WEBVTT - Tim Harford Cools Us Down This Summer

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin Hello, Revisionous History listeners. Malcolm Glabble here. We're on

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<v Speaker 1>summer break, but we'll be back in September with four

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<v Speaker 1>brand new episodes of the show. Meanwhile, I hope you're

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<v Speaker 1>staying cool, and to help you with that challenge, I

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<v Speaker 1>have a little something that will plunge you into a

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<v Speaker 1>world of freezing cold. It's an epic tale that comes

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<v Speaker 1>by way of my good friend and fellow Pushkin nite

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<v Speaker 1>Tim Harford over at his podcast Cautionary Tales. He has

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<v Speaker 1>a fantastic trilogy about Antarctica and a treacherous race between

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<v Speaker 1>two explorers chasing one another across the frigid waste of

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<v Speaker 1>the world's least hospitable continent. There are blizzards, dogs, frostbite, scurvy,

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<v Speaker 1>and epic mistakes. Fortunately, the whole point of Cautionary Tales

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<v Speaker 1>is to learn from other people's mistakes. Good the mistake,

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<v Speaker 1>the more you can learn. After I listened to this series,

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<v Speaker 1>I had to call Tim literally one hundred percent of

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<v Speaker 1>that was new to me. One hundred percent. It was

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<v Speaker 1>so great. I was like, this is fantastic. Who knew

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<v Speaker 1>all this crazy stuff? Like, okay, before we get to

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<v Speaker 1>more of my conversation with Tim, you should probably hear

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<v Speaker 1>a taste of this crazy stuff. So let's listen to

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<v Speaker 1>some of his first Antarctica story and then follow up

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<v Speaker 1>with my chance to ask Tim all the burning or freezing,

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<v Speaker 1>as the case may be, questions. Here's Tim with cautionary tales.

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<v Speaker 2>In June nineteen ten, two ships set sail from Europe.

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<v Speaker 2>One of them was captain by Robert Falcon Scott of

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<v Speaker 2>the British Navy, representing the most powerful empire the world

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<v Speaker 2>had ever seen. The other ship was led by Roald

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<v Speaker 2>Amundsen of Norway, a small country that had gained its

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<v Speaker 2>indo dedans just five years before. Both men had the

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<v Speaker 2>same goal. They burned to be the first in history

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<v Speaker 2>to reach the South Pole, planting their national flag. This

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't about imperial conquest. The South Pole had no gold,

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<v Speaker 2>or spices or slaves. It was all about the symbolism.

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<v Speaker 2>The age of exploration was largely over. Most of the

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<v Speaker 2>world had been thoroughly mapped, with one big exception the

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<v Speaker 2>vast interior of the icy continent of Antarctica. No human

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<v Speaker 2>feet had ever trodden on the Earth's most southerly point.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, the British wanted to be the first to

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<v Speaker 2>reach it. Over the centuries, they'd grown used to thinking

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<v Speaker 2>of themselves as the greatest explorers in the world. Robert

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<v Speaker 2>Scott's British ship carried what one historian called the largest,

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<v Speaker 2>best equipped scientific team ever sent to Antarctica. Carried three

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<v Speaker 2>state of the art motorized sleds, along with Siberian dogs

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<v Speaker 2>and ponies, and a crew of sixty five. This little

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<v Speaker 2>army set sail from London in front of a crowd

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<v Speaker 2>of the Empire's finest. The American polar explorer Robert Bartlett

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<v Speaker 2>was there, noting that nobody had ever given him such

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<v Speaker 2>a sendoff. There were gold lace and cock hats, and

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<v Speaker 2>dignitaries enough to run a navy. I couldn't help comparing

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<v Speaker 2>all this formality with the shoddy, almost sneering attitude of

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<v Speaker 2>the American public. One of Scott's crew was almost overwhelmed

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<v Speaker 2>by the crowd of onlookers.

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<v Speaker 3>The cheers from the many thousands of throats barely made

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<v Speaker 3>the air quiver on that glazing summer afternoon.

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<v Speaker 2>Rolled Amundsen's Norwegian vessel was much smaller. It carried no

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<v Speaker 2>motorized sleds or ponies, only dogs, and a crew of

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<v Speaker 2>just nineteen. It sailed at midnight without ceremony or celebration,

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<v Speaker 2>a ghost ship, slipping out into the Norwegian Fjords. Nobody

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<v Speaker 2>in Norway was excited about Amundson's bold thrust to beat

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<v Speaker 2>the British to the South Pole, and there was a

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<v Speaker 2>reason for that. He had told everyone he was heading

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<v Speaker 2>to the North Pole instead. It's hard to imagine a

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<v Speaker 2>more uneven contest. Scott's expedition was far larger and far

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<v Speaker 2>better funded, underwritten by the British Navy and supported by

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<v Speaker 2>public and private donations from across the British Empire. There

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<v Speaker 2>could be only one winner, and it was already obvious

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<v Speaker 2>who it would be. I'm Tim Harford, and you're listening

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<v Speaker 2>to cautionary tales. Remember the biblical story of David and Goliath.

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<v Speaker 2>An Israelite shepherd boy with the humblest weapon imaginable, a sling,

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<v Speaker 2>defeats Goliath, the Philistine champion, a fully armed man mountain.

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<v Speaker 2>King Saul of the Israelites is against the plan. You

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<v Speaker 2>cannot go against this Philistine, to do battle with him,

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<v Speaker 2>for you are a lad and he is a man

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<v Speaker 2>of war. From his youth, but David fights Goliath anyway

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<v Speaker 2>and wins easily. Malcolm Gladwell's book David and Goliath has

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<v Speaker 2>some interesting things to say about this fight. Goliath wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>quite as fearsome as he seemed. He was at least

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<v Speaker 2>six foot nine, but humans aren't built to be that big.

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<v Speaker 2>One plausible explanation is that Goliath was suffering from a

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<v Speaker 2>medical condition which causes the production of too much growth hormone.

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<v Speaker 2>It also often causes double vision. Goliath looked terrifying, but

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<v Speaker 2>he may well have had difficulty moving and difficulty focusing.

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<v Speaker 2>In the Race to the South Pole, Robert Falcon Scott

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<v Speaker 2>was Goliath, apparently the overwhelming favorite, but in reality in

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<v Speaker 2>a hopeless position. Just in case you don't know how

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<v Speaker 2>the race unfolds, Scott's mission ends in utter failure. For

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<v Speaker 2>more than a century, people have been arguing about why.

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<v Speaker 2>On one side of the argument to those who say

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<v Speaker 2>Scott was terribly unlucky, in particular with the weather. On

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<v Speaker 2>the other side of those who say Scott was an incompetent,

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<v Speaker 2>that he chose the wrong method, took needless risks, and

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<v Speaker 2>at critical moments he made the wrong calls. If it

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't bad luck or bad judgment, then how else could

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<v Speaker 2>such a well resourced expedition fail. But Goliath didn't lose

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<v Speaker 2>because he was unlucky or because he was foolish. He

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<v Speaker 2>lost because the apparent underdog was actually in a vastly

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<v Speaker 2>superior position all along. We'll explore the causes of Scott's

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<v Speaker 2>problems in a moment, but first let's describe the symptoms.

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<v Speaker 2>His expedition was so large that Scott's ship was overloaded

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<v Speaker 2>with men, fuel, motorized sledges, and ponies, and it nearly

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<v Speaker 2>sank before reaching Antarctica. Conditions on ship were miserable. The

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<v Speaker 2>crew ate their meals from a table directly underneath where

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<v Speaker 2>the ponies were being stabled. The yellow substance that dribbled

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<v Speaker 2>down to the cracks in the wooden deck onto their

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<v Speaker 2>table was euphemistically called mustard. Things were hardly more comfortable.

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<v Speaker 2>Once Scott arrived in Antarctica. The British went to a

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<v Speaker 2>base that Scott and others had established years before on

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<v Speaker 2>Ross Island, just off the coast of the Antarctic continent.

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<v Speaker 2>It was further away from the South Pole than where

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<v Speaker 2>Amonson made his base camp, and not without its dangers.

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<v Speaker 2>One man ventured onto an ice flow to photograph some

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<v Speaker 2>killer whales and nearly ended up as their lunch.

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<v Speaker 3>The ship was within sixty yards, and I heard wild

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<v Speaker 3>shouts look out, run, jump man, jump, run quick that

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<v Speaker 3>I could not run.

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<v Speaker 2>It was all I could do to keep my finger

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<v Speaker 2>as I leapt from peace to piece of the rocking ice,

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<v Speaker 2>with the.

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<v Speaker 3>Whales a few yards behind me, snorting and blowing among

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<v Speaker 3>the ice blocks.

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<v Speaker 2>He made it back to safety, with Captain Scott exclaiming,

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<v Speaker 2>my God, that was about the nearest squeak I ever saw.

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<v Speaker 2>Then came the loading of the ship. It did not

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<v Speaker 2>go well.

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<v Speaker 3>We realized that the ice was getting.

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<v Speaker 2>Very rotten, wrote one crewman, But when.

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<v Speaker 3>A message came back from an anxious Scott to hurry

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<v Speaker 3>with the unloading, no one had the courage or the

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<v Speaker 3>sense to ignore it.

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<v Speaker 2>They were unloading one of the three motorized sledges.

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<v Speaker 3>The ship party had got the sledge down onto the ice, when,

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<v Speaker 3>without warning, Williamson went through to his thighs. The motor

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<v Speaker 3>sledge suddenly dipped, The ice gave way, and she fell

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<v Speaker 3>with all her weight vertically on the rope. The rope

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<v Speaker 3>began cutting through the thin ice. Man after man was

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<v Speaker 3>forced to let go. The sledge is now resting on

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<v Speaker 3>the bottom at a depth of one hundred and twenty fathoms.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a terrifying moment, and an expensive one. Scott

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<v Speaker 2>had paid about as much for his three motorized sledges

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<v Speaker 2>as Amondson had raised to fund his entire expedition. After

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<v Speaker 2>months preparing depots and sheltering from the winter, Scott was

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<v Speaker 2>ready to make his attempt at the South Pole. Despite

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<v Speaker 2>the loss of one motor sledge, he still had two

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<v Speaker 2>more of them, plus packs of dogs, a team of ponies,

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<v Speaker 2>and the time honored tradition of the British Navy donning

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<v Speaker 2>harnesses and hauling the sledges by hand with sheer British

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<v Speaker 2>grit and endurance. The British had long experience of this

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<v Speaker 2>man hauling of sledges in polar regions. One disastrous expedition

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<v Speaker 2>to the Arctic in eighteen seventy five required man hauling.

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<v Speaker 2>Here is the conclusion of a survivor. I would confine

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<v Speaker 2>everyone who proposed such a thing in a lunatic asylum,

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<v Speaker 2>burn every sledge in existence, and destroy the patterns long

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<v Speaker 2>experience as I say, but the British Navy had not

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<v Speaker 2>learned from that long experience. With the luxury of these

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<v Speaker 2>varied modes of transport available, Scott chose to try them all.

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<v Speaker 2>You might think that would give him flexibility. Instead it

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<v Speaker 2>constrained him. Scott's ponies were poorly adapted to the cold,

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<v Speaker 2>so he decided to start later in the spring. Even then,

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<v Speaker 2>the ponies struggled. They traveled slowly, hooves sinking deep into

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<v Speaker 2>the snow. Scott decided it would be better for the

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<v Speaker 2>ponies to travel at night, when the colder temperatures might

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<v Speaker 2>mean firmer conditions under their hooves. It was miserable.

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<v Speaker 3>Huge icicles forum under the Pawney's noises during the march.

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<v Speaker 2>Scott's two remaining motorized sledges broke down early in the expedition.

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<v Speaker 2>Nobody on his team had the mechanical expertise to fix them,

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<v Speaker 2>so he had to abandon them and man hauled the

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<v Speaker 2>sledges instead. The man hauled sledges were even slower than

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<v Speaker 2>the ponies. Scott's expedition was a patchwork caravan, on which

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<v Speaker 2>the ponies and the dog sleds had to keep stopping

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<v Speaker 2>to let the man hauled sledges. Keep up.

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<v Speaker 3>The dogs do the march in three hours, and then

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<v Speaker 3>they have little else to do for the rest of

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<v Speaker 3>the day. The dogs are doing splendidly.

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<v Speaker 2>When news reached Scott and his team that Amonson was

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<v Speaker 2>racing them to the poll, they correctly surmised that he

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't have taken ponies and he wouldn't be man hauling

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<v Speaker 2>any sledges.

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<v Speaker 3>I must say that Amundsen's chance of having forestalled us

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<v Speaker 3>looks good.

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<v Speaker 2>After the losses, the accidents, the late start, and the

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<v Speaker 2>slow progress, Scott's defeat was now just a matter of time.

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<v Speaker 2>But why had such a well resourced expedition run into

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<v Speaker 2>so many problems?

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<v Speaker 1>Actually you'll have to subscribe to Cautionary Tales for the

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<v Speaker 1>answer to that question and so much more. But first

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<v Speaker 1>I got to call up Tim Harford and ask him

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<v Speaker 1>so many burning questions or should I say, freezing questions

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<v Speaker 1>what he learned from these Antarctic tales. Here's our conversation, Tim.

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<v Speaker 1>I've listened to all three of your episodes, and I

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<v Speaker 1>must say I liked him very much. I thought it

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<v Speaker 1>was fascinating. I actually knew none.

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<v Speaker 2>Of this at all.

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<v Speaker 1>I couldn't yet it was all kind of a blur

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<v Speaker 1>to me. All of these all of these explorers from

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<v Speaker 1>long ago, and there are all these dimensions that I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't understand. But I wanted to start with this contrast

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<v Speaker 1>between Scott and Ahmudson. The complex thing, and the thing

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<v Speaker 1>that makes it really fascinating is that Scott is really

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<v Speaker 1>the innovator, isn't he.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he sees himself as the scientific innovator. He wants

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<v Speaker 2>to He wants to break ground in terms of exploring

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<v Speaker 2>measuring magnetic fields, discovering new aspects of the flora and

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<v Speaker 2>fungi of Antarctica. There's this crazy side quest they do

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<v Speaker 2>when they're trying to get a penguin egg, which is

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<v Speaker 2>described as the worst journey in the world because they

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<v Speaker 2>have to travel in the entire winter. I mean, it's crazy.

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<v Speaker 2>He's doing technological innovation. He has these three motorized sleds,

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<v Speaker 2>which I think partly paved the way for tanks in

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<v Speaker 2>the First World War. And people who think that Scott

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<v Speaker 2>is awesome emphasize all of this ambition, all of the

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<v Speaker 2>things he was trying to do. But of course Amonson

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<v Speaker 2>just wanted to use the best possible way to get

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<v Speaker 2>to the South Pole first, and actually that was innovative

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<v Speaker 2>in some small ways that the precise design of the

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<v Speaker 2>sled and the kind of containers that won't leak, But

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<v Speaker 2>it was basically using techniques that have been used in

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<v Speaker 2>Greenland by indigenous people for well, I mean, we don't

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<v Speaker 2>know how long, a very long time.

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<v Speaker 1>This is actually what I loved about the story is

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<v Speaker 1>that it's so incredibly contemporary because Scott is really the

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<v Speaker 1>kind of He's the Silicon Valley startup who gets an

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<v Speaker 1>enormous amount of venture funding and proceeds to blow it

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<v Speaker 1>all on a series of ideas and solving problems in

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<v Speaker 1>our problems. And Emerson is the kind of bootstrap entrepreneur

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<v Speaker 1>in the Middle Country that no one's paying attention to,

0:15:12.316 --> 0:15:15.716
<v Speaker 1>who's forced to use the tried and true. The original

0:15:15.796 --> 0:15:19.396
<v Speaker 1>sin sounds like is the fact that Scott was given

0:15:19.436 --> 0:15:20.516
<v Speaker 1>everything he wanted.

0:15:20.436 --> 0:15:22.676
<v Speaker 2>Everything he wanted, plus a lot of baggage he didn't want,

0:15:23.116 --> 0:15:26.396
<v Speaker 2>all kinds of interference and all kinds of people telling

0:15:26.436 --> 0:15:28.036
<v Speaker 2>him they wanted to do this, and they wanted to

0:15:28.036 --> 0:15:29.716
<v Speaker 2>do that, and they wanted to achieve all of these

0:15:29.756 --> 0:15:32.516
<v Speaker 2>great things, which means he can't focus. But yeah, he's

0:15:32.516 --> 0:15:35.036
<v Speaker 2>got far too much. He's got far too much money,

0:15:35.196 --> 0:15:38.316
<v Speaker 2>he's got far too many people. His ship nearly sinks

0:15:38.596 --> 0:15:41.196
<v Speaker 2>simply because it's so overlaiden. There's just so much on

0:15:41.236 --> 0:15:44.556
<v Speaker 2>it that it's nearly capsized by a storm on the

0:15:44.556 --> 0:15:47.916
<v Speaker 2>way to the Antarctic. But Amonson, meanwhile, is not only

0:15:47.996 --> 0:15:51.116
<v Speaker 2>is no one paying attention to him, he's actively engaging

0:15:51.116 --> 0:15:53.516
<v Speaker 2>in disinformation. He's lying to he's even lying to his

0:15:53.556 --> 0:15:56.076
<v Speaker 2>own crew about where he's going. He's telling people he's

0:15:56.076 --> 0:15:59.356
<v Speaker 2>going north and he's actually going south. Yeah, And I

0:15:59.356 --> 0:16:01.276
<v Speaker 2>love the way that you've phrased this is he's a

0:16:01.316 --> 0:16:04.076
<v Speaker 2>Silicon Valley startup because for me, I'm thinking he's a

0:16:04.116 --> 0:16:06.796
<v Speaker 2>British Navy guy. He's kind of a government man. He's

0:16:06.836 --> 0:16:09.996
<v Speaker 2>a military man. He's very bureaucratic. But you're you're seeing

0:16:10.036 --> 0:16:12.556
<v Speaker 2>some a different quality in him and a different problem

0:16:12.556 --> 0:16:13.236
<v Speaker 2>that he's facing.

0:16:13.716 --> 0:16:17.676
<v Speaker 1>He's given everything he wants, and then he as a result,

0:16:17.756 --> 0:16:20.796
<v Speaker 1>he has lots of things he doesn't want. Those two

0:16:20.836 --> 0:16:23.756
<v Speaker 1>things are linked. That's what happens when you get everything

0:16:23.796 --> 0:16:27.236
<v Speaker 1>you want. It's the careful what you wish for problem?

0:16:27.316 --> 0:16:27.476
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:16:27.996 --> 0:16:30.316
<v Speaker 1>The things he don't want are a consequence of getting

0:16:30.316 --> 0:16:32.916
<v Speaker 1>everything he wants in the beginning, he has so many

0:16:32.956 --> 0:16:35.516
<v Speaker 1>people who are pitching in to quote unquote help him

0:16:35.756 --> 0:16:38.676
<v Speaker 1>that he ends up being burdened by all of their expectations,

0:16:38.996 --> 0:16:43.276
<v Speaker 1>which is another Silicon Valley kind of conundrum. The venture

0:16:43.276 --> 0:16:47.556
<v Speaker 1>capitalist gives you fifty million dollars and then has a

0:16:47.556 --> 0:16:50.396
<v Speaker 1>seat at the table and complicates your vision with all

0:16:50.556 --> 0:16:52.556
<v Speaker 1>their sense of where you should be going.

0:16:53.396 --> 0:16:55.876
<v Speaker 2>The funder the bench capitalist in this particular case is

0:16:55.876 --> 0:16:58.356
<v Speaker 2>a guy called Sir Clements Markham, who is just this

0:16:58.516 --> 0:17:03.036
<v Speaker 2>incredibly British, incredibly intimidating fellow. I've got this portrait of

0:17:03.436 --> 0:17:05.676
<v Speaker 2>him and it looks to me like the expression on

0:17:05.676 --> 0:17:08.396
<v Speaker 2>his face is like the photographer has just broken wind,

0:17:08.716 --> 0:17:12.756
<v Speaker 2>and he just looks so unhappy that someone is daring

0:17:12.796 --> 0:17:15.076
<v Speaker 2>to point a camera at him. And he was just

0:17:15.116 --> 0:17:18.356
<v Speaker 2>pulling the strings at the Royal Geographical Society in London

0:17:18.716 --> 0:17:23.076
<v Speaker 2>for decades. He's so tight with Scott and Scott's family

0:17:23.116 --> 0:17:28.796
<v Speaker 2>that Scott names his son Peter after Sir Clements, and

0:17:28.876 --> 0:17:31.636
<v Speaker 2>Scott is clearly terrified of him. And it's one of

0:17:31.676 --> 0:17:33.196
<v Speaker 2>these you know, he put Scott where he is and

0:17:33.236 --> 0:17:36.316
<v Speaker 2>he can put him right back again if he wants to.

0:17:36.756 --> 0:17:38.956
<v Speaker 2>And Sir Clements, who's never been to the Antarctic, who's

0:17:38.996 --> 0:17:41.396
<v Speaker 2>got no idea what it's like down there, just has

0:17:41.436 --> 0:17:44.676
<v Speaker 2>these views. There's obviously there should be no dogs. Everybody

0:17:44.716 --> 0:17:47.836
<v Speaker 2>who knows anything about arctic exploration knows you should use

0:17:47.996 --> 0:17:50.716
<v Speaker 2>dogs for any number of reasons. I explain in the

0:17:50.876 --> 0:17:52.836
<v Speaker 2>in the episodes. But Sir Clements is sitting there in

0:17:52.876 --> 0:17:57.316
<v Speaker 2>London going no nosky, no dogs, and Scott's kind of

0:17:57.396 --> 0:17:58.276
<v Speaker 2>got to do what he says.

0:17:58.436 --> 0:18:01.876
<v Speaker 1>It's so funny that any story about English life in

0:18:01.956 --> 0:18:04.996
<v Speaker 1>this period always boils down to the stupidity of the

0:18:04.996 --> 0:18:11.116
<v Speaker 1>British ruling class. Sir Clement's is such a familiar figure,

0:18:11.436 --> 0:18:17.636
<v Speaker 1>this kind of arrogant, pigheaded authority figure who thinks that,

0:18:17.836 --> 0:18:21.036
<v Speaker 1>who has a kind of abstract notion of the way things.

0:18:20.796 --> 0:18:23.476
<v Speaker 2>Ought to be, yes, absolutely.

0:18:23.196 --> 0:18:25.716
<v Speaker 1>Which triumphs of the way things actually are.

0:18:26.276 --> 0:18:30.436
<v Speaker 2>But the interesting thing for me about Amundson is that

0:18:30.516 --> 0:18:34.756
<v Speaker 2>he also has these certain bureaucratic constraints. So he's the king,

0:18:34.956 --> 0:18:38.396
<v Speaker 2>is the patron of his expedition, and he's got funding

0:18:38.476 --> 0:18:40.836
<v Speaker 2>from the Norwegian government and all this kind of stuff,

0:18:41.156 --> 0:18:43.436
<v Speaker 2>but he just doesn't care. So he lies to the King,

0:18:43.556 --> 0:18:46.756
<v Speaker 2>he lies to Parliament, he's borrowed all this money, and

0:18:46.756 --> 0:18:49.116
<v Speaker 2>then he basically runs away. One of the things he's

0:18:49.116 --> 0:18:51.356
<v Speaker 2>doing going to Antarctica is getting out of reach of

0:18:51.396 --> 0:18:53.836
<v Speaker 2>his creditors, and it's only when they can't impound his

0:18:53.916 --> 0:18:58.316
<v Speaker 2>ship that he actually tells people exactly what he's doing. So, yes,

0:18:58.356 --> 0:19:02.236
<v Speaker 2>it is partly this kind of this hide bound British bureaucracy,

0:19:02.756 --> 0:19:06.956
<v Speaker 2>but it is also Scott's deference to it in a

0:19:06.956 --> 0:19:09.596
<v Speaker 2>way that Amondson was not int Is it for a

0:19:09.636 --> 0:19:10.516
<v Speaker 2>second in any of.

0:19:10.396 --> 0:19:14.076
<v Speaker 1>That, Yeah, to bring up the second Silicon Valley analogy,

0:19:14.836 --> 0:19:18.356
<v Speaker 1>there's a little bit of Elizabeth Holmes in Amonson. It's

0:19:18.396 --> 0:19:19.876
<v Speaker 1>faked to you make it kind of thing.

0:19:20.356 --> 0:19:22.916
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, except he made it, Yeah, except.

0:19:22.676 --> 0:19:25.596
<v Speaker 1>To be made it. But that idea that for someone

0:19:25.636 --> 0:19:30.676
<v Speaker 1>who's attempting something incredibly difficult, that it may be necessary

0:19:30.716 --> 0:19:33.396
<v Speaker 1>at some time to engage an acts of deception at

0:19:33.436 --> 0:19:36.236
<v Speaker 1>the outset, or maybe a better way of saying it

0:19:36.316 --> 0:19:40.516
<v Speaker 1>is that the kind of person who is focused in

0:19:41.916 --> 0:19:46.036
<v Speaker 1>singular enough to pull off a feet like this, is

0:19:46.116 --> 0:19:49.316
<v Speaker 1>willing to engage in deception. Doesn't have any kind of

0:19:49.316 --> 0:19:54.116
<v Speaker 1>moral qualm. Nothing trumps the goal of reaching the South Pole.

0:19:54.436 --> 0:19:56.356
<v Speaker 1>Everything else is secondary, including the truth.

0:19:57.316 --> 0:19:58.996
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and he doesn't seem to have lost any sleep

0:19:59.076 --> 0:20:01.596
<v Speaker 2>over that. And I think Amonson had this very clear

0:20:01.676 --> 0:20:04.156
<v Speaker 2>vision that it would all be forgiven if he succeeded,

0:20:04.516 --> 0:20:07.636
<v Speaker 2>and which I suspect that to the extent that Elizabeth

0:20:07.676 --> 0:20:10.276
<v Speaker 2>Holmes that Theronos had a vision of what was going on.

0:20:10.316 --> 0:20:12.996
<v Speaker 2>But there's the same thing, they'll forgive me once it

0:20:13.036 --> 0:20:13.556
<v Speaker 2>all works.

0:20:13.676 --> 0:20:15.676
<v Speaker 1>Oh, I think she very clearly had that. Tim. I

0:20:15.676 --> 0:20:19.316
<v Speaker 1>think that's absolutely much driving the whole train. There is

0:20:19.316 --> 0:20:22.636
<v Speaker 1>that I can lie and cheat and deceive, because if

0:20:22.636 --> 0:20:23.836
<v Speaker 1>I pull this off, I'm a hero.

0:20:24.196 --> 0:20:24.836
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:20:24.996 --> 0:20:28.596
<v Speaker 1>Tell me a little bit about your personal feelings about

0:20:28.636 --> 0:20:31.436
<v Speaker 1>the two men. I mean, it's clearly you're partial to Amudson.

0:20:31.836 --> 0:20:34.636
<v Speaker 1>If you eat a choice between dining with two of them,

0:20:34.796 --> 0:20:36.636
<v Speaker 1>who's your first choice for dinner tonight?

0:20:37.156 --> 0:20:39.996
<v Speaker 2>Oh? Actually, I think they would both be well, they

0:20:40.036 --> 0:20:42.956
<v Speaker 2>both be interesting, but they would be pretty awkward both ways,

0:20:43.236 --> 0:20:46.196
<v Speaker 2>because I think they both had these huge egos. Amison

0:20:46.276 --> 0:20:49.436
<v Speaker 2>is this antihero. I don't really like either of them

0:20:49.556 --> 0:20:54.676
<v Speaker 2>as people. I'm excited by Amerson's daring and his willingness

0:20:54.676 --> 0:20:57.476
<v Speaker 2>to get things done, and he makes sacrifices and he

0:20:57.596 --> 0:21:00.276
<v Speaker 2>succeeds in the end, and Scott just seems like this

0:21:00.316 --> 0:21:02.916
<v Speaker 2>tragic blunderer. But I'm not trying. I'd really want to

0:21:02.956 --> 0:21:06.276
<v Speaker 2>have dinner with either of them, if I'm honest, Who

0:21:06.316 --> 0:21:07.676
<v Speaker 2>would you rather? Scott?

0:21:08.036 --> 0:21:13.116
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he came away from listening to your episodes liking Amdson,

0:21:13.476 --> 0:21:16.076
<v Speaker 1>and I felt very sorry for him because the world

0:21:16.076 --> 0:21:17.756
<v Speaker 1>doesn't reward him in the way that he ought to

0:21:17.756 --> 0:21:19.316
<v Speaker 1>have been rewarded. He's the hero.

0:21:19.716 --> 0:21:21.116
<v Speaker 2>He made it look too easy, that's the problem.

0:21:21.196 --> 0:21:23.356
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he made it look too easy. But Scott would

0:21:23.436 --> 0:21:26.716
<v Speaker 1>just be fascinating against He's so British, he's so of

0:21:26.716 --> 0:21:29.196
<v Speaker 1>that period. I mean, and you would dine out on

0:21:29.276 --> 0:21:31.756
<v Speaker 1>Scott's stories for the rest of your life. But if

0:21:31.756 --> 0:21:33.556
<v Speaker 1>you had dinner with him, get him try And.

0:21:33.596 --> 0:21:36.756
<v Speaker 2>He was a brilliant storyteller. He did that and the

0:21:36.836 --> 0:21:39.916
<v Speaker 2>story was of the tragic hero, and he was writing

0:21:39.956 --> 0:21:42.276
<v Speaker 2>this story of the tragic hero who's going to fail

0:21:42.716 --> 0:21:44.996
<v Speaker 2>all the way along. It's almost like he knew how

0:21:45.036 --> 0:21:47.756
<v Speaker 2>it was going to end. Yeah, this was so much fun.

0:21:47.756 --> 0:21:50.636
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much, Thank you Tim. It's a wonderful series.