WEBVTT - New Year, Old You? We Got You. 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:23.836 Pushkin Hey, Slight Changers. Before we start today's episode, I 0:00:23.876 --> 0:00:27.356 have an exciting announcement to make. I'm starting a newsletter. 0:00:28.036 --> 0:00:31.116 I'm really looking forward to having another place to connect 0:00:31.156 --> 0:00:34.556 with you all. I'll be sharing personal updates, links to 0:00:34.596 --> 0:00:38.636 what I'm reading or watching lately, exciting new science about change, 0:00:38.676 --> 0:00:42.076 and my top takeaways, and some behind the scenes from 0:00:42.116 --> 0:00:45.796 my conversations on the show. The newsletter is totally free, 0:00:46.116 --> 0:00:48.236 and I'd love it if you could sign up. You 0:00:48.276 --> 0:00:51.636 can find the link in our show notes. Okay, so 0:00:51.756 --> 0:00:54.596 today I want to reshare one of my favorite science 0:00:54.636 --> 0:00:57.836 episodes with you. It features a dear friend of mine 0:00:57.956 --> 0:01:01.476 who also happens to be a rock star behavioral scientist. 0:01:02.156 --> 0:01:05.756 Katie Milkman is an expert on behavior change and how 0:01:05.796 --> 0:01:08.676 we can bridge that important gap between who we are 0:01:08.756 --> 0:01:12.316 right now now and who we want to be. Since 0:01:12.436 --> 0:01:15.916 learning about Katie's research, I've been so much more successful 0:01:15.996 --> 0:01:19.636 at reaching my goals, both big and small and fun. 0:01:19.676 --> 0:01:22.116 Fact which will make more sense after you listen to 0:01:22.156 --> 0:01:26.036 this convo. I've watched far more TV in the process, 0:01:26.916 --> 0:01:29.236 since many of us are just starting to fall off 0:01:29.276 --> 0:01:31.756 the wagon when it comes to our New Year's resolutions. 0:01:32.116 --> 0:01:35.076 I'm hoping this episode can serve as a refresher course 0:01:35.116 --> 0:01:39.116 for you. Katie shares a set of concrete, easy to 0:01:39.116 --> 0:01:42.196 implement strategies that can help you reach your goals and 0:01:42.236 --> 0:01:45.316 become the best version of yourself. I really hope you 0:01:45.436 --> 0:01:45.876 enjoy it. 0:01:57.796 --> 0:02:00.916 My research group has studied this phenomenon where at the 0:02:00.956 --> 0:02:04.156 beginning of sort of a new chapter in your life, 0:02:04.436 --> 0:02:07.436 you are more motivated and likely to make a change. 0:02:07.916 --> 0:02:10.836 That's doctor Katie miltonan author of the book had to. 0:02:10.876 --> 0:02:15.876 Change moments when you leave college and your shift identity 0:02:16.036 --> 0:02:18.436 is and take on a new role, or when you 0:02:18.476 --> 0:02:22.436 become a parent. Those moments they feel like new beginnings 0:02:22.436 --> 0:02:25.036 and chapter breaks in our lives, and they free us 0:02:25.076 --> 0:02:28.516 from the baggage that we had before. A lot of 0:02:28.596 --> 0:02:33.476 people who do make big change are looking at moments 0:02:33.516 --> 0:02:35.636 that feel like breaking points and doing it. 0:02:36.756 --> 0:02:40.316 Katie Milkman's a professor of behavioral economics at the University 0:02:40.316 --> 0:02:43.876 of Pennsylvania. She's also a friend and collaborator. We got 0:02:43.916 --> 0:02:45.836 to work together on some projects when I was in 0:02:45.836 --> 0:02:48.596 the Obama White House, and she happens to be an 0:02:48.676 --> 0:02:52.396 expert on change. As you know, this show is all 0:02:52.436 --> 0:02:55.836 about how people navigate the big changes in life. We're 0:02:55.876 --> 0:02:59.036 talking swing for the fences, change your life type changes. 0:02:59.916 --> 0:03:02.396 What Katie's research has taught me over the years is 0:03:02.436 --> 0:03:05.836 that small tweaks to our mindset and daily behaviors can 0:03:05.916 --> 0:03:10.556 actually inspire big change within ourselves personally, been using insights 0:03:10.556 --> 0:03:13.916 from Katie's research in my own life for a while now. 0:03:13.956 --> 0:03:16.636 In this special episode, Katie and I dive deep into 0:03:16.676 --> 0:03:19.756 the science of change. I hope our conversation will leave 0:03:19.756 --> 0:03:22.316 you at some valuable tips to help you approach change 0:03:22.356 --> 0:03:25.876 differently in your own life. I'm Maya Shunker and this 0:03:25.956 --> 0:03:49.436 is a slight change of plans. Well, Katie, I was 0:03:49.476 --> 0:03:52.916 curious to know how you got into the topic of change. 0:03:53.356 --> 0:03:56.556 Honestly, I was in love with behavioral science, but it 0:03:56.596 --> 0:03:58.476 took me a little while to figure out that I 0:03:58.516 --> 0:04:01.636 wanted to focus on change. And what happened is I 0:04:01.716 --> 0:04:05.276 went to a seminar over at the med school and 0:04:05.316 --> 0:04:07.796 there's a bunch of brilliant people over there thinking about 0:04:07.836 --> 0:04:10.116 behavioral science and medicine. How can we help patients make 0:04:10.156 --> 0:04:12.516 better decisions? How can we improve the decisions of doctors 0:04:12.556 --> 0:04:15.156 as well? And I was in this seminar and a 0:04:15.316 --> 0:04:18.436 graph went up, which normally doesn't change your life, but 0:04:18.476 --> 0:04:21.716 this graph changed my life. The graph just showed a 0:04:21.756 --> 0:04:26.236 breakdown of how many premature deaths are due to different causes, 0:04:26.316 --> 0:04:33.956 from you know, accidents to environment to daily decisions, and 0:04:34.076 --> 0:04:36.916 forty percent of premature deaths turn out to be the 0:04:36.956 --> 0:04:39.836 result of decisions that we can change on a daily 0:04:39.876 --> 0:04:42.836 basis about things like whether or not we drink or smoke, 0:04:43.116 --> 0:04:45.556 what we eat, whether or not we're physically active, we 0:04:45.636 --> 0:04:49.236 buckle our seat belts. Those kinds of decisions accumulate more 0:04:49.276 --> 0:04:51.636 than I could have ever imagined. I had just no 0:04:51.716 --> 0:04:55.036 idea of the magnitude. And when I saw that and realized, 0:04:55.076 --> 0:04:58.196 you know, the tools of behavioral science could be applied 0:04:58.316 --> 0:05:02.316 to improve health outcomes and health decisions, I could have 0:05:02.356 --> 0:05:05.436 this enormous impact. And then I sort of started thinking, like, Okay, well, 0:05:05.436 --> 0:05:07.276 if it matters that much with health, it's sort of 0:05:07.316 --> 0:05:12.276 obvious that emulate in areas like savings and education similarly, 0:05:12.316 --> 0:05:15.876 even if I've never seen an exact breakdown of that sort. 0:05:16.076 --> 0:05:19.356 So that really just got me excited about the potential 0:05:19.356 --> 0:05:21.956 to use this thing that I found so interesting, so 0:05:22.156 --> 0:05:26.676 exciting and fun to actually have an impact. So that 0:05:26.756 --> 0:05:29.196 was That was it for me. I'm really curious about 0:05:29.356 --> 0:05:32.836 how your journey changed, because you've had many career shifts, 0:05:33.076 --> 0:05:36.156 but you certainly went from you know, a more laboratory 0:05:36.236 --> 0:05:39.716 based focus too, you know, jumping into the White House 0:05:39.756 --> 0:05:42.996 to tackle change head on from a policy perspective. 0:05:42.996 --> 0:05:45.116 How did you shift? 0:05:46.076 --> 0:05:48.796 It's interesting because in my mind, my big shift in 0:05:48.836 --> 0:05:52.596 life was from the violin to cognitive science. But I'm 0:05:52.636 --> 0:05:54.596 just remembering, like, oh wait, I also had this other 0:05:54.716 --> 0:05:55.796 really big shift. 0:05:56.356 --> 0:05:58.996 That big changes and changing person to host. 0:06:00.756 --> 0:06:02.796 I think this is true across science too, but certainly 0:06:02.796 --> 0:06:04.756 when we were working in the government, the stakes feel 0:06:04.956 --> 0:06:08.476 so high you just can't screw up because these are 0:06:08.556 --> 0:06:11.196 real people's and they can be affected by the work 0:06:11.236 --> 0:06:13.516 you're doing. And yeah, it's so funny. I mean, we 0:06:13.676 --> 0:06:16.316 actually worked together on some projects. Actually one of them 0:06:16.396 --> 0:06:18.836 used an insight from your book, and it was the 0:06:18.836 --> 0:06:21.396 fresh Start effect. And I'm curious if you can share 0:06:21.676 --> 0:06:24.036 what the fresh Start effect is. It was very exciting 0:06:24.076 --> 0:06:26.956 at the time to have hot off the presses research 0:06:27.036 --> 0:06:30.676 coming out of your lab actually applied to a problem 0:06:30.676 --> 0:06:32.356 that we were trying to solve in the government. 0:06:32.836 --> 0:06:36.076 So my research group has studied this phenomenon where at 0:06:36.116 --> 0:06:39.316 the beginning of sort of a new chapter in your life, 0:06:39.716 --> 0:06:42.596 you are more motivated and likely to make a change. 0:06:42.996 --> 0:06:45.636 And we've often studied small changes in this context, like 0:06:45.916 --> 0:06:49.116 you go to the gym more, or you search on 0:06:49.196 --> 0:06:51.796 Google for the term diet more frequently, or you're more 0:06:51.876 --> 0:06:54.156 likely to set a goal on a goal setting website. 0:06:54.396 --> 0:06:58.756 But I also think you know where the interest in 0:06:58.796 --> 0:07:01.756 this topic came from was the realization that a lot 0:07:01.796 --> 0:07:06.236 of people who do make big change are looking at 0:07:06.316 --> 0:07:09.596 moments that feel like breaking points and doing doing it. 0:07:09.676 --> 0:07:12.076 And so I tell stories about bigger changes in my book, 0:07:12.396 --> 0:07:16.996 moments when you leave college and you shift identity is 0:07:17.076 --> 0:07:19.516 and take on a new role, or when you become 0:07:19.556 --> 0:07:23.156 a parent. Those moments they feel like new beginnings and 0:07:23.236 --> 0:07:26.156 chapter breaks in our lives, and I think they're freeing 0:07:26.356 --> 0:07:26.836 in a way. 0:07:26.956 --> 0:07:30.076 They free us from the baggage that we had before. 0:07:30.396 --> 0:07:33.396 But they can also be freeing psychologically because we feel 0:07:33.476 --> 0:07:35.276 like you're a new person. 0:07:35.356 --> 0:07:36.796 You can take on a new identity. 0:07:36.996 --> 0:07:42.036 Whatever wasn't working before, whatever ambition you failed to have before, 0:07:42.316 --> 0:07:44.996 you could shed that and say okay, now I can 0:07:45.036 --> 0:07:46.796 do it. So anyway, I do think we could study 0:07:46.796 --> 0:07:48.756 big change. And I actually think some of the research 0:07:48.996 --> 0:07:52.556 we've done around small change is inspired by a recognition 0:07:52.596 --> 0:07:55.916 that these might also be the triggers for big change. 0:07:56.596 --> 0:07:58.716 Was there a particular moment in your life where you 0:07:58.796 --> 0:08:03.356 felt the fresh start effect play out, where it really 0:08:03.396 --> 0:08:05.036 felt like a new beginning and there was a certain 0:08:05.036 --> 0:08:07.836 set of habits or behavior changes that you witnessed. 0:08:08.156 --> 0:08:10.676 Oh my gosh, I mean, you know, I do mesearch 0:08:10.716 --> 0:08:15.036 so totally, meaning like a lot of my research. 0:08:14.676 --> 0:08:16.796 Is motivated by like, oh wow, that's weird. 0:08:16.836 --> 0:08:18.516 I wonder if other people, and then I like asked 0:08:18.516 --> 0:08:21.476 my friends, Oh yes, me too, And then I realized, okay, 0:08:21.876 --> 0:08:24.196 like this might be this might be something we're setting. 0:08:24.916 --> 0:08:27.956 I will say one example that I love is that 0:08:28.436 --> 0:08:31.236 I realized I wanted to write this book for a 0:08:31.276 --> 0:08:36.036 long time. Finally what happened that triggered it? When I 0:08:36.236 --> 0:08:40.076 actually began, my son was three years old. We decided 0:08:40.116 --> 0:08:41.636 we were going to move out of our apartment into 0:08:41.636 --> 0:08:44.276 a house. We bought the house, we signed the papers, 0:08:44.356 --> 0:08:46.516 and that day I said, you know what, I'm ready, 0:08:46.716 --> 0:08:47.836 We're moving to a new house. 0:08:48.956 --> 0:08:49.796 It's a fresh start. 0:08:50.076 --> 0:08:51.916 This is the moment, and the project started from there, 0:08:51.956 --> 0:08:53.436 So that was a big one for me. 0:08:53.636 --> 0:08:57.076 Interesting. One of the anecdots around the fresh Start that 0:08:57.156 --> 0:09:01.316 I love the most is Obama decided that he would 0:09:01.356 --> 0:09:06.196 stop smoking for good when the Affordable Care Act passed, 0:09:06.636 --> 0:09:08.916 and I was like, wait, a next level the fresh 0:09:08.916 --> 0:09:11.996 Start effect, Like he truly chose a once in a 0:09:12.036 --> 0:09:14.316 lifetime experience to anchor his commitment on. 0:09:14.516 --> 0:09:16.916 And it was like aligned on, you know, it was 0:09:16.956 --> 0:09:18.796 aligned on like a health focus. 0:09:19.156 --> 0:09:22.236 Yes, of course, of course Obama went ups all of 0:09:22.316 --> 0:09:26.396 us and does the thing in the best way imaginable. Duh. 0:09:26.476 --> 0:09:28.876 But I do love that, like there's no other future, 0:09:28.916 --> 0:09:30.436 one of those where he can be like, oh maybe 0:09:30.436 --> 0:09:32.276 I can cave a little now, because they'll be this. 0:09:32.196 --> 0:09:35.996 Other right the other time I pass health the other. 0:09:35.836 --> 0:09:37.276 Time I pass healthcare as president. 0:09:38.356 --> 0:09:40.636 I love that anecdote. I don't think I knew that. Actually, 0:09:40.716 --> 0:09:43.876 that's amazing. Have you used the fresh Start effect, maya 0:09:43.996 --> 0:09:45.796 or like in hindsight, have you ever noticed that a 0:09:45.796 --> 0:09:46.796 fresh art shifted. 0:09:48.676 --> 0:09:52.196 I swear, I swear to God every Sunday I'm committing 0:09:52.236 --> 0:09:56.236 to eating healthily. It's just that there's too many damn Sundays, 0:09:56.436 --> 0:09:58.996 and so I always feel like I've gotten next to 0:09:58.996 --> 0:10:01.796 give it a go. Yeah, but yeah, I mean I 0:10:01.796 --> 0:10:03.836 think it's it's hard for so many of us to 0:10:05.036 --> 0:10:07.996 keep our resolutions. And in reading your book, it did 0:10:08.076 --> 0:10:13.836 make me think, Okay, choose really remarkable milestones for pivoting, 0:10:13.996 --> 0:10:18.036 like big moves like when I moved from DC to California, 0:10:19.236 --> 0:10:21.996 getting married, big events like that, because I do think 0:10:22.036 --> 0:10:24.636 you feel like your identity is changing a bit, and 0:10:24.956 --> 0:10:28.476 any behaviors at a company identity shifts might be more sticky, 0:10:28.676 --> 0:10:30.156 or at least they have than in my experience. 0:10:30.356 --> 0:10:31.036 I think that's right. 0:10:31.076 --> 0:10:32.756 And you get the benefit not only of the sort 0:10:32.756 --> 0:10:36.196 of psychological break and the fresh start and opening a 0:10:36.236 --> 0:10:39.716 new chapter, but you also have physical change, which is 0:10:39.716 --> 0:10:42.396 so important to disrupting sort of bad habits or routines 0:10:42.436 --> 0:10:44.996 and giving you that real blank slate to build upon 0:10:45.036 --> 0:10:46.396 and say like, oh, I'm not going to go to 0:10:46.436 --> 0:10:48.116 the burrito shop but very day for. 0:10:48.716 --> 0:10:50.556 Lunch, or you know, whatever your bad habit is that 0:10:50.596 --> 0:10:53.396 you want to kick exactly. Yeah. 0:10:53.436 --> 0:10:55.396 I think one of my favorite insights from the book, 0:10:55.476 --> 0:10:57.116 and it's and it'said I've been using in my own 0:10:57.156 --> 0:11:00.596 life since I read your research years ago, is around 0:11:00.636 --> 0:11:03.956 temptation bundling. Do you mind for sharing what that is? 0:11:03.996 --> 0:11:05.476 And then I'd love to let you know how I've 0:11:05.516 --> 0:11:06.076 been using it. 0:11:06.316 --> 0:11:10.716 Yeah, yes, I hear about your temptation bundling, that this 0:11:10.756 --> 0:11:13.996 is gonna be fun. So temptation bundling is a solution 0:11:14.116 --> 0:11:17.036 I came up with because I had two problems. 0:11:17.636 --> 0:11:19.156 Taking you back to grad school again. 0:11:19.236 --> 0:11:21.876 I was taking all these hard engineering classes and I 0:11:21.916 --> 0:11:24.116 was stressed out, and I'd come home after a long 0:11:24.156 --> 0:11:27.636 day of classes and all I wanted to do was 0:11:27.716 --> 0:11:30.716 just like indulge in entertainment, right like turn on Netflix 0:11:30.756 --> 0:11:34.316 and binge watch TV, read tempting novels. So I just 0:11:34.356 --> 0:11:37.076 wanted I wanted to dive into that and escape my reality, 0:11:37.876 --> 0:11:39.796 and I didn't want to do my problem sets. On 0:11:39.836 --> 0:11:42.156 the flip side, I also knew I should really be 0:11:42.316 --> 0:11:46.636 getting exercise. I was an athlete in college, but again, 0:11:46.716 --> 0:11:48.596 when I came home from a long day, I didn't 0:11:48.636 --> 0:11:50.476 want to put on sweats and go to the gym. 0:11:50.556 --> 0:11:53.156 So these two problems, like I couldn't get myself to 0:11:53.156 --> 0:11:55.796 do my homework because I was procrastinating indulging in all 0:11:55.836 --> 0:11:58.476 this entertainment, and I couldn't get myself to exercise and 0:11:58.516 --> 0:12:00.636 all of a sudden, I realized, like, wait a minute, 0:12:00.916 --> 0:12:03.036 what if I solved them all at once? What if 0:12:03.076 --> 0:12:06.796 I only let myself enjoy this entertainment that I love 0:12:06.876 --> 0:12:09.996 so much while I'm exercising, I'd start craving trips to 0:12:10.036 --> 0:12:12.036 the gym to find out what happens next in my 0:12:12.116 --> 0:12:15.316 latest page turner, and I would stop wasting time at 0:12:15.316 --> 0:12:18.196 home on this sort of literary garbage that normally captures 0:12:18.236 --> 0:12:20.516 my attention. I'd just focus on my problem sets. And 0:12:20.556 --> 0:12:23.276 I started doing it. Was just like magic. I worked 0:12:23.276 --> 0:12:25.556 out every day. Time flew while I was at the 0:12:25.556 --> 0:12:28.436 gym because I was engrossed in Harry Potter or Alex Cross. 0:12:28.796 --> 0:12:30.276 And when I got home, I was ready to work 0:12:30.276 --> 0:12:33.396 because I'd already had my indulgence and I was unastressed out. 0:12:33.676 --> 0:12:35.796 And I also realized like I could use them not 0:12:35.876 --> 0:12:38.236 only to help me exercise, but in lots of places, 0:12:38.276 --> 0:12:40.916 like if you just tie something tempting to a chore, 0:12:41.156 --> 0:12:43.716 you can magically turn it into something you look forward 0:12:43.716 --> 0:12:46.276 to and do less of that indulgent thing and feel 0:12:46.276 --> 0:12:49.156 les guilty about it, Like you know, if only you 0:12:49.196 --> 0:12:51.236 get a glass of wine while you're making a home 0:12:51.276 --> 0:12:53.476 cooked meal, or listen to your favorite podcast while you're 0:12:53.476 --> 0:12:54.156 doing chores. 0:12:54.716 --> 0:12:57.036 For all you listeners who are doing laundry right now, 0:12:57.116 --> 0:13:00.116 Katie and I are carrying you on. Go for it. 0:13:00.356 --> 0:13:02.716 Yes, your temptation bundling. You didn't know there was a 0:13:02.756 --> 0:13:03.116 name for. 0:13:03.116 --> 0:13:07.836 It, Yes, exactly. Okay. So one of my favorite things 0:13:07.876 --> 0:13:10.796 in life is discovering a new pop song that I love. 0:13:11.516 --> 0:13:15.276 And what makes me really sad is that I very quickly, 0:13:15.916 --> 0:13:18.876 like it loses the spark after a certain number of listens, 0:13:18.956 --> 0:13:22.356 like you just know you only have fifteen amazing listens 0:13:22.396 --> 0:13:25.996 of the song and before it kind of becomes old hat. Right, So, 0:13:26.116 --> 0:13:29.356 as soon as I discovered an amazing song, I will 0:13:29.516 --> 0:13:31.916 only allow myself to listen to it while I'm working 0:13:31.996 --> 0:13:34.356 out from that point on, And like, I'm a really 0:13:34.396 --> 0:13:36.476 non fun wife because my husband sometimes and I will 0:13:36.476 --> 0:13:39.276 discover the song together and we'll be cooking in the evening, 0:13:39.396 --> 0:13:41.356 We'll be having fun. He's like, hey, let's play that 0:13:41.396 --> 0:13:43.876 new album by Casey must Graves, who's one of my 0:13:43.916 --> 0:13:46.316 favorite artists, And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, you 0:13:46.356 --> 0:13:50.636 don't understand that's only like a treadmill elliptical song. Because 0:13:50.636 --> 0:13:52.516 I just feel like I have to protect it and 0:13:52.556 --> 0:13:54.796 save it. But it certainly makes the workout a lot 0:13:54.836 --> 0:13:57.716 more tolerable and a little bit more exciting. 0:13:57.916 --> 0:14:00.196 So greaty, I love pop music too, and I feel 0:14:00.196 --> 0:14:02.556 like we should trade some song recommendations later so we 0:14:02.556 --> 0:14:05.676 can each share no more adordance. 0:14:05.796 --> 0:14:09.756 It's now very seriously tied to my exercise between The 0:14:09.796 --> 0:14:12.996 one thing that can happen is when you temptation bundle. 0:14:13.476 --> 0:14:18.316 Sometimes what can happen is the intrinsic extrinsic motivation balance 0:14:18.436 --> 0:14:21.556 gets thrown off kilter a bit. So it's like, initially 0:14:21.636 --> 0:14:24.356 I'm just using all of my internal will to go exercise, 0:14:24.396 --> 0:14:26.836 but now I've got this extrinsic motivator, which is a song. 0:14:27.236 --> 0:14:29.236 So on the rare occasion where like my headphones are 0:14:29.276 --> 0:14:31.796 out of battery, or like my phone's Wi Fi is 0:14:31.836 --> 0:14:34.156 not working, I'm like, Ooh, I don't know if I 0:14:34.156 --> 0:14:34.916 can do this anymore. 0:14:35.076 --> 0:14:37.556 Just have to make sure your headphones are always working 0:14:37.596 --> 0:14:40.796 and your your iPhone is always charged or whatever. 0:14:41.876 --> 0:14:46.436 Yes, I'm wondering whether for temptation bundling. You see this 0:14:46.516 --> 0:14:51.516 plate on the wild in places that where behavior change 0:14:51.516 --> 0:14:53.196 feels a little bit more serious. 0:14:53.876 --> 0:14:55.996 That's interesting I'm trying to think if I have a 0:14:55.996 --> 0:15:00.116 great answer for you. There's a study I love of 0:15:00.276 --> 0:15:02.756 teachers who are trying to figure out how to motivate 0:15:03.116 --> 0:15:07.396 their students to do more math problems, which kids apparently 0:15:07.876 --> 0:15:09.316 say they like doing math about as myne which is 0:15:09.356 --> 0:15:11.796 they like eating broccoli. So that tells you something about 0:15:12.116 --> 0:15:16.236 how delightful it is. And math is so important to everything, 0:15:16.876 --> 0:15:22.556 as we both know. So these two researchers suggested, basically 0:15:22.596 --> 0:15:26.076 a temptation bundle. What if the kids could, you know, 0:15:26.116 --> 0:15:29.396 listen to music, have snacks markers that they like using, 0:15:29.476 --> 0:15:30.996 and they did that all on the day when they're 0:15:31.036 --> 0:15:35.436 doing their math worksheets, but not at other times. And 0:15:36.156 --> 0:15:38.396 the teachers were sort of skeptical. They were like, I 0:15:38.436 --> 0:15:41.676 think they'll focus left because some'll be distracted. And it 0:15:41.756 --> 0:15:44.636 turned out that kids persisted longer on math when they 0:15:44.916 --> 0:15:48.516 were randomly assigned to groups that had these i'll say 0:15:48.516 --> 0:15:51.436 temptations linked with them. It's not, you know, it's not 0:15:51.556 --> 0:15:54.556 changing their lives in that day. It is cumulative. But 0:15:54.636 --> 0:15:56.916 I think that that's an example of like some of 0:15:56.956 --> 0:15:59.756 the big goals we have in life, whether it's getting 0:15:59.796 --> 0:16:02.916 through your math assignments, or finishing a dissertation, If you 0:16:02.916 --> 0:16:04.676 can find a way to make it more enjoyable, that 0:16:04.796 --> 0:16:05.476 really matters. 0:16:05.716 --> 0:16:08.636 I love the math example, I think for two reasons. 0:16:08.636 --> 0:16:12.036 I mean, the is I just let any time research 0:16:12.116 --> 0:16:15.596 findings violate our expectations. You know, when the teachers are like, Ooh, 0:16:15.596 --> 0:16:17.556 I'm not really sure that this is a good idea. 0:16:17.676 --> 0:16:20.836 But then you're able to generate empirical data that runs 0:16:20.876 --> 0:16:24.156 counter to that hypothesis. That's wonderful because it's moving the 0:16:24.196 --> 0:16:27.676 field forward. And I think the other reason I love 0:16:27.716 --> 0:16:31.236 it is that, you know, success begets success, passion begets passion. 0:16:31.276 --> 0:16:33.276 It's kind of one of those things where if you 0:16:33.356 --> 0:16:36.236 get a kid just through that initial period they're just 0:16:36.356 --> 0:16:39.236 learning the basics, getting over those initial super hard humps, 0:16:39.916 --> 0:16:42.956 then they might actually realize they really like this thing 0:16:43.356 --> 0:16:45.756 and then just becomes easier and easier and easier to 0:16:45.796 --> 0:16:49.276 do every problem from that point forward. So I do 0:16:49.356 --> 0:16:51.556 feel like it can have massive long term effects. 0:16:52.396 --> 0:16:52.876 I'm with you. 0:16:52.876 --> 0:16:55.356 And if they have positive associations with math, I mean, 0:16:55.436 --> 0:16:56.636 what more could we hope for. 0:17:01.276 --> 0:17:06.836 We'll be right back with a slight change of plans. 0:17:15.116 --> 0:17:17.836 In this episode, Doctor Katie Milkin and I are talking 0:17:17.836 --> 0:17:20.556 about the science of change and the different techniques we 0:17:20.596 --> 0:17:23.716 can use to spur on that change. One technique is 0:17:23.756 --> 0:17:26.716 called a commitment device, which locks you into a plan 0:17:26.836 --> 0:17:29.796 to reach your long term goals. The key feature of 0:17:29.836 --> 0:17:32.236 a commitment device is that if you don't follow through 0:17:32.276 --> 0:17:35.036 with your plan, there's some sort of penalty in place. 0:17:35.836 --> 0:17:38.876 I remember, I'm curious if you actually remember the experience 0:17:38.876 --> 0:17:40.916 of first learning about them, because for me, it was 0:17:40.956 --> 0:17:44.316 like mind blowing how powerful they were, and actually mind 0:17:44.316 --> 0:17:47.156 blowing how few people use them given how powerful they are. 0:17:47.196 --> 0:17:49.596 But the study that I love that really I think 0:17:49.716 --> 0:17:52.916 illustrates nicely how much they can help us is a 0:17:52.956 --> 0:17:56.076 study where they partnered with a bank in the Philippines 0:17:56.476 --> 0:17:58.676 that saw low savings rates and wanted to figure out 0:17:58.676 --> 0:18:00.716 if there was a way to help people save more 0:18:00.756 --> 0:18:03.876 so they'd have the ability to have better health, have 0:18:03.916 --> 0:18:07.116 better life outcomes. Where they came up with this idea 0:18:07.316 --> 0:18:09.596 that one of the reasons people were having trouble acumulating 0:18:09.636 --> 0:18:12.716 savings balances is they were constantly tempted to dip in. 0:18:12.756 --> 0:18:14.636 They were like they opened the bank account and they 0:18:14.716 --> 0:18:17.196 put some money aside, but then somebody's birthday or there's 0:18:17.476 --> 0:18:19.916 a holiday, and so the money came right back out 0:18:20.196 --> 0:18:22.556 and it never accumulated. And that people said, you know, 0:18:22.596 --> 0:18:23.996 actually I'd kind of like it if I. 0:18:23.956 --> 0:18:25.356 Couldn't get the money out. 0:18:25.476 --> 0:18:28.476 I like kind of wish I couldn't act on those impulses. 0:18:28.796 --> 0:18:30.836 So they developed this new kind of account. It was 0:18:30.836 --> 0:18:33.756 a commitment savings account. So you put money in and 0:18:33.876 --> 0:18:35.716 you are not allowed to take it out until a 0:18:35.756 --> 0:18:39.076 predetermined date you choose, or a savings goal you choose. 0:18:39.516 --> 0:18:42.436 They offered this kind of account to you know, a 0:18:42.516 --> 0:18:45.396 random subset of customers alongside the usual account with the 0:18:45.436 --> 0:18:49.116 same interest rate, but free in and out access. They 0:18:49.476 --> 0:18:52.836 saved eighty percent more year over year than than the 0:18:52.876 --> 0:18:57.476 control I mean eighty percent more savings. Right, you studied 0:18:57.476 --> 0:18:59.436 savings like that that's life changing. 0:18:59.876 --> 0:19:01.716 So I love that story. 0:19:01.796 --> 0:19:04.676 That's a hard commitment because when you put your money in, 0:19:04.756 --> 0:19:07.396 there is another you know, there's a third party the 0:19:07.516 --> 0:19:10.556 bank that is saying like, you cannot have it. It 0:19:10.596 --> 0:19:13.076 is not accessible to you. I'm preventing I'm preventing you 0:19:13.076 --> 0:19:15.556 from So there's like a hard restriction on access to something. 0:19:15.676 --> 0:19:18.076 And a commitment device is something you voluntarily opt into 0:19:18.276 --> 0:19:21.316 that restricts you or penalizes you in some way if 0:19:21.316 --> 0:19:23.276 you don't achieve your goals or pursue your goals in 0:19:23.276 --> 0:19:25.156 the way you intend to. So that's a hard one 0:19:25.236 --> 0:19:28.836 because there's no fudging it. There's soft commitments in the 0:19:28.876 --> 0:19:33.156 world too, like you know, you tell your partner, your 0:19:33.316 --> 0:19:35.956 mom you're gonna do something, and then they and ask 0:19:36.036 --> 0:19:38.396 them to give you a hard time if you don't. 0:19:38.716 --> 0:19:40.796 That's like a weak commitment device. You're gonna get a 0:19:40.836 --> 0:19:43.596 little you're gonna get ribbed a little bit, or you're 0:19:43.596 --> 0:19:45.876 accountable to someone, but you can back out. 0:19:46.236 --> 0:19:49.036 Yeah. I also remember learning about commitment devices for the 0:19:49.076 --> 0:19:53.396 first time. Gosh, we sound like such nerds. Do you are, Katie? 0:19:53.396 --> 0:19:55.276 Do you remember where you were? Do you remember the 0:19:55.356 --> 0:19:58.916 day you learned about commitment devices? I mean remember exactly 0:19:58.916 --> 0:19:59.436 where I was. 0:19:59.676 --> 0:20:01.876 I mean I'm like, yeah, I was in a classroom. 0:20:02.036 --> 0:20:02.836 My head exploded. 0:20:03.116 --> 0:20:05.516 Where were you? 0:20:06.116 --> 0:20:08.196 I know, I was in my kitchen with my roommates 0:20:08.236 --> 0:20:09.556 and I was reading this paper. I was like, oh, 0:20:09.556 --> 0:20:12.076 this is so exciting. The researchers ran a study in 0:20:12.076 --> 0:20:14.996 which they had people outline where, when, and how they 0:20:14.996 --> 0:20:16.396 were planning to get vaccinated. 0:20:16.476 --> 0:20:17.796 So that was my study. 0:20:18.036 --> 0:20:20.036 Oh my gosh, this is so fun. The flu shot 0:20:20.076 --> 0:20:23.076 study I'm talking about is your study. See that's awesome. Okay, 0:20:23.156 --> 0:20:27.716 well the seminal work by doctor Milkman. So in your 0:20:27.756 --> 0:20:30.236 study you ask people, where, when, and how you're going 0:20:30.276 --> 0:20:32.396 to go get vaccinated, right, And I think what was 0:20:32.436 --> 0:20:34.196 so stunning to me is like, you see you write 0:20:34.196 --> 0:20:36.036 down this forum. You know, I'm May at nine am, 0:20:36.076 --> 0:20:38.676 after I drop off my husband at work and I 0:20:38.716 --> 0:20:40.836 go pick up my groceries, I'm going to go to 0:20:40.836 --> 0:20:43.476 the CBS and get my flu vaccine. And what was 0:20:43.516 --> 0:20:47.596