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Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

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Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

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Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

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Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

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Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

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Speaker 1: gain value from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.

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Speaker 3: Just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

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Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

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Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

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Speaker 1: I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

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Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 3: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 3: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

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Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

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Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 3: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,

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Speaker 3: a woman wonders whether her ex husband is a narcissist

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Speaker 3: and why she is still struggling to move on seven

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Speaker 3: years after the divorce.

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Speaker 4: He said, So, I have four major stressors in my life.

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Speaker 4: My marriage, my health, my work, and that I'm a father.

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Speaker 4: He said. One of those things is on the chopping block,

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Speaker 4: and that's the marriage first.

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Speaker 1: A quick note therapist is for informational purposes only. It

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Speaker 1: does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is not

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Speaker 1: a substitute for professional health care advice. Diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 1: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,

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Speaker 1: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may

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Speaker 1: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 1: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part

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Speaker 1: or in full, and we may edit it for length

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Speaker 1: and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All names have

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Speaker 1: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.

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Speaker 3: Hey Laurie, Hey guy. So today we have a letter

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Speaker 3: about being in a relationship with a narcissist.

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Speaker 1: We get a lot of letters about relationships with narcissists.

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Speaker 3: Indeed, here's this one, deo therapists. I am seven years

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Speaker 3: out of a marriage with either a narcissist or a

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Speaker 3: man with serious narcissistic tendencies. While I have known this

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Speaker 3: intellectually for a long time, I think that I have

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Speaker 3: yet to move past the confusion, pain and sadness of

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Speaker 3: the situation. I feel stuck. I seem to push people

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Speaker 3: away who care, I choose relationships that are not healthy

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Speaker 3: for me, and I feel a deep sense of loneliness

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Speaker 3: and hopelessness. Lately, I have two children who are the

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Speaker 3: lights of my life. They are doing well despite the divorce,

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Speaker 3: and that is the most important thing to me. But

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Speaker 3: I can feel myself sinking deeper and deeper into isolation

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Speaker 3: and despair. Part of this is that my ex husband

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Speaker 3: is remarrying soon. I really love the woman he's marrying.

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Speaker 3: She's wonderful, and I have a lot of confusion around this.

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Speaker 3: So much of his courtship with her is identical to

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Speaker 3: what mine was like with him. This is bringing back

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Speaker 3: memories and pain. As I try to be supportive and

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Speaker 3: do my own thing, I start to wonder if the

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Speaker 3: divorce was my fault and if I imagined his cruelty.

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Speaker 3: This makes me feel all the more stuck. All I

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Speaker 3: want now is to move past all this and be

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Speaker 3: more like the person I was before I ever met him.

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Speaker 3: But I don't know how Audrey well.

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Speaker 1: I can see why she's confused, because when somebody acts

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Speaker 1: a certain way toward you, and then you see them

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Speaker 1: act towards somebody else in a way that you wish

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Speaker 1: they had acted toward you, you start to question what

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Speaker 1: is real what is imagined. And although we can't diagnose

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Speaker 1: someone that we haven't seen, so we don't really know

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Speaker 1: whether narcissism fits here, we do know that people who

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Speaker 1: do have narcissistic tendencies or have narcissistic personality disorder tend

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Speaker 1: to be incredibly charming in certain contexts and can be

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Speaker 1: incredibly cruel in others, and that generally causes so much

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Speaker 1: confusion when you're in a relationship with somebody like.

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Speaker 3: That, and when the situation is severally is removed, that's

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Speaker 3: where a memory can trick us a bit, and we

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Speaker 3: can tend to start remembering the highlights rather than the

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Speaker 3: low lights, and we can start to create a slightly

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Speaker 3: different picture in our head. Memory is very fallible in

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Speaker 3: that way, and so it's also possible that when she

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Speaker 3: sees him being so lovely with his new fiance, she's

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Speaker 3: starting to recollect the times you were so lovely with her,

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Speaker 3: and that makes a question the other times where he

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Speaker 3: was not. So let's go talk to her and find out.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists for My Heart Radio. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back after a short break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench and this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 4: Hi, Audrey, Hi, welcome to the show. Thank you so

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Speaker 4: much for having me. I really appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: We wanted to start by learning a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about the relationship with your ex husband. Can you tell

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about how you met and when

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Speaker 1: you started to see what you're calling these narcissistic tendencies?

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Speaker 4: Sure, excepted and I met when I was working as

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Speaker 4: a bartender at an event where he was a graduate student,

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Speaker 4: and we began our relationship with a lot of phone calls.

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Speaker 4: So we talked quite a bit over the phone just

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Speaker 4: about all different things, family, career, interests, and it was

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Speaker 4: sort of a whirlwind quick relationship. You know, we were

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Speaker 4: suddenly just in the relationship. And the thing that I

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Speaker 4: can tell you about what I noticed was that he

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Speaker 4: had a way of just commanding everything. A month into

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Speaker 4: our relationship, he wanted me to meet all of his

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Speaker 4: fraternity brothers and their wives and significant others. And this

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Speaker 4: was going to take place at a wedding that was

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Speaker 4: out of town, which would mean I would have to

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Speaker 4: fly there, be there, and I was nervous. I was

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Speaker 4: coming off of a trip myself that I was going

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Speaker 4: on for photography, which is at the time what I

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Speaker 4: was doing, and I said, I really don't know if

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Speaker 4: I'm ready for that, because it's been a short period

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Speaker 4: of time that we've been dating, but he just wouldn't

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Speaker 4: have it, and he was so intense about me meeting

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Speaker 4: these people, and he persuaded me. He talked me into it,

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Speaker 4: and I went on this trip and I ended up

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Speaker 4: really liking everybody, and it was a good trip. But

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Speaker 4: I'll say that this characterized our relationship going forward quite

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Speaker 4: a lot. It was me being a little unsure if

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Speaker 4: I was ready for certain things and him sort of

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Speaker 4: just convincing me with it. He was charming, smart, and

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Speaker 4: I would always say, okay, all right, I'll do it

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Speaker 4: your way, and you know, I felt kind of lucky

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Speaker 4: to have this person interested in me if he had

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Speaker 4: this way about him. He was very, very determined in

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Speaker 4: his career. He was incredibly focused. He was accomplished, you know,

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Speaker 4: at a young age, and he seemed to know a

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Speaker 4: lot about what he wanted at that particular point in

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Speaker 4: his life. And I was trying to establish myself as

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Speaker 4: an artist and photographer, so I was working more than

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Speaker 4: one job, including the bartending, to get to that place.

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Speaker 4: So for me, he just represented something I lacked, and

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Speaker 4: that is what drew me to him.

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Speaker 1: How old were you both at this time?

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Speaker 4: So I was twenty five and he was twenty seven,

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Speaker 4: almost twenty eight, so we're about three years apart.

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Speaker 3: So this all happened within the first month that you're

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Speaker 3: meeting all the fraternity friends, you're flying off for an event.

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Speaker 3: How quickly did things progress after that? And again, when

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Speaker 3: did you start to first see signs of what you're

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Speaker 3: characterizing as narcissism?

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Speaker 4: So things progressed fairly quickly. We got engaged after a year,

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Speaker 4: which seemed fairly quick, and I think the first indicator

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Speaker 4: for me that things were possibly a problem where when

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Speaker 4: he was beginning to interview for new jobs because he

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Speaker 4: was coming out of a master's program in business and

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Speaker 4: one of the possibilities was overseas, he was willing to

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Speaker 4: take me over there with him, which was really nice.

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Speaker 4: We flew overseas together while he went through this interview process.

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Speaker 4: But I expressed to him there I really wasn't sure

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Speaker 4: that I was ready to move away from my family

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Speaker 4: and overseas, and his reaction was really tough. He got

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Speaker 4: very angry. He didn't seem to understand. He thought that

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Speaker 4: this was a great opportunity for both of us, and

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Speaker 4: so it was it felt like, okay, this is what

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Speaker 4: he wants to do, and I should be on board.

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Speaker 4: And again, I think I was just overwhelmed by the attention.

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Speaker 4: And what I didn't express at the time was I'm

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Speaker 4: very close with my family. I live with my sister,

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Speaker 4: I had for five five years. I really loved seeing them.

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Speaker 4: I saw my grandmother every week, I saw my parents.

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Speaker 4: So I wasn't sure if I was ready for that

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Speaker 4: kind of move, and I just felt drowned out by

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Speaker 4: his pushing and pushing. As it turned out, he did

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Speaker 4: not take that job, but he did take a job

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Speaker 4: out of state, and I did move out of state

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Speaker 4: with him, and that was incredibly difficult. So I'd say

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Speaker 4: that things began to get difficult when I left my home.

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Speaker 1: Once you moved and you realized that it was difficult,

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Speaker 1: did you talk to him about how difficult it was

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Speaker 1: for you?

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Speaker 4: I did when I came down there. I expressed nerves

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Speaker 4: in the beginning about how much work he'd be doing,

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Speaker 4: and I said, can you tell me roughly how long

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Speaker 4: your hours might be and if you feel like you

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Speaker 4: could possibly control them so that I'm not alone all

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Speaker 4: the time as I figure out what I'm going to do,

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Speaker 4: Because right now I don't have anything. I'm leaving. You

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Speaker 4: know what I was doing, which was photography, and you know,

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Speaker 4: I had a life, and I was struggling. I was

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Speaker 4: struggling with the fact that it was just very different

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Speaker 4: from home. I didn't know anybody, so I had a

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Speaker 4: real tough time. And I did make it known.

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Speaker 3: Did he take an interest in how your days were going?

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Speaker 3: Would he come home and say, well, how was your day?

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Speaker 3: How are you doing? Are you making friends? Would he

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Speaker 3: show an interest?

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Speaker 4: He did. He would ask and make suggestions, and he

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Speaker 4: would ask if there were any possible jobs that I

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Speaker 4: was looking into. And I did find a job at

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Speaker 4: an art gallery slash frame shop that I just found

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Speaker 4: it was a great way to pass the time. But

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Speaker 4: in the beginning, I just felt completely like a fish

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Speaker 4: out of water.

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Speaker 1: What did the two of you have in common? What

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Speaker 1: drew you to each other?

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Speaker 4: I read an interest in art. He did love art,

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Speaker 4: even though he came from much more of a mathematical,

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Speaker 4: scientific world, and so he liked going and looking at museums.

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Speaker 4: I just really appreciated his focus, his dedication to work,

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Speaker 4: his education because I had grown up in a family

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Speaker 4: where education was very important. I think learning was something

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Speaker 4: we had in common.

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Speaker 1: I guess the question that I'm really asking is emotionally,

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Speaker 1: what connected the two of you?

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Speaker 4: Interestingly, I found emotionally that it was difficult first to connect.

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Speaker 4: He was very attentive, but I always felt that there

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Speaker 4: was just something slightly disconnected, And so I thought, well,

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Speaker 4: he shows so much adoration and attention in certain ways

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Speaker 4: that I told myself that would probably happen eventually, that

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Speaker 4: I'd feel that true sort of emotional connection. But it

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Speaker 4: was a challenge.

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Speaker 3: If I were to ask you at the time or

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Speaker 3: even now, why you Why did he choose you you?

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Speaker 3: What would you say?

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Speaker 4: That's an interesting question. I would say he saw someone

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Speaker 4: who was also hardworking. He thought I also was intelligent.

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Speaker 4: You know that I had a closeness with my family,

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Speaker 4: as he expressed in his own family. So he seemed

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Speaker 4: to see things that were similar to him in that way.

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Speaker 4: Even though I was probably more introverted than him, that

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Speaker 4: didn't have a hard time interacting with his friends or

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Speaker 4: his family, you know, that was always pretty easy. I

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Speaker 4: think he thought we could do things together, we could

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Speaker 4: compliment each other.

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Speaker 3: It's my guess, getting back to the signs of what

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Speaker 3: you're calling narcissism. It tell us some of those highlights

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Speaker 3: or low lights, if you will, about some of those

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Speaker 3: the big incidents that really shook you and made you

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Speaker 3: feel there's something definitely wrong here.

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Speaker 4: So I think that it came a little later when

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Speaker 4: I was getting a little antsy because I did want

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Speaker 4: to go back to school, and when I brought this up,

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Speaker 4: there was not a whole lot of support. Long story

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Speaker 4: short is I was not able to do that program

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Speaker 4: anyway because we got pregnant. So enter baby number one,

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Speaker 4: and I think this is where those things started to

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Speaker 4: appear for me. During the pregnancy. I really was terrified

255
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Speaker 4: those first three months, and there was really no empathy there.

256
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Speaker 4: There was anger that I wasn't more excited.

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Speaker 1: Was the pregnancy something that you both planned?

258
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Speaker 4: No? No, turned out to be a great thing, but

259
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Speaker 4: we just didn't plan on getting pregnant at that time.

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Speaker 4: So it was one of those fun ones where the

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Speaker 4: pill didn't work. In that particular instance, I was pregnant

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Speaker 4: and so it was out of the blue.

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Speaker 1: And had the two of you talked about a timeline

264
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Speaker 1: for having kids, if you wanted kids, when you might

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Speaker 1: have kids.

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Speaker 4: I always said that I would feel much more comfortable

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Speaker 4: to begin a family when I had finally established what

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Speaker 4: I was going to do and gotten my education. And

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Speaker 4: that was a large part of why I was so

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Speaker 4: nervous when I did get pregnant. It felt like the

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Speaker 4: timing was really bad when you.

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Speaker 1: Had had the conversation before the unexpected pregnancy. Did he

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Speaker 1: seem to be okay with waiting? It sounds like you

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Speaker 1: were still on birth control, so he must have been

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Speaker 1: on board with that plan.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he was on board. But that was a difficult

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Speaker 4: subject for us. Once I was pregnant, it was sort

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Speaker 4: of like, definitely changed the plan. I didn't go to

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Speaker 4: that program, and you know, I spent the first few

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Speaker 4: months again being really unsure about the pregnancy. I was

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Speaker 4: very upset because I wasn't sure I wanted to go

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Speaker 4: through with it, and it was a real issue with us,

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Speaker 4: and he was just very angry angry about that. But

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Speaker 4: this was really tough for me. I was really back

285
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Speaker 4: and forth until about the second trimester and suddenly, and

286
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Speaker 4: this is why I wonder if it was even hormonal changes,

287
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Speaker 4: I felt okay. I accepted it, and I was happy,

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Speaker 4: and our daughter was very healthy and great. So with

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Speaker 4: a conservative narcissism. I just felt like there was so

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Speaker 4: little empathy around that feeling, and it was more anger,

291
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Speaker 4: but it came out more in the expectation that I

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Speaker 4: was going to be home with the baby when he worked.

293
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Speaker 4: And little things started occurring, like I did find a

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Speaker 4: program that I could do where we lived. It was

295
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Speaker 4: a night program, actually, and I worked very hard to

296
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Speaker 4: create a schedule that allowed for his work. He would

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Speaker 4: I'd say, yes, I'll make a commitment to being home

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Speaker 4: by a certain time on these nights, and then he

299
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Speaker 4: wouldn't show up. And when I confronted him about that,

300
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Speaker 4: he would say, well, you didn't say that, or we

301
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Speaker 4: didn't agree to that. I didn't say I would get

302
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Speaker 4: home at this time, where it's not that important. It's

303
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Speaker 4: more important that I'm doing what I'm doing. So those

304
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Speaker 4: were the types of things that were beginning to happen.

305
00:18:33,839 --> 00:18:36,119
Speaker 4: I was beginning to feel like I couldn't trust that

306
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Speaker 4: he would be there when I needed him to be

307
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Speaker 4: so I could do the things I wanted while simultaneously

308
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Speaker 4: taking care of this baby.

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Speaker 3: And how would you respond to him when he's saying

310
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Speaker 3: to you, it's more important that I do what I'm

311
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Speaker 3: doing for the extra hour than you get to follow

312
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Speaker 3: your dreams. What was your response to that.

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Speaker 4: It started more subtle and where I would just sort

314
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Speaker 4: of get quiet, and then after the third or fourth incident,

315
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Speaker 4: I started getting angry. You know, we would have a

316
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Speaker 4: bit of a yelling match over it. There would be Okay,

317
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Speaker 4: I will be here on time next time, and the

318
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Speaker 4: cycle would sort of begin again where he would own

319
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Speaker 4: up to that and you would show up, and then

320
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Speaker 4: we would have another episode where you know, it was

321
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Speaker 4: the lateness again in me getting angry.

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Speaker 1: You know, sometimes when people say they're going to do

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Speaker 1: something and then they don't do it, and then people

324
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Speaker 1: are really confused by that because it's like you said

325
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Speaker 1: you were going to do this and you're not here.

326
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Speaker 1: The reason they don't do it is because they actually

327
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Speaker 1: don't want to. And it sounds like the two of

328
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Speaker 1: you had some really fundamental differences around what you wanted

329
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Speaker 1: the day to day of your marriage to look like.

330
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Speaker 1: He was very clear from the beginning he wanted to

331
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Speaker 1: move forward very quickly. He wanted to get married, he

332
00:20:02,559 --> 00:20:06,039
Speaker 1: wanted to have a family, he wanted to focus on

333
00:20:06,079 --> 00:20:13,359
Speaker 1: his career. He was very ambitious. Maybe you wanted someone

334
00:20:13,399 --> 00:20:16,759
Speaker 1: who was going to go at a different pace, who

335
00:20:16,879 --> 00:20:19,479
Speaker 1: was going to have more of an egalitarian marriage in

336
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Speaker 1: terms of the childcare and career and all of those things.

337
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Speaker 1: But I don't hear that you had a direct conversation

338
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Speaker 1: of where are you, what are you wanting? Where am

339
00:20:32,799 --> 00:20:36,159
Speaker 1: I and what am I wanting? What prevented you from

340
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Speaker 1: having those more direct conversations with him?

341
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Speaker 4: I think I was a little intimidated. I think he

342
00:20:43,919 --> 00:20:48,079
Speaker 4: had a very intense presence. I didn't like to make

343
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Speaker 4: him angry, but I'm also not very confrontational. The second

344
00:20:52,439 --> 00:20:58,399
Speaker 4: thing is that he was working so hard and it

345
00:20:58,479 --> 00:21:03,439
Speaker 4: was a hard job that oftentimes our conversations would begin

346
00:21:04,399 --> 00:21:08,679
Speaker 4: with his difficulties, and I found there was not as

347
00:21:08,759 --> 00:21:11,719
Speaker 4: much room for mine. I always felt a little bit

348
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Speaker 4: nervous to approach him with whatever was going on in

349
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Speaker 4: my end, And then of course when I did, it

350
00:21:18,639 --> 00:21:22,279
Speaker 4: was you know, already sort of perceived like, well, you

351
00:21:22,599 --> 00:21:24,239
Speaker 4: just don't have it as hard as I do. You

352
00:21:24,599 --> 00:21:27,239
Speaker 4: just don't understand you're not the one who has to

353
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Speaker 4: make the money. Here, you're doing school, which is kind

354
00:21:29,999 --> 00:21:32,599
Speaker 4: of a luxury. I think I would end up feeling

355
00:21:32,599 --> 00:21:34,879
Speaker 4: like maybe I'm being a bit selfish. I would question

356
00:21:34,999 --> 00:21:39,319
Speaker 4: whether I was right to fight for these things that

357
00:21:39,399 --> 00:21:42,399
Speaker 4: I wanted, you know, And I think that really became

358
00:21:42,479 --> 00:21:45,319
Speaker 4: a big issue over time. Is that inner battle of

359
00:21:45,999 --> 00:21:48,319
Speaker 4: am I being selfish? Or is it okay to want

360
00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:48,919
Speaker 4: these things?

361
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Speaker 3: And were you talking to your sister or your parents

362
00:21:52,159 --> 00:21:56,319
Speaker 3: or friends to get some more balanced outside perspective about

363
00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,799
Speaker 3: whether he were being selfish or whether his demands were unreasonable.

364
00:22:01,079 --> 00:22:04,279
Speaker 4: I was, and in particular my sisters. I have two,

365
00:22:04,719 --> 00:22:08,199
Speaker 4: and I'm very close to both of them. My younger

366
00:22:08,279 --> 00:22:11,679
Speaker 4: sister was not a fan of him from the get go.

367
00:22:12,559 --> 00:22:15,799
Speaker 4: She found him to be a bit condescending and difficult

368
00:22:15,799 --> 00:22:19,639
Speaker 4: from the start, so her take was always that he

369
00:22:19,719 --> 00:22:21,839
Speaker 4: was being selfish, So I sort of took that with

370
00:22:21,839 --> 00:22:24,359
Speaker 4: a grain of salt. My older sister was a bit

371
00:22:24,439 --> 00:22:28,159
Speaker 4: more understanding. She would hear both sides, but she also

372
00:22:28,279 --> 00:22:31,999
Speaker 4: validated that I had made sacrifices for him. She said,

373
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Speaker 4: you moved to a new city, you left what you

374
00:22:34,759 --> 00:22:38,039
Speaker 4: were doing sort of in the middle of it, and

375
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Speaker 4: it's okay to want to do something for yourself.

376
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Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about your relationships

377
00:22:45,559 --> 00:22:51,199
Speaker 1: before this relationship, where you worried about bringing things up

378
00:22:51,199 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 1: in other relationships.

379
00:22:53,799 --> 00:22:57,799
Speaker 4: So I had two serious relationships before I met Derek.

380
00:22:58,239 --> 00:23:02,639
Speaker 4: They were different in the sense that we were on

381
00:23:02,839 --> 00:23:09,319
Speaker 4: equal terms. The first one ended because this person moved

382
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:14,599
Speaker 4: moved across the country and wanted me to go and

383
00:23:14,679 --> 00:23:18,279
Speaker 4: I said no. So interestingly, with that situation, I was

384
00:23:18,319 --> 00:23:21,039
Speaker 4: able to say, you know, this isn't the right time.

385
00:23:21,199 --> 00:23:24,119
Speaker 4: You know, I think I was twenty one and I

386
00:23:24,199 --> 00:23:28,359
Speaker 4: knew it wasn't the right thing. The second relationship ended

387
00:23:28,559 --> 00:23:32,639
Speaker 4: because I felt like the person I was seeing had

388
00:23:32,679 --> 00:23:36,399
Speaker 4: addiction issues and I wanted to get away from that.

389
00:23:37,239 --> 00:23:39,279
Speaker 4: I just saw that happening.

390
00:23:39,679 --> 00:23:42,039
Speaker 1: Did you talk about the addiction issues or did you

391
00:23:42,079 --> 00:23:44,439
Speaker 1: communicate openly in that relationship?

392
00:23:44,759 --> 00:23:48,079
Speaker 4: I did, it was an issue, and I was pretty

393
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:52,279
Speaker 4: adamant about the fact that I just couldn't see pursuing

394
00:23:52,319 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 4: a future with that in the in the mix, and

395
00:23:55,439 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 4: he at the time just did not see it as

396
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:57,679
Speaker 4: a problem.

397
00:23:57,799 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 3: So in both those earlier relationships, you were able to

398
00:24:01,959 --> 00:24:07,319
Speaker 3: assert your needs, to stand your ground, to not lose

399
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,999
Speaker 3: yourself within the relationship, to really hold on to what

400
00:24:11,079 --> 00:24:14,159
Speaker 3: you want and what your needs on what your perspective is.

401
00:24:15,199 --> 00:24:18,439
Speaker 3: And then with Derek, you did have trouble advocating for

402
00:24:18,479 --> 00:24:20,999
Speaker 3: your needs. What do you think that was about for you?

403
00:24:21,159 --> 00:24:23,719
Speaker 3: That you went from two relationships in which you was

404
00:24:23,759 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 3: so clear and centive to one in which you were

405
00:24:26,399 --> 00:24:28,159
Speaker 3: of center almost from the beginning.

406
00:24:29,159 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 4: The difference between Derek and those two folks was that

407
00:24:34,599 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 4: Derek was an overachiever. He showered me with more attention

408
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,639
Speaker 4: and intensity in those first months than those other relationships,

409
00:24:43,719 --> 00:24:46,439
Speaker 4: and I kind of ate it up. I thought, Wow,

410
00:24:46,719 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 4: this guy is so bright and so interesting, and he

411
00:24:50,959 --> 00:24:54,319
Speaker 4: had this way of making you feel like you must

412
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 4: be pretty amazing if you're in his club, because he

413
00:24:59,319 --> 00:25:04,159
Speaker 4: was also putting people down around us, and I kind

414
00:25:04,159 --> 00:25:06,719
Speaker 4: of knew that there was a red flag, but I

415
00:25:06,799 --> 00:25:09,279
Speaker 4: was seduced. I was seduced by this notion like every

416
00:25:09,319 --> 00:25:11,839
Speaker 4: everyone else is kind of bad and not good at

417
00:25:11,839 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 4: this and that and the other thing, but I must

418
00:25:13,399 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 4: be great because he approves of me. And I admit

419
00:25:16,479 --> 00:25:20,519
Speaker 4: that I think that his approval became almost like a

420
00:25:20,599 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 4: drug in a weird way. And when he would take

421
00:25:22,959 --> 00:25:24,759
Speaker 4: it away, I wanted it back.

422
00:25:25,479 --> 00:25:26,599
Speaker 1: How did he take it away?

423
00:25:27,239 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 4: He could withdraw by not talking, and I remember he

424
00:25:30,999 --> 00:25:33,199
Speaker 4: went on a business trip and we didn't speak the

425
00:25:33,399 --> 00:25:35,999
Speaker 4: entire week. He would not respond to my calls. We

426
00:25:36,039 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 4: had an argument before he left, and I was home

427
00:25:39,199 --> 00:25:41,919
Speaker 4: with our two daughters at that time, who were very young,

428
00:25:42,679 --> 00:25:45,439
Speaker 4: and he just not for a week. He did not respond.

429
00:25:45,879 --> 00:25:48,079
Speaker 1: What happened when he got back and you had been

430
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,479
Speaker 1: alone with the girls for a whole week and your

431
00:25:51,559 --> 00:25:53,039
Speaker 1: husband didn't respond to you.

432
00:25:53,559 --> 00:25:55,239
Speaker 4: It was late at night, so the girls were in

433
00:25:55,279 --> 00:25:59,999
Speaker 4: bed when he came in. My heart was racing. I

434
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 4: was waiting, you know, I was already worked up, and

435
00:26:04,439 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 4: I started yelling about it immediately. Wasn't a controlled conversation.

436
00:26:13,239 --> 00:26:15,999
Speaker 4: It escalated to the point of us having a screaming

437
00:26:16,039 --> 00:26:20,759
Speaker 4: match again. It resulted in him leaving that night again.

438
00:26:20,799 --> 00:26:23,719
Speaker 4: He had just got back in this trip, turned around

439
00:26:24,199 --> 00:26:28,479
Speaker 4: out the door. Those times were just awful.

440
00:26:29,079 --> 00:26:32,319
Speaker 1: When he came back after leaving again, How did you

441
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:33,199
Speaker 1: guys reconnect?

442
00:26:34,079 --> 00:26:36,719
Speaker 4: This is the kind of strange thing that was going on,

443
00:26:36,799 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 4: And I'll put us a little bit forward in the marriage.

444
00:26:39,439 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 4: I had pretty much given up my dreams of being

445
00:26:41,879 --> 00:26:43,839
Speaker 4: a travel photographer, which is what I was sort of

446
00:26:44,159 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 4: working towards. So he said, well, let's start this company.

447
00:26:48,439 --> 00:26:51,479
Speaker 4: So the bizarre thing that began to happen with us

448
00:26:51,559 --> 00:26:56,959
Speaker 4: is that our work relationship got so compartmentalized that we

449
00:26:57,039 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 4: could flip from these emotional angry battles writing to work

450
00:27:01,959 --> 00:27:06,239
Speaker 4: mode seamlessly and back. So, to answer your question, when

451
00:27:06,239 --> 00:27:09,479
Speaker 4: he came back after being away, it was like, oh,

452
00:27:09,479 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 4: by the way, did you get that paper done? Or

453
00:27:10,879 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 4: did you get that logo? Or did you do this?

454
00:27:12,319 --> 00:27:14,999
Speaker 4: And I'd switched right out of the screaming mode, and

455
00:27:14,999 --> 00:27:16,479
Speaker 4: but oh yeah, yeah, yeah I did, and then we

456
00:27:16,479 --> 00:27:19,039
Speaker 4: could go right back into screaming mode. So we were

457
00:27:19,039 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 4: in this very bizarre, compartmentalized place, almost pretending like those

458
00:27:23,639 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 4: things didn't happen, and sort of just moving through our days,

459
00:27:29,719 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 4: getting further and further apart in our emotional connection, but

460
00:27:34,559 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 4: maintaining this work connection and this parenting connection.

461
00:27:38,959 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: What was going on with your sex life during this time?

462
00:27:42,599 --> 00:27:47,839
Speaker 4: It was getting pretty non existent, And I know that

463
00:27:47,839 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 4: that was upsetting him, But I was feeling so disconnected

464
00:27:51,639 --> 00:27:53,279
Speaker 4: that I didn't feel.

465
00:27:54,519 --> 00:27:56,919
Speaker 3: Like going there were you talking about it?

466
00:27:57,439 --> 00:28:00,319
Speaker 4: We were arguing about it, and we really had a

467
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,479
Speaker 4: hard time communicating anytime we were upset. We even went

468
00:28:04,519 --> 00:28:07,719
Speaker 4: to therapy. We went to therapy together to try and

469
00:28:07,759 --> 00:28:12,599
Speaker 4: work that out. But the therapist would suggest that he

470
00:28:12,839 --> 00:28:16,279
Speaker 4: a lot specific time during the day for us, be

471
00:28:16,399 --> 00:28:18,799
Speaker 4: it at the end of the workday, when the kids

472
00:28:18,839 --> 00:28:23,079
Speaker 4: were in bed, no computers, no work, it would be

473
00:28:23,199 --> 00:28:26,759
Speaker 4: just us time. It just didn't happen. And he would say,

474
00:28:26,759 --> 00:28:29,319
Speaker 4: but I can't. I can't because I'm the owner and

475
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 4: boss of this place and it's just not something that

476
00:28:32,199 --> 00:28:35,719
Speaker 4: I can do. And it reached a point where he

477
00:28:35,839 --> 00:28:38,799
Speaker 4: stopped coming to the therapy sessions. It was just me,

478
00:28:39,399 --> 00:28:43,919
Speaker 4: And after the sixth therapy session alone, the therapist wisely said,

479
00:28:43,959 --> 00:28:47,279
Speaker 4: you know, we can't do this. It's not couple's therapy anymore.

480
00:28:47,759 --> 00:28:48,959
Speaker 1: How did the marriage end?

481
00:28:51,639 --> 00:28:54,199
Speaker 4: So we had a couple that we were very good

482
00:28:54,239 --> 00:28:56,759
Speaker 4: friends with as actually one of his fraternity brothers and

483
00:28:56,799 --> 00:29:00,239
Speaker 4: his wife, and I just went to him and I said,

484
00:29:00,239 --> 00:29:02,759
Speaker 4: you know, I just don't know what I'm not seeing

485
00:29:02,839 --> 00:29:08,319
Speaker 4: if we're in huge trouble. And what this person told

486
00:29:08,359 --> 00:29:11,159
Speaker 4: me is that he had had a talk with Derek

487
00:29:11,199 --> 00:29:16,559
Speaker 4: and that Derek very clearly said with my company, my

488
00:29:16,719 --> 00:29:19,759
Speaker 4: being a father, and my health problems. He had developed

489
00:29:19,759 --> 00:29:23,759
Speaker 4: some health problems. He had developed hypertension and severe sleep

490
00:29:23,799 --> 00:29:27,519
Speaker 4: apnea at that point, which were probably work related even

491
00:29:27,599 --> 00:29:31,239
Speaker 4: some eyesight issues from computer usage. And he said, so

492
00:29:31,319 --> 00:29:33,919
Speaker 4: I have four major stressors in my life. My marriage,

493
00:29:34,039 --> 00:29:37,319
Speaker 4: my health, my work, and that I'm a father. He said,

494
00:29:37,319 --> 00:29:39,639
Speaker 4: one of those things is on the chopping block, and

495
00:29:39,679 --> 00:29:40,599
Speaker 4: that's the marriage.

496
00:29:41,119 --> 00:29:43,919
Speaker 3: How did you feel when you heard that from the friend?

497
00:29:44,319 --> 00:29:45,559
Speaker 4: I was devastated.

498
00:29:45,879 --> 00:29:48,439
Speaker 1: And you heard this through his friend. This had never

499
00:29:48,439 --> 00:29:50,199
Speaker 1: been brought up to you. The two of you had

500
00:29:50,199 --> 00:29:51,679
Speaker 1: not discussed divorce.

501
00:29:51,719 --> 00:29:54,279
Speaker 4: Not at that point. I did bring it up after

502
00:29:54,319 --> 00:29:56,319
Speaker 4: I heard that, and I asked him, I said, is

503
00:29:56,359 --> 00:29:59,439
Speaker 4: this how you feel? He said yeah, he said I

504
00:29:59,519 --> 00:30:02,399
Speaker 4: can't do this. He said, you know, I can't not

505
00:30:02,519 --> 00:30:04,879
Speaker 4: be a father, I can't not be the president and

506
00:30:04,879 --> 00:30:07,919
Speaker 4: owner of this company, and I can't not take care

507
00:30:07,919 --> 00:30:10,559
Speaker 4: of my health. That leads me thing and so he

508
00:30:10,679 --> 00:30:12,399
Speaker 4: echoed the exact thing.

509
00:30:12,959 --> 00:30:16,319
Speaker 1: So he tells you that the marriage is the one

510
00:30:16,319 --> 00:30:20,439
Speaker 1: thing that has to go. And was that the moment

511
00:30:20,639 --> 00:30:22,919
Speaker 1: that the marriage ended? What did the two of you

512
00:30:22,999 --> 00:30:23,359
Speaker 1: do with that?

513
00:30:24,199 --> 00:30:28,159
Speaker 4: We sort of lingered in this limbo place for an

514
00:30:28,159 --> 00:30:29,839
Speaker 4: additional two years.

515
00:30:30,799 --> 00:30:34,159
Speaker 3: Except it wasn't you too who lingered in the limbo.

516
00:30:34,839 --> 00:30:36,599
Speaker 3: It's you who lingered.

517
00:30:37,599 --> 00:30:39,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you're right.

518
00:30:39,399 --> 00:30:42,159
Speaker 1: You just went back to your normal routine and never

519
00:30:42,199 --> 00:30:43,119
Speaker 1: talked about it again.

520
00:30:43,759 --> 00:30:46,159
Speaker 4: You know, we sort of did, because what would happen

521
00:30:46,319 --> 00:30:50,159
Speaker 4: was we'd get into these fights and we'd sort of

522
00:30:50,679 --> 00:30:54,159
Speaker 4: sleep in different rooms, and then we'd get up and

523
00:30:54,199 --> 00:30:57,199
Speaker 4: go and do the work thing and do the kid thing,

524
00:30:57,839 --> 00:30:59,479
Speaker 4: and we'd kind of put it away as though it

525
00:30:59,559 --> 00:31:00,119
Speaker 4: wasn't there.

526
00:31:00,799 --> 00:31:04,039
Speaker 3: Well do so you go to the friend to get

527
00:31:04,079 --> 00:31:07,439
Speaker 3: advice about how to do something with the marriage, how

528
00:31:07,479 --> 00:31:10,199
Speaker 3: to improve it, and what you here is kind of

529
00:31:10,239 --> 00:31:12,839
Speaker 3: you're on the chopping block. And then you go back

530
00:31:12,879 --> 00:31:15,999
Speaker 3: to Derek and he confirms, yes, you're on the chopping block. Now,

531
00:31:15,999 --> 00:31:19,639
Speaker 3: when you describe what happens thereafter, you keep saying, well,

532
00:31:19,679 --> 00:31:22,879
Speaker 3: we were in limbo. We just went back to normal.

533
00:31:23,199 --> 00:31:25,439
Speaker 3: But you're not in the same boat there. You were

534
00:31:25,439 --> 00:31:28,439
Speaker 3: the one that was trying to save the marriage. He's

535
00:31:28,479 --> 00:31:30,959
Speaker 3: the one that's biding his time to when it would

536
00:31:30,999 --> 00:31:34,039
Speaker 3: be suitable for him, yeah, to end it. And I

537
00:31:34,039 --> 00:31:37,319
Speaker 3: guess I'm wondering what was going on with you during

538
00:31:37,439 --> 00:31:41,199
Speaker 3: that time? Were you thinking about, Okay, if this ends,

539
00:31:41,359 --> 00:31:43,439
Speaker 3: what do I need to do to set myself up

540
00:31:43,479 --> 00:31:46,119
Speaker 3: to protect myself, to be able to rebuild my life

541
00:31:46,199 --> 00:31:48,439
Speaker 3: how much were you thinking about yourself and trying to

542
00:31:48,519 --> 00:31:51,959
Speaker 3: plan and deal with this eventuality that seemed to be coming.

543
00:31:52,799 --> 00:31:59,679
Speaker 4: I think I was still very much wanting for it

544
00:31:59,759 --> 00:32:03,719
Speaker 4: to just go away. It's crazy as it sounds, I

545
00:32:03,759 --> 00:32:08,319
Speaker 4: still wanted his approval. I think emotionally I was thinking, well,

546
00:32:09,119 --> 00:32:11,999
Speaker 4: we can work this out. Because I came from a

547
00:32:11,999 --> 00:32:17,279
Speaker 4: family where my parents were together and still are and

548
00:32:17,359 --> 00:32:20,719
Speaker 4: had some difficult periods but they made it through. It

549
00:32:20,839 --> 00:32:24,719
Speaker 4: was such a bizarre sort of denial. But I also

550
00:32:24,799 --> 00:32:26,839
Speaker 4: don't think I had a very high self esteem at

551
00:32:26,839 --> 00:32:30,039
Speaker 4: this point. I think by this point I was kind

552
00:32:30,079 --> 00:32:34,119
Speaker 4: of terrified to lose them because it was my entire

553
00:32:34,159 --> 00:32:36,679
Speaker 4: life at this point. This is my work, these are

554
00:32:36,679 --> 00:32:42,919
Speaker 4: our friends, my children. It didn't seem possible that all

555
00:32:42,959 --> 00:32:46,879
Speaker 4: that could just stop. When it did, just threw me

556
00:32:46,959 --> 00:32:51,519
Speaker 4: into a complete sort of crisis, you know, because the

557
00:32:51,639 --> 00:32:56,759
Speaker 4: friends chose him, And even though I continued to stay

558
00:32:56,959 --> 00:33:00,319
Speaker 4: with the company after the marriage ended and he moved out,

559
00:33:01,319 --> 00:33:03,519
Speaker 4: I think I had a hard time processing the whole thing.

560
00:33:03,559 --> 00:33:04,719
Speaker 4: I just didn't know what hit me.

561
00:33:05,239 --> 00:33:08,079
Speaker 1: Can you tell us what it was like when the

562
00:33:08,159 --> 00:33:10,919
Speaker 1: divorce papers arrived, when you were served?

563
00:33:11,559 --> 00:33:15,719
Speaker 4: I remember exactly which probably says something. He had just

564
00:33:15,839 --> 00:33:19,959
Speaker 4: had surgery for a problem with his eyes, and I

565
00:33:20,079 --> 00:33:22,439
Speaker 4: had brought him to the surgery, and I was taking

566
00:33:22,479 --> 00:33:25,319
Speaker 4: care of him after and I walked to the mailbox

567
00:33:25,639 --> 00:33:27,559
Speaker 4: while he was sleeping and resting on the couch, and

568
00:33:27,639 --> 00:33:30,799
Speaker 4: I opened it up and it was like a gut punch.

569
00:33:30,999 --> 00:33:33,559
Speaker 4: I mean, it was like the ultimate. I just felt

570
00:33:33,599 --> 00:33:38,959
Speaker 4: like my stomach just felt like whoa, there's wow, like

571
00:33:38,999 --> 00:33:43,359
Speaker 4: the roller coaster. And I didn't walk back to the house.

572
00:33:43,959 --> 00:33:46,959
Speaker 4: The girls were playing. They were there, they were safe,

573
00:33:47,159 --> 00:33:49,319
Speaker 4: and he was on the couch sort of watching them.

574
00:33:49,359 --> 00:33:53,239
Speaker 4: So I took a walk to a neighbor's house real

575
00:33:53,319 --> 00:33:57,159
Speaker 4: quick before I went home, and I showed her, you know,

576
00:33:57,199 --> 00:33:59,399
Speaker 4: and she's like wow, And you know, I just took

577
00:33:59,439 --> 00:34:04,199
Speaker 4: a second to try and absorb the whole thing, because

578
00:34:04,319 --> 00:34:06,519
Speaker 4: number one, it was a shock to get it, but

579
00:34:06,679 --> 00:34:10,879
Speaker 4: number two, it was a horrible agreement. It was completely

580
00:34:10,919 --> 00:34:13,679
Speaker 4: one sided. It kind of made me out to be

581
00:34:13,759 --> 00:34:16,479
Speaker 4: someone who didn't deserve any portion of the life. And

582
00:34:16,559 --> 00:34:20,159
Speaker 4: I was thinking, wow, I mean, it's like in that agreement,

583
00:34:20,879 --> 00:34:24,039
Speaker 4: he was saying that I got no part of the company.

584
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:27,479
Speaker 4: I give up one hundred percent rights, so.

585
00:34:27,439 --> 00:34:31,079
Speaker 1: You're taking care of him as he's recuperating from surgery.

586
00:34:31,759 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 1: He doesn't warn you that he has filed for divorce. No,

587
00:34:36,119 --> 00:34:39,119
Speaker 1: you go to the mailbox as you're caring for him,

588
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,879
Speaker 1: and you get the surprise. You go to the neighbor

589
00:34:43,359 --> 00:34:46,079
Speaker 1: you kind of talk to her. Then you come home

590
00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:49,519
Speaker 1: and what happened to You go back into the screaming,

591
00:34:49,599 --> 00:34:51,359
Speaker 1: yelling fights that you have not.

592
00:34:51,439 --> 00:34:53,399
Speaker 4: That day because he was recovering.

593
00:34:53,679 --> 00:34:55,079
Speaker 3: Well, so are you recovering?

594
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:56,159
Speaker 4: Yeah?

595
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,119
Speaker 1: You come back and there he is on the couch

596
00:34:59,839 --> 00:35:03,039
Speaker 1: and you have this in your hand. This bomb is

597
00:35:03,079 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 1: in your hand, and what do you do.

598
00:35:05,799 --> 00:35:10,599
Speaker 4: I came into the room. I said, I received your letter,

599
00:35:11,759 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 4: just calmly, you know.

600
00:35:14,199 --> 00:35:14,919
Speaker 3: And he.

601
00:35:16,439 --> 00:35:22,399
Speaker 4: Said, uh huh and I and I said, I just

602
00:35:22,519 --> 00:35:29,159
Speaker 4: need a little time. So I'm gonna have our neighbor

603
00:35:29,199 --> 00:35:31,079
Speaker 4: come over sit with the kids for a little bit

604
00:35:31,119 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 4: while you recover. But I just need a little time.

605
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:39,439
Speaker 4: And I remember calling my dad. I remember walking around

606
00:35:39,479 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 4: the neighborhood and crying to my father. It was devastating,

607
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 4: but it was also scary. It was scary because this

608
00:35:48,559 --> 00:35:51,399
Speaker 4: agreement was felt like it was just writing me out

609
00:35:51,439 --> 00:35:51,999
Speaker 4: of my life.

610
00:35:52,559 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 1: I think it was a characteristic of the dynamic between

611
00:35:55,759 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 1: the two of you, where not only did he not

612
00:35:59,439 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 1: communicate that while you were caring for him, as he

613
00:36:01,799 --> 00:36:04,159
Speaker 1: was recuperating from surgery, that you were going to receive

614
00:36:04,199 --> 00:36:06,399
Speaker 1: this letter, he didn't even have the courtesy to give

615
00:36:06,439 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 1: you a heads up. But it was this very, very

616
00:36:10,919 --> 00:36:17,559
Speaker 1: aggressive agreement. There wasn't okay once you came back from

617
00:36:17,559 --> 00:36:20,639
Speaker 1: that friend earlier and you discovered that he had confided

618
00:36:20,679 --> 00:36:23,599
Speaker 1: in his friend that he felt like the marriage was over.

619
00:36:24,199 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 1: There wasn't a conversation between the two of you. And

620
00:36:26,359 --> 00:36:28,639
Speaker 1: I'm saying, neither of you have this conversation. It wasn't

621
00:36:28,679 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 1: just him, that's right about what does this mean for us?

622
00:36:32,599 --> 00:36:35,639
Speaker 1: Because our lives are so intertwined. We've got the company,

623
00:36:35,679 --> 00:36:39,159
Speaker 1: we've got the kids, we have a history together. How

624
00:36:39,199 --> 00:36:44,039
Speaker 1: can we do this in a way that feels loving

625
00:36:44,319 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 1: to each other even though we're parting.

626
00:36:48,399 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And it was very clear. I think that he

627
00:36:57,359 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 4: wanted one thing in this agreement, and that was that

628
00:37:02,359 --> 00:37:07,999
Speaker 4: the company be his. And even though I was told

629
00:37:08,519 --> 00:37:11,879
Speaker 4: by my atturney, me, by my family, by my friends

630
00:37:12,199 --> 00:37:18,159
Speaker 4: that that was not correct, I was unable to fight

631
00:37:18,279 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 4: for that, and I.

632
00:37:19,319 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 3: Conceded what do you mean enable, I still was in.

633
00:37:22,319 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 4: A place where I always believed him first. I think

634
00:37:26,399 --> 00:37:29,879
Speaker 4: this was years of conditioning, you know, in all different ways.

635
00:37:29,999 --> 00:37:33,079
Speaker 4: It's sort of like what he said was the ultimate truth.

636
00:37:33,919 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 4: And what he was saying to me was you really

637
00:37:36,839 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 4: don't have a right to the company, even though I

638
00:37:39,839 --> 00:37:43,359
Speaker 4: had an attorney telling me that's blatantly not true. The

639
00:37:43,359 --> 00:37:46,479
Speaker 4: thought of going to court it was terrifying. Everything else

640
00:37:46,519 --> 00:37:51,079
Speaker 4: we agreed upon, we agreed upon the distribution of possessions,

641
00:37:51,159 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 4: and even the house we agreed to shared custody fifty

642
00:37:54,839 --> 00:37:58,679
Speaker 4: to fifty. But the pain of having these two taken

643
00:37:58,759 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 4: away half the week, all of a sudden, after I

644
00:38:01,279 --> 00:38:04,879
Speaker 4: was really the primary caregiver for their lives. I wasn't

645
00:38:04,879 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 4: ready for that either.

646
00:38:06,439 --> 00:38:08,679
Speaker 1: You know, this is going to sound strange, but sometimes

647
00:38:08,679 --> 00:38:12,039
Speaker 1: when couples fight, it's their way of connecting. It is

648
00:38:12,079 --> 00:38:16,159
Speaker 1: their emotional connection. And I think that you wanted that

649
00:38:16,199 --> 00:38:18,959
Speaker 1: connection with him. You didn't want the marriage to end,

650
00:38:19,599 --> 00:38:21,599
Speaker 1: and even when you were lonely in the marriage, you

651
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,679
Speaker 1: wanted some kind of connection with him, and it seemed

652
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:26,639
Speaker 1: like the only way that you could get some kind

653
00:38:26,639 --> 00:38:30,839
Speaker 1: of emotional response from him was if you started screaming,

654
00:38:30,879 --> 00:38:32,559
Speaker 1: and then he would start screaming, and then you guys

655
00:38:32,599 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 1: would be in it together. And so I look at

656
00:38:36,279 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 1: this more as a way of you not so much

657
00:38:39,959 --> 00:38:42,599
Speaker 1: fighting the battle for the company when you would scream

658
00:38:42,639 --> 00:38:45,999
Speaker 1: at him, but just engaging with him emotionally.

659
00:38:46,639 --> 00:38:47,479
Speaker 4: That makes sense.

660
00:38:47,959 --> 00:38:49,959
Speaker 1: And then if you were to go to court, it

661
00:38:49,959 --> 00:38:52,959
Speaker 1: would not be that emotional engagement. It would be disconnection.

662
00:38:53,199 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 1: It would be the dissolution of your marriage. So when

663
00:38:57,399 --> 00:38:59,679
Speaker 1: you fought with him at home, it was about I'm

664
00:38:59,679 --> 00:39:02,079
Speaker 1: trying to save this I'm trying to save this connection.

665
00:39:02,599 --> 00:39:05,559
Speaker 1: And so when all these unconscious processes are going on,

666
00:39:06,479 --> 00:39:10,199
Speaker 1: our behavior seems really inexplicable. But when you start to

667
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 1: realize what it really represented, you realize I couldn't go

668
00:39:13,799 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 1: to court because I couldn't face the end of the marriage.

669
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,119
Speaker 4: I think that's really true, and I've not thought of

670
00:39:20,159 --> 00:39:22,679
Speaker 4: it that way, but I think it's true. I think

671
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:26,039
Speaker 4: there was always a part of me that was, for

672
00:39:26,079 --> 00:39:31,559
Speaker 4: some reason, wanting him to engage and want to come

673
00:39:31,639 --> 00:39:37,159
Speaker 4: back and approve. And even now, you know, seven years later,

674
00:39:37,479 --> 00:39:39,999
Speaker 4: he can walk in to pick up the kids and

675
00:39:40,039 --> 00:39:42,599
Speaker 4: he cannot look at me at all. It's like I

676
00:39:42,639 --> 00:39:45,639
Speaker 4: don't exist. He can walk into the house and there

677
00:39:45,679 --> 00:39:48,679
Speaker 4: won't be Hello. Do you mind if I run upstairs

678
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,039
Speaker 4: to get our daughter's things? He'll just go. I think

679
00:39:52,119 --> 00:39:58,119
Speaker 4: that's been for me. The most insanely painful part is

680
00:39:58,159 --> 00:40:01,639
Speaker 4: that it's like I wasn't there, And.

681
00:40:01,559 --> 00:40:04,039
Speaker 3: Do you say something to him in those moments, like

682
00:40:04,159 --> 00:40:06,039
Speaker 3: please say hello to me when you come into my house,

683
00:40:06,119 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 3: or something to alert him to the fact that he's being.

684
00:40:09,999 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 4: I have not. He still has the power to intimidate

685
00:40:14,319 --> 00:40:17,439
Speaker 4: me a little bit. And it's a bizarre thing.

686
00:40:17,839 --> 00:40:20,879
Speaker 3: It's not that bizarre. It has been the pattern all along.

687
00:40:21,559 --> 00:40:24,479
Speaker 3: What I think happened to you is that you took

688
00:40:24,559 --> 00:40:28,879
Speaker 3: your eye off you and you had your eye on him,

689
00:40:29,119 --> 00:40:31,119
Speaker 3: and your eye on him was how do I get

690
00:40:31,199 --> 00:40:35,919
Speaker 3: him to be interested, to give me attention, to give

691
00:40:35,999 --> 00:40:40,439
Speaker 3: me appreciation. And I think that part of what happened

692
00:40:40,439 --> 00:40:44,159
Speaker 3: in the divorce when you didn't fight for the company,

693
00:40:44,879 --> 00:40:47,199
Speaker 3: was that there was still a little bit of hope

694
00:40:47,759 --> 00:40:50,399
Speaker 3: of getting that approval from him, of him looking at

695
00:40:50,399 --> 00:40:52,159
Speaker 3: you and going, you know what, we're getting divorced. But

696
00:40:52,199 --> 00:40:54,479
Speaker 3: you're okay, and you're smiling as I say it.

697
00:40:54,679 --> 00:40:56,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know you're right, But I think it's.

698
00:40:56,479 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 3: Going on still, and I think even seven years later,

699
00:41:00,079 --> 00:41:04,479
Speaker 3: you're still wanting in some way whatever approval he can have,

700
00:41:04,559 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 3: which is why it's very painful when he ignores you completely.

701
00:41:07,399 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 3: But it's also why you don't call him on just manners, truly,

702
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,599
Speaker 3: even just manners. I mean, it would not cause a

703
00:41:14,919 --> 00:41:17,399
Speaker 3: huge back to court scenario to say, you know, when

704
00:41:17,439 --> 00:41:19,039
Speaker 3: you come into my house, say loo to me. It's

705
00:41:19,039 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 3: polite even that, And I think that you don't do

706
00:41:23,399 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 3: that because you're still wanting from him something.

707
00:41:28,759 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 4: I think you're absolutely right. The intellectual, logical part of

708
00:41:32,359 --> 00:41:36,519
Speaker 4: me says, this is not a person that's ever going

709
00:41:36,559 --> 00:41:39,959
Speaker 4: to give you what you want. It wasn't happening in

710
00:41:39,999 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 4: those marital situations and dramas that played out. It certainly

711
00:41:43,799 --> 00:41:47,599
Speaker 4: didn't happen after, and I believe that now that he's

712
00:41:47,599 --> 00:41:51,439
Speaker 4: getting remarried, I feel like there's almost this desire on

713
00:41:51,479 --> 00:41:53,399
Speaker 4: his part to really make me disappear.

714
00:41:53,879 --> 00:41:57,959
Speaker 1: You talked about him coming in, and it's almost like

715
00:41:57,999 --> 00:42:02,479
Speaker 1: your marriage didn't exist, that he doesn't even acknowledge you,

716
00:42:03,279 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 1: as though you've been erased. He just took an eraser

717
00:42:06,799 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 1: and erased everything that happened before. And the girls are there,

718
00:42:10,319 --> 00:42:13,639
Speaker 1: but that's all that's left. Yes, But I think that

719
00:42:13,679 --> 00:42:17,879
Speaker 1: happened during the marriage too, that your needs, your desires,

720
00:42:18,399 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 1: your goals were erased. You seem almost surprised, you know.

721
00:42:26,279 --> 00:42:29,919
Speaker 1: Every time this happens, you get rewounded. And it's like

722
00:42:29,959 --> 00:42:32,479
Speaker 1: when someone goes to an empty well and they expect

723
00:42:32,479 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 1: water to be there, and then the next day they

724
00:42:34,879 --> 00:42:37,039
Speaker 1: go back to the well again, but it's empty, and

725
00:42:37,079 --> 00:42:39,959
Speaker 1: they keep going back to the empty well even though

726
00:42:39,999 --> 00:42:43,479
Speaker 1: they know there's no water there. They will remain thirsty.

727
00:42:43,519 --> 00:42:47,839
Speaker 1: They need to find a different water source. I feel

728
00:42:47,839 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 1: like that's what you do with Derek, is that you

729
00:42:51,359 --> 00:42:54,079
Speaker 1: keep expecting that there's going to be water there, and

730
00:42:54,119 --> 00:42:58,399
Speaker 1: you get so wounded when there's not. And that makes

731
00:42:58,439 --> 00:43:02,079
Speaker 1: me wonder about how many times you went back to

732
00:43:02,119 --> 00:43:05,439
Speaker 1: the well during the marriage and wanting I guess the water.

733
00:43:05,479 --> 00:43:10,879
Speaker 1: Then was his approval? Where did that come from? Where

734
00:43:10,919 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 1: in your life did you have that experience where approval

735
00:43:16,799 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 1: was so important to this external approval.

736
00:43:20,879 --> 00:43:24,839
Speaker 4: When I was twelve, I got severely sick with Graves

737
00:43:24,879 --> 00:43:28,959
Speaker 4: disease and it kind of went undetected. I think, you know,

738
00:43:29,119 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 4: my pediatrician at the time was attributing some of the

739
00:43:34,439 --> 00:43:37,679
Speaker 4: problems to puberty even and at the time, my father

740
00:43:37,919 --> 00:43:40,639
Speaker 4: was very much grieving the loss of his brother who

741
00:43:40,639 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 4: had died very suddenly not long before my illness began,

742
00:43:45,559 --> 00:43:48,679
Speaker 4: and that was causing a lot of tension between my parents,

743
00:43:48,919 --> 00:43:51,519
Speaker 4: and they were a little bit more absent than they

744
00:43:51,519 --> 00:43:54,519
Speaker 4: I think they would have been. So I was really

745
00:43:54,559 --> 00:43:58,359
Speaker 4: getting more and more sick. I was getting teased at school.

746
00:43:59,439 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 4: No one wanted to be my friend.

747
00:44:01,439 --> 00:44:02,599
Speaker 1: What were you getting teased for?

748
00:44:03,159 --> 00:44:06,039
Speaker 4: It was my appearance. Because after a while being that sick,

749
00:44:06,079 --> 00:44:09,039
Speaker 4: it started to show I was very skinny and I

750
00:44:09,119 --> 00:44:13,159
Speaker 4: have I'd really sunk in in eyes. And what ended

751
00:44:13,199 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 4: up happening is they said, from what is called a

752
00:44:16,279 --> 00:44:19,799
Speaker 4: thyroid storm, where you can go into some organ failure,

753
00:44:20,359 --> 00:44:22,999
Speaker 4: you know, and you can die. And it just got

754
00:44:22,999 --> 00:44:28,159
Speaker 4: that close. And in that time I fought a lot

755
00:44:28,199 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 4: with my mom. I don't know if she understood why

756
00:44:30,359 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 4: she had this kid who couldn't get her act together,

757
00:44:32,319 --> 00:44:34,999
Speaker 4: or couldn't wake up for school, couldn't get good grades,

758
00:44:35,799 --> 00:44:39,039
Speaker 4: you know. I think to her I was really becoming

759
00:44:39,079 --> 00:44:43,559
Speaker 4: a real problem, and it wasn't met with the compassion

760
00:44:43,679 --> 00:44:48,599
Speaker 4: or empathy at that point it was more anger, like Derek, Yeah,

761
00:44:49,199 --> 00:44:53,079
Speaker 4: you know, it's timely because you know, as I wrote,

762
00:44:53,119 --> 00:44:58,199
Speaker 4: the wedding is coming up, the second marriage for my ex.

763
00:44:58,959 --> 00:45:03,479
Speaker 4: It's in six weeks, and it's really been hard. And

764
00:45:03,759 --> 00:45:08,199
Speaker 4: I've been kind of denying myself that that sort of compassion,

765
00:45:08,399 --> 00:45:11,439
Speaker 4: as in the face of just saying, oh, it's fine,

766
00:45:11,439 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 4: I'll be it's good, I can, I'm glad for you know,

767
00:45:14,559 --> 00:45:17,519
Speaker 4: I'm happy for him, when really it's just it's painful

768
00:45:18,079 --> 00:45:21,399
Speaker 4: on a million levels. And you know, my younger daughter

769
00:45:21,399 --> 00:45:23,559
Speaker 4: will get excited and say, oh yeah, and we were

770
00:45:23,599 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 4: getting the dresses. It's going to be a very similar

771
00:45:26,559 --> 00:45:32,959
Speaker 4: kind of wedding and with a similar group. And I

772
00:45:33,159 --> 00:45:35,519
Speaker 4: don't want to shut her down because this is a

773
00:45:35,559 --> 00:45:38,799
Speaker 4: happy thing for her and this should be something that

774
00:45:38,839 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 4: they celebrate. But it's hard for me.

775
00:45:41,759 --> 00:45:44,639
Speaker 3: Where will you be when the wedding takes place?

776
00:45:46,679 --> 00:45:49,199
Speaker 4: I was thinking that I should be out of town,

777
00:45:49,319 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 4: like I was actually considering going someplace else. I don't

778
00:45:56,319 --> 00:46:00,519
Speaker 4: think that I want to be here. I don't. I don't.

779
00:46:00,559 --> 00:46:02,839
Speaker 4: I mean I thought about that. And they are going

780
00:46:02,879 --> 00:46:05,599
Speaker 4: to go on a trip after all together. They're kind

781
00:46:05,599 --> 00:46:07,679
Speaker 4: of doing what they're calling a family moon. So they're

782
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,119
Speaker 4: going to do a trip all together the following week,

783
00:46:10,119 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 4: which is nice I think for everybody to kind of

784
00:46:12,399 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 4: merge and assimilate. So I was thinking of either going

785
00:46:16,279 --> 00:46:20,479
Speaker 4: away during that or going away the day of and

786
00:46:20,679 --> 00:46:24,359
Speaker 4: just being out of town. I'm not sure where, but

787
00:46:24,839 --> 00:46:26,079
Speaker 4: it would be hard to be here.

788
00:46:26,639 --> 00:46:30,159
Speaker 1: I'm curious about, as we're talking about Derek getting married,

789
00:46:30,319 --> 00:46:33,199
Speaker 1: what has your romantic life been like since the divorce.

790
00:46:34,079 --> 00:46:38,679
Speaker 4: So I dated some people since the divorce, and I

791
00:46:38,679 --> 00:46:44,119
Speaker 4: think I have kept myself from getting seriously involved with anybody.

792
00:46:44,439 --> 00:46:47,679
Speaker 4: It's been me not wanting, not feeling like I can

793
00:46:47,839 --> 00:46:49,079
Speaker 4: engage that way again.

794
00:46:50,039 --> 00:46:53,039
Speaker 1: Yet you know this idea of keeping distance between you

795
00:46:53,359 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 1: and a potential romantic partner that was there before Derek.

796
00:46:58,759 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 1: So in college you were a little bit uncertain. The

797
00:47:02,839 --> 00:47:05,159
Speaker 1: boyfriend wanted you to move across the country, and there

798
00:47:05,199 --> 00:47:08,879
Speaker 1: was a logistical thing about I'm too young. Then Derek

799
00:47:09,079 --> 00:47:12,159
Speaker 1: was like, Hey, come meet my friends, come meet my family,

800
00:47:12,199 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 1: and you were like, I don't know. I think that

801
00:47:15,879 --> 00:47:19,519
Speaker 1: there's something in there about protecting yourself, and I'm not

802
00:47:19,599 --> 00:47:24,479
Speaker 1: sure what you're protecting yourself from. Do you have any

803
00:47:24,519 --> 00:47:25,359
Speaker 1: ideas about that?

804
00:47:26,559 --> 00:47:28,879
Speaker 4: And that's really interesting. But you know, and I hadn't

805
00:47:28,959 --> 00:47:33,839
Speaker 4: looked at the pattern like that. It could be back

806
00:47:33,879 --> 00:47:38,119
Speaker 4: to that childhood thing. I mean, I just think that

807
00:47:38,119 --> 00:47:42,119
Speaker 4: that sense, that incredible sense of loneliness at that time

808
00:47:44,079 --> 00:47:46,519
Speaker 4: is just very hard to shake.

809
00:47:46,799 --> 00:47:48,959
Speaker 3: And yet you were in a marriage for many years

810
00:47:48,959 --> 00:47:49,919
Speaker 3: in which you were lonely.

811
00:47:50,279 --> 00:47:53,519
Speaker 4: Absolutely, I wonder if I keep people at arm's length

812
00:47:53,559 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 4: in general.

813
00:47:54,599 --> 00:47:56,439
Speaker 1: I think it's going to be really important for you

814
00:47:56,479 --> 00:48:01,159
Speaker 1: to understand more about how and why you keep people

815
00:48:01,199 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 1: at arm's length. I don't think it's a coincidence that

816
00:48:04,359 --> 00:48:06,799
Speaker 1: you married Derek because you couldn't get close to him.

817
00:48:07,039 --> 00:48:10,039
Speaker 1: He wasn't someone who was available in that way with you,

818
00:48:12,199 --> 00:48:15,559
Speaker 1: and so it was very convenient because you weren't going

819
00:48:15,599 --> 00:48:17,559
Speaker 1: to get tested in that way. You weren't going to

820
00:48:17,559 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 1: have someone come to you and say, hey, I need

821
00:48:19,279 --> 00:48:20,359
Speaker 1: you to show up more here.

822
00:48:21,199 --> 00:48:24,479
Speaker 4: That's a good point. I've been looking at what happens

823
00:48:24,479 --> 00:48:27,599
Speaker 4: when my daughters go off to school, you know, and

824
00:48:27,639 --> 00:48:30,439
Speaker 4: that's not so far away. One who's two years away

825
00:48:30,479 --> 00:48:33,639
Speaker 4: and the other will be quickly following. And I'm thinking,

826
00:48:33,999 --> 00:48:36,879
Speaker 4: what is my life going to look like at this point,

827
00:48:37,039 --> 00:48:40,519
Speaker 4: you know, And what do I have to do to

828
00:48:40,759 --> 00:48:44,039
Speaker 4: kind of build a life, because I'm starting to think

829
00:48:44,079 --> 00:48:45,999
Speaker 4: I've put myself in a bit of a box here.

830
00:48:46,359 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 1: You mentioned that a lot of the friends ended up

831
00:48:50,039 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 1: staying friends with Derek and that you lost some of

832
00:48:53,319 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 1: those connections. What has happened in the last seven years

833
00:48:57,839 --> 00:49:01,639
Speaker 1: around rebuilding or building new friendships.

834
00:49:01,919 --> 00:49:08,199
Speaker 4: I have a good group of five women in particular

835
00:49:08,319 --> 00:49:10,959
Speaker 4: that are very close to me. But I will tell

836
00:49:10,959 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 4: you one thing I have not done since the divorce

837
00:49:14,359 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 4: is entertain in my house at all. So I feel

838
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:22,519
Speaker 4: like I need to be better about that. I've been

839
00:49:22,559 --> 00:49:24,959
Speaker 4: nervous and making excuses like, oh, I need to paint,

840
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,519
Speaker 4: or I should buy some different furniture, I should fix

841
00:49:28,599 --> 00:49:32,199
Speaker 4: this or fix that. I can't entertain until I do that.

842
00:49:32,279 --> 00:49:35,919
Speaker 4: But I really think that's just me keeping again the distance,

843
00:49:36,479 --> 00:49:41,559
Speaker 4: because entertaining and bringing people into your space creates bonds.

844
00:49:41,599 --> 00:49:44,159
Speaker 4: And even when I dated people, I was very reluctant

845
00:49:44,199 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 4: to have people in my space. I just kept people out.

846
00:49:48,399 --> 00:49:51,399
Speaker 4: And I think it's going to be really important to

847
00:49:51,639 --> 00:49:53,679
Speaker 4: try and get past that.

848
00:49:54,359 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 1: What happened to your photography? What would prevent you from

849
00:49:57,959 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 1: going and taking the pictures?

850
00:49:59,639 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 4: You know, there's always just part of me that looks

851
00:50:01,799 --> 00:50:06,639
Speaker 4: back and thinks, Wow, so much time has gone by,

852
00:50:06,679 --> 00:50:10,319
Speaker 4: Could I be anything resembled what I was before this

853
00:50:10,359 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 4: whole marital thing happened. And I think I've kind of

854
00:50:13,759 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 4: resisted getting back to some of those things I did prior,

855
00:50:18,079 --> 00:50:21,679
Speaker 4: but I would probably enjoy it and enjoy all of

856
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 4: the artistic things I used to do.

857
00:50:23,879 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 1: You said you've dated a few people. Can you talk

858
00:50:26,799 --> 00:50:29,919
Speaker 1: a little bit more about how long those relationships lasted

859
00:50:29,999 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 1: and what happened.

860
00:50:31,559 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 4: The first person I dated after this split up was

861
00:50:34,279 --> 00:50:37,559
Speaker 4: probably about four months down the line, and we met

862
00:50:37,599 --> 00:50:41,519
Speaker 4: because our kids were at the same school and had

863
00:50:41,519 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 4: a really good relationship. The funny thing is I felt

864
00:50:44,839 --> 00:50:49,599
Speaker 4: like he wanted so much of my free time. I

865
00:50:49,639 --> 00:50:52,639
Speaker 4: think he was ready to take that relationship to the

866
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:56,119
Speaker 4: next level. We dated for two and a half years.

867
00:50:56,319 --> 00:51:00,039
Speaker 4: He was looking at possibly looking at moving in together.

868
00:51:00,439 --> 00:51:02,039
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I wasn't expecting the two and a half

869
00:51:02,119 --> 00:51:05,079
Speaker 1: years Withven how you described it. And the reason I

870
00:51:05,119 --> 00:51:08,399
Speaker 1: say that is that he was asking for your time

871
00:51:08,439 --> 00:51:10,359
Speaker 1: because he was trying to create a life with you.

872
00:51:10,839 --> 00:51:12,439
Speaker 4: Yes, and I was really struggling.

873
00:51:15,679 --> 00:51:18,839
Speaker 1: We're laughing with you. You're laughing as well, because I

874
00:51:18,919 --> 00:51:21,039
Speaker 1: thought you were going to say yeah, two and I

875
00:51:21,039 --> 00:51:23,039
Speaker 1: thought months was going to follow that, not two and

876
00:51:23,119 --> 00:51:28,359
Speaker 1: a half years. And when people get to that point,

877
00:51:28,479 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 1: they want to integrate their lives, and it sounds like

878
00:51:32,319 --> 00:51:35,599
Speaker 1: you are really reluctant. And the irony of this is

879
00:51:35,639 --> 00:51:38,119
Speaker 1: that when you were married to Derek, your big complaint

880
00:51:38,199 --> 00:51:41,039
Speaker 1: was I never see you. I don't have enough of

881
00:51:41,079 --> 00:51:44,319
Speaker 1: your time. I want more of you. Because you wanted

882
00:51:44,399 --> 00:51:49,079
Speaker 1: what this boyfriend wanted, which is a very reasonable request.

883
00:51:49,879 --> 00:51:53,199
Speaker 1: And so do you see it now that what he

884
00:51:53,279 --> 00:51:57,039
Speaker 1: was asking for was probably quite reasonable given the length

885
00:51:57,039 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 1: of the relationship and where he wanted it to go.

886
00:52:00,879 --> 00:52:03,559
Speaker 4: Absolutely, I do as you say this. It's like I

887
00:52:03,559 --> 00:52:08,959
Speaker 4: can feel that block. Interestingly, the second person I dated

888
00:52:09,399 --> 00:52:14,519
Speaker 4: after that relationship ended was a person who was in

889
00:52:14,559 --> 00:52:19,079
Speaker 4: a situation where he was still married though living in

890
00:52:19,159 --> 00:52:20,559
Speaker 4: separate parts of the house.

891
00:52:21,039 --> 00:52:22,159
Speaker 1: And that works great for you.

892
00:52:22,839 --> 00:52:27,479
Speaker 4: Unacceptable to most people, including my friends, right, but it's

893
00:52:27,479 --> 00:52:28,199
Speaker 4: perfect for you.

894
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:31,599
Speaker 3: We have to laugh, right, I'm laughing at how well

895
00:52:31,639 --> 00:52:32,639
Speaker 3: you know yourself in that way.

896
00:52:32,919 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, But and yet you know that worked right

897
00:52:37,839 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 4: because the arm's length was built into the relationship.

898
00:52:41,759 --> 00:52:44,159
Speaker 1: It was so how did that stop working?

899
00:52:44,919 --> 00:52:47,639
Speaker 4: I seem to have this inner conflict where it works

900
00:52:47,639 --> 00:52:49,759
Speaker 4: and then it doesn't, and then I fight for it

901
00:52:49,799 --> 00:52:53,199
Speaker 4: being different. So it's this sort of dance where I

902
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 4: would say, you know, this is taking too long. You

903
00:52:55,319 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 4: really need to adjust the situation. And we went back

904
00:52:59,759 --> 00:53:02,039
Speaker 4: and forth a little bit. We would end the relationship

905
00:53:02,039 --> 00:53:04,479
Speaker 4: and then we would resume the relationship, and end the

906
00:53:04,559 --> 00:53:09,199
Speaker 4: relationship and resume it. In one of those periods where

907
00:53:09,199 --> 00:53:12,879
Speaker 4: we ended the relationship, I dated another person and the

908
00:53:12,959 --> 00:53:16,079
Speaker 4: same thing happened. He was so available I couldn't take it,

909
00:53:16,119 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 4: and I ended that. So definitely seeing the pattern, I

910
00:53:20,759 --> 00:53:24,199
Speaker 4: still get together with the person who was married. We're

911
00:53:24,279 --> 00:53:27,839
Speaker 4: in more of a friendship place, and we kind of

912
00:53:28,279 --> 00:53:32,199
Speaker 4: try to keep it on a friendship level until he

913
00:53:32,519 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 4: does make a significant move out of the situation he's in.

914
00:53:37,479 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 4: And he's even said to me, I'm afraid that you're

915
00:53:39,359 --> 00:53:41,439
Speaker 4: not gonna want me when I do that, And you know,

916
00:53:41,479 --> 00:53:43,039
Speaker 4: I don't have the heart to say, well, that's not,

917
00:53:43,639 --> 00:53:45,799
Speaker 4: you know, unfounded.

918
00:53:45,199 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 1: But and you can say you're right, you could say

919
00:53:47,799 --> 00:53:48,559
Speaker 1: that may be true.

920
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:51,479
Speaker 3: I won't afraid you shouldn't be my God, I.

921
00:53:51,399 --> 00:53:53,279
Speaker 4: Don't want to go down that path continuously.

922
00:53:53,919 --> 00:53:56,519
Speaker 1: We call what you're doing creating your own abandonment.

923
00:53:57,879 --> 00:54:00,799
Speaker 4: YEP, I think that makes so much sense.

924
00:54:07,119 --> 00:54:10,079
Speaker 1: So, Audrey, we have some advice for you. And we

925
00:54:10,079 --> 00:54:13,479
Speaker 1: were thinking about how much time you spend and how

926
00:54:13,559 --> 00:54:17,199
Speaker 1: much energy you spend going to the well that is dry,

927
00:54:18,079 --> 00:54:21,039
Speaker 1: and we would like you to go where the water is,

928
00:54:21,639 --> 00:54:23,519
Speaker 1: and so we have a few tasks that we think

929
00:54:23,559 --> 00:54:28,119
Speaker 1: will help accomplish that. And the first one is this

930
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:30,879
Speaker 1: guy that you were dating that you are now in

931
00:54:30,919 --> 00:54:35,999
Speaker 1: this friendship with, the sort of friends with benefits relationship with.

932
00:54:37,439 --> 00:54:39,799
Speaker 1: We think that that's a dry well, and we think

933
00:54:39,839 --> 00:54:42,399
Speaker 1: that spending time with him might help you with some

934
00:54:42,479 --> 00:54:46,119
Speaker 1: of your loneliness in a moment when you want some companionship,

935
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:50,279
Speaker 1: but it takes away from the energy that you're going

936
00:54:50,279 --> 00:54:53,039
Speaker 1: to need to go where the water is, in other words,

937
00:54:53,119 --> 00:54:56,879
Speaker 1: to find a relationship where the person is available and

938
00:54:56,919 --> 00:55:01,039
Speaker 1: that you're willing to show up for that. So we

939
00:55:01,159 --> 00:55:04,199
Speaker 1: think that you should not be in contact with him

940
00:55:04,599 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 1: at this time.

941
00:55:06,919 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 4: So that's the first task understood.

942
00:55:09,399 --> 00:55:13,039
Speaker 1: The second thing is that you spend a lot of

943
00:55:13,159 --> 00:55:19,839
Speaker 1: time thinking about Derek and what he thinks about you,

944
00:55:20,479 --> 00:55:23,159
Speaker 1: how he thinks about you, whether he thinks about you,

945
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:27,599
Speaker 1: and still kind of looking for his approval, and we

946
00:55:27,679 --> 00:55:30,639
Speaker 1: think again that that is a dry well. It doesn't

947
00:55:30,679 --> 00:55:33,119
Speaker 1: really matter what he thinks. What he's not thinking, we'll

948
00:55:33,159 --> 00:55:38,239
Speaker 1: never know, but most important, it's not that relevant. And

949
00:55:38,319 --> 00:55:40,519
Speaker 1: so you were talking about how you've never entertained in

950
00:55:40,559 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 1: your home and how you'd like to be doing that,

951
00:55:44,519 --> 00:55:50,519
Speaker 1: and we think that a really great idea is to

952
00:55:50,599 --> 00:55:54,839
Speaker 1: make your first dinner party be the night of the wedding,

953
00:55:56,839 --> 00:56:00,079
Speaker 1: so that you have lots of water around you that night.

954
00:56:00,359 --> 00:56:02,279
Speaker 1: It can be whatever you want it to be. It

955
00:56:02,319 --> 00:56:05,479
Speaker 1: can be two people, it could be five people, but

956
00:56:05,559 --> 00:56:07,519
Speaker 1: it will be the first time that you are entertaining

957
00:56:07,599 --> 00:56:12,599
Speaker 1: in your space with people who are symbolically water for you.

958
00:56:13,039 --> 00:56:15,079
Speaker 1: And what we'd like you to do this week, since

959
00:56:15,119 --> 00:56:16,839
Speaker 1: that's six weeks away, is we'd like you to start

960
00:56:16,839 --> 00:56:19,439
Speaker 1: the planning. Who are you going to invite, what will

961
00:56:19,439 --> 00:56:23,919
Speaker 1: it be like, what's the menu going to be? And

962
00:56:24,159 --> 00:56:29,119
Speaker 1: report back to us, Okay, And then while Derek is

963
00:56:29,119 --> 00:56:32,679
Speaker 1: off on his family moon, we would like you to

964
00:56:32,759 --> 00:56:36,799
Speaker 1: pick a friend that you would like to travel with,

965
00:56:37,519 --> 00:56:40,039
Speaker 1: and we would like you to get a camera, and

966
00:56:40,079 --> 00:56:41,799
Speaker 1: we'd like you to go someplace. You said you do

967
00:56:41,879 --> 00:56:46,119
Speaker 1: travel photography. We'd like you to go someplace where you

968
00:56:46,119 --> 00:56:50,559
Speaker 1: would like to be a photographer, so that you have

969
00:56:50,639 --> 00:56:54,879
Speaker 1: the company of someone that you enjoy and who gives

970
00:56:54,919 --> 00:56:56,559
Speaker 1: you the space that you need, because we know that

971
00:56:56,559 --> 00:56:58,959
Speaker 1: that's important to you. So someone that you're really comfortable

972
00:56:58,959 --> 00:57:01,399
Speaker 1: with in that way and gives you the space to

973
00:57:01,479 --> 00:57:03,839
Speaker 1: go and take the pictures that you want to take,

974
00:57:04,919 --> 00:57:07,839
Speaker 1: and somewhere where you're really excited to do this, the

975
00:57:07,879 --> 00:57:09,679
Speaker 1: way you were excited in your twenty us to go

976
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:13,599
Speaker 1: someplace and take pictures. We want you to pick that place, okay,

977
00:57:14,319 --> 00:57:17,199
Speaker 1: and so that will be you creating your own wells

978
00:57:17,439 --> 00:57:18,439
Speaker 1: that have water in that.

979
00:57:19,079 --> 00:57:21,399
Speaker 3: We were also thinking about that year when you were

980
00:57:21,439 --> 00:57:26,559
Speaker 3: sick as a kid between twelve and thirteen and undiagnosed,

981
00:57:27,119 --> 00:57:31,039
Speaker 3: and he thought about how lonely that must have been,

982
00:57:31,559 --> 00:57:34,359
Speaker 3: and we think that probably a lot of scars there

983
00:57:34,439 --> 00:57:38,199
Speaker 3: that haven't fully healed, and so we would like you

984
00:57:38,839 --> 00:57:41,879
Speaker 3: to go back to therapy. We want you to do

985
00:57:42,079 --> 00:57:45,639
Speaker 3: some work around that year and its impact so that

986
00:57:45,679 --> 00:57:47,999
Speaker 3: you can heal from that fully. And we also think

987
00:57:48,799 --> 00:57:51,599
Speaker 3: that if you were dating around that time, it would

988
00:57:51,599 --> 00:57:55,559
Speaker 3: be really helpful to be in therapy for that as well,

989
00:57:55,599 --> 00:57:58,799
Speaker 3: because you could talk through some of those visceral blocks

990
00:57:59,599 --> 00:58:03,199
Speaker 3: that you feel at the idea of getting too close

991
00:58:03,479 --> 00:58:06,519
Speaker 3: of moving it to a more serious relationship.

992
00:58:06,879 --> 00:58:09,479
Speaker 1: And the thing that therapy can help you with is

993
00:58:09,519 --> 00:58:12,279
Speaker 1: this idea of I'm lonely, but I don't want to

994
00:58:12,319 --> 00:58:17,439
Speaker 1: get too close, And that's a real internal conflict for you.

995
00:58:18,319 --> 00:58:20,199
Speaker 1: How am I trying to protect myself here in a

996
00:58:20,239 --> 00:58:22,399
Speaker 1: way that maybe isn't protective, but that will leave me

997
00:58:22,479 --> 00:58:26,359
Speaker 1: feeling even lonelier. And so this week, do a little

998
00:58:26,399 --> 00:58:30,239
Speaker 1: research and see if you can make an appointment with

999
00:58:30,319 --> 00:58:31,039
Speaker 1: a therapist.

1000
00:58:31,999 --> 00:58:37,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm willing to do all those things. Wonderful, absolutely will.

1001
00:58:37,919 --> 00:58:41,839
Speaker 4: Thank you. I really appreciate it, and an incredible talk

1002
00:58:41,879 --> 00:58:45,399
Speaker 4: and just already so many insights that I just hadn't

1003
00:58:45,399 --> 00:58:48,119
Speaker 4: thought about, So very very appreciative. Thank you.

1004
00:58:56,479 --> 00:58:59,599
Speaker 3: I think this is one of these situations where Audrey

1005
00:59:00,279 --> 00:59:04,439
Speaker 3: walked in with one narrative in her head about her

1006
00:59:04,479 --> 00:59:08,199
Speaker 3: story and truly walked out with another one. It makes

1007
00:59:08,239 --> 00:59:10,959
Speaker 3: me really believe that she will follow through on these

1008
00:59:10,999 --> 00:59:14,359
Speaker 3: assignments and she will do so well because I think

1009
00:59:14,399 --> 00:59:15,319
Speaker 3: she really got it.

1010
00:59:15,759 --> 00:59:18,359
Speaker 1: What happens is people get stuck in the story. They

1011
00:59:18,359 --> 00:59:21,119
Speaker 1: get stuck in the faulty narrative, and that's why they

1012
00:59:21,119 --> 00:59:23,119
Speaker 1: can't move forward. And once she was able to see

1013
00:59:24,079 --> 00:59:26,639
Speaker 1: there might be more to this story that I'm not seeing,

1014
00:59:26,719 --> 00:59:28,799
Speaker 1: There might be other ways of looking at this. In fact,

1015
00:59:28,839 --> 00:59:31,679
Speaker 1: I might have a role in this too, And to

1016
00:59:31,719 --> 00:59:34,639
Speaker 1: be able to hold that without saying and it's all

1017
00:59:34,679 --> 00:59:37,679
Speaker 1: my fault, but to be able to say Derek had

1018
00:59:37,679 --> 00:59:39,839
Speaker 1: a role in this, but I brought something to this

1019
00:59:39,919 --> 00:59:42,279
Speaker 1: marriage as well. And if I'm going to move forward,

1020
00:59:42,359 --> 00:59:45,199
Speaker 1: I need to understand what has been holding me up,

1021
00:59:45,279 --> 00:59:48,639
Speaker 1: not only when I was married to Derek, but before then,

1022
00:59:49,039 --> 00:59:51,119
Speaker 1: and then also since then, in the seven years that

1023
00:59:51,159 --> 00:59:54,359
Speaker 1: have passed. Often, as therapists, we're curious to know when

1024
00:59:54,399 --> 00:59:56,719
Speaker 1: we meet someone, not just why are you here, but

1025
00:59:56,879 --> 01:00:00,919
Speaker 1: why now? And I think for Audrey it might seem

1026
01:00:01,039 --> 01:00:03,319
Speaker 1: like the reason she was writing to us now was

1027
01:00:03,359 --> 01:00:06,639
Speaker 1: because of Derek's upcoming wedding, and maybe that was the

1028
01:00:06,639 --> 01:00:09,799
Speaker 1: impetus for her to write to us, But I also

1029
01:00:09,799 --> 01:00:13,199
Speaker 1: think internally there was a readiness for her to say,

1030
01:00:13,599 --> 01:00:16,399
Speaker 1: what might be going on here? How can I move

1031
01:00:16,479 --> 01:00:19,679
Speaker 1: past this in a way that maybe she wasn't ready

1032
01:00:19,679 --> 01:00:23,999
Speaker 1: for earlier, so I think she was ready, and I

1033
01:00:24,039 --> 01:00:28,159
Speaker 1: think she's going to be very motivated to try some

1034
01:00:28,199 --> 01:00:29,239
Speaker 1: of the advice that we gave her.

1035
01:00:29,319 --> 01:00:38,639
Speaker 3: This week, you're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be

1036
01:00:38,679 --> 01:00:39,799
Speaker 3: back after a quick break.

1037
01:00:52,039 --> 01:00:54,559
Speaker 1: Well, guy, we heard back from Audrey and we gave

1038
01:00:54,559 --> 01:00:56,759
Speaker 1: her some tasks that would help her to take her

1039
01:00:56,799 --> 01:01:00,199
Speaker 1: focus away from all of that rumination about her ex

1040
01:01:00,319 --> 01:01:03,079
Speaker 1: husband and to focus instead on herself.

1041
01:01:03,759 --> 01:01:06,759
Speaker 4: Hi, Dian Laurie, This is Audrey. I was calling to

1042
01:01:06,839 --> 01:01:10,319
Speaker 4: follow up on the assignments you gave last week after

1043
01:01:10,399 --> 01:01:12,639
Speaker 4: our talk. So first, let me tell you that I

1044
01:01:12,679 --> 01:01:17,119
Speaker 4: have a therapist appointment scheduled for this coming Friday. I'm

1045
01:01:17,159 --> 01:01:19,839
Speaker 4: really looking forward to that, so it felt good to

1046
01:01:19,919 --> 01:01:24,319
Speaker 4: make that appointment. Second was the talk with my married friend.

1047
01:01:24,959 --> 01:01:30,919
Speaker 4: That went pretty well because I tried to focus mostly

1048
01:01:31,039 --> 01:01:34,799
Speaker 4: on me and my patterns, and I didn't want to

1049
01:01:34,839 --> 01:01:37,639
Speaker 4: go into it and make it feel like an attack

1050
01:01:37,719 --> 01:01:40,919
Speaker 4: on his situation, because I really thought the important thing

1051
01:01:41,039 --> 01:01:45,039
Speaker 4: was to express that my own patterns have been ones

1052
01:01:45,079 --> 01:01:48,399
Speaker 4: that don't necessarily get me to a place of complete

1053
01:01:48,439 --> 01:01:52,479
Speaker 4: and full relationships, and that that has been unhealthy for me,

1054
01:01:52,919 --> 01:01:55,199
Speaker 4: and that what I'm really trying to do going forward

1055
01:01:55,439 --> 01:02:00,079
Speaker 4: is pave the way for complete relationships where I can

1056
01:02:00,119 --> 01:02:02,959
Speaker 4: give one hundred percent and get it. And he was

1057
01:02:03,079 --> 01:02:07,719
Speaker 4: supportive because I didn't try to make it about blaming

1058
01:02:07,799 --> 01:02:12,639
Speaker 4: him or again honey in on his situation. So that

1059
01:02:12,799 --> 01:02:15,799
Speaker 4: was difficult because I really care about this person, but

1060
01:02:15,959 --> 01:02:20,199
Speaker 4: I feel good about it. The fun things. The first

1061
01:02:20,359 --> 01:02:22,439
Speaker 4: thing was the dinner party, and that took a little

1062
01:02:22,479 --> 01:02:25,999
Speaker 4: thought because I had to really think about the friends

1063
01:02:26,039 --> 01:02:29,679
Speaker 4: that I wanted to include and who I thought would

1064
01:02:29,719 --> 01:02:32,999
Speaker 4: work well together. But I think the most important thing

1065
01:02:33,039 --> 01:02:36,239
Speaker 4: about it was how nice it felt to envision people

1066
01:02:36,359 --> 01:02:39,879
Speaker 4: in my home that I was hosting. So as I

1067
01:02:39,959 --> 01:02:43,199
Speaker 4: sort of narrowed my list, this first christening of my

1068
01:02:43,319 --> 01:02:47,359
Speaker 4: house again is a knee house, I thought about how

1069
01:02:47,479 --> 01:02:50,559
Speaker 4: nice it's going to be to have people in my home,

1070
01:02:50,879 --> 01:02:56,719
Speaker 4: and that has felt good ever since starting the planning.

1071
01:02:57,079 --> 01:03:01,839
Speaker 4: So I've been sending out invitations to see who's available,

1072
01:03:02,399 --> 01:03:06,319
Speaker 4: and we're looking forward to making more plans. The trip

1073
01:03:06,679 --> 01:03:09,719
Speaker 4: is pretty exciting. Right away. I kind of thought that

1074
01:03:09,919 --> 01:03:12,599
Speaker 4: my sisters would be people i'd like to travel with.

1075
01:03:13,599 --> 01:03:17,039
Speaker 4: They're not both available for this particular data I'm looking at,

1076
01:03:17,119 --> 01:03:20,239
Speaker 4: but my older sister is, and so we're talking about

1077
01:03:20,279 --> 01:03:24,079
Speaker 4: doing a mutual photo trip and writing trip to the

1078
01:03:24,119 --> 01:03:26,799
Speaker 4: mountainous part of North Carolina. It's a place we both

1079
01:03:26,879 --> 01:03:30,319
Speaker 4: really want to go to and see, and we're really

1080
01:03:30,439 --> 01:03:34,039
Speaker 4: kind of getting excited about rekindling both of our artistic

1081
01:03:34,999 --> 01:03:38,879
Speaker 4: loves in that place. I'm thinking a lot less about

1082
01:03:39,199 --> 01:03:41,759
Speaker 4: the wedding and a lot more about things I can

1083
01:03:41,799 --> 01:03:45,519
Speaker 4: be doing and living my own life and getting healthier.

1084
01:03:46,039 --> 01:03:49,479
Speaker 4: It's already starting to shift my perspective and get myself

1085
01:03:49,519 --> 01:03:53,279
Speaker 4: focused much more on me. So thank you so much,

1086
01:03:53,519 --> 01:03:57,239
Speaker 4: because I really think that this was a terrific starting

1087
01:03:57,279 --> 01:04:00,279
Speaker 4: point for me, and I'm really looking forward to beginning

1088
01:04:00,439 --> 01:04:04,199
Speaker 4: that therapy and putting my attention in the right places,

1089
01:04:04,719 --> 01:04:07,199
Speaker 4: surrounding myself with water. Thank you.

1090
01:04:13,039 --> 01:04:16,239
Speaker 1: I love how Audrey brought back the metaphor of the

1091
01:04:16,359 --> 01:04:20,799
Speaker 1: dry well and the water. I think that really helped

1092
01:04:20,799 --> 01:04:26,119
Speaker 1: her to realize that she had been thirsty for all

1093
01:04:26,159 --> 01:04:29,679
Speaker 1: of these things for so long, and she really just

1094
01:04:29,879 --> 01:04:32,279
Speaker 1: dived right into our assignment.

1095
01:04:32,479 --> 01:04:35,239
Speaker 3: And what I love is that she decided to reconnect

1096
01:04:35,239 --> 01:04:39,199
Speaker 3: with her home by entertaining to reconnect with friends like

1097
01:04:39,239 --> 01:04:42,119
Speaker 3: the hub of a social activity in the dinner that

1098
01:04:42,159 --> 01:04:45,279
Speaker 3: she's doing, and to go away on that creative retreat

1099
01:04:45,799 --> 01:04:47,799
Speaker 3: with her sister. It's a great reminder you don't have

1100
01:04:47,839 --> 01:04:50,159
Speaker 3: to go away with another photographer if you're a photographer,

1101
01:04:50,159 --> 01:04:51,999
Speaker 3: another writer, if you're a writer, you can just go

1102
01:04:52,039 --> 01:04:54,799
Speaker 3: away with someone in which you both do the creative thing.

1103
01:04:55,359 --> 01:04:58,359
Speaker 3: I think she planned a perfect vacation and the dinner

1104
01:04:58,399 --> 01:04:59,519
Speaker 3: sounds like it's going to be great.

1105
01:04:59,599 --> 01:05:00,999
Speaker 1: And there was a lot of letting go that we

1106
01:05:01,039 --> 01:05:03,319
Speaker 1: asked her to do. Part of it was how are

1107
01:05:03,359 --> 01:05:06,799
Speaker 1: you going to manage the remarriage of your ex? And

1108
01:05:06,879 --> 01:05:08,919
Speaker 1: part of it is how are you going to let

1109
01:05:08,959 --> 01:05:11,439
Speaker 1: go of this person who's been your crutch while you're

1110
01:05:11,439 --> 01:05:14,199
Speaker 1: trying to date and meet someone yourself? And that's a

1111
01:05:14,279 --> 01:05:16,999
Speaker 1: really hard thing to do. But I think she's realizing

1112
01:05:16,999 --> 01:05:19,279
Speaker 1: that she needs to focus on herself and that will

1113
01:05:19,319 --> 01:05:22,599
Speaker 1: help her to find a new romantic partner in her life.

1114
01:05:22,839 --> 01:05:24,679
Speaker 3: And I love the way she did it too, because

1115
01:05:24,719 --> 01:05:28,199
Speaker 3: she did it with honesty and with vulnerability, and I

1116
01:05:28,319 --> 01:05:32,799
Speaker 3: love that she's finding her voice.

1117
01:05:33,399 --> 01:05:35,719
Speaker 1: Next week, a young man finds himself at odds with

1118
01:05:35,759 --> 01:05:38,719
Speaker 1: his boss and her lack of boundaries outside the workplace.

1119
01:05:39,199 --> 01:05:41,159
Speaker 5: She would kind of contact me outside of work to

1120
01:05:41,239 --> 01:05:43,639
Speaker 5: keep that conversation going. I would just see my phone

1121
01:05:43,679 --> 01:05:45,679
Speaker 5: light up and it'd be a text message, and I said, Hey,

1122
01:05:45,759 --> 01:05:48,279
Speaker 5: if this is work related and I'm not at work,

1123
01:05:48,319 --> 01:05:51,679
Speaker 5: I really would like if you could just email me instead.

1124
01:05:51,999 --> 01:05:52,999
Speaker 4: She didn't really do that.

1125
01:05:53,559 --> 01:05:56,959
Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,

1126
01:05:57,159 --> 01:05:59,599
Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't

1127
01:05:59,599 --> 01:06:03,239
Speaker 1: miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by

1128
01:06:03,239 --> 01:06:05,439
Speaker 1: telling your friends about it and leaving a review on

1129
01:06:05,479 --> 01:06:09,039
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.

1130
01:06:09,399 --> 01:06:11,559
Speaker 3: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1131
01:06:11,599 --> 01:06:16,919
Speaker 3: Bigo Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

1132
01:06:17,279 --> 01:06:20,919
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

1133
01:06:20,959 --> 01:06:25,119
Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns

1134
01:06:25,159 --> 01:06:28,679
Speaker 1: are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison

1135
01:06:28,719 --> 01:06:32,799
Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Kuric. We

1136
01:06:32,879 --> 01:06:34,879
Speaker 1: can't wait to see you at next week's session.

1137
01:06:35,119 --> 01:06:37,919
Speaker 3: Deotherapist is a production of iHeartRadio