1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Mankie listener discretion advised. In twelve 3 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: fifty five, a pope in northeast France hand wrote a 4 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: strange tale hoax in Rome, a woman becomes pope. According 5 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: to the Chronicle, in around eleven hundred, a woman disguised 6 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: herself as a man in order to rise through the 7 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: ranks of the Catholic hierarchy, from notary to cardinal and 8 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: all the way to pope. This woman pulled off her 9 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: scheme for a while, until one day she the pope, 10 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: was riding on horseback and went into labor, revealing her 11 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: deception to the Romans. The citizens of Rome dragged her 12 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: by horseback and stoned her as punishment for breaking the rules. 13 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:10,199 Speaker 1: This short, scandalous story raised a number of questions. Who 14 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: was this woman, where was she from? And how did 15 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: she make it through the gauntlet of Catholic politics without 16 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 1: getting caught? How did she get pregnant? If this happened 17 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: in eleven hundred, then why is this a female pope? 18 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: Objectively a massive deal only being reported for the first 19 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: time one hundred and fifty years later. Why is The 20 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: one detail we get about her time as pope that 21 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: she gave birth on horseback, which, while impressive and interesting, 22 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be the main headline of the story, 23 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: which again is that a woman was pope for the 24 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: first and only time in recorded history. This handwritten chronicle 25 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: from the monastery is even more ambiguous about the pope's 26 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: gender than you might imagine. While the headline explicitly calls 27 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: the pope in the story a woman, the text itself 28 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: never refers to the pope with any female pronouns, instead 29 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: opting for gender neutral pronouns like it and the neuter animated, 30 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: which is a Latin tense that defaults to male. The 31 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:26,079 Speaker 1: publication notes that the story is quote to be verified, 32 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: seeming to hedge the scandalous nature of the story. In 33 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: spite of these inconsistencies, the story of the alleged popess 34 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 1: spread among the medieval Catholic world, with various authors filling 35 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: in their own details about the legend. The popees became 36 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: an english woman from Maines. As a young woman, she 37 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: fell in love with a scholar and accompanied him to Athens. 38 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: While she was intellectually voracious, the Athenian professors wouldn't let 39 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: her into their classrooms, and so she disguised herself as 40 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: a man and moved to Rome. Admired for her vast 41 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:10,519 Speaker 1: knowledge of scripture, she so successfully embedded herself in the 42 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: Catholic Church that she was unanimously elected Pope. She served 43 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: in the position for two years until she suddenly gave birth, 44 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: traveling from Saint Peter's Basilica to Saint John Lantern, which 45 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: uncovered her deception. Carved busts reveal her name Johannes the Eighth, 46 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: or Pope Joan, but there is still one massive problem 47 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: with that more detailed history. There is no actual evidence 48 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: to prove that Pope Joan ever existed. The story I 49 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: just told about the englishwoman from Maines. It became the 50 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: most popular version of the legend, but that story was 51 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: cobbled together from hundreds of different accounts with wildly desparate details. 52 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: Some versions of the Pope Joan story take place in 53 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: the year nine hundred, others in eight hundred and fifty, 54 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: others in eleven hundred. In some accounts, Joan is named 55 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: agnes Anna or Gilberta, and the length of her papacy 56 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: varies from two months to two years. One would think 57 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: that such a scandal would have produced some documentary evidence. 58 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: She might have been depicted in paintings or sculptures, or 59 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 1: mentioned in articles or letters, But there were no references 60 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 1: to her to be found. So I have to be 61 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: the unfortunate bearer of bad news on this story and 62 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: make it very clear to you, the listener, that it 63 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: is incredibly unlikely that a female pope ever existed. One 64 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: would think that this lack of evidence would deter people 65 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 1: from spreading the story, but the opposite happened. There wouldn't 66 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: be a single source questioning the validity of the Pope 67 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: Jone story until three hundred years after the initial chronicle 68 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: was published in twelve fifty, and Jon's legend would continue 69 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: to spread for centuries after that, surviving debunking after debunking. 70 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 1: In fact, Pope Joan became a kind of Catholic forest gump, 71 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: popping up throughout pivotal moments in the history of the 72 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 1: Catholic Church and playing central roles in religious conflicts. She 73 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: even spread far beyond the church into secular life, popping 74 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 1: up in plays, novels, and even card games. How did 75 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: the almost certainly false myth of Pope Joan manage to 76 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 1: survive for almost a millennium in spite of shoddy evidence 77 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: and multiple debunkings. In this episode, we'll try to solve 78 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: the mystery, tracing the story of a woman who, as 79 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: Catholic scholar Tom Noble put it quote, never lived, but 80 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: who nevertheless refuses to die. I'm Danish Schwartz and this 81 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 1: is noble blood. To solve the mystery of how and 82 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: why the legend of Pope Joan spread, we should look 83 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: more closely at the first mention of her, the Monastery 84 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: Chronicle from twelve fifty five. Unfortunately, we don't know much 85 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 1: about it. The author of this text was a Dominican 86 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: monk named Jean de Maii, but scholars don't know much 87 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: about him other than that he wrote this article and 88 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 1: one other book of legends. We don't know where he 89 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: got his information about Pope Joan from, or what his 90 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: intentions were for this story, or if he believed the 91 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 1: story himself, but Maille's role as a Dominican monk gives 92 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: us a clue. Maye wasn't alone in reproducing sketchy rumors. 93 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: In fact, it was a matter of principle for friars 94 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: to document as many stories as possible, no matter how apocryphal. 95 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: It didn't even seem to matter whether or not the 96 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: author believed the story they were reporting. Jean de Meili 97 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: wrote about plenty of legends he didn't personally believe. For example, 98 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: he wrote an account of the Nativity where Salome, one 99 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: of Jesus' disciples, wanted to confirm Mary's virginity before she 100 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: gave birth, so Salome felt her up, which caused her 101 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: arm to wither away. At the end of the piece, 102 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: Meilee concludes that this event probably never happened. This might 103 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: raise the question if Malee didn't believe the story himself, 104 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: then why did he spread it? After all, all, the 105 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: Salome story, like the Pope Joan story, was not widely known. 106 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: Mainly wasn't debunking a popular rumor. He was simply telling 107 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: the story and then mentioning that he didn't find it plausible. 108 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: Pope Joan scholar Elaine Borough argues that Dominican writers of 109 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: that era emphasized quantity over quality. Part of this was 110 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: politically motivated. After the end of the Crusades, the Catholic 111 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: Church had more cultural power than ever, and they flexed 112 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 1: that power by trying to explain and account for anything 113 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: and everything, even traditions that seemed to challenge the Catholic 114 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: Church's authority. Reproducing rumors, even ones that cast doubt on 115 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: the authority of the Catholic Church or undermined biblical accounts, 116 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: made them less threatening. Recording rumors and apocrypha was also 117 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: a matter of religious doctrine. According to the Bible, Jesus 118 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: appeared in the middle of human history rather than in 119 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 1: the beginning, suggesting that a seismic divine event could occur 120 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: at any time. Therefore, it was crucial that Catholic writers 121 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: document any rumor because it may gain religious significance later. 122 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,199 Speaker 1: In the minds of these writers, it would be way 123 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: worse to leave out a potentially significant event than it 124 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: would be to spread a rumor that turned out to 125 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: be irrelevant or untrue. Other Catholic writers would echo this 126 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: logic when reproducing the story of Pope Joan. For centuries 127 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: after that first story was originally published, it became something 128 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: of a self fulfilling prophecy. The story had become so 129 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: widespread that it would be weirder not to include it. 130 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 1: One Catholic writer, Platina, would say this explicitly when he 131 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: wrote his version of the story of Pope Joan in 132 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 1: fourteen seventy nine, writing that he wasn't certain that Pope 133 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: Joan actually existed, but he did not want quote to 134 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: omit too obstinately and tenaciously what everyone affirms. Peer pressure 135 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: wasn't the only reason the story gained traction. Another reason 136 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: the story spread was that it was useful in clearing 137 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: up some inconsistencies around papal infallibility. Around the time that 138 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: Pope Joan appeared in the record in the twelve fifties, 139 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: monks were pretty unhappy with the pope, Pope Innocent the Fourth, 140 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: who limited Franciscan monk's right to preach and hear confession. 141 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: This made the pope hugely unpopular, but he was difficult 142 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: to criticize because, according to Catholic doctrine, he was ordained 143 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: by God to rule. By suggesting that a woman could 144 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: have ascended to the papacy, the Pope Joan story showed 145 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: that the Church had made mistakes before, so it wouldn't 146 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: be out of the question if it allowed an unworthy 147 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 1: man like Pope Innocent to rule. In twelve seventy nine, 148 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: an archbishop Martin of Opava emphasized that reading when he 149 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 1: published another account of the female pope in his book 150 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: of Legends. He explained that Pope Joan was intelligent and 151 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: well respected, and that she was unanimously elected to the papacy. 152 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: Even so, her reign was invalid because a woman could 153 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: not be pope, suggesting that pope's could be illegitimate even 154 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: if they were elected fairly. It's worth noting that we 155 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: don't know for sure whether or not Martin of Opava 156 00:11:54,360 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: actually intended to include the Pope Joan story in his work. 157 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 1: Doesn't appear in early editions of the book, and the 158 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: story actually first appears in editions of the book around 159 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: thirteen oh four in different handwriting, leading many scholars to 160 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:16,439 Speaker 1: believe the story was added later by a different writer. Still, 161 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: Martin of Opava's story became the definitive account of Pope Joan. 162 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: His book was a best seller, and it spread the 163 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: rumor throughout Europe, getting translated into several languages. It wasn't 164 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: just popular, it was also the first version of the 165 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: story that actually attempted to give historical evidence for her reign. 166 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: Opava gave the pope a name John, which would later 167 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 1: be feminized to Joan. He changed the date of her 168 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: reign from eleven hundred to the eight fifties, and suggested 169 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: that she ruled after Pope Leo the fourth. It's unclear 170 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: how he came up with these details. There was a 171 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: Pope John John the eighth in the eight hundreds. Like Joan, 172 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: his reign was brief. He reconciled a schism between Western 173 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: and Eastern branches of Catholicism through compromise, which many fellow 174 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: Catholics considered weak and quote womanish Opava may have conflated 175 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: criticisms of his quote effeminate nature into the idea that 176 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: he was actually a woman disguised as a man the 177 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: whole time. It also wasn't totally out of the question 178 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: for a woman to have sought political power through the 179 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: Church at that time. In the tenth century, there was 180 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: what people called a government of harlots, or later a 181 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: pornocracy in Rome, where a few wives and mistresses of 182 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: noblemen attempted to manipulate papal succession from behind the scenes. 183 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:05,079 Speaker 1: A noble woman in Rome named Theodora advanced several men 184 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: to the papacy, one of whom she allegedly slept with 185 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: and another who had a child with her daughter, Morosia. 186 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: Morosia herself would later advance her own son to the papacy. 187 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: People mockingly called these women popouses, since these women seemed 188 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: to be the true source of political power and influence, 189 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: puppeting their popes to advance their own agendas. Many of 190 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: those popes were also named John, connecting those accounts to 191 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: Martin of Opava's story. These hypotheseses aren't perfect. The dates 192 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: don't line up. Opava thought that Joan reigned in eight 193 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: point fifty, while the quote effeminate Pope John the Eighth 194 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 1: held the throne in eight seventy, and Theodora and Morosia 195 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 1: rose to power in the nine hundreds. Still, they suggest 196 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: that there was a pervasive anxiety in the Catholic Church 197 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: about the influence of women and femininity in religious life, 198 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: which brings us to another reason the story of Pope 199 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: Joan proved useful to the Catholic Church. It discouraged women 200 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: from pursuing political power within the church. Another writer from 201 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: the twelve hundreds, at Tande bourbonc published a fiery polemic 202 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: about Pope Joan, suggesting she was a harlot who had 203 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: what he called quote the audacity or rather insanity to 204 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: become pope. According to him, Joan solicits the help of 205 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: the devil himself, who helps her achieve her political ambitions. 206 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: This version of the story has a clear moral the 207 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: Church should be wary of wily women with the audacity 208 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: to seek religious power, because it clearly means they are 209 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: in league with the devil. Opava and Bourbon's version of 210 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: the Pope Joan stories couldn't be more different. Opava's account 211 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: is even keeled, based in true or not what purports 212 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: to be historical detail, and it's slightly critical of the 213 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: Catholic Church, while Bourbone's account is salacious, over the top 214 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: and fiercely defensive of the Church, suggesting that the only 215 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: way a woman could have become pope was through black magic. 216 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: But still, the differences in these stories suggest that Pope 217 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: Joan was useful to Catholic writers with a variety of 218 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: styles and agendas. By the fourteen hundreds, the story of 219 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 1: Pope Joan had become so widespread that Pope jon became 220 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: even more entrenched in the Catholic canon, beyond just compilations 221 00:16:55,880 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: of legends. When the Duomo of Siena commissioned a series 222 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: wories of busts of past popes to display in the 223 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:09,959 Speaker 1: giant ornate Cathedral, they included Pope Joan, proudly displaying her 224 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 1: alongside seminole figures in Catholic history. The bust of Pope 225 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:20,360 Speaker 1: Joan wouldn't last forever. Two centuries later, on August seventh, 226 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: sixteen hundred, the Governor of Sienna delivered an edict commanding 227 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: quote remove the pope ess from the cathedral. Just two 228 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: days later, the bust of the Pope est was altered 229 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 1: to depict Pope Zacharias, essentially disguising Joan as a man 230 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: once more. This was the culmination of the work of 231 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 1: Florimond de Raymond, who had campaigned for months to have 232 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: the bust removed, suggesting that the legend was a hoax. 233 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: This event, the bust removal, marks a massive shift in 234 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: the Pope Joan story. The ledgend had lasted for almost 235 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: four hundred years without question, but now people were calling 236 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: the story blasphemous. So what happened in fourteen fifteen, more 237 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: than four hundred years after she supposedly lived. Pope Joan 238 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: appeared in an unlikely place, a heresy trial. The defendant, 239 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 1: Jan Hus, was a czech Man who was once the 240 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 1: rector for Prague University, but he had turned his back 241 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: on the Church and became its best known critic. He 242 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: was especially harsh about the sinful behavior of clergy, bishops, 243 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: and even the papacy, arguing that the true authority of 244 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: Catholicism wasn't the Pope but Christ himself. Unlike Jesus, who 245 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: was infallible, popes and other clergy were subject to the 246 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: same sinful urgent as everyone else. This belief was controversial, 247 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: especially for the Catholic higher ups who capitalized off of 248 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 1: their presumed infallibility. Hughes had been dragged to Constance, a 249 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 1: small university town in Germany, to defend his beliefs in 250 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: court or be executed. At the trial, he was asked 251 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: to give examples of sinful or illegitimate popes. He listed 252 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: a few, but the clergy struck each of them down 253 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: one by one, with a single exception, Pope Joan. Hughes 254 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: had written earlier in the century that Pope Joan was 255 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: proof that quote, the most unlettered layman or a female 256 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: or a heretic and Antichrist may be Pope end quote. 257 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,919 Speaker 1: The clergy, which had been disproving and discrediting us at 258 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:59,640 Speaker 1: every turn, could not challenge him on this point. This 259 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: event mark's a turning point in the legend of Pope Joan. 260 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 1: When it initially appeared, the Pope Joan myth was pretty harmless. 261 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 1: It was a fanciful, salacious rumor that actually proved useful 262 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: as a way for the Church to explore and explain 263 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: doctrinal inconsistencies. But now Pope Joan was being used by 264 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: enemies of the Church as a way to challenge the 265 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: Pope's very existence. It wasn't just use using Joan to 266 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: undermine the authority of the pope. At this time, the 267 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: Catholic Church was in a political crisis. It had managed 268 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: to elect two popes, one based in Rome and another 269 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: in Avignon, who were fighting for legitimacy. A council in 270 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: Pisa tried to resolve this by picking a new pope altogether, 271 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: but this plan backfired. The two deposed popes stood their 272 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: ground and kept control over their territories, so instead of 273 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: one pope, Pisa now meant that there were three. While 274 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,479 Speaker 1: a pseudo pope like Joan may have been a funny 275 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 1: anomaly in the thirteenth century. By the fifteenth century, with 276 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,679 Speaker 1: illegitimate popes and anti popes cropping up right and left, 277 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: it was less funny. In the bitter debate about what 278 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: to do with all of those popes, both sides used 279 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: Joan to defend their positions. On the one hand, Pope 280 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: Joan proved that there was a precedent for governing bodies 281 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: to depose of an unfit pope. On the other hand, 282 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: Pope Joan was a warning that deposing a pope could 283 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: cause chaos because, according to another legend, after Pope Joan 284 00:21:55,400 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: was executed, Catholic leadership struggled to replace her church was 285 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: left popeless for two years. This reasoning was accidentally kind 286 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: of progressive, because these thinkers are arguing that Pope Joan 287 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: should have stayed in power and that it was better 288 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: to have a female pope than no pope at all. 289 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: And even though hus was successfully convicted of heresy and 290 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: burned at the stake, his threat to the church only 291 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: grew stronger after his death. His execution sparked a new 292 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: religious movement, the Hussites, who rejected core Catholic doctrines like 293 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: Latin masses, the veneration of Saints, and even churches. The 294 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 1: movement started expanding across Bohemia. They too brought up Pope 295 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: Joan as evidence that Church authorities were not infallible. In 296 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: fourteen fifty one, the Bishop of Siena traveled to a 297 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: Hussate stronghold in Tubor to debate them on that point. 298 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: To discredit them, he undermined the veracity of the Pope 299 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:10,360 Speaker 1: Joan story, albeit in a fairly weak way, saying tentatively 300 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: quote the story is not certain. This moment foreshadows the 301 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: way the Catholic Church would majorly turn on Pope Joan 302 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: in the sixteenth century, as threats to the Church's authority 303 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: continued to spread, while the Holy Roman Empire managed to 304 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: quash the Hussite Revolution by the end of the fifteenth century. 305 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 1: In fifteen seventeen, a new threat to the Catholic Church 306 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: emerged in the form of Martin Luther's ninety five Theses. Luther, 307 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: like jan Hesse and the Hussites, would invoke Pope Joan. 308 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 1: In one of Luther's informal talks, he mentioned seeing a 309 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 1: statue of Joan during a trip to Rome, but he 310 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 1: didn't make much of it. Instead, he wonders why the 311 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: Church would put such an embarrassing object on public display, 312 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: which is actually a pretty effective dis Though Martin Luther 313 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 1: himself didn't spend much time delving into Pope Joan, he 314 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: would of course spark the Protestant Reformation, which in turn 315 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 1: caused an avalanche of Pope Joan discourse. From fifteen fifty 316 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 1: to seventeen hundred, Protestants and Catholics would produce at least 317 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: forty pamphlets devoted exclusively to Pope Joan, which doesn't include reprints, 318 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 1: new editions, translations, and publications that are lost that are 319 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 1: cited in surviving texts. Protestants started this century's long debate 320 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,439 Speaker 1: in the fifteen fifties, seizing on Joan as proof that 321 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church was toast. In fifteen fifty six, Italian 322 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 1: Protestant Pierre Paolo Bulgario argued in over the top fiery 323 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:07,400 Speaker 1: prose that Joan seized the papacy by magical arts and 324 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: gave the Catholic Church a whore for a leader and 325 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: a mother for a father. John Calvin, the Protestant who 326 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 1: would inspire his own namesake Christian sect, Calvinism went even further. 327 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: According to him, not only did Pope jon prove that 328 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: individual popes could sin, she also potentially undermined the whole 329 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: structure of the Catholic Church. He argued that Catholic bishops 330 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: couldn't claim to be directly descendants of Jesus's apostles if 331 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: a fraudulent pope disrupted the chain. Similarly, in the two 332 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: years she allegedly reigned, Pope Joan would have ordained priests 333 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: and bishops, and those priests and bishops would have gone 334 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: on to ordain other priests and bishops, and so on 335 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: and so on, and so. If Pope Joan was illegitimate, 336 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 1: her bishops and priests would be two, and so would 337 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: all of the bishops and priests in their downlines. By 338 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: that logic, the existence of Pope Joan could potentially render 339 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: the entire structure of the Catholic Church illegitimate. Though Pope 340 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: Joan had originally been a Catholic propaganda tool, after decades 341 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,679 Speaker 1: of watching the Protestants use her to discredit them, the 342 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: Catholic Church had enough. In fifteen sixty two, they finally 343 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 1: decided to fire back with a book by Anophrio Panvinio, 344 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: which set out to definitively disprove the Pope jon myth 345 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: for the final time. Like the Bishop of Siena who 346 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,120 Speaker 1: had argued about Joan with the Hussites in fourteen fifty, 347 00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 1: Aenophrio took a reasonable cautious approach to undermine the story, 348 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 1: focusing on the lack of documentary evidence, the confusing dates, 349 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: and the tentative language in even the earliest retellings of 350 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: the story. In fifteen eighty seven, a French Catholic writer 351 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 1: named Flora and Raymond made a much bigger splash in 352 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 1: his book length debunking of the Pope Joan myth. He 353 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 1: argued that the introduction of Pope Joan in the thirteenth 354 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:33,439 Speaker 1: century was actually part of a German anti Catholic conspiracy. 355 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 1: He thought that the Germans, who in his mind, were 356 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: too promiscuous, wanted to undermine the Church's chastity. Those licentious 357 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: Germans created this salacious story to make the Church seem 358 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: hypocritical and giving them more licensed to sleep around. This 359 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 1: was a bizarre claim, founded more on Raymond's bias against 360 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: Germans than on any historical facts. Pope Jone. Historian Elainborough 361 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: says that Raymond swung for the fences rhetorically speaking because 362 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:16,679 Speaker 1: of his quote relatively unenlightened mind end quote. Nevertheless, in 363 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: his big mic drop moment, Raymond suggested that it was 364 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:25,400 Speaker 1: ironic that the Protestants were so fixated on Pope jan 365 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: when they were under the spell of their own female 366 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 1: usurper of religious authority, namely Queen Elizabeth I, who declared 367 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: herself the leader of the Anglican Church after becoming Queen 368 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: of England. Raymond's rebuttal pushed the Protestants to get even 369 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: more conspiratorial. In sixteen ten, Alexander Cook wrote an elaborate, 370 00:28:55,440 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: fervid defense of Pope Jones's existence to match the Rams 371 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:06,479 Speaker 1: and Takedown. Echoing contemporary clickbait, Cook bragged that Catholics quote 372 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 1: hate him. Cook claimed that the lack of documentary evidence 373 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: for Joan pointed to a Catholic cover up. According to Cook, 374 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:21,479 Speaker 1: Catholics were intentionally destroying textual evidence of Pope Joan in 375 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: order to suppress her threats to the papal line of succession. 376 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: The claim was just not true. If anything, Catholics of 377 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: the fourteenth century were the Ones, adding in the story 378 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: of Pope Joan into older texts to make her seem 379 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: more legitimate. But in his enthusiasm to prove the existence 380 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: of Pope Joan, it's pretty apparent that Alexander Cook lost 381 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: the forest for the trees a little bit. One of 382 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: the main tenets of Protestantism is that the Bible was 383 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: the core of religious life, rather than legends of saints 384 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: or elaborate ritual like Latin masses or ornate churches and cathedrals. 385 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: Without documentary evidence of Pope Joan, Cook was turning to 386 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: exactly the random books of legends and paintings that Protestants 387 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: like Martin Luther and Jan Hess built their careers on. Repudiating. 388 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: The massive reversal suggested how far the Pope Jones story 389 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: had come. The story became so symbolically important that it 390 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: had Catholics turning on each other and Protestants lionizing Catholic apocrypha. 391 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: David Blondell, a seventeenth century Calvinist minister and writer, recognized 392 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 1: the absurdity of the situation. In sixteen forty seven, he 393 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: broke with his fellow Protestants and wrote a debunking of 394 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: the Pope Jones story, which many considered a betrayal of 395 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: the cause. Looking back on the time fifty years later, 396 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: one source says, quote would it not have been better 397 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: to leave the Papists the trouble of wiping their own 398 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: filth away? End? Quote? Some even thought that he must 399 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: have been in league with the Catholics, but it seems 400 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: that Blundell was just motivated by the truth, and many 401 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: Protestants and Catholics were convinced by Blundell's account Because of 402 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: his unbiased approach. One could take issue with the Jones 403 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: story for reasons other than defending Catholicism. After Blundell published 404 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: his book, The Pace of Pope Joan, articles slowed down 405 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: on both sides. Blundell set the stage for the modern 406 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: attitude about Pope Joan that the story was largely a hoax. 407 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: You might think that this was the last we'd hear 408 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: about Pope Joan, But it turns out that the legend 409 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: of the female Pope would take on a life of 410 00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: its own in the secular world, a life that would 411 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: keep her legend alive for centuries to come. While the 412 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: Catholics and Protestants were having their own centuries long flame 413 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: war about Pope Jones's clerical legitimacy. Joan was gaining traction 414 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: in the secular world as a folk hero, perhaps to 415 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: the Church's chagrin. The Pope Jones story had broad appeal. 416 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: What's not to love about a wily, plucky woman who 417 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: outsmarted the church and also managed to get laid while 418 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: doing it. In thirteen sixty, long before the Protestant Revolution 419 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: and a century after the first mention of Pope Joan, 420 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: Italian writer Giovanni Boccaccio included a particularly salacious version of 421 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: the story in his book On Faces Women, a compilation 422 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 1: of stories of notable women from myth and history. Unlike 423 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: his religious contemporaries, Boccaccio didn't care whether or not Joan 424 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: was legitimate or an illegitimate pope. Instead, he focused on 425 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: the more lurid aspects of her story, her alleged lust 426 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: for sex, knowledge, and power. Boccaccio's story begins with Pope 427 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: Joan falling in love with a student and accompanying him 428 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: to Athens, disguising herself as a man to be able 429 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: to pursue her studies as well as to be able 430 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: to pursue her true love. In sort of an Ellwood's 431 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: legally blonde situation. But when her lover dies, she continues 432 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: her pursuit of religious knowledge as a tribute to him, 433 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: and Joan becomes so widely recognized for her intellect that 434 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: she is disguised as a man and unanimously elected Pope. 435 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: The Devil doesn't enter the picture until after she's elected. Pope. 436 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: The Devil encourages her to give in to temptation and 437 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 1: start sleeping around, which she does. She gets pregnant, and 438 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,600 Speaker 1: the Romans discover her deception and stone her to death. 439 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: In the ending shared by most Pope Joan accounts that said, 440 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: in a stark departure from other Pope Jone stories, Boccaccio 441 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: celebrates Joan for remarkable achievements, whether those achievements are eloping 442 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 1: with her lover, cross dressing, advancing as a scholar, or 443 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: pursuing clerical power. It's only after she starts seducing other 444 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: men that Boccaccio begins to criticize her. Her tragic downfall 445 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: is that she refused to remain loyal to her dead lover, 446 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,959 Speaker 1: even though she fell prey to lust. Eventually, Boccaccio's Pope 447 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: Joan was a sympathetic portra of a woman as she 448 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:06,919 Speaker 1: amassed power. What gave Boccaccio's Pope Joan's story such remarkable 449 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 1: staying power wasn't just that it was sympathetic to Joan, 450 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: but that it presented Joan as an archetype rather than 451 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: a historical figure. Women usually got political power in history 452 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: through familial succession or through marriage, and they tended to 453 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 1: express that power by manipulating men in their lives, at 454 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,919 Speaker 1: least according to the stories women like Theodora or Morosia 455 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: the Mother Daughter power duo from the nine hundreds. But 456 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:43,320 Speaker 1: in Boccaccio's story, Pope Joan gained her power through a meritocracy, 457 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: and she exercised it fairly. She was elected into the 458 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 1: papacy as a result of her scholarly achievements and her 459 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 1: ability to deceive the Romans by disguising herself as a man. 460 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:02,359 Speaker 1: Illustrated editions of Boccaccio's book spread the story of Pope 461 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 1: Joan throughout Europe, with images of her sitting placidly on 462 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 1: the throne, wearing her papal robes and an ornate triple tiara. 463 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 1: These images of Pope Joan found their way into a 464 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:20,760 Speaker 1: tarot card deck, which was introduced into Europe around fourteen fifty. 465 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 1: Tarot decks, like decks of playing cards, include various suits 466 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: and numbers that a tarot reader interprets to tell you 467 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 1: your fortune. But what distinguishes tarot decks from regular old 468 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: playing cards are special symbolic cards like the World and 469 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: the Moon, and these cards form what's called the major arcana. 470 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 1: One card of the major Arcana is the High Priestess. 471 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 1: Back in the fourteen hundreds, when the taro was initially 472 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:57,879 Speaker 1: introduced to Europe, this card was the pope Us. The 473 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 1: oldest surviving tarot deck, commissioned in fourteen fifty by Filippo 474 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,360 Speaker 1: Maria Visconti, Duke of Milan, and by his successor and 475 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: son in law, includes an image of the popis one 476 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,400 Speaker 1: that resembles the wood cut prints of Joan from the 477 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 1: Boccaccio illustrations. In this image, hand painted with silver and 478 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 1: gold leaf, the Popess sits on a throne, holding a 479 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: pontifical staff and wearing the typical papal triple tiara, much 480 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:35,360 Speaker 1: like the Boccaccio illustrations. It wasn't until the late seventeen 481 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 1: hundreds that the popess would transform into the high priestess. 482 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: In the midst of the French Revolution, the Catholic Church 483 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:48,480 Speaker 1: was considered unpopular and corrupt. French tarot decks began to 484 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: decenter images of the clergy, a shift that would eventually 485 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 1: result in the development of the high priestess card in 486 00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:01,239 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century. But while Pope Joan was being scrubbed 487 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: from the tarot deck, she was about to have a 488 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: major moment of resurgence in revolutionary France. In seventeen ninety 489 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:14,800 Speaker 1: three alone, three plays about Pope Joan debuted in France, 490 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: all body farces aimed at satirizing the monarchy and the 491 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 1: Catholic Church. Like Boccaccio's version of the Pope jon myth, 492 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 1: these plays had almost no interest in confirming or denying 493 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: the veracity of the story. Instead, they held up Joan 494 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 1: as something of a folk hero, willing to thumb her 495 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: nose at the Church's authority in the pursuit of true love. 496 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 1: But even as Pope Joan established herself firmly as a 497 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: folklore figure, even today, there are some scholars who stubbornly 498 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 1: assert that Joan could have been a real historical figure 499 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 1: in spite of the lack of evidence. After all, even 500 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: from the few primary sources presented in this episode, I 501 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: think it's pretty clear that the textual record is contentious 502 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 1: and confusing. Some scholars think that the primary sources were 503 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,719 Speaker 1: later altered to provide proof of Pope Jones's existence, but 504 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,680 Speaker 1: others think, like the Protestants in the sixteen hundreds, that 505 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,760 Speaker 1: the lack of documentary evidence is more likely a result 506 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 1: of Catholics frantically scrubbing the pope ess from the archive. 507 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: There is always the possibility that some historian might stumble 508 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 1: upon a long buried primary source that proves that Pope 509 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 1: Joan was a real historical figure. Stranger things have happened, 510 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 1: But until then, it is Joan's ambiguity that makes her compelling, 511 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 1: at least in my mind. How she was manipulated and used, reinterpreted, 512 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 1: and trotted out as evidence on every side of multiple debates. Joan, 513 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 1: even in legendary form, fueled centuries of resistance to the 514 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: Church's misdeeds from the Protestant Reformation all the way through 515 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 1: the French Revolution. History is a slippery thing, and it 516 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 1: doesn't work like simple fables with morals. At the end 517 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,320 Speaker 1: of the story. But if the moral of Pope jones 518 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,799 Speaker 1: story is resist the constraints of the institutions you're in 519 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:27,240 Speaker 1: to fight for more equal opportunities, then that's a pretty 520 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:37,120 Speaker 1: good lesson. That's the story of the myth of Pope Joan. 521 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,320 Speaker 1: Keep listening after a brief sponsor break to hear about 522 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 1: one of the silliest myths that still persists in Jon's legacy. 523 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 1: A corollary of the Pope Jone myth was that because 524 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 1: a woman snuck into the papacy, their needs to be 525 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 1: a final check at the end of the pope election 526 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: to make sure that all elected popes were male. According 527 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:11,400 Speaker 1: to legend, popes had to sit on a special chair 528 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,240 Speaker 1: with a hole in it so that someone could reach 529 00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 1: up through the hole and make sure that the Pope 530 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 1: to be had testicles. This myth appeared initially in around 531 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,960 Speaker 1: twelve ninety in an account of Pope Joan from a 532 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:31,400 Speaker 1: Benedictine monk. He wrote, quote it is said that this 533 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,360 Speaker 1: is why Romans established the custom of verifying the sex 534 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,120 Speaker 1: of the elected pope through an opening in a stone 535 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:44,360 Speaker 1: throne end quote. At around the same time, another Dominican 536 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 1: monk wrote of a spiritual vision he had where quote 537 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,239 Speaker 1: the Spirit of the Lord took hold of him and 538 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,600 Speaker 1: placed him in Rome, where he saw the chair for himself. 539 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,720 Speaker 1: In the next few hundred years, much like the Pope 540 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,759 Speaker 1: Joan myth, the the Chair ritual myth took on a 541 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 1: life of its own and became known as the Right 542 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: of Verification. Unlike the Pope Joan myth, the Right of 543 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:16,279 Speaker 1: Verification had more solid evidence for its existence. There are 544 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 1: some eyewitness accounts of the ritual, and not just visions 545 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 1: guided by the Holy Spirit. In fourteen oh four, someone 546 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,719 Speaker 1: mentioned that they saw the Pope elect sit on a 547 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,759 Speaker 1: stone throne as part of his inauguration, but it's not 548 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 1: hard to poke holes in that account because the person 549 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,320 Speaker 1: who wrote it wasn't a member of the Roman Curia, 550 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 1: so he wouldn't have been able to see the ritual 551 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,440 Speaker 1: in the first place. There was another account of the 552 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:48,960 Speaker 1: Right of Verification from someone who was actually in the Curia, 553 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:54,160 Speaker 1: a humanist and member of the Roman Academy named Platina 554 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 1: that you might remember from earlier in this episode, but 555 00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 1: his version only complied Kate the historical record, since he 556 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,840 Speaker 1: claimed that the stone throne with a hole in the 557 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 1: seat wasn't used to verify the pope's sex, but rather 558 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:15,360 Speaker 1: it was used as a toilet. He wrote, quote that 559 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,439 Speaker 1: seat was prepared in such a manner so that one 560 00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 1: who is invested with such great domination will know that 561 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:27,640 Speaker 1: he is not God but a man, so he must defecate. 562 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:33,120 Speaker 1: End quote. It turns out, starting in ten ninety nine, 563 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:37,160 Speaker 1: a pope had to sit on a perforated marble throne 564 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 1: as part of the papal election ritual, and in keeping 565 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 1: with the spirit of Platina's explanation, it was meant to 566 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,800 Speaker 1: humble the pope in a moment that he was about 567 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:53,799 Speaker 1: to gain absolute power. The ritual was relatively uncontroversial it 568 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:58,680 Speaker 1: was performed up until fifteen thirteen, but the Pope Joan 569 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:03,440 Speaker 1: Myth added a rectale for the perforated chair and imbued 570 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,719 Speaker 1: the ritual with a scandalous origin story, which allowed it 571 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:13,600 Speaker 1: to become sensationalized and exaggerated for centuries. In tandem with 572 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:18,440 Speaker 1: the Pope Joan Myth, the quote right of verification became 573 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,719 Speaker 1: a hot topic during the Protestant Reformation, although it was 574 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:27,520 Speaker 1: less existentially threatening to the Catholic Church after all, As 575 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:32,000 Speaker 1: scholar Tom Noble wrote, quote in the early sixteenth century, 576 00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 1: several writers with grim humor said that the right had 577 00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,560 Speaker 1: fallen out of use because recent popes had so many 578 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:44,840 Speaker 1: bastard children that their sex was not in doubt. Meanwhile, 579 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:48,279 Speaker 1: flormand Durraymond, who you might remember as the one who 580 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:52,440 Speaker 1: thought that the Pope Joan story was a blasphemous, horny 581 00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:58,560 Speaker 1: German conspiracy theory, was relatively chill about the right of verification. 582 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,400 Speaker 1: He wrote, so that the whole thing was quote so 583 00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: gross that the only good response for Catholics was to 584 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:15,759 Speaker 1: laugh at the Protestants who repeated it. Noble Blood is 585 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,959 Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Radio and Grim and Mild from 586 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:24,040 Speaker 1: Aaron Manky. Noble Blood is created and hosted by me 587 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:29,280 Speaker 1: Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and researching by Hannah Johnston, 588 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:34,480 Speaker 1: Hannah Zwick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender, and Lori Goodman. The 589 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:38,760 Speaker 1: show is edited and produced by Noemi Griffin and rima 590 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:44,799 Speaker 1: Il Kahali, with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive producers 591 00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:49,640 Speaker 1: Aaron Manke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts 592 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:55,280 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts, or wherever 593 00:45:55,320 --> 00:46:30,800 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.