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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds and national NPR PBS News Maris Paul

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Speaker 1: shows that Democrats have a fourteen point lead in the

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Speaker 1: generic ballot if the midterms were held today. We have

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Speaker 1: such a great show for you today. The New Republic's

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Speaker 1: Meredith Shiner joins us to talk about how everyday citizens

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Speaker 1: are fighting back against Ice. Then we'll talk to the

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Speaker 1: Bulwarks own Will Sommer about how MAGA infighting is weakening

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Speaker 1: the Trump administration.

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Speaker 2: But first the news.

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Speaker 3: Smile. You know what lives rent free in my head

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Speaker 3: every day is when Trump was on the stump and

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Speaker 3: COVID was surging and he screamed, we have to slow

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Speaker 3: it down about the testing. Today we got news that

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Speaker 3: the BLS is kidsley October jobs reports due to the

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Speaker 3: government shutdown. Head, I just feel the same energy somehow.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Trump has long been a fan of not counting numbers.

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Speaker 1: I think that's fair. Right.

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Speaker 3: We like to say is Nemesis is the count of

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Speaker 3: Sesame Street.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Well, no, he doesn't like that. Muslim math. This,

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Speaker 1: by the way, Muslim math is a throwback to Veep

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Speaker 1: when Jonah says we don't like Muslim math. Okay, I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying anything except that Jonah discovers that math comes

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Speaker 1: from the Islamic countries. I means, right, and so he

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Speaker 1: calls it Islamic math. And this is a follow up

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Speaker 1: to that Donald Trump doesn't like math. Look, I know

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Speaker 1: that everyone has forgotten about this, but Donald Trump did

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Speaker 1: fire the head of the Bureau of Labor and Statistics

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Speaker 1: because he did not like the numbers. So this makes

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Speaker 1: quite a lot of sense that he would not allow

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Speaker 1: this to be released because of the shutdown. But I

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Speaker 1: want to point out that even if you don't don't

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Speaker 1: know the math, you know, even if you don't read

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Speaker 1: the New York Times, even if you don't read the news,

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Speaker 1: it's still happening.

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Speaker 3: You can't stop it. But you know what he can control.

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Speaker 3: So I'm going to take you back to recent times

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Speaker 3: when Trump would threaten to fire Jerome Powell, and what

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Speaker 3: would happen? The stock market would crush? What did he

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Speaker 3: do again? Today?

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Speaker 1: Threatened to fire Jerome pal did the stock market crash?

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen this stock market.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's a little early to tell. Where a little

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Speaker 3: earlier the day. But let me give you the exact

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Speaker 3: quote of what you said. I'd love to fire his ass.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Jerome pal You know who hired his ass, Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: One more thought on Jerome Palll being the chairman of

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Speaker 1: the FED is like sort of the highest government job

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Speaker 1: for a fancy economist. Here it is, you're this fancy economist.

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Speaker 1: You have this job, You're the FED chair and you

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Speaker 1: have this like gangster president being like a what to

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Speaker 1: fire is ass?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: Like you have to wonder Jerome pal must be just

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Speaker 1: like what was I think thinking when I took this

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Speaker 1: fucking job? Because he can you know, if he quits,

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Speaker 1: it's extremely bad for the markets. He's got to sort

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Speaker 1: of keep riding this thing out. And he's almost done,

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Speaker 1: his appointments, almost done. But you have to think, like

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Speaker 1: this guy is so I mean, he is not. There's

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Speaker 1: no winning here, right, Like this is an actual confident

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Speaker 1: guy who could just have a normal job.

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Speaker 3: Truly, he did not read Rick Wilson's tomb. Everything Trump

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Speaker 3: touches dies and really consider his place in this. But

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Speaker 3: I want to get into an interesting trend we have

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Speaker 3: in congress. Censure. It's all the rage these days in

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Speaker 3: Congress and stripping people at covies. So particularly, we have

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Speaker 3: Representative Nancy Mace, who I think a lot of people

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Speaker 3: who've worked for her have called for a wellness check on.

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Speaker 1: Before we started recording, we were talking about this and

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Speaker 1: I said, oh, well, good for Nancy Mays for trying

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Speaker 1: to censure fellow Republican Corey Mills. She's ousting him from committees.

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Speaker 1: That's good, and you explained it in a way that

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Speaker 1: made a lot of sense. So I'm going to have

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Speaker 1: you be the explainer here and explain to us what's

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Speaker 1: really happening here.

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Speaker 3: So in the past for something like this, let's remember

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Speaker 3: Corey Mills has not been criminally charged, but he's had

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Speaker 3: two accusations and now a restraining order by past people

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Speaker 3: he was sexually involved with. And so what is happening

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Speaker 3: here is usually things like this in a Congress of

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Speaker 3: many years ago would be you'd get your ass thrown

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Speaker 3: out and potentially your seat would go up. But now

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Speaker 3: we've had to move the goalpost because the majority is

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Speaker 3: so slim on the GOP side, and so now it's

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Speaker 3: just a little censorship and get off of the committees.

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Speaker 3: Then Nancy mas can continue pretending her brand is protecting

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Speaker 3: women and things like that, while she bullis trans people

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Speaker 3: all day every day.

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Speaker 1: Right, So this is actually the kind of three dimensional

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Speaker 1: chests that we actually don't see Republicans do so much

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Speaker 1: because usually they're not that smart. You know, there's something

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Speaker 1: to be said politically for this because it's smart, which

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Speaker 1: is she is doing this so she looks like a

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Speaker 1: feminist fighter when in fact she's really just enabling more

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Speaker 1: of the usual from him.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we should say there was a vote about Schuey

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Speaker 3: Garcia's pretty shady move to get their chief of staff

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Speaker 3: to succeed them in Congress, and then as well one

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Speaker 3: that failed about the Virgin Islands Rep. Stacy Plaskett getting

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Speaker 3: texts from Jeffrey EPs while questioning people in Congress, which,

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Speaker 3: yike's bad stuff there, Stacy that we could do better

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Speaker 3: with the Democrats than this stuff.

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Speaker 1: Not good.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, let's also remember Nancy Mace also did

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Speaker 3: a really vile, vile centerre of Villain Omar in the

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Speaker 3: past two Yeah.

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Speaker 1: No, no, but we haven't seen Republicans do things that

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Speaker 1: seem like they're one thing but are actually something else.

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Speaker 1: So it is a little bit smart for them. I'm

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Speaker 1: just gonna come out and say it. They're not usually

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Speaker 1: smart about political stuff like this, So.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree with you, Somai. We have House Majority

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Speaker 3: Leader Mike Johnson. The House obviously passed yesterday as we

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Speaker 3: discussed the release of the Epstein five, and the Senate

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Speaker 3: says they're going to move fast on it.

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Speaker 1: They signed off on it last night.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and did you see though Mike Johnson's reaction.

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Speaker 1: Please play it? I did. In fact, it's my ring tone.

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Speaker 3: Now, Oh wow, that's that's such a throwback for you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, especially because I have never had the ringer on.

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Speaker 1: But please play it. Because he is shook.

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Speaker 2: The bill without adding amendments or changing it. I am.

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Speaker 3: I'm deeply disappointed in this outcome.

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Speaker 2: I think I'm told I've been at the state dinner.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I was just told to rushed it to the floor

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Speaker 2: and put it out there preemptively.

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Speaker 3: It needed amendments. I just spoke to President about that.

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Speaker 3: We'll see what happened.

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Speaker 2: So is he do you think he may be?

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Speaker 3: You know what you say, I'm not saying that. I'm

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Speaker 3: kind of sad that the crop on the video is

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Speaker 3: right above where his pets might be Pete.

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Speaker 1: You're so naughty. That is an incredible video. And what's

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Speaker 1: so interesting about it is this impetition past the House

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Speaker 1: four hundred and fifty whatever to one.

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Speaker 3: The only vote against it was Rep. Clay Higgins. And

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Speaker 3: my joke has been is that's because he represents the

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Speaker 3: district of the Carcosa in True Detective season one, and

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Speaker 3: we know what happened there.

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Speaker 1: This is like a too deep a cut, baby.

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Speaker 3: It's one of the most popular TV shows of the decade.

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Speaker 1: Come on, I know, but it's like you have to

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Speaker 1: you have to explain it. You're losing anyway. The point

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Speaker 1: here is that I think you are absolutely right, and

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Speaker 1: I think that to watch this, they are so unprepared

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Speaker 1: for these Epstein files, despite the fact that like they

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Speaker 1: knew this was coming, and they still are so unprepared.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of amazing. I have so I just am

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Speaker 1: so impressed that at so many points these guys have

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Speaker 1: they've had a chance to deal with it, and they

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Speaker 1: just have not been able to figure out how to.

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Speaker 1: Meredith Shiner is a contributing editor at The New Republic.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics, Meredith.

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Speaker 2: By Mollie. Thank you for having me back.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited to have you. So you are in Chicago,

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Speaker 1: which is right now sort of the center of the

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Speaker 1: ice Buckery, talk us through what's happening. It has like

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Speaker 1: kind of not been in the national spotlight as much

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Speaker 1: as it was before, but it doesn't mean it's not

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Speaker 1: still happening. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, just like all of the other indicators of

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Speaker 2: our democratic collapse, I think this is something that's persistent

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Speaker 2: and people are living with. And obviously this week Greg

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Speaker 2: Borbino and the Custom and Border Patrol gang ended up

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Speaker 2: descending onto Charlotte and we're seeing them use a similar

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Speaker 2: playbook there. And so one of the things that I've

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Speaker 2: been trying to do in my writing at The New

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Speaker 2: Republic is really give people a cent of what it's

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Speaker 2: like to live here in Chicago and the things that

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Speaker 2: are deeply distressing and terrorizing about being a person who

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Speaker 2: lives and engages in works and sends kids to school

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Speaker 2: in the neighborhood, but also some of the things that

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Speaker 2: can be a playbook for optimism and resistance. You know,

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Speaker 2: I think one of the main themes that I see

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Speaker 2: every day here and when I hear hear from people

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Speaker 2: in my circles you know, I think sometimes resistance can

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Speaker 2: feel really overwhelming, like there's this huge barrier to entry

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Speaker 2: that you have to be at protests, that you have

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Speaker 2: to be face to face with some of these ICE agents,

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Speaker 2: like we're seeing in some of the footage that did

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Speaker 2: get national attention at the Broadview Ice facility just outside

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Speaker 2: of Chicago, because those standoffs look so dramatic to both

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Speaker 2: the news editor's eye and I think to the normal eye.

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Speaker 2: And what life here has taught us and what I've

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Speaker 2: really tried to show in our writing is that living

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Speaker 2: in this kind of democratic distress, it doesn't have to

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Speaker 2: be or feel so dramatic to actually stand up for

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Speaker 2: your neighbors. And so some of the things that we're

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Speaker 2: seeing simply and some of the things that I wrote

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Speaker 2: about even in organizing around Halloween, is that people show

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Speaker 2: up at drop off and pick up time at elementary

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Speaker 2: schools just to be an extra set of eyes and ears.

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Speaker 2: You make sure that you carry a whistle in your

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Speaker 2: pocket because you want to make sure that anyone around

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Speaker 2: you might know that ICE is present.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 2: One of the sad truths and realities about this holistic

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Speaker 2: attack on our communities is that they're happening in every

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Speaker 2: community across the city. You know, someone was taken a

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Speaker 2: delivery app driver was taken from our independent grocery store

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Speaker 2: five blocks from our house, and that organized people around

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Speaker 2: the elementary school, which is two blocks from our house.

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Speaker 2: And so I think what people need to know is that,

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Speaker 2: you know, it feels like this randomized terror. It almost

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Speaker 2: feels like the way to describe it is living in

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Speaker 2: America that's marked by school shootings that you always sort

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Speaker 2: of have this fear that it could happen to you,

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Speaker 2: and where it happened could be anywhere, and so part

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Speaker 2: of that terror is the design. But the thing that

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Speaker 2: is hopeful is that everyday people are showing up and

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Speaker 2: they're showing their neighbors that they care, and they're intervening

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Speaker 2: in ways that are really excited and also changing the

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Speaker 2: curve on how people or if people are taken.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really interesting and important. I wonder if you

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Speaker 1: could talk a little bit about what people do to

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Speaker 1: draw attention to ice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I absolutely can do that. And I feel like

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Speaker 2: the thing is is that it was so grassroots, So

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Speaker 2: whistles are so important. I got a text message from

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Speaker 2: a friend from college who currently lives in Charlotte, and

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Speaker 2: that came in over the weekends, and one of the

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Speaker 2: things she says is like, well, what should I know

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Speaker 2: about Ice coming here? And I said, everyone needs a whistle, right,

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Speaker 2: So there were all of these whistle packing parties at

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Speaker 2: bars and parent groups and all of these different places

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Speaker 2: across the city where people pack the whistle with these

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Speaker 2: mini like leaflets that talked about what to do if

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Speaker 2: you see a federal agent trying to like execute a kidnapping,

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Speaker 2: and the whistle like devices that you should do so

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Speaker 2: like three short whistles if ICE is in the area,

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Speaker 2: and three protracted whistles if someone is actively being taken.

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Speaker 2: Things like that, Like it's easy to keep a whistle

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Speaker 2: with you, it's easy to remember some of those systems,

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Speaker 2: and it's about like becoming a bystander in your own life.

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Speaker 2: There were a lot of makeshift sort of signal group

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Speaker 2: chats and places where people in the neighborhood would share

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Speaker 2: sort of intelligence about these cars, what plates they were,

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Speaker 2: where they might be heading, so that way you can

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Speaker 2: keep an eye out. And I would say, there's something

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Speaker 2: in part that feels empowering about that that you have

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Speaker 2: this awareness that you feel like there's something that you

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Speaker 2: can do, but it also can feel really overwhelming because

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Speaker 2: all of these contexts within which you're doing your everyday life,

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Speaker 2: they're being invaded by people who are acting without regard

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Speaker 2: to the law, who are acting out of hate, who

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Speaker 2: are taking people who are just trying to live their lives.

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Speaker 2: To me, and one of the things that I wrote

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Speaker 2: about in one of my recent essays at the New

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Speaker 2: Public was the story of a sixteen year old girl

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Speaker 2: who has stage four cancer, who's undergoing chemotherapy, who is weak,

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Speaker 2: and who's struggling to survive, and her dad was taken

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Speaker 2: from a home depot parking lot, and the huge fight

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Speaker 2: and the amount of local news coverage and the amount

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Speaker 2: of organizing that helped raise awareness for this case so

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Speaker 2: her dad could be released so he could be with

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Speaker 2: her as he went through chemotherapy. The other week, a

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Speaker 2: daycare teacher from an infant room was taken at a

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Speaker 2: drop off time in front of other staff, in front

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Speaker 2: of toddlers, in front of infants and parents, and that

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Speaker 2: very night a thousand people congregated in this neighborhood to

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Speaker 2: try to protest so that she would be released, and

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Speaker 2: since then she has, and so I think you're seeing

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Speaker 2: this intersection of people caring and being engaged and also

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Speaker 2: the power of how being informed can really inspire us

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Speaker 2: to action. One of the things I've been talking about

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Speaker 2: recently also is how good local news coverage has been.

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Speaker 2: We have a lot of independent journalists here, but we

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Speaker 2: also have reporters from our major publications, whether it's the

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Speaker 2: Chicago Sun Times or the Tribune or the TV networks,

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Speaker 2: who have been covering this both as an international story

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Speaker 2: about what happens when the US government gets corrupted, but

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Speaker 2: also a local neighborhood story what happens when people are

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Speaker 2: taken from their neighborhoods, from their families, from their communities.

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Speaker 2: And I think that they've done a really nice job

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Speaker 2: in balancing how to humanize our neighbors while also creating

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Speaker 2: a sense of urgency and seriousness around what's happening. And

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Speaker 2: to me, as someone who has done a fair share

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Speaker 2: of criticism of national media, that's also been really instructive too,

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Speaker 2: because it turns out that when we give people accurate information,

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Speaker 2: when we give people information and news that both explains

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Speaker 2: the stakes of what's happening, but also the humans who

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Speaker 2: are involved people are aware and recognizing what's happening. They

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Speaker 2: don't like it, and to me like that accuracy and

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Speaker 2: impact in journalism is one of the reasons why when

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Speaker 2: you look back at No King's Day a month ago,

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Speaker 2: Chicago had one of the biggest turnouts because people are

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Speaker 2: seeing with their own eyes the impacts of this administration

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Speaker 2: and the coverage that they're consuming. The news that they're

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Speaker 2: consuming reflects that reality at the same time, and it's

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Speaker 2: helping to organize them around the truth in a way

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Speaker 2: that sometimes gets lost at the national level when either

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Speaker 2: people are checked out or not paying attention, or our

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Speaker 2: leaders aren't really speaking clearly to the stakes and the

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Speaker 2: impacts of what's happening. That was sort of the weird

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Speaker 2: tension and discord of living through this time where there

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Speaker 2: was so much escalation in Chicago about what the federal

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Speaker 2: agents were doing and how they were behaving, and this

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Speaker 2: shutdown where Democrats didn't want to talk about anything other

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Speaker 2: than these health subsidies, and then also kick on the

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Speaker 2: health subsidies.

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Speaker 1: I think that your governor has done it flun job,

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Speaker 1: and if he hasn't, you are living in the state,

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Speaker 1: So tell me if you think he hasn't. But my

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Speaker 1: sense is that he's done a really good job. But

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Speaker 1: I do think you're right that the shutdown, they staunchly

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Speaker 1: refused to talk about ice, probably because of polling, and

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Speaker 1: maybe that was a mistake. So tell me what you're

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Speaker 1: seeing and what you think.

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Speaker 2: I have not seen any polling that indicates that people

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Speaker 2: are supportive of federal agents terrorizing neighborhoods and taking people

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Speaker 2: from the streets right now.

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Speaker 1: Obviously, not nobody likes it, but I think Democrats felt

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Speaker 1: that Hell's Care was a big winner for them. I

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Speaker 1: don't agree with that.

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Speaker 2: I think that's how we got here, is what I'm

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Speaker 2: trying to say. And I think that part of how

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Speaker 2: we got here is that everyone was trying to be

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Speaker 2: cute at the margins over you know what a shutdown

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Speaker 2: could mean. I mean, I wrote specifically about Shatland politics

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Speaker 2: and this dynamic also at the New Republic last month.

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Speaker 2: And one of the things that I think drives this

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Speaker 2: is this absolute denial from the establishment Democrats and how

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Speaker 2: in Washington that we're not living in extraordinary times where

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Speaker 2: all of these rules don't apply because for Trump and

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Speaker 2: his allies and Republicans, no rules apply to them like,

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Speaker 2: these are people who on January sixth, twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 2: tried to overthrow the government, both violently by inspiring some

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Speaker 2: of their followers to attack the Capitol, but also politely

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Speaker 2: when many of them voted against certifying a free and

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Speaker 2: fair election. And everything that Democrats have shown with their

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Speaker 2: actions since then has tried to normalize what Republicans are doing.

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Speaker 2: I think on this hope that there will be some

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Speaker 2: sort of bounce back or return to like nineteen eighties Washington,

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Speaker 2: where bipartisanship can be something that is not just an

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Speaker 2: outcome but also just this glamorized ideal of what politics are,

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Speaker 2: and that's not the reality that the majority of people

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Speaker 2: live in outside of Washington, and so that I think

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Speaker 2: drives some of these shutdown politics. But at the end

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Speaker 2: of the day, like this, this is also about not

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Speaker 2: understanding from democratic leadership's perspectives, how to leverage media moments

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Speaker 2: that exist into the storytelling they need to do to

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Speaker 2: grow public understanding of the seriousness of our democratic collapse problem.

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Speaker 2: Right now, So we've dealt with shutdowns before. You know,

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Speaker 2: when I was a reporter covering Congress every day, there

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Speaker 2: were multiple shutdowns starting in twenty eleven when John Bayner

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Speaker 2: was trying to wrangle his House caucus infused with Tea

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Speaker 2: Party members when they couldn't even like figure out how

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Speaker 2: to raise the death ceiling, right, that happened, and then

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Speaker 2: twenty thirteen you with the Ted Cruz shutdown, And every

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Speaker 2: time these moments happened, there's sort of this feverish burst

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Speaker 2: of coverage from you know, the conversation makers, the DC

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Speaker 2: reporters who get to tell us what's happening and who

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Speaker 2: cover the palace intrigue of these standoffs. But what Democrats

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Speaker 2: refuse to engage with is understanding this both sides nature

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Speaker 2: of mainstream political journalism. They never know how to leverage

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Speaker 2: their side. They never understood that, like, in order to

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Speaker 2: make the shutdown happen and work to their advantage, they

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Speaker 2: needed to use that moment to actually like galvanize people

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Speaker 2: around the reality of this government. The idea, the basic

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Speaker 2: idea that we're not going to fund this government because

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Speaker 2: this government isn't legitimate was not anything that ever got

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Speaker 2: conveyed when you made it about healthcare subsidies and so

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Speaker 2: not only is this government not legitimate because they're terrorizing

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Speaker 2: everyday people and communities in a cities across this country.

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Speaker 2: But it's also not legitimate because this administration has treated

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Speaker 2: Congress like it's optional. They've treated authorizations and appropriations from

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Speaker 2: Congress as optional, as opposed to constitutionally mandate it. And

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Speaker 2: so part of not funding this government is making the

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Speaker 2: case for why this government shouldn't exist. And when Democrats

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Speaker 2: can't make that lead from point A to point B,

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Speaker 2: I think they're underselling the general public and what they're

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Speaker 2: capable of understanding, and they're trying to pull test this

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Speaker 2: into something that they think might be popular, but also

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Speaker 2: in the process sort of loses its meaning. Our elected

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Speaker 2: officials should be able to talk about more things at

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Speaker 2: once than they're currently showing that they're able to do.

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Speaker 2: And they also need to be able to doc connect

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Speaker 2: for the general public, because the media, as currently constituted,

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Speaker 2: feels like it's not their job to doc connect. And

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Speaker 2: so when Democrats refuse to connect all of these things together,

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Speaker 2: when they refuse to make this about something that's about

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Speaker 2: more than one person, more than Donald Trump, and instead

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Speaker 2: about a party that has invested decades of time, energy,

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Speaker 2: and unlimited special interest money in breaking the country, that's

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Speaker 2: when you're starting to see reactions to this cave from

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Speaker 2: Democrats of being like, are they actually complicit and not

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Speaker 2: just incompetent Because it's hard to square all of these

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Speaker 2: circles that we're seeing and that we're living.

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Speaker 1: I think it's always better to assume in competence over being,

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Speaker 1: and Bliss said.

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Speaker 2: I mean, also why not bull, I.

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Speaker 1: Think there's a level of incompetence there. I have had

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Speaker 1: elected officials yell at may for things I've said on television.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to say who, but I have had

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Speaker 1: that experience, and like, but before they start yelling at you,

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Speaker 1: they say, everything I'm about to tell you is off

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Speaker 1: the record. And I do think there is an inability

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Speaker 1: to think in a way that is that is how

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Speaker 1: we got here, among other things on the democratic side.

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Speaker 1: And there's also incompetence, But I don't necessarily think it's

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Speaker 1: corruption at large, or I mean, there certainly are elements

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Speaker 1: of corruption. I don't want to defend them.

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Speaker 2: Corruption is a strong word. I think that there is

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Speaker 2: this level of comfort with the status quo, and this

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Speaker 2: attachment to the status quo right, and the status who

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Speaker 2: is really dangerous now, whether it was trying to have

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Speaker 2: Jennifer Lopez sing at inauguration after January sixth, to show

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Speaker 2: normal and unity. There's this idea that the way it

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Speaker 2: feels from their bubbles, if you are comfortable going to

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Speaker 2: cocktails after work with people who are supposedly adversaries, that

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Speaker 2: that's a sign that the system is working, that that's

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Speaker 2: the ideal. Whereas I think they have not grappled fully

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Speaker 2: with the fact that there's no going back to where

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Speaker 2: we were, that anything that existed before is gone. You know,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to ascribe motives to that, right, I

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Speaker 2: don't necessarily think it's corruption, but there is a sense of, like,

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Speaker 2: when you continue to go along and try to like

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Speaker 2: play this role in this like overall feeder that you

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Speaker 2: feel like you're a player in, you lose the thread,

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Speaker 2: you lose the plot. You know, when you were talking

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Speaker 2: about hearing from politicians who at you after you say

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Speaker 2: something on television. I think about Senator Dick Durbin's response

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Speaker 2: to criticism over his vote to reopen the government, and

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Speaker 2: his whole response was, well, people just don't understand how

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Speaker 2: the Senate work. And I would argue people actually do

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Speaker 2: understand how it works, and they think that it's bad.

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Speaker 2: Like I think that some of those people thought they

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Speaker 2: were doing the right thing. I think when Tim King

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Speaker 2: goes out there and he writes his essay and his

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Speaker 2: whole thing is that we need to protect the filibuster,

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Speaker 2: like that is an expression of the status quo is

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Speaker 2: the most important, and that there's some normative return to

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Speaker 2: something that isn't this broken and I don't think without

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Speaker 2: accountability for how we got here and like an actual

439
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 2: just sort of transparent process where we think about all

440
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 2: of these things that went wrong so that we could

441
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,160
Speaker 2: build something new. We're not going to get something new,

442
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 2: and we're definitely not returning to the thing that's old.

443
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 2: And so that's where people's frustrations are coming from. It's

444
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,120
Speaker 2: not that they think that these people are necessarily aggressively

445
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,239
Speaker 2: or cartoonishly corrupt. We see that every day. Also, I

446
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 2: think it's about understanding that these systems that we're supposed

447
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 2: to undergird our democracy, that they're not actually aligned to

448
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 2: producing democratic outcomes. And so when you don't fight in

449
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 2: moments that present themselves, there's this idea that you're sort

450
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,359
Speaker 2: of complicit in promoting the status quo, and that the

451
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,360
Speaker 2: status quo is no longer in the public's interest, even

452
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 2: if it might be in the interests of those certain

453
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 2: elected officials.

454
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:30,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I just think it's not a world that

455
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 1: exists anymore. So that is for sure true that we

456
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 1: found ourselves in a world that doesn't exist anymore, and

457
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 1: we have at least fifty percent of their Democratic Party

458
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 1: believes that if they can sort of will their way

459
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 1: back to that, it's almost like a larger sense of

460
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 1: denial among the party.

461
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 4: Yes, and I think that that denial is growing, not

462
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 4: only a chasm between the Democratic Party and their base,

463
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 4: but I think just like the Democratic.

464
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 2: Party and the general public writ large. The anecdote I

465
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 2: like telling people is that at the beginning of ICE

466
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,439
Speaker 2: really escalating their presence in Chicago, I showed up to

467
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,679
Speaker 2: my son's Little Kickers like Toddler's soccer practice wearing an

468
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 2: abolish ICE shirt and Stix's yoga pants. Moms came up

469
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 2: to me and we're like, where did you get that shirt?

470
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,199
Speaker 2: I love your shirt, And then the next week a

471
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 2: mom showed up wearing it. I think it's hard to

472
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 2: properly convey how like abolishing some of these structures has

473
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 2: become a normative position that people who were previously apolitical

474
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 2: are getting really engaged in politics because they're seeing the

475
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 2: outcomes in front of their eyes, and they don't like it.

476
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 2: In Washington, when some of these elected officials, when some

477
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 2: of these old senators are like sitting and they're consuming

478
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 2: I guess we're calling it MS now now, and they're

479
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 2: mad when people gently push at them. They're missing the

480
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 2: whole picture. They're missing the idea that there are people

481
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 2: who are being radicalized right now because the government is

482
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 2: being used to break up families and to take kids

483
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 2: pairs as our kids themselves, and we are so aware

484
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 2: of it. And when they don't act like they're aware

485
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 2: of it, I think that they're sort of rendering themselves

486
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 2: useless and pointless in ways that they don't fully appreciate.

487
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 1: Meredith, I really really, really really appreciate this conversation, and

488
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: I feel like you need to be our Chicago correspondent,

489
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 1: because what is happening in Chicago is real. It's a

490
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 1: function of Trump's government, and it's what we're going to

491
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 1: see in twenty twenty six.

492
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 2: A lot of times when people look at what's something

493
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 2: happening in politics, and it feels so acute and important.

494
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 2: There's this sense that it comes out of nowhere, But

495
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 2: Republicans have made a long investment in bilifying Chicago, into

496
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 2: humanizing our residents. I grew up outside the city, and

497
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 2: when I used to travel and I said I was

498
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 2: from Chicago in the nineteen nineties, people like, oh, Michael Jordan, like,

499
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 2: that's what you know. And now I would say for

500
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,400
Speaker 2: the past decade, anywhere I would go, if I say

501
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 2: I was from Chicago or live in Chicago, people are like, oh,

502
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 2: is that the most violent place in the world. Do

503
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 2: you constantly feel like your life is in danger? Because

504
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 2: that is the image that Fox News has put into

505
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 2: people's minds, and it's born of the same racism and

506
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 2: xenophobia that's now being exercised by the people with the

507
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 2: most power at the top of our federal government. And

508
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 2: so I want people to think about the fact that

509
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 2: all of these things are related. And this was a

510
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 2: very long investment to make Chicago sort of this boogeyman

511
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 2: when that's not the Chicago that anyone who lives here

512
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 2: really experiences, and it's certainly not the Chicago people would

513
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 2: experience if they were so afraid but actually got on

514
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 2: a plane landed here and got to spend time in

515
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 2: our city. This is all of strategy, and it's part

516
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 2: of conservatives who are trying to otherise and oppress others,

517
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 2: and we should really call it for what it is.

518
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you all, thank you.

519
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: Molly well Somer is a reporter at The Bulwark and

520
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: the author of Trust the Plan. Welcome to Vast Politics School.

521
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 5: Thanks for having me talk.

522
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: Us through with the splintering of MAGA as it relates

523
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,959
Speaker 1: to Marjorie Taylor Green and Lauren Beolpert.

524
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

525
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 5: I mean, look, I think the Trump movement right now

526
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 5: is that a really kind of fractured moment. You know,

527
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 5: they're coming off of this difficult election cycle. They just

528
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 5: there's all this kind of negative stuff going on. There's

529
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 5: a lot of fighting over Charlie Kirks legacy, but the

530
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 5: biggest thing right now is Epstein. And so you have

531
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 5: someone this is kind of represented by Marjorie Taylor Green,

532
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 5: who is or was sort of the ultimate Trump fan.

533
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 5: I mean she was a qan On believer, which positions

534
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 5: Trump is like a messianic figure who's going to save

535
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 5: the whole world, save the world from child sex trafficking demons,

536
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 5: and now instead they're fighting each other. And so I

537
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 5: think what's going on here is that, you know, you

538
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 5: have this disappointment that Trump won't release the Epstein files.

539
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 5: You also have this kind of pervasive and growing sense

540
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 5: in Maga. I think that Trump isn't going to do

541
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 5: the populist stuff they wanted, that he's he's paling around

542
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 5: with rich people and tech billionaires and sort of throwing

543
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 5: the average Magat person under the bus.

544
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 2: You know.

545
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 5: Another issue for Margie Taylor Green obviously has been the

546
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 5: expiration of the Obamacare subsidy. So you're seeing this kind

547
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 5: of like Bannonite populist wing that she represents get a

548
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 5: little fed up with Trump.

549
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: Is it the financial or is it the political?

550
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 5: I think it's a couple things. I think on one hand,

551
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 5: I think she has kind of personal grievances against Trump.

552
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 5: You know, he reportedly told her don't run for Senate

553
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 5: in Georgia, don't run for governor, you're too crazy, essentially,

554
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 5: which was probably a pretty reasonable calculus to make. But

555
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 5: I think as a result, it's made her feel kind

556
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 5: of like she's stuck in this role, this kind of

557
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 5: backbencher role, and that she's not getting any respect from

558
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 5: from the White House. And then also I think there's

559
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 5: this she has this id ideology. I think she is

560
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 5: a hardcore MAGA person at heart, and she's seeing this

561
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 5: the movement kind of led astray by Trump, and I

562
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 5: think that's what is making her fed up.

563
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: I wonder if you could say more about that, because

564
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: that's not necessarily true for Lauren Beaufort or Nancy Mays, right, Yeah,

565
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: I mean.

566
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 5: I think each of these people is each of these

567
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 5: lawmakers is bringing sort of a uni thing to why

568
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 5: they backed the discharged petition. I mean, in Nancy Mace's case,

569
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 5: you know, she has claimed that she had this own

570
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 5: kind of a tortured situation as a sexual abuse victim.

571
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 5: I mean, there are a lot of lawsuits flying flying

572
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 5: around against it. The Daily the Daily Mail wrote an article.

573
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: You know, some boyfriend suing her.

574
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, her ex fiance and some of his friends. I

575
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 5: mean she he claims that she accused him of sexual assaw.

576
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 5: I mean, this was crazy. She did this whole speech

577
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 5: on the House floor alleging that her ex fiance and

578
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 5: his friends were involved in this like really sinister you know,

579
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 5: sexual abuse ring.

580
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 3: And because she's for.

581
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: It's worth mentioning just that if you say things on

582
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: the house floor, you're protected to a certain extent.

583
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 2: And that's what the Epstein survivors keep talking about, right exactly.

584
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 5: And so because she's saying it from the house floor,

585
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 5: they couldn't sue her over it. He says, on the

586
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 5: other hand, that you know, this was all kind of

587
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 5: a scheme as they were fighting over real estate that

588
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,479
Speaker 5: they had jointly owned. So that is what she's bringing

589
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 5: to the table. And also I think she I mean

590
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 5: to be frank, I don't think it's unfair to say.

591
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 5: Nancy Mayce is known for loving attention, so I think

592
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 5: that's probably what's bringing her to it. Lauren Bobert, I

593
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 5: think is a bit more of a cipher. She's a

594
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 5: bit of a of a renegade in a sort of

595
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 5: Marjorie Taylor Green Nancy mace Way. But it is a

596
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 5: little unclear I think why she backed the discharge petition.

597
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 5: I mean, certainly, I would say it. Certainly the White

598
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 5: House I think saw her as sort of the weakest link.

599
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 5: I mean, they were the ones they brought her into

600
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 5: the situation room.

601
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: That's what I was gonna say. Like she resisted what

602
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: was pretty scary, right, they brought her into the situation where.

603
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I mean, I think, you know, that's a

604
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 5: sign that Trump's grip on the party is weakening even

605
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 5: a little bit. You know, this is not a Thomas

606
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 5: Massey or like a John McCain figure in Lauren Bobert,

607
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 5: who's sort of a notorious maverick politically. But I think,

608
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 5: you know the fact that she's saying, well, you know,

609
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 5: maybe I want a little distance from Trump, maybe I

610
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 5: will back this petition, I think is really telling about

611
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 5: Maga's direction right now.

612
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 1: But this actually does feel like very different, this fracturing.

613
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: So you have really like you've chronicled Maga. So tell

614
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 1: us why you think this is different or why you don't.

615
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 5: I mean, I think this is sort of a unique

616
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 5: moment that Trump is facing. I mean, the Epstein thing

617
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 5: is the biggest issue he's facing that's going on right now.

618
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 5: And that's in part because it is in the world

619
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 5: of right wing media in the Trump administration, they had

620
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 5: acted like this was a really big thing. I mean,

621
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 5: just to list one example, we all remember when Pam Bondi,

622
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 5: you know, gave Jack the soobac and all these other

623
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 5: MAGA characters, the Binders. I mean, they were saying Epstein

624
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 5: files matter a lot, and so then suddenly to make

625
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 5: that U turn. I mean that sticks with the audience

626
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 5: that that Trump is courting. On the other hand, I

627
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 5: think he's facing some other issues too. I mean, they

628
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 5: had a crummy run in the gubernatorial races in Virginia

629
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 5: and New Jersey, and so I think that is making

630
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 5: some Republicans nervous about the midterms. There's a lot of

631
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 5: just general kind of malaise about affordability. And then also

632
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 5: I think that just the vibe in the MAGA the

633
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 5: Trump world is kind of off right now. There's a

634
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 5: lot of feuding. I think there's a lot of clashing

635
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 5: after Charlie Kirks's atter the nation over you know, his

636
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 5: legacy and these conspiracy theories Candace Owens is pushing. We

637
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 5: saw Tucker Carlson kind of welcoming Nick Fuentes into the tent,

638
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 5: and that's creating a lot of drama at places like

639
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 5: the Heritage Foundation. So I think the GOP is just

640
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 5: taking a lot of bad beats lately, and the Epstein

641
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 5: one is the biggest.

642
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 1: Can you talk about this, Tucker Carlson Nick Fuente is

643
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: thing because I actually think it's it has huge implications.

644
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: Even though it seems like it's a niche, it's actually not.

645
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, and you can tell because a lot

646
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 5: of really prominent people on the writer are taking this

647
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 5: very seriously. So Nick Fuente's white nationalist podcaster marched in Charlottesville,

648
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 5: really prominent voice essentially in the neo Nazi movement, and

649
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 5: he has been growing in popularity. He was kind of

650
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 5: Charlie Kirk's arch enemy, but after the assassination he's been

651
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 5: gaining a lot of profile himself. Tucker Carlson had clashed

652
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 5: with him before, but seems to have said, you know what,

653
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 5: I'm better off being friends with this guy or being

654
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,959
Speaker 5: neutral on him than fighting with him, because he has

655
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 5: so much energy behind him among young Republicans. And so

656
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 5: Tucker Carl's and had a very friendly interview with him,

657
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 5: and that angered a lot of more traditional Republicans because

658
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 5: they said, you know, maybe we don't invite the neo

659
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 5: Nazi into the tent to act like this is sort

660
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 5: of an appropriate faction within Trump Is. And then this

661
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 5: kind of echoed out in various ways, most prominently at

662
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,919
Speaker 5: the Heritage Foundation, which had sponsored Carlson's show, then put

663
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,760
Speaker 5: out this video saying, Hey, we are sticking with Tucker.

664
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 5: We think he's great, and was very critical of people

665
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 5: who were mad about the interview, and they kind of

666
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 5: got embroiled in this morass. A lot of people resigned.

667
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 5: So you can tell, basically it's a fight about both

668
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 5: Israel and anti Semitism more broadly. And is that going

669
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 5: to be okay or even respectable at all within the party?

670
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that seems like a very big deal for

671
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: any number of reasons. But I think the biggest of

672
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: which is that Israel has been such a big part

673
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 1: of Donald Trump's second inauguration, second run for office. You know,

674
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: he was I mean net Yahoo is like Trump's bestie.

675
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: And also so many people, you know, in the small

676
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: world that I live in, so many people you know,

677
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,800
Speaker 1: the pro Issio group has become like the biggest Trumpers.

678
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 1: So the idea that somehow the Republican Party could tip

679
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 1: into anti Semitism seems like it could really alienate the base.

680
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I think a

681
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,240
Speaker 5: lot of kind of more respectable or maybe more savvy

682
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 5: Republicans are kind of tearing their hair out over this

683
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 5: because they're saying, you know, we can't have a situation

684
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 5: where Nick Fuente is a guy who has said, among

685
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 5: other things, that Hitler is really cool. We can't have

686
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 5: this guy being seen as a guy we're okay with.

687
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 5: But at the same time, you're seeing Jadie Vance and

688
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 5: even Trump in a few days ago, say well, you know,

689
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 5: let's let's have this debate. We're not going to be

690
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 5: Matt at Tucker for hosting Nick Twente's for by the way,

691
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 5: it was not really a debate, was sort of a

692
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 5: hangout with Nickquente, right, that gave him a bigger platform.

693
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: Trump did, in fact, to hang out with Nickquentes himself

694
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 1: in mar A Lago, right, right. Isn't that that dinner

695
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:56,479
Speaker 1: with Kanye Yeah?

696
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 5: And so that is kind of what kind of the

697
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 5: funny aspect of all of this, this kind of agua

698
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 5: and this this rending of of garments over the Nickquente's thing,

699
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 5: is that Trump, like the king of the MAGA movement,

700
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 5: dined within several years ago. And so for them to

701
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 5: for people at Heritage to say, oh my gosh, I

702
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 5: can't believe we've now invited Nick Went's and you know

703
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 5: Trump kind of already did that. And the other thing

704
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 5: is that, you know a lot of this stuff is

705
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 5: already shot through with racism. I mean, Ben Shapiro has

706
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 5: been a big voice opposing Nick Fuentes. You know, Ben

707
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 5: Shapiro's Jewish, big supporter of Israel. On the other hand,

708
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,760
Speaker 5: Ben Shapiro's company ran a whole pardon Derek Chauvin campaign.

709
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 5: And so like the idea that like, you know, these

710
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 5: are the these are like the wow kis or like

711
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 5: the non racist members of the writing media, I think

712
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 5: is kind of crazy.

713
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, now let's talk about this piece he wrote, which

714
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 1: I think is really so interesting. You know, we don't

715
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 1: want to be conspiratorial, but it is odd that we

716
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: have not seen any answers to this. This is this

717
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:58,439
Speaker 1: story of the pipe bombs. So talk us through these

718
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: two pipe bombs found at around January sixth at the

719
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 1: RNC and the DNC, A mystery never solved. While the

720
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: Blaze thought they solved it, did they solve it?

721
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:14,240
Speaker 5: I don't think so. So this is this is Glenn Becksy.

722
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 5: You know, if I was in the FBI, wouldn't I

723
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 5: would not be putting cuffs on this person at the moment.

724
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,359
Speaker 5: So this is Glenn Beck's outfit, although he's since left,

725
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 5: and they the pipe bomber case is really important to

726
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 5: the right because they think because the suspect was never identified,

727
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 5: they think, you know, maybe it was an FBI plot

728
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 5: or a CIA plot, and that you know, it sort

729
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,919
Speaker 5: of ratcheted up tensions on the morning of January sixth,

730
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 5: because in their point of view, Capitol police kind of

731
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 5: caused the riot by not liking it when Trump supporters

732
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 5: tried to break into Congress, and so they're like, if

733
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 5: we could just find this right.

734
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 1: Bomber, it's a pretty big reach anyway, go on, yes.

735
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 5: Of course, and so The Blaze came out with this

736
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 5: story saying, you know, Glenn Beck, and the writer of

737
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 5: the story said, you know, this is going to be

738
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 5: like the biggest American political scandal in history. They were

739
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 5: so convinced. And they said, this former Capital Police officer,

740
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 5: this woman and they said her name, and she since

741
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 5: has joined the CIA. And we analyzed the gates, so

742
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 5: the way that the pipe bomber and the surveillance video

743
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 5: walked and the way that she walked when she was

744
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 5: playing a college soccer match, and they're nearly a match,

745
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 5: and so it's probably probable that she was the pipe bomber.

746
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 5: Now story has fallen apart almost instantly. I mean, it

747
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 5: was a huge hit on the right day said we

748
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 5: got it, we proved it. Members of Congress tweeted about it,

749
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 5: Anna Paulina Luna, and since then they've said, well maybe not.

750
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 5: And this Capitol Police officer has lawyered up, and I

751
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 5: think the Blaze has a big defamation case in its future.

752
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:36,399
Speaker 3: Wow.

753
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,320
Speaker 1: And it is And it's funny because like we've seen

754
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:44,399
Speaker 1: these mega media outlets try to solve crimes, and they've

755
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 1: really shown how important real reporting is.

756
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 5: It is crazy. I mean with all of these I

757
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 5: kind of approached it with an open mind and then well,

758
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 5: I don't know, maybe maybe you know, it is odd

759
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 5: that they still haven't caught the pipe bombing suspect, and

760
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 5: then you kind of poke it just a little bit

761
00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 5: and it does tend to fall apart.

762
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 1: Actually is a lot harder than you'd think. Yeah, no,

763
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: it is.

764
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, this thing, this pipeone thing, has

765
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 5: been very frustrating because for the right, because you know,

766
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 5: they were convinced the FBI was covering it up. Dan

767
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 5: Bongino said before it became deputy FBI director, he said,

768
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 5: they know who it is, you know, they just don't

769
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 5: want to reveal the name. And then he gets an

770
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 5: office and they had to put out new video just

771
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 5: a few weeks ago saying like, you know, okay, we

772
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 5: can't find this person. Can you help us, you know,

773
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 5: demonstrating that Chris Ray was not covering it up. He

774
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 5: just they couldn't find this person either.

775
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: How much of the stuff that we're seeing now, the

776
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: cash Fattel and Pambondi, the answers that they can't deliver

777
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: are really because there was no there there.

778
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 5: I mean I think a lot of it. I mean

779
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 5: I think we're seeing this over and over. I mean,

780
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 5: you know, this idea that you know, to take the

781
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 5: broadest point of view, I mean, you know, they were

782
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 5: convinced that there was this whole deep state plot against Trump. Okay,

783
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:52,799
Speaker 5: well now we're finally there. What are they doing. Well,

784
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 5: they're going to investigate komy on maybe lying to Congress,

785
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 5: and that looks like it's on the verge of getting

786
00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 5: thrown out. I mean, these are actually turning to be

787
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 5: very very shaky situations. And the thing I would direct

788
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 5: people to is this situation in Florida where the Grand

789
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 5: Jury is investigating all of these people in the government

790
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 5: who investigated Trump under the idea that it was one

791
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 5: giant conspiracy theory from the Steele dossier to the mar

792
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,839
Speaker 5: A Lago raid called they call it the Grand Conspiracy,

793
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 5: And so that is going to be kind of I

794
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 5: think their latest stab at, you know, arresting everyone they

795
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 5: don't like.

796
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like that's not going to work in

797
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: the way that they think it will. Do you think

798
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,479
Speaker 1: I want you to talk for just one more minute

799
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 1: about this, because like, now we have these Ebstein files.

800
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 1: You know quite a lot about this, as do I

801
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: Unfortunately for us, because we spent the last decade mired

802
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 1: in this. There are all these documents, there are videos,

803
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: there's this, there's that. What are you sort of watching?

804
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 1: How do you think they are going to handle it?

805
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: It's just hard for me to imagine, like the Trump

806
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: lets this stuff get out there.

807
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I think the reason that their Trump

808
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 5: has made this about faces in part because they probably

809
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 5: have another idea for how they can the documents from

810
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 5: coming out. On the other hand, you know, the legislation

811
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 5: says that the files have to come out within thirty

812
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 5: days of the legislation passing, I believe, And so now

813
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 5: it's law, and so there's gonna be a court battle

814
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 5: over it. For me, I think my big question is

815
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 5: what is going to go on with these documents that

816
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 5: mentioned Trump's name, because we have FBI whistleblowers who have

817
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 5: said they were told to flag those documents. Whenever Pambondi

818
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 5: and cash Hotel are in front of Congress, they stonewall

819
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,839
Speaker 5: about what happened to those documents. So I think it's

820
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 5: gonna be really hard to believe. Even if let's say

821
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,359
Speaker 5: today Trump just showed up with boxes and said, here

822
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 5: you go, here are the documents, It's gonna be hard

823
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 5: for people to know that that's all of the documents.

824
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,359
Speaker 1: And there's so much material, and we already know that

825
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 1: there's tens of thousands of videos and pages and this

826
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 1: and that and photographs. Will sommer, will you please come back?

827
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 2: Oh?

828
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: Always, no moment, Jesse Cannon.

829
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 3: So one of the things when you know, ever Republicans

830
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:58,399
Speaker 3: are in control of the House is they never show

831
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 3: up for work. We always see they do less days

832
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 3: and then we have this whole government shutdown where nothing

833
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 3: gets done. And now we have farmers who are basically

834
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 3: crying out saying like, these tariffs have destroyed our lives,

835
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 3: They're destroying the American economy, They're destroying our crops. Please

836
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 3: please do something. And I'll be shocked to let you know.

837
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 3: Nothing is getting fucking done by these assholes.

838
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know you shouldn't vote for these people because

839
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: they're terrible. I just want to tell you they're terrible

840
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: and they don't give a fuck about people. So here's

841
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 1: the deal. Farmers are getting hit on a number of

842
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: different sides. I know you're going to be shocked to

843
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 1: hear this by down Trump's policies. Did they have trouble

844
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: finding people to work for them? That's part of it.

845
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 1: They're being affected by the tariffs in all different kinds

846
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 1: of ways, right, Because you have these tariffs that are

847
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 1: making other countries not want to buy food from us,

848
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: so that's affecting them. Then they have these farm workers

849
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: who are being deported or who are being arrested, or

850
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 1: who are scared to come to work. At every point here,

851
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 1: these farmers are kind of getting fucked And a lot

852
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 1: of these people are the people who voted for Trump, right,

853
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: they're like Trump space. You know, these are red state people.

854
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: You know, they're sort of lower frequency voters, and they

855
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 1: are now feeling the wrath of Trump's incredibly stupid and

856
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 1: terrible policies. Shockingly, by the way, this keeps fucking happening.

857
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 1: And I know we will forever be covering this incredibly

858
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: stupid administration and the fallout from it, but it is,

859
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,280
Speaker 1: it is really something to just keep covering this, always

860
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: be covering the deaths of American democracy.

861
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 3: Every day. Another leopard eats another face.

862
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 1: Every day, and that's right. That's it for this episode

863
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and

864
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 1: Saturday to hear the best minds and politics make sense

865
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 1: of all this chaos. If you enjoy this podcast, please

866
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

867
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.