WEBVTT - Invention Classic: Guillotine

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, Welcome to Invention. My name is Robert Lamb and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Joe McCormick, and we're bringing you a classic episode

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<v Speaker 1>of Invention. Is the show old enough to have classics? Now?

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<v Speaker 1>If so, this is a classic? Yes, I think it?

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<v Speaker 1>Yet why not? I think this might have been the

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<v Speaker 1>first episode of the show we recorded. Was yeah, I

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<v Speaker 1>was looking back. This is the first episode we put out.

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<v Speaker 1>We went in there grizzly, and now it's Halloween, so

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<v Speaker 1>we figured let's replay this grizzly classic of Invention. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>it's seasonally appropriate, but it also turned out to be

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<v Speaker 1>I thought, a very nuanced and interesting subject. So this

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<v Speaker 1>is our early episode of Invention on the guillotine. We

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<v Speaker 1>hope you enjoy. Welcome to Invention, a production of I

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<v Speaker 1>Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Invention. I'm Robert Lamb and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Joe McCormick. And you might know Robert and I

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<v Speaker 1>from our other show Stuff to Blow your Mind, our

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<v Speaker 1>other show in the house Stuff Works Network. But today

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<v Speaker 1>you apparently have somehow wandered into our brand new Curiosity

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<v Speaker 1>Store of Inventions, where we explore human ingenuity, for good,

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<v Speaker 1>for ill, all of the stuff that comes out of

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<v Speaker 1>our imaginations and becomes the technology we use every day

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<v Speaker 1>or maybe just read about in history books. Yes, the

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<v Speaker 1>hallowed halls of technological, systematic, and cultural invention, the very

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<v Speaker 1>human machines, customs, and systems that altered the course of history.

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<v Speaker 1>And today we're talking about one of the most useful

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<v Speaker 1>inventions of all time. It's got to be the and Robert,

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<v Speaker 1>before I say it, do you say it like a

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<v Speaker 1>French guy's name, or like what a fish breathes with?

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<v Speaker 1>I go with guillotine because it sounds a little more

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<v Speaker 1>like an open face sandwich that way, and also it

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<v Speaker 1>has the the G has more of a sound to it. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I like how it sounds kind of like the minotar

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<v Speaker 1>the guillotine. But but apparently guillotine in English is also

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<v Speaker 1>somewhat acceptable pronunciation. I don't think there's a firm uh

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<v Speaker 1>ruling one way or another from the lords of English pronunciation. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>one thing is for certain as we we venture into

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<v Speaker 1>this world of the guillotine. Beheadings themselves are just a

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<v Speaker 1>time honored way for one human being to kill another.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a wound that still can't be repaired, and it is,

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<v Speaker 1>without questions certain death. Now one thing I was thinking

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<v Speaker 1>about to illustrate this is what would you even say

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<v Speaker 1>is the quote cause of death in a beheading? So well,

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<v Speaker 1>blood loss, loss of oxygen to the brain. Basically, it

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<v Speaker 1>just cuts off. It cuts off your all your plumbing

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<v Speaker 1>systems from all of your your your your thinking systems. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it makes it makes you think about how often when

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<v Speaker 1>you hear phrases like clinically dead, that can refer to

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<v Speaker 1>something about circulation, like the cessation of the heartbeat. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, so when you separate the head from the body,

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<v Speaker 1>I guess you've got to be really rigorous about what

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<v Speaker 1>you mean by dead. Though I guess it also happens

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<v Speaker 1>pretty quickly so you don't have to worry about it

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<v Speaker 1>too much. But yeah, all the blood comes out of

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<v Speaker 1>the head, immediate loss of blood pressure, which means the

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<v Speaker 1>brain can't get oxyd gin, which means the brain can't work. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I it's something that's just cemented in our mythology as well, right.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, you want to kill a vampire, you want

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<v Speaker 1>to kill a medusa, you want to kill a highlander,

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<v Speaker 1>what do you do? You cut their head off? There

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<v Speaker 1>is something just supernaturally potent about this form of death. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's absolutely true, and you see that in

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of archaeological finds of beheadings from human history. Like,

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<v Speaker 1>here's a kind of strange fact. A lot of times

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<v Speaker 1>when you find beheaded humans from ages past, there appears

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<v Speaker 1>to be evidence that the people were beheaded posthumously. Why

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<v Speaker 1>did that happen? There are a lot of ways you

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<v Speaker 1>could explain it. I mean that you would take a

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<v Speaker 1>dead person and cut off their head. Maybe there's some

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<v Speaker 1>sort of ritual function going on here, might be a

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<v Speaker 1>human sacrifice. Maybe there's some kind of symbolic form of

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<v Speaker 1>justice being done, if it's the corps of a criminal

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<v Speaker 1>or an enemy or something. But a lot of times

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<v Speaker 1>it appears like it might be a form of apotropaic magic,

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<v Speaker 1>the kind of magic you would use to ward off

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<v Speaker 1>evil or bad spirit. It's in the same way that

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<v Speaker 1>you might find a skeleton from hundreds of years ago

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<v Speaker 1>with an iron rod driven through its hard or with

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<v Speaker 1>a brick in its mouth, and say the tombs underneath Venice. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>there's like a dismantling of the the individual that that

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<v Speaker 1>seems evident in these acts um you know, and we

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<v Speaker 1>see acts of ritual decapitation dating back thousands of years.

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<v Speaker 1>For instance, there's evidence in Brazil that dates back to

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<v Speaker 1>at least nine thousand BC, and it's UH and in

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<v Speaker 1>it we find a human skull draped and amputated, hands

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<v Speaker 1>palm side down, covering the face as if as if

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<v Speaker 1>in grief. That's from place called Lapa Dosanto in UH

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<v Speaker 1>in South America and Brazil, and a lot of bones

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<v Speaker 1>have been discovered there. And it's not always easy to

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<v Speaker 1>determine how to read the intention behind what you see

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<v Speaker 1>in these people. But the yeah, there were all kinds

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<v Speaker 1>of forms of of apparently posthumous mutilation going on in

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<v Speaker 1>the way these bones are arranged. For example, sometimes you'll

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<v Speaker 1>find skulls they're full of finger bones inside the skulls.

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<v Speaker 1>What was going on? What made the people want to

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<v Speaker 1>do that? It seems like it may well have formed

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<v Speaker 1>some kind of magical intention, but what was it? Indeed,

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<v Speaker 1>we can only guess now. Another kind of significance that

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<v Speaker 1>beheading has often had in the ancient world was that

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<v Speaker 1>it was one of the many forms of execution practiced

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<v Speaker 1>of course in ancient Greece and Rome, UH and in

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<v Speaker 1>fact our terms decapitation and capital punishment both come from

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<v Speaker 1>the Latin from capit meaning head, so like capital punishment

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<v Speaker 1>is punishment of the head, or that you you pay,

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<v Speaker 1>you pay for a crime with your head by separating

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<v Speaker 1>it from the other stuff. Uh. And there's some evidence

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<v Speaker 1>that the ancient Greeks and Romans viewed beheading as not

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<v Speaker 1>a particularly harsh punishment, but more as a particularly noble

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<v Speaker 1>and honorable form of execution. And you see strains of

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<v Speaker 1>this thinking carried into much more recent times, like when

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<v Speaker 1>beheading was deployed as an execution method throughout the history

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<v Speaker 1>of England. Not always, but it was most often reserved

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<v Speaker 1>for the aristocracy, while common criminals might more often be

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<v Speaker 1>killed and what was considered a less dignified way like hanging. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, obviously be headings in general have probably been

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<v Speaker 1>occurring as long as we've had weapons fine enough to

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<v Speaker 1>inflict the blow. Uh, you know, as long as we

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<v Speaker 1>had you know, something that couldn't knock or cut a

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<v Speaker 1>head off. And then when you start looking at these, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>the the use of the of of a sword or

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<v Speaker 1>an axe and execution, you know, a lot of it

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<v Speaker 1>comes down to the craftsmanship of that weapon, but also

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<v Speaker 1>the skill of the individual using it. Yeah, that's that's

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<v Speaker 1>a real kicker, isn't it. I Mean, when you contract

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<v Speaker 1>somebody to do a job for you, a lot of times,

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<v Speaker 1>if you don't have a previous relationship with you, you

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<v Speaker 1>don't know what kind of work they're gonna do. You

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<v Speaker 1>want to find those people you can trust, but it's

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<v Speaker 1>hard to find a trust or the execution er that

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<v Speaker 1>you know is going to cut your head off right right,

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<v Speaker 1>Like if you really got to put yourself in the

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<v Speaker 1>in the shoes of the condemned here right. Uh. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>obviously you don't want to be stone to death. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>you don't want to be thrown into that burlap sack

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<v Speaker 1>with two wild animals and thrown into the river. You

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<v Speaker 1>would probably prefer a nice, clean beheading, but nobody wants

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<v Speaker 1>a less than perfect beheading. If the local warlord is

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<v Speaker 1>doing it, you know, that's one thing. Uh, you know, unless, however,

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<v Speaker 1>you're worried about the war lord inflicting an intentionally less

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<v Speaker 1>than perfect stroke, you know, out of personal malice. If

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<v Speaker 1>if it's a professional executioner that's doing the honors, well

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<v Speaker 1>that's either really good or really bad, depending on how

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<v Speaker 1>you look at it. Like the idea of a trained

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<v Speaker 1>specialist doing the ded That sounds good. But on the

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<v Speaker 1>other hand, at death via the sort of person who

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<v Speaker 1>either seeks this line of work out or is not

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<v Speaker 1>suited for any other form of labor, that's a little

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<v Speaker 1>uh frightening, I would say. Plus, do you really want

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<v Speaker 1>to be toward the bottom of an executioner's list for

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<v Speaker 1>the day after they're tired from swinging that big old axe,

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<v Speaker 1>like it's your turn on Friday afternoon? Yeah? Like you

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<v Speaker 1>kind of I want to be up there. I would

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<v Speaker 1>want to be up there first, let to get that

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<v Speaker 1>that first blow in on me. I must admit I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think I had ever much considered the horrors of

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<v Speaker 1>a weak strike from the executioner until Game of Thrones

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<v Speaker 1>came around, and then that I suddenly began to think, like, oh, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>this could go very wrong. But George R. Martin did

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<v Speaker 1>not make up this concept, obviously, of of being weak

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<v Speaker 1>at swinging the executioner sword or the acts. History is

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<v Speaker 1>replete with stories of botched beheadings, and they are horrific

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<v Speaker 1>and unfortunately sometimes kind of funny. I want to tell

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<v Speaker 1>you a couple uh, this one is not so funny.

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<v Speaker 1>And this concerns Mary, the Queen of Scots. So during

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<v Speaker 1>the reign of Protestant Queen Elizabeth the First of England

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<v Speaker 1>in the sixteenth century, there was obviously a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>anxiety about succession because Elizabeth had been born to King

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<v Speaker 1>Henry the Eighth and his second wife Anne Boleyn, after

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<v Speaker 1>Henry's first marriage to Catherine of Aragon had been annulled,

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<v Speaker 1>and obviously lots of people at the time, especially some Catholics,

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<v Speaker 1>had opinions about that right. And Elizabeth's cousin, Mary Stewart,

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<v Speaker 1>was born to James the Fifth of Scotland, who was

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<v Speaker 1>descended from a legitimate royal line, and so many Catholic

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<v Speaker 1>supporters thought, well, maybe Mary actually has a more legitimate

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<v Speaker 1>claim to the throne than Elizabeth does. And so Mary

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<v Speaker 1>was eventually implicated in an assassination plot against Elizabeth in

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<v Speaker 1>fifteen eighty six, at least she was allegedly involved in it,

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<v Speaker 1>and she was sentenced to execution in fifty seven. So

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<v Speaker 1>you've got Mary Stewart, Mary Queen of Scott's, going to

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<v Speaker 1>her execution, and the story goes that she's blindfolded and

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<v Speaker 1>she gets helped to the block and the executioner wearing

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<v Speaker 1>all black, raises up his axe to kill her, but

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<v Speaker 1>instead of cutting through her neck, he misses, and he

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<v Speaker 1>hits her on the head, and then some report that

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<v Speaker 1>she murmurs Sweet Jesus in shock before the executioner raises

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<v Speaker 1>his axe a second time and then strikes again and

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<v Speaker 1>still fails to cut her head off completely. And finally

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<v Speaker 1>he quote just sawed through what remained of her neck.

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<v Speaker 1>That's that's that's rough for Mary. Yeah, and this is

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<v Speaker 1>you know, this is presumed a main event be heading here.

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<v Speaker 1>So right, this is before a royal audience, right, so

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<v Speaker 1>this would have to be either an active just just

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<v Speaker 1>just an utterly inepped executioner, or one that is intentionally

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<v Speaker 1>doing a bad job out of mouth. It's like there

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<v Speaker 1>seems to be very little room in between. It's hard

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<v Speaker 1>to understand what happened here because you know, we only

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<v Speaker 1>have accounts from the time, which may not even be

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<v Speaker 1>fully reliable. We're relying on what people told us they

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<v Speaker 1>saw there, right, And there could be some objective in

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<v Speaker 1>crafting a version of the tale that sounds more inapt

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<v Speaker 1>than it actually was. But it actually gets worse because

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<v Speaker 1>apparently so it's described sometimes that the executioner appeared horrified

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<v Speaker 1>at what was going on. But the headsman, after he

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<v Speaker 1>got her head off, he took hold of the severed

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<v Speaker 1>head and he held it up in front of the

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<v Speaker 1>crowd so he could hold up the severed head and

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<v Speaker 1>say God save Queen Elizabeth. But he grasped Mary's head

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<v Speaker 1>by the hair, and it turned out the hair was

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<v Speaker 1>a wig, so the head fell down and rolled away,

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<v Speaker 1>leaving him holding only a hacked up, bloody wig while

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<v Speaker 1>proclaiming his true queen. And then another part of the story,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe maybe not to be believed, is that after Mary's

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<v Speaker 1>head rolled away, her lips kept moving as if she

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<v Speaker 1>was talking or praying. Okay, some of that sounds like

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<v Speaker 1>it might have been embellished, but it also sounds like

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<v Speaker 1>this guy was a real hack, no pun intended. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I got an even worse hack for you, because there

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<v Speaker 1>was a seventeenth century English executioner named jack Ketch. Catch

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<v Speaker 1>spelled as like catch up, catch yeah, or like what's

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<v Speaker 1>the kid in the Pokemon's I have no idea. Our

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<v Speaker 1>very knowledgeable producer Paul just tells me it is ash

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<v Speaker 1>catch him. Okay, I guess he's got to catch him.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, it's like jack Ketch him right, the harr rider.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what comes to my mind. I don't well anyway,

0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:48.560
<v Speaker 1>this is jack Ketch K E T C H so

0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:52.640
<v Speaker 1>Jack Ketch birthday unknown died in six six who was

0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:56.000
<v Speaker 1>notorious for being a complete screw up at his job

0:11:56.280 --> 0:12:01.400
<v Speaker 1>and bungling executions. A couple of examples. In sixteen eighty three,

0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:04.559
<v Speaker 1>Catch performed the beheading of William Lord Russell, who was

0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:07.839
<v Speaker 1>convicted for treason in his role of in his role

0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:10.520
<v Speaker 1>in the Rye House plot, which was against King Charles

0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:13.920
<v Speaker 1>the Second of England, and Catches beheading of Russell was

0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:18.040
<v Speaker 1>reportedly just this clumsy horror, with Catch whacking Russell again

0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:20.920
<v Speaker 1>and again with the axe, but repeatedly failing to get

0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:24.520
<v Speaker 1>his head off. And apparently after this, Catch defended himself

0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:28.160
<v Speaker 1>by complaining that Russell wouldn't hold still. And then you

0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:32.440
<v Speaker 1>got the second one later, James, Duke of Monmouth, he

0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:35.120
<v Speaker 1>went to the block for the Monmouth Rebellion of sixteen

0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:38.160
<v Speaker 1>eighty five, and he tried to pay Catch not to

0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:42.480
<v Speaker 1>screw up his execution. He's recorded as saying, quote, here

0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:45.480
<v Speaker 1>are six guineas for you, pray do your business well

0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:48.120
<v Speaker 1>do not serve me as you did, my Lord Russell.

0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:50.960
<v Speaker 1>I have heard you struck him three or four times.

0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:54.240
<v Speaker 1>Then Monmouth gave three more guineas to his servant who

0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:57.280
<v Speaker 1>was standing nearby, and told his servant to pay Catch

0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.080
<v Speaker 1>only if Catch did the beheading correct to Lee. And

0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:05.200
<v Speaker 1>then Catch said, I hope I shall. Then Monmouth asked

0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:07.480
<v Speaker 1>to feel the axe blade, and he did, and he

0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:10.880
<v Speaker 1>complained that this is too dull, and Catch said, no,

0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:14.480
<v Speaker 1>it's sharp enough, it'll be heavy enough. So Monmouth got

0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:17.880
<v Speaker 1>down in place to accept his fate, and Catch brought

0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:20.520
<v Speaker 1>the axe down on Monmouth, and at this point it

0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:24.120
<v Speaker 1>is reported that after he got hit, Monmouth lifted his

0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:27.559
<v Speaker 1>head up and turned around and glared at Catch angrily.

0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:31.920
<v Speaker 1>Then he got back down so Ketch could hit him again,

0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:35.280
<v Speaker 1>and Catch hit him several more times, failing each time

0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.200
<v Speaker 1>to be head him. Then Catch got frustrated and tried

0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:40.840
<v Speaker 1>to walk away and quit in the middle of the execution,

0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:43.840
<v Speaker 1>while Monmouth was still alive. But the crowd yelled at

0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:45.680
<v Speaker 1>him and told him to go back and finish it,

0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:49.120
<v Speaker 1>so finally he went back. After some more blows and

0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:51.400
<v Speaker 1>the use of a knife, he finally managed to get

0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:54.800
<v Speaker 1>the Duke's head off. Well, that's awful. This guy is

0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:57.120
<v Speaker 1>a true hack. I wonder if that's where the word

0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:00.760
<v Speaker 1>hat comes perhaps. Uh yeah, But so you had people

0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:04.240
<v Speaker 1>whose job it was to administer what I guess was

0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:06.840
<v Speaker 1>supposed to be the more humane form of execution at

0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:09.960
<v Speaker 1>the time. I mean, this is different than being you know, uh,

0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:12.960
<v Speaker 1>tortured and hanged and drawn and quartered and all that.

0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:16.400
<v Speaker 1>But he this is obviously not going the way it's

0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:19.160
<v Speaker 1>supposed to. And if we're going inspired by the Greek

0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:21.960
<v Speaker 1>and Roman model, something is obviously wrong here, Like not

0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:25.040
<v Speaker 1>only is it unnecessarily painful, this does not really seem

0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:28.880
<v Speaker 1>like an honorable death. This seems humiliating. Yeah, there's nothing

0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:31.640
<v Speaker 1>noble about this, you know, it's this is not a

0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:35.400
<v Speaker 1>finely craft instrument wielded by a by and by an

0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:39.720
<v Speaker 1>expert practitioner. This is just a clumsy exercise and horror.

0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:43.880
<v Speaker 1>But what if mechanical controls could be set in place

0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:48.520
<v Speaker 1>the same level of perfection, regardless of whoever you know

0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:51.200
<v Speaker 1>happens to be wearing the hood, how tired they are,

0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:54.240
<v Speaker 1>what sort of weapon they're using, or what sort of

0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:58.520
<v Speaker 1>six stuff they're into. A machine that cannot get tired,

0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:02.240
<v Speaker 1>it can't hesitate or engage in unfair punishment. It's not

0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:07.120
<v Speaker 1>gonna judge you based on your your royal or commoner status.

0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:11.720
<v Speaker 1>A good blade, some gravity, and a simple frame with

0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:15.320
<v Speaker 1>a necklock, well that would be the guillotine. All right,

0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:17.080
<v Speaker 1>We're gonna take a quick break, and when we come

0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:21.240
<v Speaker 1>back we will discuss some precursors to the guillotine and

0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:29.960
<v Speaker 1>the guillotine itself. All right, we're back. So the guillotine

0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:33.080
<v Speaker 1>of late eighteenth century France, which I'm sure you've heard

0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:35.920
<v Speaker 1>about before, that was involved in the French Revolution, the

0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:39.760
<v Speaker 1>Reign of Terror, the first French Republic. That guillotine was

0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:43.560
<v Speaker 1>not the first human head removal machine, not by a

0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:45.320
<v Speaker 1>long shot. And we're not saying it was. You know

0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:47.840
<v Speaker 1>that it was predated by people swinging in axe or

0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:49.840
<v Speaker 1>a sword with their hands, of course it was. But

0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:54.359
<v Speaker 1>there were organized machines for doing this job more efficiently

0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:57.840
<v Speaker 1>and in a more consistent way before the guillotine was

0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:01.680
<v Speaker 1>instituted in France, right, and they worked along the same principles.

0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:05.480
<v Speaker 1>They maybe they weren't quite as refined, but essentially the

0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:08.040
<v Speaker 1>idea is there that we should say that it was

0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:10.760
<v Speaker 1>only in the aftermath of the French Revolution that people

0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:14.760
<v Speaker 1>began referring to decapitation machines as guillotine. That's where the

0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:18.840
<v Speaker 1>name comes from. Yes, they had equally less refined names.

0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:22.000
<v Speaker 1>They had more grizzly names. One finds we'll meet a

0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:25.080
<v Speaker 1>couple in a moment. So as for who invented the

0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:29.560
<v Speaker 1>first general decapitation machine, this is totally unknown, lost to history,

0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:31.840
<v Speaker 1>and in fact, we don't even know for sure how

0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:35.000
<v Speaker 1>many societies used a device like this. There there are

0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:37.080
<v Speaker 1>a lot of tales, but many of these tales might

0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:39.240
<v Speaker 1>not even be true. We don't know for sure, right,

0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:43.080
<v Speaker 1>And then how often is the individual uh celebrated for

0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:46.920
<v Speaker 1>creating such a thing? As we'll discover the naming of

0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:49.920
<v Speaker 1>the guillotine, and it doesn't really relate to the individual

0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:52.640
<v Speaker 1>or individuals that created it, right. I mean a lot

0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:56.080
<v Speaker 1>of people who create execution devices don't want to be

0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:59.120
<v Speaker 1>associated with And when you find the people who do

0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:01.120
<v Speaker 1>want to be associated with them or don't mind, you've

0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:04.080
<v Speaker 1>got to kind of wonder about those people. Um. So,

0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:07.600
<v Speaker 1>there are a couple of known mechanical beheading devices from

0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:11.160
<v Speaker 1>England that predated the French guillotine, and one is known

0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:15.159
<v Speaker 1>as the Halifax Gibbet, so the how. Halifax is a

0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:17.560
<v Speaker 1>town in West Yorkshire in England, and it had this

0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:20.840
<v Speaker 1>infamous beheading machine known as the Halifax Gibbet, which was

0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:24.800
<v Speaker 1>allegedly used mostly to punish petty theft. So people would

0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:27.600
<v Speaker 1>steal some small sum of money or something worth not

0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:31.679
<v Speaker 1>very much, some cloth or something, and into the Halifax

0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:35.520
<v Speaker 1>Gibbet they would go. It was described in an eighteen

0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:38.840
<v Speaker 1>thirty seven history by an author named William White in

0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:42.679
<v Speaker 1>the following way quote. The executions always took place on

0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.680
<v Speaker 1>the Great market day in order to strike the more

0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:48.919
<v Speaker 1>terror into the neighborhood. When the criminal was brought to

0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:51.440
<v Speaker 1>the gibbet, which stood a little way out of the town,

0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:54.240
<v Speaker 1>where part of the stone platform may still be seen

0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:57.720
<v Speaker 1>on Gibbet Hill. The execution was performed by means of

0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:00.920
<v Speaker 1>an engine, which was raised upon a plat form four

0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:04.399
<v Speaker 1>ft high and thirteen feet square, faced on every side

0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:07.439
<v Speaker 1>with stone, and ascended by a flight of steps. In

0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:10.680
<v Speaker 1>the middle of this platform was placed two upright pieces

0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:13.800
<v Speaker 1>of timber fifteen feet high, joined at the top by

0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:17.639
<v Speaker 1>a transverse beam. Within these was a square block of

0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:21.000
<v Speaker 1>wood four ft and a half long, which moved up

0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:23.840
<v Speaker 1>and down by means of grooves made for that purpose.

0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.480
<v Speaker 1>To the lower part of the sliding block was fastened

0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:29.480
<v Speaker 1>in iron axe of the weight of seven pounds and

0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:33.040
<v Speaker 1>twelve ounces. The axe, thus fixed, was drawn up to

0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:35.600
<v Speaker 1>the top by a cord and pulley. At the end

0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:38.240
<v Speaker 1>of the cord was a pin, which, being fixed to

0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:41.560
<v Speaker 1>the block, kept it suspended till the moment of execution.

0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:44.320
<v Speaker 1>When the culprit, having placed his head on the block,

0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:47.680
<v Speaker 1>the pin was withdrawn and his head was instantly severed

0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:51.200
<v Speaker 1>from his body. If the offender was condemned for stealing

0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:54.080
<v Speaker 1>an ox, a sheep or a horse, the end of

0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:57.840
<v Speaker 1>the rope was fastened to the beast, which, being driven,

0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:01.520
<v Speaker 1>pulled out the pin and thus be came the executioner.

0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:04.560
<v Speaker 1>In other cases, the bailiff for his servant cut the

0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:07.880
<v Speaker 1>rope and allowed the axe to descend. It's a little

0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:12.600
<v Speaker 1>unnecessary complexity involving fim animals, but otherwise the basic principles

0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:14.560
<v Speaker 1>of the guillotine as we've come to know it. Yeah,

0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:16.760
<v Speaker 1>it's more or less there there. There might be some

0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:20.479
<v Speaker 1>design refinements we come on later, but this is the idea.

0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:23.879
<v Speaker 1>It's it's a reliable consistent machine that's not going to

0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:26.520
<v Speaker 1>mess up, right. And of course it doesn't sound like

0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:29.000
<v Speaker 1>it was necessarily a custom blade, or maybe it was,

0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:30.840
<v Speaker 1>but it's very much based on the design of an

0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:34.320
<v Speaker 1>axe blade. Yeah, and when you see illustrations it looks

0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:36.760
<v Speaker 1>like just a large axe head on the bottom of

0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:40.159
<v Speaker 1>a huge wooden block. Uh So, this beheading machine of

0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:43.720
<v Speaker 1>Halifax was famous enough that the English poet John Taylor

0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:48.880
<v Speaker 1>referenced it alongside the notoriously tough police of Kingston upon

0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:51.480
<v Speaker 1>Hull in a poem uh that that I thought was

0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:54.399
<v Speaker 1>pretty good. He writes, there is a proverb and a

0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:58.120
<v Speaker 1>prayer withal that we may not to Three strange places

0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:02.920
<v Speaker 1>fall from Hull, from Halifax, from Hell. 'tis thus from

0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:07.159
<v Speaker 1>all these three good Lord deliver us at Halifax. The

0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:10.400
<v Speaker 1>law so sharp doth deal that whoso more than one

0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:14.520
<v Speaker 1>threepence doth steal. They have a lynn that wondrous, quick

0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:17.880
<v Speaker 1>and well. Since thieves all headless unto Heaven or Hell.

0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:21.880
<v Speaker 1>From Hell, each man says, Lord, deliver me, because from

0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:25.640
<v Speaker 1>Hell can no redemption be men may escape from Hull

0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:29.479
<v Speaker 1>and Halifax, but sure in Hell there is a heavier tax.

0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:32.520
<v Speaker 1>It sounds pretty grim, well, I like how it's sort

0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:35.720
<v Speaker 1>of captures two themes there. One is that how the

0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:38.919
<v Speaker 1>Halifax jibbit is deadly and something to be feared, but

0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:42.440
<v Speaker 1>it also contrasts it with the supposed tortures of Hell.

0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:45.600
<v Speaker 1>I guess you can emphasizing that, well, it's not as

0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:49.480
<v Speaker 1>torturous as many of the other methods that are being used. Yeah,

0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:51.760
<v Speaker 1>he's almost describing it like it's a like it's a

0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:56.960
<v Speaker 1>plane ticket to too greater rewards are suffering depending on

0:20:57.560 --> 0:21:01.080
<v Speaker 1>how one supernatural revenge fantasy is hang out here. But

0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:03.280
<v Speaker 1>on the other hand, I like that it is to

0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:08.240
<v Speaker 1>a certain extent farm animals, uh you know. Notwithstanding, it

0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:12.320
<v Speaker 1>is to a certain extent saving the horrors of an

0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:16.960
<v Speaker 1>afterlife for those imagined afterlife and not trying to um

0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:21.199
<v Speaker 1>embody them too much in the act of execution itself. Yeah. Now,

0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:23.600
<v Speaker 1>whether that's actually a good thing or not, we can

0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:26.280
<v Speaker 1>discuss later, but it does seem to be there's at

0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:30.840
<v Speaker 1>least there's at least a superficial kind of humaneness to write,

0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:33.320
<v Speaker 1>even though it seems to be being lumped on people

0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:37.400
<v Speaker 1>who commit extremely pack crimes and not and no matter

0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:41.680
<v Speaker 1>what you think, really probably deserving of death. But there's

0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:45.680
<v Speaker 1>some strange stories about how people reacted to what happened

0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:48.800
<v Speaker 1>with at the Halifax Gibbitt. The story in Thomas Wright

0:21:48.880 --> 0:21:52.320
<v Speaker 1>tells a legend quote of a countrywoman who was writing

0:21:52.320 --> 0:21:55.399
<v Speaker 1>by the gibbet on her hampers to the market just

0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:58.159
<v Speaker 1>at the execution of a criminal when the acts chopped

0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:01.560
<v Speaker 1>his neck through with such four that the head jumped

0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:04.840
<v Speaker 1>into one of her hampers, or as others say, seized

0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:08.440
<v Speaker 1>her apron with the teeth and they're stuck for some time.

0:22:09.520 --> 0:22:12.200
<v Speaker 1>I don't believe that's true, or at least the teeth.

0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:14.440
<v Speaker 1>I don't believe. Again, we're coming back to the sort

0:22:14.480 --> 0:22:19.320
<v Speaker 1>of inherent comedy. I mean, it's true gallows humor, uh

0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:24.080
<v Speaker 1>that comes with beheading executions. But there's an interesting observation

0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:28.000
<v Speaker 1>from the Halifax historian John Crabtree, who has a sort

0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:31.959
<v Speaker 1>of attitude about what stories like this mean. He writes, quote,

0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:34.760
<v Speaker 1>it is useless employing words about this fair, but the

0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:38.640
<v Speaker 1>circumstance may serve to show with what apathy the country

0:22:38.640 --> 0:22:42.520
<v Speaker 1>people regarded this mode of punishment. Their minds were evidently

0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:46.840
<v Speaker 1>hardened by such exhibitions, and the fact develops the inadequacy

0:22:46.880 --> 0:22:50.480
<v Speaker 1>of such awful administrations of justice to produce that proper

0:22:50.560 --> 0:22:55.520
<v Speaker 1>moral and salutary effect which might have been anticipated. Such scenes,

0:22:55.600 --> 0:22:59.879
<v Speaker 1>often repeated, appear to harden, rather than soften, to stoop

0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:03.639
<v Speaker 1>fi rather than awakened, the sensibilities of man's nature. And

0:23:03.680 --> 0:23:06.400
<v Speaker 1>I think we should come back to that thought later on. Indeed,

0:23:06.440 --> 0:23:08.160
<v Speaker 1>all right, so what else do we have in terms

0:23:08.160 --> 0:23:12.719
<v Speaker 1>of proto guillotine machines. Well, a quicker story is just

0:23:12.920 --> 0:23:16.639
<v Speaker 1>a copy essentially of the Halifax Gibbet, known as the

0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:20.520
<v Speaker 1>Scottish Maiden. So James Douglas, the fourth Earl of Morton,

0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:23.240
<v Speaker 1>who was the ruler of Scotland from fifteen seventy two

0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:25.840
<v Speaker 1>to fifteen seventy eight, he was alleged at some point

0:23:25.880 --> 0:23:30.320
<v Speaker 1>to have introduced the decapitation machine to his country of Scots,

0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:33.480
<v Speaker 1>inspired by the Halifax Gibbett. Allegedly, he at some point

0:23:33.520 --> 0:23:36.560
<v Speaker 1>traveled through Halifax and he was so inspired by the

0:23:36.600 --> 0:23:38.880
<v Speaker 1>gibbet that he thought, well, I should share this same

0:23:38.920 --> 0:23:42.600
<v Speaker 1>technology with my countrymen. So a similar machine was built

0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:44.879
<v Speaker 1>out of oak, and it could be transported around the

0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:47.960
<v Speaker 1>country to perform beheadings wherever, but it was often accepting

0:23:48.000 --> 0:23:51.480
<v Speaker 1>the condemned at Edinburgh, and according to the National Museums

0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:53.679
<v Speaker 1>of Scotland, crimes that could get you sent to the

0:23:53.720 --> 0:24:01.280
<v Speaker 1>Scottish Maiden included murder, incest, stealing, treason, adultery, forgery and robbery.

0:24:01.320 --> 0:24:05.000
<v Speaker 1>But there's an ironic twist, so James Douglas, the Earl,

0:24:05.119 --> 0:24:08.359
<v Speaker 1>fourth Earl of Morton was a supporter of James the sixth,

0:24:08.560 --> 0:24:12.440
<v Speaker 1>and Morton opposed the Catholic faction of Mary, Queen of

0:24:12.440 --> 0:24:15.480
<v Speaker 1>Scott's who he discussed earlier, Mary Stewart, and he was

0:24:15.520 --> 0:24:19.480
<v Speaker 1>eventually implicated in a plot to murder Mary's second husband,

0:24:19.560 --> 0:24:24.240
<v Speaker 1>Lord Darnley, and was put to death in June, decapitated

0:24:24.240 --> 0:24:28.000
<v Speaker 1>by the Scottish Maiden that he brought to Scotland. Ah,

0:24:28.040 --> 0:24:32.879
<v Speaker 1>there's your poetic justice, and legends of that kind will

0:24:32.920 --> 0:24:35.600
<v Speaker 1>appear again and again in this episode. Actually, well, yes,

0:24:35.720 --> 0:24:37.919
<v Speaker 1>and even beyond this episode, because this isn't that a

0:24:38.000 --> 0:24:42.520
<v Speaker 1>common theme? The man destroyed by his own invention, by

0:24:42.560 --> 0:24:45.240
<v Speaker 1>his own machine. It happens enough in the movies that

0:24:45.280 --> 0:24:48.280
<v Speaker 1>you should think it happens more often in reality. Though

0:24:48.280 --> 0:24:51.040
<v Speaker 1>in the movies is especially common when that invention is

0:24:51.080 --> 0:24:54.399
<v Speaker 1>some kind of hybrid animal, like I created a shark ape,

0:24:54.480 --> 0:24:57.200
<v Speaker 1>and you know, it swings from the trees, taking bites

0:24:57.240 --> 0:25:00.640
<v Speaker 1>out of people who could have known my arcape would

0:25:00.640 --> 0:25:04.080
<v Speaker 1>turn on me, and yet it always happens. Alright. So,

0:25:04.359 --> 0:25:07.400
<v Speaker 1>as we've been discussing, there were similar devices already used

0:25:07.440 --> 0:25:10.800
<v Speaker 1>in Europe and had been for centuries before the guillotine

0:25:10.800 --> 0:25:13.600
<v Speaker 1>came around. But the individual who is often credited as

0:25:13.640 --> 0:25:17.640
<v Speaker 1>the inventor of the guillotine, uh is a French surgeon

0:25:17.800 --> 0:25:24.040
<v Speaker 1>and physiologist Antoine Louis, who lives seventeen through seventeen two. Yeah,

0:25:24.080 --> 0:25:27.240
<v Speaker 1>he is often credited as the inventor, though based on

0:25:27.359 --> 0:25:29.000
<v Speaker 1>what I was reading, it appears to me it was

0:25:29.160 --> 0:25:32.600
<v Speaker 1>maybe designed by some sort of committee of which Louis

0:25:32.760 --> 0:25:35.320
<v Speaker 1>was the leader. Right. And this is actually all the

0:25:35.359 --> 0:25:38.320
<v Speaker 1>more fitting U when we really get to the heart

0:25:38.359 --> 0:25:41.520
<v Speaker 1>of the guillotine here, because it is this this thing

0:25:41.640 --> 0:25:44.760
<v Speaker 1>that is it is this utilization of technology and this

0:25:44.960 --> 0:25:48.400
<v Speaker 1>there's a there's an air of civility to it. Uh.

0:25:48.520 --> 0:25:51.399
<v Speaker 1>This this taking something that is kind of that is

0:25:51.480 --> 0:25:54.440
<v Speaker 1>rather barbaric and making it a little less so. Well,

0:25:54.480 --> 0:25:58.960
<v Speaker 1>it's bureaucratic violence. Yes, it very much embodies the idea

0:25:59.359 --> 0:26:01.800
<v Speaker 1>of retrie bet of violence by the state. Taken out

0:26:01.800 --> 0:26:05.000
<v Speaker 1>of the emotional hands of the single executioner and placed

0:26:05.040 --> 0:26:08.520
<v Speaker 1>into the hands of a disembodied machine that is created

0:26:08.560 --> 0:26:11.359
<v Speaker 1>by a committee through drafts. Yes, you know, we have

0:26:11.400 --> 0:26:14.760
<v Speaker 1>another episode that we're recording this week on vending machines.

0:26:15.040 --> 0:26:18.720
<v Speaker 1>And it's amazing this the similarities involved here, this this

0:26:18.840 --> 0:26:23.320
<v Speaker 1>these sometimes these struggles over what exactly is happening when

0:26:23.320 --> 0:26:25.520
<v Speaker 1>a machine does the bidding of a human. If a

0:26:25.600 --> 0:26:29.960
<v Speaker 1>machine is vending, say, blasphemous literature, as we're discussing this

0:26:30.000 --> 0:26:33.720
<v Speaker 1>other episode, then who is it fault foresaid literature sale

0:26:34.320 --> 0:26:36.200
<v Speaker 1>and uh, And there's a sense of that here too.

0:26:36.240 --> 0:26:39.879
<v Speaker 1>It's like the bureaucracy has condemned you to death. The

0:26:39.960 --> 0:26:44.600
<v Speaker 1>machine is actually doing the execution. We're just merely you know,

0:26:44.640 --> 0:26:47.399
<v Speaker 1>pushing the button, pulling the string, et cetera, to carry

0:26:47.400 --> 0:26:50.000
<v Speaker 1>out this judgment. Right, But we do at least have

0:26:50.080 --> 0:26:53.080
<v Speaker 1>Antoine Louis to associate with the creation of the machine,

0:26:53.119 --> 0:26:56.359
<v Speaker 1>even if it wasn't just him alone, but because of

0:26:56.480 --> 0:26:59.800
<v Speaker 1>his association with it, it was often early on it

0:26:59.840 --> 0:27:02.960
<v Speaker 1>was hold names, not the guillotine yet, but names like

0:27:03.000 --> 0:27:06.000
<v Speaker 1>the Louisette or the louis Zone, which doesn't have as

0:27:06.080 --> 0:27:08.000
<v Speaker 1>much of a ring to it. I kind of like it.

0:27:08.640 --> 0:27:11.520
<v Speaker 1>I could see executions by the Louisette. Yeah, I guess

0:27:11.560 --> 0:27:13.960
<v Speaker 1>it would have grown on us. But at any rate,

0:27:14.040 --> 0:27:18.240
<v Speaker 1>later it definitely came to be named after Joseph Ignace

0:27:18.520 --> 0:27:23.320
<v Speaker 1>Guillotan who lived seventeen thirty eight through eighteen fourteen. He

0:27:23.480 --> 0:27:27.199
<v Speaker 1>was a physician. Uh, he was a National Assembly member,

0:27:27.440 --> 0:27:29.960
<v Speaker 1>and he played a major role in passing legislation that

0:27:30.080 --> 0:27:33.560
<v Speaker 1>made death by machine the law. The loose idea here

0:27:33.680 --> 0:27:36.760
<v Speaker 1>is that it would this kind of legislation would provide

0:27:36.800 --> 0:27:41.440
<v Speaker 1>the best possible version of beheading to all classes of society.

0:27:41.920 --> 0:27:44.240
<v Speaker 1>And we do have to point out that, despite some

0:27:44.480 --> 0:27:49.440
<v Speaker 1>urban legends out there, Guillotine himself was not killed by

0:27:49.440 --> 0:27:51.720
<v Speaker 1>his own machine, and he wasn't actually a huge fan

0:27:51.840 --> 0:27:54.639
<v Speaker 1>of execution either. It's not like he was a huge

0:27:55.240 --> 0:27:59.320
<v Speaker 1>execution enthusiasts. Well, no, exactly the opposite. Guilloton opposed the

0:27:59.320 --> 0:28:02.240
<v Speaker 1>death penalty. He wanted the abolition of the death penalty,

0:28:02.280 --> 0:28:05.640
<v Speaker 1>but he didn't think that he could accomplish that directly. Right,

0:28:05.680 --> 0:28:09.560
<v Speaker 1>this seemed the best reasonable next step. Right, It's like,

0:28:09.560 --> 0:28:11.720
<v Speaker 1>if I can't we can't eradicate it, We're going to

0:28:11.760 --> 0:28:14.879
<v Speaker 1>have it, we might as well make it clean and

0:28:15.040 --> 0:28:18.919
<v Speaker 1>uh and fair to all involved. According to a popular legend,

0:28:18.960 --> 0:28:22.880
<v Speaker 1>Guillotan was born when his pregnant mother was out walking

0:28:22.880 --> 0:28:25.879
<v Speaker 1>one day and she overheard the screams of a condemned

0:28:25.920 --> 0:28:28.840
<v Speaker 1>criminal being broken on the wheel. And breaking on the

0:28:28.840 --> 0:28:32.080
<v Speaker 1>wheel was you know, a classic death by torture type method,

0:28:32.119 --> 0:28:34.439
<v Speaker 1>where a person would be stretched out on a wheel

0:28:34.760 --> 0:28:36.800
<v Speaker 1>in a kind of starfish post and they have their

0:28:36.840 --> 0:28:39.479
<v Speaker 1>limbs broken with an iron rod or with a club.

0:28:40.480 --> 0:28:44.520
<v Speaker 1>Just insane brutality. So he was very much opposed to

0:28:44.600 --> 0:28:46.480
<v Speaker 1>that sort of thing, not only just the bar the

0:28:46.520 --> 0:28:50.280
<v Speaker 1>barbaric nature of the execution, but the public nature of it,

0:28:50.400 --> 0:28:54.600
<v Speaker 1>the idea that that women and children, uh, just innocent

0:28:54.840 --> 0:28:59.760
<v Speaker 1>bystanders might just walk through town and witness such such

0:29:00.000 --> 0:29:03.160
<v Speaker 1>are So he was thinking, maybe if less children end

0:29:03.240 --> 0:29:05.800
<v Speaker 1>up watching this, the better, Yes, and make it. Yeah,

0:29:05.840 --> 0:29:08.800
<v Speaker 1>it's more systematic, it's more you know that the act

0:29:08.840 --> 0:29:11.640
<v Speaker 1>itself is less flashy, and then we're just gonna make

0:29:11.640 --> 0:29:15.400
<v Speaker 1>it less for performance. So Guillotam was not out there

0:29:15.520 --> 0:29:19.360
<v Speaker 1>lobbying to get this machine named after his family, No, No,

0:29:19.560 --> 0:29:22.040
<v Speaker 1>it just it ended up sticking. Now a cool little

0:29:22.040 --> 0:29:24.280
<v Speaker 1>fact here that sounds like something right out of an

0:29:24.280 --> 0:29:28.440
<v Speaker 1>Alan Moore comic book. But along with Benjamin Franklin, Uh,

0:29:28.560 --> 0:29:33.680
<v Speaker 1>Guillotine investigated the work of Franz Mesmer of Mesmerism, you know,

0:29:33.760 --> 0:29:37.880
<v Speaker 1>the the the form of hypnotism that we had back

0:29:37.920 --> 0:29:40.800
<v Speaker 1>in the day. Uh, And they investigated him on behalf

0:29:41.000 --> 0:29:47.960
<v Speaker 1>of King Louis the League of Extraordinary Gentleman exactly. So

0:29:48.000 --> 0:29:51.040
<v Speaker 1>another way of thinking, you alluded to this a minute ago, Robert,

0:29:51.080 --> 0:29:53.520
<v Speaker 1>like the idea that it would be the best method

0:29:53.800 --> 0:29:57.080
<v Speaker 1>for all the classes. So another way of thinking about

0:29:57.080 --> 0:30:00.479
<v Speaker 1>the motivation for the institution of the guillotine at this

0:30:00.560 --> 0:30:05.080
<v Speaker 1>time in history was that it supposedly extended the democratic

0:30:05.200 --> 0:30:10.280
<v Speaker 1>and egalitarian principles of the French Revolution to common criminals,

0:30:10.560 --> 0:30:15.280
<v Speaker 1>essentially extending them the courtesy of the honorable beheading that

0:30:15.400 --> 0:30:19.280
<v Speaker 1>was more often reserved for nobles and aristocrats instead of

0:30:19.320 --> 0:30:23.280
<v Speaker 1>more shameful and common and painful deaths like hanging, burning,

0:30:23.400 --> 0:30:25.320
<v Speaker 1>or breaking on the wheel, which you were more likely

0:30:25.360 --> 0:30:28.640
<v Speaker 1>to get if you were just some lower class petty criminal. Now,

0:30:28.680 --> 0:30:31.560
<v Speaker 1>as for the idea Guillotan had, thinking that this would

0:30:31.560 --> 0:30:36.200
<v Speaker 1>shield children from the gruesome practice of execution, Unfortunately this

0:30:36.280 --> 0:30:39.160
<v Speaker 1>did not work out. I was reading a section from

0:30:39.560 --> 0:30:43.080
<v Speaker 1>a book called Children's Toys of Bygone Days, A History

0:30:43.080 --> 0:30:46.560
<v Speaker 1>of playthings of all people's from prehistoric times to the

0:30:46.640 --> 0:30:50.719
<v Speaker 1>nineteenth century by Carl Grober, published in nineteen twenty eight,

0:30:51.240 --> 0:30:54.920
<v Speaker 1>and the author writes, quote, the worst monstrosity of the

0:30:55.000 --> 0:30:57.840
<v Speaker 1>kind was the outcome of the French Revolution, which indeed

0:30:57.920 --> 0:31:01.800
<v Speaker 1>was over rich in aberrations of east. The toy shops

0:31:01.920 --> 0:31:06.080
<v Speaker 1>put on the market little guillotines with which little patriots

0:31:06.120 --> 0:31:10.160
<v Speaker 1>could be head figures of aristocrats. There still survives some

0:31:10.240 --> 0:31:13.760
<v Speaker 1>specimens of this pretty and diverting machine, one of which

0:31:13.840 --> 0:31:17.040
<v Speaker 1>bears the date seventeen four, and he's got an illustration.

0:31:17.560 --> 0:31:20.440
<v Speaker 1>These were not models, but pure toys. And in proof

0:31:20.440 --> 0:31:23.320
<v Speaker 1>of this we have the king's evidence from one whom

0:31:23.400 --> 0:31:26.880
<v Speaker 1>we should never suspect of wishing to give so bloodthirsty

0:31:26.920 --> 0:31:30.120
<v Speaker 1>a toy to his little son. And here the author

0:31:30.200 --> 0:31:33.560
<v Speaker 1>is speaking of the romantic poet Johann wolf Kan von Gurta.

0:31:34.640 --> 0:31:39.480
<v Speaker 1>So Gruber tells the story and that in December seventeen

0:31:40.080 --> 0:31:43.280
<v Speaker 1>Girta wrote a letter to his mother and Frankfort, asking

0:31:43.320 --> 0:31:46.320
<v Speaker 1>if she would buy a toy guillotine for his little son.

0:31:46.920 --> 0:31:49.760
<v Speaker 1>And she replied, dear son, anything I can do to

0:31:49.840 --> 0:31:52.200
<v Speaker 1>please you is gladly done and gives me joy. But

0:31:52.280 --> 0:31:55.280
<v Speaker 1>to buy such an infamous implement of murder that I

0:31:55.360 --> 0:31:58.040
<v Speaker 1>will not do at any price. If I had authority,

0:31:58.120 --> 0:32:00.120
<v Speaker 1>the maker should be put in the stocks, and I

0:32:00.160 --> 0:32:03.480
<v Speaker 1>would have the machine publicly burnt by the common executioner.

0:32:04.200 --> 0:32:06.080
<v Speaker 1>And I guess this is sort of the seventeen nineties

0:32:06.120 --> 0:32:08.680
<v Speaker 1>equivalent of like asking your grandmother to buy you a

0:32:08.720 --> 0:32:11.720
<v Speaker 1>copy of Doom for Christmas in the nineteen nineties. Yeah, well,

0:32:11.720 --> 0:32:14.959
<v Speaker 1>I'm glad that you brought up Doom here. And just

0:32:15.000 --> 0:32:17.200
<v Speaker 1>because it's it's easy for us to look back on

0:32:17.200 --> 0:32:19.560
<v Speaker 1>this account and think, oh, these children of a more

0:32:20.440 --> 0:32:24.400
<v Speaker 1>barbarous age. But go to any toy store and look

0:32:24.640 --> 0:32:30.160
<v Speaker 1>at the machine gun based toys that are on display. There,

0:32:30.160 --> 0:32:34.080
<v Speaker 1>all the various guns like true true murder weapons. Um,

0:32:34.440 --> 0:32:38.719
<v Speaker 1>not even methods of bureaucratic execution, but weapons of just

0:32:38.800 --> 0:32:44.680
<v Speaker 1>wanton violence. Uh, these are all represented in toys even today. Uh. Likewise,

0:32:44.720 --> 0:32:47.120
<v Speaker 1>I can't help but think back on how much I

0:32:47.160 --> 0:32:49.800
<v Speaker 1>wanted the slime pit when I was a kid. Do

0:32:49.800 --> 0:32:52.080
<v Speaker 1>you know that this was a master's of the universe.

0:32:52.400 --> 0:32:56.000
<v Speaker 1>Place set the device and basically you would lock he

0:32:56.120 --> 0:32:59.600
<v Speaker 1>man or some other figure into the machine and it

0:32:59.640 --> 0:33:01.560
<v Speaker 1>was like shape like a skull, and then it would

0:33:01.640 --> 0:33:04.240
<v Speaker 1>dump slime on top of the head of the poor hero.

0:33:04.680 --> 0:33:06.880
<v Speaker 1>And it was I think maybe the actual lore of

0:33:06.920 --> 0:33:08.760
<v Speaker 1>it was like I would make them mutate or something,

0:33:08.760 --> 0:33:11.600
<v Speaker 1>but it was very much Uh, it was very much

0:33:11.600 --> 0:33:14.240
<v Speaker 1>like a guillotine, except instead of a blade, it was slime.

0:33:14.320 --> 0:33:17.920
<v Speaker 1>It was like clearly an instrument of execution, of of

0:33:18.080 --> 0:33:22.440
<v Speaker 1>ritualized death for your toys. So you're arranging an execution

0:33:22.520 --> 0:33:25.800
<v Speaker 1>for he man exactly. So you know, the the idea

0:33:25.800 --> 0:33:29.880
<v Speaker 1>of a toy guillotine. It makes perfect sense. Uh, we can't.

0:33:29.960 --> 0:33:32.480
<v Speaker 1>We can only distance ourselves from such an idea so much.

0:33:32.640 --> 0:33:36.640
<v Speaker 1>Though I also have to wonder I somehow detect between

0:33:36.680 --> 0:33:39.200
<v Speaker 1>the lines. This could have been one of those situations

0:33:39.720 --> 0:33:42.120
<v Speaker 1>where and Robert, I bet you're familiar with this, where

0:33:42.120 --> 0:33:45.360
<v Speaker 1>a dad buys or requests a toy for his child

0:33:45.440 --> 0:33:49.800
<v Speaker 1>because secretly he wants to play. Uh. In fact, Gerta

0:33:49.840 --> 0:33:54.560
<v Speaker 1>wrote in Faust quote ages no second childhood age makes

0:33:54.600 --> 0:34:00.400
<v Speaker 1>plain children. We were true children. We remain again much

0:34:00.440 --> 0:34:03.040
<v Speaker 1>like it is today now we mentioned that Guillaton was

0:34:03.520 --> 0:34:08.200
<v Speaker 1>responsible for introducing legislation that would eventually lead the French

0:34:08.280 --> 0:34:11.160
<v Speaker 1>National Assembly to say, Okay, we're only going to be

0:34:11.239 --> 0:34:14.400
<v Speaker 1>killing people by beheading machine. Now that that's that's going

0:34:14.440 --> 0:34:17.480
<v Speaker 1>to be the new method of execution. That's what's humane,

0:34:17.520 --> 0:34:19.759
<v Speaker 1>that's what the state should be up to. And so

0:34:19.800 --> 0:34:21.520
<v Speaker 1>I think in just a minute we should turn to

0:34:21.680 --> 0:34:24.920
<v Speaker 1>the machine itself. But I just wanted quickly before we

0:34:24.960 --> 0:34:28.600
<v Speaker 1>do that, to discuss where it is that this rumor

0:34:28.719 --> 0:34:31.719
<v Speaker 1>came from. The Guillotan was killed by the machine that

0:34:31.800 --> 0:34:36.120
<v Speaker 1>he recommended putting in place for executions in France, and

0:34:36.160 --> 0:34:38.279
<v Speaker 1>I think I know maybe a few threads of where

0:34:38.320 --> 0:34:41.360
<v Speaker 1>the story came from. Obviously, we had that ironic story

0:34:41.400 --> 0:34:43.799
<v Speaker 1>of the Earl of Morton earlier, right, right, so we

0:34:43.800 --> 0:34:47.399
<v Speaker 1>can see how that might have influenced confused the telling, right.

0:34:47.440 --> 0:34:49.120
<v Speaker 1>But then there are a couple of other examples. So

0:34:49.280 --> 0:34:52.880
<v Speaker 1>Dr Antoine Louis, the secretary of the Academy of Medicine

0:34:52.920 --> 0:34:55.879
<v Speaker 1>and physician to King Louis the one who we talked

0:34:55.880 --> 0:35:00.200
<v Speaker 1>about earlier, chairing that committee that designed the device. He

0:35:00.480 --> 0:35:04.480
<v Speaker 1>was actually temporarily condemned to die in the machine that

0:35:04.560 --> 0:35:08.160
<v Speaker 1>he designed or helped design, though he escaped this fate

0:35:08.560 --> 0:35:11.800
<v Speaker 1>basically during a change of power. So he narrowly escaped

0:35:11.840 --> 0:35:15.560
<v Speaker 1>going to the guillotine himself. And then King Louis the sixteenth,

0:35:15.680 --> 0:35:18.960
<v Speaker 1>who was interested in mechanical engineering, is said to have

0:35:19.080 --> 0:35:22.040
<v Speaker 1>made refinements to the design of the guillotine, of like

0:35:22.120 --> 0:35:25.800
<v Speaker 1>recommending an angled blade while he was still in power,

0:35:26.200 --> 0:35:28.960
<v Speaker 1>before the device was eventually turned on the king himself

0:35:29.040 --> 0:35:31.759
<v Speaker 1>and on his wife Marie Antoinette. And so there's another

0:35:31.840 --> 0:35:35.240
<v Speaker 1>kind of like creator and then killed by his creation.

0:35:35.320 --> 0:35:38.760
<v Speaker 1>Irony there since he apparently or at least allegedly offered

0:35:38.800 --> 0:35:41.359
<v Speaker 1>refinements to the design. All right, Well, on that note,

0:35:41.400 --> 0:35:43.439
<v Speaker 1>we're gonna take one more break, and when we come back,

0:35:43.600 --> 0:35:47.040
<v Speaker 1>we'll discuss the machine itself in more detail, and we'll

0:35:47.080 --> 0:35:55.960
<v Speaker 1>also discuss its legacy. All right, we're back. So now

0:35:55.960 --> 0:35:58.600
<v Speaker 1>we're at the machine itself, the French guillotine of the

0:35:58.640 --> 0:36:01.920
<v Speaker 1>seventeen eighties and on word. And the question is was

0:36:01.960 --> 0:36:04.160
<v Speaker 1>it actually built? Well, of course it was. This one

0:36:04.239 --> 0:36:07.560
<v Speaker 1>was definitely built. Some of the inventions were discussing on

0:36:07.680 --> 0:36:09.960
<v Speaker 1>this show, you know, maybe didn't get out of the

0:36:10.000 --> 0:36:14.240
<v Speaker 1>blueprint phase. This definitely saw action. So after the legal

0:36:14.280 --> 0:36:17.120
<v Speaker 1>standard of execution by machine was approved by the National

0:36:17.120 --> 0:36:21.160
<v Speaker 1>Assembly in sev the construction of the machine was delegated

0:36:21.200 --> 0:36:26.359
<v Speaker 1>to a politician named Pierre Louis red Areo, who I'm

0:36:26.400 --> 0:36:28.400
<v Speaker 1>always going to struggle with that name, so I'll just

0:36:28.440 --> 0:36:31.640
<v Speaker 1>call him Pierre here. Uh. He apparently had trouble finding

0:36:31.640 --> 0:36:34.680
<v Speaker 1>a contractor who could build the machine since no one

0:36:34.760 --> 0:36:37.360
<v Speaker 1>wanted their name associated with it, and eventually found a

0:36:37.360 --> 0:36:40.680
<v Speaker 1>taker was a taker from Germany, and so the guillotine

0:36:40.760 --> 0:36:45.960
<v Speaker 1>was constructed by a German harpsichord maker named Tobias Schmidt.

0:36:46.600 --> 0:36:49.800
<v Speaker 1>Apparently he also supplied a leather sack that would catch heads.

0:36:49.880 --> 0:36:52.719
<v Speaker 1>Now you could you just gotta wonder about Tobias. I

0:36:52.719 --> 0:36:55.680
<v Speaker 1>can just imagine the scenario. It's like, so, honey, what

0:36:55.680 --> 0:36:58.360
<v Speaker 1>are you working on today? I get this new contracted

0:36:58.640 --> 0:37:00.000
<v Speaker 1>you know it pays well, it's gonna really help us

0:37:00.040 --> 0:37:02.839
<v Speaker 1>out next month. Oh, who are you putting a hot

0:37:02.920 --> 0:37:06.239
<v Speaker 1>harpsichord of chord for? Well, it's not quite a harpsichord. Well,

0:37:06.280 --> 0:37:09.480
<v Speaker 1>I'm just imagining you in his shop while he's working

0:37:09.520 --> 0:37:13.439
<v Speaker 1>on the guillotine, that harpsichord music is constantly playing. Dan

0:37:13.560 --> 0:37:17.520
<v Speaker 1>Dan Dan Dan Dan Dy. Anyway, according to the memoirs

0:37:17.640 --> 0:37:22.400
<v Speaker 1>of the French executioner Enrie Clements sans Song in eighteen

0:37:22.480 --> 0:37:25.759
<v Speaker 1>seventy six, saints On came from a line of a

0:37:25.840 --> 0:37:29.200
<v Speaker 1>long line of executioners, and he so he has these

0:37:29.200 --> 0:37:32.800
<v Speaker 1>memoirs about his family's exploits cutting off heads and performing

0:37:32.800 --> 0:37:37.040
<v Speaker 1>executions in France, and his memoirs are considered probably only

0:37:37.080 --> 0:37:40.400
<v Speaker 1>partially reliable. But his up close description of the workings

0:37:40.400 --> 0:37:43.040
<v Speaker 1>of the guillotine is fairly straightforward. So I see, I

0:37:43.080 --> 0:37:45.880
<v Speaker 1>feel like he's probably on the right track here. All right,

0:37:45.920 --> 0:37:47.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna read part of this and I'm gonna I'm

0:37:47.960 --> 0:37:51.080
<v Speaker 1>gonna go for an executioner's voice. Here do it. On

0:37:51.160 --> 0:37:54.000
<v Speaker 1>a scaffold from seven to eight feet high, two parallel

0:37:54.000 --> 0:37:56.879
<v Speaker 1>bars are made fast in one end. Their top part

0:37:57.280 --> 0:38:00.920
<v Speaker 1>is united by a strong crossbar. To this crossbar is

0:38:00.960 --> 0:38:03.400
<v Speaker 1>added a thick iron ring, and which is past a

0:38:03.480 --> 0:38:07.360
<v Speaker 1>rope which fixes and retains a ram. This is perpendicularly

0:38:07.440 --> 0:38:10.440
<v Speaker 1>armed with a sharp and broad blade, which gradually becomes

0:38:10.440 --> 0:38:14.680
<v Speaker 1>broader on all its surface, so that instead of striking perpendicularly,

0:38:15.040 --> 0:38:17.799
<v Speaker 1>it strikes sideways, so that there is not an inch

0:38:17.880 --> 0:38:21.080
<v Speaker 1>of the blade that does not serve the ram ways

0:38:21.160 --> 0:38:24.840
<v Speaker 1>from pounds, and its weight is doubled when it begins

0:38:24.880 --> 0:38:27.960
<v Speaker 1>to slide down. It is enclosed in the groove of

0:38:28.040 --> 0:38:31.319
<v Speaker 1>the bars. A spring makes it fast to the left bar.

0:38:31.600 --> 0:38:34.400
<v Speaker 1>A band of iron descends along the outside of the

0:38:34.440 --> 0:38:37.439
<v Speaker 1>same bar, and the handle is locked to a ring

0:38:37.520 --> 0:38:40.799
<v Speaker 1>with a padlock, so that no accident is possible and

0:38:40.840 --> 0:38:45.040
<v Speaker 1>the weight only falls from the executioner interferes to a

0:38:45.080 --> 0:38:48.560
<v Speaker 1>way plank. Strong straps are fastened by which the criminal

0:38:48.640 --> 0:38:51.680
<v Speaker 1>is attached under the armpits and over the legs, so

0:38:51.760 --> 0:38:54.560
<v Speaker 1>that the body cannot move as soon as the way

0:38:54.640 --> 0:38:58.160
<v Speaker 1>plank goes down. The head, being between the bars is

0:38:58.200 --> 0:39:02.440
<v Speaker 1>supported by a rounded crossbar, are the executioner's assistants lower

0:39:02.480 --> 0:39:06.480
<v Speaker 1>another rounded crossbar. The head, being thus grooved in a

0:39:06.520 --> 0:39:10.360
<v Speaker 1>perfect circle, would prevents it from moving in any way.

0:39:10.520 --> 0:39:14.839
<v Speaker 1>This precaution is indispensable in regard to the terrible inconvenience

0:39:14.840 --> 0:39:18.600
<v Speaker 1>as of fear. The executioner then touches the spring. The

0:39:18.640 --> 0:39:21.360
<v Speaker 1>whole affair has done so quickly that only the thump

0:39:21.440 --> 0:39:23.960
<v Speaker 1>of the blade when it slides down and forms the

0:39:23.960 --> 0:39:27.360
<v Speaker 1>spectators that the culprit is no longer of the living.

0:39:27.880 --> 0:39:30.360
<v Speaker 1>The head falls into a basket full of brand and

0:39:30.400 --> 0:39:34.080
<v Speaker 1>the body is pushed into another wicker basket line with

0:39:34.360 --> 0:39:39.319
<v Speaker 1>very thick leather. That's a heck of a rating, Robert. Yeah,

0:39:39.360 --> 0:39:40.880
<v Speaker 1>that was going to do a number on my throat.

0:39:40.920 --> 0:39:44.840
<v Speaker 1>But I'm sorry. Maybe I should have taken part of it,

0:39:44.880 --> 0:39:47.839
<v Speaker 1>but I was just enjoying listening to your Henri Clement. Well,

0:39:47.840 --> 0:39:51.279
<v Speaker 1>there's a precision in his in his description of the

0:39:51.320 --> 0:39:54.120
<v Speaker 1>act that I felt like I had had to capture

0:39:54.400 --> 0:39:58.080
<v Speaker 1>now obviously, so he's described how the device works now,

0:39:58.160 --> 0:40:00.279
<v Speaker 1>but they had to test it out before they can

0:40:00.360 --> 0:40:02.920
<v Speaker 1>make sure to try it on a human, right, So

0:40:03.840 --> 0:40:05.560
<v Speaker 1>you know you always wonder like, how do you test

0:40:05.560 --> 0:40:07.520
<v Speaker 1>a guillotine? You put a watermelon in there? Do you

0:40:07.560 --> 0:40:09.920
<v Speaker 1>gallagher it? Well, I suppose you could, but it's kind

0:40:09.920 --> 0:40:12.160
<v Speaker 1>of a waste of a good melon, And ultimately you

0:40:12.200 --> 0:40:13.640
<v Speaker 1>want to test it on the real thing, right, So

0:40:13.680 --> 0:40:16.920
<v Speaker 1>they use dead bodies. Oh yeah, also farm animals like

0:40:16.960 --> 0:40:19.400
<v Speaker 1>sheep and calves. Yeah, because you just I mean, it

0:40:19.440 --> 0:40:21.440
<v Speaker 1>makes sense. You want to make sure you're cutting through

0:40:21.600 --> 0:40:26.719
<v Speaker 1>actual vertebrate tissue there and most notably the neck and

0:40:26.760 --> 0:40:32.000
<v Speaker 1>then on a officials installed and use the guillotine for

0:40:32.040 --> 0:40:34.480
<v Speaker 1>the first time. Right, So, the first victim of the

0:40:34.480 --> 0:40:38.239
<v Speaker 1>French guillotine was Nicholas Jacques Beltier, who was a highwayman,

0:40:38.800 --> 0:40:41.839
<v Speaker 1>and he was executed where the machine was erected, at

0:40:41.880 --> 0:40:45.439
<v Speaker 1>the Plasta Grev And they're so a large crowd came out,

0:40:45.440 --> 0:40:48.440
<v Speaker 1>obviously to witness the first execution by the new machine.

0:40:48.800 --> 0:40:51.879
<v Speaker 1>But it was reported that the crowd was somewhat unimpressed

0:40:51.960 --> 0:40:55.879
<v Speaker 1>and they found the efficiency of the killing less entertaining

0:40:56.320 --> 0:40:58.879
<v Speaker 1>than the forms of execution they were used to, even

0:40:58.920 --> 0:41:02.920
<v Speaker 1>the more classic beheadings. Nevertheless, over time, the executions that

0:41:03.000 --> 0:41:06.560
<v Speaker 1>the guillotine became a very popular spectator event during the

0:41:06.560 --> 0:41:09.400
<v Speaker 1>reign of Terror, and you know, in generally afterwards when

0:41:09.440 --> 0:41:11.840
<v Speaker 1>the guillotine was used, people would show up to watch.

0:41:12.360 --> 0:41:14.600
<v Speaker 1>So we see a little success here. Like it was

0:41:14.680 --> 0:41:19.360
<v Speaker 1>clearly less dramatic, uh, you know, there was less theater

0:41:19.640 --> 0:41:21.759
<v Speaker 1>in the act. And yet at the same time, a

0:41:21.800 --> 0:41:24.680
<v Speaker 1>few things are more dramatic in life than the ending

0:41:24.719 --> 0:41:27.279
<v Speaker 1>of a life like this is the people. You can

0:41:27.360 --> 0:41:29.920
<v Speaker 1>understand why people would still turn out even if you

0:41:30.000 --> 0:41:34.520
<v Speaker 1>had made things a little more precise. Now, putting aside

0:41:34.520 --> 0:41:36.799
<v Speaker 1>the question, I guess we can talk talk about in

0:41:36.840 --> 0:41:39.120
<v Speaker 1>a minute, O or whether it's ever humane to just

0:41:39.440 --> 0:41:44.640
<v Speaker 1>execute somebody? Was it actually true that the the guillotine

0:41:44.719 --> 0:41:48.920
<v Speaker 1>was a more refined, more humane version of execution than

0:41:48.960 --> 0:41:51.879
<v Speaker 1>what came before? Was it? Was it an improvement if

0:41:51.880 --> 0:41:54.960
<v Speaker 1>you were somebody who was interested in reducing the suffering

0:41:54.960 --> 0:41:58.319
<v Speaker 1>of humankind. Yeah, I mean you could again, you could

0:41:58.320 --> 0:42:01.520
<v Speaker 1>say the concept is inherently controversial, but still others took

0:42:01.600 --> 0:42:04.760
<v Speaker 1>issue with just how humane it was. So Prussian doctor

0:42:04.920 --> 0:42:09.200
<v Speaker 1>Samuel Thomas summer Ing, who lives seventeen fifty five through

0:42:09.280 --> 0:42:12.279
<v Speaker 1>eighteen thirty, he studied the cadavers of guillotine victims, and

0:42:12.320 --> 0:42:15.560
<v Speaker 1>he argued that severed heads were still capable feeling and since,

0:42:16.040 --> 0:42:20.120
<v Speaker 1>and he wrote an essay on this in seventeen So

0:42:20.200 --> 0:42:22.440
<v Speaker 1>he he was something of a poly math. In addition

0:42:22.480 --> 0:42:26.160
<v Speaker 1>to naming the twelve pairs of cranial nerves, he also

0:42:26.239 --> 0:42:30.600
<v Speaker 1>invented a telegraphic system and made discoveries in paleontology, specifically

0:42:30.640 --> 0:42:34.319
<v Speaker 1>with the pterodactyl fossils. They're not dinosaurs, folks, that's a

0:42:34.320 --> 0:42:37.279
<v Speaker 1>different thing. So this was you know, this was not

0:42:37.360 --> 0:42:40.040
<v Speaker 1>just it wasn't just some crazy guy coming up in Santa,

0:42:40.200 --> 0:42:42.799
<v Speaker 1>the heads are still alive, you know, he was he

0:42:42.880 --> 0:42:47.080
<v Speaker 1>was making an expert argument that, like, I'm not sure

0:42:47.120 --> 0:42:49.080
<v Speaker 1>that this is great what we're doing. Maybe it's a

0:42:49.080 --> 0:42:51.799
<v Speaker 1>little it's almost a little too precise. Yeah, the core

0:42:51.880 --> 0:42:54.800
<v Speaker 1>takeaway of his essay on the humanity of the guillotine

0:42:54.800 --> 0:42:57.520
<v Speaker 1>was that we can't rule out that it's possible that

0:42:57.560 --> 0:43:01.600
<v Speaker 1>a severed head could still be having experience, could experience

0:43:01.719 --> 0:43:04.120
<v Speaker 1>being severed now we knew. And there were a lot

0:43:04.120 --> 0:43:07.440
<v Speaker 1>of tales of this happening right of people running to

0:43:07.520 --> 0:43:10.400
<v Speaker 1>check out the heads of the of the decapitated, in

0:43:10.520 --> 0:43:13.359
<v Speaker 1>various doctors checking in and seeing what was going on

0:43:13.440 --> 0:43:15.440
<v Speaker 1>with the eyes. And there was a lot of interest

0:43:15.480 --> 0:43:17.880
<v Speaker 1>in this in determining what, you know, what happens to

0:43:18.000 --> 0:43:22.239
<v Speaker 1>consciousness at death, Like this was a perfect clinical exercise

0:43:22.920 --> 0:43:25.600
<v Speaker 1>for for weighing in on it. Yeah. The classic tales

0:43:25.920 --> 0:43:28.120
<v Speaker 1>about this thin get repeated the most often are like

0:43:28.960 --> 0:43:33.120
<v Speaker 1>seeing someone's cheeks flush with anger when they behold someone

0:43:33.400 --> 0:43:35.759
<v Speaker 1>or who's someone who mocks them or something like that,

0:43:35.960 --> 0:43:39.200
<v Speaker 1>or or who slaps them in the face, or thinking

0:43:39.320 --> 0:43:42.920
<v Speaker 1>that that I severed head would be like looking at

0:43:42.920 --> 0:43:46.919
<v Speaker 1>people as if it recognized them, something like that. Yeah,

0:43:46.920 --> 0:43:49.000
<v Speaker 1>and obviously there's a lot of indeliphment with these stories,

0:43:49.040 --> 0:43:50.920
<v Speaker 1>but we don't know how much to trust them. Yeah,

0:43:50.960 --> 0:43:52.279
<v Speaker 1>we really don't know how much to trust them. But

0:43:52.320 --> 0:43:56.080
<v Speaker 1>we do know today that that any kind of activity

0:43:56.200 --> 0:43:59.080
<v Speaker 1>scene in the heads after death, most of this is

0:43:59.120 --> 0:44:04.080
<v Speaker 1>going to be reflective twitching of muscles. So, um, basically

0:44:04.880 --> 0:44:07.879
<v Speaker 1>coma and brain death are probably going to occur within

0:44:08.080 --> 0:44:12.120
<v Speaker 1>two to three seconds of decapitation due to interruption of

0:44:12.120 --> 0:44:15.040
<v Speaker 1>blood flow to the brain. So just the massive sudden

0:44:15.120 --> 0:44:18.080
<v Speaker 1>drop in blood pressure, Yeah, that's going to do it. Yeah.

0:44:18.680 --> 0:44:21.600
<v Speaker 1>So any tales of like, you know, confronting the head

0:44:22.040 --> 0:44:25.840
<v Speaker 1>having any kind of like moment of human uh contact,

0:44:25.840 --> 0:44:28.320
<v Speaker 1>even it it's just in the eyes. Uh, it's pretty

0:44:28.320 --> 0:44:32.080
<v Speaker 1>clear that that is all just embellishment of stories or

0:44:32.120 --> 0:44:35.000
<v Speaker 1>just wishful thinking on the part of the observer. So

0:44:35.080 --> 0:44:38.400
<v Speaker 1>what is the legacy of this machine, this this machine

0:44:38.440 --> 0:44:41.480
<v Speaker 1>of bureaucratic violence. And if we try to look at

0:44:41.480 --> 0:44:44.320
<v Speaker 1>it from with our perspective, from today, with our hindsight,

0:44:44.440 --> 0:44:46.600
<v Speaker 1>and you know, with with the kind of value judgments

0:44:46.640 --> 0:44:49.400
<v Speaker 1>we would make, was the guillotine a step forward or

0:44:49.440 --> 0:44:53.680
<v Speaker 1>a step backward? Was it as uh, Giatan envisioned a

0:44:53.760 --> 0:44:57.440
<v Speaker 1>more humane way of doing business when the state was

0:44:57.520 --> 0:45:00.640
<v Speaker 1>just you know, couldn't be convinced not to kill people.

0:45:01.080 --> 0:45:04.680
<v Speaker 1>Or did it perhaps enable a worse state of affairs

0:45:04.680 --> 0:45:07.000
<v Speaker 1>where more people could be sent to their deaths with

0:45:07.080 --> 0:45:10.400
<v Speaker 1>impunity than would have been the case otherwise. Yeah, I

0:45:10.400 --> 0:45:12.399
<v Speaker 1>think you could probably go either way on it. I mean,

0:45:12.640 --> 0:45:14.359
<v Speaker 1>one thing is for certain. It it changed the way

0:45:14.400 --> 0:45:17.320
<v Speaker 1>executions were performed in France for nearly two hundred years.

0:45:17.840 --> 0:45:21.000
<v Speaker 1>It was actually used in France up until nineteen seventy seven,

0:45:21.080 --> 0:45:24.520
<v Speaker 1>that's when the last execution occurred via guillotine, before the

0:45:24.560 --> 0:45:28.400
<v Speaker 1>outlying of capital punishment in one It also took on

0:45:28.480 --> 0:45:31.080
<v Speaker 1>symbolic way. It's just this this symbol of the reign

0:45:31.120 --> 0:45:33.960
<v Speaker 1>of terror and perhaps to a larger extent, a symbol

0:45:34.000 --> 0:45:38.120
<v Speaker 1>of systematically violent rebellion. Yeah. I read one author point out,

0:45:38.600 --> 0:45:41.200
<v Speaker 1>certainly not in defending the guillotine or the use of

0:45:41.239 --> 0:45:43.320
<v Speaker 1>the guillotine, but it just pointing out a kind of

0:45:43.440 --> 0:45:47.160
<v Speaker 1>strange irony that the guillotine now to us symbolizes this

0:45:47.680 --> 0:45:51.800
<v Speaker 1>this horror, this horror period of bureaucratic violence, which it

0:45:51.920 --> 0:45:54.319
<v Speaker 1>certainly was. But we look at that and we think

0:45:54.320 --> 0:45:56.919
<v Speaker 1>of that period as a reign of terror, but don't

0:45:57.000 --> 0:46:00.399
<v Speaker 1>think the same way. Say about the Napoleonic Wars killed

0:46:00.440 --> 0:46:03.440
<v Speaker 1>far more people than the guillotine ever, did not that

0:46:03.440 --> 0:46:05.800
<v Speaker 1>that makes the killings of the guillotine any less horrific.

0:46:05.920 --> 0:46:08.000
<v Speaker 1>That's true, now, you know one the one thing about

0:46:08.040 --> 0:46:11.319
<v Speaker 1>the weirdness of this whole situation that stands out. I mean,

0:46:11.600 --> 0:46:14.719
<v Speaker 1>aside from just the inherently weird nature of of a

0:46:14.760 --> 0:46:18.640
<v Speaker 1>beheading machine machine that cuts off heads, there is still

0:46:18.719 --> 0:46:21.880
<v Speaker 1>something highly symbolic going on here. I think to the

0:46:21.960 --> 0:46:25.080
<v Speaker 1>means of an execution, and you'll typically see an expression

0:46:25.520 --> 0:46:29.800
<v Speaker 1>of of power involved, say it's a physical strength or

0:46:30.080 --> 0:46:35.520
<v Speaker 1>you know, vengeful spirit, or increasingly a culture's greatest technological achievements.

0:46:35.880 --> 0:46:39.280
<v Speaker 1>Isn't it weird to think about how these methods climb

0:46:39.360 --> 0:46:43.360
<v Speaker 1>the tree of developing technology. So starting with varying levels

0:46:43.360 --> 0:46:48.280
<v Speaker 1>of tool proficiency, you know, axes and swords, weapons, weapon crafting,

0:46:48.520 --> 0:46:52.360
<v Speaker 1>then we go into gunpowder, uh, you know, firing squads,

0:46:52.400 --> 0:46:55.760
<v Speaker 1>electricity and the electric chair. It is weird to trace

0:46:55.840 --> 0:46:59.120
<v Speaker 1>through history execution methods just sort of like tracking with

0:46:59.239 --> 0:47:02.799
<v Speaker 1>whatever's the most interesting new technology we have available. Yeah,

0:47:02.880 --> 0:47:07.600
<v Speaker 1>chemicals pharmaceuticals. Mean, why an electric chair that is just

0:47:07.680 --> 0:47:11.359
<v Speaker 1>such a strange idea to even come up with. Ye.

0:47:12.360 --> 0:47:16.799
<v Speaker 1>French philosopher Michelle Fuco he weighed in on this, and

0:47:16.840 --> 0:47:20.279
<v Speaker 1>he pointed out that penal technology is of course an

0:47:20.280 --> 0:47:22.480
<v Speaker 1>expression of power, but we also have to dwell in

0:47:22.520 --> 0:47:27.760
<v Speaker 1>the fact that it does this through everyday technology, ubiquitous technology.

0:47:28.000 --> 0:47:30.799
<v Speaker 1>So if it's something like electricity or even you know

0:47:30.920 --> 0:47:34.680
<v Speaker 1>or even you know, pharmaceuticals, chemicals, Uh, it's it's taking

0:47:35.800 --> 0:47:40.640
<v Speaker 1>aspects of everyday life and turning them into the the system,

0:47:40.719 --> 0:47:44.480
<v Speaker 1>the tool of of justice. So like our everyday use

0:47:44.480 --> 0:47:48.319
<v Speaker 1>of energy and the consumer economy, a constant reminder of

0:47:48.400 --> 0:47:51.080
<v Speaker 1>the methods of death that the state can inflict upon

0:47:51.200 --> 0:47:55.080
<v Speaker 1>people if they if they don't stay in line exactly. Now,

0:47:55.320 --> 0:47:58.120
<v Speaker 1>one small area of the legacy of the guillotine comes

0:47:58.160 --> 0:48:01.120
<v Speaker 1>down to its use in medical terminal alogy. So there

0:48:01.120 --> 0:48:04.360
<v Speaker 1>are two primary means of amputation. Um in terms of

0:48:04.400 --> 0:48:06.880
<v Speaker 1>like amputating a limb or what have you, you have

0:48:06.960 --> 0:48:10.120
<v Speaker 1>flap amputations in which flaps of flesh are left so

0:48:10.200 --> 0:48:13.719
<v Speaker 1>that you can fold them and close the stump of

0:48:13.800 --> 0:48:16.799
<v Speaker 1>the wound. And then there are guillotine amputations which which

0:48:16.840 --> 0:48:19.000
<v Speaker 1>are more of a straight down affair with no immediate

0:48:19.040 --> 0:48:24.080
<v Speaker 1>concerns for flap tissue. So in guillotine amputation, it's more

0:48:24.080 --> 0:48:26.960
<v Speaker 1>about cutting out infected tissue and making sure drainage of

0:48:27.080 --> 0:48:31.200
<v Speaker 1>proper drainage occurs, and then secondary surgery is performed to

0:48:31.280 --> 0:48:34.320
<v Speaker 1>create the flap tissue to close everything off into a stump.

0:48:34.440 --> 0:48:37.640
<v Speaker 1>But obviously that's like a secondary appellation, like you wouldn't

0:48:37.840 --> 0:48:41.200
<v Speaker 1>you wouldn't have called that guillotine cutting in the surgical

0:48:41.280 --> 0:48:43.680
<v Speaker 1>since before the guillotine, right, But it is certainly an

0:48:43.680 --> 0:48:47.759
<v Speaker 1>example where if you're you, you encounter this terminology now

0:48:47.920 --> 0:48:51.879
<v Speaker 1>in in medical science and uh, and it stems from

0:48:51.920 --> 0:48:54.560
<v Speaker 1>the use of this execution device. That being said, there's

0:48:54.560 --> 0:48:58.280
<v Speaker 1>a lot of medical terminology that stems from various weapons

0:48:58.360 --> 0:49:01.359
<v Speaker 1>and so forth. Of course, so I want to come

0:49:01.400 --> 0:49:04.120
<v Speaker 1>back to this question that we've been teasing throughout where

0:49:04.480 --> 0:49:08.799
<v Speaker 1>you can't help, but wonder if Joseph Eskaton pushed us

0:49:08.840 --> 0:49:13.200
<v Speaker 1>in exactly the wrong direction, if he was actually against

0:49:13.239 --> 0:49:16.920
<v Speaker 1>the death penalty and trying to institute more humane treatment

0:49:16.920 --> 0:49:21.200
<v Speaker 1>of criminals. You know, it's hard not to notice that

0:49:21.280 --> 0:49:25.440
<v Speaker 1>by sanitizing a horrible act, it often seems like you

0:49:25.600 --> 0:49:29.200
<v Speaker 1>make the act easier to carry out. And I mean,

0:49:29.239 --> 0:49:31.880
<v Speaker 1>just think about how this applies to modern methods of

0:49:31.920 --> 0:49:35.800
<v Speaker 1>state sanctioned killing, everything from lethal injection to drone strikes.

0:49:36.200 --> 0:49:42.759
<v Speaker 1>Does the sanitizing and distancing and depersonalization opportunity provided by

0:49:42.880 --> 0:49:47.879
<v Speaker 1>lethal technology encourage us to make ourselves able to kill

0:49:48.120 --> 0:49:52.480
<v Speaker 1>more while feeling less about it? Yeah? I mean, ultimately,

0:49:52.800 --> 0:49:56.800
<v Speaker 1>is the the botched at execution that we've discussed already,

0:49:56.960 --> 0:50:00.359
<v Speaker 1>Are those not maybe a more honest depiction of what's

0:50:00.400 --> 0:50:05.640
<v Speaker 1>going on? This this this fallible um barbaric human effort,

0:50:05.840 --> 0:50:10.040
<v Speaker 1>not this uh precision of the holy blameless machine. Well,

0:50:10.080 --> 0:50:12.160
<v Speaker 1>I mean, obviously we're not going to sit here and

0:50:12.200 --> 0:50:16.160
<v Speaker 1>advocate brutal, botched executions with jack ketch hacking at us

0:50:16.160 --> 0:50:19.480
<v Speaker 1>with a sword or an axe. But yeah, at least

0:50:19.480 --> 0:50:22.400
<v Speaker 1>with that, I'm not saying that's preferable, But I do

0:50:22.440 --> 0:50:24.799
<v Speaker 1>see what you're saying that it's at least there, you're

0:50:24.840 --> 0:50:28.319
<v Speaker 1>acknowledging that something brutal and weird is going on, and

0:50:28.360 --> 0:50:30.600
<v Speaker 1>you can't just you know, clean it up in your

0:50:30.600 --> 0:50:33.640
<v Speaker 1>mind and ignore it because you're hearing the screams and

0:50:33.680 --> 0:50:36.799
<v Speaker 1>it's splattering on you, and it's so brutal that it's

0:50:36.800 --> 0:50:39.719
<v Speaker 1>almost funny. You know, it's interesting. You know, in this

0:50:39.760 --> 0:50:43.080
<v Speaker 1>show we talk about innovation and inventions and how how

0:50:43.120 --> 0:50:46.720
<v Speaker 1>they change the world, and and so often you see

0:50:46.719 --> 0:50:49.120
<v Speaker 1>that that people have to look back and try to

0:50:49.200 --> 0:50:52.719
<v Speaker 1>figure out what changed and how it changed us. Uh,

0:50:52.800 --> 0:50:56.040
<v Speaker 1>And here we are, hundreds of years later, looking back

0:50:56.080 --> 0:50:59.000
<v Speaker 1>and saying, well, what did the guillotine mean? What did

0:50:59.040 --> 0:51:04.799
<v Speaker 1>it do? And what are the ultimate ramifications of this advancement. Well,

0:51:04.840 --> 0:51:08.160
<v Speaker 1>I posit that maybe one takeaway from it is that

0:51:08.560 --> 0:51:11.160
<v Speaker 1>the truth is it has showed us that there is

0:51:11.200 --> 0:51:15.120
<v Speaker 1>no good or clean or sanitary way to kill a person,

0:51:15.760 --> 0:51:18.560
<v Speaker 1>and any belief that there is, in fact turns out

0:51:18.600 --> 0:51:23.359
<v Speaker 1>to be a kind of brutalizing and dehumanizing illusion. Alright, Well,

0:51:23.360 --> 0:51:26.359
<v Speaker 1>on that note, we're gonna close out the episode here.

0:51:26.840 --> 0:51:30.160
<v Speaker 1>But hey, we want to remind everybody that we are

0:51:30.200 --> 0:51:33.600
<v Speaker 1>open to your suggestions and your ideas and your feedback

0:51:33.600 --> 0:51:36.480
<v Speaker 1>and thoughts on the inventions and innovations that we discuss

0:51:36.560 --> 0:51:39.719
<v Speaker 1>on this podcast. Since our real website probably won't be

0:51:39.800 --> 0:51:41.520
<v Speaker 1>up yet, you should check out stuff to Blow your

0:51:41.520 --> 0:51:45.520
<v Speaker 1>Mind dot com, where you can see our other podcasts

0:51:45.520 --> 0:51:47.760
<v Speaker 1>that has all kinds of great content. If you're interested

0:51:47.760 --> 0:51:50.279
<v Speaker 1>in in depth discussions like this, but more focused on

0:51:50.960 --> 0:51:56.720
<v Speaker 1>intersections of science and philosophy, religion, mythology, history, uh and

0:51:56.719 --> 0:52:00.600
<v Speaker 1>and less specifically focused on technological innovation, check out Stuff

0:52:00.600 --> 0:52:03.680
<v Speaker 1>to blow your mind. That's our great mother crab from beyond.

0:52:03.880 --> 0:52:05.400
<v Speaker 1>And if you want to get in touch with this directly,

0:52:05.440 --> 0:52:08.200
<v Speaker 1>just email us at our email address, which might not

0:52:08.280 --> 0:52:13.440
<v Speaker 1>be active at the time we launch. Who Knows Invention

0:52:13.520 --> 0:52:16.160
<v Speaker 1>is production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts for

0:52:16.239 --> 0:52:18.960
<v Speaker 1>my heart Radio because the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

0:52:19.040 --> 0:52:20.680
<v Speaker 1>or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.