Speaker 3: enraged at the thought of the United States sending migrants 732 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,520 Speaker 3: to Liby, and they should be. I'm glad that they were, 733 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,839 Speaker 3: but they should also be in rage at the reality 734 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:31,560 Speaker 3: of the European Union doing it every single day. Yes, 735 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,759 Speaker 3: way more than twelve people, and like you should care 736 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,759 Speaker 3: about that too, especially if you're in Europe, Like you know, 737 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 3: obviously I am a person from Europe. I think it's easy, 738 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 3: like for people to get this kind of smug social 739 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,719 Speaker 3: democracy kind of like, oh, look at the Americans, they're 740 00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 3: so fucked up. Not saying things aren't fucked up here, 741 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,880 Speaker 3: they are, but like the EU is doing some fucked 742 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:57,799 Speaker 3: up shit to migrants, and like people in Europe should 743 00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:58,919 Speaker 3: be in the streets about that too. 744 00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,640 Speaker 4: Definitely, like this is just the biggest of all the issues. 745 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,600 Speaker 4: But there's also abuses and human rights violations happening in 746 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,200 Speaker 4: the Balkans for the people who take that crossing, there's 747 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,040 Speaker 4: people who try to cross from a Rocco to Spain. Yeah, 748 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 4: who also encounter again, not as bad as the things 749 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 4: we just talked about, but by no means it's good. 750 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:23,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely shouldn't be happening. 751 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:25,719 Speaker 4: I don't even want to use words like good or 752 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,520 Speaker 4: bad because like they tend to lose all meaning. Yeah, 753 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,239 Speaker 4: like less bad doesn't necessarily mean good. 754 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:33,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really doesn't. 755 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,719 Speaker 4: It means less worse. And yeah, there are there are 756 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,760 Speaker 4: places to make that crossing that are less worse than Libya. 757 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:43,960 Speaker 3: But still, yeah, that doesn't mean any of it is desirable, yeah, 758 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:46,560 Speaker 3: or like that we should accept any of it. 759 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,799 Speaker 2: No, No, people should be fucking mad about all of this. 760 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:53,040 Speaker 4: And I also I would like to have to go 761 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:54,920 Speaker 4: back a little bit about what you said about like 762 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:59,840 Speaker 4: this buck European the social democracy. Yeah, like that's definitely 763 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:05,200 Speaker 4: attitude that's not uncommon among Europeans. But then again, we 764 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 4: very often fail to look into our own backyards. And 765 00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 4: also Europe just tends to be politically a few years 766 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,000 Speaker 4: behind the US, but we've also seen a rise in 767 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:25,800 Speaker 4: autocratic regimes like Victor Orbonn Yeah, massive example. Maloney in 768 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:31,080 Speaker 4: Italy is another one. But also in my own country 769 00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,520 Speaker 4: of the Netherlands, they try to bypass parliament in order 770 00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,320 Speaker 4: to make an emergency law to make sure that migrants 771 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,800 Speaker 4: wouldn't enter the Netherlands, and as we speak, they're threatening 772 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:47,960 Speaker 4: to stop the government formation if no stricter measures against 773 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:49,160 Speaker 4: migrants are being taken. 774 00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:50,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 775 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 4: So it's these little seeds of autocracy that are almost 776 00:44:56,120 --> 00:45:01,000 Speaker 4: more worrying because it's these little step that happened and 777 00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,440 Speaker 4: before you know it, things are getting worse quick. 778 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:05,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 779 00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,360 Speaker 3: Like, anyone who pays attention to the US can see 780 00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,960 Speaker 3: that the vehicle on which fascism was delivered to us 781 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:15,640 Speaker 3: is being delivered to us in a better way of saying, 782 00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:21,840 Speaker 3: it is anti micro sentiment, right, Like that is how 783 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,680 Speaker 3: this country built the toolkit that is now being used. 784 00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,040 Speaker 3: And you know, the rest of the world should pay 785 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:30,160 Speaker 3: attention to that, I hope. 786 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:32,319 Speaker 4: Yeah, we should see it as a warning sign, not 787 00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:33,239 Speaker 4: as a manual. 788 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:36,799 Speaker 2: Yeah. That's a good weapon, it. 789 00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, Unfortunately it's being used as a manual by certain 790 00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:41,239 Speaker 4: European governments. 791 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:46,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, so thank you for sharing that traumatic piece for 792 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:49,759 Speaker 3: reporting with I think that's that's rough. 793 00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,360 Speaker 4: I would say you're welcome if it wasn't a fucking 794 00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:55,920 Speaker 4: grim to say that at the end of all that. 795 00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:57,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. 796 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,480 Speaker 4: No, I'm happy that I read a lot and put together. 797 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:02,680 Speaker 4: I'm also going to have to find a puppy and 798 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:04,640 Speaker 4: cuddle the puppy for a few hours. 799 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:11,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, that's all I have for now. Great, Yeah, 800 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:13,319 Speaker 2: that's all I got to you. Thank you very much. 801 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,320 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 802 00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,560 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 803 00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:27,200 Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 804 00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:30,839 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 805 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,200 Speaker 1: now find sources for It Could Happen Here, listed directly 806 00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:35,520 Speaker 1: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.