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Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of

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Speaker 1: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the

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Speaker 1: Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

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Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

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Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,

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Speaker 2: a woman wonders whether her ex husband is a narcissist

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Speaker 2: and why she is still struggling to move on seven

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Speaker 2: years after the divorce.

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Speaker 3: He said, So, I have four major stressors in my life.

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Speaker 3: My marriage, my health, my work, and that I'm a father.

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Speaker 3: He said. One of those things is on the chopping block,

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Speaker 3: and that's the marriage first.

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Speaker 1: A quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.

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Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is

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Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 1: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,

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Speaker 1: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may

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Speaker 1: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 1: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part

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Speaker 1: or in full, and we may edit it for length

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Speaker 1: and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All names have

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Speaker 1: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hey Laurie,

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Speaker 1: Hey guy.

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Speaker 2: So today we have a letter about being in a

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Speaker 2: relationship with a narcissist.

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Speaker 1: We get a lot of letters about relationships with narcissists.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, here's this one deotherapists. I am seven years out

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Speaker 2: of a marriage with either a narcissist or a man

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Speaker 2: with serious narcissistic tendencies. While I have known this intellectually

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Speaker 2: for a long time, I think that I've yet to

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Speaker 2: move past the confusion, pain and sadness of the situation.

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Speaker 2: I feel stuck. I seem to push people away who care,

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Speaker 2: I choose relationship that are not healthy for me, and

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Speaker 2: I feel a deep sense of loneliness and hopelessness.

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Speaker 3: Lately.

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Speaker 2: I have two children who are the lights of my life.

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Speaker 2: They are doing well despite the divorce, and that is

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Speaker 2: the most important thing to me. But I can feel

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Speaker 2: myself sinking deeper and deeper into isolation and despair. Part

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Speaker 2: of this is that my ex husband is remarrying soon.

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Speaker 2: I really love the woman he's marrying. She's wonderful, and

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Speaker 2: I have a lot of confusion around this. So much

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Speaker 2: of his courtship with her is identical to what mine

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Speaker 2: was like with him. This is bringing back memories and pain.

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Speaker 2: As I try to be supportive and do my own thing,

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Speaker 2: I start to wonder if the divorce was my fault

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Speaker 2: and if I imagined his cruelty. This makes me feel

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Speaker 2: all the more stuck. All I want now is to

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Speaker 2: move past all this and be more like the person

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Speaker 2: I was before I ever met him. But I don't

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Speaker 2: know how Audrey well.

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Speaker 1: I can see why she's confused, because when somebody acts

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Speaker 1: a certain way toward you, and then you see them

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Speaker 1: act towards somebody else in a way that you wish

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Speaker 1: they had acted toward you, you start to question what

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Speaker 1: is real what is imagined. And although we can't diagnose

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Speaker 1: someone that we haven't seen, so we don't really know

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Speaker 1: whether narcissism fits here, we do know that people who

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Speaker 1: do have narcissistic tendencies or have narcissistic personality disorder tend

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Speaker 1: to be incredibly charming in certain contexts and can be

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Speaker 1: incredibly cruel in others, and that generally causes so much

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Speaker 1: confusion when you're in a relationship with somebody like.

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Speaker 2: That, and when the situation is severally is removed, that's

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Speaker 2: where a memory can trick us a bit, and we

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Speaker 2: can tend to start remembering the highlights rather than the

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Speaker 2: low lights, and we can start to create a slightly

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Speaker 2: different picture in our head. Memory is very fallible in

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Speaker 2: that way, and so it's also possible that when she

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Speaker 2: sees him being so lovely with his new fiance, she's

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Speaker 2: starting to recollect the times you were so lovely with her,

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Speaker 2: and that makes a question that the other times where

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Speaker 2: he was not. So let's go talk to him and

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Speaker 2: find out.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists for My Heart Radio. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back after a short break.

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Speaker 2: I'm Lari Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is

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Speaker 2: Deo Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Hi, Audrey, Hi, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: We wanted to start by learning a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about the relationship with your ex husband. Can you tell

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about how you met and when

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Speaker 1: you started to see what you're calling these narcissistic tendencies.

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Speaker 3: Sure, my ex person I met when I was working

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Speaker 3: as a bartender at an event where he was a

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Speaker 3: graduate student, and we began our relationship with a lot

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Speaker 3: of phone calls. So we talked quite a bit over

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Speaker 3: the phone, just about all different things, family, career, interests,

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Speaker 3: and it was sort of a whirlwind quick relationship. You know,

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Speaker 3: we were suddenly just in the relationship. And the thing

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Speaker 3: that I can tell you about what I noticed was

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Speaker 3: that he had a way of just commanding everything. A

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Speaker 3: month into our relationship, he wanted me to meet all

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Speaker 3: of his fraternity brothers and their wives and significant others.

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Speaker 3: And this was going to take place at a wedding

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Speaker 3: that was out of town, which would mean I would

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Speaker 3: have to fly there, be there, and I was nervous.

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Speaker 3: I was coming off of a trip myself that I

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Speaker 3: was going on for photography, which is at the time

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Speaker 3: what I was doing. And I said, I really don't

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Speaker 3: know if I'm ready for that, because it's been a

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Speaker 3: short period of time that we've been dating. But he

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Speaker 3: just wouldn't have it, and he was so intense about

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Speaker 3: me meeting these people, and he persuaded me. He talked

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Speaker 3: me into it, and I went on this trip and

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Speaker 3: I ended up really liking everybody, and it was a

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Speaker 3: good trip. But I'll say that this characterized our relationship

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Speaker 3: going forward quite a lot. It was me being a

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Speaker 3: little unsure if I was ready for certain things, and

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Speaker 3: him sort of just convincing me with it. He was charming, smart,

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Speaker 3: and I would always say, okay, all right, I'll do

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Speaker 3: it your way. And you know, I felt kind of

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Speaker 3: lucky to have this person interested in me if he

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Speaker 3: had this way about him. He was very, very determined

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Speaker 3: in his career. He was incredibly focused. He was accomplished,

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Speaker 3: you know, at a young age, and he seemed to

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Speaker 3: know a lot about what he wanted at that particular

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Speaker 3: point in his life. And I was trying to establish

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Speaker 3: myself as an artist and photographer, so I was working

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Speaker 3: more than one job, including the bartending, to get to

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Speaker 3: that place. So for me, he just represented something I lacked,

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Speaker 3: and that is what drew me to him.

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Speaker 1: How old were you both at this time?

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Speaker 3: So I was twenty five and he was twenty seven,

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Speaker 3: almost twenty eight, so we're about three years apart.

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Speaker 2: So this all happened within the first month that you're

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Speaker 2: meeting all the fraternity friends, you're flying off for an event.

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Speaker 2: How quickly did things progress after that? And again, when

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Speaker 2: did you start to first see signs of what you're

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Speaker 2: characterizing as narcissism?

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Speaker 3: So things progressed fairly quickly. We got engaged after a year,

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Speaker 3: which seemed fairly quick. And I think the first indicator

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Speaker 3: for me that things were possibly a problem were when

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Speaker 3: he was beginning to interview for new jobs because he

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Speaker 3: was coming out of a master's program in business and

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Speaker 3: one of the possibilities was overseas. He was willing to

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Speaker 3: take me over there with him, which was really nice.

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Speaker 3: We flew overseas together while he went through this interview process.

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Speaker 3: But I expressed to him there I really wasn't sure

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Speaker 3: that I was ready to move away from my family

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Speaker 3: and overseas, and his reaction was really tough. He got

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Speaker 3: very angry. He didn't seem to understand. He thought that

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Speaker 3: this was a great opportunity for both of us, and

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Speaker 3: so it felt like, Okay, this is what he wants

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Speaker 3: to do, and I should be on board and again,

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Speaker 3: I think I was just overwhelmed by the attention. And

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Speaker 3: what I didn't express at the time was I'm very

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Speaker 3: close with my family. I live with my sister, I

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Speaker 3: had for five years. I really loved seeing them. I

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Speaker 3: saw my grandmother every week, I saw my parents. So

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Speaker 3: I wasn't sure if I was ready for that kind

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Speaker 3: of move, and I just felt drowned out by his

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Speaker 3: pushing and pushing. As it turned out, he did not

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Speaker 3: take that job, but he did take a job out

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Speaker 3: of state, and I did move out of state with him,

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Speaker 3: and that was incredibly difficult. So I'd say that things

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Speaker 3: began to get difficult when I left my home.

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Speaker 1: Once you moved and you realized that it was difficult,

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Speaker 1: did you talk to him about how difficult it was

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Speaker 1: for you?

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Speaker 3: I did when I came down there. I expressed nerves

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Speaker 3: in the beginning about how much work he'd be doing,

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Speaker 3: and I said, can you tell me roughly how long

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Speaker 3: your hours might be and if you feel like you

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Speaker 3: could possibly control them so that I'm not alone all

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Speaker 3: the time as I figure out what I'm going to do,

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Speaker 3: because right now I don't have anything. I'm leaving. You

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Speaker 3: know what I was doing, which was photography, and you know,

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Speaker 3: I had a life and I was struggling. I was

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Speaker 3: struggling with the fact that it was just very different

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Speaker 3: from home. I didn't know anybody, so I had a

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Speaker 3: real tough time. And I did make it known.

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Speaker 2: Did he take an interest in how your days were going?

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Speaker 2: Would he come home and say, well, how was your day?

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Speaker 2: How are you doing? Are you making friends? Would he

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Speaker 2: show an interest?

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Speaker 3: He did. He would ask and make suggestions, and he

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Speaker 3: would ask if there were any possible jobs that I

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Speaker 3: was looking into. And I did find a job at

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Speaker 3: an art gallery slash frame shop that I just found

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Speaker 3: it was a great way to pass the time. But

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Speaker 3: in the beginning, I just felt completely like a fish

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Speaker 3: out of water.

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Speaker 1: What did the two of you have in common? What

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Speaker 1: drew you to each other?

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Speaker 3: I mean an interest in art. He did love art,

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Speaker 3: even though he came from much more of a mathematical,

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Speaker 3: scientific world, and so he liked going and looking at museums.

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Speaker 3: I just really appreciated his focus, his dedication to work,

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Speaker 3: his education, because I had grown up in a family

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Speaker 3: where education was very important. I think learning was something

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Speaker 3: we had in common.

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Speaker 1: I guess the question that I'm really asking is emotionally

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Speaker 1: what connected the two of you.

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Speaker 3: Interestingly, I found emotionally that it was difficult first to connect.

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Speaker 3: He was very attentive, but I always felt that there

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Speaker 3: was just something slightly disconnected. And so I thought, well,

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Speaker 3: he shows so much adoration and attention in certain ways

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Speaker 3: that I told myself that would probably happen eventually, that

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Speaker 3: I'd feel that true sort of emotional connection. But it

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Speaker 3: was a challenge.

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Speaker 2: If I were to ask you at the time or

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Speaker 2: even now, why you Why did he choose you? What

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Speaker 2: would you say?

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Speaker 3: That's an interesting question. I would say he saw someone

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Speaker 3: who was also hardworking. He thought I also was intelligent.

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Speaker 3: You know that I had a closeness with my family,

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Speaker 3: as he expressed in his own family. So he seemed

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Speaker 3: to see things that were similar to him in that way.

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Speaker 3: Even though I was probably more introverted than him, that

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Speaker 3: didn't have a hard time interacting with his friends or

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Speaker 3: his family. You know, that was always pretty easy. I

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Speaker 3: think he thought we could do things together, we could

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Speaker 3: compliment each other.

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Speaker 2: It's my guess, getting back to the signs of what

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Speaker 2: you're calling narcissism, it tell us some of those highlights

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Speaker 2: or low lights if you will about some of those

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Speaker 2: the big incidents that really shook you and made you

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Speaker 2: feel there's something definitely wrong here.

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Speaker 3: So I think that it came a little later when

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Speaker 3: I was getting a little antsy because I did want

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Speaker 3: to go back to school, and when I brought this up,

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Speaker 3: there was not a whole lot of support. Long story

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Speaker 3: short is I was not able to do that anyway

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Speaker 3: because we got pregnant. So enter baby number one. And

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Speaker 3: I think this is where those things started to appear

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Speaker 3: for me. During the pregnancy. I really was terrified those

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Speaker 3: first three months, and there was really no empathy there.

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Speaker 3: There was anger that I wasn't more excited.

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Speaker 1: Was the pregnancy something that you both planned?

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Speaker 3: No? No, turned out to be a great thing, but

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Speaker 3: we just didn't plan on getting pregnant at that time.

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Speaker 3: So it was one of those fun ones where the

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Speaker 3: pill didn't work. In that particular instance, I was pregnant

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Speaker 3: and so it was out of the blue.

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Speaker 1: And had the two of you talked about a timeline

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Speaker 1: for having kids, if you wanted kids, when you might

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Speaker 1: have kids.

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Speaker 3: I always said that I would feel much more comfortable

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Speaker 3: to begin a family when I had finally established what

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Speaker 3: I was going to do. And gotten my education, and

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Speaker 3: that was a large part of why I was so

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Speaker 3: nervous when I did get pregnant. It felt like the

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Speaker 3: timing was really bad.

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Speaker 1: When you had had the conversation before the unexpected pregnancy.

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Speaker 1: Did he seem to be okay with waiting. It sounds

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Speaker 1: like you were still on birth control, so he must

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Speaker 1: have been on board with that plan.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he was on board, but that was a difficult

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Speaker 3: subject for us. Once I was pregnant, it was sort

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Speaker 3: of like, definitely changed the plan. I didn't go to

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Speaker 3: that program, and you know, I spent the first few

259
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Speaker 3: months again being really unsure about the pregnancy. I was

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Speaker 3: very upset because I wasn't sure I wanted to go

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Speaker 3: through with it, and it was a real issue with us,

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Speaker 3: and he was very angry angry about that. But this

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Speaker 3: was really tough for me, really back and forth until

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Speaker 3: about the second trimester, and suddenly, and this is why

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Speaker 3: I wonder if it was even hormonal changes, I felt okay,

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Speaker 3: I accepted it, and I was happy and our daughter

267
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Speaker 3: was very healthy and great. So with a conservative narcissism,

268
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Speaker 3: I just felt like there was so little empathy around

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Speaker 3: that feeling, and it was more anger but it came

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Speaker 3: out more in the expectation that I was going to

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Speaker 3: be home with the baby when he worked. And little

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Speaker 3: things started occurring, like I did find a program that

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Speaker 3: I could do where we lived. It was a night program, actually,

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Speaker 3: and I worked very hard to create a schedule that

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Speaker 3: allowed for his work. He would say, yes, I'll make

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Speaker 3: a commitment to being home by a certain time on

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Speaker 3: these nights, and then he wouldn't show up. And when

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Speaker 3: I confronted him about that, he would say, well, you

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Speaker 3: didn't say that, or we didn't agree to that. I

280
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Speaker 3: didn't say I would get home at this time where

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Speaker 3: it's not that important. It's more important that I'm doing

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Speaker 3: what I'm doing. So those were the types of things

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Speaker 3: that were beginning to happen. I was beginning to feel

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Speaker 3: like I couldn't trust that he would be there when

285
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Speaker 3: I needed him to be so I could do the

286
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Speaker 3: things I wanted while simultaneously taking care of this baby.

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Speaker 2: And how would you respond to him when he's saying

288
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Speaker 2: to you, it's more important that I do what I'm

289
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Speaker 2: doing for the extra hour than you get to follow

290
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Speaker 2: your dreams. What was your response to that?

291
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Speaker 3: It started more subtle and where I would just sort

292
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Speaker 3: of get quiet, and then after the third or fourth incident,

293
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Speaker 3: I started getting angry. You know, we would have a

294
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Speaker 3: bit of a yelling match over it. There would be

295
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Speaker 3: the Okay, I will be here on time next time,

296
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Speaker 3: and the cycle would sort of begin again where he

297
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Speaker 3: would own up to that and you would show up,

298
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Speaker 3: and then we would have another episode where, you know,

299
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Speaker 3: it was the lateness again in me getting angry.

300
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Speaker 1: You know, sometimes when people say they're going to do

301
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Speaker 1: something and then they don't do it, and then people

302
00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,280
Speaker 1: are really confused by that because it's like you said

303
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Speaker 1: you were going to do this and you're not here.

304
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Speaker 1: The reason they don't do it is because they actually

305
00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:26,679
Speaker 1: don't want to. And it sounds like the two of

306
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:33,000
Speaker 1: you had some really fundamental differences around what you wanted

307
00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,159
Speaker 1: the day to day of your marriage to look like.

308
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Speaker 1: He was very clear from the beginning he wanted to

309
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Speaker 1: move forward very quickly. He wanted to get married, he

310
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Speaker 1: wanted to have a family, he wanted to focus on

311
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Speaker 1: his career. He was very ambitious, and maybe you wanted

312
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Speaker 1: someone who was going to go at a different pace,

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Speaker 1: who was going to have more of an egality marriage

314
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Speaker 1: in terms of the childcare and career and all of

315
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Speaker 1: those things. But I don't hear that you had a

316
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Speaker 1: direct conversation of where are you, what are you wanting?

317
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Speaker 1: Where am I and what am I wanting? What prevented

318
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Speaker 1: you from having those more direct conversations with him?

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Speaker 3: I think I was a little intimidated. I think he

320
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:29,439
Speaker 3: had a very intense presence. I didn't like to make

321
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Speaker 3: him angry, but I'm also not very confrontational. The second

322
00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:39,760
Speaker 3: thing is that he was working so hard and it

323
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Speaker 3: was a hard job that oftentimes our conversations would begin

324
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Speaker 3: with his difficulties, and I found there was not as

325
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,080
Speaker 3: much room for mine. I always felt a little bit

326
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Speaker 3: nervous to approach him with whatever was going on in

327
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Speaker 3: my end. And then of course when I did it

328
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Speaker 3: is you know, already sort of perceived like, well, you

329
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Speaker 3: just don't have it as hard as I do. You

330
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Speaker 3: just don't understand You're not the one who has to

331
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Speaker 3: make the money. Here, you're doing school, which is kind

332
00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,040
Speaker 3: of a luxury. I think I would end up feeling like,

333
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,600
Speaker 3: maybe I'm being a bit selfish. I would question whether

334
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:21,320
Speaker 3: I was right to fight for these things that I wanted,

335
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,200
Speaker 3: you know, And I think that really became a big

336
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,679
Speaker 3: issue over time. Is that inner battle of am I

337
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,280
Speaker 3: being selfish? Or is it okay to want these things?

338
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,400
Speaker 2: And were you talking to your sister or your parents

339
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:37,680
Speaker 2: or friends to get some more balanced outside perspective about

340
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:42,040
Speaker 2: whether he were being selfish or whether his demands were unreasonable.

341
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Speaker 3: I was, and in particular my sisters. I have two,

342
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,560
Speaker 3: and I'm very close to both of them. My younger

343
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,040
Speaker 3: sister was not a fan of him from the get go.

344
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,160
Speaker 3: She found him to be a bit condescending and difficult

345
00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:01,000
Speaker 3: from the start, so her take was always that he

346
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,199
Speaker 3: was being selfish, so I sort of took that with

347
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,720
Speaker 3: a grain of salt. My older sister was a bit

348
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,520
Speaker 3: more understanding. She would hear both sides, but she also

349
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,359
Speaker 3: validated that I had made sacrifices for him. She said,

350
00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,080
Speaker 3: you moved to a new city, you left what you

351
00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,360
Speaker 3: were doing sort of in the middle of it, and

352
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,119
Speaker 3: it's okay to want to do something for yourself.

353
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Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about your relationships

354
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:32,560
Speaker 1: before this relationship, where you worried about bringing things up

355
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:34,200
Speaker 1: in other relationships.

356
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:39,199
Speaker 3: So I had two serious relationships before I met Derek.

357
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:44,000
Speaker 3: They were different in the sense that we were on

358
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:50,879
Speaker 3: equal terms. The first one ended because this person moved

359
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:56,159
Speaker 3: across the country and wanted me to go and I

360
00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,920
Speaker 3: said no. So interestingly, with that situation, I was able

361
00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:02,720
Speaker 3: to say, you know, this isn't the right time. You know,

362
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,919
Speaker 3: I think I was twenty one and I knew it

363
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:10,879
Speaker 3: wasn't the right thing. The second relationship ended because I

364
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:15,120
Speaker 3: felt like the person I was seeing had addiction issues

365
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,919
Speaker 3: and I wanted to get away from that. I just

366
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:20,680
Speaker 3: saw that happening.

367
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,399
Speaker 1: Did you talk about the addiction issues or did you

368
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:25,800
Speaker 1: communicate openly in that relationship?

369
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,439
Speaker 3: I did. It was an issue, and I was pretty

370
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,640
Speaker 3: adamant about the fact that I just couldn't see pursuing

371
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,760
Speaker 3: a future with that in the in the mix, and

372
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:38,480
Speaker 3: he at the time just did not see it as

373
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Speaker 3: a problem.

374
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:43,280
Speaker 2: So in both those earlier relationships, you were able to

375
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:48,680
Speaker 2: assert your needs, to stand your ground, to not lose

376
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 2: yourself within the relationship, but to really hold on to

377
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 2: what you want and what your needs on what your

378
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 2: perspective is. And then with Derek, you did have trouble

379
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 2: advocating for your needs. What do you think that was

380
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,639
Speaker 2: about for you? That you went from two relationships in

381
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,159
Speaker 2: which he was so clear and centive to one in

382
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 2: which you were of center. Almost from the beginning.

383
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,960
Speaker 3: The difference between Derek and those two folks was that

384
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:21,280
Speaker 3: Derek was an overachiever. He showered me with more attention

385
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,960
Speaker 3: and intensity in those first months than those other relationships,

386
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 3: and I kind of ate it up. I thought, Wow,

387
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:32,240
Speaker 3: this guy is so bright and so interesting, and he

388
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,680
Speaker 3: had this way of making you feel like you must

389
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 3: be pretty amazing if you're in his club, because he

390
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 3: was also putting people down around us, and I kind

391
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 3: of knew that there was a red flag, but I

392
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,919
Speaker 3: was seduced. I was seduced by this notion like everyone

393
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,360
Speaker 3: else is kind of bad and not good at this

394
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 3: and that and the other thing, but I must be

395
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,919
Speaker 3: great because he approves of me. And I admit that

396
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 3: I think that his approval became almost like a drug

397
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 3: in a weird way. And when he would take it away,

398
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 3: I wanted it back.

399
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 1: How did he take it away?

400
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 3: He could withdraw by not talking, And I remember he

401
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 3: went on a business trip and we didn't speak the

402
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 3: entire week. He would not respond to my calls. We

403
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 3: had an argument before he left, and I was home

404
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 3: with our two daughters at that time, who were very young,

405
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 3: and he just not for a week. He did not respond.

406
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,439
Speaker 1: What happened when he got back and you had been

407
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 1: alone with the girls for a whole week and your

408
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 1: husband didn't respond to you.

409
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 3: It was late at night, so the girls were in

410
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 3: bed when he came in. My heart was racing. I

411
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 3: was waiting, you know, I was already worked up, and

412
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 3: I started yelling about it immediately. It wasn't a controlled conversation.

413
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,360
Speaker 3: It escalated to the point of us having a screaming

414
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 3: match again. It resulted in him leaving that night again.

415
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 3: He had just got back in this trip, turned around

416
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 3: out the door. Those times were just awful.

417
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 1: When he came back after leaving again, how did you

418
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 1: guys reconnect?

419
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 3: This is the kind of strange thing that was going on,

420
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 3: And I'll put us a little bit forward in the marriage.

421
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 3: I had pretty much given up my dreams of being

422
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 3: a travel photographer, which is what I was sort of

423
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,640
Speaker 3: working towards. So he said, well, let's start this company.

424
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 3: So the bizarre thing that began to happen with us

425
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 3: is that our work relationship got so compartmentalized that we

426
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 3: could flip from these emotional angry battles, writing to work

427
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 3: mode seamlessly and back. So to answer your question, when

428
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 3: he came back after being away, it was like, oh,

429
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 3: by the way, did you get that paper done? Or

430
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 3: did you get that logo? Or did you do this?

431
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 3: And I'd switched right out of the screaming mode, and

432
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 3: but oh yeah, yeah, yeah I did, and then we

433
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 3: could go right back into screaming mode. So we were

434
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 3: in this very bizarre, compartmentalized place, almost pretending like those

435
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 3: things didn't happen, and sort of just moving through our days,

436
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 3: getting further and further apart in our emotional connection, but

437
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 3: maintaining this work connection and this parenting connection.

438
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: What was going on with your sex life during this time?

439
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 3: It was getting pretty non existent, and I know that

440
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 3: that was upsetting him, but I was feeling so disconnected

441
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 3: that I didn't feel like going there.

442
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 2: Were you talking about it?

443
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 3: We were arguing about it, and we really had a

444
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 3: hard time communicating anytime we were upset. We even went

445
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 3: to therapy. We went to therapy together to try and

446
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 3: work that out, but the therapist would suggest that he

447
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 3: a lot specific time during the day for us, be

448
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 3: it at the end of the workday, when the kids

449
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 3: were in bed, no computers, no work, it would be

450
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,120
Speaker 3: just us time. It just didn't happen. And he would say,

451
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,679
Speaker 3: but I can't. I can't because I'm the owner and

452
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,479
Speaker 3: boss of this place and it's just not something that

453
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 3: I can do. And it reached a point where he

454
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 3: stopped coming to the therapy sessions. It was just me,

455
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 3: And after the sixth therapy session alone, the therapist wisely said,

456
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 3: you know, we can't do this. It's not couple's therapy anymore.

457
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: How did the marriage end?

458
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 3: So we had a couple that we were very good

459
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 3: friends with as actually one of his fraternity brothers and

460
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 3: his wife, and I just went to him and I said,

461
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 3: you know, I just don't know what I'm not seeing

462
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 3: if we're in huge trouble. And what this person told

463
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 3: me is that he had had a talk with Derek

464
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 3: and that Derek very clearly said with my company, my

465
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 3: being a father, and my health problems. He had developed

466
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 3: some health problems. He had developed hypertension and severe sleep

467
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 3: apnea at that point, which will probably work related even

468
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 3: some eyesight issues from computer usage. And he said, so

469
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 3: I have four major stressors in my life, My marriage,

470
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 3: my health, my work and that I'm a father. He said,

471
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 3: one of those things is on the chopping block, and

472
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 3: that's the marriage.

473
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 2: How did you feel when you heard that from the friend?

474
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:26,919
Speaker 3: I was devastated.

475
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 1: And you heard this through his friend. This had never

476
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: been brought up to you. The two of you had

477
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 1: not discussed divorce.

478
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 3: Not at that point. I did bring it up after

479
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,679
Speaker 3: I heard that, and I asked him, I said, is

480
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 3: this how you feel? He said yeah. He said I

481
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 3: can't do this. He said, you know, I can't not

482
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 3: be a father, I can't not be the president and

483
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 3: owner of this company, and I can't not take care

484
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 3: of my health. That leaves one thing, and so he

485
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 3: echoed the exact thing.

486
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 1: So he tells you that the marriage is the one

487
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: thing that has to go. And was that the moment

488
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: that the marriage ended? What did the two of you

489
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: do with that?

490
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 3: We sort of lingered in this limbo place for an

491
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 3: additional two years.

492
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 2: Except it wasn't you too who lingered in the limbo.

493
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 2: It's you who lingered.

494
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think you're right.

495
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: You just went back to your normal routine and never

496
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 1: talked about it again.

497
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 3: You know, we sort of did, because what would happen

498
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 3: was we'd get into these fights and we'd sort of

499
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 3: sleep in different rooms, and then we'd get up and

500
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 3: go and do the work thing and do the kid thing,

501
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 3: and we'd kind of put it away as though it

502
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 3: wasn't there.

503
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 2: Oh do So you go to the friend to get

504
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: advice about how to do something with the marriage, how

505
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 2: to improve it, and what you hear is kind of

506
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 2: you're on the chopping block. And then you go back

507
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 2: to Derek and he confirms, yes, you're on the chopping block.

508
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 2: Now when you describe what happens thereafter, keep saying, well,

509
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 2: we were in limbo. We just went back to normal,

510
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 2: But you're not in the same boat there. You were

511
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 2: the one that was trying to save the marriage. He's

512
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 2: the one that's biding his time to when it would

513
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 2: be suitable for him, yeah, to end it. And I

514
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 2: guess I'm wondering what was going on with you during

515
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 2: that time? Were you thinking about, Okay, if this ends,

516
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 2: what do I need to do to set myself up

517
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 2: to protect myself, to be able to rebuild my life?

518
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 2: How much were you thinking about yourself and trying to

519
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 2: plan and deal with this eventuality that seemed to be coming.

520
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 3: I think I was still very much wanting for it

521
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 3: to just go away. It's crazy as it sounds, I

522
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 3: still wanted his approval. I think emotionally I was thinking, well,

523
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 3: we can work this out. Because I came from a

524
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 3: family where my parents were together and still are and

525
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 3: had some difficult periods but they made it through. It

526
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 3: was such a bizarre sort of denial. But I also

527
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 3: don't think I had a very high self esteem at

528
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 3: this point. I think by this point I was kind

529
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 3: of terrified to lose them because it was my entire

530
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 3: life at this point. This is my work, these are

531
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 3: our friends, my children. It didn't seem possible that all

532
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 3: that could just stop. When it did, just threw me

533
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 3: into a complete sort of crisis, you know, because the

534
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 3: friends chose him, And even though I continued to stay

535
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 3: with the company after the marriage ended and he moved out,

536
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 3: I think I had a hard time processing the whole thing.

537
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 3: I just didn't know what hit me.

538
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,479
Speaker 1: Can you tell us what it was like when the

539
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: divorce papers arrived?

540
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 3: When you were served, I remember exactly, which probably says something.

541
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 3: He had just had surgery for a problem with his eyes,

542
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 3: and I had brought him to the surgery and I

543
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 3: was taking care of him after and I walked to

544
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 3: the mailbox while he was sleeping and resting on the couch,

545
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 3: and I opened it up and it was like a

546
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 3: gut punch. I mean, it was like the ultimate. I

547
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 3: just felt like my stomach just felt like whoa, there's wow,

548
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 3: like the roller coaster. And I didn't walk back to

549
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 3: the house. The girls were playing. They were there, they

550
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 3: were safe, and he was on the couch sort of

551
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 3: watching them. So I took a walk to a neighbor's

552
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 3: house real quick before I went home, and I showed her,

553
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 3: you know, and she's like wow, And you know, I

554
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 3: just took a second to try and absorb the whole thing,

555
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 3: because number one, it was a shock to get it,

556
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 3: but number two, it was a horrible agreement. It was

557
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 3: completely one sided. It kind of made me out to

558
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 3: be someone who didn't deserve any portion of the life.

559
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 3: And I was thinking, wow, I mean, it's like in

560
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 3: that agreement he was saying that I got no part

561
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 3: of the company, I give up one rights.

562
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: So you're taking care of him as he's recuperating from surgery,

563
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: he doesn't warn you that he has filed for divorce. No,

564
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: you go to the mailbox as you're caring for him,

565
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: and you get the surprise. You go to the neighbor

566
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 1: you kind of talk to her. Then you come home

567
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: and what happened to you go back into the screaming,

568
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 1: yelling fights that you have not.

569
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 3: That day because he was recovering.

570
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 2: Well, so are you recovering?

571
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 3: Yeah?

572
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,479
Speaker 1: You come back and there he is on the couch

573
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: and you have this this in your hand, this bomb

574
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 1: is in your hand, and what do you do.

575
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 3: I came into the room. I said, I received your letter,

576
00:32:53,120 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 3: just calmly, you know, And he said, uh huh. And

577
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 3: I said, I just need a little time. So I'm

578
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 3: gonna have our neighbor come over sit with the kids

579
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 3: for a little bit while you recover. But I just

580
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 3: need a little time. And I remember calling my dad.

581
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 3: I remember walking around the neighborhood and crying to my father.

582
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 3: It was devastating, but it was also scary. It was

583
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 3: scary because this agreement was felt like it was just

584
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 3: writing me out of my life.

585
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: I think it was a characteristic of the dynamic between

586
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 1: the two of you, where not only did he not

587
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: communicate that while you were caring for him, as he

588
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: was recuperating from surgery that you were going to receive

589
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: this letter. He didn't even have the courtesy to give

590
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 1: you a heads up that it was this very, very

591
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: aggressive agreement. There wasn't okay once you came back from

592
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: that friend earlier and you discovered that he had confided

593
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: in his friend that he felt like the marriage was over.

594
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 1: There wasn't a conversation between the two of you. And

595
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,959
Speaker 1: I'm saying neither of you had this conversation. It wasn't

596
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: just him, that's right about what does this mean for us?

597
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: Because our lives are so intertwined. We've got the company,

598
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: we've got the kids, we have a history together. How

599
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 1: can we do this in a way that feels loving

600
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: to each other even though we're parting.

601
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And it was very clear. I think that he

602
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 3: wanted one thing in this agreement, and that was that

603
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 3: the company be his. And even though I was told

604
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 3: by my attorney, by my family, by my friends that

605
00:34:53,840 --> 00:35:00,040
Speaker 3: that was not correct, I was unable to fight for that,

606
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 3: and I.

607
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 2: Conceded, what do you mean enable?

608
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 3: I still was in a place where I always believed him. First.

609
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 3: I think this was years of conditioning, you know, in

610
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,720
Speaker 3: all different ways. It's sort of like what he said

611
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 3: was the ultimate truth, and what he was saying to

612
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 3: me was you really don't have a right to the company,

613
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,280
Speaker 3: even though I had an attorney telling me that's blatantly

614
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 3: not true, the thought of going to court it was terrifying.

615
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 3: Everything else we agreed upon, we agreed upon the distribution

616
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:35,240
Speaker 3: of possessions, and even the house we agreed to shared

617
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 3: custody fifty to fifty. But the pain of having these

618
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 3: two taken away half the week, all of a sudden,

619
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 3: after I was really the primary caregiver for their lives.

620
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 3: I wasn't ready for that either.

621
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: You know, this is going to sound strange, but sometimes

622
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 1: when couples fight, it's their way of connecting. It is

623
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: their emotional connection. And I think that you wanted that

624
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 1: connection with him. You didn't want the marriage to end,

625
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: and even when you were lonely in the marriage, you

626
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: wanted some kind of connection with him. And it seemed

627
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: like the only way that you could get some kind

628
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: of emotional response from him was if you started screaming,

629
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:13,959
Speaker 1: and then he would start screaming, and then you guys

630
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: would be in it together. And so I look at

631
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: this more as a way of you, not so much

632
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: fighting the battle for the company when you would scream

633
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,359
Speaker 1: at him, but just engaging with him emotionally.

634
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 3: That makes sense.

635
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 1: And then if you were to go to court, it

636
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 1: would not be that emotional engagement. It would be disconnection.

637
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 1: It would be the dissolution of your marriage. So when

638
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: you fought with him at home, it was about I'm

639
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 1: trying to save this I'm trying to save this connection.

640
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: And so when all these unconscious processes are going on,

641
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: our behavior seems really inexplicable. But when you start to

642
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: realize what it really represented, you realize I couldn't go

643
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 1: to court because I couldn't face the end of the marriage.

644
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 3: I think that's really true, and I've not thought of

645
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 3: it that way, but I think it's true. I think

646
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 3: there was always a part of me that was, for

647
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:12,919
Speaker 3: some reason, wanting him to engage and want to come

648
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 3: back and approve. And even now, you know, seven years later,

649
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,359
Speaker 3: he can walk in to pick up the kids and

650
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 3: he cannot look at me at all. It's like I

651
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 3: don't exist. He can walk into the house and there

652
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 3: won't be hello. Do you mind if I run upstairs

653
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,399
Speaker 3: to get our daughter's things? He'll just go. I think

654
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 3: that's been for me. The most insanely painful part is

655
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 3: that it's like I wasn't there.

656
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 2: And do you say something to him in those moments,

657
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 2: like please say hello to me when you come into

658
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,919
Speaker 2: my house or something to alert him to the fact

659
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 2: that he's being rude.

660
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 3: I have not. He still has the power to intimidate

661
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 3: me a little bit. And it's a bizarre thing.

662
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,240
Speaker 2: It's not that bases. It has been the pattern all along.

663
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 2: What I think happened to you is that you took

664
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:10,240
Speaker 2: your eye off you and you had your eye on him,

665
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 2: and your eye on him was how do I get

666
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 2: him to be interested, to give me attention, to give

667
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,800
Speaker 2: me appreciation. And I think that part of what happened

668
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: in the divorce when you didn't fight for the company

669
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 2: was that there was still a little bit of hope

670
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 2: of getting that approval from him, of him looking at

671
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 2: you and going, you know what, we're getting divorce. But

672
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 2: you're okay, and you're smiling as I say it.

673
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know you're right, But I.

674
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 2: Think it's going on still, and I think even seven

675
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 2: years later, you're still wanting in some way whatever approval

676
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,359
Speaker 2: he can have, which is why it's very painful when

677
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,240
Speaker 2: he ignores you completely. But it's also why you don't

678
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 2: call him on just manners, truly, even just manners. I mean,

679
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 2: it would not cause a huge back to court scenario

680
00:38:58,160 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 2: to say, you know, when you come into my house

681
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 2: to me, it's polite even that. And I think that

682
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 2: you don't do that because you're still wanting from him something.

683
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 3: I think you're absolutely right. The intellectual, logical part of

684
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 3: me says, this is not a person that's ever going

685
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 3: to give you what you want. It wasn't happening in

686
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 3: those marital situations and dramas that played out. It certainly

687
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 3: didn't happen after. And I believe that now that he's

688
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 3: getting remarried, I feel like there's almost this desire on

689
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 3: his part to really make me disappear.

690
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 1: You talked about him coming in, and it's almost like

691
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 1: your marriage didn't exist, that he doesn't even acknowledge you,

692
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 1: as though you've been erased. He just took an eraser

693
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: and erased everything that happened before. And the girls are there,

694
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: but that's all that's left. Yes, but I think that

695
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 1: happened during the marriage too, that your needs, your desires,

696
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 1: you're goals were erased. You seem almost surprised.

697
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 3: You know.

698
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 1: Every time this happens, you get rewounded. And it's like

699
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 1: when someone goes to an empty well and they expect

700
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: water to be there, and then the next day they

701
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 1: go back to the well again, but it's empty, and

702
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 1: they keep going back to the empty well even though

703
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 1: they know there's no water there, they will remain thirsty.

704
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: They need to find a different water source. I feel

705
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: like that's what you do with Derek, is that you

706
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 1: keep expecting that there's going to be water there, and

707
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,760
Speaker 1: you get so wounded when there's not. And that makes

708
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 1: me wonder about how many times you went back to

709
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: the well during the marriage and wanting I guess the

710
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:51,280
Speaker 1: water then was his approval? Where did that come from?

711
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:56,879
Speaker 1: Where in your life did you have that experience where

712
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: approval was so important to this external approval.

713
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 3: When I was twelve, I got severely sick with Graves

714
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 3: disease and it kind of went undetected. I think, you know,

715
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 3: my pediatrician at the time was attributing some of the

716
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 3: problems to puberty even and at the time, my father

717
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 3: was very much grieving the loss of his brother who

718
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 3: had died very suddenly not long before my illness began,

719
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 3: and that was causing a lot of tension between my parents,

720
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,879
Speaker 3: and they were a little bit more absent than they

721
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 3: I think they would have been. So I was really

722
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,720
Speaker 3: getting more and more sick. I was getting teased at school.

723
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 3: No one wanted to be my friend.

724
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 1: What were you getting teased for?

725
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,399
Speaker 3: It was my appearance because after a while being that sick,

726
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 3: it started to show I was very skinny and I

727
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:55,280
Speaker 3: had really sunken in eyes. And what ended up happening

728
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 3: is they said, from what is called a thyroid storm,

729
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 3: where you can go in some organ failure, you know,

730
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 3: and you can die. And it just got that close.

731
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 3: And in that time I fought a lot with my mom.

732
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 3: I don't know if she understood why she had this

733
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 3: kid who couldn't get her act together, or couldn't wake

734
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 3: up for school, couldn't get good grades. You know. I

735
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 3: think to her I was really becoming a real problem.

736
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 3: And it wasn't met with the compassion or empathy at

737
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 3: that point. It was more anger like Derek, Yeah, you know,

738
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 3: it's timely because you know, as I wrote, the wedding

739
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 3: is coming up, the second marriage for my ex it's

740
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 3: in six weeks, and it's really been hard, and I've

741
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 3: been kind of denying myself that that sort of compassion,

742
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 3: as in the in face of just saying, oh, it's fine,

743
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 3: i'll be it's good, I can, I'm glad for you know,

744
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 3: I'm happy for him, when really it's just it's painful

745
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 3: on a million levels. And you know, my younger daughter

746
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 3: will get excited and say, oh yeah, and we were

747
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 3: getting the dresses. It's going to be a very similar

748
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 3: kind of wedding and with a similar group, and I

749
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 3: don't want to shut her down because this is a

750
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 3: happy thing for her and this should be something that

751
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 3: they celebrate. But it's hard for me.

752
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 2: Where will you be when the wedding takes place?

753
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 3: I was thinking that I should be out of town,

754
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 3: like I was actually considering going someplace else. I don't

755
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:41,879
Speaker 3: think that I want to be here. I don't. I don't.

756
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 3: I mean I thought about that. And they are going

757
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 3: to go on a trip after all together. They're kind

758
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 3: of doing what they're calling a family moon, so they're

759
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,479
Speaker 3: going to do a trip all together the following week,

760
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 3: which is nice I think for everybody to kind of

761
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 3: merge and assimilate. So I was thinking of either going

762
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 3: away during that or going away the day of and

763
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 3: just being out of town. I'm not sure where, but

764
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:07,439
Speaker 3: it would be hard to be here.

765
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: I'm curious about, as we're talking about Derek getting married,

766
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 1: what has your romantic life been like since the divorce.

767
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 3: So I dated some people since the divorce, and I

768
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 3: think I have kept myself from getting seriously involved with anybody.

769
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 3: It's been me not wanting, not feeling like I can

770
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 3: engage that way again.

771
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 1: Yet you know this idea of keeping distance between you

772
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: and a potential romantic partner that was there before Derek.

773
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: So in college you were a little bit uncertain. The

774
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 1: boyfriend wanted you to move across the country, and there

775
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:50,240
Speaker 1: was a logistical thing about I'm too young. Then Derek

776
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: was like, Hey, come meet my friends, come meet my family,

777
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 1: and you were like, I don't know. I think that

778
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,879
Speaker 1: there's something in there about protecting your and I'm not

779
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:05,839
Speaker 1: sure what you're protecting yourself from. Do you have any

780
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 1: ideas about that?

781
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,240
Speaker 3: And that's really interesting, but you know, and I hadn't

782
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 3: looked at the pattern like that. It could be back

783
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 3: to that childhood thing. I mean, I just think that

784
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 3: that sense, that incredible sense of loneliness at that time

785
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 3: is just very hard to shake.

786
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,320
Speaker 2: And yet you were in a marriage for many years

787
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:31,280
Speaker 2: in which you were lonely.

788
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I wonder if I keep people at arm's length

789
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 3: in general.

790
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 1: I think it's going to be really important for you

791
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 1: to understand more about how and why you keep people

792
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 1: at arm's length. I don't think it's a coincidence that

793
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 1: you married Derek because you couldn't get close to him.

794
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 1: He wasn't someone who was available in that way with you,

795
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 1: and so it was very convenient because you weren't going

796
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 1: to get tested in that way. You weren't going to

797
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: have someone come to you and say, hey, I needed

798
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 1: to show up more here.

799
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 3: That's a good point. I've been looking at what happens

800
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 3: when my daughters go off to school, you know, and

801
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,799
Speaker 3: that's not so far away. One who's two years away,

802
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 3: and the other will be quickly following. And I'm thinking,

803
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 3: what is my life going to look like at this point,

804
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 3: you know, And what do I have to do to

805
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,399
Speaker 3: kind of build a life because I'm starting to think

806
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:27,359
Speaker 3: I've put myself in a bit of a box here.

807
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: You mentioned that a lot of the friends ended up

808
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: staying friends with Derek, and that you lost some of

809
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 1: those connections. What has happened in the last seven years

810
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 1: around rebuilding or building new friendships.

811
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 3: I have a good group of five women in particular

812
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 3: that are very close to me. But I will tell

813
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 3: you one thing I have not done since the divorce

814
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:59,959
Speaker 3: is entertain in my house at all. So I feel

815
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,839
Speaker 3: like I need to be better about that. I've been

816
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,320
Speaker 3: nervous and making excuses like, oh, I need to paint,

817
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 3: or I should buy some different furniture, I should fix

818
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 3: this or fix that. I can't entertain until I do that.

819
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:17,280
Speaker 3: But I really think that's just me keeping again the distance,

820
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 3: because entertaining and bringing people into your space creates bonds.

821
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 3: And even when I dated people, I was very reluctant

822
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 3: to have people in my space. I just kept people out.

823
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 3: And I think it's going to be really important to

824
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 3: try and get past that.

825
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: What happened to your photography? What would prevent you from

826
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: going and taking the pictures?

827
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 3: You know? There's always just part of me that looks

828
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:45,399
Speaker 3: back and thinks, Wow, so much time has gone by,

829
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 3: Could I be anything resembling what I was before? This

830
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 3: whole marital thing happened, and I think I've kind of

831
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 3: resisted getting back to some of those things I did prior,

832
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 3: but I would probably enjoy it and enjoy all of

833
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 3: the artistic things I used to do.

834
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 1: He said, you've dated a few people. Can you talk

835
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:11,280
Speaker 1: a little bit more about how long those relationships lasted

836
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: and what happened.

837
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 3: The first person I dated after this split up was

838
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 3: probably about four months down the line, and we met

839
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:22,879
Speaker 3: because our kids were at the same school and had

840
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 3: a really good relationship. The funny thing is, I felt

841
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 3: like he wanted so much of my free time. I

842
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 3: think he was ready to take that relationship to the

843
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,280
Speaker 3: next level. We dated for two and a half years.

844
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 3: He was looking at possibly looking at moving in together.

845
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:43,399
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I wasn't expecting the two and a half

846
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 1: years Withven how you described it. And the reason I

847
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 1: say that is that he was asking for your time

848
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 1: because he was trying to create a life with you.

849
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 3: Yes, And I was really struggling.

850
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 1: We're laughing with you because you're laughing as well, because

851
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:02,279
Speaker 1: I thought you were going to say yeah, two and

852
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:04,359
Speaker 1: I thought months was going to follow that, not two

853
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:09,239
Speaker 1: and a half years. And when people get to that

854
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 1: point they want to integrate their lives, and it sounds

855
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 1: like you are really reluctant. And the irony of this

856
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:18,839
Speaker 1: is that when you were married to Derek, your big

857
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,279
Speaker 1: complaint was I never see you. I don't have enough

858
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: of your time. I want more of you because you

859
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 1: wanted what this boyfriend wanted, which is a very reasonable request.

860
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 1: And so do you see it now that what he

861
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 1: was asking for was probably quite reasonable given the length

862
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 1: of the relationship and where he wanted it to go.

863
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I do as you say this. It's like I

864
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:50,320
Speaker 3: can feel that block. Interestingly, the second person I dated

865
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 3: after that relationship ended was a person who was in

866
00:49:55,920 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 3: a situation where he was still married though being in

867
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 3: separate parts of the house.

868
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 1: And that works great for you.

869
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:08,839
Speaker 3: Unacceptable to most people, including my friends, right, but it's

870
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 3: perfect for you.

871
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 2: We have to laugh, right, I'm laughing at how well

872
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 2: you know yourself in that way?

873
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, But and yet you know that worked.

874
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: Right because the arm's length was built into the relationship

875
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 1: it was, So how did that stop working?

876
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 3: I seem to have this inner conflict where it works

877
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 3: and then it doesn't, and then I fight for it

878
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 3: being different. So it's this sort of dance where I

879
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 3: would say, you know, this is taking too long. You

880
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 3: really need to adjust the situation. And we went back

881
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,400
Speaker 3: and forth a little bit. We would end the relationship

882
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 3: and then we would resume the relationship, and end the

883
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 3: relationship and resume it. In one of those periods where

884
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 3: we ended the relationship, I dated another person and the

885
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 3: same thing happened. He was so available I couldn't take it,

886
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 3: and I ended that. So definitely, seeing the pattern, I

887
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 3: still get together with the person who is married. We're

888
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 3: in more of a friendship place, and we kind of

889
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 3: try to keep it on a friendship level until he

890
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:17,719
Speaker 3: does make a significant move out of the situation he's in.

891
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 3: And he's even said to me, I'm afraid that you're

892
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 3: not going to want me when I do that. And

893
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 3: you know, I don't have the heart to say, well,

894
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 3: that's not, you know, unfounded.

895
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 1: But and you can say you're right, you could say

896
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 1: that may be true.

897
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 2: I won't afraid you shouldn't.

898
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 3: Be my God, I don't want to go down that

899
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 3: path continuously.

900
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,879
Speaker 1: We call what you're doing creating your own abandonment.

901
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 3: YEP. I think that makes so much sense.

902
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 1: So Audrey we have some advice for you, and we

903
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,840
Speaker 1: were thinking about how much time you spend and how

904
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: much energy you spend going to the well that is dry,

905
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 1: and like you to go where the water is, and

906
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 1: so we have a few tasks that we think will

907
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:09,839
Speaker 1: help accomplish that. And the first one is this guy

908
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 1: that you were dating that you are now in this

909
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:17,360
Speaker 1: friendship with, the sort of friends with benefits relationship with.

910
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 1: We think that that's a dry well, and we think

911
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 1: that spending time with him might help you with some

912
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:27,480
Speaker 1: of your loneliness in a moment when you want some companionship,

913
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: but it takes away from the energy that you're going

914
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 1: to need to go where the water is, in other words,

915
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 1: to find a relationship where the person is available and

916
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:42,400
Speaker 1: that you're willing to show up for that. So we

917
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 1: think that you should not be in contact with him

918
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:50,839
Speaker 1: at this time. So that's the first task understood. The

919
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:54,880
Speaker 1: second thing is that you spend a lot of time

920
00:52:56,160 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: thinking about Derek and what he thinks about you, how

921
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 1: he thinks about you, whether he thinks about you, and

922
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:09,279
Speaker 1: still kind of looking for his approval, and we think

923
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:12,279
Speaker 1: again that that is a dry well. It doesn't really

924
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 1: matter what he thinks. What he's not thinking, we'll never know.

925
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 1: But most important, it's not that relevant. And so you

926
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 1: were talking about how you've never entertained in your home

927
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 1: and how you'd like to be doing that, and we

928
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 1: think that a really great idea is to make your

929
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:38,319
Speaker 1: first dinner party be the night of the wedding, so

930
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:41,399
Speaker 1: that you have lots of water around you that night.

931
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 1: It can be whatever you want it to be. It

932
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 1: can be two people, it could be five people, but

933
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 1: it will be the first time that you are entertaining

934
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:53,920
Speaker 1: in your space with people who are symbolically water for you.

935
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:56,439
Speaker 1: And what we'd like you to do this week, since

936
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 1: that's six weeks away, is we'd like you to start

937
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 1: the planning. Who are you going to what will it

938
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 1: be like, what's the menu going to be? And report

939
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 1: back to us, okay, And then while Derek is off

940
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 1: on his family moon, we would like you to pick

941
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 1: a friend that you would like to travel with, and

942
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:21,720
Speaker 1: we would like you to get a camera, and we'd

943
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 1: like you to go someplace. You said you do travel photography.

944
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 1: We'd like you to go someplace where you would like

945
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 1: to be a photographer, so that you have the company

946
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 1: of someone that you enjoy and who gives you the

947
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 1: space that you need, because we know that that's important

948
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:40,560
Speaker 1: to you. So someone that you're really comfortable with in

949
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 1: that way and gives you the space to go and

950
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:46,720
Speaker 1: take the pictures that you want to take and somewhere

951
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 1: where you're really excited to do this, the way you

952
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 1: were excited in your twenties to go someplace and take pictures.

953
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:56,000
Speaker 1: We want you to pick that place, okay, and so

954
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 1: that will be you creating your own wells that have

955
00:54:59,160 --> 00:54:59,879
Speaker 1: water in them.

956
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,759
Speaker 2: We were also thinking about that year when you were

957
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 2: sick as a kid between twelve and thirteen and undiagnosed,

958
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:12,399
Speaker 2: and he thought about how lonely that must have been,

959
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:15,720
Speaker 2: and we think that probably a lot of scars there

960
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 2: that haven't fully healed, and so we would like you

961
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,239
Speaker 2: to go back to therapy. We want you to do

962
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:27,000
Speaker 2: some work around that year and its impact so that

963
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:29,400
Speaker 2: you can heal from that fully. And we also think

964
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:32,959
Speaker 2: that if you were dating around that time, it would

965
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:36,919
Speaker 2: be really helpful to be in therapy for that as well,

966
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 2: because you could talk through some of those visceral blocks

967
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:44,560
Speaker 2: that you feel at the idea of getting too close

968
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 2: of moving it to a more serious relationship.

969
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 1: And the thing that therapy can help you with is

970
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 1: this idea of I'm lonely, but I don't want to

971
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:58,799
Speaker 1: get too close. And that's a real internal conflict for you.

972
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:02,240
Speaker 1: Trying to protect myself here in a way that maybe

973
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 1: isn't protective, but that will leave me feeling even lonelier.

974
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:09,320
Speaker 1: And so this week, do a little research and see

975
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 1: if you can make an appointment with a therapist.

976
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm willing to do all those things. Wonderful, Absolutely will.

977
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 3: Thank you. I really appreciate it. And an incredible talk

978
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:26,759
Speaker 3: and just already so many insights that I just hadn't

979
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 3: thought about, So very very appreciative, thank you.

980
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 2: I think this is one of these situations where Audrey

981
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:45,799
Speaker 2: walked in with one narrative in her head about her

982
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 2: story and truly walked out with another one. It makes

983
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:52,319
Speaker 2: me really believe that she will follow through on these

984
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:55,719
Speaker 2: assignments and she will do so well because I think

985
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:56,680
Speaker 2: she really got it.

986
00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 1: What happens is people get stuck in the story. They

987
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 1: get stuck in the faulty narrative, and that's why they

988
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 1: can't move forward. And once she was able to see

989
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 1: there might be more to this story that I'm not seeing.

990
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 1: There might be other ways of looking at this. In fact,

991
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 1: I might have a role in this too, and to

992
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 1: be able to hold that without saying and it's all

993
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 1: my fault, but to be able to say Derek had

994
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 1: a role in this, but I brought something to this

995
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:23,640
Speaker 1: marriage as well. And if I'm going to move forward,

996
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 1: I need to understand what has been holding me up,

997
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 1: not only when I was married to Derek, but before then,

998
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:32,480
Speaker 1: and then also since then, in the seven years that

999
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:35,720
Speaker 1: have passed. Often, as therapists, we're curious to know when

1000
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:38,080
Speaker 1: we meet someone, not just why are you here, but

1001
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 1: why now? And I think for Audrey it might seem

1002
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 1: like the reason she was writing to us now was

1003
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:48,000
Speaker 1: because of Derek's upcoming wedding, and maybe that was the

1004
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 1: impetus for her to write to us. But I also

1005
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 1: think internally there was a readiness for her to say,

1006
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 1: what might be going on here? How can I move

1007
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 1: past this in a way that maybe she wasn't ready

1008
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 1: for earlier. So I think she was ready, and I

1009
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 1: think she's going to be very motivated to try some

1010
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 1: of the advice that we gave her this week.

1011
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 2: You're listening to deotherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after

1012
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:21,160
Speaker 2: a quick break.

1013
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:35,919
Speaker 1: Well, guy, we heard back from Audrey and we gave

1014
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 1: her some tasks that would help her to take her

1015
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 1: focus away from all of that rumination about her ex

1016
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:44,440
Speaker 1: husband and to focus instead on herself.

1017
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 3: Hi, Guy and Laurie. This is Audrey. I was kind

1018
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 3: to follow up on the assignments you gave me last

1019
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:53,560
Speaker 3: week after our talk. So first, let me tell you

1020
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:57,880
Speaker 3: that I have a therapist appointment scheduled for this coming Friday.

1021
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 3: I'm really looking forward to that, so it felt good

1022
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:04,880
Speaker 3: to make that appointment. Second was the talk with my

1023
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:10,520
Speaker 3: married friend that went pretty well because I tried to

1024
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 3: focus mostly on me and my patterns, and I didn't

1025
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 3: want to go into it and make it feel like

1026
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:21,680
Speaker 3: an attack on his situation, because I really thought the

1027
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:25,040
Speaker 3: important thing was to express that my own patterns have

1028
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 3: been ones that don't necessarily get me to a place

1029
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:32,960
Speaker 3: of complete and full relationships, and that that has been

1030
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:35,480
Speaker 3: unhealthy for me, and that what I'm really trying to

1031
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:41,080
Speaker 3: do going forward is pave the way for complete relationships

1032
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 3: where I can give one hundred percent and get it.

1033
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:47,880
Speaker 3: And he was supportive because I didn't try to make

1034
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 3: it about blaming him or again honing in on his situation.

1035
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:56,600
Speaker 3: So that was difficult because I really care about this person,

1036
00:59:57,080 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 3: but I feel good about it. The fun thing things.

1037
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 3: The first thing was the dinner party, and that took

1038
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 3: a little thought because I had to really think about

1039
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 3: the friends that I wanted to include and who I

1040
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 3: thought would work well together. But I think the most

1041
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:16,520
Speaker 3: important thing about it was how nice it felt to

1042
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 3: envision people in my home that I was hosting. So

1043
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:24,280
Speaker 3: as I sort of narrowed my list, this first christening

1044
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 3: of my house, again is a knee house, I thought

1045
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 3: about how nice it's going to be to have people

1046
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 3: in my home, and that has felt good ever since

1047
01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:42,000
Speaker 3: starting the planning. So I've been sending out invitations to

1048
01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:46,600
Speaker 3: see who's available, and we're looking forward to making more plans.

1049
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:50,520
Speaker 3: The trip is pretty exciting. Right away. I kind of

1050
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:53,360
Speaker 3: thought that my sisters would be people I'd like to

1051
01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:55,880
Speaker 3: travel with. They're not both.

1052
01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 4: Available for this particular data I'm looking at, but my

1053
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 4: older sister is, and so we're talking about doing a

1054
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:06,120
Speaker 4: mutual photo trip and writing trip to the mountainous part

1055
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:07,160
Speaker 4: of North Carolina.

1056
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:09,240
Speaker 3: It's a place we both really want to go to

1057
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:13,280
Speaker 3: and see, and we're really kind of getting excited about

1058
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:18,560
Speaker 3: rekindling both of our artistic loves. In that place, I'm

1059
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 3: thinking a lot less about the wedding and a lot

1060
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:25,000
Speaker 3: more about things I can be doing and living my

1061
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:28,960
Speaker 3: own life and getting healthier. It's already starting to shift

1062
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:32,480
Speaker 3: my perspective and get myself focused much more on me.

1063
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:36,320
Speaker 3: So thank you so much, because I really think that

1064
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:40,000
Speaker 3: this was a terrific starting point for me, and I'm

1065
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:44,080
Speaker 3: really looking forward to beginning that therapy and putting my

1066
01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 3: attention in the right places, surrounding myself with water. Thank you.

1067
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 1: I love how Audrey brought back the metaphor of the

1068
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:02,160
Speaker 1: dry well and the water. I think that really helped

1069
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:07,480
Speaker 1: her to realize that she had been thirsty for all

1070
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 1: of these things for so long, and she really just

1071
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:13,640
Speaker 1: dived right into our assignment.

1072
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:16,600
Speaker 2: And what I love is that she decided to reconnect

1073
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:20,560
Speaker 2: with her home by entertaining, to reconnect with friends like

1074
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:23,480
Speaker 2: the hub of a social activity in the dinner that

1075
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:26,640
Speaker 2: she's doing, and to go away on that creative retreat

1076
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:29,160
Speaker 2: with her sister. It's a great reminder you don't have

1077
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:31,520
Speaker 2: to go away with another photographer. If you're a photographer,

1078
01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 2: another writer, if you're a writer, you can just go

1079
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 2: away with someone in which you both do the creative thing.

1080
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 2: I think she planned a perfect vacation and the dinner

1081
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 2: sounds like it's going to be great.

1082
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:42,360
Speaker 1: And there was a lot of letting go that we

1083
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:44,680
Speaker 1: asked her to do. Part of it was how are

1084
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 1: you going to manage the remarriage of your ex? And

1085
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:50,280
Speaker 1: part of it is how are you going to let

1086
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:52,800
Speaker 1: go of this person who's been your crutch while you're

1087
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:55,560
Speaker 1: trying to date and meet someone yourself. And that's a

1088
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:58,360
Speaker 1: really hard thing to do. But I think she's realizing

1089
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 1: that she needs to focus on herself and that will

1090
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:03,960
Speaker 1: help her to find a new romantic partner in her life.

1091
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:06,040
Speaker 2: And I love the way she did it too, because

1092
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Speaker 2: she did it with honesty and with vulnerability, and I

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01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:14,160
Speaker 2: love that she's finding her voice.

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01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 1: Next week, a young man finds himself at odds with

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01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:20,080
Speaker 1: his boss and her lack of boundaries outside the workplace.

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01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:22,520
Speaker 5: She would kind of contact me outside of work to

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01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:25,000
Speaker 5: keep that conversation going. I would just see my phone

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01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:27,040
Speaker 5: light up and it'd be a text message, and I said, hey,

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01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:29,640
Speaker 5: if this is work related and I'm not at work.

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01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:33,040
Speaker 5: I really would like if you could just email me instead.

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01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:34,360
Speaker 5: She didn't really do that.

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01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:38,320
Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,

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01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:40,960
Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't

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01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:44,600
Speaker 1: miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by

1105
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:46,800
Speaker 1: telling your friends about it and leaving a review on

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01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:50,320
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.

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01:03:50,720 --> 01:03:52,920
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

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01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 2: Big O Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia

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01:03:57,480 --> 01:03:58,200
Speaker 2: dot com.

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Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. Were produced and edited

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01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:06,440
Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns

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01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:10,040
Speaker 1: are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison

1113
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:14,120
Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric. We

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Speaker 1: can't wait to see you at next week's session.

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Speaker 2: Deotherapist is a production of iHeartRadio.