1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:23,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hello, Revisionous History listeners. Malcolm Glabble here. We're on 2 00:00:23,836 --> 00:00:27,036 Speaker 1: summer break, but we'll be back in September with four 3 00:00:27,116 --> 00:00:30,316 Speaker 1: brand new episodes of the show. Meanwhile, I hope you're 4 00:00:30,356 --> 00:00:33,676 Speaker 1: staying cool, and to help you with that challenge, I 5 00:00:33,716 --> 00:00:36,116 Speaker 1: have a little something that will plunge you into a 6 00:00:36,156 --> 00:00:39,396 Speaker 1: world of freezing cold. It's an epic tale that comes 7 00:00:39,436 --> 00:00:42,156 Speaker 1: by way of my good friend and fellow Pushkin nite 8 00:00:42,356 --> 00:00:47,076 Speaker 1: Tim Harford over at his podcast Cautionary Tales. He has 9 00:00:47,116 --> 00:00:51,916 Speaker 1: a fantastic trilogy about Antarctica and a treacherous race between 10 00:00:51,956 --> 00:00:55,476 Speaker 1: two explorers chasing one another across the frigid waste of 11 00:00:55,516 --> 00:01:01,316 Speaker 1: the world's least hospitable continent. There are blizzards, dogs, frostbite, scurvy, 12 00:01:01,396 --> 00:01:06,356 Speaker 1: and epic mistakes. Fortunately, the whole point of Cautionary Tales 13 00:01:06,676 --> 00:01:09,796 Speaker 1: is to learn from other people's mistakes. Good the mistake, 14 00:01:10,036 --> 00:01:13,156 Speaker 1: the more you can learn. After I listened to this series, 15 00:01:13,796 --> 00:01:16,676 Speaker 1: I had to call Tim literally one hundred percent of 16 00:01:16,676 --> 00:01:19,316 Speaker 1: that was new to me. One hundred percent. It was 17 00:01:19,316 --> 00:01:21,836 Speaker 1: so great. I was like, this is fantastic. Who knew 18 00:01:21,836 --> 00:01:25,196 Speaker 1: all this crazy stuff? Like, okay, before we get to 19 00:01:25,276 --> 00:01:27,996 Speaker 1: more of my conversation with Tim, you should probably hear 20 00:01:28,036 --> 00:01:30,796 Speaker 1: a taste of this crazy stuff. So let's listen to 21 00:01:30,876 --> 00:01:33,796 Speaker 1: some of his first Antarctica story and then follow up 22 00:01:33,836 --> 00:01:37,356 Speaker 1: with my chance to ask Tim all the burning or freezing, 23 00:01:37,356 --> 00:01:42,076 Speaker 1: as the case may be, questions. Here's Tim with cautionary tales. 24 00:01:50,076 --> 00:01:54,236 Speaker 2: In June nineteen ten, two ships set sail from Europe. 25 00:01:54,956 --> 00:01:57,676 Speaker 2: One of them was captain by Robert Falcon Scott of 26 00:01:57,676 --> 00:02:01,636 Speaker 2: the British Navy, representing the most powerful empire the world 27 00:02:01,716 --> 00:02:05,156 Speaker 2: had ever seen. The other ship was led by Roald 28 00:02:05,276 --> 00:02:08,836 Speaker 2: Amundsen of Norway, a small country that had gained its 29 00:02:08,836 --> 00:02:13,396 Speaker 2: indo dedans just five years before. Both men had the 30 00:02:13,476 --> 00:02:17,396 Speaker 2: same goal. They burned to be the first in history 31 00:02:17,516 --> 00:02:22,356 Speaker 2: to reach the South Pole, planting their national flag. This 32 00:02:22,556 --> 00:02:26,876 Speaker 2: wasn't about imperial conquest. The South Pole had no gold, 33 00:02:26,956 --> 00:02:32,156 Speaker 2: or spices or slaves. It was all about the symbolism. 34 00:02:32,556 --> 00:02:36,196 Speaker 2: The age of exploration was largely over. Most of the 35 00:02:36,236 --> 00:02:40,836 Speaker 2: world had been thoroughly mapped, with one big exception the 36 00:02:40,996 --> 00:02:47,236 Speaker 2: vast interior of the icy continent of Antarctica. No human 37 00:02:47,276 --> 00:02:50,516 Speaker 2: feet had ever trodden on the Earth's most southerly point. 38 00:02:51,236 --> 00:02:53,156 Speaker 2: Of course, the British wanted to be the first to 39 00:02:53,196 --> 00:02:56,196 Speaker 2: reach it. Over the centuries, they'd grown used to thinking 40 00:02:56,196 --> 00:03:00,476 Speaker 2: of themselves as the greatest explorers in the world. Robert 41 00:03:00,476 --> 00:03:04,756 Speaker 2: Scott's British ship carried what one historian called the largest, 42 00:03:05,076 --> 00:03:10,116 Speaker 2: best equipped scientific team ever sent to Antarctica. Carried three 43 00:03:10,156 --> 00:03:13,996 Speaker 2: state of the art motorized sleds, along with Siberian dogs 44 00:03:13,996 --> 00:03:18,396 Speaker 2: and ponies, and a crew of sixty five. This little 45 00:03:18,556 --> 00:03:21,276 Speaker 2: army set sail from London in front of a crowd 46 00:03:21,316 --> 00:03:26,316 Speaker 2: of the Empire's finest. The American polar explorer Robert Bartlett 47 00:03:26,356 --> 00:03:29,476 Speaker 2: was there, noting that nobody had ever given him such 48 00:03:29,516 --> 00:03:32,916 Speaker 2: a sendoff. There were gold lace and cock hats, and 49 00:03:32,996 --> 00:03:35,916 Speaker 2: dignitaries enough to run a navy. I couldn't help comparing 50 00:03:35,956 --> 00:03:39,476 Speaker 2: all this formality with the shoddy, almost sneering attitude of 51 00:03:39,476 --> 00:03:44,556 Speaker 2: the American public. One of Scott's crew was almost overwhelmed 52 00:03:44,596 --> 00:03:45,956 Speaker 2: by the crowd of onlookers. 53 00:03:46,596 --> 00:03:50,236 Speaker 3: The cheers from the many thousands of throats barely made 54 00:03:50,316 --> 00:03:53,196 Speaker 3: the air quiver on that glazing summer afternoon. 55 00:03:54,956 --> 00:03:59,956 Speaker 2: Rolled Amundsen's Norwegian vessel was much smaller. It carried no 56 00:04:00,116 --> 00:04:04,636 Speaker 2: motorized sleds or ponies, only dogs, and a crew of 57 00:04:04,876 --> 00:04:10,476 Speaker 2: just nineteen. It sailed at midnight without ceremony or celebration, 58 00:04:11,476 --> 00:04:17,316 Speaker 2: a ghost ship, slipping out into the Norwegian Fjords. Nobody 59 00:04:17,356 --> 00:04:20,916 Speaker 2: in Norway was excited about Amundson's bold thrust to beat 60 00:04:20,916 --> 00:04:23,596 Speaker 2: the British to the South Pole, and there was a 61 00:04:23,636 --> 00:04:27,636 Speaker 2: reason for that. He had told everyone he was heading 62 00:04:27,716 --> 00:04:32,796 Speaker 2: to the North Pole instead. It's hard to imagine a 63 00:04:32,876 --> 00:04:38,476 Speaker 2: more uneven contest. Scott's expedition was far larger and far 64 00:04:38,556 --> 00:04:42,836 Speaker 2: better funded, underwritten by the British Navy and supported by 65 00:04:42,876 --> 00:04:47,396 Speaker 2: public and private donations from across the British Empire. There 66 00:04:47,436 --> 00:04:51,756 Speaker 2: could be only one winner, and it was already obvious 67 00:04:52,276 --> 00:04:57,276 Speaker 2: who it would be. I'm Tim Harford, and you're listening 68 00:04:57,796 --> 00:05:26,836 Speaker 2: to cautionary tales. Remember the biblical story of David and Goliath. 69 00:05:27,556 --> 00:05:31,516 Speaker 2: An Israelite shepherd boy with the humblest weapon imaginable, a sling, 70 00:05:32,156 --> 00:05:36,916 Speaker 2: defeats Goliath, the Philistine champion, a fully armed man mountain. 71 00:05:37,756 --> 00:05:40,876 Speaker 2: King Saul of the Israelites is against the plan. You 72 00:05:40,996 --> 00:05:43,716 Speaker 2: cannot go against this Philistine, to do battle with him, 73 00:05:43,956 --> 00:05:46,036 Speaker 2: for you are a lad and he is a man 74 00:05:46,076 --> 00:05:50,676 Speaker 2: of war. From his youth, but David fights Goliath anyway 75 00:05:51,596 --> 00:06:00,116 Speaker 2: and wins easily. Malcolm Gladwell's book David and Goliath has 76 00:06:00,156 --> 00:06:04,116 Speaker 2: some interesting things to say about this fight. Goliath wasn't 77 00:06:04,156 --> 00:06:07,596 Speaker 2: quite as fearsome as he seemed. He was at least 78 00:06:07,676 --> 00:06:11,596 Speaker 2: six foot nine, but humans aren't built to be that big. 79 00:06:12,436 --> 00:06:15,756 Speaker 2: One plausible explanation is that Goliath was suffering from a 80 00:06:15,836 --> 00:06:20,516 Speaker 2: medical condition which causes the production of too much growth hormone. 81 00:06:20,676 --> 00:06:26,796 Speaker 2: It also often causes double vision. Goliath looked terrifying, but 82 00:06:26,996 --> 00:06:30,636 Speaker 2: he may well have had difficulty moving and difficulty focusing. 83 00:06:32,316 --> 00:06:35,316 Speaker 2: In the Race to the South Pole, Robert Falcon Scott 84 00:06:35,716 --> 00:06:41,716 Speaker 2: was Goliath, apparently the overwhelming favorite, but in reality in 85 00:06:41,756 --> 00:06:48,196 Speaker 2: a hopeless position. Just in case you don't know how 86 00:06:48,236 --> 00:06:53,916 Speaker 2: the race unfolds, Scott's mission ends in utter failure. For 87 00:06:53,996 --> 00:06:56,916 Speaker 2: more than a century, people have been arguing about why. 88 00:06:58,196 --> 00:07:00,076 Speaker 2: On one side of the argument to those who say 89 00:07:00,076 --> 00:07:04,196 Speaker 2: Scott was terribly unlucky, in particular with the weather. On 90 00:07:04,236 --> 00:07:07,436 Speaker 2: the other side of those who say Scott was an incompetent, 91 00:07:07,756 --> 00:07:11,276 Speaker 2: that he chose the wrong method, took needless risks, and 92 00:07:11,316 --> 00:07:14,996 Speaker 2: at critical moments he made the wrong calls. If it 93 00:07:15,036 --> 00:07:18,676 Speaker 2: wasn't bad luck or bad judgment, then how else could 94 00:07:18,716 --> 00:07:23,516 Speaker 2: such a well resourced expedition fail. But Goliath didn't lose 95 00:07:23,556 --> 00:07:26,716 Speaker 2: because he was unlucky or because he was foolish. He 96 00:07:26,836 --> 00:07:31,036 Speaker 2: lost because the apparent underdog was actually in a vastly 97 00:07:31,156 --> 00:07:36,036 Speaker 2: superior position all along. We'll explore the causes of Scott's 98 00:07:36,036 --> 00:07:40,076 Speaker 2: problems in a moment, but first let's describe the symptoms. 99 00:07:41,196 --> 00:07:45,036 Speaker 2: His expedition was so large that Scott's ship was overloaded 100 00:07:45,116 --> 00:07:49,116 Speaker 2: with men, fuel, motorized sledges, and ponies, and it nearly 101 00:07:49,156 --> 00:07:54,316 Speaker 2: sank before reaching Antarctica. Conditions on ship were miserable. The 102 00:07:54,396 --> 00:07:58,476 Speaker 2: crew ate their meals from a table directly underneath where 103 00:07:58,476 --> 00:08:02,996 Speaker 2: the ponies were being stabled. The yellow substance that dribbled 104 00:08:03,036 --> 00:08:05,476 Speaker 2: down to the cracks in the wooden deck onto their 105 00:08:05,516 --> 00:08:11,956 Speaker 2: table was euphemistically called mustard. Things were hardly more comfortable. 106 00:08:11,996 --> 00:08:15,716 Speaker 2: Once Scott arrived in Antarctica. The British went to a 107 00:08:15,756 --> 00:08:19,356 Speaker 2: base that Scott and others had established years before on 108 00:08:19,516 --> 00:08:22,756 Speaker 2: Ross Island, just off the coast of the Antarctic continent. 109 00:08:23,516 --> 00:08:25,956 Speaker 2: It was further away from the South Pole than where 110 00:08:25,996 --> 00:08:29,716 Speaker 2: Amonson made his base camp, and not without its dangers. 111 00:08:30,556 --> 00:08:33,356 Speaker 2: One man ventured onto an ice flow to photograph some 112 00:08:33,476 --> 00:08:36,396 Speaker 2: killer whales and nearly ended up as their lunch. 113 00:08:37,276 --> 00:08:40,716 Speaker 3: The ship was within sixty yards, and I heard wild 114 00:08:40,836 --> 00:08:45,156 Speaker 3: shouts look out, run, jump man, jump, run quick that 115 00:08:45,316 --> 00:08:46,076 Speaker 3: I could not run. 116 00:08:47,196 --> 00:08:48,996 Speaker 2: It was all I could do to keep my finger 117 00:08:48,996 --> 00:08:51,716 Speaker 2: as I leapt from peace to piece of the rocking ice, 118 00:08:52,436 --> 00:08:52,796 Speaker 2: with the. 119 00:08:52,716 --> 00:08:56,996 Speaker 3: Whales a few yards behind me, snorting and blowing among 120 00:08:57,036 --> 00:08:57,876 Speaker 3: the ice blocks. 121 00:09:00,596 --> 00:09:03,596 Speaker 2: He made it back to safety, with Captain Scott exclaiming, 122 00:09:03,916 --> 00:09:06,876 Speaker 2: my God, that was about the nearest squeak I ever saw. 123 00:09:08,276 --> 00:09:11,636 Speaker 2: Then came the loading of the ship. It did not 124 00:09:11,836 --> 00:09:12,356 Speaker 2: go well. 125 00:09:13,356 --> 00:09:15,356 Speaker 3: We realized that the ice was getting. 126 00:09:15,116 --> 00:09:17,996 Speaker 2: Very rotten, wrote one crewman, But when. 127 00:09:17,916 --> 00:09:20,396 Speaker 3: A message came back from an anxious Scott to hurry 128 00:09:20,396 --> 00:09:22,996 Speaker 3: with the unloading, no one had the courage or the 129 00:09:23,076 --> 00:09:24,036 Speaker 3: sense to ignore it. 130 00:09:24,796 --> 00:09:27,836 Speaker 2: They were unloading one of the three motorized sledges. 131 00:09:28,516 --> 00:09:31,556 Speaker 3: The ship party had got the sledge down onto the ice, when, 132 00:09:31,596 --> 00:09:34,996 Speaker 3: without warning, Williamson went through to his thighs. The motor 133 00:09:35,036 --> 00:09:38,196 Speaker 3: sledge suddenly dipped, The ice gave way, and she fell 134 00:09:38,316 --> 00:09:41,316 Speaker 3: with all her weight vertically on the rope. The rope 135 00:09:41,356 --> 00:09:44,476 Speaker 3: began cutting through the thin ice. Man after man was 136 00:09:44,556 --> 00:09:50,396 Speaker 3: forced to let go. The sledge is now resting on 137 00:09:50,436 --> 00:09:53,236 Speaker 3: the bottom at a depth of one hundred and twenty fathoms. 138 00:09:55,036 --> 00:09:59,556 Speaker 2: It was a terrifying moment, and an expensive one. Scott 139 00:09:59,636 --> 00:10:02,716 Speaker 2: had paid about as much for his three motorized sledges 140 00:10:03,196 --> 00:10:08,596 Speaker 2: as Amondson had raised to fund his entire expedition. After 141 00:10:08,676 --> 00:10:12,396 Speaker 2: months preparing depots and sheltering from the winter, Scott was 142 00:10:12,476 --> 00:10:15,916 Speaker 2: ready to make his attempt at the South Pole. Despite 143 00:10:15,956 --> 00:10:18,476 Speaker 2: the loss of one motor sledge, he still had two 144 00:10:18,516 --> 00:10:21,716 Speaker 2: more of them, plus packs of dogs, a team of ponies, 145 00:10:22,156 --> 00:10:25,876 Speaker 2: and the time honored tradition of the British Navy donning 146 00:10:25,996 --> 00:10:30,076 Speaker 2: harnesses and hauling the sledges by hand with sheer British 147 00:10:30,116 --> 00:10:34,916 Speaker 2: grit and endurance. The British had long experience of this 148 00:10:35,396 --> 00:10:40,316 Speaker 2: man hauling of sledges in polar regions. One disastrous expedition 149 00:10:40,396 --> 00:10:44,036 Speaker 2: to the Arctic in eighteen seventy five required man hauling. 150 00:10:44,516 --> 00:10:48,036 Speaker 2: Here is the conclusion of a survivor. I would confine 151 00:10:48,276 --> 00:10:51,596 Speaker 2: everyone who proposed such a thing in a lunatic asylum, 152 00:10:51,836 --> 00:10:56,876 Speaker 2: burn every sledge in existence, and destroy the patterns long 153 00:10:57,236 --> 00:11:01,276 Speaker 2: experience as I say, but the British Navy had not 154 00:11:01,516 --> 00:11:05,556 Speaker 2: learned from that long experience. With the luxury of these 155 00:11:05,676 --> 00:11:09,676 Speaker 2: varied modes of transport available, Scott chose to try them all. 156 00:11:10,436 --> 00:11:14,276 Speaker 2: You might think that would give him flexibility. Instead it 157 00:11:14,396 --> 00:11:18,556 Speaker 2: constrained him. Scott's ponies were poorly adapted to the cold, 158 00:11:18,916 --> 00:11:22,996 Speaker 2: so he decided to start later in the spring. Even then, 159 00:11:23,196 --> 00:11:27,916 Speaker 2: the ponies struggled. They traveled slowly, hooves sinking deep into 160 00:11:27,956 --> 00:11:30,996 Speaker 2: the snow. Scott decided it would be better for the 161 00:11:30,996 --> 00:11:34,396 Speaker 2: ponies to travel at night, when the colder temperatures might 162 00:11:34,476 --> 00:11:38,316 Speaker 2: mean firmer conditions under their hooves. It was miserable. 163 00:11:39,316 --> 00:11:42,996 Speaker 3: Huge icicles forum under the Pawney's noises during the march. 164 00:11:43,756 --> 00:11:48,036 Speaker 2: Scott's two remaining motorized sledges broke down early in the expedition. 165 00:11:48,636 --> 00:11:51,636 Speaker 2: Nobody on his team had the mechanical expertise to fix them, 166 00:11:51,676 --> 00:11:54,356 Speaker 2: so he had to abandon them and man hauled the 167 00:11:54,396 --> 00:11:58,316 Speaker 2: sledges instead. The man hauled sledges were even slower than 168 00:11:58,356 --> 00:12:03,116 Speaker 2: the ponies. Scott's expedition was a patchwork caravan, on which 169 00:12:03,156 --> 00:12:05,836 Speaker 2: the ponies and the dog sleds had to keep stopping 170 00:12:05,916 --> 00:12:07,996 Speaker 2: to let the man hauled sledges. Keep up. 171 00:12:08,316 --> 00:12:11,076 Speaker 3: The dogs do the march in three hours, and then 172 00:12:11,116 --> 00:12:12,716 Speaker 3: they have little else to do for the rest of 173 00:12:12,756 --> 00:12:14,996 Speaker 3: the day. The dogs are doing splendidly. 174 00:12:15,756 --> 00:12:18,796 Speaker 2: When news reached Scott and his team that Amonson was 175 00:12:18,916 --> 00:12:22,196 Speaker 2: racing them to the poll, they correctly surmised that he 176 00:12:22,196 --> 00:12:25,156 Speaker 2: wouldn't have taken ponies and he wouldn't be man hauling 177 00:12:25,196 --> 00:12:25,916 Speaker 2: any sledges. 178 00:12:26,436 --> 00:12:29,236 Speaker 3: I must say that Amundsen's chance of having forestalled us 179 00:12:30,196 --> 00:12:30,756 Speaker 3: looks good. 180 00:12:32,276 --> 00:12:36,476 Speaker 2: After the losses, the accidents, the late start, and the 181 00:12:36,516 --> 00:12:40,996 Speaker 2: slow progress, Scott's defeat was now just a matter of time. 182 00:12:42,196 --> 00:12:46,036 Speaker 2: But why had such a well resourced expedition run into 183 00:12:46,236 --> 00:12:48,196 Speaker 2: so many problems? 184 00:12:55,356 --> 00:12:58,636 Speaker 1: Actually you'll have to subscribe to Cautionary Tales for the 185 00:12:58,676 --> 00:13:01,956 Speaker 1: answer to that question and so much more. But first 186 00:13:02,316 --> 00:13:04,596 Speaker 1: I got to call up Tim Harford and ask him 187 00:13:04,756 --> 00:13:08,556 Speaker 1: so many burning questions or should I say, freezing questions 188 00:13:09,276 --> 00:13:14,876 Speaker 1: what he learned from these Antarctic tales. Here's our conversation, Tim. 189 00:13:14,876 --> 00:13:19,676 Speaker 1: I've listened to all three of your episodes, and I 190 00:13:19,716 --> 00:13:22,316 Speaker 1: must say I liked him very much. I thought it 191 00:13:22,356 --> 00:13:24,036 Speaker 1: was fascinating. I actually knew none. 192 00:13:23,876 --> 00:13:25,916 Speaker 2: Of this at all. 193 00:13:26,076 --> 00:13:27,876 Speaker 1: I couldn't yet it was all kind of a blur 194 00:13:27,996 --> 00:13:31,116 Speaker 1: to me. All of these all of these explorers from 195 00:13:31,356 --> 00:13:33,356 Speaker 1: long ago, and there are all these dimensions that I 196 00:13:33,356 --> 00:13:37,116 Speaker 1: didn't understand. But I wanted to start with this contrast 197 00:13:37,196 --> 00:13:41,836 Speaker 1: between Scott and Ahmudson. The complex thing, and the thing 198 00:13:41,836 --> 00:13:44,516 Speaker 1: that makes it really fascinating is that Scott is really 199 00:13:44,556 --> 00:13:45,876 Speaker 1: the innovator, isn't he. 200 00:13:45,956 --> 00:13:49,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, he sees himself as the scientific innovator. He wants 201 00:13:49,596 --> 00:13:53,076 Speaker 2: to He wants to break ground in terms of exploring 202 00:13:53,836 --> 00:13:58,836 Speaker 2: measuring magnetic fields, discovering new aspects of the flora and 203 00:13:58,916 --> 00:14:02,236 Speaker 2: fungi of Antarctica. There's this crazy side quest they do 204 00:14:02,276 --> 00:14:04,716 Speaker 2: when they're trying to get a penguin egg, which is 205 00:14:05,236 --> 00:14:07,676 Speaker 2: described as the worst journey in the world because they 206 00:14:07,676 --> 00:14:10,836 Speaker 2: have to travel in the entire winter. I mean, it's crazy. 207 00:14:10,876 --> 00:14:14,836 Speaker 2: He's doing technological innovation. He has these three motorized sleds, 208 00:14:15,116 --> 00:14:18,076 Speaker 2: which I think partly paved the way for tanks in 209 00:14:18,116 --> 00:14:20,596 Speaker 2: the First World War. And people who think that Scott 210 00:14:20,636 --> 00:14:23,636 Speaker 2: is awesome emphasize all of this ambition, all of the 211 00:14:23,636 --> 00:14:26,916 Speaker 2: things he was trying to do. But of course Amonson 212 00:14:27,196 --> 00:14:29,396 Speaker 2: just wanted to use the best possible way to get 213 00:14:29,396 --> 00:14:32,436 Speaker 2: to the South Pole first, and actually that was innovative 214 00:14:32,476 --> 00:14:35,476 Speaker 2: in some small ways that the precise design of the 215 00:14:35,476 --> 00:14:38,156 Speaker 2: sled and the kind of containers that won't leak, But 216 00:14:38,196 --> 00:14:41,076 Speaker 2: it was basically using techniques that have been used in 217 00:14:41,396 --> 00:14:45,436 Speaker 2: Greenland by indigenous people for well, I mean, we don't 218 00:14:45,436 --> 00:14:46,676 Speaker 2: know how long, a very long time. 219 00:14:47,036 --> 00:14:49,116 Speaker 1: This is actually what I loved about the story is 220 00:14:49,116 --> 00:14:53,476 Speaker 1: that it's so incredibly contemporary because Scott is really the 221 00:14:53,556 --> 00:14:57,356 Speaker 1: kind of He's the Silicon Valley startup who gets an 222 00:14:57,476 --> 00:15:00,676 Speaker 1: enormous amount of venture funding and proceeds to blow it 223 00:15:00,716 --> 00:15:03,076 Speaker 1: all on a series of ideas and solving problems in 224 00:15:03,116 --> 00:15:08,716 Speaker 1: our problems. And Emerson is the kind of bootstrap entrepreneur 225 00:15:08,716 --> 00:15:11,596 Speaker 1: in the Middle Country that no one's paying attention to, 226 00:15:12,316 --> 00:15:15,716 Speaker 1: who's forced to use the tried and true. The original 227 00:15:15,796 --> 00:15:19,396 Speaker 1: sin sounds like is the fact that Scott was given 228 00:15:19,436 --> 00:15:20,516 Speaker 1: everything he wanted. 229 00:15:20,436 --> 00:15:22,676 Speaker 2: Everything he wanted, plus a lot of baggage he didn't want, 230 00:15:23,116 --> 00:15:26,396 Speaker 2: all kinds of interference and all kinds of people telling 231 00:15:26,436 --> 00:15:28,036 Speaker 2: him they wanted to do this, and they wanted to 232 00:15:28,036 --> 00:15:29,716 Speaker 2: do that, and they wanted to achieve all of these 233 00:15:29,756 --> 00:15:32,516 Speaker 2: great things, which means he can't focus. But yeah, he's 234 00:15:32,516 --> 00:15:35,036 Speaker 2: got far too much. He's got far too much money, 235 00:15:35,196 --> 00:15:38,316 Speaker 2: he's got far too many people. His ship nearly sinks 236 00:15:38,596 --> 00:15:41,196 Speaker 2: simply because it's so overlaiden. There's just so much on 237 00:15:41,236 --> 00:15:44,556 Speaker 2: it that it's nearly capsized by a storm on the 238 00:15:44,556 --> 00:15:47,916 Speaker 2: way to the Antarctic. But Amonson, meanwhile, is not only 239 00:15:47,996 --> 00:15:51,116 Speaker 2: is no one paying attention to him, he's actively engaging 240 00:15:51,116 --> 00:15:53,516 Speaker 2: in disinformation. He's lying to he's even lying to his 241 00:15:53,556 --> 00:15:56,076 Speaker 2: own crew about where he's going. He's telling people he's 242 00:15:56,076 --> 00:15:59,356 Speaker 2: going north and he's actually going south. Yeah, And I 243 00:15:59,356 --> 00:16:01,276 Speaker 2: love the way that you've phrased this is he's a 244 00:16:01,316 --> 00:16:04,076 Speaker 2: Silicon Valley startup because for me, I'm thinking he's a 245 00:16:04,116 --> 00:16:06,796 Speaker 2: British Navy guy. He's kind of a government man. He's 246 00:16:06,836 --> 00:16:09,996 Speaker 2: a military man. He's very bureaucratic. But you're you're seeing 247 00:16:10,036 --> 00:16:12,556 Speaker 2: some a different quality in him and a different problem 248 00:16:12,556 --> 00:16:13,236 Speaker 2: that he's facing. 249 00:16:13,716 --> 00:16:17,676 Speaker 1: He's given everything he wants, and then he as a result, 250 00:16:17,756 --> 00:16:20,796 Speaker 1: he has lots of things he doesn't want. Those two 251 00:16:20,836 --> 00:16:23,756 Speaker 1: things are linked. That's what happens when you get everything 252 00:16:23,796 --> 00:16:27,236 Speaker 1: you want. It's the careful what you wish for problem? 253 00:16:27,316 --> 00:16:27,476 Speaker 2: Right. 254 00:16:27,996 --> 00:16:30,316 Speaker 1: The things he don't want are a consequence of getting 255 00:16:30,316 --> 00:16:32,916 Speaker 1: everything he wants in the beginning, he has so many 256 00:16:32,956 --> 00:16:35,516 Speaker 1: people who are pitching in to quote unquote help him 257 00:16:35,756 --> 00:16:38,676 Speaker 1: that he ends up being burdened by all of their expectations, 258 00:16:38,996 --> 00:16:43,276 Speaker 1: which is another Silicon Valley kind of conundrum. The venture 259 00:16:43,276 --> 00:16:47,556 Speaker 1: capitalist gives you fifty million dollars and then has a 260 00:16:47,556 --> 00:16:50,396 Speaker 1: seat at the table and complicates your vision with all 261 00:16:50,556 --> 00:16:52,556 Speaker 1: their sense of where you should be going. 262 00:16:53,396 --> 00:16:55,876 Speaker 2: The funder the bench capitalist in this particular case is 263 00:16:55,876 --> 00:16:58,356 Speaker 2: a guy called Sir Clements Markham, who is just this 264 00:16:58,516 --> 00:17:03,036 Speaker 2: incredibly British, incredibly intimidating fellow. I've got this portrait of 265 00:17:03,436 --> 00:17:05,676 Speaker 2: him and it looks to me like the expression on 266 00:17:05,676 --> 00:17:08,396 Speaker 2: his face is like the photographer has just broken wind, 267 00:17:08,716 --> 00:17:12,756 Speaker 2: and he just looks so unhappy that someone is daring 268 00:17:12,796 --> 00:17:15,076 Speaker 2: to point a camera at him. And he was just 269 00:17:15,116 --> 00:17:18,356 Speaker 2: pulling the strings at the Royal Geographical Society in London 270 00:17:18,716 --> 00:17:23,076 Speaker 2: for decades. He's so tight with Scott and Scott's family 271 00:17:23,116 --> 00:17:28,796 Speaker 2: that Scott names his son Peter after Sir Clements, and 272 00:17:28,876 --> 00:17:31,636 Speaker 2: Scott is clearly terrified of him. And it's one of 273 00:17:31,676 --> 00:17:33,196 Speaker 2: these you know, he put Scott where he is and 274 00:17:33,236 --> 00:17:36,316 Speaker 2: he can put him right back again if he wants to. 275 00:17:36,756 --> 00:17:38,956 Speaker 2: And Sir Clements, who's never been to the Antarctic, who's 276 00:17:38,996 --> 00:17:41,396 Speaker 2: got no idea what it's like down there, just has 277 00:17:41,436 --> 00:17:44,676 Speaker 2: these views. There's obviously there should be no dogs. Everybody 278 00:17:44,716 --> 00:17:47,836 Speaker 2: who knows anything about arctic exploration knows you should use 279 00:17:47,996 --> 00:17:50,716 Speaker 2: dogs for any number of reasons. I explain in the 280 00:17:50,876 --> 00:17:52,836 Speaker 2: in the episodes. But Sir Clements is sitting there in 281 00:17:52,876 --> 00:17:57,316 Speaker 2: London going no nosky, no dogs, and Scott's kind of 282 00:17:57,396 --> 00:17:58,276 Speaker 2: got to do what he says. 283 00:17:58,436 --> 00:18:01,876 Speaker 1: It's so funny that any story about English life in 284 00:18:01,956 --> 00:18:04,996 Speaker 1: this period always boils down to the stupidity of the 285 00:18:04,996 --> 00:18:11,116 Speaker 1: British ruling class. Sir Clement's is such a familiar figure, 286 00:18:11,436 --> 00:18:17,636 Speaker 1: this kind of arrogant, pigheaded authority figure who thinks that, 287 00:18:17,836 --> 00:18:21,036 Speaker 1: who has a kind of abstract notion of the way things. 288 00:18:20,796 --> 00:18:23,476 Speaker 2: Ought to be, yes, absolutely. 289 00:18:23,196 --> 00:18:25,716 Speaker 1: Which triumphs of the way things actually are. 290 00:18:26,276 --> 00:18:30,436 Speaker 2: But the interesting thing for me about Amundson is that 291 00:18:30,516 --> 00:18:34,756 Speaker 2: he also has these certain bureaucratic constraints. So he's the king, 292 00:18:34,956 --> 00:18:38,396 Speaker 2: is the patron of his expedition, and he's got funding 293 00:18:38,476 --> 00:18:40,836 Speaker 2: from the Norwegian government and all this kind of stuff, 294 00:18:41,156 --> 00:18:43,436 Speaker 2: but he just doesn't care. So he lies to the King, 295 00:18:43,556 --> 00:18:46,756 Speaker 2: he lies to Parliament, he's borrowed all this money, and 296 00:18:46,756 --> 00:18:49,116 Speaker 2: then he basically runs away. One of the things he's 297 00:18:49,116 --> 00:18:51,356 Speaker 2: doing going to Antarctica is getting out of reach of 298 00:18:51,396 --> 00:18:53,836 Speaker 2: his creditors, and it's only when they can't impound his 299 00:18:53,916 --> 00:18:58,316 Speaker 2: ship that he actually tells people exactly what he's doing. So, yes, 300 00:18:58,356 --> 00:19:02,236 Speaker 2: it is partly this kind of this hide bound British bureaucracy, 301 00:19:02,756 --> 00:19:06,956 Speaker 2: but it is also Scott's deference to it in a 302 00:19:06,956 --> 00:19:09,596 Speaker 2: way that Amondson was not int Is it for a 303 00:19:09,636 --> 00:19:10,516 Speaker 2: second in any of. 304 00:19:10,396 --> 00:19:14,076 Speaker 1: That, Yeah, to bring up the second Silicon Valley analogy, 305 00:19:14,836 --> 00:19:18,356 Speaker 1: there's a little bit of Elizabeth Holmes in Amonson. It's 306 00:19:18,396 --> 00:19:19,876 Speaker 1: faked to you make it kind of thing. 307 00:19:20,356 --> 00:19:22,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, except he made it, Yeah, except. 308 00:19:22,676 --> 00:19:25,596 Speaker 1: To be made it. But that idea that for someone 309 00:19:25,636 --> 00:19:30,676 Speaker 1: who's attempting something incredibly difficult, that it may be necessary 310 00:19:30,716 --> 00:19:33,396 Speaker 1: at some time to engage an acts of deception at 311 00:19:33,436 --> 00:19:36,236 Speaker 1: the outset, or maybe a better way of saying it 312 00:19:36,316 --> 00:19:40,516 Speaker 1: is that the kind of person who is focused in 313 00:19:41,916 --> 00:19:46,036 Speaker 1: singular enough to pull off a feet like this, is 314 00:19:46,116 --> 00:19:49,316 Speaker 1: willing to engage in deception. Doesn't have any kind of 315 00:19:49,316 --> 00:19:54,116 Speaker 1: moral qualm. Nothing trumps the goal of reaching the South Pole. 316 00:19:54,436 --> 00:19:56,356 Speaker 1: Everything else is secondary, including the truth. 317 00:19:57,316 --> 00:19:58,996 Speaker 2: Yeah, and he doesn't seem to have lost any sleep 318 00:19:59,076 --> 00:20:01,596 Speaker 2: over that. And I think Amonson had this very clear 319 00:20:01,676 --> 00:20:04,156 Speaker 2: vision that it would all be forgiven if he succeeded, 320 00:20:04,516 --> 00:20:07,636 Speaker 2: and which I suspect that to the extent that Elizabeth 321 00:20:07,676 --> 00:20:10,276 Speaker 2: Holmes that Theronos had a vision of what was going on. 322 00:20:10,316 --> 00:20:12,996 Speaker 2: But there's the same thing, they'll forgive me once it 323 00:20:13,036 --> 00:20:13,556 Speaker 2: all works. 324 00:20:13,676 --> 00:20:15,676 Speaker 1: Oh, I think she very clearly had that. Tim. I 325 00:20:15,676 --> 00:20:19,316 Speaker 1: think that's absolutely much driving the whole train. There is 326 00:20:19,316 --> 00:20:22,636 Speaker 1: that I can lie and cheat and deceive, because if 327 00:20:22,636 --> 00:20:23,836 Speaker 1: I pull this off, I'm a hero. 328 00:20:24,196 --> 00:20:24,836 Speaker 2: Yeah. 329 00:20:24,996 --> 00:20:28,596 Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about your personal feelings about 330 00:20:28,636 --> 00:20:31,436 Speaker 1: the two men. I mean, it's clearly you're partial to Amudson. 331 00:20:31,836 --> 00:20:34,636 Speaker 1: If you eat a choice between dining with two of them, 332 00:20:34,796 --> 00:20:36,636 Speaker 1: who's your first choice for dinner tonight? 333 00:20:37,156 --> 00:20:39,996 Speaker 2: Oh? Actually, I think they would both be well, they 334 00:20:40,036 --> 00:20:42,956 Speaker 2: both be interesting, but they would be pretty awkward both ways, 335 00:20:43,236 --> 00:20:46,196 Speaker 2: because I think they both had these huge egos. Amison 336 00:20:46,276 --> 00:20:49,436 Speaker 2: is this antihero. I don't really like either of them 337 00:20:49,556 --> 00:20:54,676 Speaker 2: as people. I'm excited by Amerson's daring and his willingness 338 00:20:54,676 --> 00:20:57,476 Speaker 2: to get things done, and he makes sacrifices and he 339 00:20:57,596 --> 00:21:00,276 Speaker 2: succeeds in the end, and Scott just seems like this 340 00:21:00,316 --> 00:21:02,916 Speaker 2: tragic blunderer. But I'm not trying. I'd really want to 341 00:21:02,956 --> 00:21:06,276 Speaker 2: have dinner with either of them, if I'm honest, Who 342 00:21:06,316 --> 00:21:07,676 Speaker 2: would you rather? Scott? 343 00:21:08,036 --> 00:21:13,116 Speaker 1: Yeah, he came away from listening to your episodes liking Amdson, 344 00:21:13,476 --> 00:21:16,076 Speaker 1: and I felt very sorry for him because the world 345 00:21:16,076 --> 00:21:17,756 Speaker 1: doesn't reward him in the way that he ought to 346 00:21:17,756 --> 00:21:19,316 Speaker 1: have been rewarded. He's the hero. 347 00:21:19,716 --> 00:21:21,116 Speaker 2: He made it look too easy, that's the problem. 348 00:21:21,196 --> 00:21:23,356 Speaker 1: Yeah, he made it look too easy. But Scott would 349 00:21:23,436 --> 00:21:26,716 Speaker 1: just be fascinating against He's so British, he's so of 350 00:21:26,716 --> 00:21:29,196 Speaker 1: that period. I mean, and you would dine out on 351 00:21:29,276 --> 00:21:31,756 Speaker 1: Scott's stories for the rest of your life. But if 352 00:21:31,756 --> 00:21:33,556 Speaker 1: you had dinner with him, get him try And. 353 00:21:33,596 --> 00:21:36,756 Speaker 2: He was a brilliant storyteller. He did that and the 354 00:21:36,836 --> 00:21:39,916 Speaker 2: story was of the tragic hero, and he was writing 355 00:21:39,956 --> 00:21:42,276 Speaker 2: this story of the tragic hero who's going to fail 356 00:21:42,716 --> 00:21:44,996 Speaker 2: all the way along. It's almost like he knew how 357 00:21:45,036 --> 00:21:47,756 Speaker 2: it was going to end. Yeah, this was so much fun. 358 00:21:47,756 --> 00:21:50,636 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Thank you Tim. It's a wonderful series.