WEBVTT - Eliza Shapiro on School Closures, the Big Picture -- and Probably Getting Coronavirus 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:06.360 I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing. 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:12.160 My guest today is Eliza Shapiro, education reporter for The 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:16.520 New York Times, also born and raised in New York City. 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.639 Off the record, what damper are you in? OH? I 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:22.400 don't mind saying. I live in Brooklyn Heights. I grew 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:25.799 up in A hundred six between West Denni Riverside. Why 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:28.680 my first department I see him with my uncle Charles's 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:32.720 apartment of three Riverside Drive a hundred and my ex 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:37.760 boyfriend lives in that apartment. Don't let the charm fool you. 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:41.920 In this year's one hundred Most Powerful People in Education, 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:46.319 Shapiro ranks up with senators and ceo s, and her 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:50.000 listing there reads no one on the education beat is 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:53.720 a sharper or more effective thorn in the side of 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:59.520 city officials. Plenty of us take our school systems for granted, 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:02.920 but we owe it to ourselves to know what's going on. 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:07.600 Like many New Yorkers, I get overwhelmed trying to understand 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:12.520 the network of exams, state and local laws, charter schools, 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:16.560 racial politics, and labor issues that make up the New 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:20.760 York City school system. A conversation with Eliza Shapiro is 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:25.000 a great way to start untangling it all. Under Bloomberg, 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:27.919 there was a lot of change what had he wrought. 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:31.520 Bloomberg completely transformed the education system in New York and 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:35.279 many people feel for the better. Yes, so much change 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:39.160 happened that the record is mixed, but there were some 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:42.760 really controversial changes that were met with a lot of 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:46.119 resistance that research has borne out were quite successful, even 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:50.240 if quite painful. So, for example, no one likes to 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:54.400 have their neighborhood school closed for low performance. It's incredibly 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:58.880 emotionally painful for people who have memories of the school. However, 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:03.200 one of the only ways that research has borne out 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:07.080 to improve schools that have resisted improvement and changed for decades. 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:14.160 Sometimes closure really is the difference maker, and Bloomberg cast 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:17.360 away the politics of it, which are really nasty and 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:20.920 not easy and said, tough nuggies, we're going to do this. 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:24.920 And in some not all cases, but in some cases, 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:29.440 it really helps schools get better in places where kids 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:31.440 have not had a good option for a long time. 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:34.079 When you get to the point where it's that bad 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:37.840 that you're actually going to close a school, you disseminate 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:41.760 them among adjacent school districts. I'm assuming or you entirely 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:44.640 recreate that school. It's maybe it's in the same building, 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:46.760 but there's a new principle, there's a new theme, there's 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:49.079 new teachers and new everything closesn't mean you shut of 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:51.440 the building clothes, means everybody gets fired and you start 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:54.520 over again, potentially pretty much. To me, that's one thing 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:56.760 I'm always I mean, I'm very pro union. I'm in 0:02:56.800 --> 0:03:00.360 a union, but the the proprietary nat ture of the 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:03.240 teacher's union, it reminds me of the police where they 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:06.799 kind of build a moat around their fiefdom here and 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:09.520 they want to be completely self regulating, which is ridiculous 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:11.360 to me. I mean, you are an employee of the 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:14.760 City of New York. You work for the taxpayers. Yes, 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:17.800 And one of the biggest changes between the Bloomberg approach 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:20.320 to education and to Blasi's approach to education is to 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:24.760 Blasio has a very very accommodating relationship to the teacher's union, 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:28.400 which is incredibly politically powerful here. Every year more and 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:32.200 more so, even I would say, I would say the 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:37.600 election of Donald Trump has created a much more passionate membership, 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:41.360 and many teachers feel that public education is under attack. 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:43.920 Teachers all over the country feel that way, and that's 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:46.040 why they gone on strike. If you're a teacher in 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:47.760 New York, you happen to be a part of one 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:50.840 of the most powerful unions in the country, and so 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:53.640 you have a lot of leverage and power. What it 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:56.760 hasn't meant on the ground is that, yeah, it's a 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:59.600 lot harder to close the school. It's a lot harder 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:03.440 to come up with education policy that could be disruptive 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:06.440 without the union signing off. And Bloomberg just at a 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:08.680 certain point, for better or worse, gave up on that. 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.560 And that's not part of the de Blasio calculus. Blasio 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:15.600 began to dismantle much of what Bloomberg had done. Is 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:18.039 that correct? Yes, I don't think you could find two 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:22.960 people who disagree more on foundational aspects of what public 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:26.760 education should be. I mean, de Blasio said, we're not 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:31.000 going to close schools anymore. We're not gonna embrace charter schools. 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:34.360 We're not going to be as focused on tests or 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:37.320 on sort of what data tells us about how schools 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:42.599 are doing. We're not going to create smaller schools from large, 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:48.640 underperforming high schools. But the problem is, over the course 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:51.080 of the de Blasia administration, more and more research has 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:55.520 come out that backs up some of the controversial, really 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:58.839 really hard fought Bloomberg policies. We know that some of 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:02.240 that stuff was working. What's one that de Blasio has 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:05.200 tripped away that people have said was a mistake. Yeah, 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:09.600 so I think there's one really important example. So, you know, 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:12.520 there is nothing harder in public education than figuring out 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:16.000 how to take a catastrophically under performing school and somehow 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:19.000 make it okay for kids to go to. There's no 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:23.640 silver bullet. This is the hardest work in public education. Bloomberg, 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:26.480 you know, broke up schools, made them into smaller schools, 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:29.200 close them, tried to get teachers out, tried to get 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:32.640 principles out. But this made people in the communities really angry. 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:34.680 And to Blasio came in and said, don't worry, guys, 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:36.920 We're not going to do all that stuff that made 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:38.680 you upset. We're not them. We're not going to do 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:41.520 all that stuff that made you upset anymore. We're going 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:45.680 to take an entirely non controversial approach to school improvement. 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:49.320 It's a program called Renewal and ended up costing the 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:54.200 city almost eight hundred million dollars and it just uh 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:57.680 largely did not work. So do Blasio said, We're going 0:05:57.720 --> 0:06:00.960 to flood under performing schools with resources and money and 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:06.359 coaches and after school and that's all great, there's nothing 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:10.280 to say that more money. In most it did not. 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:12.920 And at a certain point you have to say, we're 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:18.000 spending eight hundred million dollars and we're sending thousands of 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:21.640 vulnerable kids into schools after year that the city knew 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:26.960 vulnerable and described vulnerable so low income kids, homeless kids, 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:31.320 black and Hispanic kids, kids who in other words, deserve 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:35.560 a lot better from their government. And you know, it 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:38.200 was clear, i would say, from the first year of 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:41.960 this Renewal program in that it just wasn't coming together. 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:45.440 Principles were confused at what to do. A lot of 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:48.000 schools were not improving. Some did, some that were on 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:51.560 the bubble of actually being functional did, but a lot 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:54.240 of them didn't. And that meant that, you know, you 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:56.919 could have gone your whole way through high school in 0:06:57.080 --> 0:07:01.480 an underperforming school that the city knew wasn't actually going 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:05.839 to be acceptable, and that has been a big black 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:09.920 mark on this administration's education policy, and it's really reverberated 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:13.800 across the country. People are saying breaking up schools is tough, 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:18.320 but a renewal like model that could even work. Um 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:21.320 does the New York City school system spend the same 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:25.600 amount of money per student system wide, so there is 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:29.400 a baseline per pupil. New York City spends a fair 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:34.080 amount of money on on a paltry amount of money. No, 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:37.600 it's not the problem. That's not the problem. I mean, 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:40.720 I think everyone who works in the school would say 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:45.280 we need more. And there's every year in Albany, enduring 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:48.840 sort of the state legislative session, there are advocacy to 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:51.280 say we need more, we need more. Governor Cuomo has 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:54.880 added more money. I think what's really hard is that 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:58.000 in New York City we have a massive bureaucracy that 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:01.160 oversees by far, the largest school system in the country. 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:05.880 It's one point one million kids, and the bureaucracy has 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:12.320 basically never really functioned properly like ever in the last century. 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:16.000 And every few years there's a massive reorganization and we 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:18.280 think we're going to streamline it and get it right 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:21.560 this time. But it's really hard to build a system 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:25.720 around the huge variety of types of schools, types of kids, 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:29.880 vast needs in the system, and it's sort of this 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:34.000 constant bureaucratic project. And you know, Bloomberg recognized that, I 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:37.040 think pretty early, and he got rid of this system 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:39.959 where there were thirty two separate districts within the school 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:43.240 district that we're all making their own decisions. He standardized. Again, 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:46.440 that was like a very hard fought win. It's sort 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:48.760 of like six to one, half a dozen the other 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:52.160 I mean, it's almost impossible for this bureaucracy to effectively 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.000 run a system of schools. On the other hand, when 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:57.920 there were thirty two elected school boards, there was all 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:00.760 this corruption and patronage because know, you sort of do 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:03.720 neighborhood by neighborhood politics in New York and that gets messy. 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:07.360 So your cousin becomes the accountant for the local school board. 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:13.960 I mean, it's all vastly exactly, and that's New York 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:17.040 and that's bureaucracy. But you know, I think there's no 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:20.640 denying that more money would be helpful, But in a 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:27.640 lot of cases it's leadership, teacher quality, organization, figuring out 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:30.880 also how the money is spent right for renewal. It's like, well, 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:34.079 you know, maybe school A needs a new guidance counselor, 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:37.360 but School B just needs like a math coach because 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:41.800 this math teacher is not getting it. And sometimes more 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:44.199 money can lead to sort of a one size fits all, 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:46.920 So there needs to be more money with better planning, 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:50.240 and those two can be really tough to get together. 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:54.720 My dad was not in the teachers in my town. 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:57.160 In fact, when he crossed the picket line, some of 0:09:57.200 --> 0:10:00.040 his own friends and colleague through things at him, and 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:02.760 they threw objects that you like, batteries you put into 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:05.439 a toy. And I don't mean to sound too libertarian here, 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:09.200 but it's like, why doesn't the union want there to 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:13.760 be some oversight by the taxpayers, by their duly elected 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:16.959 officials of their rank and file. Why, I mean, do 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:21.720 they have a point that there's some politicized filter that's 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:24.760 in place when when teachers and people are not promoted 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.920 or they're fired or whatever. Has that been proven? It's 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:30.800 a great question. I think, as with all things in 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:35.640 this system, there are two genuine sides to the issue. 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:38.720 So I think it is true that in the past 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:42.720 and I'm sure today there have been documented incidents where 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:45.880 principle throughout a teacher because they didn't like them. Has 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:49.360 my reporting shown that that is like a rampant crisis. No, 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:53.679 And I think that, you know, the New York City 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:58.600 Teachers Union. Only in the last decade or fifteen years 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:02.600 have groups really gun to question their power and say, 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:05.520 why is it that we have this group that you know, 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:07.280 city Hall has to do a handshake with them on 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:11.880 every education policy. Uh. You know, the teachers union has 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:16.000 a job which is to protect the teachers. The people 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:20.120 who lead the teachers union genuinely care about children and 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:21.880 want the school system to get better. I don't think 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:26.400 there's any question about that. But there are different priorities 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:28.640 when you run a school system as a chancellor, as 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:32.040 a mayor, and when you run a teacher's union. There 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:35.000 are some very valid questions that have been raised about 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:38.640 can we get rid of a teacher who's really demonstrated 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:41.600 themselves to be not qualified sooner. That's different from a 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:44.600 teacher who you know, maybe had a tough first year teaching. 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.800 This job is enormously difficult and really wants to get 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:50.720 better and need some coaching from a teacher who you 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:54.960 know has it, just doesn't have it, can't control classroom 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:57.480 or or or isn't showing up every day. You know, 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:00.600 these are these are different types of cases. It's like 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:02.840 the police would you would you would have No one 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:04.760 would want to get rid of bad cops more than 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:07.880 the good coups. Totally. But I would just say in 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:12.439 an ironic way, the teachers unions got a boost even 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:15.640 though Trump and the Admistration have gone after them. There 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:20.160 is this profound sense of unity, rallying cry, which is 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:22.640 what a union needs to be powerful and strong. That 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:27.600 Trump has helped in gender and politically, it's actually a 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:31.520 pretty good moment for the teachers. Who wants to be 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:35.640 a teacher today, I would imagine somebody who is a 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:39.360 glad for punishment. I mean, listen, this job is so 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:41.520 so hard. I spent a lot of time in classrooms 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:43.640 and probably in a school one full day a week, 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:47.120 and I mean just the behavioral stuff, just like getting 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:49.920 used to learning how to control a classroom. You can't 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:52.240 just like sort of be a badass and walk in 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:55.800 and you do it in a chair any chance, certainly not. Um. 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:58.120 You know, I think there's a lot of new younger 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:01.200 teachers I'm meeting who really have like a like a 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:04.200 social justice point of view, who want to teach in 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:07.640 underperforming schools or schools a lot of homeless kids and 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:10.520 really feel like this is the best way, which I 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:12.679 certainly don't disagree with. This is a really good way 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:14.880 to make a difference in your community if you're concerned 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:17.000 about the state of the world. So there's a lot 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:19.080 of young teachers who say, like, I'm going to give 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:21.920 it my all in this school in Brownsville where thirty 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:26.120 percent of the kids are homeless. Um, there's a new 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:29.720 trend of having more cultural responsive education in school. So 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:33.200 that's you know, more books by authors of color, or 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.200 when we learn math, can we look at how you know, 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:38.719 the ancient Egyptians approached it. And I think there's a 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:41.360 lot of people who are coming out of school who 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:44.520 have learned this and it's not mumbo jumbo. I mean 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:47.360 it's real. Who want to bring it into schools and 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:51.400 modernize the schools because you know, if you walk into 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:53.680 like sort of a typical New York school, it's still 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:57.040 like a relatively can feel like, um, it can feel 0:13:57.040 --> 0:13:59.839 a little bit trapped in time. What change would you 0:13:59.880 --> 0:14:03.840 like to see. I mean, my pet obsession right now 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:07.920 is homelessness, and I sort of don't understand why the 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:11.400 d o E continues to plot along sort of having 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:16.079 a broad, unofficial office that looks at student homelessness. How 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:19.280 can it possibly be that there's a hundred four thousand 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:24.120 homeless kids and it's not really clear who's responsible for 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:26.720 them at the central office level. If there's going to 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:29.680 be a central bureaucracy, how can it be that one 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:32.000 of the most powerful offices in that bureaucracy is not 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:34.600 the one that deals with the single most vulnerable population 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.120 in the city. So, you know, I and I talked 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:39.040 to officials about this, and I just say, like, how 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:42.040 have you guys not gotten it together organizationally on this. 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:45.240 You have a large bureaucracy with a lot of money. 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:48.800 What else can you do? Um? But I mean to 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:52.800 your point about schools and poverty, I mean, I think 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:56.800 in the sort of charter school movement and education reform 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:59.280 movement of the last two decades, there has been this 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:03.240 hope and somewhat call it a fantasy, that schools can 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:10.040 trump poverty, and it's just not really true. Schools are 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:14.800 being asked to perform tasks that are impossible. What I 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:17.600 find very often when I go into high poverty schools 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:21.120 or school a lot of schools with lots of homeless students, 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:22.720 or schools with a lot of kids who are just 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:28.480 struggling academically, is that the principles are highly organized. Actually, 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.760 some of these principles were appointed under Bloomberg's reign because 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:36.040 he was very very focused on high quality principles, which 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:40.040 I think has worn out successfully. Who runs a school 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:42.720 really really matters. But you go into these schools and 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:45.000 you spend hour in the principal's office and you just 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:49.320 watch a highly affected person who's spending every forty seconds 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:52.880 putting out a different fire. And then people ask, well, like, 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:55.880 why aren't the test scores of this school higher? But 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:57.920 if you have a parent coming and saying I just 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:01.560 lost my housing, or we still haven't gotten a shelter 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:06.400 placement or um, you know, we don't have enough food, 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:11.360 it's really hard for these schools then to both essentially 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:15.040 act as social workers and case managers and you know, 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:19.760 be instructional leaders. We're asking a lot of educators in 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:24.000 schools that are segregated by race, poverty, housing status, and 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:27.120 the best principle in New York City can't do all 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:33.560 of it. New York Times Education reporter Eliza Shapiro. One 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:36.720 of my other favorite conversations with a journalist on Here's 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:40.280 the Thing was with the New York Times Stephen Lee Myers. 0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:44.880 He wrote the excellent English language biography of Vladimir putin 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:49.640 the News are and is now the Times Beijing bureau chief. 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:52.720 There's no question that the biggest challenge to the United 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:55.840 States now is China. It's the economic challenge, it's the 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:58.760 military challenge, it's the trade challenge. I mean, it's it's 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:01.600 the issues that you're seeing this administration deal with, and 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:04.320 and Obama administration was dealing with it as well, and 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:06.800 whoever comes next going to be dealing with because China 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:10.200 is a country that really firmly believes in its destiny 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:13.160 and um and it's a system that is even more 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:17.760 authoritarian than Russia is, and more efficiently authoritarian than Russia is, 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:23.280 and that makes them more powerful. To hear my interview 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:29.000 with Stephen Lee Meyer's text Myers, that's m Y E. R. S. 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:47.240 Two seven zero one zero one. I'm Alec Baldwin, and 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:51.560 you're listening to Here's the thing the Eliza Shapiro told 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:55.280 me that one of the most controversial proposals floated under 0:17:55.320 --> 0:18:00.280 the Deblasio administration is the outright elimination of gift didn't 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:06.480 talented programs in the New York City public schools. So Blasio, 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:10.040 facing pressure, as he so often does from his left 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:13.199 flank on social issues, He's been facing all this pressure 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:16.320 from advocacy, you have to do more to integrate the system. 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:18.920 So kind of as a way to get people off 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:21.840 his back, he said, Okay, I'm gonna you know, classic government. 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:23.920 I'm going to create a task force. They're going to 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.120 study integration, will get back to you in three years. 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:28.879 So the task force gets back to us and says, 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:31.479 you know, get rid of almost all gift and talented 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:37.240 PROGRESSI City. They said, because this Gift and Talented test, 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:40.560 which is given to kids when they're four, they don't 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:44.280 believe that that's a fair measure of gifts and talents, 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:48.879 And because they believe that putting kids who are academically 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:54.560 accelerated in different classrooms is inherently exclusionary and leads to segregation. 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:58.399 So they went. In fact, this group went much farther 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:01.679 than the mayor and immediately the mayor, even though he 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:05.040 commissioned and appointed this task force, said oh my god, 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:07.359 I barely know them. I'll get back to in a year. 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:10.000 I mean, I genuinely do not believe that to Blasio 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:12.680 believes that the city should get rid of gift and talented. 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:17.080 But there is a new coalition of advocates experts, I mean, 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:20.199 people who studied the issue, who say the idea of 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:24.439 gift and talented is inherently exclusionary, and we can have 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:27.479 more magnet schools, we can have more enrichment for all kids. 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.480 But this is this is the third rail of education 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:33.000 politics in New York City, and I don't know how 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:35.879 far they're going to get. Where have you seen? I know, 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:38.119 I was we we in our research. We so that 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:41.320 you mentioned Lawrence, Massachusetts and Campden, New Jersey's places where 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:43.720 there was some real progress. Describe that for me. Well, So, 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:48.720 Campton is a fascinating example because it is um one 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:54.479 of the absolute poorest, most desperate, most dangerous cities in 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:58.240 this country. It's sort of infamously a really really really 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:04.040 tough place to live, violent, violent, and just incredibly poor 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:07.840 and sort of sequestered and isolated, and kids have you know, 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:11.399 I have to deal with gun violence. You know, it 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.440 can be really dangerous to walk to school. The schools 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:16.800 have long been under performing. The school board there has 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:20.360 long been played by corruption. So you know, I spent 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:23.800 some time there recently to sort of say, like, how 0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:25.919 can the schools get better here? It's a little bit 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:27.680 of like, if you can do it here, you can 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:29.639 probably at least apply a lot of this stuff to 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:32.840 other places, because Camden is really one of the roughest 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:36.320 places in this country. And what I learned when I 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:40.040 spent some time there is that and this is sort 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:42.000 of my answer to this question. I get of like, well, 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:45.159 what works, right? So what I found there is what 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:48.280 works is when you have people who run a school 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:52.880 system who are not ideological, who say like, okay, so 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:55.800 we have all these different reforms in different ways of 0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:59.480 improving public education. But the unions believe A and B, 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:03.040 and the charter people believe X and Y and never 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:07.960 like to shall meet. Right. So actually there's good ideas 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:11.880 on all sides of this issue, even though education policies 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:14.159 and is so contentious. So let me give you an 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:19.359 example in Camden Um there are some really high performing 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:22.680 charter schools but they operate differently than almost any charter 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:28.400 in the country. That is because they are zoned charter schools. 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:34.560 So UM typically a charter schools what is ourship to 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:37.320 get an expert's opinion, what is a charter school? So 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:40.159 a charter school is a is a public school that 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:43.840 is privately managed and typically they are you get in 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:47.639 through a lottery system that's open to um anybody in 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:49.639 the city. So there's a lot of charter schools, for 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:52.919 example in Harlem, but technically anybody can apply and if 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:56.040 you are lucky enough you know, to essentially win a 0:21:56.080 --> 0:21:59.439 golden ticket and get into a good charter school in Harlem, 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:02.160 you can go and who runs them? Who runs them? 0:22:02.160 --> 0:22:04.359 So sometimes it's sort of what we call like mom 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:07.080 and pop charters. Like one founder decided I want to 0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:10.320 start a charter for example, that helps kids with autism, 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:15.640 which is a charter here. Yes, I mean they basically 0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:18.280 go through a process to get a charter and then 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:21.440 they get typically they get public space in New York City, 0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:23.600 although some are in private space that they pay for. 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:27.679 Typically there they have this lottery system. So what it 0:22:27.840 --> 0:22:31.040 sometimes means is that parents who know about the lottery 0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:35.640 will sign up for the lottery, but many parents don't 0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:39.119 know or there's vulnerability where like you might not be 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:41.080 able to just get it together to fill out the 0:22:41.080 --> 0:22:43.600 application and understand how it works, and sometimes you have 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:45.399 to line up. I mean, there's all these sort of 0:22:45.440 --> 0:22:49.800 different ways that have benefited lots of poor kids, but 0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:53.400 sometimes not the absolute needius kids. So, for example, in Camden, 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:57.040 instead of having a lottery system, you'll have a charter 0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:01.480 that is open to kids um own in a neighborhood, 0:23:02.200 --> 0:23:05.639 so it sort of operates like a typical zone public school, 0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:07.879 yet it's a charter. And so what that means is 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:12.560 that kids with severe special needs, kids who live in 0:23:12.600 --> 0:23:16.760 incredibly tough homes, kids who are homeless, go into the 0:23:16.960 --> 0:23:22.080 high performing, excellent, well organized charter and they can't sort 0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:25.560 of be counseled out or kicked out or told maybe 0:23:25.600 --> 0:23:27.679 this charter isn't for you, go to the public school, 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:31.440 because the charter actually serves that purpose. So it's incredibly 0:23:32.200 --> 0:23:35.680 interesting hybrid model between a traditional public school and sort 0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:39.520 of a newer, innovative charter. And that's helped a lot 0:23:39.560 --> 0:23:42.720 of kids in Camden, and it could probably help a 0:23:42.720 --> 0:23:46.080