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Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is Eliza Shapiro, education reporter for The

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Speaker 1: New York Times, also born and raised in New York City.

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Speaker 1: Off the record, what damper are you in? OH? I

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Speaker 1: don't mind saying. I live in Brooklyn Heights. I grew

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Speaker 1: up in A hundred six between West Denni Riverside. Why

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Speaker 1: my first department I see him with my uncle Charles's

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Speaker 1: apartment of three Riverside Drive a hundred and my ex

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Speaker 1: boyfriend lives in that apartment. Don't let the charm fool you.

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Speaker 1: In this year's one hundred Most Powerful People in Education,

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Speaker 1: Shapiro ranks up with senators and ceo s, and her

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Speaker 1: listing there reads no one on the education beat is

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Speaker 1: a sharper or more effective thorn in the side of

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Speaker 1: city officials. Plenty of us take our school systems for granted,

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Speaker 1: but we owe it to ourselves to know what's going on.

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Speaker 1: Like many New Yorkers, I get overwhelmed trying to understand

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Speaker 1: the network of exams, state and local laws, charter schools,

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Speaker 1: racial politics, and labor issues that make up the New

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Speaker 1: York City school system. A conversation with Eliza Shapiro is

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Speaker 1: a great way to start untangling it all. Under Bloomberg,

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of change what had he wrought.

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg completely transformed the education system in New York and

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Speaker 1: many people feel for the better. Yes, so much change

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Speaker 1: happened that the record is mixed, but there were some

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Speaker 1: really controversial changes that were met with a lot of

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Speaker 1: resistance that research has borne out were quite successful, even

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Speaker 1: if quite painful. So, for example, no one likes to

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Speaker 1: have their neighborhood school closed for low performance. It's incredibly

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Speaker 1: emotionally painful for people who have memories of the school. However,

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Speaker 1: one of the only ways that research has borne out

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Speaker 1: to improve schools that have resisted improvement and changed for decades.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes closure really is the difference maker, and Bloomberg cast

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Speaker 1: away the politics of it, which are really nasty and

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Speaker 1: not easy and said, tough nuggies, we're going to do this.

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Speaker 1: And in some not all cases, but in some cases,

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Speaker 1: it really helps schools get better in places where kids

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Speaker 1: have not had a good option for a long time.

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Speaker 1: When you get to the point where it's that bad

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Speaker 1: that you're actually going to close a school, you disseminate

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Speaker 1: them among adjacent school districts. I'm assuming or you entirely

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Speaker 1: recreate that school. It's maybe it's in the same building,

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Speaker 1: but there's a new principle, there's a new theme, there's

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Speaker 1: new teachers and new everything closesn't mean you shut of

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Speaker 1: the building clothes, means everybody gets fired and you start

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Speaker 1: over again, potentially pretty much. To me, that's one thing

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Speaker 1: I'm always I mean, I'm very pro union. I'm in

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Speaker 1: a union, but the the proprietary nat ture of the

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Speaker 1: teacher's union, it reminds me of the police where they

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Speaker 1: kind of build a moat around their fiefdom here and

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Speaker 1: they want to be completely self regulating, which is ridiculous

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Speaker 1: to me. I mean, you are an employee of the

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Speaker 1: City of New York. You work for the taxpayers. Yes,

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Speaker 1: And one of the biggest changes between the Bloomberg approach

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Speaker 1: to education and to Blasi's approach to education is to

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Speaker 1: Blasio has a very very accommodating relationship to the teacher's union,

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Speaker 1: which is incredibly politically powerful here. Every year more and

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Speaker 1: more so, even I would say, I would say the

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Speaker 1: election of Donald Trump has created a much more passionate membership,

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Speaker 1: and many teachers feel that public education is under attack.

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Speaker 1: Teachers all over the country feel that way, and that's

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Speaker 1: why they gone on strike. If you're a teacher in

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Speaker 1: New York, you happen to be a part of one

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Speaker 1: of the most powerful unions in the country, and so

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Speaker 1: you have a lot of leverage and power. What it

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Speaker 1: hasn't meant on the ground is that, yeah, it's a

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Speaker 1: lot harder to close the school. It's a lot harder

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Speaker 1: to come up with education policy that could be disruptive

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Speaker 1: without the union signing off. And Bloomberg just at a

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Speaker 1: certain point, for better or worse, gave up on that.

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Speaker 1: And that's not part of the de Blasio calculus. Blasio

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Speaker 1: began to dismantle much of what Bloomberg had done. Is

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Speaker 1: that correct? Yes, I don't think you could find two

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Speaker 1: people who disagree more on foundational aspects of what public

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Speaker 1: education should be. I mean, de Blasio said, we're not

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Speaker 1: going to close schools anymore. We're not gonna embrace charter schools.

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Speaker 1: We're not going to be as focused on tests or

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Speaker 1: on sort of what data tells us about how schools

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Speaker 1: are doing. We're not going to create smaller schools from large,

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Speaker 1: underperforming high schools. But the problem is, over the course

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Speaker 1: of the de Blasia administration, more and more research has

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Speaker 1: come out that backs up some of the controversial, really

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Speaker 1: really hard fought Bloomberg policies. We know that some of

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Speaker 1: that stuff was working. What's one that de Blasio has

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Speaker 1: tripped away that people have said was a mistake. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I think there's one really important example. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: there is nothing harder in public education than figuring out

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Speaker 1: how to take a catastrophically under performing school and somehow

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Speaker 1: make it okay for kids to go to. There's no

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Speaker 1: silver bullet. This is the hardest work in public education. Bloomberg,

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Speaker 1: you know, broke up schools, made them into smaller schools,

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Speaker 1: close them, tried to get teachers out, tried to get

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Speaker 1: principles out. But this made people in the communities really angry.

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Speaker 1: And to Blasio came in and said, don't worry, guys,

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Speaker 1: We're not going to do all that stuff that made

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Speaker 1: you upset. We're not them. We're not going to do

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Speaker 1: all that stuff that made you upset anymore. We're going

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Speaker 1: to take an entirely non controversial approach to school improvement.

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Speaker 1: It's a program called Renewal and ended up costing the

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Speaker 1: city almost eight hundred million dollars and it just uh

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Speaker 1: largely did not work. So do Blasio said, We're going

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Speaker 1: to flood under performing schools with resources and money and

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Speaker 1: coaches and after school and that's all great, there's nothing

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Speaker 1: to say that more money. In most it did not.

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Speaker 1: And at a certain point you have to say, we're

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Speaker 1: spending eight hundred million dollars and we're sending thousands of

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Speaker 1: vulnerable kids into schools after year that the city knew

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Speaker 1: vulnerable and described vulnerable so low income kids, homeless kids,

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Speaker 1: black and Hispanic kids, kids who in other words, deserve

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Speaker 1: a lot better from their government. And you know, it

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Speaker 1: was clear, i would say, from the first year of

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Speaker 1: this Renewal program in that it just wasn't coming together.

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Speaker 1: Principles were confused at what to do. A lot of

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Speaker 1: schools were not improving. Some did, some that were on

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Speaker 1: the bubble of actually being functional did, but a lot

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Speaker 1: of them didn't. And that meant that, you know, you

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Speaker 1: could have gone your whole way through high school in

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Speaker 1: an underperforming school that the city knew wasn't actually going

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Speaker 1: to be acceptable, and that has been a big black

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Speaker 1: mark on this administration's education policy, and it's really reverberated

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Speaker 1: across the country. People are saying breaking up schools is tough,

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Speaker 1: but a renewal like model that could even work. Um

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Speaker 1: does the New York City school system spend the same

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Speaker 1: amount of money per student system wide, so there is

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Speaker 1: a baseline per pupil. New York City spends a fair

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Speaker 1: amount of money on on a paltry amount of money. No,

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Speaker 1: it's not the problem. That's not the problem. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think everyone who works in the school would say

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Speaker 1: we need more. And there's every year in Albany, enduring

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Speaker 1: sort of the state legislative session, there are advocacy to

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Speaker 1: say we need more, we need more. Governor Cuomo has

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Speaker 1: added more money. I think what's really hard is that

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Speaker 1: in New York City we have a massive bureaucracy that

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Speaker 1: oversees by far, the largest school system in the country.

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Speaker 1: It's one point one million kids, and the bureaucracy has

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Speaker 1: basically never really functioned properly like ever in the last century.

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Speaker 1: And every few years there's a massive reorganization and we

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Speaker 1: think we're going to streamline it and get it right

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Speaker 1: this time. But it's really hard to build a system

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Speaker 1: around the huge variety of types of schools, types of kids,

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Speaker 1: vast needs in the system, and it's sort of this

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Speaker 1: constant bureaucratic project. And you know, Bloomberg recognized that, I

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Speaker 1: think pretty early, and he got rid of this system

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Speaker 1: where there were thirty two separate districts within the school

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Speaker 1: district that we're all making their own decisions. He standardized. Again,

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Speaker 1: that was like a very hard fought win. It's sort

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Speaker 1: of like six to one, half a dozen the other

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's almost impossible for this bureaucracy to effectively

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Speaker 1: run a system of schools. On the other hand, when

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Speaker 1: there were thirty two elected school boards, there was all

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Speaker 1: this corruption and patronage because know, you sort of do

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Speaker 1: neighborhood by neighborhood politics in New York and that gets messy.

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Speaker 1: So your cousin becomes the accountant for the local school board.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's all vastly exactly, and that's New York

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Speaker 1: and that's bureaucracy. But you know, I think there's no

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Speaker 1: denying that more money would be helpful, But in a

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Speaker 1: lot of cases it's leadership, teacher quality, organization, figuring out

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Speaker 1: also how the money is spent right for renewal. It's like, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe school A needs a new guidance counselor,

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Speaker 1: but School B just needs like a math coach because

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Speaker 1: this math teacher is not getting it. And sometimes more

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Speaker 1: money can lead to sort of a one size fits all,

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Speaker 1: So there needs to be more money with better planning,

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Speaker 1: and those two can be really tough to get together.

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Speaker 1: My dad was not in the teachers in my town.

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Speaker 1: In fact, when he crossed the picket line, some of

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Speaker 1: his own friends and colleague through things at him, and

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Speaker 1: they threw objects that you like, batteries you put into

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Speaker 1: a toy. And I don't mean to sound too libertarian here,

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Speaker 1: but it's like, why doesn't the union want there to

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Speaker 1: be some oversight by the taxpayers, by their duly elected

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Speaker 1: officials of their rank and file. Why, I mean, do

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Speaker 1: they have a point that there's some politicized filter that's

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Speaker 1: in place when when teachers and people are not promoted

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Speaker 1: or they're fired or whatever. Has that been proven? It's

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Speaker 1: a great question. I think, as with all things in

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Speaker 1: this system, there are two genuine sides to the issue.

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Speaker 1: So I think it is true that in the past

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Speaker 1: and I'm sure today there have been documented incidents where

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Speaker 1: principle throughout a teacher because they didn't like them. Has

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Speaker 1: my reporting shown that that is like a rampant crisis. No,

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Speaker 1: And I think that, you know, the New York City

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Speaker 1: Teachers Union. Only in the last decade or fifteen years

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Speaker 1: have groups really gun to question their power and say,

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Speaker 1: why is it that we have this group that you know,

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Speaker 1: city Hall has to do a handshake with them on

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Speaker 1: every education policy. Uh. You know, the teachers union has

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Speaker 1: a job which is to protect the teachers. The people

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Speaker 1: who lead the teachers union genuinely care about children and

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Speaker 1: want the school system to get better. I don't think

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Speaker 1: there's any question about that. But there are different priorities

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Speaker 1: when you run a school system as a chancellor, as

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Speaker 1: a mayor, and when you run a teacher's union. There

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Speaker 1: are some very valid questions that have been raised about

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Speaker 1: can we get rid of a teacher who's really demonstrated

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Speaker 1: themselves to be not qualified sooner. That's different from a

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Speaker 1: teacher who you know, maybe had a tough first year teaching.

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Speaker 1: This job is enormously difficult and really wants to get

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Speaker 1: better and need some coaching from a teacher who you

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Speaker 1: know has it, just doesn't have it, can't control classroom

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Speaker 1: or or or isn't showing up every day. You know,

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Speaker 1: these are these are different types of cases. It's like

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Speaker 1: the police would you would you would have No one

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Speaker 1: would want to get rid of bad cops more than

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Speaker 1: the good coups. Totally. But I would just say in

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Speaker 1: an ironic way, the teachers unions got a boost even

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Speaker 1: though Trump and the Admistration have gone after them. There

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Speaker 1: is this profound sense of unity, rallying cry, which is

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Speaker 1: what a union needs to be powerful and strong. That

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Speaker 1: Trump has helped in gender and politically, it's actually a

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Speaker 1: pretty good moment for the teachers. Who wants to be

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Speaker 1: a teacher today, I would imagine somebody who is a

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Speaker 1: glad for punishment. I mean, listen, this job is so

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Speaker 1: so hard. I spent a lot of time in classrooms

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Speaker 1: and probably in a school one full day a week,

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Speaker 1: and I mean just the behavioral stuff, just like getting

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Speaker 1: just like sort of be a badass and walk in

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Speaker 1: and you do it in a chair any chance, certainly not. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think there's a lot of new younger

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Speaker 1: teachers I'm meeting who really have like a like a

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Speaker 1: social justice point of view, who want to teach in

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Speaker 1: underperforming schools or schools a lot of homeless kids and

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Speaker 1: really feel like this is the best way, which I

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Speaker 1: certainly don't disagree with. This is a really good way

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Speaker 1: to make a difference in your community if you're concerned

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Speaker 1: about the state of the world. So there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of young teachers who say, like, I'm going to give

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Speaker 1: it my all in this school in Brownsville where thirty

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Speaker 1: percent of the kids are homeless. Um, there's a new

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Speaker 1: trend of having more cultural responsive education in school. So

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Speaker 1: that's you know, more books by authors of color, or

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Speaker 1: when we learn math, can we look at how you know,

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Speaker 1: the ancient Egyptians approached it. And I think there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of people who are coming out of school who

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Speaker 1: have learned this and it's not mumbo jumbo. I mean

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Speaker 1: it's real. Who want to bring it into schools and

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Speaker 1: modernize the schools because you know, if you walk into

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Speaker 1: like sort of a typical New York school, it's still

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Speaker 1: like a relatively can feel like, um, it can feel

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Speaker 1: a little bit trapped in time. What change would you

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Speaker 1: like to see. I mean, my pet obsession right now

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Speaker 1: is homelessness, and I sort of don't understand why the

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Speaker 1: d o E continues to plot along sort of having

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Speaker 1: a broad, unofficial office that looks at student homelessness. How

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Speaker 1: can it possibly be that there's a hundred four thousand

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Speaker 1: homeless kids and it's not really clear who's responsible for

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Speaker 1: them at the central office level. If there's going to

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Speaker 1: be a central bureaucracy, how can it be that one

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Speaker 1: of the most powerful offices in that bureaucracy is not

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Speaker 1: the one that deals with the single most vulnerable population

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Speaker 1: in the city. So, you know, I and I talked

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Speaker 1: to officials about this, and I just say, like, how

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Speaker 1: have you guys not gotten it together organizationally on this.

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Speaker 1: You have a large bureaucracy with a lot of money.

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Speaker 1: What else can you do? Um? But I mean to

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Speaker 1: your point about schools and poverty, I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: in the sort of charter school movement and education reform

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Speaker 1: movement of the last two decades, there has been this

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Speaker 1: hope and somewhat call it a fantasy, that schools can

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Speaker 1: trump poverty, and it's just not really true. Schools are

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Speaker 1: being asked to perform tasks that are impossible. What I

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Speaker 1: find very often when I go into high poverty schools

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Speaker 1: or school a lot of schools with lots of homeless students,

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Speaker 1: or schools with a lot of kids who are just

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Speaker 1: struggling academically, is that the principles are highly organized. Actually,

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Speaker 1: some of these principles were appointed under Bloomberg's reign because

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Speaker 1: he was very very focused on high quality principles, which

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Speaker 1: I think has worn out successfully. Who runs a school

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Speaker 1: really really matters. But you go into these schools and

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Speaker 1: you spend hour in the principal's office and you just

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Speaker 1: watch a highly affected person who's spending every forty seconds

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Speaker 1: putting out a different fire. And then people ask, well, like,

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Speaker 1: why aren't the test scores of this school higher? But

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Speaker 1: if you have a parent coming and saying I just

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Speaker 1: lost my housing, or we still haven't gotten a shelter

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Speaker 1: placement or um, you know, we don't have enough food,

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Speaker 1: it's really hard for these schools then to both essentially

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Speaker 1: act as social workers and case managers and you know,

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Speaker 1: be instructional leaders. We're asking a lot of educators in

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Speaker 1: schools that are segregated by race, poverty, housing status, and

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Speaker 1: the best principle in New York City can't do all

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Speaker 1: of it. New York Times Education reporter Eliza Shapiro. One

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Speaker 1: of my other favorite conversations with a journalist on Here's

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Speaker 1: the Thing was with the New York Times Stephen Lee Myers.

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Speaker 1: He wrote the excellent English language biography of Vladimir putin

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Speaker 1: the News are and is now the Times Beijing bureau chief.

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Speaker 1: There's no question that the biggest challenge to the United

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Speaker 1: States now is China. It's the economic challenge, it's the

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Speaker 1: military challenge, it's the trade challenge. I mean, it's it's

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Speaker 1: the issues that you're seeing this administration deal with, and

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Speaker 1: and Obama administration was dealing with it as well, and

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Speaker 1: whoever comes next going to be dealing with because China

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Speaker 1: is a country that really firmly believes in its destiny

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Speaker 1: and um and it's a system that is even more

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Speaker 1: authoritarian than Russia is, and more efficiently authoritarian than Russia is,

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Speaker 1: and that makes them more powerful. To hear my interview

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Speaker 1: with Stephen Lee Meyer's text Myers, that's m Y E. R. S.

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Speaker 1: Two seven zero one zero one. I'm Alec Baldwin, and

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Speaker 1: you're listening to Here's the thing the Eliza Shapiro told

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Speaker 1: me that one of the most controversial proposals floated under

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Speaker 1: the Deblasio administration is the outright elimination of gift didn't

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Speaker 1: talented programs in the New York City public schools. So Blasio,

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Speaker 1: facing pressure, as he so often does from his left

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Speaker 1: flank on social issues, He's been facing all this pressure

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Speaker 1: from advocacy, you have to do more to integrate the system.

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Speaker 1: So kind of as a way to get people off

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Speaker 1: his back, he said, Okay, I'm gonna you know, classic government.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to create a task force. They're going to

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Speaker 1: study integration, will get back to you in three years.

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Speaker 1: So the task force gets back to us and says,

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Speaker 1: you know, get rid of almost all gift and talented

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Speaker 1: PROGRESSI City. They said, because this Gift and Talented test,

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Speaker 1: which is given to kids when they're four, they don't

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Speaker 1: believe that that's a fair measure of gifts and talents,

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Speaker 1: And because they believe that putting kids who are academically

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Speaker 1: accelerated in different classrooms is inherently exclusionary and leads to segregation.

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Speaker 1: So they went. In fact, this group went much farther

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Speaker 1: than the mayor and immediately the mayor, even though he

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Speaker 1: commissioned and appointed this task force, said oh my god,

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Speaker 1: I barely know them. I'll get back to in a year.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I genuinely do not believe that to Blasio

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Speaker 1: believes that the city should get rid of gift and talented.

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Speaker 1: But there is a new coalition of advocates experts, I mean,

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Speaker 1: people who studied the issue, who say the idea of

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Speaker 1: gift and talented is inherently exclusionary, and we can have

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Speaker 1: more magnet schools, we can have more enrichment for all kids.

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Speaker 1: But this is this is the third rail of education

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Speaker 1: politics in New York City, and I don't know how

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Speaker 1: far they're going to get. Where have you seen? I know,

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Speaker 1: I was we we in our research. We so that

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Speaker 1: you mentioned Lawrence, Massachusetts and Campden, New Jersey's places where

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Speaker 1: there was some real progress. Describe that for me. Well, So,

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Speaker 1: Campton is a fascinating example because it is um one

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Speaker 1: of the absolute poorest, most desperate, most dangerous cities in

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Speaker 1: this country. It's sort of infamously a really really really

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Speaker 1: tough place to live, violent, violent, and just incredibly poor

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Speaker 1: and sort of sequestered and isolated, and kids have you know,

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Speaker 1: I have to deal with gun violence. You know, it

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Speaker 1: can be really dangerous to walk to school. The schools

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Speaker 1: have long been under performing. The school board there has

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Speaker 1: long been played by corruption. So you know, I spent

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Speaker 1: some time there recently to sort of say, like, how

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Speaker 1: can the schools get better here? It's a little bit

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Speaker 1: of like, if you can do it here, you can

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Speaker 1: probably at least apply a lot of this stuff to

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Speaker 1: other places, because Camden is really one of the roughest

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Speaker 1: places in this country. And what I learned when I

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Speaker 1: spent some time there is that and this is sort

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Speaker 1: of my answer to this question. I get of like, well,

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Speaker 1: what works, right? So what I found there is what

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Speaker 1: works is when you have people who run a school

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Speaker 1: system who are not ideological, who say like, okay, so

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Speaker 1: we have all these different reforms in different ways of

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Speaker 1: improving public education. But the unions believe A and B,

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Speaker 1: and the charter people believe X and Y and never

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Speaker 1: like to shall meet. Right. So actually there's good ideas

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Speaker 1: on all sides of this issue, even though education policies

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Speaker 1: and is so contentious. So let me give you an

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Speaker 1: example in Camden Um there are some really high performing

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Speaker 1: charter schools but they operate differently than almost any charter

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Speaker 1: in the country. That is because they are zoned charter schools.

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Speaker 1: So UM typically a charter schools what is ourship to

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Speaker 1: get an expert's opinion, what is a charter school? So

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Speaker 1: a charter school is a is a public school that

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Speaker 1: is privately managed and typically they are you get in

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Speaker 1: through a lottery system that's open to um anybody in

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Speaker 1: the city. So there's a lot of charter schools, for

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Speaker 1: example in Harlem, but technically anybody can apply and if

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Speaker 1: you are lucky enough you know, to essentially win a

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Speaker 1: golden ticket and get into a good charter school in Harlem,

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Speaker 1: you can go and who runs them? Who runs them?

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Speaker 1: So sometimes it's sort of what we call like mom

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Speaker 1: and pop charters. Like one founder decided I want to

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Speaker 1: start a charter for example, that helps kids with autism,

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Speaker 1: which is a charter here. Yes, I mean they basically

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Speaker 1: go through a process to get a charter and then

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Speaker 1: they get typically they get public space in New York City,

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Speaker 1: although some are in private space that they pay for.

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Speaker 1: Typically there they have this lottery system. So what it

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Speaker 1: sometimes means is that parents who know about the lottery

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Speaker 1: will sign up for the lottery, but many parents don't

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Speaker 1: know or there's vulnerability where like you might not be

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Speaker 1: able to just get it together to fill out the

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Speaker 1: application and understand how it works, and sometimes you have

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Speaker 1: to line up. I mean, there's all these sort of

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Speaker 1: different ways that have benefited lots of poor kids, but

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Speaker 1: sometimes not the absolute needius kids. So, for example, in Camden,

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Speaker 1: instead of having a lottery system, you'll have a charter

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Speaker 1: that is open to kids um own in a neighborhood,

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Speaker 1: so it sort of operates like a typical zone public school,

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Speaker 1: yet it's a charter. And so what that means is

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Speaker 1: that kids with severe special needs, kids who live in

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Speaker 1: incredibly tough homes, kids who are homeless, go into the

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Speaker 1: high performing, excellent, well organized charter and they can't sort

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Speaker 1: of be counseled out or kicked out or told maybe

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Speaker 1: this charter isn't for you, go to the public school,

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Speaker 1: because the charter actually serves that purpose. So it's incredibly

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Speaker 1: interesting hybrid model between a traditional public school and sort

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Speaker 1: of a newer, innovative charter. And that's helped a lot

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Speaker 1: of kids in Camden, and it could probably help a

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Speaker 1: lot of kids in New York city. But you don't

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Speaker 1: see that happening here. No, And that's because it's the

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Speaker 1: union situation. What's the strength of the union situation across

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Speaker 1: the river. It's not that far away. It's it's just

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Speaker 1: just not as strong of a union. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: don't think that's the only reason that they got it

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Speaker 1: together in Camden. But the politics of education in New

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Speaker 1: York are so profoundly entrenched, and it's hard for that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think there are two really

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Speaker 1: powerful sides in New York. This is not the case

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Speaker 1: in every city, but in New York, you have a

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Speaker 1: really powerful union. You actually have a very strong mayor.

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Speaker 1: We have mayoral control and he runs this system. And

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Speaker 1: there's no school board, there's no powerful school board. You

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Speaker 1: have a very powerful charter school sector that has a

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Speaker 1: significant lobbying arm. And sort of these three big groups

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Speaker 1: are constantly fighting, and it has just become difficult, because

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Speaker 1: of the complex, crazy politics of our city for these

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Speaker 1: sort of three groups to meet and say, um, well,

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Speaker 1: you have a really good idea about this, and I

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Speaker 1: have a really good idea about this, and we can

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Speaker 1: combine A and B to make a smart policy. See.

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Speaker 1: But it just doesn't really happen. I mean, New York

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Speaker 1: politics are really wild, and it's a hard place to

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Speaker 1: make hybrid policy work. And I found that sometimes in

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Speaker 1: smaller cities, with um less powerful unions or less powerful

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Speaker 1: lobbying groups, or less powerful charter groups and just a

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Speaker 1: smaller centralized government, it's just easier to get stuff done.

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Speaker 1: I mean, again, that's what we've been talking about. It's

430
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: just really hard with the system of one point one

431
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 1: million kids to make good policy for everybody. What about Lawrence, Massachusetts?

432
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 1: What did you observe there? What they did was said, Okay,

433
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: we have this chronically underperforming district. Enough is enough. What

434
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 1: we're gonna do is have somebody come and essentially take

435
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 1: over this district, someone who's a really, really experienced educator,

436
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,360
Speaker 1: who has experienced in school improvement. We're going to take

437
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 1: over this district. And here's kind of we're going to

438
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 1: lay down the law. We're gonna say that we are

439
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: transforming the expectations for this district. We're bringing data to bear. Uh,

440
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: we are adding community supports where they're needed, but not

441
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,479
Speaker 1: as in delas renewal, sort of a one size fits all.

442
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 1: We're saying this school could use this, but that school

443
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: could use that. And you know, just incredibly effective government

444
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: and bureaucracy to say there's one person who's responsible for this,

445
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: all of the work's going to come out of his office.

446
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: You know. Sometimes I just feel with school improvement it

447
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: has to be small scale. To start with the renewal program,

448
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: Delasi said we're going to turn around a hundred schools

449
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: in three years. It's just not how this works. I

450
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,360
Speaker 1: think one of the biggest mistakes was not figuring out

451
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: what worked well in ten to fifteen schools and then

452
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 1: applying it to two hundred schools. But again, what you

453
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: have in Lawrence and in Camden is this non ideological approach.

454
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: You say, yes, we're gonna have community services, which some

455
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 1: education reform people scoff at and say it's all about

456
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 1: the tests or it's all about high expectations. And we're

457
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: going to approach education reform in a non ideological way

458
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 1: and say we support charters and we support data, and

459
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: you just have both because both sides have good ideas.

460
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: It's also reflective of I'm not going to name them,

461
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: but there were two public schools, one in my current

462
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: neighborhood and one on the Upper West Side where I

463
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: used to live. That the parents have formed some parent

464
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 1: organization and they've taken over the public school and they've

465
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 1: really fluffed it up to a fairy well where the

466
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 1: parents they want their kids to have new microscopes and

467
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 1: some of the moms and dads are gonna front the

468
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: money boom. They're ready to check. And their whole mentality

469
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,959
Speaker 1: was we got the dough and they didn't want their

470
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 1: kids necessarily to go to private school. So they have

471
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,919
Speaker 1: kind of taken over these public schools and made them

472
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 1: like really pretty sweet. Have you observed that? Yes? Absolutely.

473
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: I mean this is like it's like, why wouldn't you

474
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: I mean, private school in New York City is really

475
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: really expensive. So if you have a high quality yeah,

476
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: if you have a high quality public school with a

477
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: strong parent teacher association and a super powerful, active, you know,

478
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 1: group of parents who can raise you know, literally as

479
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 1: much as one million dollars annually at fancy auctions, why

480
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: wouldn't you save yourselves? I mean, but this is like

481
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 1: where we get to the haves and have nots of

482
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 1: this system. I mean, we talk a lot about resources

483
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 1: and money, and that's a huge part of it, and

484
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 1: PTA fundraising is a huge part of it. But we're

485
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 1: really also talking about is power. Which parents have power, time, connections,

486
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 1: organizational prowess to pick up the phone and call your

487
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: city council member, call your state senator and say, you know,

488
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: our roof at ps whatever is leaking, or we really

489
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: need some new laptops for these kids, and we're going

490
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: to make a stink until we get them right. That is,

491
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: that is a parent who inherently has a little bit

492
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: more time, money, privilege, etcetera. There are parents with power

493
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: in the city and their parents without power. You remind

494
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: me of when my daughter, my older daughter, Ireland, went

495
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: to private school and we get there and we said,

496
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm so sorry. I know we're coming

497
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 1: to you to come in mid year. We're coming for

498
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: the spring semester, and uh, I'd be so grateful. I mean,

499
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:07,959
Speaker 1: I'm really late. I'm not pretty thick. And then one said, well,

500
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: we do keep a couple of admisitions mid year in

501
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: our pocket distint case you never know. I mean, we

502
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: do have people who that this does happen. You mean

503
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: you're not the first person. And I said, oh, thank you.

504
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: There anything we can do, and the woman looks at

505
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 1: me and there's a breath and she goes, we could

506
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: use a new faculty parking lot. Oh my god. And

507
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm sorry, and she said yes, she

508
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: said the parking lot and she points out the window

509
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: of her office. She was we would really like to

510
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: get that paved. And I was like, done, Oh my god. Done.

511
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: I mean, wrap it up. I'm done. I'll do that

512
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: for you. I'd love to do that for you. And

513
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: I paved the parking lot of the private school. Um,

514
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: you don't have children. I don't. If you had children,

515
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 1: where would just send him to school? Yeah? It's interesting.

516
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 1: You know, I went to public and private schools in

517
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: New York. So what I have thought about if and

518
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: when I have my own kids is the culture of

519
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,479
Speaker 1: New York City p of its schools is a bubble.

520
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 1: And one thing I found with the kids who had

521
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: gone to Sands the whole way through in Brooklyn is

522
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: that a lot of them had absolutely no sense of

523
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: the wider world. We didn't talk about you know, we're

524
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: in this borough where there's like massive poverty. We just said, like,

525
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: things are good for us. And I think you were like,

526
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 1: are you going to deer Valley this year. Yeah, I

527
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: would also say that in some public schools that are

528
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: sort of almost like referred to as some my private schools,

529
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: there is probably a lack of understanding of the broader

530
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: system in which your school sits. So whatever I would

531
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: want for my kids would be like, Hey, you're part

532
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: of a system and part of a city. And that's

533
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: what I see when I I would, I would, I

534
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: don't know, like I mean, I mean, they I can't

535
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: imagine how like I mean, that's how I just feel, Like,

536
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,239
Speaker 1: what do you do on Saturday when you wake up?

537
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: You just stay home all day? I literally don't know. Um,

538
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: I try to leave New York all the time, and

539
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: then I do, and then I think it's awful. No,

540
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I would, I would like to raise kids

541
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: in the city. But but what I really feel is that,

542
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: you know, this is like a broader theme of my

543
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: work and my coverage is you know, when I cover

544
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 1: tough fights about reasonings or integration or you know, admissions changes,

545
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: there's a huge variety and how parents and families see

546
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: themselves as part of a city. Are you just about

547
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: your school on your neighborhood and making sure your p

548
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: t a is well funded, making sure everything's hunky dory there,

549
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: or are you part of this massive system where if

550
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: there are terrible schools or underperforming schools or cash strap

551
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: schools on the other side of your district, how much

552
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: do you care about them versus the school on your

553
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: corner where everything seems to be fine. Um, what's the

554
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: best way of measuring student outcomes? Yeah, it's tough. I mean,

555
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: test scores are a really blunt measure. There's been a

556
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 1: huge political backlash to using test scores to make almost

557
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: any decision. Part of Deblasio is pitch as a mayoral

558
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: candidate in there was a lot of frustration with how

559
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: much Bloomberg had prize tests, and de Blasio said, Okay, like,

560
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: not to worry, folks, I'm no longer going to make

561
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 1: decisions in terms of promoting a student, in terms of

562
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: assessing a school, in terms of assessing a principle primarily

563
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: or mostly according to tests. So the stakes of tests

564
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: were significantly lowered, but it is the single best diagnostic

565
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: tool we continue to have. I mean, graduation rates to

566
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: tell us something, but of course they're only for high schools.

567
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 1: I think part of the problem with the backlash against

568
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 1: test scores is that if you don't use test scores,

569
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: things get a little fuzzy. So you'll have people saying, well,

570
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: what is the trust level at this school? That stuff

571
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,479
Speaker 1: is important, but it's very very hard to measure, and

572
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 1: it takes a lot of time and in sort of

573
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: deep connections within one school to figure out what that means.

574
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: How much do the teachers trust the principle, how much

575
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 1: do the teachers do the kids trust? Of fiction between

576
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 1: that between principles and teachers some I mean, they're all

577
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: these kind of things that are really hard to measure

578
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: from the outside. Like you walk into a building and

579
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: you can tell it's functional by how the principle is

580
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: interacting with the math teacher. Or you walk the hallways

581
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: and you see is the writing and art on the

582
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: hallways being updated frequently or is this from last spring?

583
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: I mean, there's sort of all these soft, soft measures.

584
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I learned to tour schools from the former chancellor,

585
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: Carmen Fremia, who was spent fifty years in the classroom

586
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: and had all these really amazing tips and tricks you

587
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: would never think of. But it is incredibly hard to

588
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 1: go into one school and spend a day and assess it,

589
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: because schools are these crazy ecosystems where everything is always

590
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 1: changing and a kid could be disruptive on Monday and

591
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: by Tuesday he's the smartest kid in the one person

592
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: when he walks in the door at the beginning of

593
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: that year, and another person when he walks out of it.

594
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: You talked about very young people exactly, and it's constantly changing.

595
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: It's really really hard to assess. And that's why, you know,

596
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 1: unless you'd like to spend eight hours a day in

597
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: schools for a year. Test scores do tell us something

598
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: and test scores and evaluating teachers. So this is a

599
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,760
Speaker 1: part of the backlash to test scores is that teacher

600
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 1: evaluations have been caught up in that fight. So the

601
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 1: backlash to testing sort of advocates against testing and said, well,

602
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: you can't possibly use the students test score to evaluate

603
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: how other teacher is teaching them. And I think there's

604
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 1: probably an argument that if you're a gym teacher and

605
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: you're student is not doing well in math, and maybe

606
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 1: you're not a bad gym teacher, but if you're a

607
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:55,720
Speaker 1: math teacher and your kids are of them or more

608
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: are not able to pass the third grade state math test.

609
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: What's going on on in that classroom? And you know,

610
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: we've had this saga in New York over the last

611
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: ten years, how should we evaluate teachers. We've gone, we've

612
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 1: flipped the pendulum every which way you can imagine, and

613
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: we don't really have a clear system today. I mean

614
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: it's constantly being negotiated behind closed doors in Albany of

615
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 1: what our evaluation system should be. So we don't have

616
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: a coherent teacher evaluation system. But there's a strong argument

617
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: to be made that strong evaluation systems that are not

618
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: you can have a strong evaluation that's not a punitive evaluation, right,

619
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 1: but saying how are your kids doing on tests? How

620
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 1: are they doing on internal quizzes, how are they you know,

621
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,839
Speaker 1: what's their portfolio of work look like? To take evaluation

622
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 1: seriously and not say you lose your job if you

623
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: don't have the rating we want in this semester. But

624
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: to have a strong, comprehensive evaluation system, yeah, I think

625
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 1: that's important. Well, one more quick question. Richard Carrnza, the

626
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 1: head of the New York City School System. I always

627
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 1: feel like, and I mean always feel like that you're

628
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: the person that's drafted to play quarterback, the most porous

629
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 1: offensive line in the NFL, no matter how talented they are.

630
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,280
Speaker 1: That the number one pick, they won the Heisman Trophy,

631
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 1: and they've got the shittiest offensive line in the world.

632
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:11,879
Speaker 1: It's just you're just going to get the crap beat

633
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 1: out of this and be a political punching bag. Is

634
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,760
Speaker 1: that true? Yes, yes, you will be. It is really

635
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: hard not to be. Background. He is a New New Yorker,

636
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: brand New Yorker. He'd barely been here before it took

637
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: over the school system last year. He had been a

638
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: superintendent in Houston and in San Francisco, and he had

639
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 1: been administrator in Tucson, Arizona, and done well and done

640
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 1: reasonably well, although I would say he didn't necessarily have

641
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 1: sort of really clear, huge signature winds in those places.

642
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I think he did interesting work. But this

643
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: is his biggest arena. It is the biggest arena. And

644
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: we're almost two years into Kranza's tenure, with only two

645
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 1: years to go because de Blasi will be treum limited

646
00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: out and he does not have a signature initiative yet.

647
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: One thing that I think is really challenging is that

648
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 1: Karansa believes more in the power of disruptive structural change

649
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 1: probably than to Blasio does. But de Blasio runs the

650
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: school system. Kranza doesn't. And so I actually think there's

651
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 1: a lot that these two guys don't agree on, and

652
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 1: so not a lot is happening. He's been doing a

653
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:19,800
Speaker 1: lot of ducking. He's been doing a lot of ducking.

654
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: He's been doing a lot of talking. So he came in,

655
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: guns blazing, saying, folks, I'm an outsider and I'm here

656
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: to tell you your school system is segregated, which is correct,

657
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 1: and there's a lot here that I'm gonna take some

658
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 1: big swings at and we're just going to have to

659
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: deal with it. And a lot of people said, all right,

660
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,439
Speaker 1: like show us what you've got, But we don't really

661
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: know what that is yet. That's the thing, I mean.

662
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,919
Speaker 1: To Blasi's biggest education initiative, pre K for All, all

663
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 1: mostly tied up in a bow before Kranza came to town.

664
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: Renewal was created and failed essentially before Kranza got here. Um,

665
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 1: and now we're sort of in this moment where you know,

666
00:37:57,520 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: de Blasia ran for president, he came back home, we

667
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 1: don't really know what his next big education thing is,

668
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: and I think he has a limited amount of time

669
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 1: again because implementing change is so i'm consuming and glacial.

670
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 1: So if you've got two years left to say you're

671
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 1: going to take big steps to desegregate, the clock is

672
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: really ticking. Yeah. And the and the last thing I

673
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: want to say is that, to me, this is the

674
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 1: problem is that in addition to STEM, in addition to

675
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 1: you learning all the things we want you to learn

676
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: and all the things you want to learn in school,

677
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: I want you to learn how to think critically. And

678
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 1: what we have now is a critical mass of people

679
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 1: who don't know how to think critically. And they're the

680
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 1: ones that got this guy elected president of the United States. Yeah.

681
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: I mean, what I think is really challenging and explosive

682
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 1: about this moment in New York politics is that we

683
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,879
Speaker 1: are a liberal city and we are reckoning with oh

684
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 1: my god, Donald Trump as president and all of these

685
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,439
Speaker 1: people the day after the election got involved in their

686
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 1: p t a is in their school boards and their

687
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 1: parent education councils. And three years later, what we see

688
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 1: is some change, but a lot of conflict. And you know,

689
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,280
Speaker 1: people really wanted to get involved and make a difference

690
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 1: in their schools. And I think a lot of people

691
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 1: have been frustrated and felt stymied and felt disappointed. And

692
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 1: what I really feel I'm covering right now is like

693
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: a is like a liberal city sort of at war

694
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 1: with itself over at schools. And it is really just

695
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 1: this singular, intense moment for the school system. And I

696
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 1: think it's largely because of the broader political climate. Eliza

697
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,879
Speaker 1: Shapiro of The New York Times on the strange confluence

698
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 1: of national and local politics and the kids caught in

699
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: the middle. I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's

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00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 1: the Thing for Fort