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Speaker 1: On today's episode, in honor of Black History Month, we

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Speaker 1: are bringing you a special, never released episode with journalist

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Speaker 1: and Emmy Award winning television producer my friend Jamiale Smith.

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Speaker 1: Jamiale is an extraordinary person who I will tell you

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Speaker 1: all about in just a minute. But first a little secret.

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Speaker 1: We actually recorded the bulk of this episode in early

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Speaker 1: Jamale and I, after the beginning of the pandemic, ended

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Speaker 1: up recording a second episode that we decided to release

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Speaker 1: that year instead, which you'll hear in next week's re release.

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Speaker 1: But after going back and listening to both parts of

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Speaker 1: our conversation and totality, I felt that this deserved to

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Speaker 1: make its way into your home, your car, your earbuds,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you find yourself listening to this podcast. There

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Speaker 1: are portions of this conversation that we had been they

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Speaker 1: feel even more relevant to me now and as we

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Speaker 1: all look at the landscape of the world around us

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Speaker 1: and how best to show up for each other. One

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Speaker 1: of the people who I love to have conversations about

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Speaker 1: showing up, speaking up, and loving up with is my

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Speaker 1: friend Jamil I'm thrilled for you to hear this conversation

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Speaker 1: with someone I am beyond honored to know. So let's

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Speaker 1: get to it. Listeners. I am so excited, honored, and

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Speaker 1: just thrilled for you to hear my conversation today with

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Speaker 1: journalist and Emmy Award winning television producer my friend jamial Smith.

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Speaker 1: Through his work, Jamiale explores a range of political and

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Speaker 1: cultural topics, including national affairs, race and racism, politics, identity,

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Speaker 1: police brutality, feminism and gender roles, and pop culture. Jamiale's

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Speaker 1: career has been nothing short of incredible as a journalist

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Speaker 1: and a commentator. He's been featured in The New York Times,

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Speaker 1: esquiy Or, The Washington Post, Huff Post, and the Los

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Speaker 1: Angeles Times, among others. He's served as a senior editor

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Speaker 1: at The New Republic, launching and hosting the magazine's first podcast, Intersection,

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Speaker 1: and he was a senior national correspondent in MTV News.

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Speaker 1: Jamille also worked as a segment producer for NFL Films,

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Speaker 1: earning him three Emmy Awards, after which he went on

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Speaker 1: to join MSNBC, serving as a producer for both The

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Speaker 1: Rachel Maddow Show and Melissa Harris Perry. While he was

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Speaker 1: a senior writer for Rolling Stone at the time of recording.

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Speaker 1: He is now a senior correspondent at Vox and co

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Speaker 1: host of his very own podcast, Box Conversations. Today, I'm

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Speaker 1: sitting down with Jamille to discuss his early life growing

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Speaker 1: up in Ohio, the incredible journey into the depths of

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Speaker 1: our country's politics and culture that his career has taken him, on,

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Speaker 1: the Black Lives Matter movement, what it would really mean

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Speaker 1: for us to love each other a little more, and

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Speaker 1: so so much more. Enjoy. I love to start with people,

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Speaker 1: uh by going backwards, because yes, you you are an

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Speaker 1: incredible journalist. You are a beautiful writer. You report for

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Speaker 1: Rolling Stone on on some of the most important issues

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Speaker 1: in regards to politics and identity. You come from the

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Speaker 1: world of Rachel Maddow. You you are often first to

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Speaker 1: report on things the world needs to know about. But

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Speaker 1: how did you get like this? Like what happened? Because

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Speaker 1: I know that you grew up in Cleveland, and so

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Speaker 1: I wonder about my friend Jamal, who I know in

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Speaker 1: the present? Like who were you as a kid? Who

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Speaker 1: were you at ten years old? Were you were you

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Speaker 1: writing stories where you really curious? What? What was your

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Speaker 1: life in Ohio? Okay? So it's an interesting it's an

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Speaker 1: interesting start be on a number of levels. So I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm the son of a Vietnam veteran. My father and

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Speaker 1: my mother, who is, you know, phenomenal intellectual, is now professor.

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Speaker 1: My mom went to graduate school while I was in

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Speaker 1: high school to get her masters, and then while I

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Speaker 1: was in undergrad was getting her PhD. So we were

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Speaker 1: both in college at the same time, and I'm enormously

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Speaker 1: proud of I'm enormously proud of both of them. So

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Speaker 1: my parents were divorced when I was very young, and

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Speaker 1: that is it's you know, significant, because I don't really

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Speaker 1: remember them being married. I don't remember us all as

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Speaker 1: a unit, but we were. It's the most well adjusted,

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Speaker 1: you know, family unit you could have considering that situation, because, uh,

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Speaker 1: they are. They're wonderful to each other. And um, it

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Speaker 1: is good that I have this one memory of that

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Speaker 1: time when I'm about three or four years old. Um,

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Speaker 1: they took me to a concert because I was crazy

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Speaker 1: about Shaka Khan. I remember this even Befo, when I

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Speaker 1: was like three or four years old and crazy about

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Speaker 1: Shaka Khan and this album she did, Rufus and Shaka Khan,

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Speaker 1: and they took me to the now defunct uh closed

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Speaker 1: Front Row Theater is Amphitheater in Cleveland. To see Shaka

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Speaker 1: Kan and Shaka Khan. Long story short comes out into

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Speaker 1: the crowd singing. You know, singers do sings. I guess

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Speaker 1: my little cute afrow itself and picks me up, holds

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Speaker 1: me in her arms and sings to me. And I

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Speaker 1: remember this because I remember the look on my parents

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Speaker 1: faces even when when I when I was that young, uh,

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Speaker 1: and sings to me, kisses me on the cheek and

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Speaker 1: sets me down. And um, you know it is possibly

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Speaker 1: my earliest memory. Uh, it's Shaka Khan and doing that.

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Speaker 1: But it's also really sweet because it's one of the

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Speaker 1: only memories I have of the three of us together.

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Speaker 1: So from there, Um, I grew up in you know

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Speaker 1: you read a little Flyers everywhere. It's in my book stack.

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Speaker 1: It's one of those books I haven't gotten to God. Well,

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Speaker 1: that is the neighborhood in which I grew up, Shaker Heads,

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Speaker 1: Ohio and so and the author of the book went

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Speaker 1: to my high school and you're just reading the book.

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Speaker 1: It's just the details in it are so uncandid. She

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Speaker 1: just nailed it. Um. It was a really unique place

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Speaker 1: to grow up because you know, it's like ostensibly racially

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Speaker 1: diverse neighborhood pretty much fifty fifty high school. But and

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Speaker 1: and this is a city city, by the way. In

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Speaker 1: the sixties, Jaker Heights was celebrated as this wonderful like

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Speaker 1: beacon of diversity and perfection. It's one of the only

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Speaker 1: I think it's the first planned community in the United

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Speaker 1: States of its type. So, you know, you get to

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Speaker 1: the high school and then once the cafeteria are all

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Speaker 1: the white kids, and all the other side of the

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Speaker 1: cafeteria all the black kids. And I come into this

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Speaker 1: from a private school where I was one of very

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Speaker 1: few black kids, and I got along with everybody. So

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Speaker 1: I just I sat with people who I wanted to

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Speaker 1: see this want to sit with. I vibe with people

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Speaker 1: who I vibe with. You know, I still have a

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Speaker 1: ton of black friends and a ton of white friends

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Speaker 1: and son of Asian friends from high school. And I

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Speaker 1: carried on through through college. When I really came out

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Speaker 1: of my show, it was very shy uh in high school,

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Speaker 1: but came out of my show in college at University

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Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania. And that's kind of like where I kind

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Speaker 1: of became who I am as a person. Um, I

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Speaker 1: think I got my values from my parents and my

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Speaker 1: grandparents in terms of my my my strong feminist beliefs. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it came from not just having strong women in my life,

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Speaker 1: but caring about their lives and their outcomes. You know.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't just like, hey, my mom and my grandmother

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Speaker 1: are really strong individuals and and go to work and

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Speaker 1: provide for their families. But it's about investing in that

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Speaker 1: outcome for them and people like them that I think

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Speaker 1: is something that was instilled in me very early. And

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure who did that. I mean, my father,

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Speaker 1: you know, is very progressive. I just think that being

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Speaker 1: around people who who nurture you and who actually believe

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Speaker 1: in you makes all the difference when you're a kid.

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Speaker 1: And that's that's what I was blessed to have. When

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Speaker 1: you talk about those beliefs being instilled in you as

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Speaker 1: a kid, you know, investing in the women and your

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Speaker 1: family being even aware enough to be concerned with their outcomes.

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Speaker 1: Are there things that in hindsight you realize showed you

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Speaker 1: how to do that? Are there are there things that

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Speaker 1: you now see as an adult man that you grew

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Speaker 1: up witnessing in your home that maybe some less less

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Speaker 1: feminist men did not. That's interesting question. I think that well.

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Speaker 1: With my grandmother, when I was very young, she would

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Speaker 1: take me to work with her. She worked for the

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Speaker 1: magistrate in Pittsburgh. My whole side of that family is

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Speaker 1: from Pittsburgh. And she would take me to work with

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Speaker 1: her and not just kind of dote on me as

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Speaker 1: a child in the office, but set me up with

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Speaker 1: the typewriter and say like, Okay, you know, I gotta

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Speaker 1: do work. I this is important, but I need you

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Speaker 1: to sit here and behave. And I was a good kid.

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Speaker 1: That wasn't really hard for me. But I you know,

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Speaker 1: I sat there and and I observed. And I think

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Speaker 1: this is where my early development of my power of observation.

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Speaker 1: I think it helps me in my work. I think

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Speaker 1: that I observed what was happening in that office. I

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Speaker 1: observed the gender dynamics, the racial dynamics. I observe how

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Speaker 1: people talk to one another. I observed what was respectful

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Speaker 1: and not not respectful. And I think that too large

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Speaker 1: to large extance. Seeing my grandmother, though she was a secretary,

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Speaker 1: have a position of power in that office because she

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Speaker 1: was competent and she was treated well. That probably had

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Speaker 1: a big effect on me. And you know, knowing that

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Speaker 1: my mom was a single mom and working hard to provide,

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Speaker 1: and but I was seeing my dad, you know, she

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Speaker 1: was she made sure that she stayed in Cleveland so

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Speaker 1: that she I could have a relationship with my father,

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Speaker 1: and I was there with him every other I feel

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Speaker 1: like almost every other day. It's almost like I was

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Speaker 1: growing up in just the same house, but just two

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Speaker 1: different houses. And I think with the key to that

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Speaker 1: is you have parents who have a really healthy relationship

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Speaker 1: and they prioritize you. And then you also see good

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Speaker 1: examples in your life of people who embody the values

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Speaker 1: that you can. You hold there and not just say

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Speaker 1: that they're about them, but they actually practice those values.

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Speaker 1: And so the whole saying, you know, don't talk about it,

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Speaker 1: be about it, that really uh sunk in early. So

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Speaker 1: I think that that's where that comes from. And also

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Speaker 1: I was a pretty well read kid, So I was

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Speaker 1: always reading stories, maybe a little bit beyond my age

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Speaker 1: my age range, but I was reading about things that

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Speaker 1: that really gave me perspective on the world, maybe a

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Speaker 1: little bit prematurely. And I think that it might have

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Speaker 1: been a good thing. So I think overall it was.

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Speaker 1: It was a good childhood. You know, I had people

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Speaker 1: who supported me and supported my intellectual pursuits. And as

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Speaker 1: far as writing, I mean, eighth grade, Mrs Handy in

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Speaker 1: the English class hands me my assignment back and says,

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Speaker 1: this is this is great. You're a really good writer.

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Speaker 1: And that's the first time a teacher had really told

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Speaker 1: me that I was good at something. And I gave

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Speaker 1: you a copy of the assignment to my grandmother. She

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Speaker 1: had it on her fresh so that she died, and

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Speaker 1: I have it framed here in my housecial. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think there's something so amazing that happens when kids are

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Speaker 1: really supported and encouraged for their intellect. Because intellectual pursuits,

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Speaker 1: by their nature, make you a more expansive human being. Yes,

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Speaker 1: they make you more in touch, they make you more curious,

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Speaker 1: they make you want to learn about others. So if

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Speaker 1: we fuel the intellect of children, they often become more

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Speaker 1: well rounded and fair human beings. Right, And you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm a libra. I'm inclined towards balance and fairness

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Speaker 1: as it is. But I I had people around me

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Speaker 1: who said, hey, you're smart, you're good. So no matter

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Speaker 1: what you may be hearing at school from these kids

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Speaker 1: who maybe peer pressuring you or bullying you or what

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Speaker 1: have you, you are good. And I was always coming

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Speaker 1: home and feeling valued all the time. And so I

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Speaker 1: would ache for those kids who don't, who don't have that,

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Speaker 1: who have probably more intellect than I did, and don't

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Speaker 1: have that nurtured because they have terrible schools, because they

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Speaker 1: have bad housing with environmental concerns that can either affect

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Speaker 1: them physiologically in terms of their intellect or affect their

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Speaker 1: health in other ways. Yes, and and then but then

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Speaker 1: we see something like this pandemic happen, and then those

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Speaker 1: people suffer disproportunately, and then you have a president gets

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Speaker 1: up on the mic and says, I don't know why

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Speaker 1: this is happening. I have no idea. I just I

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Speaker 1: don't understand. Yeah, we know exactly why it's happening. Actually, yeah,

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Speaker 1: So I'm I'm curious. You know you you talk about

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Speaker 1: Mrs Handy, and I love that. I My favorite English

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Speaker 1: teacher in high school, UM was my teacher, Mr Goss.

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Speaker 1: He was just the greatest, the greatest, Um and and

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Speaker 1: certainly helped me become the writer, you know, the amateur

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Speaker 1: journalist that I am today. Um. And that was further

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Speaker 1: fueled by my favorite professor in college, Christopher Smith, who

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Speaker 1: I just spoke to yesterday, which is so funny. I

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Speaker 1: was actually I was on a zoom meeting with a

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Speaker 1: with a writer that I love, talking about a project

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Speaker 1: we want to work on together. She's this phenomenal screenwriter

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Speaker 1: and I was telling her about interviewing my college professor

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Speaker 1: on my podcast, and he texted me and I was like,

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Speaker 1: what the universe? What is happening? It was so bizarre.

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Speaker 1: So it's funny. He's like, if I get a text

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Speaker 1: message for him and get him again right now, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna lose my ship. Um. But I you know, I

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Speaker 1: think about those teachers who really become so formative for us.

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Speaker 1: And you know, you talk about this paper you still

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Speaker 1: have from the eighth grade and and while you were

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Speaker 1: in high school, you know, before we get into u PEN,

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Speaker 1: you started writing for the student paper. Was that later

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Speaker 1: in your high school career or was it was it

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Speaker 1: in the beginning. Do you remember what you first wrote about?

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Speaker 1: How how did that happen? Not only what I first

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Speaker 1: wrote about But the very first day, I walked into

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Speaker 1: Sally Schwartz's office, she was our journalism teacher, and said,

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Speaker 1: I want to write for the school paper. This is

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Speaker 1: the like the first week of school. I'm in brand

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Speaker 1: new at Shagerhand's Ide School, and I walked into Sally

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Speaker 1: Schwartz's office and my little confident self is like, I

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Speaker 1: want to work for the paper. And she's like, well,

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Speaker 1: you gotta take my class. You had to take the

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Speaker 1: journalism class in order to qualify to write for the Shaker, right,

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Speaker 1: And so I said, fine, I'll do it. I took

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Speaker 1: the class, and eventually I became one of the news editors.

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Speaker 1: But the very first thing I wrote about had to

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Speaker 1: do with race. So, Shaker Heights borders Cleveland, and there

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Speaker 1: are traffic barriers that when you're coming from Cleveland into

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Speaker 1: Shaker in certain streets, in certain certain passageways, there are

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Speaker 1: little traffic barriers there to slow down extensively the traffic

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Speaker 1: coming from Cleveland, which is it's it's stereotypes clevelanders as

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Speaker 1: more wild or reckless, and it's very heavily black area

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Speaker 1: that's right outside of Shaker. So I believe, as a

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Speaker 1: councilman had taken a banner and stretched it over the

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Speaker 1: main Throwaway Lee Road that runs through Cleveland and into Shaker,

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Speaker 1: and it had in apartheid Shaker on banner and I

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Speaker 1: was I said, okay, I think I'm gonna go right

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Speaker 1: about that, and yeah, yeah, it was. It was a thing.

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Speaker 1: It was a thing. And so it's because it was

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Speaker 1: viewed as racially discriminatory again, because you had this very

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Speaker 1: heavily black neighborhood that's being essentially told that we need

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Speaker 1: to protect ourselves from you with these traffic barriers. And

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Speaker 1: it's to me, I saw plenty of dangerous things and

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Speaker 1: Shaker growing up too, and I saw the councilor's point,

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Speaker 1: and so it didn't lead me. I didn't start opinion

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Speaker 1: writing until much later. But I think, and it's I

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Speaker 1: think it's really important for opinion writers to train as

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Speaker 1: reporters because you need to learn how to actually do

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Speaker 1: the journalists and you can't just go out there and

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Speaker 1: just scout off, you know, whatever you want to say,

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Speaker 1: you have to back it up in terms of your reporting.

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Speaker 1: And so I think that train was very very good.

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Speaker 1: As I went to college and then became an opinion

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Speaker 1: writer for the Daily Pennsylvania. Wow, So why you penn

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Speaker 1: How did you make that decision? So I was down

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Speaker 1: to the two schools that had the best to college

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Speaker 1: dailies in the country, uh, Daily Northwestern and The Daily Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 1: And I decided I wanted to go to school in

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Speaker 1: an urban environment. I wanted to do it in a

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Speaker 1: city that I was not familiar with or had not

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Speaker 1: really ever been to. So Chicago and Philadelphia both met

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Speaker 1: that bill. But I went up to Northwestern on a

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Speaker 1: minority scholars weekend after I was accepted, and even though

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Speaker 1: I vibed with a whole lot of people there, I

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Speaker 1: just was in the Midwest again. Um. I saw the

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Speaker 1: lake was right there, and I knew what kind of

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Speaker 1: whether Chicago had, and so yeah, I don't need to

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Speaker 1: tell you, uh. And then I said, yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go to Philadelphia. I don't know anything about Philadelphia,

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Speaker 1: had been there once. Of this the campus, they did

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Speaker 1: not show us the rough parts. But I had a

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Speaker 1: really positive experience overall through my four years pen and

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Speaker 1: I had, you know, wonderful friends that you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: still in touch with out of that experience, and wonderful

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Speaker 1: professors al phil reis Herman Beavers and Greg Campfield, Uh,

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Speaker 1: to name a few who are really positive and important

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Speaker 1: in my life and remain so. And so it was.

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Speaker 1: It was a hard a lot of respects because I

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Speaker 1: felt like I didn't have family. But the thing is,

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Speaker 1: I also picked pen in part because my parents, my

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Speaker 1: grandparents were in Pittsburgh and it was a bust drive

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Speaker 1: away from Philadelphia, whereas if I was in Chicago, I

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Speaker 1: don't have a family there. So that and then there

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Speaker 1: was you know, I believe thing you know, which got

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Speaker 1: you know, I was disabused to that. I think about

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Speaker 1: a month in once I saw some of my classmates,

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Speaker 1: but um, you know, Donald Trump went there, so yeah, yikes,

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Speaker 1: what what did you study there? I was an English

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Speaker 1: major and I saw I was throwing in there thinking

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Speaker 1: I was going to do English and history double major.

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Speaker 1: But I wanted to study abroad, and I figured that

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Speaker 1: that I wasn't gonna be able to do that while

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Speaker 1: trying to do two majors, So I I cut it

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Speaker 1: down to the English because I really viewed undergraduate UH

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Speaker 1: study as a time to learn how to think, rather

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Speaker 1: than trying to absorb all the information. I really wanted

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Speaker 1: to basically train my brain for the world. And I

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Speaker 1: was doing it, you know, with one of my favorite pastimes,

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Speaker 1: which was reading and writing, and so I really enjoyed

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Speaker 1: in Farall Griffin, another professor who was now at Columbia,

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Speaker 1: it was really important to me. That's where I really

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Speaker 1: feel it first fell in love with what the major

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Speaker 1: was in her class and in Greg Campfield's class, and

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Speaker 1: they in the recent Why It's because they both encouraged

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Speaker 1: me to have critical thinking in every aspect of what

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Speaker 1: I was doing. I remember there was one in Professor

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Speaker 1: Campfield's class. His t A gave me a C plus

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Speaker 1: on a paper I had written about Walden Henry Throws Walden,

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Speaker 1: in which I basically argued that this was an equivalent

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Speaker 1: of basically what we would call a reality stunt nowadays,

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Speaker 1: that no matter what, he could always go back, and

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Speaker 1: this idea that he was just like living off the land.

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Speaker 1: I just to this day, I still think it's a crock.

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Speaker 1: And I wrote this whole paper basically interrupting it and

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Speaker 1: you know, laying up my analysis, and the t gave

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Speaker 1: me a C plus and like, but no real explanation.

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Speaker 1: So I went to Professor Campfield. I said look, I

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Speaker 1: think this guy gave me a C plus because he

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Speaker 1: disagrees with me, and that is not how you argue,

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Speaker 1: and that's not how you you do things. I would

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Speaker 1: love you if you could reevaluate this paper. And if

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Speaker 1: I deserve the C plus, great, I'll take it. But

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Speaker 1: just read, just read it and see if my argument

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Speaker 1: makes any sense. And he gave me an a minus

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Speaker 1: tenacity tenacity. But it also it was a good lesson

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Speaker 1: in how to approach your arguments calmly, as calmly as

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Speaker 1: you possibly can, because you know, I could have gotten

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Speaker 1: in that t S face and shouted him down and

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Speaker 1: custom out, and you know that wouldn't have gotten me anywhere. Now,

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Speaker 1: there are times for that in this world, sure, as

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Speaker 1: you well know. But to your point, critical thinking should

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Speaker 1: be the root of everything. We have to look past

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Speaker 1: what our initial response is because of an opinion or

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Speaker 1: a feeling or a personal experience and look critically at

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Speaker 1: what is happening. And I think you know as and

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Speaker 1: and we'll get there. But sort of the asterisk for

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Speaker 1: present day politics is that nobody wants to think critically

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Speaker 1: about policy. They just want to play party lines and

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Speaker 1: look at the detrimental effects that this is having on

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Speaker 1: all of our communities, and in particular historically oppressed ones.

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Speaker 1: It's it's a god damn mess. And we've got to

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Speaker 1: return to a time where we are looking at science,

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Speaker 1: where we are looking at fact, where we are looking

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Speaker 1: at financial data, and we're making decisions based in critical thought.

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Speaker 1: There's something that I I love just because I know

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Speaker 1: about it, uh, in your experience at you Pen while

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Speaker 1: you were I believe it was your senior year, right,

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Speaker 1: you were a rape crisis counselor. And I think that

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Speaker 1: that's just such a testament to who you are. And

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Speaker 1: I'm curious because I think about most of the boys

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Speaker 1: I knew and what they were doing their senior in college,

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Speaker 1: and they certainly weren't volunteering to be rape crisis counselors.

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Speaker 1: How did you decide that that was something that you

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Speaker 1: wanted to do? And then how as a young man

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Speaker 1: do you show up in an arena like that and

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Speaker 1: get the role and and and get taken seriously as

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Speaker 1: as someone who wants to be an ally and who

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Speaker 1: wants to to serve in that way. The impetus for

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Speaker 1: me join uh what was then known as students Together

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Speaker 1: against acquaintance rape was. You know, I think two things. One,

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Speaker 1: I knew and had seen a number of people who

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Speaker 1: had been traumatized by the really you know, pervasive rape

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Speaker 1: culture at our in our campus. And I'm not talking

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Speaker 1: about people who just simply sexually suffered sexual assault but

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Speaker 1: or harassment, but just simply because I saw people's behavior

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Speaker 1: change to accommodate for it. And that's men and women.

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Speaker 1: So men, I saw guys who were you know, previously

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Speaker 1: kind of with it, you know, they got sucked into

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Speaker 1: this culture and then they started spouting off this all

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Speaker 1: massogynist garbage. And then I saw women who were traumatized

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Speaker 1: by that that that climate. And I felt like I

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Speaker 1: wasn't doing my job as a as a student who

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Speaker 1: was aware of these things if I didn't actually try

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Speaker 1: to do something about it. And so I thought about it,

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Speaker 1: and my friend Katie was part of this group, and

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Speaker 1: so she told me a little bit more about what

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Speaker 1: was involved, and you know, we had take back the nights,

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Speaker 1: you know, on a locust walk in our in our campus,

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Speaker 1: and that deeply affected me. But it wasn't really until

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Speaker 1: I actually became a counselor and I really started talking

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Speaker 1: to you guys in particular, because it was required for

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Speaker 1: all the fraternities on campus to have one of these

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Speaker 1: workshops from our group. And it's really good thing they

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Speaker 1: did that today. It's a really good thing because a

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Speaker 1: lot of these guys didn't know what rape was. They

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Speaker 1: didn't understand that if you forced a woman down or

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Speaker 1: you don't get her consent, and affirmative consent, as my

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Speaker 1: friend Jessica Valenti and Jacke Freedman have so ably defined,

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Speaker 1: affirmative consent is so vital. You have to it doesn't

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Speaker 1: ruin the mood. Guys, if you hear yes, or you

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Speaker 1: have to ask for a yes, it doesn't ruin the mood.

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Speaker 1: Just get affirmative consent. Then then you both are on

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Speaker 1: the same plane. And frankly, it makes makes it better,

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Speaker 1: I'll be perfectly frank Um. You know when you when

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Speaker 1: you're not, when you both are on the same page

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Speaker 1: as to where your consent is. I want to be here,

430
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: I want to have this experience. I'm I'm all in

431
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: for it, that's what it means. And getting these guys

432
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 1: to understand that I was really rewarding in a lot

433
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 1: of ways, because I really hope it's sunk in and

434
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 1: maybe prevented them from, if not becoming rapists. And for

435
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 1: sexual abusers per se, just knowing how to interact with

436
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: women better, knowing how to you know, possibly you know,

437
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: be better part nurse. And now you know, I'm I'm

438
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 1: not perfect in that regard, but I think that it's

439
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:11,920
Speaker 1: certainly taught me a lot about how we learn behaviors

440
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 1: unconsciously in the society and how we have to actively

441
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 1: take an interest in unlearning them or else they just

442
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 1: think right in and then they surface it sometimes at

443
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: the worst times, and we just need to invest in

444
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: that for ourselves. And whether that comes in the form

445
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 1: now if you're an adult in therapy, whether it comes

446
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: in the form of talking to friends and commiserating, or

447
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: simply removing yourselves from negative situations, you gotta do it.

448
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: You have to do it, and do it now. It's

449
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 1: never too late. There's been so much exposure and reporting

450
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: on the prevalence of sexual assault on college campuses. Why

451
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 1: do you think because what a progressive idea. You know

452
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 1: that when you were in college, fraternity has had to

453
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: meet with rape crisis counselors. Why do you think that

454
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: hasn't been instituted as a policy in all colleges. Why

455
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: why do you think we haven't made more progress teaching

456
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: young people that other young people's bodies are not for

457
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 1: the taking. I think to some degree, sexual violence is

458
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 1: still regarded as an individual crime rather than a systemic problem.

459
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: It is, you know, hey, this bad seed did this

460
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 1: or this one thing happened, and we don't know what happened,

461
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 1: and it's really tragic and it's terrible, and that just happened.

462
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 1: It happened, just the thing that happened. Whereas I view

463
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: it more systematically, I think that there is a culture

464
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 1: that teaches us how to behave towards one another, and

465
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:57,199
Speaker 1: then if you are in those individual situations, things can't happen.

466
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: But those are consequences, often of learned behavior from a

467
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: system that needs to be changed. And that is why, Um,

468
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 1: that's why you know, we need, like I was saying before,

469
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: we need to invest in it. We need to invest

470
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: in creating that change rather than simply hoping that someone

471
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: else does it for us. Now, I think that's a

472
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 1: hell of a thing for a journalist to say, considering

473
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,360
Speaker 1: I write about the things that people other people do,

474
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: But I think what I try to use my journalism

475
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: to do is to inform people about what I think

476
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: is important, especially through my commentary in my opinion, and

477
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 1: give them a perspective on things that helps them perhaps

478
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:46,239
Speaker 1: reconsider there previously held beliefs. And sometimes also people need

479
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 1: a rallying cry. So if I'm writing something that it's like, hey,

480
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: we need to be paying attention to this problem because

481
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 1: it's important, and I think it's important, and you should

482
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: think it's important, and it's a little bit of a

483
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: you know, sort of juvenile way of quitting it. But

484
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,239
Speaker 1: I think that it's that really is the essence of

485
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: what we deal as opinion writers is just try to

486
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: give people perspective on something that we should think we

487
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: should be shouting everyone should be shouting a light upon

488
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: and and reconsidering. And because I think that you know,

489
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: if you're write an opinion and you're just simply regurgitating,

490
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: you know, sort of the commonly held wisdom on Twitter

491
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: or what you may be, you know understand from your training,

492
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: from you know, wherever you may come from, then you're

493
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: not necessarily offering something that's valuable in the in the

494
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: marketplace of ideas m HM. Because I think there's inherent

495
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: in that there's a refusal for the writer to consider

496
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: whether or not she or he is wrong. And I

497
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: think I approached I try to approach every column that

498
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: a right understanding that I could be very wrong about

499
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: the argument that I'm presenting, and that's why I try

500
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 1: to substantiate it the best that and and I also

501
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 1: leave open the possibility that things could change number one.

502
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: Number two, that other facts may come to light which

503
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: may change my mind. And number three, I think that

504
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: you know, there there's world events that happened that shifts

505
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: our entire lens on what we've been thinking about and

506
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: forces us to re consider everything anew. And I hope

507
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: that you know, people are you know, you pining, whether

508
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: it's in a tweet or in a column or a

509
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: feature length essay or poem, even that they consider the

510
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: fact that they're not infallible. And I just think that

511
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: that's the that's the healthy approach that we need to take.

512
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: And it's something that I've had to learn because sometimes

513
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: you get carried away with yourself and hey, um, i

514
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: know I'm right that this guy is an asshole. I

515
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: know I'm right that this guy is hurting people. I

516
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 1: know I'm right about this this, and um, I mean,

517
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: thank you're right, but leave open the possibility for being wrong.

518
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: I like that a lot. Do you think that that

519
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 1: was a skill that you were honing in college, because

520
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: you know, you talked about being an English major. I

521
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: imagine you were writing a lot. And and after college

522
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: you you get into TV, you get into sports, you

523
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: know what, what is the transition there? And and how

524
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: do you think you brought this this consciousness of you know, justice, parity, equality,

525
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:39,959
Speaker 1: your experiences with you into that world which is so

526
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: highly competitive and perhaps not always so open to the

527
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: more empathetic exploration and examination of how we as humans

528
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: treat each other. Right, Um, I think that it's a

529
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: lot of learning and a lot of mistakes. Um. And

530
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: and honestly, wasn't Again, I mean, as much as I

531
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: may have been assertive in my writing, I think this

532
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: is still a little bit true today. I was not

533
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: nearly as assertive, as far as you know, having couraged

534
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: to really even start the career that I wanted. I

535
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: came out of college and I looked at a bunch

536
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: of journalism jobs that weren't paying much. I'm a kid

537
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 1: from Cleveland who has no real connections. Um. I've done

538
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 1: an internship out here in l A at production company

539
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:32,959
Speaker 1: Disney Studios, but after commencement, that job fell through, and

540
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: so I'm sitting you know, that summer back home, wondering

541
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: what I'm gonna do, um and how how this is

542
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: all gonna work out? And I end up working at

543
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: William Morris as an assistant for four years when just

544
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: I guess, sort of my graduate school uh in a

545
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: lot of ways, but I think that it really comes

546
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: from you know, there's a there's a through line through

547
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: all of my strange career, which is that I love

548
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: telling stories, and whether it's inventing stories, you know, for fiction,

549
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: um or having really mostly my career has really been

550
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: about news and documentary stuff. That yeah, that's it really

551
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: teaches you how to see something through someone else's eyes.

552
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 1: And I think that as much as I may have

553
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: been empathetic in college, I really that empathy really grew

554
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: once I started telling other people's stories. And so I'm

555
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: at CNN as a p A and HBO Sports as

556
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: an as social producer. Then I go into NFL Films,

557
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 1: making football movies for Steve Sabole UH for six years

558
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: and you know, that's an aspect of my career. I

559
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: think a lot of people aren't really cognizant about UM

560
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: and that is the time. Also, you know, I try

561
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: to encourage people, especially young people, when I speak to them.

562
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: You have to not just go on every interview because

563
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: you can always learn something, but if you have different passions.

564
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: I had passed for film and TV. You know, at

565
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 1: one point in my high school years, I was going

566
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: to be the next Spike Lee. I had these passions

567
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: that I wanted to develop, but also the journalism and

568
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: in the writing, and I didn't really see how they

569
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: were gonna mesh quite but I just took the time

570
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,280
Speaker 1: in my life to pursue both. I took the time,

571
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 1: you know, to be at NFL films and to enjoy

572
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: what it was like to do highlights and you know,

573
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: do documentary segments and and and be on the NFL

574
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 1: field during the game and all these different things that

575
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 1: I will, you know, I loved as a kid. And

576
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: then I got the chance to go and work for MSNBC,

577
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:46,399
Speaker 1: work under intellects like Rachel and Melissa and and really

578
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: understand how a TV show should run. And then once

579
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 1: I was done with cable news. I feel like I

580
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: was done with that phase of my life. It was

581
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: time to write full time because I you know, Rachel Battle,

582
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 1: you know, found me on Twitter. That's how that got

583
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 1: that job. And I was oppinting writing this blog that

584
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: no one was reading because I had a passion for

585
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:12,720
Speaker 1: doing that, and then later on I had a passion

586
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: for right full time. And with with her, you know,

587
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,479
Speaker 1: Melissa's blessing, I went off to the New Republic, became

588
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,879
Speaker 1: a senior editor, and then I was nearly forty years

589
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: old starting my writing career full time. And what was

590
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: going on at the New Republic in what was the

591
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: landscape there. It was fresh off of the mass affection

592
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: following Chris Hughes taking over the magazine, the Facebook co founder,

593
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 1: and so Chris was our boss and Gabriel Snyder was

594
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: my editor in chief and Gabe is the one who

595
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: really brought me in. And at the time, I think

596
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 1: I became the the the in terms of like African

597
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 1: Americans at the New Republic, the highest ranking on the

598
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 1: masthead they've ever had in one years of the magazine,

599
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: which didn't say a lot. I didn't say a lot

600
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 1: at all, but it doesn't say a lot. And also

601
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,919
Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, I kicked that door down. I'm happy that. Yeah,

602
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 1: both both end, both end. But you know, that was

603
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 1: the place where I really learned how to work in

604
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 1: a you know, a daily journalistic environment. Um. That was

605
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: about the kinds of things that I knew. I was like, Okay,

606
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: this is what I want to do, I think, for

607
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: the rest of my life. And this is where I'm

608
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 1: getting the training. I know this as I'm as it's happening.

609
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 1: I'm getting the training two do what I hope to

610
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 1: be doing, you know, maybe until I'm seventy eight years old.

611
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,359
Speaker 1: And I just I didn't take it asn't like an

612
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: internship or anything. By no means. I had a podcast,

613
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 1: you know, I was writing my tail off, but I

614
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 1: just I just found it. It It was a really interesting

615
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: learning round. And when it all fell apart, when when

616
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: Chris decided to sell the magazine, I already had an

617
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,959
Speaker 1: exit door to MTV News. We're became a senior national

618
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: course comment and that was fun. I've had. I've got

619
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: a lot of luck at micro. Yeah, only so the

620
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,760
Speaker 1: New Republic shutters. You go to work for MTV News

621
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 1: and then and then over the last five years. How

622
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: do we how do we get to this place where

623
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 1: you are writing these incredible pieces for Rolling Stone, a

624
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 1: cover story for Time magazine, you know, all across this

625
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 1: journalistic landscape. While the landscape of journalism has really been changing,

626
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 1: it's a it's such a strange time for magazines, online publications,

627
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 1: print papers, editors and formats have been shifting around. You know,

628
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 1: how have you created a path on a road that

629
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 1: seems to be moving constantly? I think a lot of

630
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: it You have to own it up to look I

631
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: think I just say, hey, I got lucky that I

632
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: had this opportunity with MTV right as Republic under Chris

633
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: Hughes at least was crumbling. It's obviously still still publishing.

634
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 1: But I get to MTV and I while we have

635
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 1: a wonderful, amazing team of all stars. I mean, Dorian

636
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: st Felix is now with The New Yorker at Madison,

637
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 1: Who's now you know, the podcast can keep it just

638
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: this like Murderers Row of Writer. It's just a hopper

639
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: Carlo Wallace, And somehow the corporate overlords don't understand the

640
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 1: value of what we're doing or of what we can bring,

641
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 1: the value that we can bring to their organizations. So

642
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: it was like I like it, and you sports metaphors,

643
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: but it's like a coach getting fired after his first year,

644
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:48,919
Speaker 1: you know, like you haven't even a chance to change

645
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 1: the culture yet, even even a chance to really make

646
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: mistakes and and and be forgiven for them. I just

647
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: think that it was one of the most fulfilling professional

648
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 1: experiences I've ever had. And I just even today, you know, folks,

649
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: who are you know with that crew, we still talk

650
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 1: about the fact that we could have really done some

651
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: damage if we've been given another chance. But the problem,

652
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: as you mentioned the changing landscape of news, is that

653
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 1: we got caught up in the whole pivot to video thing.

654
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 1: You know, this whole thing based off of false Facebook,

655
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 1: all the algorithms, these corporate media folks thinking like, Okay,

656
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,360
Speaker 1: we're gonna make more money with video as opposed to

657
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: the written word. Let's get rid of all of these

658
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 1: journalistic all stars, and we're gonna bring in video crew.

659
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,280
Speaker 1: And you know, since then they pivoted right back to print,

660
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 1: you know. So, uh, it's a real shame because I

661
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: think people a little bit jumpy in this business. Um.

662
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 1: I think you know, one of the things I really

663
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: love about working for Rolling Stone is that they've invested

664
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 1: in the print product. You have this wonderfully beautiful, revised

665
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 1: magazine that's on this wonderful paper it and and you have

666
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: this great journalism that's still in it, and they've invested

667
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: in it. And that, to me is the kind of

668
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 1: place that I want to be at, a place that

669
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: invests in the journalistic product and understands that, Look, you

670
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,839
Speaker 1: don't buy magazines necessarily to make money. You buy it

671
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 1: so that you can help perpetuate something that's good in

672
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: the world. You know. One of the adages that I

673
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 1: always remember from my time with Rachel Metal is that

674
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 1: she would always say, you know, I want to increase

675
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 1: the amount of useful information in the world. And whether

676
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 1: that's through your reporting, or that's through your opinion, whether

677
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 1: that's through your being essayist or a poet. If you

678
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: can increase the amount of useful information in the world,

679
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 1: especially as a journalist, you're doing the right thing. But

680
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why I am a journalists I

681
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,439
Speaker 1: think it's different. So when I was fifteen years old,

682
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 1: um my cousin Andrea was murdered and he had been

683
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: missing for thank you. It's still something I'm wrestling with.

684
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm fifteen years old. I'm coming back

685
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,359
Speaker 1: from Martin Luther King Day program and my my mother

686
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: gives me the terrible news once I get in there,

687
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: and I want to get home. And you know, he

688
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:19,919
Speaker 1: was the closest thing I ever had to an older brother,

689
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: and he's just experiencing that loss and checking the papers

690
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:32,879
Speaker 1: in Cleveland to see if anyone wrote it up, and

691
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 1: in Michigan where he was found, to see if anyone

692
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 1: wrote it up. Actually went to the library. I don't

693
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 1: think I ever told my mother this, but actually went

694
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,399
Speaker 1: to the library, you know, asked for like the micro

695
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 1: fiche of like the Detroit Free Press, so that I

696
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,839
Speaker 1: could see if there is anything there about him, and

697
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 1: there was nothing. And it sticks with me because there's

698
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 1: so many people out here who don't get their stories told.

699
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: Because there are certain people in or whether it be

700
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: in media or government, who don't think that they matter,

701
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 1: or they don't have the time. You know, they got

702
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 1: this other story to cover. And you know, I hate

703
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:14,879
Speaker 1: turning down pictures sometimes because of that, because I know

704
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 1: that that story means everything to that person. That's why

705
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: they're reaching out to me at this big platform, and

706
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: when I told them, hey, I'm working on this feature,

707
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 1: don't at the time, or I'm really sorry, um, but

708
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,439
Speaker 1: I don't have the ability right now to investigate it.

709
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 1: It hurts my heart because I think of that moment

710
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 1: when I was a kid and I didn't see my

711
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: you know, my my big cousins life valued in the

712
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 1: same way that I have valued him. And that needs

713
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 1: to be a goal of our of our journalism I

714
00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 1: think in this country is to make sure that we're

715
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 1: not going to accomplish it every day. It's just not

716
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 1: it's not possible, but we need to shoot for it. This,

717
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 1: especially with opinion journalism, that to make people's stories, to

718
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: illuminate them in ways that the reader sees a completely

719
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,439
Speaker 1: different person that they may have otherwise just walk past

720
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 1: on the street. I think one of the masters of

721
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: that is right here in Los Angeles, Steve Lopez at

722
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 1: the l A Times. He's brilliant at it. There are

723
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 1: other columns are Bread growing Up, Dwayne Wick Oleman, Ralph Wiley.

724
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: You know, these these masters of the written word who

725
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 1: are able to bridge different mediums sometimes if they have to.

726
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: But really in that journalistic medium make people feel valued

727
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 1: who would otherwise be ignored. And if I can do

728
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: that with what I'm doing, uh, then I'm gonna keep

729
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 1: doing it. And as long as I don't get distracted

730
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: from it too much. You know, if I decided to

731
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 1: go on and tell stories, you know, through television, medium

732
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:10,799
Speaker 1: or film, those avenues may be available. But for right now,

733
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 1: this is this is who I am, and this is

734
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 1: what I do. Yeah, And I think to your point

735
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 1: about what it can do to people when their stories

736
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: are not told, when no one takes a moment to

737
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 1: honor their experience. There is such a profound opportunity for

738
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 1: closeness in really exploring the story of a person. You know,

739
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 1: when when you can feel because of something you've read

740
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:45,720
Speaker 1: that you you empathize, you sympathize, you understand a person,

741
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 1: it's really profound And and there's a there's a way

742
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: that you told a story of someone that I would

743
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:57,399
Speaker 1: love to touch on because it really ties to all

744
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: the things we've discussed too, you know, experiences of race

745
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 1: and gender, to the complexity of what it means to

746
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 1: be in um in a body. I mean essentially that is,

747
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: you know, not a white cis gendered male body. And

748
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are some people who have heard that

749
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 1: term a lot, and I would imagine most of the

750
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 1: listeners of my podcast understand where we're going to go

751
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: with this, but I'm sure there's some people who go, like, God,

752
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 1: I'm so sick of hearing about it. But the reason

753
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,280
Speaker 1: I feel like we have to come to the table

754
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: of conversations like these openly and be willing to repeat

755
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 1: um subject matter is because it takes a while for

756
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: things to really get in. And I know that I

757
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: experienced proximal power to you know, white male supremacy because

758
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 1: I'm a white woman. But I also know that there

759
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 1: has never been a day that has gone by in

760
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 1: my entire life when I have not been reminded out

761
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,799
Speaker 1: in the world that I am a woman and that

762
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 1: I'm either sexualized again my will or diminished because I

763
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 1: couldn't possibly be a female and have a high intellect

764
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 1: or be pretty and smart. That's got to be impossible.

765
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 1: Whether there's always no never, or or can't you just

766
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:14,879
Speaker 1: sit still and shut the funk up so I can

767
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 1: look at you. I hear that a lot on the internet. Um,

768
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,879
Speaker 1: there is never not a reminder that someone has an

769
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 1: expectation because of my gender, and thus I would be

770
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 1: remiss and honestly moronic to not recognize that they farther

771
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 1: someone gets from their proximal relationship to white head or

772
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 1: normative male supremacy, the more complex that daily experience in

773
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 1: the world gets. So when you are a person of color,

774
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 1: when you are a woman of color, and you are

775
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,799
Speaker 1: not only dealing with racialized tension, but gendered tension, I

776
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 1: don't think it does me any harm, disservice, or or

777
00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 1: reduces my potential to simply admit that I can sympathize

778
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 1: and want to understand the experience other people have. And

779
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 1: yet no matter how many stories I hear it, it

780
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 1: is an empathetic sympathy. But I can't walk in someone

781
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:23,799
Speaker 1: else's shoes unless I read something that really helps put

782
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 1: me there, unless I I get to have the specific conversation.

783
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 1: And you mentioned your two of your friends earlier, Jessica

784
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: Valenti and Jaqueline Friedman, too incredible journalists, and they put

785
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 1: together this beautiful book of essays called Believe Me, and

786
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 1: it's how trusting women can change the world. And you

787
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 1: wrote an essay for this book that really affected me

788
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:55,839
Speaker 1: so profoundly because it managed to personalize and specify this

789
00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 1: intersection of of a racial and a gendered experience that

790
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 1: Beverly Johnson, who is one of the women who was

791
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 1: assaulted by Bill Cosby, experienced in the aftermath of that assault.

792
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:13,359
Speaker 1: And you wrote this thing that has really stuck with

793
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:17,359
Speaker 1: me because in a way, I think we can all

794
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 1: relate to this in whatever relative experience we have in

795
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 1: our lives. But you talk about how Beverly feared reporting

796
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 1: Bill Cosby, not because of the backlash she might receive

797
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:36,840
Speaker 1: or or what people might immediately assume would cause her fear,

798
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 1: but she she was thinking about ghosts. And when I

799
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,320
Speaker 1: read that, it gave me the chills, because I really

800
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: I could viscerally feel those words, because the ghosts on

801
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 1: her mind were the ghosts of black men and boys

802
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 1: whose bodies are so often discarded in America. And Beverly

803
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:02,320
Speaker 1: was thinking, here is Bill Cosby who had who achieved

804
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: this upper echelon status in America despite his blackness, When

805
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 1: boys like Trayvon Martin and Alton Sterling and men like

806
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 1: Eric Garner have been cast repeatedly in this spotlight, that says, well,

807
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:25,320
Speaker 1: they did something to deserve what happened to them, And

808
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,399
Speaker 1: the other side of that experience is so often, as

809
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 1: you said earlier, that the violence perpetrated against women societally

810
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 1: has been described as a singular experience. It's not systemic.

811
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,280
Speaker 1: Especially when rich white men like Harvey Weinstein or serial rapists,

812
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 1: it's well, he has a problem where he's from a

813
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 1: different era, or you know, the Santa Barbera shooter is

814
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 1: called a lone wolf. We're not talking about the culture

815
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 1: of male entitlement to female bodies. We're not talking about

816
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: cultures of supremacy. We're claiming that if it's sexual violence,

817
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 1: it's it's some weird guy with a weird issue. And

818
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 1: so here is Beverly sitting at the crux of this experience,

819
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 1: wondering if she reports her abuser, will she somehow pull

820
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 1: the progress of black men who aren't rich and famous.

821
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 1: Will she pull these men backwards? If she tells people

822
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 1: what Bill Cosby did to her? I mean, what what

823
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: an impossible decision and what a service you did for

824
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:38,399
Speaker 1: all of us to tell her story so clearly and complexly.

825
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 1: How how do you begin to make sense of this

826
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 1: when you speak to her? And what did it feel

827
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 1: like to try to tell this story as a man

828
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 1: who exists in a black body every day. UM, I

829
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 1: knew it was really important first of all for me

830
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 1: as a black man understanding what or how I exist

831
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 1: in the world and how I moved through the world

832
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 1: to present that argument. You know, I think that you know,

833
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 1: first of all, it's it's it's so often left to

834
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 1: black women to essentially make the interpretation, even of their

835
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 1: own actions in a way that that you know, frankly

836
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: doesn't get heard or listen to enough when we talk

837
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 1: about privilege. I understand my male privilege as I, as

838
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:38,399
Speaker 1: Hannibal Burris understood his when he called Bill Cosby out.

839
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 1: You know, he was louder, he was more public, but

840
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:46,319
Speaker 1: he was also male, and that got him listened to.

841
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 1: And so I understand that even if it's on a

842
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 1: subtle level as a storyteller, um, as a person making

843
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 1: an argument, as a person writing an essay where I

844
00:51:57,960 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 1: sit in the world and how I exist in the

845
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 1: world and why people may or may not listen to me.

846
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 1: And also, frankly, given the argument that I was making,

847
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 1: and I really appreciate your kind words about it. The

848
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:13,399
Speaker 1: fact is it's there's only so much air. There's only

849
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 1: so much life in all of us. And if black

850
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 1: women are forced or compelled to essentially hold black men

851
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:28,959
Speaker 1: so tightly to them that in a metaphoral, metamorphical, metaphorical sense,

852
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 1: they're so closely holding us that they have no room

853
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 1: themselves to breathe anymore. They basically forced all the air

854
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 1: out of their lungs for our benefit. And that's really

855
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:49,400
Speaker 1: how I saw the Beverly Johnson story. I saw a

856
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 1: woman who had wrestled with an impossible choice with it,

857
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:57,439
Speaker 1: you know, very logical thinking. I think, you know, hey,

858
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:02,240
Speaker 1: I see tray Von, I see Freddy Ray, I see Um,

859
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: you know Eric Garner, all these people who have been

860
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: victimized because they are black, and they were doing the

861
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 1: most minor of things moving throughout the world. Um, if

862
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 1: I say this about Bill Cosby, it will ruin this

863
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:25,359
Speaker 1: avatar of black manhood that has been actually accepted by

864
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 1: American popular culture by and large. He was America's dad.

865
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:31,959
Speaker 1: He's selling Puttin Pops and you know he's the guy

866
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 1: on Fat Albert when I was a kid. This is

867
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 1: the guy who people trusted to be a presentable image

868
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:42,959
Speaker 1: of a black man. As much as we may laugh

869
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 1: at Richard Pryor and Eddie Murphy and a bunch of

870
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 1: these other folks. Bill Cosby was the guy who people

871
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 1: would welcome into their homes and to ruin that I

872
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:59,840
Speaker 1: understand the kind of pressure, you know, to a certain extent,

873
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,759
Speaker 1: what you might have been feeling, and I can only

874
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 1: you know. I can only sympathize, of course, but it

875
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 1: must have been unbearable. And what I hope to do

876
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:13,279
Speaker 1: with this essay is for women who are suffering this

877
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 1: less publicly and to be able to see that and say, hey,

878
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 1: we are being heard by our men number one, but

879
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:27,760
Speaker 1: by the world at large, and also to tell people

880
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,359
Speaker 1: to acquaint people who are not at all familiar with

881
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 1: black experiences plural, that this is something that happens, This

882
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 1: is something we have to worry about. This is something

883
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:41,840
Speaker 1: that's on our minds. It's much like right now with

884
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:45,960
Speaker 1: the covera coronavirus pandemic. I told somebody, I said, I

885
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 1: can't wear a bandana outside of the house around my face.

886
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 1: You understand what that looks like. I'm a black man

887
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 1: of reasonable size and we're a bandana on my face.

888
00:54:57,120 --> 00:54:59,800
Speaker 1: I'm gonna either be look regarded as a crook, or

889
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,960
Speaker 1: as a game member. And there are people who said, oh,

890
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 1: game members brought this on themselves, Well they didn't. Game

891
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:09,359
Speaker 1: members did not bring this on themselves. All game members

892
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 1: are violent, and the police regards them and as criminals.

893
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:19,800
Speaker 1: They criminalize them unfairly, puts them on lists, you know short,

894
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 1: you know, it introduces them cavalierly into the criminal justice

895
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 1: system without having, you know, them having done anything wrong

896
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:31,080
Speaker 1: in a lot of cases. And so I knew that

897
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 1: I couldn't move in my in this shell through the

898
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 1: world with a banana on my face without maybe either

899
00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:41,479
Speaker 1: some significant covering or what have you. It's just not

900
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:45,399
Speaker 1: as free as everybody else. And I was lucky enough

901
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,400
Speaker 1: a friend of mine sent me a masses can't take cloth.

902
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 1: So I'm celebrating my blackness in different ways during this pandemic.

903
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:56,080
Speaker 1: But just to get back to the point, I think

904
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 1: that with this essay offered me, you know, Jacqueline and

905
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 1: Jeff offer me a unique opportunity to really speak to

906
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:08,279
Speaker 1: how black men hopefully should perceive the ply to black

907
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:12,919
Speaker 1: women and understand that, you know, no matter how hard

908
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 1: we have it, there is a double whammy. Unlike perhaps

909
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:21,920
Speaker 1: any other people in the world, right now on black

910
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 1: women in this country, and we need to appreciate the

911
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:31,440
Speaker 1: struggles that they go through and also find ways to

912
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 1: not make it worse. So I just we can't not

913
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 1: make it worse by not dying at police hands. That's

914
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:40,760
Speaker 1: on the police, that's on the agents of the state.

915
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 1: But we need to understand this rape culture and how

916
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:55,919
Speaker 1: racism intertwined within and they combine to form this leviathan

917
00:56:56,000 --> 00:57:00,720
Speaker 1: that we yet to get rid of. And people frown

918
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 1: at the term intersectionality that Kimberly Crunchhall created, but this

919
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:08,239
Speaker 1: is this is the reality of America. And if that's

920
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:11,440
Speaker 1: too academic a term for you, I don't care. I

921
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 1: needed to to understand what that means because that is

922
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 1: the reality that we all live with. And if you

923
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:19,480
Speaker 1: don't live with it, or you don't think that you do,

924
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 1: then you still have a duty to learn about it.

925
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 1: We need to be an inquisitive people as Americans if

926
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:30,919
Speaker 1: we're ever going to get this right. Thank you for that.

927
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:36,480
Speaker 1: You know, as you were talking about verticals of experience,

928
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:42,600
Speaker 1: whether we're talking about the intersectionality of sexual violence experience

929
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:45,920
Speaker 1: differently in different communities, or to your point, talking about

930
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 1: what's happening with this virus currently. You know, as you said,

931
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 1: you said to me a moment ago, you are a

932
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 1: black man of reasonable size, you can't walk around with

933
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 1: a bandana over your face. And I think out the

934
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 1: video that came out of what I believe was a

935
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 1: Walmart of a man being escorted out by a police

936
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 1: officer saying, you can't be in here wearing that mask.

937
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:11,479
Speaker 1: He was a black man, and the guy is saying,

938
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 1: but we're supposed to wear masks in public, and there's

939
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 1: this whole experience, and the man took a video. And

940
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:21,920
Speaker 1: then just yesterday I saw a news article about a

941
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 1: black man who was arrested outside of his home unloading

942
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:29,080
Speaker 1: his car. He had a mask on, and the police

943
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 1: arrested him. They thought that he was disturbing the peace

944
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 1: or breaking into the car, or whatever excuse they gave.

945
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 1: And and the guy was like, hey, by the way,

946
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:43,000
Speaker 1: I'm a doctor. I'm just like a doctor outside of

947
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 1: my house unloading my car with a mask on, because

948
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 1: it's I'm a doctor. And it's a pandemic, you know,

949
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 1: and it is a real reality that's happening everywhere. And

950
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:58,240
Speaker 1: I think, to your point, a lot of people perhaps

951
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 1: don't experience it. So maybe they don't know how pervasive

952
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:05,240
Speaker 1: it is, or or and I understand this, maybe don't

953
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 1: have as much time to read the news as you

954
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 1: and I do, and so they don't see it. And

955
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 1: and then I think there is this other side to

956
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 1: it to reference a very different kind of story that

957
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 1: you wrote, where you know, Black Panthers on the cover

958
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:24,040
Speaker 1: of Time magazine and people say, we'll see, look, that

959
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:26,840
Speaker 1: movie was one of the biggest movies ever and it's

960
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 1: a black superhero movie, and Lena Waite has a production deal,

961
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:31,920
Speaker 1: and look at all these cool things that are happening,

962
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:36,080
Speaker 1: and and you know, there's there's plenty of there's plenty

963
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 1: more parody than there used to be. And people are

964
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:45,280
Speaker 1: not understanding the differential of a success story, which by

965
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 1: the way, it took until ten for Black Panther to

966
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 1: come out, which is insane. Ah, they're not understanding the

967
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:55,840
Speaker 1: differential of that movie doing well on a global scale

968
00:59:56,080 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 1: and the daily experience of people who have suffered generational opression.

969
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:08,760
Speaker 1: And again my desire to acknowledge it, and and the

970
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 1: deep way in which I'm affected by the oppression of

971
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:16,440
Speaker 1: communities is because your oppression is my oppression. We are

972
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:18,880
Speaker 1: all in this together. Where I can be oppressed because

973
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:21,040
Speaker 1: of my gender and you can be oppressed because of

974
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:24,720
Speaker 1: your skin, the root of that ugliness is the same.

975
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 1: The desire to subjugate people is oppressive. It is authoritarian,

976
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 1: it is it is about a hoarding of resources. It

977
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:40,160
Speaker 1: is about the denial of humanity. And I can't imagine

978
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:44,080
Speaker 1: being able to say, well, I don't like being oppressed,

979
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 1: but my oppression is pretty livable. So maybe I'm not

980
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:49,280
Speaker 1: going to go ruffle feathers over there where those people

981
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:51,320
Speaker 1: are being oppressed in a way that's not livable, because

982
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:52,840
Speaker 1: I kind of don't want to be a target. It's

983
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:55,840
Speaker 1: like we're all targets until none of us are targets.

984
01:00:57,480 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 1: And that is the thing we need to learn about

985
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:04,640
Speaker 1: this community that America has has has become, and as

986
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:07,240
Speaker 1: much as we may deny it or once you know,

987
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 1: avoid realizing that we are all in this together, and

988
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 1: this frankly, this disease is making us understand that at

989
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 1: a new level. But even even with that understanding in hand,

990
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 1: people hold tight to their to their beliefs, and to

991
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:26,439
Speaker 1: their their own sense of reality. So when I when

992
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 1: I covered Black Panther, that that was a really interesting

993
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 1: experience because I thought, you know, when I got the

994
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:35,960
Speaker 1: assignment that I was just gonna be writing essentially, not

995
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:39,400
Speaker 1: a review of the piece, but but just kind of

996
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:43,320
Speaker 1: a an analysis through my sort of political and racial

997
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:46,200
Speaker 1: lens of what the movie was. And it would be

998
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:49,000
Speaker 1: in the art section and thousand wordans and I would

999
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:51,800
Speaker 1: be that. And I end in the first draft and

1000
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:54,040
Speaker 1: the editors say, look, now we want you to expand this,

1001
01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 1: we want you to let this grow. And that's when

1002
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:58,640
Speaker 1: I added the section at the top where I really

1003
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:03,320
Speaker 1: kind of tried to help people who aren't black understand

1004
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:08,880
Speaker 1: what this movie means to us. You know, even before

1005
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:12,520
Speaker 1: it had come out, I said, you know, look, if

1006
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 1: you're white, you have heroes all day, all day, you

1007
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:21,560
Speaker 1: see yourself and your reality reflected all around you all

1008
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 1: day long. And and and to say nothing of your

1009
01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:30,440
Speaker 1: reality but your history as well. There's different forms of

1010
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:35,440
Speaker 1: white period pieces. I mean generally with this black period pieces,

1011
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:39,000
Speaker 1: it's like y'all were slaves and we're gonna tell that story.

1012
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:42,160
Speaker 1: Not that those movies haven't been good. Some of them

1013
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:44,880
Speaker 1: have been good, some of them not. But the point

1014
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:49,480
Speaker 1: is is that our reality encompasses in our history encompasses

1015
01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:56,840
Speaker 1: such a wide variety of experience and and I just

1016
01:02:56,920 --> 01:03:00,680
Speaker 1: think that that multiplicity, uh needs to be a little

1017
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:04,080
Speaker 1: bit more on display. And I think that Black Panther

1018
01:03:04,240 --> 01:03:07,240
Speaker 1: offered an opportunity that I think yet it is yet

1019
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 1: to be seized to be frank since it came out

1020
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:13,960
Speaker 1: for Hollywood to understand that the multiplicity of blackness can

1021
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:17,040
Speaker 1: be reflected on screen. It needs to be reflected in

1022
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 1: order not just for our benefits so that we can

1023
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:23,760
Speaker 1: go around, you know, doing condosolutes and and having pride

1024
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:26,000
Speaker 1: for a good couple of months while the movie is out,

1025
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 1: but you know, so that white people can understand this reality,

1026
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:38,560
Speaker 1: get to understand this as multidimensional. Honestly, it's not on

1027
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 1: us anymore to teach white people about how and why

1028
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:45,800
Speaker 1: we deserve to exist in the world. It is also

1029
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:47,560
Speaker 1: on white people to learn this and to take an

1030
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:50,680
Speaker 1: active interest in learning it. And whether that they learned

1031
01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:52,880
Speaker 1: it by going to the Shopberg Center, New York and

1032
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:56,480
Speaker 1: immersing themselves in research for a week, or they learn

1033
01:03:56,520 --> 01:04:00,840
Speaker 1: it by watching documentaries or pressing their teachers to black literature,

1034
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:04,320
Speaker 1: or they learned it by seeing Black Panther and saying Hey,

1035
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 1: that's beautiful. Those are my heroes too. H. It has

1036
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:15,200
Speaker 1: to come somehow, and and it has to be conspicuous

1037
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:19,560
Speaker 1: and willful and and not by accident. It's you know,

1038
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:21,440
Speaker 1: it's cool. If it happens by accident, we'll take it.

1039
01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:23,800
Speaker 1: But I think if we're ever really truly going to

1040
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:27,720
Speaker 1: get ourselves out of this morass, just as sexism and

1041
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:31,240
Speaker 1: misogyny are problems for men to fix, because that's on us.

1042
01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:35,760
Speaker 1: We are the perpetrators of that. It's on white people

1043
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:39,320
Speaker 1: to fix racism in America. It's not. Don't all that saying,

1044
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:41,800
Speaker 1: you know, if it as it was on us, uh

1045
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:45,240
Speaker 1: to fix it, it's not. And we can make people

1046
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:50,240
Speaker 1: aware of it increasingly, often repeating ourselves at nauseam. But

1047
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:55,040
Speaker 1: it is. It is. You know, things like Black Panther

1048
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:58,320
Speaker 1: why they're so significant. It is not merely so that

1049
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:01,600
Speaker 1: you know, the five year old version of me or

1050
01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:03,040
Speaker 1: a ten year old version of me and can go

1051
01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:05,920
Speaker 1: to a movie and see himself reflected on a big screen.

1052
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 1: That is important, But it's about understanding how multifaceted our

1053
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:17,960
Speaker 1: communities are and and and understanding that, you know, if

1054
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:22,120
Speaker 1: I go into West Indian communities, black had from a while,

1055
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:25,160
Speaker 1: there's no none of that heritage. I'm there too, you know,

1056
01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:28,320
Speaker 1: when I lived in Brooklyn and Crown Heights and Prospect Heights,

1057
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:33,320
Speaker 1: I learned a lot about that particular facet of blackness.

1058
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:36,560
Speaker 1: I think people would just really benefit from being more

1059
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:40,120
Speaker 1: curious and again thinking more critically. I love that. I

1060
01:05:40,160 --> 01:05:42,040
Speaker 1: think about some of the young people who listen to

1061
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:44,640
Speaker 1: this podcast, and I don't know why. I'm just like,

1062
01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:48,840
Speaker 1: I'm sort of picturing the archetype of a girl who

1063
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:54,160
Speaker 1: is seventeen and might be sitting at home listening to

1064
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:57,400
Speaker 1: us talk and thinking, I don't know if I've been

1065
01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:00,880
Speaker 1: exposed by my high school English teacher to my black literature.

1066
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:05,560
Speaker 1: Are there's three books that you would say, make these

1067
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:10,960
Speaker 1: your pandemic homework? Yeah, I mean I will. I will

1068
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:13,360
Speaker 1: echo that. Let let you know if you if you're

1069
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:15,720
Speaker 1: listening to this and you're thinking that, man, I haven't

1070
01:06:15,720 --> 01:06:18,600
Speaker 1: been assigned in a book by a black author, for

1071
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:22,000
Speaker 1: you know, in particular a black woman my entire high

1072
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:27,560
Speaker 1: school career. Yeah, well, I'd say join the club, because

1073
01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:31,360
Speaker 1: I can't think of too much that I was assigned

1074
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:33,600
Speaker 1: even you know, it's wonderful Shaker Rights High School is.

1075
01:06:34,080 --> 01:06:35,720
Speaker 1: I can't think of too many black books that I

1076
01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:38,840
Speaker 1: was assigned. And I think I'm thankful that I had

1077
01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:44,320
Speaker 1: parents who were conscious and conscientious enough two supplement my

1078
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:48,520
Speaker 1: education more or less by feeding my curiosity. Uh says, okay,

1079
01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:50,720
Speaker 1: you're gonna devour these books. Well, here to devour some

1080
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 1: of these two. And also having people who were prideful

1081
01:06:56,040 --> 01:06:59,640
Speaker 1: in their jobs. You know that people often dismiss My

1082
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:02,920
Speaker 1: grandfather was a custodian at the school, my grandmother was

1083
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:07,960
Speaker 1: a secretary. But seeing them take pride and and and

1084
01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:10,760
Speaker 1: honor in their work, maybe I understand from early age

1085
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:13,240
Speaker 1: if that wasn't something that they looked down upon. Despite

1086
01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:15,640
Speaker 1: the You know, my wealthy friends at my private school,

1087
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:18,760
Speaker 1: whom I have fathers who are heads of banks and

1088
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:23,040
Speaker 1: corporations and whatnot. These these are my people. And so

1089
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:26,640
Speaker 1: I would say it's tough to narrow it down. But

1090
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:29,440
Speaker 1: I would say, if you want to narrow it down

1091
01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:32,240
Speaker 1: to say three books, I would read My Bondage in

1092
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:35,080
Speaker 1: My Freedom by Frederick Douglas. I would read The Souls

1093
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:39,120
Speaker 1: of Black Folk by W. E. B. Two Boys, and

1094
01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:42,920
Speaker 1: I would read Their Eyes Were Watching Gods or No Hurston.

1095
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:47,439
Speaker 1: You know there's those are three books. And I say,

1096
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:50,920
Speaker 1: in my formative years in terms of coming into my

1097
01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:54,040
Speaker 1: sense of black consciousness, a kid who is going to

1098
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:59,280
Speaker 1: private school and didn't have that reflected around him on

1099
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:02,600
Speaker 1: a daily base, is at least in the environment that

1100
01:08:03,480 --> 01:08:06,320
Speaker 1: really helped me understand the kind of places that my

1101
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:10,800
Speaker 1: people were coming from. And in terms of contemporary books,

1102
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:14,720
Speaker 1: if you're up for reading one of the best memoirs ever,

1103
01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:17,920
Speaker 1: which is Heavy by my Man, yes a Lehman, if

1104
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:21,599
Speaker 1: you're up for reading folks like Octavia Butler, sci fi

1105
01:08:22,040 --> 01:08:25,759
Speaker 1: and k j Emison. These are people writing in different

1106
01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:30,440
Speaker 1: genres that are still reflecting our experiences in our realities.

1107
01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:33,040
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you one of the reasons I love

1108
01:08:33,080 --> 01:08:36,240
Speaker 1: Star Treks so much is that it visualized the future

1109
01:08:36,280 --> 01:08:39,840
Speaker 1: in which we were present. The visualized the future in

1110
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:45,720
Speaker 1: which in Nyota Huru is an incredibly important person on

1111
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:49,200
Speaker 1: this starship, she is a part of that reality. And

1112
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:52,000
Speaker 1: the fact that they did that in the nineteen sixties

1113
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:56,600
Speaker 1: it was recognized as revolutionary in some circles, but not

1114
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:59,439
Speaker 1: not more broadly because they kind of, you know, they

1115
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:01,640
Speaker 1: limited sci fi. I think science fiction is one of

1116
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:05,280
Speaker 1: the most prophetic genres that we have of storytelling because

1117
01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:09,960
Speaker 1: it reflects our reality, and then it's asked to project

1118
01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:13,519
Speaker 1: into the future something that we cannot see and envision

1119
01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:16,559
Speaker 1: how our reality is going to lead to that or not,

1120
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:20,000
Speaker 1: or just a scenario of how human behavior would operate

1121
01:09:20,040 --> 01:09:22,879
Speaker 1: in an environment that we've never seen or ever encountered.

1122
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:29,200
Speaker 1: And that takes some thinking. That takes a brain power.

1123
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:32,280
Speaker 1: And it's just not you know, me pitching your to

1124
01:09:32,360 --> 01:09:34,679
Speaker 1: like reboot Alien or anything. But that would be cool

1125
01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:39,360
Speaker 1: if you did that honestly, like sign me up, I'm ready,

1126
01:09:39,479 --> 01:09:43,160
Speaker 1: You're ready to train, right, Yeah, you know I love

1127
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:46,720
Speaker 1: an action job. I'm ready, So I mean, but it's

1128
01:09:46,760 --> 01:09:51,400
Speaker 1: still you think about movies like Arrival Amy Adams, where

1129
01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:57,000
Speaker 1: you're seeing an entire perspective on this wild scenario through

1130
01:09:57,120 --> 01:10:00,640
Speaker 1: a woman's eyes, and I think people didn't understand or

1131
01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:03,599
Speaker 1: appreciate how revolutionary that was when when Sigourney Weaver did

1132
01:10:03,600 --> 01:10:06,559
Speaker 1: in an Alien and and Jamie Lee Curtis and Halloween

1133
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:09,200
Speaker 1: even we have to think about how we can articulate

1134
01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:12,519
Speaker 1: our stories through the lens of people who aren't white men.

1135
01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:15,320
Speaker 1: And that's one of the things that Black Panther Getting

1136
01:10:15,360 --> 01:10:17,160
Speaker 1: back to the point, one of the things that Black

1137
01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:21,439
Speaker 1: Panther really drove home. There's not just a black man

1138
01:10:21,479 --> 01:10:24,160
Speaker 1: whose whose perspective you see? I mean it had one

1139
01:10:24,160 --> 01:10:29,040
Speaker 1: of the most complex villains in film history. Who's who

1140
01:10:29,160 --> 01:10:32,360
Speaker 1: you really took over as the protagonist almost for a

1141
01:10:32,360 --> 01:10:36,920
Speaker 1: little bit, and you I've never felt so much empathy

1142
01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:39,040
Speaker 1: for a villain. And also at the end of the

1143
01:10:39,080 --> 01:10:43,040
Speaker 1: at the end of the film spoiler alert, Deschalla realizes

1144
01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:46,040
Speaker 1: to a certain degree that the kill Monger is correct

1145
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:51,920
Speaker 1: and adopts essentially a modified version of his plan. I mean,

1146
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:54,840
Speaker 1: what movie, what movie do you see where the hero

1147
01:10:55,680 --> 01:10:59,640
Speaker 1: triumphs over the villain and then basically says, Okay, I

1148
01:10:59,720 --> 01:11:03,080
Speaker 1: like plan. I'm just gonna adopt some changes make it

1149
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:09,080
Speaker 1: more mean, you know well, And I might argue that

1150
01:11:09,080 --> 01:11:12,040
Speaker 1: that more even than saying I like your plan. What

1151
01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:14,920
Speaker 1: he says when our hero looks at a villain and says,

1152
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:19,920
Speaker 1: I understand that your heart broke in your childhood trauma,

1153
01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:23,479
Speaker 1: and that you have been trying to avenge that trauma

1154
01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:27,799
Speaker 1: your whole life. I also want to avenge traumatized people,

1155
01:11:27,920 --> 01:11:30,599
Speaker 1: but I don't want to do it by harming others.

1156
01:11:31,040 --> 01:11:33,559
Speaker 1: I want to do it by creating a more just world,

1157
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:37,800
Speaker 1: and by breaking down borders and by sharing resources. I mean,

1158
01:11:37,880 --> 01:11:46,559
Speaker 1: it was an incredibly profound message and I loved it.

1159
01:11:46,560 --> 01:11:48,759
Speaker 1: I mean, I want to talk about people's unprocessed childhood

1160
01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:52,040
Speaker 1: trauma all day. You know. That's that's one of the

1161
01:11:52,080 --> 01:11:59,520
Speaker 1: things I think is so important about our ever widening consciousness.

1162
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:01,439
Speaker 1: You know, you have all these resources. I talked to

1163
01:12:01,479 --> 01:12:04,040
Speaker 1: my parents about this recently, and my mom said, you know,

1164
01:12:04,080 --> 01:12:07,479
Speaker 1: you guys have all these resources we didn't have, you know,

1165
01:12:07,920 --> 01:12:13,120
Speaker 1: these conversations about trauma and and the popularization of therapy

1166
01:12:13,439 --> 01:12:16,280
Speaker 1: and and that it's cool to take care of your

1167
01:12:16,280 --> 01:12:19,120
Speaker 1: mental health. You know, We're in this really special time

1168
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:23,200
Speaker 1: and and I think that is why so many people

1169
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:27,479
Speaker 1: are opening their eyes to systems, are are looking at

1170
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:30,599
Speaker 1: who gets to tell the stories. You know. I think

1171
01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:33,680
Speaker 1: about something you mentioned a while back before we you know,

1172
01:12:33,720 --> 01:12:37,800
Speaker 1: we got into movies and books, but when you were

1173
01:12:37,840 --> 01:12:42,600
Speaker 1: talking about how coronavirus are our current pandemic situation is

1174
01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:47,400
Speaker 1: so disproportionately affecting black and brown and indigenous communities, and

1175
01:12:47,479 --> 01:12:51,280
Speaker 1: it's so that article. I mean, I read it and

1176
01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:55,439
Speaker 1: it's it is a gut punch, and I mean that

1177
01:12:55,560 --> 01:13:00,960
Speaker 1: in the best way possible. It's so important to look

1178
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:03,120
Speaker 1: at it, you know, And and through the storytelling lens,

1179
01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:08,240
Speaker 1: you said, we always die first, and and we are

1180
01:13:08,320 --> 01:13:12,240
Speaker 1: we are seeing And you wrote about the administration. You wrote,

1181
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:15,920
Speaker 1: they are not just complicit but accelerants in the conditions

1182
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:19,640
Speaker 1: that made black people more vulnerable to the novel coronavirus

1183
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:23,200
Speaker 1: to begin with. And these are the things we've been discussing,

1184
01:13:23,240 --> 01:13:28,160
Speaker 1: these generational systems of oppression, denial of access to care,

1185
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:32,920
Speaker 1: maybe not overt violence, but a withholding of resources. And

1186
01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:37,160
Speaker 1: now we see what's happening in these communities, and and

1187
01:13:37,200 --> 01:13:40,479
Speaker 1: being the journalists that you are and having that kind

1188
01:13:40,479 --> 01:13:45,080
Speaker 1: of expertise that comes from such exposure to people's realities,

1189
01:13:45,400 --> 01:13:47,519
Speaker 1: what do you think are the steps that need to

1190
01:13:47,560 --> 01:13:53,080
Speaker 1: be taken? And how would you suggest, without co opting

1191
01:13:53,120 --> 01:13:57,160
Speaker 1: the narrative or taking the mic, how can the rest

1192
01:13:57,200 --> 01:14:02,880
Speaker 1: of us advocate for and with communities of color who

1193
01:14:02,920 --> 01:14:05,719
Speaker 1: are being denied the resources that they need at this time?

1194
01:14:07,000 --> 01:14:09,120
Speaker 1: I think what we have to do is be humble.

1195
01:14:09,280 --> 01:14:12,320
Speaker 1: Number One. Humility is key. When I wrote that essay

1196
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:15,080
Speaker 1: in that book, I had to be humble to understand that, hey,

1197
01:14:15,120 --> 01:14:18,320
Speaker 1: I don't have the experience of black women have. So

1198
01:14:18,439 --> 01:14:20,000
Speaker 1: I think that if you want to be a true ally,

1199
01:14:20,080 --> 01:14:22,040
Speaker 1: you have to first humble yourself and understand what you

1200
01:14:22,120 --> 01:14:26,439
Speaker 1: don't know and and be willing to learn and absorb knowledge,

1201
01:14:27,439 --> 01:14:32,280
Speaker 1: but don't depend wholly upon the people who you're trying

1202
01:14:32,280 --> 01:14:35,160
Speaker 1: to represent to give you that knowledge. If that, if

1203
01:14:35,160 --> 01:14:37,679
Speaker 1: that makes any sense, there has to be an inherent

1204
01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:43,040
Speaker 1: drive and curiosity that you exhibit, and it's easily recognizable.

1205
01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:46,240
Speaker 1: It's like, Okay, this person is actually trying to advocate

1206
01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:48,800
Speaker 1: for me because they understand what they don't know and

1207
01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:50,519
Speaker 1: they're trying to go out and learn it. But they're

1208
01:14:50,520 --> 01:14:54,479
Speaker 1: not depending upon me to like school them in all

1209
01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:58,599
Speaker 1: things black, you know, and and so that they can

1210
01:14:58,640 --> 01:15:02,639
Speaker 1: help me. That gets a exhausting and you know, I'm

1211
01:15:02,680 --> 01:15:05,400
Speaker 1: sure for women it gets exhausting. Men try to help

1212
01:15:05,439 --> 01:15:07,280
Speaker 1: and they're like, okay, well tell me what it's like

1213
01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:10,160
Speaker 1: being a woman in America. Won't like how much time

1214
01:15:10,200 --> 01:15:14,559
Speaker 1: do you have? You know? You know? Uh? And So

1215
01:15:14,920 --> 01:15:18,240
Speaker 1: I think that that humility is is key. I think

1216
01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:22,360
Speaker 1: that a true grasp on the facts is essential. You

1217
01:15:22,400 --> 01:15:25,920
Speaker 1: can't just come out with outrage everyone like odd people

1218
01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:28,439
Speaker 1: are piste off a lot of people are angry about

1219
01:15:28,479 --> 01:15:30,400
Speaker 1: what's going on in the world. But you need to

1220
01:15:30,439 --> 01:15:34,439
Speaker 1: have the data. You need to have the information. And

1221
01:15:34,520 --> 01:15:37,840
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that everyone needs to be reporters per se.

1222
01:15:37,920 --> 01:15:40,519
Speaker 1: But we all have cameras in our hands. Now, we

1223
01:15:40,560 --> 01:15:43,240
Speaker 1: all have this, you know, these computers in our hands,

1224
01:15:43,360 --> 01:15:45,840
Speaker 1: and I don't think enough of us to using them

1225
01:15:46,240 --> 01:15:48,479
Speaker 1: and the way they should be used. I think those

1226
01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:51,439
Speaker 1: are two steps right off the bat. Be informed and

1227
01:15:51,479 --> 01:15:54,760
Speaker 1: be humble. It's just essential. Well, my friend, the time

1228
01:15:54,800 --> 01:15:57,639
Speaker 1: has come for me to ask you my very favorite question.

1229
01:15:57,920 --> 01:16:00,880
Speaker 1: Oh man, here we go. We're have in a conversation

1230
01:16:01,280 --> 01:16:03,879
Speaker 1: on work in progress. And when you hear the phrase

1231
01:16:04,280 --> 01:16:09,040
Speaker 1: be it something personal or professional? What comes up in

1232
01:16:09,080 --> 01:16:11,920
Speaker 1: your mind and heart as a work in progress in

1233
01:16:11,960 --> 01:16:15,839
Speaker 1: your life? Right now? Um, two things, one personal and professional.

1234
01:16:15,880 --> 01:16:18,320
Speaker 1: I'll start with the profession. What comes to mind when

1235
01:16:18,320 --> 01:16:20,960
Speaker 1: I hear that phrase, especially as I listened to the show,

1236
01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:24,960
Speaker 1: is that the work is progress and we need to

1237
01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:29,160
Speaker 1: understand that the work that we put in every day,

1238
01:16:29,320 --> 01:16:32,960
Speaker 1: it needs to be understood that it's it's it's while

1239
01:16:32,960 --> 01:16:36,720
Speaker 1: it may feel like we're standing still so often, it's

1240
01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:41,800
Speaker 1: it's helping progress something somewhere that maybe we don't see

1241
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:45,719
Speaker 1: I is tempting in this business to get worried about

1242
01:16:46,320 --> 01:16:48,960
Speaker 1: who's retweeting you, how many, how many likes you have?

1243
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:53,160
Speaker 1: Is that a measure of your your your scope of influence?

1244
01:16:54,240 --> 01:16:56,800
Speaker 1: And I encourage people who are in and out of

1245
01:16:56,840 --> 01:16:59,920
Speaker 1: media to to understand that what you're doing on a

1246
01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:07,040
Speaker 1: daily basis has has value beyond this easily quantifiable measures

1247
01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:10,240
Speaker 1: that social media and other things have introduced in order

1248
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:14,360
Speaker 1: to frankly profit all of us. We need to understand

1249
01:17:14,400 --> 01:17:18,360
Speaker 1: that this is this work that we do every day

1250
01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:22,120
Speaker 1: moves us forward. And if you truly feel like your

1251
01:17:22,120 --> 01:17:25,440
Speaker 1: work isn't moving you forward, then yes, perhaps some introspection

1252
01:17:25,560 --> 01:17:28,360
Speaker 1: is needed. But yeah, I think people to understand and

1253
01:17:28,400 --> 01:17:31,519
Speaker 1: I certainly needed to understand it too, even even recently,

1254
01:17:32,520 --> 01:17:37,519
Speaker 1: that the work is progress and personally, on a personal level,

1255
01:17:37,840 --> 01:17:40,920
Speaker 1: even at forty four years old, um, I think I

1256
01:17:41,000 --> 01:17:47,200
Speaker 1: still and getting to know myself and going through a

1257
01:17:47,240 --> 01:17:51,640
Speaker 1: traumatic time right now. Is we all are on a

1258
01:17:51,720 --> 01:17:55,960
Speaker 1: collective level, and as I am on personal level, I

1259
01:17:56,000 --> 01:17:59,120
Speaker 1: think that you really get to learn more about who

1260
01:17:59,160 --> 01:18:01,639
Speaker 1: you are and you really need to have that firm

1261
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:04,760
Speaker 1: basis in mind. I really, as much as I know

1262
01:18:04,960 --> 01:18:08,400
Speaker 1: my predilections and my precadillos. I think you learn new

1263
01:18:08,479 --> 01:18:11,400
Speaker 1: things about yourself when you go through trauma. Given that

1264
01:18:11,520 --> 01:18:17,559
Speaker 1: my career essentially stems from a moment of trauma with

1265
01:18:17,600 --> 01:18:21,680
Speaker 1: my cousin's death, I'm constantly re examining that, not just

1266
01:18:21,720 --> 01:18:23,840
Speaker 1: as far as what I do every day, but as

1267
01:18:23,880 --> 01:18:27,559
Speaker 1: far as how I moved through the world. And I

1268
01:18:27,680 --> 01:18:34,240
Speaker 1: know that he would not want me so preoccupied per

1269
01:18:34,280 --> 01:18:40,000
Speaker 1: se with what happened to him. At least maybe I

1270
01:18:40,040 --> 01:18:44,360
Speaker 1: feel that way. But at the same time, you have

1271
01:18:44,400 --> 01:18:48,080
Speaker 1: to work through what you got. So that means, especially

1272
01:18:48,080 --> 01:18:51,920
Speaker 1: men out here and listen and go to therapy. It's

1273
01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:55,559
Speaker 1: not an indication that you're soft. It's not an indication

1274
01:18:55,560 --> 01:18:59,000
Speaker 1: that you're not masculine. Um, it's not an indication that

1275
01:18:59,120 --> 01:19:04,920
Speaker 1: you are somehow faulty. Even it just means such, you're vulnerable.

1276
01:19:05,439 --> 01:19:09,880
Speaker 1: That's a good thing, and vulnerability to burn a Brown's point,

1277
01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:13,559
Speaker 1: you know, as a researcher, actually requires the most courage.

1278
01:19:14,439 --> 01:19:16,280
Speaker 1: So I look around and I'm like, oh, boys, you

1279
01:19:16,280 --> 01:19:20,519
Speaker 1: want to prove to me that you are masculine. How's

1280
01:19:20,560 --> 01:19:27,000
Speaker 1: your vulnerability going, because otherwise otherwise you're just playing right

1281
01:19:26,800 --> 01:19:30,280
Speaker 1: right for lack of better word, it's acting, and not

1282
01:19:30,360 --> 01:19:33,160
Speaker 1: all of us are very good actors, unlike you President

1283
01:19:33,200 --> 01:19:39,400
Speaker 1: company here, So thank you, m Yeah, that's those are

1284
01:19:39,400 --> 01:19:42,400
Speaker 1: the things. You're very welcome, And thank you for your

1285
01:19:42,479 --> 01:19:49,040
Speaker 1: vulnerability and for your commitment and and your unwavering pursuit

1286
01:19:49,160 --> 01:19:52,639
Speaker 1: of progress and the truth. It really means a lot,

1287
01:19:52,720 --> 01:19:55,200
Speaker 1: and I'm very honored to be your friend. The feeling

1288
01:19:55,280 --> 01:20:04,440
Speaker 1: is very mutual. Oh,