Speaker 1: Pushkin Hey, Slight Changers. Before we start today's episode, I
Speaker 1: have an exciting announcement to make. I'm starting a newsletter.
Speaker 1: I'm really looking forward to having another place to connect
Speaker 1: with you all. I'll be sharing personal updates, links to
Speaker 1: what I'm reading or watching lately, exciting new science about change,
Speaker 1: and my top takeaways, and some behind the scenes from
Speaker 1: my conversations on the show. The newsletter is totally free,
Speaker 1: and I'd love it if you could sign up. You
Speaker 1: can find the link in our show notes. Okay, so
Speaker 1: today I want to reshare one of my favorite science
Speaker 1: episodes with you. It features a dear friend of mine
Speaker 1: who also happens to be a rock star behavioral scientist.
Speaker 1: Katie Milkman is an expert on behavior change and how
Speaker 1: we can bridge that important gap between who we are
Speaker 1: right now now and who we want to be. Since
Speaker 1: learning about Katie's research, I've been so much more successful
Speaker 1: at reaching my goals, both big and small and fun.
Speaker 1: Fact which will make more sense after you listen to
Speaker 1: this convo. I've watched far more TV in the process,
Speaker 1: since many of us are just starting to fall off
Speaker 1: the wagon when it comes to our New Year's resolutions.
Speaker 1: I'm hoping this episode can serve as a refresher course
Speaker 1: for you. Katie shares a set of concrete, easy to
Speaker 1: implement strategies that can help you reach your goals and
Speaker 1: become the best version of yourself. I really hope you
Speaker 1: enjoy it.
Speaker 2: My research group has studied this phenomenon where at the
Speaker 2: beginning of sort of a new chapter in your life,
Speaker 2: you are more motivated and likely to make a change.
Speaker 1: That's doctor Katie miltonan author of the book had to.
Speaker 2: Change moments when you leave college and your shift identity
Speaker 2: is and take on a new role, or when you
Speaker 2: become a parent. Those moments they feel like new beginnings
Speaker 2: and chapter breaks in our lives, and they free us
Speaker 2: from the baggage that we had before. A lot of
Speaker 2: people who do make big change are looking at moments
Speaker 2: that feel like breaking points and doing it.
Speaker 1: Katie Milkman's a professor of behavioral economics at the University
Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania. She's also a friend and collaborator. We got
Speaker 1: to work together on some projects when I was in
Speaker 1: the Obama White House, and she happens to be an
Speaker 1: expert on change. As you know, this show is all
Speaker 1: about how people navigate the big changes in life. We're
Speaker 1: talking swing for the fences, change your life type changes.
Speaker 1: What Katie's research has taught me over the years is
Speaker 1: that small tweaks to our mindset and daily behaviors can
Speaker 1: actually inspire big change within ourselves personally, been using insights
Speaker 1: from Katie's research in my own life for a while now.
Speaker 1: In this special episode, Katie and I dive deep into
Speaker 1: the science of change. I hope our conversation will leave
Speaker 1: you at some valuable tips to help you approach change
Speaker 1: differently in your own life. I'm Maya Shunker and this
Speaker 1: is a slight change of plans. Well, Katie, I was
Speaker 1: curious to know how you got into the topic of change.
Speaker 2: Honestly, I was in love with behavioral science, but it
Speaker 2: took me a little while to figure out that I
Speaker 2: wanted to focus on change. And what happened is I
Speaker 2: went to a seminar over at the med school and
Speaker 2: there's a bunch of brilliant people over there thinking about
Speaker 2: behavioral science and medicine. How can we help patients make
Speaker 2: better decisions? How can we improve the decisions of doctors
Speaker 2: as well? And I was in this seminar and a
Speaker 2: graph went up, which normally doesn't change your life, but
Speaker 2: this graph changed my life. The graph just showed a
Speaker 2: breakdown of how many premature deaths are due to different causes,
Speaker 2: from you know, accidents to environment to daily decisions, and
Speaker 2: forty percent of premature deaths turn out to be the
Speaker 2: result of decisions that we can change on a daily
Speaker 2: basis about things like whether or not we drink or smoke,
Speaker 2: what we eat, whether or not we're physically active, we
Speaker 2: buckle our seat belts. Those kinds of decisions accumulate more
Speaker 2: than I could have ever imagined. I had just no
Speaker 2: idea of the magnitude. And when I saw that and realized,
Speaker 2: you know, the tools of behavioral science could be applied
Speaker 2: to improve health outcomes and health decisions, I could have
Speaker 2: this enormous impact. And then I sort of started thinking, like, Okay, well,
Speaker 2: if it matters that much with health, it's sort of
Speaker 2: obvious that emulate in areas like savings and education similarly,
Speaker 2: even if I've never seen an exact breakdown of that sort.
Speaker 2: So that really just got me excited about the potential
Speaker 2: to use this thing that I found so interesting, so
Speaker 2: exciting and fun to actually have an impact. So that
Speaker 2: was That was it for me. I'm really curious about
Speaker 2: how your journey changed, because you've had many career shifts,
Speaker 2: but you certainly went from you know, a more laboratory
Speaker 2: based focus too, you know, jumping into the White House
Speaker 2: to tackle change head on from a policy perspective.
Speaker 3: How did you shift?
Speaker 1: It's interesting because in my mind, my big shift in
Speaker 1: life was from the violin to cognitive science. But I'm
Speaker 1: just remembering, like, oh wait, I also had this other
Speaker 1: really big shift.
Speaker 4: That big changes and changing person to host.
Speaker 1: I think this is true across science too, but certainly
Speaker 1: when we were working in the government, the stakes feel
Speaker 1: so high you just can't screw up because these are
Speaker 1: real people's and they can be affected by the work
Speaker 1: you're doing. And yeah, it's so funny. I mean, we
Speaker 1: actually worked together on some projects. Actually one of them
Speaker 1: used an insight from your book, and it was the
Speaker 1: fresh Start effect. And I'm curious if you can share
Speaker 1: what the fresh Start effect is. It was very exciting
Speaker 1: at the time to have hot off the presses research
Speaker 1: coming out of your lab actually applied to a problem
Speaker 1: that we were trying to solve in the government.
Speaker 2: So my research group has studied this phenomenon where at
Speaker 2: the beginning of sort of a new chapter in your life,
Speaker 2: you are more motivated and likely to make a change.
Speaker 2: And we've often studied small changes in this context, like
Speaker 2: you go to the gym more, or you search on
Speaker 2: Google for the term diet more frequently, or you're more
Speaker 2: likely to set a goal on a goal setting website.
Speaker 2: But I also think you know where the interest in
Speaker 2: this topic came from was the realization that a lot
Speaker 2: of people who do make big change are looking at
Speaker 2: moments that feel like breaking points and doing doing it.
Speaker 2: And so I tell stories about bigger changes in my book,
Speaker 2: moments when you leave college and you shift identity is
Speaker 2: and take on a new role, or when you become
Speaker 2: a parent. Those moments they feel like new beginnings and
Speaker 2: chapter breaks in our lives, and I think they're freeing
Speaker 2: in a way.
Speaker 3: They free us from the baggage that we had before.
Speaker 2: But they can also be freeing psychologically because we feel
Speaker 2: like you're a new person.
Speaker 3: You can take on a new identity.
Speaker 2: Whatever wasn't working before, whatever ambition you failed to have before,
Speaker 2: you could shed that and say okay, now I can
Speaker 2: do it. So anyway, I do think we could study
Speaker 2: big change. And I actually think some of the research
Speaker 2: we've done around small change is inspired by a recognition
Speaker 2: that these might also be the triggers for big change.
Speaker 1: Was there a particular moment in your life where you
Speaker 1: felt the fresh start effect play out, where it really
Speaker 1: felt like a new beginning and there was a certain
Speaker 1: set of habits or behavior changes that you witnessed.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I mean, you know, I do mesearch
Speaker 2: so totally, meaning like a lot of my research.
Speaker 3: Is motivated by like, oh wow, that's weird.
Speaker 2: I wonder if other people, and then I like asked
Speaker 2: my friends, Oh yes, me too, And then I realized, okay,
Speaker 2: like this might be this might be something we're setting.
Speaker 2: I will say one example that I love is that
Speaker 2: I realized I wanted to write this book for a
Speaker 2: long time. Finally what happened that triggered it? When I
Speaker 2: actually began, my son was three years old. We decided
Speaker 2: we were going to move out of our apartment into
Speaker 2: a house. We bought the house, we signed the papers,
Speaker 2: and that day I said, you know what, I'm ready,
Speaker 2: We're moving to a new house.
Speaker 3: It's a fresh start.
Speaker 2: This is the moment, and the project started from there,
Speaker 2: So that was a big one for me.
Speaker 1: Interesting. One of the anecdots around the fresh Start that
Speaker 1: I love the most is Obama decided that he would
Speaker 1: stop smoking for good when the Affordable Care Act passed,
Speaker 1: and I was like, wait, a next level the fresh
Speaker 1: Start effect, Like he truly chose a once in a
Speaker 1: lifetime experience to anchor his commitment on.
Speaker 2: And it was like aligned on, you know, it was
Speaker 2: aligned on like a health focus.
Speaker 1: Yes, of course, of course Obama went ups all of
Speaker 1: us and does the thing in the best way imaginable. Duh.
Speaker 1: But I do love that, like there's no other future,
Speaker 1: one of those where he can be like, oh maybe
Speaker 1: I can cave a little now, because they'll be this.
Speaker 4: Other right the other time I pass health the other.
Speaker 1: Time I pass healthcare as president.
Speaker 2: I love that anecdote. I don't think I knew that. Actually,
Speaker 2: that's amazing. Have you used the fresh Start effect, maya
Speaker 2: or like in hindsight, have you ever noticed that a
Speaker 2: fresh art shifted.
Speaker 1: I swear, I swear to God every Sunday I'm committing
Speaker 1: to eating healthily. It's just that there's too many damn Sundays,
Speaker 1: and so I always feel like I've gotten next to
Speaker 1: give it a go. Yeah, but yeah, I mean I
Speaker 1: think it's it's hard for so many of us to
Speaker 1: keep our resolutions. And in reading your book, it did
Speaker 1: make me think, Okay, choose really remarkable milestones for pivoting,
Speaker 1: like big moves like when I moved from DC to California,
Speaker 1: getting married, big events like that, because I do think
Speaker 1: you feel like your identity is changing a bit, and
Speaker 1: any behaviors at a company identity shifts might be more sticky,
Speaker 1: or at least they have than in my experience.
Speaker 3: I think that's right.
Speaker 2: And you get the benefit not only of the sort
Speaker 2: of psychological break and the fresh start and opening a
Speaker 2: new chapter, but you also have physical change, which is
Speaker 2: so important to disrupting sort of bad habits or routines
Speaker 2: and giving you that real blank slate to build upon
Speaker 2: and say like, oh, I'm not going to go to
Speaker 2: the burrito shop but very day for.
Speaker 3: Lunch, or you know, whatever your bad habit is that
Speaker 3: you want to kick exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think one of my favorite insights from the book,
Speaker 1: and it's and it'said I've been using in my own
Speaker 1: life since I read your research years ago, is around
Speaker 1: temptation bundling. Do you mind for sharing what that is?
Speaker 1: And then I'd love to let you know how I've
Speaker 1: been using it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, I hear about your temptation bundling, that this
Speaker 2: is gonna be fun. So temptation bundling is a solution
Speaker 2: I came up with because I had two problems.
Speaker 3: Taking you back to grad school again.
Speaker 2: I was taking all these hard engineering classes and I
Speaker 2: was stressed out, and I'd come home after a long
Speaker 2: day of classes and all I wanted to do was
Speaker 2: just like indulge in entertainment, right like turn on Netflix
Speaker 2: and binge watch TV, read tempting novels. So I just
Speaker 2: wanted I wanted to dive into that and escape my reality,
Speaker 2: and I didn't want to do my problem sets. On
Speaker 2: the flip side, I also knew I should really be
Speaker 2: getting exercise. I was an athlete in college, but again,
Speaker 2: when I came home from a long day, I didn't
Speaker 2: want to put on sweats and go to the gym.
Speaker 2: So these two problems, like I couldn't get myself to
Speaker 2: do my homework because I was procrastinating indulging in all
Speaker 2: this entertainment, and I couldn't get myself to exercise and
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, I realized, like, wait a minute,
Speaker 2: what if I solved them all at once? What if
Speaker 2: I only let myself enjoy this entertainment that I love
Speaker 2: so much while I'm exercising, I'd start craving trips to
Speaker 2: the gym to find out what happens next in my
Speaker 2: latest page turner, and I would stop wasting time at
Speaker 2: home on this sort of literary garbage that normally captures
Speaker 2: my attention. I'd just focus on my problem sets. And
Speaker 2: I started doing it. Was just like magic. I worked
Speaker 2: out every day. Time flew while I was at the
Speaker 2: gym because I was engrossed in Harry Potter or Alex Cross.
Speaker 2: And when I got home, I was ready to work
Speaker 2: because I'd already had my indulgence and I was unastressed out.
Speaker 2: And I also realized like I could use them not
Speaker 2: only to help me exercise, but in lots of places,
Speaker 2: like if you just tie something tempting to a chore,
Speaker 2: you can magically turn it into something you look forward
Speaker 2: to and do less of that indulgent thing and feel
Speaker 2: les guilty about it, Like you know, if only you
Speaker 2: get a glass of wine while you're making a home
Speaker 2: cooked meal, or listen to your favorite podcast while you're
Speaker 2: doing chores.
Speaker 1: For all you listeners who are doing laundry right now,
Speaker 1: Katie and I are carrying you on. Go for it.
Speaker 4: Yes, your temptation bundling. You didn't know there was a
Speaker 4: name for.
Speaker 1: It, Yes, exactly. Okay. So one of my favorite things
Speaker 1: in life is discovering a new pop song that I love.
Speaker 1: And what makes me really sad is that I very quickly,
Speaker 1: like it loses the spark after a certain number of listens,
Speaker 1: like you just know you only have fifteen amazing listens
Speaker 1: of the song and before it kind of becomes old hat. Right, So,
Speaker 1: as soon as I discovered an amazing song, I will
Speaker 1: only allow myself to listen to it while I'm working
Speaker 1: out from that point on, And like, I'm a really
Speaker 1: non fun wife because my husband sometimes and I will
Speaker 1: discover the song together and we'll be cooking in the evening,
Speaker 1: We'll be having fun. He's like, hey, let's play that
Speaker 1: new album by Casey must Graves, who's one of my
Speaker 1: favorite artists, And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, you
Speaker 1: don't understand that's only like a treadmill elliptical song. Because
Speaker 1: I just feel like I have to protect it and
Speaker 1: save it. But it certainly makes the workout a lot
Speaker 1: more tolerable and a little bit more exciting.
Speaker 2: So greaty, I love pop music too, and I feel
Speaker 2: like we should trade some song recommendations later so we
Speaker 2: can each share no more adordance.
Speaker 1: It's now very seriously tied to my exercise between The
Speaker 1: one thing that can happen is when you temptation bundle.
Speaker 1: Sometimes what can happen is the intrinsic extrinsic motivation balance
Speaker 1: gets thrown off kilter a bit. So it's like, initially
Speaker 1: I'm just using all of my internal will to go exercise,
Speaker 1: but now I've got this extrinsic motivator, which is a song.
Speaker 1: So on the rare occasion where like my headphones are
Speaker 1: out of battery, or like my phone's Wi Fi is
Speaker 1: not working, I'm like, Ooh, I don't know if I
Speaker 1: can do this anymore.
Speaker 2: Just have to make sure your headphones are always working
Speaker 2: and your your iPhone is always charged or whatever.
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm wondering whether for temptation bundling. You see this
Speaker 1: plate on the wild in places that where behavior change
Speaker 1: feels a little bit more serious.
Speaker 2: That's interesting I'm trying to think if I have a
Speaker 2: great answer for you. There's a study I love of
Speaker 2: teachers who are trying to figure out how to motivate
Speaker 2: their students to do more math problems, which kids apparently
Speaker 2: say they like doing math about as myne which is
Speaker 2: they like eating broccoli. So that tells you something about
Speaker 2: how delightful it is. And math is so important to everything,
Speaker 2: as we both know. So these two researchers suggested, basically
Speaker 2: a temptation bundle. What if the kids could, you know,
Speaker 2: listen to music, have snacks markers that they like using,
Speaker 2: and they did that all on the day when they're
Speaker 2: doing their math worksheets, but not at other times. And
Speaker 2: the teachers were sort of skeptical. They were like, I
Speaker 2: think they'll focus left because some'll be distracted. And it
Speaker 2: turned out that kids persisted longer on math when they
Speaker 2: were randomly assigned to groups that had these i'll say
Speaker 2: temptations linked with them. It's not, you know, it's not
Speaker 2: changing their lives in that day. It is cumulative. But
Speaker 2: I think that that's an example of like some of
Speaker 2: the big goals we have in life, whether it's getting
Speaker 2: through your math assignments, or finishing a dissertation, If you
Speaker 2: can find a way to make it more enjoyable, that
Speaker 2: really matters.
Speaker 1: I love the math example, I think for two reasons.
Speaker 1: I mean, the is I just let any time research
Speaker 1: findings violate our expectations. You know, when the teachers are like, Ooh,
Speaker 1: I'm not really sure that this is a good idea.
Speaker 1: But then you're able to generate empirical data that runs
Speaker 1: counter to that hypothesis. That's wonderful because it's moving the
Speaker 1: field forward. And I think the other reason I love
Speaker 1: it is that, you know, success begets success, passion begets passion.
Speaker 1: It's kind of one of those things where if you
Speaker 1: get a kid just through that initial period they're just
Speaker 1: learning the basics, getting over those initial super hard humps,
Speaker 1: then they might actually realize they really like this thing
Speaker 1: and then just becomes easier and easier and easier to
Speaker 1: do every problem from that point forward. So I do
Speaker 1: feel like it can have massive long term effects.
Speaker 3: I'm with you.
Speaker 2: And if they have positive associations with math, I mean,
Speaker 2: what more could we hope for.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back with a slight change of plans.
Speaker 1: In this episode, Doctor Katie Milkin and I are talking
Speaker 1: about the science of change and the different techniques we
Speaker 1: can use to spur on that change. One technique is
Speaker 1: called a commitment device, which locks you into a plan
Speaker 1: to reach your long term goals. The key feature of
Speaker 1: a commitment device is that if you don't follow through
Speaker 1: with your plan, there's some sort of penalty in place.
Speaker 2: I remember, I'm curious if you actually remember the experience
Speaker 2: of first learning about them, because for me, it was
Speaker 2: like mind blowing how powerful they were, and actually mind
Speaker 2: blowing how few people use them given how powerful they are.
Speaker 2: But the study that I love that really I think
Speaker 2: illustrates nicely how much they can help us is a
Speaker 2: study where they partnered with a bank in the Philippines
Speaker 2: that saw low savings rates and wanted to figure out
Speaker 2: if there was a way to help people save more
Speaker 2: so they'd have the ability to have better health, have
Speaker 2: better life outcomes. Where they came up with this idea
Speaker 2: that one of the reasons people were having trouble acumulating
Speaker 2: savings balances is they were constantly tempted to dip in.
Speaker 2: They were like they opened the bank account and they
Speaker 2: put some money aside, but then somebody's birthday or there's
Speaker 2: a holiday, and so the money came right back out
Speaker 2: and it never accumulated. And that people said, you know,
Speaker 2: actually I'd kind of like it if I.
Speaker 3: Couldn't get the money out.
Speaker 2: I like kind of wish I couldn't act on those impulses.
Speaker 2: So they developed this new kind of account. It was
Speaker 2: a commitment savings account. So you put money in and
Speaker 2: you are not allowed to take it out until a
Speaker 2: predetermined date you choose, or a savings goal you choose.
Speaker 2: They offered this kind of account to you know, a
Speaker 2: random subset of customers alongside the usual account with the
Speaker 2: same interest rate, but free in and out access. They
Speaker 2: saved eighty percent more year over year than than the
Speaker 2: control I mean eighty percent more savings. Right, you studied
Speaker 2: savings like that that's life changing.
Speaker 3: So I love that story.
Speaker 2: That's a hard commitment because when you put your money in,
Speaker 2: there is another you know, there's a third party the
Speaker 2: bank that is saying like, you cannot have it. It
Speaker 2: is not accessible to you. I'm preventing I'm preventing you
Speaker 2: from So there's like a hard restriction on access to something.
Speaker 2: And a commitment device is something you voluntarily opt into
Speaker 2: that restricts you or penalizes you in some way if
Speaker 2: you don't achieve your goals or pursue your goals in
Speaker 2: the way you intend to. So that's a hard one
Speaker 2: because there's no fudging it. There's soft commitments in the
Speaker 2: world too, like you know, you tell your partner, your
Speaker 2: mom you're gonna do something, and then they and ask
Speaker 2: them to give you a hard time if you don't.
Speaker 2: That's like a weak commitment device. You're gonna get a
Speaker 2: little you're gonna get ribbed a little bit, or you're
Speaker 2: accountable to someone, but you can back out.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I also remember learning about commitment devices for the
Speaker 1: first time. Gosh, we sound like such nerds. Do you are, Katie?
Speaker 1: Do you remember where you were? Do you remember the
Speaker 1: day you learned about commitment devices? I mean remember exactly
Speaker 1: where I was.
Speaker 4: I mean I'm like, yeah, I was in a classroom.
Speaker 3: My head exploded.
Speaker 4: Where were you?
Speaker 1: I know, I was in my kitchen with my roommates
Speaker 1: and I was reading this paper. I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is so exciting. The researchers ran a study in
Speaker 1: which they had people outline where, when, and how they
Speaker 1: were planning to get vaccinated.
Speaker 3: So that was my study.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, this is so fun. The flu shot
Speaker 1: study I'm talking about is your study. See that's awesome. Okay,
Speaker 1: well the seminal work by doctor Milkman. So in your
Speaker 1: study you ask people, where, when, and how you're going
Speaker 1: to go get vaccinated, right, And I think what was
Speaker 1: so stunning to me is like, you see you write
Speaker 1: down this forum. You know, I'm May at nine am,
Speaker 1: after I drop off my husband at work and I
Speaker 1: go pick up my groceries, I'm going to go to
Speaker 1: the CBS and get my flu vaccine. And what was
Speaker 1: astonishing to me is that it significantly increased the vaccination
Speaker 1: rate despite the fact that you weren't accountable to anyone,
Speaker 1: right in this intervention. You were not required to send
Speaker 1: the letter back to anyone, no one was on your case.
Speaker 1: You were literally just planning it out for yourself. And
Speaker 1: that was enough to significantly drive the numbers up, which
Speaker 1: to me again was such an extraordinary, light lift, low
Speaker 1: cost intervention thatotentially save people's lives. And in your book
Speaker 1: you talk about the fact that we all have a
Speaker 1: fairly maybe not everyone, but many people have a very
Speaker 1: high view of themselves, so they feel like they might
Speaker 1: not benefit that much from commitment devices, and you know,
Speaker 1: we can be very over optimistic about our ability to
Speaker 1: use willpower to avoid temptation. And I'm wondering if you
Speaker 1: have any thoughts or advice for helping people overcome this
Speaker 1: overconfidence so that they can achieve their goals.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 2: Optimism is a really good thing, but in this particular case,
Speaker 2: it plays tricks on us that are problematic because we
Speaker 2: don't in general persevere as much as we think we will,
Speaker 2: and we do tend to be present biased, right, so
Speaker 2: we dramatically overweight whatever value will get from something instantaneously
Speaker 2: rather than the long term value. So you know, I
Speaker 2: can buy a present right now for myself, or I
Speaker 2: can put money in savings take the present, even if
Speaker 2: that's not really good for me in the long run.
Speaker 2: And if we don't appreciate that this disconnect keeps happening,
Speaker 2: and we think we'll just barrel through and do what's
Speaker 2: on in our long term best interest, we don't choose
Speaker 2: to use commitment devices because we don't recognize this challenge.
Speaker 2: So I think it's a really tough nut to crack.
Speaker 2: And for me, the big thing was sort of seeing
Speaker 2: the data and seeing here's the evidence if you see
Speaker 2: it with your own eyes and you see how powerful
Speaker 2: these tools are and how often we do stumble even
Speaker 2: though we think we'll be able to push through. Maybe
Speaker 2: that evidence will be enough to get people to recognize
Speaker 2: this can be a really potent approach.
Speaker 1: You have lots of colorful anecdotes sprinkled throughout of real
Speaker 1: people who are facing these challenges and using these behavioral
Speaker 1: tricks of the trade. And I do feel like in
Speaker 1: many ways you're wielding the power of social norms by saying, hey,
Speaker 1: at least here's a collection of people who are willing
Speaker 1: to acknowledge that they may be a bit over confident
Speaker 1: about their ability to use, for example, willpower to achieve
Speaker 1: their goal, and they're open to using some of these strategies.
Speaker 1: So maybe there could be a positive norm effect that
Speaker 1: comes from people reading your book Fingers Crossed.
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 2: I like that the modeling, And you know, an anytime
Speaker 2: I can use insights about social norms to make the
Speaker 2: world a better place, I'm it's a win.
Speaker 1: What do you see in the future of change research?
Speaker 1: In your ideal future?
Speaker 2: When I think about what I'm most intrigued by and
Speaker 2: feel like we've only scratched the surface of In studying change,
Speaker 2: there's two big things. One is durability. What are the
Speaker 2: kinds of tools that really propel change in an incredibly
Speaker 2: durable way?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: I think a key takeaway for me has been, like,
Speaker 2: never stop doing the thing that's working right. Don't like
Speaker 2: assume you can temptation bundle for a month, then you've
Speaker 2: built an exercise habit and magically, maya you will like
Speaker 2: never need to listen to a pop song again, and
Speaker 2: you'll always want to go to the gym. So you
Speaker 2: got to keep doing that. So we know that, But
Speaker 2: are there any magic that where if you sort of
Speaker 2: can put them on autopilot or do them for a
Speaker 2: little while and they propel you forward. I wonder I
Speaker 2: would love to uncover some if they exist. And then
Speaker 2: the other thing I'm really intrigued by is setbacks and
Speaker 2: how to sort of how to prepare for them and
Speaker 2: recover from them as effectively as possible. I think some
Speaker 2: of the most interesting ideas I have encountered around change
Speaker 2: work because they have some they help us with those setbacks.
Speaker 2: I think fresh starts sort of help us with the setbacks.
Speaker 2: They're like, Okay, wipe the slate clean, I get to
Speaker 2: get up and go again. There's wonderful work by my
Speaker 2: colleague Mursa Sharif on emergency reserves where she's figured out
Speaker 2: these clever ways that you set a tough goal but
Speaker 2: give yourself a couple get out of jeil free cards
Speaker 2: if you can't achieve it every day of the week,
Speaker 2: and found that that's way better than giving yourself sort
Speaker 2: of like a slightly easier goal because you're going for
Speaker 2: the stretch, but you're giving yourself a little leeway. I
Speaker 2: think that also is like about getting back up. So
Speaker 2: I think there's some really fundamental, interesting things to be
Speaker 2: explored around creating structures for success after a setback, and
Speaker 2: I look forward to studying that too.
Speaker 1: Katie, one of the things that I feel most intimidated
Speaker 1: by is this challenge of how it is we can
Speaker 1: change people's minds. It feels like one of those really
Speaker 1: elusive things and there's no one size fits all approach.
Speaker 1: And I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts on
Speaker 1: the most effective strategies you've seen, either in research or
Speaker 1: just in your personal life around how to change people's minds.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's such an interesting question.
Speaker 2: It's obviously really hard, just like behavior change is hard,
Speaker 2: changing opinions is really hard.
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 2: Actually there's some common themes though, and one common theme
Speaker 2: is exploration. So when we talked about the fresh start
Speaker 2: effect and how these disruptions in our lives can lead
Speaker 2: us to sort of be in a new environment and
Speaker 2: you can therefore explore and you don't have old bad
Speaker 2: habits necessarily already built to fall back on, there's also
Speaker 2: an opportunity to do that in terms of mindset shift.
Speaker 2: So I think when we have a set of beliefs
Speaker 2: and expectations, we're less likely to explore and read and
Speaker 2: talk to people outside of our perspective. But if there's
Speaker 2: a moment that creates or forces some experimentation and exploration,
Speaker 2: that can be incredibly powerful.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I like that too, because it's not so pointed, right,
Speaker 1: It's not like I need you to change your opinion
Speaker 1: about this thing. It's let me just try to get
Speaker 1: you to expose yourself to stuff. Period. I'm wondering if
Speaker 1: you have any concrete ideas on how we can motivate
Speaker 1: people to engage in that exploration, because exploration is very uncomfortable, right, Like,
Speaker 1: we all have deeply entrenched views within us. Purposely going
Speaker 1: on a mission to challenge those views is not exactly
Speaker 1: the most fun adventure. It's just it's filled with cognitive dissonance.
Speaker 1: It just feels uncomfortable. And so how do we incentivize
Speaker 1: people to go on those little missions?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: I have to think that a big part of it
Speaker 2: is probably through social norms, which is such a powerful tool.
Speaker 2: For instance, if you end up with a roommate who's
Speaker 2: a good student, your grades are likely to be a
Speaker 2: bit higher.
Speaker 3: So you know, if we point out.
Speaker 2: Others like you who have changed their mind, it gives
Speaker 2: you license to say, like, oh, maybe, like it's reasonable
Speaker 2: for someone like meeting to keep exploring and keep thinking
Speaker 2: about different ideas. I think that might be a way
Speaker 2: that we can introduce this exploration concept and not have
Speaker 2: it be to threatening and have it be appealing.
Speaker 1: I think that's exactly right. I mean, it's reminding me.
Speaker 1: There's this one interview I did with a woman named
Speaker 1: Megan Phelps Roper, and she ends up leaving this hate
Speaker 1: group cult church, and I was asking her, are you
Speaker 1: using your platform today to convince other people? Because there's
Speaker 1: so much research showing the power of a convert. So
Speaker 1: when you hold the views that this person in front
Speaker 1: of you previously held, and then you watch them walk
Speaker 1: you through their journey of changing their minds, it can
Speaker 1: open your mind in a really unique way because you
Speaker 1: feel attached to their former value system. Right. You know
Speaker 1: that you started in the same place, but they ended
Speaker 1: up in a different place. I know the Department of
Speaker 1: Homeland Security uses this inside all the time by recruiting
Speaker 1: former extremists to try to convert potential extremists away from
Speaker 1: that craft.
Speaker 2: It's so interesting too, because I'm thinking about like the original,
Speaker 2: like nineteen fifty five Solomon ash experiments where he'd bring
Speaker 2: all these people into a room and he'd show them
Speaker 2: two cards. One had one line on it and one
Speaker 2: had three and you had to figure out which of
Speaker 2: those three lines was the same like as the one line.
Speaker 2: And it seems like it was really simple task and
Speaker 2: it was fairly straightforward. People didn't get it wrong except
Speaker 2: when he introduced social pressure. So he'd bring a group
Speaker 2: in and have seven of them consistantly give the same
Speaker 2: wrong answer before you give your answer, and people started
Speaker 2: messing up and they're like totally confused, but was really interesting.
Speaker 2: You know, that's the famous finding When everybody else says
Speaker 2: the wrong answer, you go along with it a lot,
Speaker 2: and you actually like believe that you must be seeing things.
Speaker 2: One of my favorite sub findings that I think gets
Speaker 2: less play is that if there's just one truthful person
Speaker 2: in that set, so six people out of the seven
Speaker 2: say the wrong answer, but one says the right answer,
Speaker 2: you're much more likely to follow your intuition and say
Speaker 2: what you really.
Speaker 3: Think is right.
Speaker 2: So anyway, I think that that's interesting in relation to
Speaker 2: the sort of power of the one person who broke free.
Speaker 2: Just seeing one person who agrees with your or shows
Speaker 2: you a slightly different worldview can make it possible for
Speaker 2: you to feel comfortable going against the green.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that. So I really want to get
Speaker 1: your thoughts on this. We are living in a world
Speaker 1: right now where we're almost in like this so help
Speaker 1: moment right where everybody's trying to optimize they're lives, and
Speaker 1: I do wonder where the limits are of that, And
Speaker 1: at one point you have to say, you know what,
Speaker 1: like I just can't spend my whole life trying to optimize.
Speaker 1: I just need to kind of be and live and exist.
Speaker 1: And the reason I asked that is it's alarming to me.
Speaker 1: I'll hear certain people say, oh, yeah, no, it's super
Speaker 1: important to be bored because actually boredom makes you more productive.
Speaker 1: So like, even boredom is now an instrumental thing. We're
Speaker 1: becoming more productive. Like, oh yeah, make sure you stare
Speaker 1: out the window for at least five minutes a day,
Speaker 1: because that'll help you be more productive. I feel like
Speaker 1: sometimes we don't just do things because we just value
Speaker 1: those things. We always do things because they have some
Speaker 1: instrumental value in terms of achieving something else.
Speaker 2: And that's also super interesting, maya, because those are like
Speaker 2: little hacks, right, like, oh, you know, stare out the
Speaker 2: window for five minutes. And if we like fill our
Speaker 2: life with all those little hacks, we actually don't make
Speaker 2: space for the big momentous change.
Speaker 1: That's so interesting. Yeah, and you're saying that because it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's just taking up all your brain airwaves that you're
Speaker 1: not Yeah, you just don't have the time to think macro.
Speaker 1: It's a great point. I think I'll wrap by asking
Speaker 1: what the biggest change you feel you've experienced in your life.
Speaker 2: Is Oh my gosh, there's so many, which is part
Speaker 2: of what makes life so fun. I think, honestly, one
Speaker 2: of the biggest most important changes for me went from
Speaker 2: being focused on figuring out how to.
Speaker 3: Do my own.
Speaker 2: Work or live my own life to taking on the
Speaker 2: role of coaching and helping other people. All of those
Speaker 2: relationships sort of reinforce the same change, which is how
Speaker 2: meaningful it is to be looking out for someone else
Speaker 2: besides yourself, and how much you can learn about everything
Speaker 2: when you are coaching and helping someone else, And that
Speaker 2: helped me actually be better at everything. So I would
Speaker 2: say that's the biggest shift I've had in my life,
Speaker 2: and I hope everyone will get that opportunity to have
Speaker 2: that kind of a shift.
Speaker 1: Wow, what a positive change, What a positive bea to
Speaker 1: end on. I know how busy you are, and I
Speaker 1: know how much you optimize your life in order to
Speaker 1: make room for these kinds of conversations. So thank you
Speaker 1: so much. It was really fun to chat with you.
Speaker 3: This was so fun. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: A slight change of Plans is created an executive produce
Speaker 1: by me Maya Schunker. Big thanks to everyone at Pushkin Industries,
Speaker 1: including our producer MOLA Board, Associate producers David Jaw and
Speaker 1: Julia Goodman, Executive producers Mei Lavelle and Justin Lange, Senior
Speaker 1: editor Jen Guera, and sound design and mixed engineers Ben
Speaker 1: Holliday and Jason Gambrell. Thanks also to Louis gar who
Speaker 1: wrote our theme song, and Ginger Smith who helped arrange
Speaker 1: the vocals, incidental music from Epidemic Sound, and of course
Speaker 1: a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow
Speaker 1: a slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya
Speaker 1: Schunker anytime they violate our Sorry for frog in my throat.
Speaker 1: Actually I'm like, even though I'm a vegetarian, I occasionally
Speaker 1: get a frog. You're not chewing right, so it's not
Speaker 1: chewing fitting it right back out? Hey, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for listening. If you like this episode, you might like
Speaker 1: our conversation with iel at Fischbach, who talks about the
Speaker 1: science of motivation. We've included a link to the episode
Speaker 1: in our show notes. We've also included a link to
Speaker 1: my newsletter, which you can sign up for now and
Speaker 1: which we'll launch very soon. I really appreciate it. Thanks
Speaker 1: much