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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Breaking news Savannah Guthrie's mother,

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Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie missing, day ten. What a night in the

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Speaker 1: last hours we have obtained we have been given video

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Speaker 1: from Nancy Guthrie's front porch. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us. Let's go straight to the video. He's ready.

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Speaker 1: He's got his hands covered in gloves. Look to be latex,

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Speaker 1: not the thin surgical gloves. Think you're latex. He's wearing

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Speaker 1: a backpack. Hey, jump on that. What kind of backpack? Sold?

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Speaker 2: Where?

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Speaker 1: When leaning over? What is he doing? You're about to

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Speaker 1: find out Genius pulled some foliage and he's going to

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Speaker 1: try and cover up the camera with it. He's still

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Speaker 1: trying to get it loose. He's still trying to crack

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Speaker 1: it loose, leaving no fingerprints. Even his wrists are covered

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Speaker 1: up so we can't see what color he is. But

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Speaker 1: we've got a thinky suspicion. There you go with the foliage.

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Speaker 1: He's trying to cover up the door cam. He came prepared,

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Speaker 1: full on ski mask, wrists covered, face covered, hands covered,

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Speaker 1: trying to cover the nest camera. The door cam. This

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Speaker 1: could be the break we've all been waiting for. There's

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Speaker 1: another video here. He comes walking up and is that

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Speaker 1: a gun he's got tucked into his waistband, holding his

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Speaker 1: face down, holding the face down so he won't be identified.

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Speaker 1: Check out the backpack reflectors on the shoulders. Come on,

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Speaker 1: can't we track that? Can we zoom in and get

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Speaker 1: the shoes? We can get his height, We can get

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Speaker 1: so much information. Now, let's see the steals off his face.

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Speaker 1: You know what. She may have had a heart attack.

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Speaker 1: She wakes up and sees that. That looks like a

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Speaker 1: white guy. To me, a white guy right there. You

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Speaker 1: can't see it. It almost looks feminine, but apparently in

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Speaker 1: some of the pictures you see facial hair over the lip.

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Speaker 1: It looks like brunette facial hair. Can't tell exactly, Dave

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Speaker 1: Mac does that look like facial hair over the lip?

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Speaker 3: It looks like a mustache to me, Nancy, it absolutely does.

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Speaker 3: And hello, I love the bottom lip looks like chin

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Speaker 3: hair as well.

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Speaker 1: Okay, from that, we are learning so much again. It

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Speaker 1: almost looks feminine, except for what we fate could be

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Speaker 1: facial hair. Joining us an all star panel this as

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Speaker 1: we are also learning that buckle or buckle swabs are

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Speaker 1: being taken from the inner circle surrounding Nancy Guthrie, the

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Speaker 1: pool guy, the gardener, the granny, nannies, the you name it.

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Speaker 1: And if they're getting bugle swabs from them, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: they've already gotten them from the family. Now, somebody please

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Speaker 1: tell me we've strapped everybody up to a polygraph. More

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Speaker 1: and more, this seems as if someone close to missus

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Speaker 1: Guthrie is at the heart of her kidnap. And again,

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Speaker 1: the guy walking up, the guy, the person the purp

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Speaker 1: walking up. See he's even got his neck covered, thinking

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Speaker 1: we won't be able to identify what color is. This

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Speaker 1: is not just a rape, just a robbery, just a burglar.

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Speaker 1: We've been going round and around some people chasing their tails.

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Speaker 1: Is this really a kidnap? I can tell you right now.

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Speaker 1: Nobody goes through all this to run in and grab

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Speaker 1: your VCR. What has he got in the backpack? It

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Speaker 1: is chuck full. What's in there? It's stuffed so much.

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Speaker 1: You can see when he turns around. He's not going

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Speaker 1: in there to take anything. He's taking things in with him.

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Speaker 1: Straight out to Lee Neubecker joining us out of Chicago

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Speaker 1: cybersecurity digital forensics expert CEO of Enigma Forensics. What about it, Lee,

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Speaker 1: What do you see?

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Speaker 2: It's interesting because he hunches down as he goes through

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Speaker 2: the walkway. Had he not hunched down, you could go

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Speaker 2: out site measure the bricks and get us. I did

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Speaker 2: a little bit of looking and making some assumptions, and

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Speaker 2: I think you guy's probably between five eleven and six

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Speaker 2: foot two. But you can also see a shoes as

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Speaker 2: he steps on those bricks, like right now, and also

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Speaker 2: the first step it hold.

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Speaker 1: It right there, right there, Yes.

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Speaker 2: You're right, stop there. You could you could back up

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Speaker 2: and if you knew the exact size of that brick,

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Speaker 2: you could probably tell what his shoes size is. He

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Speaker 2: looks like it appears to be a male based on

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Speaker 2: my review of it, but knowing that his approximate height

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Speaker 2: is approximate weight, and if his hair color truly is black,

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Speaker 2: which it appears to be from the one show, but

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Speaker 2: it could be brown, it's a definitely something to coal.

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Speaker 2: I thought your comments about having the family members take

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Speaker 2: polygraph was a good idea, but maybe matching up the

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Speaker 2: height of the people to see if they match up

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Speaker 2: at least to Shoeshye, the shoe size which doesn't appear

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Speaker 2: to be larger than sized.

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Speaker 1: Well, oh, it is a man. There's no doubt about

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Speaker 1: it being a man. It's a feminine with feminine attributes.

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Speaker 1: But statistically, this is a man, and it's a freaky

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Speaker 1: white man. Statistically, that's exactly what it is. I'm just

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Speaker 1: wondering there he gets standing up straight right there, and

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering if they're going to be able to get

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Speaker 1: any type of height from that. You know the problem

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Speaker 1: with it, he's not standing right besides something to gauge

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Speaker 1: the height. Lee Kniebecker, joining us Enigma Forensics, explained why

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Speaker 1: he really needs to be standing besides something in order

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Speaker 1: to get an accurate height.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think there's enough there to discern the height.

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Speaker 2: You can see where his shoulder when he bends over,

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Speaker 2: you can see how high his shoulder is. Like, great,

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Speaker 2: there he's level. Yes, So you could do some mapping

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Speaker 2: to the bricks on the side by taking a tape

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Speaker 2: measure out and measuring the sidewall, you'd at least know

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Speaker 2: where his shoulder goes up. And then later on, is

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Speaker 2: he walks forward, his head's lifted and you can measure

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Speaker 2: the head right about not there, but as he continues,

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Speaker 2: he lifts his head straight and you break. So when

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Speaker 2: he was standing back a little bit, there's some ability.

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Speaker 2: There's certainly fascinating.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know. Cheryl McCullum is joining me. Cold Case

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Speaker 1: Investigative Research Institute, founder, author of a brand new book,

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Speaker 1: Swamps Don't Swim in a Sewer, Solving the cold case

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Speaker 1: of Flint River Killer's daughter. She's a host of a

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Speaker 1: hit podcast which I play on Loop occasionally, Zone seven,

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Speaker 1: and she is a forensic expert. Cheryl McCollum, how many

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Speaker 1: times have you and I worked the case, worked the case,

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Speaker 1: worked a case with blood, sweat, tears, literally working a

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Speaker 1: case at our wits end, and then God drops a treasure,

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Speaker 1: a miracle in our lapse.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, And you know, Nancy, it's not just the face

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Speaker 4: that we get. That backpack. I want to talk about

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Speaker 4: that a second, because that backpack is full, It is

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Speaker 4: tight with items. That's a kit, that's not somebody that

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Speaker 4: went there to commit a burglary. There's no room for

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Speaker 4: other items. If you watch, it looks like he is

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Speaker 4: super prepared. He's going to get rid of the camera.

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Speaker 4: He's got a backpack full of whatever he's going to

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Speaker 4: use to do whatever he sticks in to do. But

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Speaker 4: yet he's got to turn around and grab flowers to

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Speaker 4: hide behind to remove the camera. So this is not

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Speaker 4: some pro Look at the odd placement of this weapon.

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Speaker 4: I mean, everything is just really unusual. But another thing

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Speaker 4: that sticks out for me is the flood cameras that

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Speaker 4: were damaged on the guest house. Again, that looks staged.

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Speaker 4: Why would you damage those cameras. It's nowhere near the

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Speaker 4: front door. We know now for sure he went to

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Speaker 4: the front door, even tried the doorknob first before he

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Speaker 4: did anything else. This seems stage to me, or either

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Speaker 4: he thought the guest house was the house.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean it seems staged?

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Speaker 4: Why else would you damage a camera on the back

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Speaker 4: of the house that you're not even going to He

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Speaker 4: went in the front door, we know that where the

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Speaker 4: blood is, and we know the blood is Dancy. They've

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Speaker 4: already said that that was the exit. So if he's

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Speaker 4: only dealing with the front door, why would you damage

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Speaker 4: floodlights on the back of the house. You're not dealing

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Speaker 4: with the back of the house.

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Speaker 1: Did you think that he tried to go in the

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Speaker 1: back at some juncture.

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Speaker 4: Either he went there and he realized it was the

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Speaker 4: long house because that was the guest house, and then

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Speaker 4: he went to the front door.

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Speaker 1: Take a look, guys, we were just receiving this in

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Speaker 1: every once in a while, out of the blue, you

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Speaker 1: get a break. Now, I'm telling you this was. It

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Speaker 1: didn't just fall out of the sky. The FBI have

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Speaker 1: worked long and hard to get this. To retrieve this

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Speaker 1: because her home came was not recording, they had to

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Speaker 1: go through a lot of hoops to get this. Joining

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Speaker 1: us is Chris mcdona, director Cole Case Foundation, former homicide detective,

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Speaker 1: over three hundred homicides under his belt. He is the

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Speaker 1: star of the interview Room on YouTube. Okay McDonough analyze.

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Speaker 5: Well, Nancy, I think you know there's a couple of

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Speaker 5: things that we can learn here. Number one is the

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Speaker 5: weapon that he's carrying. He's got it in the ready position,

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Speaker 5: and that would tell us he's dominant right hand, So

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Speaker 5: we're looking for somebody, you know, who is right handed

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Speaker 5: that would fire that weapon. And then we look at

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Speaker 5: his facial hair potentially behind that mask. It looks like

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Speaker 5: he has a mustache and a goatee of some sort.

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Speaker 5: Or at least chin hair of some sort. And I

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Speaker 5: agree with Cheryl one thousand percent. He has come to

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Speaker 5: this location completely prepared and then he puts his head down,

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Speaker 5: you know, as he is walking towards the front porch.

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Speaker 5: If you'll notice the lights in the background, somebody is

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Speaker 5: awake in that neighborhood. So I'm assuming the authorities went

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Speaker 5: over to those houses and canvas those houses pretty quickly.

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Speaker 5: I also want to know where the suspects vehicle is.

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Speaker 5: That's going to be a key piece of this puzzle.

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Speaker 5: If he took missus Guthrie out through that door, because

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Speaker 5: in this video we're not seeing any blood evidence at

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Speaker 5: that point. So at some point there has to be

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Speaker 5: another video of him leaving potentially, or he put the

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Speaker 5: rolling video into his pocket because it was battery operated,

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Speaker 5: because it wasn't hardwired, it would still send this data

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Speaker 5: up to a server. So there's a vehicle still in play.

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Speaker 5: And at some point he brings her out of that house,

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Speaker 5: you know, potentially through the front door because of her

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Speaker 5: blood is there or as you know Cheryl's talking about,

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Speaker 5: this is a this is a staging situation where the

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Speaker 5: blood becomes an afterthought. This is after the situation that's

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Speaker 5: already you know, maybe she's been bound or certain other

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Speaker 5: indicators inside of the house, which we don't have data

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Speaker 5: on that.

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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace guys gets just in and

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Speaker 1: I believe there will be more. So Chris McDonough, I

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Speaker 1: hear what you're saying. Look at what he's doing, Dave

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Speaker 1: Matt What is he doing right there? Trying to dislodge

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Speaker 1: the door cam.

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Speaker 3: He's looking for something, and you've been him reaching down

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Speaker 3: to get the some type of shrubbery. But Nancy, look

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Speaker 3: look at his hands, those gloves. It looks like he's

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Speaker 3: wearing two pairs of gloves. Those things are stretched and

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Speaker 3: that hand is much thicker than it would be for

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Speaker 3: a person.

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Speaker 1: Of his size. And so I'm.

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Speaker 3: Thinking that overglove he's got another glove underneath, which kind

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Speaker 3: of goes back to that backpack. Why in the world

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Speaker 3: would anybody come to an event like this with a

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Speaker 3: backpack so filled that, I mean, what else does he need.

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Speaker 3: You're talking about eighty four year old woman who can't

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Speaker 3: walk very far. Why would you need to have your

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Speaker 3: backpack all filled with stuff? So something's really not right.

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Speaker 3: And as you mentioned, taking the camera off I'm amazed

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Speaker 3: they were able to get this much video from this

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Speaker 3: system based on what they had to go through and

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Speaker 3: how long it took. But I'm just I'm still looking

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Speaker 3: at this. It looks like the outfit he's wearing is

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Speaker 3: brand new. It doesn't look like it's been used. Why

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Speaker 3: are they so thick except for wearing two pair?

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Speaker 1: I wonder if he changed clothes, like if he shed

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Speaker 1: see what I mean? I had a purp do that

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Speaker 1: before he robbed a bank in one outfit, double breasted suit, hat, wig,

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Speaker 1: you name it, came out of the bank, stripped it

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Speaker 1: all off, It was basted up the back, and he

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Speaker 1: had another outfit on beneath it, shorts and a short

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Speaker 1: sleeved shirt. Okay, is it possible? Look, you're right, it

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Speaker 1: does look like his clothes, his hands, his legs are stuffed.

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Speaker 1: Is he wearing another outfit underneath? Let's see him walking

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Speaker 1: up again. Okay? Another question to McDonough, do you see

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Speaker 1: if you could control room? Please show me a close

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Speaker 1: up of the weapon that is dangling down from his waist.

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Speaker 1: You stated that was the right hand dominant.

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Speaker 5: Explained, well, if you look at his right hand there

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Speaker 5: immediately he is at the handle of the weapon, so

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Speaker 5: he'll he can reach right over and pull that gun out.

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Speaker 5: If he was left hand dominant, it would have been absolutely,

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Speaker 5: you know, the opposite direction. And so in this situation

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Speaker 5: we know he's potentially right hand dominant. And if you'll

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Speaker 5: notice also, Nancy, when he comes up onto the porch

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Speaker 5: and then he turns around and goes back towards the

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Speaker 5: debris in the you know, the area there where he

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Speaker 5: bends over and picks it up. There's a brief second

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Speaker 5: where he felt that maybe something he had heard, something,

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Speaker 5: seen something. He pauses see him looking right there. So

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Speaker 5: at some point y, Yes, there's something that spooped him

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Speaker 5: for a brief second, and then he felt, okay, I'm okay.

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Speaker 5: So this is telling us he's very comfortable in this

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Speaker 5: environment because he continued on with that activity.

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Speaker 1: Can you see which way the handle of the gun? Yes,

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Speaker 1: which which side has a handle of the gun?

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Speaker 5: Macdona, the right side, right where his right hand is.

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Speaker 5: All he has to do is reach over and pull

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Speaker 5: that weapon and all the hole.

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Speaker 1: Strup, I see what you're saying. Now you're right there.

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Speaker 1: It is that right there. That's the shot. That's the shot.

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Speaker 1: You know, holding that shot. I wonder if we could

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Speaker 1: tell what kind of tennis use he's wearing. Check it out.

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Speaker 1: Everything matters, But I'm especially intrigued by the backpack. Cheryl McCollum.

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Speaker 4: Why, Nancy, that backpack is stilled. Every single pocket it

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Speaker 4: is stuffed with something. So it makes you think if

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Speaker 4: this is a kit? Is there a tart? Is there

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Speaker 4: other weapons? Is there something to bind her with, tie

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Speaker 4: her up with. He didn't come there again to commit

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Speaker 4: a burglary. He's got no room to put valuables. So this,

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Speaker 4: to me is critical that they understand that even if

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Speaker 4: you look at the very back when he bends down,

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Speaker 4: even that back pocket, the small pocket has got items

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Speaker 4: in it. So it tells me that is a kit

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Speaker 4: like a kill kid.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean, Why is looking through an opaque

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Speaker 1: backpack tell you he's got a kill.

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Speaker 4: He's got gloves though, he's got a way to cover

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Speaker 4: his faith. He's removing cameras, he's removing lights. He did

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Speaker 4: not have to do all of that and then carry

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Speaker 4: more items with him inside the house and make an

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Speaker 4: eighty four year old woman believe he went there to

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Speaker 4: do violence. He went there to do harm. The only

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Speaker 4: thing taken out of the house that we've been told

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Speaker 4: is an antcy Guthrie. This tells me whatever was in

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Speaker 4: that bag assisted him in getting her out of that

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Speaker 4: house while bleeding. That was his goal. This was targeted.

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Speaker 1: The Guthrie family has been notified about these images that

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Speaker 1: have been shared with the FBI, we are told, but

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Speaker 1: according to the family and law enforcement, so far, no

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Speaker 1: one recognizes who the person could be. Because there was

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Speaker 1: no recognition, no one could identify this guy. The FBI

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Speaker 1: posted the images and the videos on a public post

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Speaker 1: in the hope, in the prayer, someone could recognize the

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Speaker 1: perp or even the clothing, which absolutely could lead to

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Speaker 1: a break in the case. Repeat. According to sources the

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Speaker 1: Guthrie family, no one within the family could identify this perp,

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Speaker 1: and that is why the FBI chose to post the

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Speaker 1: images and videos publicly, hoping and praying that someone would

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Speaker 1: recognize not just the face, the gate, the clothing, but

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Speaker 1: the backpack, anything about them. Now, the backpack to me

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Speaker 1: is the most identifiable thing about it. Lee Newbecker, joining

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Speaker 1: US cybersecurity digital forensics expert the CEO of Enigma Forensics,

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Speaker 1: What can you tell us.

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Speaker 2: The pattern of the bottom of the shoe could be

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Speaker 2: validated against the size of the blocky stuffs on and

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Speaker 2: that would be the easiest and fastest way to know

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Speaker 2: what specific shoe and shoe size. With that information, it

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Speaker 2: might being an Amazon account. It could ping a retail

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Speaker 2: purchase somewhere. When you go to a shop and check

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Speaker 2: out at Home Depot or any other retail store, any

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Speaker 2: of the big boxes. They all have security cams and

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Speaker 2: they feed that data so the intelligence can perform searches

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Speaker 2: when things like this happen. But he has his foot

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Speaker 2: in the snow there when he bent over, and I wonder,

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Speaker 2: you know, did local police did they take pictures of

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Speaker 2: the sidewalk, because somewhere there's likely a print of.

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Speaker 1: Question for you, late Newbecker. What about purchases purchases of

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Speaker 1: these gloves, this backpack, this face mask, which is also unique,

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Speaker 1: How could it be trist.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's a database captured. How did someone buy Did

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Speaker 2: they buy an Amazon for every item? So the most

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Speaker 2: unique items like the gun, holster, the hat, the items

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Speaker 2: is one of your other guests that appear to be

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Speaker 2: new and not used, you know, correlating, I mean, the

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Speaker 2: shoes are the easiest thing. Plus a backpack probably be spotted.

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Speaker 2: Once you get two of those, you're going to start

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Speaker 2: to search. But presumably he had a cell phone on

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Speaker 2: him somewhere too, and if that was on, it might

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Speaker 2: be broadcasting his Bluetooth address, his Wi Fi address, and

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Speaker 2: the cell phone towers might ing you know, you know

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Speaker 2: who was in that area at the time. The ring

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Speaker 2: cam was taken.

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Speaker 6: Out crime stores with Nancy Gray.

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Speaker 1: So let me understand Lee Newbacker guys joining us CEO

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Speaker 1: in Enigma forensics, how these purchases can be trace and

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Speaker 1: another thing that should be easily traceable. Well, nothing is

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Speaker 1: easily traceable, but easier to trace. What about that hole

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Speaker 1: st Look at the whole store he's wearing. Is that

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Speaker 1: wrapped around his waist and then hanging down? Look at that?

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Speaker 1: How could something like that be trice late Newbecker.

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Speaker 2: Here's a way anyone could do it. You could your

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Speaker 2: staff could do it. You could take a screenshot of that.

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Speaker 2: You might have to edit to remove the glove. But

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Speaker 2: if you have the size and you can establish dimensions

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Speaker 2: by correlating to the brick size below, you can then

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Speaker 2: do a Google image search and you can find anything

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Speaker 2: that looks like it, and you might be able to

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Speaker 2: find the same item, but the shoes are going to

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Speaker 2: be the easiest one to match because the patterns on

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Speaker 2: the bottom of shoes are fairly unique. Once you get

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Speaker 2: the shoe, if you can correlate all the people in

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Speaker 2: the area, presumably this person was local, not necessarily, but

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Speaker 2: you got enough items there. If you get the backpack,

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Speaker 2: you get the glove us or the hat looks fairly distinctive.

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Speaker 2: The stitching around the eyes looks distinctive. You know, there's

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Speaker 2: a number of items there, but searching for those items

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Speaker 2: and finding a combination of them could like look right

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Speaker 2: there at the center of the eyes, that's a very

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Speaker 2: unique angle, and the stitching is fairly unique, so you know,

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Speaker 2: identify it.

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Speaker 1: Right, You're right, Newbecker. Is that a flashlight in his mouth?

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Speaker 1: But I did not see him put anything in his mouth?

359
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Speaker 1: Or is that some sort of reflective material? Let's look

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Speaker 1: at him walking up again. Yeah, you know what I

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Speaker 1: think you're hold on, hold on, back it up. Well, okay,

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Speaker 1: I see it right there too. I saw it. Then

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Speaker 1: it flashed on and off. I have a hat. I

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Speaker 1: have a skull cat that I wear to all of

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Speaker 1: my son's soccer games. And it has a flashlight built

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Speaker 1: it to the front of it. So if he looks

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Speaker 1: up in the stands he sees me, what is that.

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Speaker 1: I did not see him place a flashlight in his mouth,

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Speaker 1: but he could have done that, and he's using it

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Speaker 1: to try and arrange the foliage. But Cheryl, what do

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Speaker 1: you think it is?

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Speaker 4: It could be a grill. You know, something that you

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Speaker 4: place on your teeth that's gold or silver that maybe

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Speaker 4: even has a diamond. It looks like something is reflecting

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Speaker 4: off the light. If you look at the flowers, they're illuminated.

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Speaker 1: Guys, take a look at this. There is the backpack

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Speaker 1: shoulder strap close up with a reflective strip on it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: back to you. What were you saying, Lee Newbecker about

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Speaker 1: his eyes? I believe you and Chris were pointing out

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Speaker 1: the glare in his eyes. What about it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there were two shots. The last one that was

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Speaker 2: held should that he was looking at the side. It's

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Speaker 2: the camera. The next camera has a late to activates

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Speaker 2: at night. At least some of the models do. The

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Speaker 2: weight in his eyes when he's looking straight at the camera.

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Speaker 2: The prior version showed right in the center of his eyes.

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Speaker 2: It was light but it looks like he has something

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Speaker 2: in his mouth. There there's a device called a bite

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Speaker 2: a light. I sent a link to it. It's you

390
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Speaker 2: put the flashlight in your mouth. You can tuck it

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Speaker 2: inside your mouth. It's four bucks. You can bite with

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Speaker 2: your teeth to turn it on or turn it off.

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Speaker 2: And as you saw him lower his head, at one

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Speaker 2: point the light was on, but his shirt started to

395
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Speaker 2: light up as he lowered his head. So I'm pretty convinced.

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Speaker 2: But as he lowers his head, the light's going down.

397
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Speaker 2: Now up here, you'll notice the light will everything will

398
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Speaker 2: illuminate more. As he looks at the camera, you can

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Speaker 2: see the flashlight in his mouth. You can see his eyes.

400
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Speaker 2: On the left of the picture, you can see both

401
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 2: of his pupils. They're not lit up. It's lit up

402
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Speaker 2: right below his nose. And he's got something emanating light

403
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Speaker 2: coming from his mouth. You see that, Nancy, There you go.

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Speaker 1: You see the zipper? Yes, catch Lee, you're right, hold it,

405
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Speaker 1: hold it. Look look for there's the bright light to

406
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Speaker 1: the left. Right below it is a zipper. And if

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Speaker 1: you look up carefully, you do see his eyes. Oh

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Speaker 1: my stars, Okay, Lee Neebecker brilliant brilliant. Okay, so what

409
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Speaker 1: does that tell us? What have we learned? What about it?

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, what does this tell you?

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Speaker 4: Again?

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Speaker 1: He came prepared, Cheryl, You're right, So all of the

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Speaker 1: chasing our tails about this being random is bs. So

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Speaker 1: let's don't ever talk about that again. While we're looking

415
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Speaker 1: at this, at these images, can you imagine Missus Guthrie

416
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Speaker 1: waking up to this in her face that ski mask

417
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Speaker 1: that Okay, I want to talk about the bugle swabs

418
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Speaker 1: being taken right now, Dave mac who is getting swabbed.

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Speaker 3: We know that Missus Guthrie has a lot of help

420
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Speaker 3: around the house because she is living on her own.

421
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Speaker 3: She is mentally very you know, she's perfect there. But

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Speaker 3: I'm going to assume, based on an eighty four year

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Speaker 3: old woman living on her own with physical medical issues,

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Speaker 3: that there is help coming by to check on her.

425
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Speaker 3: One thing, we do know she has a pool person

426
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Speaker 3: that takes care of the swimming pool. We do know

427
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 3: she has landscape yarding yard people who do the gardening

428
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Speaker 3: and keep it trimmed up. We also know she has

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Speaker 3: a housekeeper that comes by and cleans inside the house.

430
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 3: So all of those people are considered just outside the

431
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 3: inner circle e employees, people who show up every week

432
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 3: on a regular basis and know that house and know

433
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,199
Speaker 3: all the inner workings of the house. Those are the

434
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 3: people that are being utile swabbed this week right now.

435
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 1: So in addition to the pool cleaner and the gardener

436
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 1: other quote hired help. So I can't assume do you

437
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 1: agree or disagreece you're almost that the family has already

438
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 1: submitted to bugle swabs.

439
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 4: I think so. I think a lot of people have

440
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,199
Speaker 4: voluntarily come forward. I don't think this is something that

441
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 4: anybody's going to give them any trouble with. They want

442
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 4: to clear this up. And again, if there was anybody

443
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 4: that was hesitant, that would be a clue this.

444
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: As we all are watching the clock, the purp stated,

445
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 1: if the ransom not is to be believed that he

446
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: and it is a male, likely a white male, would

447
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 1: return Missus Guthrie twelve hours after the money was received.

448
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 1: The money was received, we believe yesterday at five pm

449
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 1: Mountain time. That means the purp has failed in the

450
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: promise to deliver Missus Guthrie. And we've got to ask

451
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: ourselves what incentive is left to hand her over. Now

452
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 1: that we believe they've got the money, what about it, Kneebacker.

453
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 2: I think that they're gonna this bital light that he

454
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 2: appears to have in his mouth, which is separate from

455
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 2: the nest camera light. Because you can see here there's

456
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 2: a shadow under his chin. On the last shot, his

457
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 2: eyes are illuminated. He's looking directly at the camera, and

458
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 2: the white light in his eyes is centered and other

459
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 2: shots you see it comes at an angle. So there's

460
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 2: two light sources here. One light source is slightly.

461
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: Overhead, you're right, and so because.

462
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 2: Like this one there see the shadow under his chin.

463
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 2: There's several things to notice here. The center of his

464
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 2: peopil's he's centered up, looking directly at the nest camp.

465
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 2: He's got what appears to be a bit of light

466
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 2: in his mouth. You'll see when he's bending over he

467
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 2: turns on the flashlight to find the grass that he grabs.

468
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 2: But notice the shadow underneath his chin. Also, as he

469
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 2: puts his hand forth, notice the glove. You can see

470
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 2: there's a bright light or is coming from the front

471
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,719
Speaker 2: towards the camera. And as this progresses, you'll see when

472
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 2: he's got the camera blocked, you can see that there's

473
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 2: a light emitting from the camera. The fact that there's

474
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: a shadow under his chin tells you that the camera

475
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 2: is slightly higher than where his eyes are if that

476
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 2: causes the shadow to gass.

477
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 1: Does anyone detect a beard?

478
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 5: I think he has chin hair, Nancy, he's shed. In

479
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 5: that one photograph, you can see that he appears to

480
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 5: be a darker shade there underneath his lip line. That

481
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 5: could be indicative of facial hair. And then of course

482
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 5: the mustache potentially above that. One other thing I think

483
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 5: we're learning here is this gentleman is very, very comfortable

484
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 5: doing what he's doing here. As Cheryl pointed out earlier,

485
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 5: the fact that he's coming there, you know, with a

486
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 5: kill kit potentially you know, within that bag, and we

487
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 5: don't know that for sure, but that would be potentially logical.

488
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 5: And the fact that he came with a gun tells

489
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 5: us he is prepared to use deadly force whatever's necessary.

490
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 5: And so one of the things I'm concerned about is

491
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 5: we're not seeing any of that blood evidence in these

492
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 5: photographs here or on this video, because we know that blood.

493
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: Oh wouldn't the simple answer be that the blood was

494
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: dropped when she was leaving so they wouldn't be on

495
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: this video.

496
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 5: Yes, but remember the debris that was dropped on that porch.

497
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 5: Those photographs that we initially saw had the debris on

498
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 5: top of the blood droplets. That look at the upper

499
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 5: left hand corner the quadrant there where the debris is.

500
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 5: Notice that one piece is over the top of the

501
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 5: blood droplet. Okay, and those are ninety degree blood droplets,

502
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 5: meaning they were straight down, but you'll see the debris

503
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 5: is on top of them. So either he while bringing

504
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 5: her out, had his own debris and she was bleeding

505
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 5: and that would explain that, or you know, at some point,

506
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 5: you know, how does this How does that debris get

507
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 5: on top of the blood. That's the question I have.

508
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 5: And what's concerning is is she being carried out because

509
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 5: like the cherrol had mentioned, has she been bound you know,

510
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 5: or something to that effect. What's going on, you know,

511
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 5: because we know something happened inside that house where he

512
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 5: injured her and she was ready or he was ready,

513
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 5: you know, to do that evident of the fact that

514
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 5: he walked in with the items that he did.

515
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: Okay. I'm looking at the debris and what it is

516
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: is gravel around her door and some of it got

517
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 1: on top of the blood. I think one of the

518
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: reasons she's bleeding is because she's on blood dinner. And

519
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: I say that because if you look at the picture

520
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 1: of her sitting in a lumb's chair, which we've shown

521
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: over and over and over, you can see on her

522
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 1: left hand, you can see where she's had bleeding just

523
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: under the skin. Saw that on my dad on his hands,

524
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: in his arms from the elbow down, over and over

525
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: and over. That's what you get when you're on blood thinner,

526
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: and you may even just barely bump your hand on

527
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 1: something and that's what happens. So that tells me that

528
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: she's on Eloquess or some other type of blood thinner,

529
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: very common if you're on heart med's. It also keeps

530
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: you from having a stroke. So anything could have made

531
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: her start bleeding. On that front porch, I believe she's standing.

532
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: You have low velocity blood droplets there, and if you

533
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: look at the one furthest to the right, furthest to

534
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: the right, you see a radiation, you see a radius

535
00:32:54,520 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: of blood. She's standing still and she's dropping blood with blood.

536
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: It's a blood within blood pattern and it looks like

537
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: a nosebleed. Possibly where blood is dropping within blood. You

538
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: don't see that she's being carried. You don't see smears,

539
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: and I bet right there she needed assistant standing. And

540
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: the gravel is all around the front door. Someone went

541
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: to her left or she stepped into the gravel walking out.

542
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: That's how I read it. What about it, Cheryl McCollum, I.

543
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 4: See it a little different, Nancy. The blood drops, I agree,

544
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 4: But if you look at what you're calling the blood

545
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 4: drop and a blood drop, that's not what it looks

546
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 4: like to me. That looks like medium, the high velocity.

547
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 4: It's much further out than you would expect it to be.

548
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 4: It doesn't have a pooling with a drop and a drop.

549
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 4: If you look down toward the bottom, there is a

550
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 4: clear transfer print. Those are the kind of things again,

551
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 4: law enforcement should be captured, they should collected, they should

552
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 4: have focused on. I agree with you. There's no drag marks.

553
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 4: Nobody was pulled through that. But we know she has

554
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 4: trouble walking. We know she's on blood dinner, So you've

555
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 4: got to ask yourself, was she coughing? Was her handful

556
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 4: of breads she touched down? Those are the kind of

557
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 4: answers that I want to know about.

558
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm to me, a little more like more blood droplets.

559
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: But you're right, blood droplets of her just standing there

560
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: and continuing for blood to drop, likely out of her nose.

561
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 1: So either way, what Cheryl was saying is correct. These

562
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: patterns mean something, and the scene was left unsecured, people

563
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,760
Speaker 1: walked up and took pictures. Event that's where these pictures

564
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: came from. Totally unacceptable for the crime scene to have

565
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,760
Speaker 1: been cleared with the blood still there. For Pete's sake,

566
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 1: what else do we know at this hour, Dave.

567
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 3: Mac But we know, Nancy, is that as the investigation continues,

568
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 3: these pictures just being released. We know that the family

569
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 3: that Savannah Guthrie has seen the pictures and they are

570
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,359
Speaker 3: asking people to come forward. Look at the pictures, look

571
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 3: at the video. You know, if that's a loved one,

572
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 3: that's a friend, if that is somebody you know, you

573
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,800
Speaker 3: can tell by the way the person is walking before

574
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,359
Speaker 3: they put their head down, they have a certain gait.

575
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 3: Take a look at it. You can recognize the person

576
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:35,240
Speaker 3: actually knows when to slow down and stop a normal walk.

577
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 3: You see it right there. And I'm telling you, Nancy,

578
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:42,399
Speaker 3: if that's your husband, that's your boyfriend, you know who

579
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 3: that is, pick up the phone and call.

580
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 1: Okay, here's the question until Lee Nubecker joining a cybersecurity

581
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 1: digital forensic expert CEO Enigma Forensics. If they can pull

582
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: a video from the door cam, what about the other

583
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: cams like the one that was aimed down the driveway

584
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: toward the street. Is there any more footage they can release?

585
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: What do you think, Lee?

586
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 2: Potentially there might be neighbors nearby that might have captured

587
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 2: him getting out of a vehicle. I'd love to get

588
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 2: this raw video, Nancy, because there's things I can do

589
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 2: like color contrasting and other things that might reveal new

590
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 2: clues no one's talking about.

591
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: As we are all analyzing the most recent evidence, the

592
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,879
Speaker 1: most recent clues in the kidnapped the disappearance of eighty

593
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: four year old Nancy Guthrie, Let's don't go down the

594
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: evidentiary rabbit hole, because this isn't a show on dateline,

595
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: this isn't a made for TV movie. This is real.

596
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 7: Hi, there, everybody. I wanted to come on and just

597
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 7: share a few thoughts as we enter into another week

598
00:36:54,280 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 7: of this nightmare. I just want to say, first of all,

599
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 7: thank you so much. For all of the prayers and

600
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 7: the love that we have felt, my sister and brother

601
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 7: and I, and that our mom has felt, because we

602
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,919
Speaker 7: believe that somehow, in some ways, she is feeling these

603
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 7: prayers and that God is lifting her even in this

604
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 7: moment and in the darkest place, we believe our mom

605
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:30,879
Speaker 7: is still out there.

606
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:34,879
Speaker 1: We need your help.

607
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 7: Law enforcement is working tirelessly around the clock trying to

608
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 7: bring her home, trying to find her. She was taken

609
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,919
Speaker 7: and we don't know where, and we need your help.

610
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 7: So I'm coming on just to ask you, not just

611
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 7: for your prayers, but no matter where you are, even

612
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 7: if you're from Tucson, if you see anything, you hear anything,

613
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 7: if there's anything at all that seems strange to you

614
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 7: that you report to law enforcement. We are at an

615
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 7: hour of desperation and we need drop.

616
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,320
Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything about the case,

617
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 1: please call one eight hundred two two five five three

618
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: two four If you wish to remain anonymous five two

619
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: zero eight eight two seven four six three. We wait

620
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: as justice unfolds and our prayers go on for the

621
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: Guthrie family. Nancy Grace signing off, good night, friend,