1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:23,836 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hey, Slight Changers. Before we start today's episode, I 2 00:00:23,876 --> 00:00:27,356 Speaker 1: have an exciting announcement to make. I'm starting a newsletter. 3 00:00:28,036 --> 00:00:31,116 Speaker 1: I'm really looking forward to having another place to connect 4 00:00:31,156 --> 00:00:34,556 Speaker 1: with you all. I'll be sharing personal updates, links to 5 00:00:34,596 --> 00:00:38,636 Speaker 1: what I'm reading or watching lately, exciting new science about change, 6 00:00:38,676 --> 00:00:42,076 Speaker 1: and my top takeaways, and some behind the scenes from 7 00:00:42,116 --> 00:00:45,796 Speaker 1: my conversations on the show. The newsletter is totally free, 8 00:00:46,116 --> 00:00:48,236 Speaker 1: and I'd love it if you could sign up. You 9 00:00:48,276 --> 00:00:51,636 Speaker 1: can find the link in our show notes. Okay, so 10 00:00:51,756 --> 00:00:54,596 Speaker 1: today I want to reshare one of my favorite science 11 00:00:54,636 --> 00:00:57,836 Speaker 1: episodes with you. It features a dear friend of mine 12 00:00:57,956 --> 00:01:01,476 Speaker 1: who also happens to be a rock star behavioral scientist. 13 00:01:02,156 --> 00:01:05,756 Speaker 1: Katie Milkman is an expert on behavior change and how 14 00:01:05,796 --> 00:01:08,676 Speaker 1: we can bridge that important gap between who we are 15 00:01:08,756 --> 00:01:12,316 Speaker 1: right now now and who we want to be. Since 16 00:01:12,436 --> 00:01:15,916 Speaker 1: learning about Katie's research, I've been so much more successful 17 00:01:15,996 --> 00:01:19,636 Speaker 1: at reaching my goals, both big and small and fun. 18 00:01:19,676 --> 00:01:22,116 Speaker 1: Fact which will make more sense after you listen to 19 00:01:22,156 --> 00:01:26,036 Speaker 1: this convo. I've watched far more TV in the process, 20 00:01:26,916 --> 00:01:29,236 Speaker 1: since many of us are just starting to fall off 21 00:01:29,276 --> 00:01:31,756 Speaker 1: the wagon when it comes to our New Year's resolutions. 22 00:01:32,116 --> 00:01:35,076 Speaker 1: I'm hoping this episode can serve as a refresher course 23 00:01:35,116 --> 00:01:39,116 Speaker 1: for you. Katie shares a set of concrete, easy to 24 00:01:39,116 --> 00:01:42,196 Speaker 1: implement strategies that can help you reach your goals and 25 00:01:42,236 --> 00:01:45,316 Speaker 1: become the best version of yourself. I really hope you 26 00:01:45,436 --> 00:01:45,876 Speaker 1: enjoy it. 27 00:01:57,796 --> 00:02:00,916 Speaker 2: My research group has studied this phenomenon where at the 28 00:02:00,956 --> 00:02:04,156 Speaker 2: beginning of sort of a new chapter in your life, 29 00:02:04,436 --> 00:02:07,436 Speaker 2: you are more motivated and likely to make a change. 30 00:02:07,916 --> 00:02:10,836 Speaker 1: That's doctor Katie miltonan author of the book had to. 31 00:02:10,876 --> 00:02:15,876 Speaker 2: Change moments when you leave college and your shift identity 32 00:02:16,036 --> 00:02:18,436 Speaker 2: is and take on a new role, or when you 33 00:02:18,476 --> 00:02:22,436 Speaker 2: become a parent. Those moments they feel like new beginnings 34 00:02:22,436 --> 00:02:25,036 Speaker 2: and chapter breaks in our lives, and they free us 35 00:02:25,076 --> 00:02:28,516 Speaker 2: from the baggage that we had before. A lot of 36 00:02:28,596 --> 00:02:33,476 Speaker 2: people who do make big change are looking at moments 37 00:02:33,516 --> 00:02:35,636 Speaker 2: that feel like breaking points and doing it. 38 00:02:36,756 --> 00:02:40,316 Speaker 1: Katie Milkman's a professor of behavioral economics at the University 39 00:02:40,316 --> 00:02:43,876 Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania. She's also a friend and collaborator. We got 40 00:02:43,916 --> 00:02:45,836 Speaker 1: to work together on some projects when I was in 41 00:02:45,836 --> 00:02:48,596 Speaker 1: the Obama White House, and she happens to be an 42 00:02:48,676 --> 00:02:52,396 Speaker 1: expert on change. As you know, this show is all 43 00:02:52,436 --> 00:02:55,836 Speaker 1: about how people navigate the big changes in life. We're 44 00:02:55,876 --> 00:02:59,036 Speaker 1: talking swing for the fences, change your life type changes. 45 00:02:59,916 --> 00:03:02,396 Speaker 1: What Katie's research has taught me over the years is 46 00:03:02,436 --> 00:03:05,836 Speaker 1: that small tweaks to our mindset and daily behaviors can 47 00:03:05,916 --> 00:03:10,556 Speaker 1: actually inspire big change within ourselves personally, been using insights 48 00:03:10,556 --> 00:03:13,916 Speaker 1: from Katie's research in my own life for a while now. 49 00:03:13,956 --> 00:03:16,636 Speaker 1: In this special episode, Katie and I dive deep into 50 00:03:16,676 --> 00:03:19,756 Speaker 1: the science of change. I hope our conversation will leave 51 00:03:19,756 --> 00:03:22,316 Speaker 1: you at some valuable tips to help you approach change 52 00:03:22,356 --> 00:03:25,876 Speaker 1: differently in your own life. I'm Maya Shunker and this 53 00:03:25,956 --> 00:03:49,436 Speaker 1: is a slight change of plans. Well, Katie, I was 54 00:03:49,476 --> 00:03:52,916 Speaker 1: curious to know how you got into the topic of change. 55 00:03:53,356 --> 00:03:56,556 Speaker 2: Honestly, I was in love with behavioral science, but it 56 00:03:56,596 --> 00:03:58,476 Speaker 2: took me a little while to figure out that I 57 00:03:58,516 --> 00:04:01,636 Speaker 2: wanted to focus on change. And what happened is I 58 00:04:01,716 --> 00:04:05,276 Speaker 2: went to a seminar over at the med school and 59 00:04:05,316 --> 00:04:07,796 Speaker 2: there's a bunch of brilliant people over there thinking about 60 00:04:07,836 --> 00:04:10,116 Speaker 2: behavioral science and medicine. How can we help patients make 61 00:04:10,156 --> 00:04:12,516 Speaker 2: better decisions? How can we improve the decisions of doctors 62 00:04:12,556 --> 00:04:15,156 Speaker 2: as well? And I was in this seminar and a 63 00:04:15,316 --> 00:04:18,436 Speaker 2: graph went up, which normally doesn't change your life, but 64 00:04:18,476 --> 00:04:21,716 Speaker 2: this graph changed my life. The graph just showed a 65 00:04:21,756 --> 00:04:26,236 Speaker 2: breakdown of how many premature deaths are due to different causes, 66 00:04:26,316 --> 00:04:33,956 Speaker 2: from you know, accidents to environment to daily decisions, and 67 00:04:34,076 --> 00:04:36,916 Speaker 2: forty percent of premature deaths turn out to be the 68 00:04:36,956 --> 00:04:39,836 Speaker 2: result of decisions that we can change on a daily 69 00:04:39,876 --> 00:04:42,836 Speaker 2: basis about things like whether or not we drink or smoke, 70 00:04:43,116 --> 00:04:45,556 Speaker 2: what we eat, whether or not we're physically active, we 71 00:04:45,636 --> 00:04:49,236 Speaker 2: buckle our seat belts. Those kinds of decisions accumulate more 72 00:04:49,276 --> 00:04:51,636 Speaker 2: than I could have ever imagined. I had just no 73 00:04:51,716 --> 00:04:55,036 Speaker 2: idea of the magnitude. And when I saw that and realized, 74 00:04:55,076 --> 00:04:58,196 Speaker 2: you know, the tools of behavioral science could be applied 75 00:04:58,316 --> 00:05:02,316 Speaker 2: to improve health outcomes and health decisions, I could have 76 00:05:02,356 --> 00:05:05,436 Speaker 2: this enormous impact. And then I sort of started thinking, like, Okay, well, 77 00:05:05,436 --> 00:05:07,276 Speaker 2: if it matters that much with health, it's sort of 78 00:05:07,316 --> 00:05:12,276 Speaker 2: obvious that emulate in areas like savings and education similarly, 79 00:05:12,316 --> 00:05:15,876 Speaker 2: even if I've never seen an exact breakdown of that sort. 80 00:05:16,076 --> 00:05:19,356 Speaker 2: So that really just got me excited about the potential 81 00:05:19,356 --> 00:05:21,956 Speaker 2: to use this thing that I found so interesting, so 82 00:05:22,156 --> 00:05:26,676 Speaker 2: exciting and fun to actually have an impact. So that 83 00:05:26,756 --> 00:05:29,196 Speaker 2: was That was it for me. I'm really curious about 84 00:05:29,356 --> 00:05:32,836 Speaker 2: how your journey changed, because you've had many career shifts, 85 00:05:33,076 --> 00:05:36,156 Speaker 2: but you certainly went from you know, a more laboratory 86 00:05:36,236 --> 00:05:39,716 Speaker 2: based focus too, you know, jumping into the White House 87 00:05:39,756 --> 00:05:42,996 Speaker 2: to tackle change head on from a policy perspective. 88 00:05:42,996 --> 00:05:45,116 Speaker 3: How did you shift? 89 00:05:46,076 --> 00:05:48,796 Speaker 1: It's interesting because in my mind, my big shift in 90 00:05:48,836 --> 00:05:52,596 Speaker 1: life was from the violin to cognitive science. But I'm 91 00:05:52,636 --> 00:05:54,596 Speaker 1: just remembering, like, oh wait, I also had this other 92 00:05:54,716 --> 00:05:55,796 Speaker 1: really big shift. 93 00:05:56,356 --> 00:05:58,996 Speaker 4: That big changes and changing person to host. 94 00:06:00,756 --> 00:06:02,796 Speaker 1: I think this is true across science too, but certainly 95 00:06:02,796 --> 00:06:04,756 Speaker 1: when we were working in the government, the stakes feel 96 00:06:04,956 --> 00:06:08,476 Speaker 1: so high you just can't screw up because these are 97 00:06:08,556 --> 00:06:11,196 Speaker 1: real people's and they can be affected by the work 98 00:06:11,236 --> 00:06:13,516 Speaker 1: you're doing. And yeah, it's so funny. I mean, we 99 00:06:13,676 --> 00:06:16,316 Speaker 1: actually worked together on some projects. Actually one of them 100 00:06:16,396 --> 00:06:18,836 Speaker 1: used an insight from your book, and it was the 101 00:06:18,836 --> 00:06:21,396 Speaker 1: fresh Start effect. And I'm curious if you can share 102 00:06:21,676 --> 00:06:24,036 Speaker 1: what the fresh Start effect is. It was very exciting 103 00:06:24,076 --> 00:06:26,956 Speaker 1: at the time to have hot off the presses research 104 00:06:27,036 --> 00:06:30,676 Speaker 1: coming out of your lab actually applied to a problem 105 00:06:30,676 --> 00:06:32,356 Speaker 1: that we were trying to solve in the government. 106 00:06:32,836 --> 00:06:36,076 Speaker 2: So my research group has studied this phenomenon where at 107 00:06:36,116 --> 00:06:39,316 Speaker 2: the beginning of sort of a new chapter in your life, 108 00:06:39,716 --> 00:06:42,596 Speaker 2: you are more motivated and likely to make a change. 109 00:06:42,996 --> 00:06:45,636 Speaker 2: And we've often studied small changes in this context, like 110 00:06:45,916 --> 00:06:49,116 Speaker 2: you go to the gym more, or you search on 111 00:06:49,196 --> 00:06:51,796 Speaker 2: Google for the term diet more frequently, or you're more 112 00:06:51,876 --> 00:06:54,156 Speaker 2: likely to set a goal on a goal setting website. 113 00:06:54,396 --> 00:06:58,756 Speaker 2: But I also think you know where the interest in 114 00:06:58,796 --> 00:07:01,756 Speaker 2: this topic came from was the realization that a lot 115 00:07:01,796 --> 00:07:06,236 Speaker 2: of people who do make big change are looking at 116 00:07:06,316 --> 00:07:09,596 Speaker 2: moments that feel like breaking points and doing doing it. 117 00:07:09,676 --> 00:07:12,076 Speaker 2: And so I tell stories about bigger changes in my book, 118 00:07:12,396 --> 00:07:16,996 Speaker 2: moments when you leave college and you shift identity is 119 00:07:17,076 --> 00:07:19,516 Speaker 2: and take on a new role, or when you become 120 00:07:19,556 --> 00:07:23,156 Speaker 2: a parent. Those moments they feel like new beginnings and 121 00:07:23,236 --> 00:07:26,156 Speaker 2: chapter breaks in our lives, and I think they're freeing 122 00:07:26,356 --> 00:07:26,836 Speaker 2: in a way. 123 00:07:26,956 --> 00:07:30,076 Speaker 3: They free us from the baggage that we had before. 124 00:07:30,396 --> 00:07:33,396 Speaker 2: But they can also be freeing psychologically because we feel 125 00:07:33,476 --> 00:07:35,276 Speaker 2: like you're a new person. 126 00:07:35,356 --> 00:07:36,796 Speaker 3: You can take on a new identity. 127 00:07:36,996 --> 00:07:42,036 Speaker 2: Whatever wasn't working before, whatever ambition you failed to have before, 128 00:07:42,316 --> 00:07:44,996 Speaker 2: you could shed that and say okay, now I can 129 00:07:45,036 --> 00:07:46,796 Speaker 2: do it. So anyway, I do think we could study 130 00:07:46,796 --> 00:07:48,756 Speaker 2: big change. And I actually think some of the research 131 00:07:48,996 --> 00:07:52,556 Speaker 2: we've done around small change is inspired by a recognition 132 00:07:52,596 --> 00:07:55,916 Speaker 2: that these might also be the triggers for big change. 133 00:07:56,596 --> 00:07:58,716 Speaker 1: Was there a particular moment in your life where you 134 00:07:58,796 --> 00:08:03,356 Speaker 1: felt the fresh start effect play out, where it really 135 00:08:03,396 --> 00:08:05,036 Speaker 1: felt like a new beginning and there was a certain 136 00:08:05,036 --> 00:08:07,836 Speaker 1: set of habits or behavior changes that you witnessed. 137 00:08:08,156 --> 00:08:10,676 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I mean, you know, I do mesearch 138 00:08:10,716 --> 00:08:15,036 Speaker 2: so totally, meaning like a lot of my research. 139 00:08:14,676 --> 00:08:16,796 Speaker 3: Is motivated by like, oh wow, that's weird. 140 00:08:16,836 --> 00:08:18,516 Speaker 2: I wonder if other people, and then I like asked 141 00:08:18,516 --> 00:08:21,476 Speaker 2: my friends, Oh yes, me too, And then I realized, okay, 142 00:08:21,876 --> 00:08:24,196 Speaker 2: like this might be this might be something we're setting. 143 00:08:24,916 --> 00:08:27,956 Speaker 2: I will say one example that I love is that 144 00:08:28,436 --> 00:08:31,236 Speaker 2: I realized I wanted to write this book for a 145 00:08:31,276 --> 00:08:36,036 Speaker 2: long time. Finally what happened that triggered it? When I 146 00:08:36,236 --> 00:08:40,076 Speaker 2: actually began, my son was three years old. We decided 147 00:08:40,116 --> 00:08:41,636 Speaker 2: we were going to move out of our apartment into 148 00:08:41,636 --> 00:08:44,276 Speaker 2: a house. We bought the house, we signed the papers, 149 00:08:44,356 --> 00:08:46,516 Speaker 2: and that day I said, you know what, I'm ready, 150 00:08:46,716 --> 00:08:47,836 Speaker 2: We're moving to a new house. 151 00:08:48,956 --> 00:08:49,796 Speaker 3: It's a fresh start. 152 00:08:50,076 --> 00:08:51,916 Speaker 2: This is the moment, and the project started from there, 153 00:08:51,956 --> 00:08:53,436 Speaker 2: So that was a big one for me. 154 00:08:53,636 --> 00:08:57,076 Speaker 1: Interesting. One of the anecdots around the fresh Start that 155 00:08:57,156 --> 00:09:01,316 Speaker 1: I love the most is Obama decided that he would 156 00:09:01,356 --> 00:09:06,196 Speaker 1: stop smoking for good when the Affordable Care Act passed, 157 00:09:06,636 --> 00:09:08,916 Speaker 1: and I was like, wait, a next level the fresh 158 00:09:08,916 --> 00:09:11,996 Speaker 1: Start effect, Like he truly chose a once in a 159 00:09:12,036 --> 00:09:14,316 Speaker 1: lifetime experience to anchor his commitment on. 160 00:09:14,516 --> 00:09:16,916 Speaker 2: And it was like aligned on, you know, it was 161 00:09:16,956 --> 00:09:18,796 Speaker 2: aligned on like a health focus. 162 00:09:19,156 --> 00:09:22,236 Speaker 1: Yes, of course, of course Obama went ups all of 163 00:09:22,316 --> 00:09:26,396 Speaker 1: us and does the thing in the best way imaginable. Duh. 164 00:09:26,476 --> 00:09:28,876 Speaker 1: But I do love that, like there's no other future, 165 00:09:28,916 --> 00:09:30,436 Speaker 1: one of those where he can be like, oh maybe 166 00:09:30,436 --> 00:09:32,276 Speaker 1: I can cave a little now, because they'll be this. 167 00:09:32,196 --> 00:09:35,996 Speaker 4: Other right the other time I pass health the other. 168 00:09:35,836 --> 00:09:37,276 Speaker 1: Time I pass healthcare as president. 169 00:09:38,356 --> 00:09:40,636 Speaker 2: I love that anecdote. I don't think I knew that. Actually, 170 00:09:40,716 --> 00:09:43,876 Speaker 2: that's amazing. Have you used the fresh Start effect, maya 171 00:09:43,996 --> 00:09:45,796 Speaker 2: or like in hindsight, have you ever noticed that a 172 00:09:45,796 --> 00:09:46,796 Speaker 2: fresh art shifted. 173 00:09:48,676 --> 00:09:52,196 Speaker 1: I swear, I swear to God every Sunday I'm committing 174 00:09:52,236 --> 00:09:56,236 Speaker 1: to eating healthily. It's just that there's too many damn Sundays, 175 00:09:56,436 --> 00:09:58,996 Speaker 1: and so I always feel like I've gotten next to 176 00:09:58,996 --> 00:10:01,796 Speaker 1: give it a go. Yeah, but yeah, I mean I 177 00:10:01,796 --> 00:10:03,836 Speaker 1: think it's it's hard for so many of us to 178 00:10:05,036 --> 00:10:07,996 Speaker 1: keep our resolutions. And in reading your book, it did 179 00:10:08,076 --> 00:10:13,836 Speaker 1: make me think, Okay, choose really remarkable milestones for pivoting, 180 00:10:13,996 --> 00:10:18,036 Speaker 1: like big moves like when I moved from DC to California, 181 00:10:19,236 --> 00:10:21,996 Speaker 1: getting married, big events like that, because I do think 182 00:10:22,036 --> 00:10:24,636 Speaker 1: you feel like your identity is changing a bit, and 183 00:10:24,956 --> 00:10:28,476 Speaker 1: any behaviors at a company identity shifts might be more sticky, 184 00:10:28,676 --> 00:10:30,156 Speaker 1: or at least they have than in my experience. 185 00:10:30,356 --> 00:10:31,036 Speaker 3: I think that's right. 186 00:10:31,076 --> 00:10:32,756 Speaker 2: And you get the benefit not only of the sort 187 00:10:32,756 --> 00:10:36,196 Speaker 2: of psychological break and the fresh start and opening a 188 00:10:36,236 --> 00:10:39,716 Speaker 2: new chapter, but you also have physical change, which is 189 00:10:39,716 --> 00:10:42,396 Speaker 2: so important to disrupting sort of bad habits or routines 190 00:10:42,436 --> 00:10:44,996 Speaker 2: and giving you that real blank slate to build upon 191 00:10:45,036 --> 00:10:46,396 Speaker 2: and say like, oh, I'm not going to go to 192 00:10:46,436 --> 00:10:48,116 Speaker 2: the burrito shop but very day for. 193 00:10:48,716 --> 00:10:50,556 Speaker 3: Lunch, or you know, whatever your bad habit is that 194 00:10:50,596 --> 00:10:53,396 Speaker 3: you want to kick exactly. Yeah. 195 00:10:53,436 --> 00:10:55,396 Speaker 1: I think one of my favorite insights from the book, 196 00:10:55,476 --> 00:10:57,116 Speaker 1: and it's and it'said I've been using in my own 197 00:10:57,156 --> 00:11:00,596 Speaker 1: life since I read your research years ago, is around 198 00:11:00,636 --> 00:11:03,956 Speaker 1: temptation bundling. Do you mind for sharing what that is? 199 00:11:03,996 --> 00:11:05,476 Speaker 1: And then I'd love to let you know how I've 200 00:11:05,516 --> 00:11:06,076 Speaker 1: been using it. 201 00:11:06,316 --> 00:11:10,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, I hear about your temptation bundling, that this 202 00:11:10,756 --> 00:11:13,996 Speaker 2: is gonna be fun. So temptation bundling is a solution 203 00:11:14,116 --> 00:11:17,036 Speaker 2: I came up with because I had two problems. 204 00:11:17,636 --> 00:11:19,156 Speaker 3: Taking you back to grad school again. 205 00:11:19,236 --> 00:11:21,876 Speaker 2: I was taking all these hard engineering classes and I 206 00:11:21,916 --> 00:11:24,116 Speaker 2: was stressed out, and I'd come home after a long 207 00:11:24,156 --> 00:11:27,636 Speaker 2: day of classes and all I wanted to do was 208 00:11:27,716 --> 00:11:30,716 Speaker 2: just like indulge in entertainment, right like turn on Netflix 209 00:11:30,756 --> 00:11:34,316 Speaker 2: and binge watch TV, read tempting novels. So I just 210 00:11:34,356 --> 00:11:37,076 Speaker 2: wanted I wanted to dive into that and escape my reality, 211 00:11:37,876 --> 00:11:39,796 Speaker 2: and I didn't want to do my problem sets. On 212 00:11:39,836 --> 00:11:42,156 Speaker 2: the flip side, I also knew I should really be 213 00:11:42,316 --> 00:11:46,636 Speaker 2: getting exercise. I was an athlete in college, but again, 214 00:11:46,716 --> 00:11:48,596 Speaker 2: when I came home from a long day, I didn't 215 00:11:48,636 --> 00:11:50,476 Speaker 2: want to put on sweats and go to the gym. 216 00:11:50,556 --> 00:11:53,156 Speaker 2: So these two problems, like I couldn't get myself to 217 00:11:53,156 --> 00:11:55,796 Speaker 2: do my homework because I was procrastinating indulging in all 218 00:11:55,836 --> 00:11:58,476 Speaker 2: this entertainment, and I couldn't get myself to exercise and 219 00:11:58,516 --> 00:12:00,636 Speaker 2: all of a sudden, I realized, like, wait a minute, 220 00:12:00,916 --> 00:12:03,036 Speaker 2: what if I solved them all at once? What if 221 00:12:03,076 --> 00:12:06,796 Speaker 2: I only let myself enjoy this entertainment that I love 222 00:12:06,876 --> 00:12:09,996 Speaker 2: so much while I'm exercising, I'd start craving trips to 223 00:12:10,036 --> 00:12:12,036 Speaker 2: the gym to find out what happens next in my 224 00:12:12,116 --> 00:12:15,316 Speaker 2: latest page turner, and I would stop wasting time at 225 00:12:15,316 --> 00:12:18,196 Speaker 2: home on this sort of literary garbage that normally captures 226 00:12:18,236 --> 00:12:20,516 Speaker 2: my attention. I'd just focus on my problem sets. And 227 00:12:20,556 --> 00:12:23,276 Speaker 2: I started doing it. Was just like magic. I worked 228 00:12:23,276 --> 00:12:25,556 Speaker 2: out every day. Time flew while I was at the 229 00:12:25,556 --> 00:12:28,436 Speaker 2: gym because I was engrossed in Harry Potter or Alex Cross. 230 00:12:28,796 --> 00:12:30,276 Speaker 2: And when I got home, I was ready to work 231 00:12:30,276 --> 00:12:33,396 Speaker 2: because I'd already had my indulgence and I was unastressed out. 232 00:12:33,676 --> 00:12:35,796 Speaker 2: And I also realized like I could use them not 233 00:12:35,876 --> 00:12:38,236 Speaker 2: only to help me exercise, but in lots of places, 234 00:12:38,276 --> 00:12:40,916 Speaker 2: like if you just tie something tempting to a chore, 235 00:12:41,156 --> 00:12:43,716 Speaker 2: you can magically turn it into something you look forward 236 00:12:43,716 --> 00:12:46,276 Speaker 2: to and do less of that indulgent thing and feel 237 00:12:46,276 --> 00:12:49,156 Speaker 2: les guilty about it, Like you know, if only you 238 00:12:49,196 --> 00:12:51,236 Speaker 2: get a glass of wine while you're making a home 239 00:12:51,276 --> 00:12:53,476 Speaker 2: cooked meal, or listen to your favorite podcast while you're 240 00:12:53,476 --> 00:12:54,156 Speaker 2: doing chores. 241 00:12:54,716 --> 00:12:57,036 Speaker 1: For all you listeners who are doing laundry right now, 242 00:12:57,116 --> 00:13:00,116 Speaker 1: Katie and I are carrying you on. Go for it. 243 00:13:00,356 --> 00:13:02,716 Speaker 4: Yes, your temptation bundling. You didn't know there was a 244 00:13:02,756 --> 00:13:03,116 Speaker 4: name for. 245 00:13:03,116 --> 00:13:07,836 Speaker 1: It, Yes, exactly. Okay. So one of my favorite things 246 00:13:07,876 --> 00:13:10,796 Speaker 1: in life is discovering a new pop song that I love. 247 00:13:11,516 --> 00:13:15,276 Speaker 1: And what makes me really sad is that I very quickly, 248 00:13:15,916 --> 00:13:18,876 Speaker 1: like it loses the spark after a certain number of listens, 249 00:13:18,956 --> 00:13:22,356 Speaker 1: like you just know you only have fifteen amazing listens 250 00:13:22,396 --> 00:13:25,996 Speaker 1: of the song and before it kind of becomes old hat. Right, So, 251 00:13:26,116 --> 00:13:29,356 Speaker 1: as soon as I discovered an amazing song, I will 252 00:13:29,516 --> 00:13:31,916 Speaker 1: only allow myself to listen to it while I'm working 253 00:13:31,996 --> 00:13:34,356 Speaker 1: out from that point on, And like, I'm a really 254 00:13:34,396 --> 00:13:36,476 Speaker 1: non fun wife because my husband sometimes and I will 255 00:13:36,476 --> 00:13:39,276 Speaker 1: discover the song together and we'll be cooking in the evening, 256 00:13:39,396 --> 00:13:41,356 Speaker 1: We'll be having fun. He's like, hey, let's play that 257 00:13:41,396 --> 00:13:43,876 Speaker 1: new album by Casey must Graves, who's one of my 258 00:13:43,916 --> 00:13:46,316 Speaker 1: favorite artists, And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, you 259 00:13:46,356 --> 00:13:50,636 Speaker 1: don't understand that's only like a treadmill elliptical song. Because 260 00:13:50,636 --> 00:13:52,516 Speaker 1: I just feel like I have to protect it and 261 00:13:52,556 --> 00:13:54,796 Speaker 1: save it. But it certainly makes the workout a lot 262 00:13:54,836 --> 00:13:57,716 Speaker 1: more tolerable and a little bit more exciting. 263 00:13:57,916 --> 00:14:00,196 Speaker 2: So greaty, I love pop music too, and I feel 264 00:14:00,196 --> 00:14:02,556 Speaker 2: like we should trade some song recommendations later so we 265 00:14:02,556 --> 00:14:05,676 Speaker 2: can each share no more adordance. 266 00:14:05,796 --> 00:14:09,756 Speaker 1: It's now very seriously tied to my exercise between The 267 00:14:09,796 --> 00:14:12,996 Speaker 1: one thing that can happen is when you temptation bundle. 268 00:14:13,476 --> 00:14:18,316 Speaker 1: Sometimes what can happen is the intrinsic extrinsic motivation balance 269 00:14:18,436 --> 00:14:21,556 Speaker 1: gets thrown off kilter a bit. So it's like, initially 270 00:14:21,636 --> 00:14:24,356 Speaker 1: I'm just using all of my internal will to go exercise, 271 00:14:24,396 --> 00:14:26,836 Speaker 1: but now I've got this extrinsic motivator, which is a song. 272 00:14:27,236 --> 00:14:29,236 Speaker 1: So on the rare occasion where like my headphones are 273 00:14:29,276 --> 00:14:31,796 Speaker 1: out of battery, or like my phone's Wi Fi is 274 00:14:31,836 --> 00:14:34,156 Speaker 1: not working, I'm like, Ooh, I don't know if I 275 00:14:34,156 --> 00:14:34,916 Speaker 1: can do this anymore. 276 00:14:35,076 --> 00:14:37,556 Speaker 2: Just have to make sure your headphones are always working 277 00:14:37,596 --> 00:14:40,796 Speaker 2: and your your iPhone is always charged or whatever. 278 00:14:41,876 --> 00:14:46,436 Speaker 1: Yes, I'm wondering whether for temptation bundling. You see this 279 00:14:46,516 --> 00:14:51,516 Speaker 1: plate on the wild in places that where behavior change 280 00:14:51,516 --> 00:14:53,196 Speaker 1: feels a little bit more serious. 281 00:14:53,876 --> 00:14:55,996 Speaker 2: That's interesting I'm trying to think if I have a 282 00:14:55,996 --> 00:15:00,116 Speaker 2: great answer for you. There's a study I love of 283 00:15:00,276 --> 00:15:02,756 Speaker 2: teachers who are trying to figure out how to motivate 284 00:15:03,116 --> 00:15:07,396 Speaker 2: their students to do more math problems, which kids apparently 285 00:15:07,876 --> 00:15:09,316 Speaker 2: say they like doing math about as myne which is 286 00:15:09,356 --> 00:15:11,796 Speaker 2: they like eating broccoli. So that tells you something about 287 00:15:12,116 --> 00:15:16,236 Speaker 2: how delightful it is. And math is so important to everything, 288 00:15:16,876 --> 00:15:22,556 Speaker 2: as we both know. So these two researchers suggested, basically 289 00:15:22,596 --> 00:15:26,076 Speaker 2: a temptation bundle. What if the kids could, you know, 290 00:15:26,116 --> 00:15:29,396 Speaker 2: listen to music, have snacks markers that they like using, 291 00:15:29,476 --> 00:15:30,996 Speaker 2: and they did that all on the day when they're 292 00:15:31,036 --> 00:15:35,436 Speaker 2: doing their math worksheets, but not at other times. And 293 00:15:36,156 --> 00:15:38,396 Speaker 2: the teachers were sort of skeptical. They were like, I 294 00:15:38,436 --> 00:15:41,676 Speaker 2: think they'll focus left because some'll be distracted. And it 295 00:15:41,756 --> 00:15:44,636 Speaker 2: turned out that kids persisted longer on math when they 296 00:15:44,916 --> 00:15:48,516 Speaker 2: were randomly assigned to groups that had these i'll say 297 00:15:48,516 --> 00:15:51,436 Speaker 2: temptations linked with them. It's not, you know, it's not 298 00:15:51,556 --> 00:15:54,556 Speaker 2: changing their lives in that day. It is cumulative. But 299 00:15:54,636 --> 00:15:56,916 Speaker 2: I think that that's an example of like some of 300 00:15:56,956 --> 00:15:59,756 Speaker 2: the big goals we have in life, whether it's getting 301 00:15:59,796 --> 00:16:02,916 Speaker 2: through your math assignments, or finishing a dissertation, If you 302 00:16:02,916 --> 00:16:04,676 Speaker 2: can find a way to make it more enjoyable, that 303 00:16:04,796 --> 00:16:05,476 Speaker 2: really matters. 304 00:16:05,716 --> 00:16:08,636 Speaker 1: I love the math example, I think for two reasons. 305 00:16:08,636 --> 00:16:12,036 Speaker 1: I mean, the is I just let any time research 306 00:16:12,116 --> 00:16:15,596 Speaker 1: findings violate our expectations. You know, when the teachers are like, Ooh, 307 00:16:15,596 --> 00:16:17,556 Speaker 1: I'm not really sure that this is a good idea. 308 00:16:17,676 --> 00:16:20,836 Speaker 1: But then you're able to generate empirical data that runs 309 00:16:20,876 --> 00:16:24,156 Speaker 1: counter to that hypothesis. That's wonderful because it's moving the 310 00:16:24,196 --> 00:16:27,676 Speaker 1: field forward. And I think the other reason I love 311 00:16:27,716 --> 00:16:31,236 Speaker 1: it is that, you know, success begets success, passion begets passion. 312 00:16:31,276 --> 00:16:33,276 Speaker 1: It's kind of one of those things where if you 313 00:16:33,356 --> 00:16:36,236 Speaker 1: get a kid just through that initial period they're just 314 00:16:36,356 --> 00:16:39,236 Speaker 1: learning the basics, getting over those initial super hard humps, 315 00:16:39,916 --> 00:16:42,956 Speaker 1: then they might actually realize they really like this thing 316 00:16:43,356 --> 00:16:45,756 Speaker 1: and then just becomes easier and easier and easier to 317 00:16:45,796 --> 00:16:49,276 Speaker 1: do every problem from that point forward. So I do 318 00:16:49,356 --> 00:16:51,556 Speaker 1: feel like it can have massive long term effects. 319 00:16:52,396 --> 00:16:52,876 Speaker 3: I'm with you. 320 00:16:52,876 --> 00:16:55,356 Speaker 2: And if they have positive associations with math, I mean, 321 00:16:55,436 --> 00:16:56,636 Speaker 2: what more could we hope for. 322 00:17:01,276 --> 00:17:06,836 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with a slight change of plans. 323 00:17:15,116 --> 00:17:17,836 Speaker 1: In this episode, Doctor Katie Milkin and I are talking 324 00:17:17,836 --> 00:17:20,556 Speaker 1: about the science of change and the different techniques we 325 00:17:20,596 --> 00:17:23,716 Speaker 1: can use to spur on that change. One technique is 326 00:17:23,756 --> 00:17:26,716 Speaker 1: called a commitment device, which locks you into a plan 327 00:17:26,836 --> 00:17:29,796 Speaker 1: to reach your long term goals. The key feature of 328 00:17:29,836 --> 00:17:32,236 Speaker 1: a commitment device is that if you don't follow through 329 00:17:32,276 --> 00:17:35,036 Speaker 1: with your plan, there's some sort of penalty in place. 330 00:17:35,836 --> 00:17:38,876 Speaker 2: I remember, I'm curious if you actually remember the experience 331 00:17:38,876 --> 00:17:40,916 Speaker 2: of first learning about them, because for me, it was 332 00:17:40,956 --> 00:17:44,316 Speaker 2: like mind blowing how powerful they were, and actually mind 333 00:17:44,316 --> 00:17:47,156 Speaker 2: blowing how few people use them given how powerful they are. 334 00:17:47,196 --> 00:17:49,596 Speaker 2: But the study that I love that really I think 335 00:17:49,716 --> 00:17:52,916 Speaker 2: illustrates nicely how much they can help us is a 336 00:17:52,956 --> 00:17:56,076 Speaker 2: study where they partnered with a bank in the Philippines 337 00:17:56,476 --> 00:17:58,676 Speaker 2: that saw low savings rates and wanted to figure out 338 00:17:58,676 --> 00:18:00,716 Speaker 2: if there was a way to help people save more 339 00:18:00,756 --> 00:18:03,876 Speaker 2: so they'd have the ability to have better health, have 340 00:18:03,916 --> 00:18:07,116 Speaker 2: better life outcomes. Where they came up with this idea 341 00:18:07,316 --> 00:18:09,596 Speaker 2: that one of the reasons people were having trouble acumulating 342 00:18:09,636 --> 00:18:12,716 Speaker 2: savings balances is they were constantly tempted to dip in. 343 00:18:12,756 --> 00:18:14,636 Speaker 2: They were like they opened the bank account and they 344 00:18:14,716 --> 00:18:17,196 Speaker 2: put some money aside, but then somebody's birthday or there's 345 00:18:17,476 --> 00:18:19,916 Speaker 2: a holiday, and so the money came right back out 346 00:18:20,196 --> 00:18:22,556 Speaker 2: and it never accumulated. And that people said, you know, 347 00:18:22,596 --> 00:18:23,996 Speaker 2: actually I'd kind of like it if I. 348 00:18:23,956 --> 00:18:25,356 Speaker 3: Couldn't get the money out. 349 00:18:25,476 --> 00:18:28,476 Speaker 2: I like kind of wish I couldn't act on those impulses. 350 00:18:28,796 --> 00:18:30,836 Speaker 2: So they developed this new kind of account. It was 351 00:18:30,836 --> 00:18:33,756 Speaker 2: a commitment savings account. So you put money in and 352 00:18:33,876 --> 00:18:35,716 Speaker 2: you are not allowed to take it out until a 353 00:18:35,756 --> 00:18:39,076 Speaker 2: predetermined date you choose, or a savings goal you choose. 354 00:18:39,516 --> 00:18:42,436 Speaker 2: They offered this kind of account to you know, a 355 00:18:42,516 --> 00:18:45,396 Speaker 2: random subset of customers alongside the usual account with the 356 00:18:45,436 --> 00:18:49,116 Speaker 2: same interest rate, but free in and out access. They 357 00:18:49,476 --> 00:18:52,836 Speaker 2: saved eighty percent more year over year than than the 358 00:18:52,876 --> 00:18:57,476 Speaker 2: control I mean eighty percent more savings. Right, you studied 359 00:18:57,476 --> 00:18:59,436 Speaker 2: savings like that that's life changing. 360 00:18:59,876 --> 00:19:01,716 Speaker 3: So I love that story. 361 00:19:01,796 --> 00:19:04,676 Speaker 2: That's a hard commitment because when you put your money in, 362 00:19:04,756 --> 00:19:07,396 Speaker 2: there is another you know, there's a third party the 363 00:19:07,516 --> 00:19:10,556 Speaker 2: bank that is saying like, you cannot have it. It 364 00:19:10,596 --> 00:19:13,076 Speaker 2: is not accessible to you. I'm preventing I'm preventing you 365 00:19:13,076 --> 00:19:15,556 Speaker 2: from So there's like a hard restriction on access to something. 366 00:19:15,676 --> 00:19:18,076 Speaker 2: And a commitment device is something you voluntarily opt into 367 00:19:18,276 --> 00:19:21,316 Speaker 2: that restricts you or penalizes you in some way if 368 00:19:21,316 --> 00:19:23,276 Speaker 2: you don't achieve your goals or pursue your goals in 369 00:19:23,276 --> 00:19:25,156 Speaker 2: the way you intend to. So that's a hard one 370 00:19:25,236 --> 00:19:28,836 Speaker 2: because there's no fudging it. There's soft commitments in the 371 00:19:28,876 --> 00:19:33,156 Speaker 2: world too, like you know, you tell your partner, your 372 00:19:33,316 --> 00:19:35,956 Speaker 2: mom you're gonna do something, and then they and ask 373 00:19:36,036 --> 00:19:38,396 Speaker 2: them to give you a hard time if you don't. 374 00:19:38,716 --> 00:19:40,796 Speaker 2: That's like a weak commitment device. You're gonna get a 375 00:19:40,836 --> 00:19:43,596 Speaker 2: little you're gonna get ribbed a little bit, or you're 376 00:19:43,596 --> 00:19:45,876 Speaker 2: accountable to someone, but you can back out. 377 00:19:46,236 --> 00:19:49,036 Speaker 1: Yeah. I also remember learning about commitment devices for the 378 00:19:49,076 --> 00:19:53,396 Speaker 1: first time. Gosh, we sound like such nerds. Do you are, Katie? 379 00:19:53,396 --> 00:19:55,276 Speaker 1: Do you remember where you were? Do you remember the 380 00:19:55,356 --> 00:19:58,916 Speaker 1: day you learned about commitment devices? I mean remember exactly 381 00:19:58,916 --> 00:19:59,436 Speaker 1: where I was. 382 00:19:59,676 --> 00:20:01,876 Speaker 4: I mean I'm like, yeah, I was in a classroom. 383 00:20:02,036 --> 00:20:02,836 Speaker 3: My head exploded. 384 00:20:03,116 --> 00:20:05,516 Speaker 4: Where were you? 385 00:20:06,116 --> 00:20:08,196 Speaker 1: I know, I was in my kitchen with my roommates 386 00:20:08,236 --> 00:20:09,556 Speaker 1: and I was reading this paper. I was like, oh, 387 00:20:09,556 --> 00:20:12,076 Speaker 1: this is so exciting. The researchers ran a study in 388 00:20:12,076 --> 00:20:14,996 Speaker 1: which they had people outline where, when, and how they 389 00:20:14,996 --> 00:20:16,396 Speaker 1: were planning to get vaccinated. 390 00:20:16,476 --> 00:20:17,796 Speaker 3: So that was my study. 391 00:20:18,036 --> 00:20:20,036 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, this is so fun. The flu shot 392 00:20:20,076 --> 00:20:23,076 Speaker 1: study I'm talking about is your study. See that's awesome. Okay, 393 00:20:23,156 --> 00:20:27,716 Speaker 1: well the seminal work by doctor Milkman. So in your 394 00:20:27,756 --> 00:20:30,236 Speaker 1: study you ask people, where, when, and how you're going 395 00:20:30,276 --> 00:20:32,396 Speaker 1: to go get vaccinated, right, And I think what was 396 00:20:32,436 --> 00:20:34,196 Speaker 1: so stunning to me is like, you see you write 397 00:20:34,196 --> 00:20:36,036 Speaker 1: down this forum. You know, I'm May at nine am, 398 00:20:36,076 --> 00:20:38,676 Speaker 1: after I drop off my husband at work and I 399 00:20:38,716 --> 00:20:40,836 Speaker 1: go pick up my groceries, I'm going to go to 400 00:20:40,836 --> 00:20:43,476 Speaker 1: the CBS and get my flu vaccine. And what was 401 00:20:43,516 --> 00:20:47,596 Speaker 1: astonishing to me is that it significantly increased the vaccination 402 00:20:47,756 --> 00:20:51,156 Speaker 1: rate despite the fact that you weren't accountable to anyone, 403 00:20:51,396 --> 00:20:54,516 Speaker 1: right in this intervention. You were not required to send 404 00:20:54,516 --> 00:20:57,236 Speaker 1: the letter back to anyone, no one was on your case. 405 00:20:57,676 --> 00:21:00,476 Speaker 1: You were literally just planning it out for yourself. And 406 00:21:00,516 --> 00:21:04,036 Speaker 1: that was enough to significantly drive the numbers up, which 407 00:21:04,076 --> 00:21:07,436 Speaker 1: to me again was such an extraordinary, light lift, low 408 00:21:07,516 --> 00:21:11,596 Speaker 1: cost intervention thatotentially save people's lives. And in your book 409 00:21:11,636 --> 00:21:14,356 Speaker 1: you talk about the fact that we all have a 410 00:21:14,396 --> 00:21:17,396 Speaker 1: fairly maybe not everyone, but many people have a very 411 00:21:17,436 --> 00:21:21,956 Speaker 1: high view of themselves, so they feel like they might 412 00:21:21,996 --> 00:21:25,996 Speaker 1: not benefit that much from commitment devices, and you know, 413 00:21:25,996 --> 00:21:29,396 Speaker 1: we can be very over optimistic about our ability to 414 00:21:29,476 --> 00:21:32,676 Speaker 1: use willpower to avoid temptation. And I'm wondering if you 415 00:21:32,716 --> 00:21:35,916 Speaker 1: have any thoughts or advice for helping people overcome this 416 00:21:35,956 --> 00:21:38,796 Speaker 1: overconfidence so that they can achieve their goals. 417 00:21:39,676 --> 00:21:40,436 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny. 418 00:21:40,556 --> 00:21:44,156 Speaker 2: Optimism is a really good thing, but in this particular case, 419 00:21:44,236 --> 00:21:47,836 Speaker 2: it plays tricks on us that are problematic because we 420 00:21:47,956 --> 00:21:52,236 Speaker 2: don't in general persevere as much as we think we will, 421 00:21:52,516 --> 00:21:55,796 Speaker 2: and we do tend to be present biased, right, so 422 00:21:55,836 --> 00:22:01,756 Speaker 2: we dramatically overweight whatever value will get from something instantaneously 423 00:22:02,116 --> 00:22:04,516 Speaker 2: rather than the long term value. So you know, I 424 00:22:04,596 --> 00:22:07,556 Speaker 2: can buy a present right now for myself, or I 425 00:22:07,556 --> 00:22:10,036 Speaker 2: can put money in savings take the present, even if 426 00:22:10,036 --> 00:22:11,476 Speaker 2: that's not really good for me in the long run. 427 00:22:11,596 --> 00:22:15,196 Speaker 2: And if we don't appreciate that this disconnect keeps happening, 428 00:22:15,356 --> 00:22:17,476 Speaker 2: and we think we'll just barrel through and do what's 429 00:22:17,516 --> 00:22:20,036 Speaker 2: on in our long term best interest, we don't choose 430 00:22:20,316 --> 00:22:23,956 Speaker 2: to use commitment devices because we don't recognize this challenge. 431 00:22:23,956 --> 00:22:26,556 Speaker 2: So I think it's a really tough nut to crack. 432 00:22:26,836 --> 00:22:29,556 Speaker 2: And for me, the big thing was sort of seeing 433 00:22:29,596 --> 00:22:33,196 Speaker 2: the data and seeing here's the evidence if you see 434 00:22:33,236 --> 00:22:35,316 Speaker 2: it with your own eyes and you see how powerful 435 00:22:35,356 --> 00:22:37,636 Speaker 2: these tools are and how often we do stumble even 436 00:22:37,676 --> 00:22:39,836 Speaker 2: though we think we'll be able to push through. Maybe 437 00:22:39,836 --> 00:22:42,956 Speaker 2: that evidence will be enough to get people to recognize 438 00:22:43,116 --> 00:22:45,516 Speaker 2: this can be a really potent approach. 439 00:22:46,476 --> 00:22:50,036 Speaker 1: You have lots of colorful anecdotes sprinkled throughout of real 440 00:22:50,116 --> 00:22:53,876 Speaker 1: people who are facing these challenges and using these behavioral 441 00:22:53,916 --> 00:22:56,276 Speaker 1: tricks of the trade. And I do feel like in 442 00:22:56,316 --> 00:22:59,516 Speaker 1: many ways you're wielding the power of social norms by saying, hey, 443 00:22:59,556 --> 00:23:01,516 Speaker 1: at least here's a collection of people who are willing 444 00:23:01,796 --> 00:23:04,996 Speaker 1: to acknowledge that they may be a bit over confident 445 00:23:05,356 --> 00:23:08,796 Speaker 1: about their ability to use, for example, willpower to achieve 446 00:23:08,796 --> 00:23:11,596 Speaker 1: their goal, and they're open to using some of these strategies. 447 00:23:11,956 --> 00:23:14,836 Speaker 1: So maybe there could be a positive norm effect that 448 00:23:14,916 --> 00:23:17,396 Speaker 1: comes from people reading your book Fingers Crossed. 449 00:23:17,436 --> 00:23:17,836 Speaker 3: I love that. 450 00:23:17,836 --> 00:23:21,436 Speaker 2: I like that the modeling, And you know, an anytime 451 00:23:21,436 --> 00:23:23,876 Speaker 2: I can use insights about social norms to make the 452 00:23:23,916 --> 00:23:26,316 Speaker 2: world a better place, I'm it's a win. 453 00:23:28,356 --> 00:23:31,156 Speaker 1: What do you see in the future of change research? 454 00:23:31,356 --> 00:23:32,716 Speaker 1: In your ideal future? 455 00:23:35,076 --> 00:23:38,156 Speaker 2: When I think about what I'm most intrigued by and 456 00:23:38,236 --> 00:23:41,516 Speaker 2: feel like we've only scratched the surface of In studying change, 457 00:23:41,556 --> 00:23:46,636 Speaker 2: there's two big things. One is durability. What are the 458 00:23:46,796 --> 00:23:51,116 Speaker 2: kinds of tools that really propel change in an incredibly 459 00:23:51,196 --> 00:23:51,836 Speaker 2: durable way? 460 00:23:51,876 --> 00:23:52,076 Speaker 3: You know? 461 00:23:52,156 --> 00:23:54,556 Speaker 2: I think a key takeaway for me has been, like, 462 00:23:54,676 --> 00:23:57,236 Speaker 2: never stop doing the thing that's working right. Don't like 463 00:23:57,276 --> 00:23:59,396 Speaker 2: assume you can temptation bundle for a month, then you've 464 00:23:59,396 --> 00:24:01,716 Speaker 2: built an exercise habit and magically, maya you will like 465 00:24:01,876 --> 00:24:03,636 Speaker 2: never need to listen to a pop song again, and 466 00:24:03,676 --> 00:24:05,316 Speaker 2: you'll always want to go to the gym. So you 467 00:24:05,396 --> 00:24:08,036 Speaker 2: got to keep doing that. So we know that, But 468 00:24:08,196 --> 00:24:11,276 Speaker 2: are there any magic that where if you sort of 469 00:24:11,676 --> 00:24:13,396 Speaker 2: can put them on autopilot or do them for a 470 00:24:13,436 --> 00:24:16,236 Speaker 2: little while and they propel you forward. I wonder I 471 00:24:16,236 --> 00:24:19,476 Speaker 2: would love to uncover some if they exist. And then 472 00:24:20,916 --> 00:24:25,876 Speaker 2: the other thing I'm really intrigued by is setbacks and 473 00:24:25,916 --> 00:24:28,756 Speaker 2: how to sort of how to prepare for them and 474 00:24:28,836 --> 00:24:31,196 Speaker 2: recover from them as effectively as possible. I think some 475 00:24:31,236 --> 00:24:34,916 Speaker 2: of the most interesting ideas I have encountered around change 476 00:24:36,116 --> 00:24:39,876 Speaker 2: work because they have some they help us with those setbacks. 477 00:24:39,876 --> 00:24:41,916 Speaker 2: I think fresh starts sort of help us with the setbacks. 478 00:24:41,916 --> 00:24:44,636 Speaker 2: They're like, Okay, wipe the slate clean, I get to 479 00:24:44,756 --> 00:24:47,476 Speaker 2: get up and go again. There's wonderful work by my 480 00:24:47,916 --> 00:24:51,756 Speaker 2: colleague Mursa Sharif on emergency reserves where she's figured out 481 00:24:51,756 --> 00:24:53,876 Speaker 2: these clever ways that you set a tough goal but 482 00:24:53,916 --> 00:24:56,276 Speaker 2: give yourself a couple get out of jeil free cards 483 00:24:56,356 --> 00:24:58,276 Speaker 2: if you can't achieve it every day of the week, 484 00:24:58,556 --> 00:25:01,316 Speaker 2: and found that that's way better than giving yourself sort 485 00:25:01,356 --> 00:25:04,436 Speaker 2: of like a slightly easier goal because you're going for 486 00:25:04,476 --> 00:25:07,476 Speaker 2: the stretch, but you're giving yourself a little leeway. I 487 00:25:07,476 --> 00:25:09,836 Speaker 2: think that also is like about getting back up. So 488 00:25:09,996 --> 00:25:13,396 Speaker 2: I think there's some really fundamental, interesting things to be 489 00:25:13,636 --> 00:25:19,476 Speaker 2: explored around creating structures for success after a setback, and 490 00:25:19,756 --> 00:25:21,356 Speaker 2: I look forward to studying that too. 491 00:25:22,316 --> 00:25:25,916 Speaker 1: Katie, one of the things that I feel most intimidated 492 00:25:25,916 --> 00:25:28,316 Speaker 1: by is this challenge of how it is we can 493 00:25:28,396 --> 00:25:32,676 Speaker 1: change people's minds. It feels like one of those really 494 00:25:32,716 --> 00:25:36,716 Speaker 1: elusive things and there's no one size fits all approach. 495 00:25:37,276 --> 00:25:38,996 Speaker 1: And I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts on 496 00:25:39,476 --> 00:25:43,036 Speaker 1: the most effective strategies you've seen, either in research or 497 00:25:43,076 --> 00:25:45,876 Speaker 1: just in your personal life around how to change people's minds. 498 00:25:46,916 --> 00:25:48,556 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's such an interesting question. 499 00:25:50,876 --> 00:25:53,716 Speaker 2: It's obviously really hard, just like behavior change is hard, 500 00:25:53,996 --> 00:25:55,436 Speaker 2: changing opinions is really hard. 501 00:25:55,476 --> 00:25:55,916 Speaker 3: I think. 502 00:25:56,236 --> 00:26:00,636 Speaker 2: Actually there's some common themes though, and one common theme 503 00:26:01,276 --> 00:26:06,916 Speaker 2: is exploration. So when we talked about the fresh start 504 00:26:06,916 --> 00:26:10,156 Speaker 2: effect and how these disruptions in our lives can lead 505 00:26:10,276 --> 00:26:12,756 Speaker 2: us to sort of be in a new environment and 506 00:26:12,796 --> 00:26:16,116 Speaker 2: you can therefore explore and you don't have old bad 507 00:26:16,116 --> 00:26:19,156 Speaker 2: habits necessarily already built to fall back on, there's also 508 00:26:19,156 --> 00:26:21,996 Speaker 2: an opportunity to do that in terms of mindset shift. 509 00:26:22,116 --> 00:26:25,036 Speaker 2: So I think when we have a set of beliefs 510 00:26:25,236 --> 00:26:29,636 Speaker 2: and expectations, we're less likely to explore and read and 511 00:26:29,756 --> 00:26:35,436 Speaker 2: talk to people outside of our perspective. But if there's 512 00:26:35,476 --> 00:26:40,116 Speaker 2: a moment that creates or forces some experimentation and exploration, 513 00:26:40,316 --> 00:26:42,636 Speaker 2: that can be incredibly powerful. 514 00:26:43,196 --> 00:26:45,316 Speaker 1: Yeah. I like that too, because it's not so pointed, right, 515 00:26:45,356 --> 00:26:47,276 Speaker 1: It's not like I need you to change your opinion 516 00:26:47,276 --> 00:26:50,716 Speaker 1: about this thing. It's let me just try to get 517 00:26:50,756 --> 00:26:54,076 Speaker 1: you to expose yourself to stuff. Period. I'm wondering if 518 00:26:54,116 --> 00:26:57,076 Speaker 1: you have any concrete ideas on how we can motivate 519 00:26:57,116 --> 00:27:02,476 Speaker 1: people to engage in that exploration, because exploration is very uncomfortable, right, Like, 520 00:27:02,516 --> 00:27:07,276 Speaker 1: we all have deeply entrenched views within us. Purposely going 521 00:27:07,316 --> 00:27:10,316 Speaker 1: on a mission to challenge those views is not exactly 522 00:27:10,396 --> 00:27:13,756 Speaker 1: the most fun adventure. It's just it's filled with cognitive dissonance. 523 00:27:13,876 --> 00:27:17,716 Speaker 1: It just feels uncomfortable. And so how do we incentivize 524 00:27:17,796 --> 00:27:21,036 Speaker 1: people to go on those little missions? 525 00:27:21,076 --> 00:27:21,276 Speaker 3: You know? 526 00:27:21,516 --> 00:27:24,236 Speaker 2: I have to think that a big part of it 527 00:27:24,276 --> 00:27:29,836 Speaker 2: is probably through social norms, which is such a powerful tool. 528 00:27:29,876 --> 00:27:31,836 Speaker 2: For instance, if you end up with a roommate who's 529 00:27:32,116 --> 00:27:35,036 Speaker 2: a good student, your grades are likely to be a 530 00:27:35,076 --> 00:27:35,636 Speaker 2: bit higher. 531 00:27:35,756 --> 00:27:38,076 Speaker 3: So you know, if we point out. 532 00:27:39,556 --> 00:27:42,596 Speaker 2: Others like you who have changed their mind, it gives 533 00:27:42,676 --> 00:27:45,796 Speaker 2: you license to say, like, oh, maybe, like it's reasonable 534 00:27:45,796 --> 00:27:48,556 Speaker 2: for someone like meeting to keep exploring and keep thinking 535 00:27:48,556 --> 00:27:51,596 Speaker 2: about different ideas. I think that might be a way 536 00:27:51,636 --> 00:27:55,916 Speaker 2: that we can introduce this exploration concept and not have 537 00:27:55,996 --> 00:27:57,996 Speaker 2: it be to threatening and have it be appealing. 538 00:27:58,316 --> 00:28:00,156 Speaker 1: I think that's exactly right. I mean, it's reminding me. 539 00:28:00,276 --> 00:28:02,316 Speaker 1: There's this one interview I did with a woman named 540 00:28:02,356 --> 00:28:05,276 Speaker 1: Megan Phelps Roper, and she ends up leaving this hate 541 00:28:05,276 --> 00:28:09,196 Speaker 1: group cult church, and I was asking her, are you 542 00:28:09,276 --> 00:28:11,916 Speaker 1: using your platform today to convince other people? Because there's 543 00:28:11,916 --> 00:28:15,316 Speaker 1: so much research showing the power of a convert. So 544 00:28:15,356 --> 00:28:19,356 Speaker 1: when you hold the views that this person in front 545 00:28:19,356 --> 00:28:22,436 Speaker 1: of you previously held, and then you watch them walk 546 00:28:22,476 --> 00:28:25,396 Speaker 1: you through their journey of changing their minds, it can 547 00:28:25,476 --> 00:28:27,436 Speaker 1: open your mind in a really unique way because you 548 00:28:27,476 --> 00:28:29,676 Speaker 1: feel attached to their former value system. Right. You know 549 00:28:29,716 --> 00:28:32,116 Speaker 1: that you started in the same place, but they ended 550 00:28:32,156 --> 00:28:34,116 Speaker 1: up in a different place. I know the Department of 551 00:28:34,116 --> 00:28:37,716 Speaker 1: Homeland Security uses this inside all the time by recruiting 552 00:28:37,796 --> 00:28:42,156 Speaker 1: former extremists to try to convert potential extremists away from 553 00:28:42,236 --> 00:28:42,756 Speaker 1: that craft. 554 00:28:43,156 --> 00:28:45,916 Speaker 2: It's so interesting too, because I'm thinking about like the original, 555 00:28:46,076 --> 00:28:49,876 Speaker 2: like nineteen fifty five Solomon ash experiments where he'd bring 556 00:28:49,956 --> 00:28:52,516 Speaker 2: all these people into a room and he'd show them 557 00:28:52,556 --> 00:28:54,516 Speaker 2: two cards. One had one line on it and one 558 00:28:54,516 --> 00:28:55,956 Speaker 2: had three and you had to figure out which of 559 00:28:55,956 --> 00:28:58,196 Speaker 2: those three lines was the same like as the one line. 560 00:28:58,276 --> 00:29:00,316 Speaker 2: And it seems like it was really simple task and 561 00:29:00,356 --> 00:29:03,596 Speaker 2: it was fairly straightforward. People didn't get it wrong except 562 00:29:03,756 --> 00:29:07,196 Speaker 2: when he introduced social pressure. So he'd bring a group 563 00:29:07,316 --> 00:29:10,156 Speaker 2: in and have seven of them consistantly give the same 564 00:29:10,196 --> 00:29:13,836 Speaker 2: wrong answer before you give your answer, and people started 565 00:29:13,996 --> 00:29:17,196 Speaker 2: messing up and they're like totally confused, but was really interesting. 566 00:29:17,236 --> 00:29:19,796 Speaker 2: You know, that's the famous finding When everybody else says 567 00:29:19,876 --> 00:29:22,036 Speaker 2: the wrong answer, you go along with it a lot, 568 00:29:22,316 --> 00:29:25,156 Speaker 2: and you actually like believe that you must be seeing things. 569 00:29:26,036 --> 00:29:28,676 Speaker 2: One of my favorite sub findings that I think gets 570 00:29:28,796 --> 00:29:31,596 Speaker 2: less play is that if there's just one truthful person 571 00:29:31,636 --> 00:29:34,316 Speaker 2: in that set, so six people out of the seven 572 00:29:34,356 --> 00:29:37,036 Speaker 2: say the wrong answer, but one says the right answer, 573 00:29:37,316 --> 00:29:42,036 Speaker 2: you're much more likely to follow your intuition and say 574 00:29:42,116 --> 00:29:43,076 Speaker 2: what you really. 575 00:29:42,956 --> 00:29:43,636 Speaker 3: Think is right. 576 00:29:43,716 --> 00:29:46,956 Speaker 2: So anyway, I think that that's interesting in relation to 577 00:29:46,956 --> 00:29:50,076 Speaker 2: the sort of power of the one person who broke free. 578 00:29:50,156 --> 00:29:53,996 Speaker 2: Just seeing one person who agrees with your or shows 579 00:29:53,996 --> 00:29:57,036 Speaker 2: you a slightly different worldview can make it possible for 580 00:29:57,076 --> 00:29:59,636 Speaker 2: you to feel comfortable going against the green. 581 00:30:00,196 --> 00:30:02,876 Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that. So I really want to get 582 00:30:02,876 --> 00:30:05,956 Speaker 1: your thoughts on this. We are living in a world 583 00:30:06,076 --> 00:30:09,476 Speaker 1: right now where we're almost in like this so help 584 00:30:09,636 --> 00:30:14,236 Speaker 1: moment right where everybody's trying to optimize they're lives, and 585 00:30:14,276 --> 00:30:16,556 Speaker 1: I do wonder where the limits are of that, And 586 00:30:16,676 --> 00:30:19,476 Speaker 1: at one point you have to say, you know what, 587 00:30:19,676 --> 00:30:22,956 Speaker 1: like I just can't spend my whole life trying to optimize. 588 00:30:23,036 --> 00:30:25,476 Speaker 1: I just need to kind of be and live and exist. 589 00:30:25,876 --> 00:30:27,756 Speaker 1: And the reason I asked that is it's alarming to me. 590 00:30:28,036 --> 00:30:30,836 Speaker 1: I'll hear certain people say, oh, yeah, no, it's super 591 00:30:30,876 --> 00:30:34,516 Speaker 1: important to be bored because actually boredom makes you more productive. 592 00:30:34,676 --> 00:30:37,556 Speaker 1: So like, even boredom is now an instrumental thing. We're 593 00:30:37,596 --> 00:30:39,876 Speaker 1: becoming more productive. Like, oh yeah, make sure you stare 594 00:30:39,916 --> 00:30:42,076 Speaker 1: out the window for at least five minutes a day, 595 00:30:42,076 --> 00:30:44,716 Speaker 1: because that'll help you be more productive. I feel like 596 00:30:44,756 --> 00:30:49,556 Speaker 1: sometimes we don't just do things because we just value 597 00:30:49,596 --> 00:30:51,756 Speaker 1: those things. We always do things because they have some 598 00:30:51,836 --> 00:30:55,236 Speaker 1: instrumental value in terms of achieving something else. 599 00:30:55,516 --> 00:30:58,356 Speaker 2: And that's also super interesting, maya, because those are like 600 00:30:58,436 --> 00:31:00,676 Speaker 2: little hacks, right, like, oh, you know, stare out the 601 00:31:00,676 --> 00:31:03,876 Speaker 2: window for five minutes. And if we like fill our 602 00:31:03,916 --> 00:31:06,516 Speaker 2: life with all those little hacks, we actually don't make 603 00:31:06,516 --> 00:31:09,076 Speaker 2: space for the big momentous change. 604 00:31:09,476 --> 00:31:12,476 Speaker 1: That's so interesting. Yeah, and you're saying that because it's like, oh, 605 00:31:12,516 --> 00:31:15,236 Speaker 1: it's just taking up all your brain airwaves that you're 606 00:31:15,276 --> 00:31:17,876 Speaker 1: not Yeah, you just don't have the time to think macro. 607 00:31:18,076 --> 00:31:21,716 Speaker 1: It's a great point. I think I'll wrap by asking 608 00:31:21,756 --> 00:31:24,796 Speaker 1: what the biggest change you feel you've experienced in your life. 609 00:31:24,556 --> 00:31:29,636 Speaker 2: Is Oh my gosh, there's so many, which is part 610 00:31:29,636 --> 00:31:35,956 Speaker 2: of what makes life so fun. I think, honestly, one 611 00:31:35,996 --> 00:31:39,836 Speaker 2: of the biggest most important changes for me went from 612 00:31:39,876 --> 00:31:43,596 Speaker 2: being focused on figuring out how to. 613 00:31:43,516 --> 00:31:44,796 Speaker 3: Do my own. 614 00:31:46,156 --> 00:31:49,836 Speaker 2: Work or live my own life to taking on the 615 00:31:49,956 --> 00:31:53,796 Speaker 2: role of coaching and helping other people. All of those 616 00:31:53,836 --> 00:31:58,556 Speaker 2: relationships sort of reinforce the same change, which is how 617 00:31:58,596 --> 00:32:01,076 Speaker 2: meaningful it is to be looking out for someone else 618 00:32:01,156 --> 00:32:04,996 Speaker 2: besides yourself, and how much you can learn about everything 619 00:32:05,396 --> 00:32:08,116 Speaker 2: when you are coaching and helping someone else, And that 620 00:32:08,676 --> 00:32:12,476 Speaker 2: helped me actually be better at everything. So I would 621 00:32:12,516 --> 00:32:14,116 Speaker 2: say that's the biggest shift I've had in my life, 622 00:32:14,116 --> 00:32:16,876 Speaker 2: and I hope everyone will get that opportunity to have 623 00:32:16,916 --> 00:32:17,756 Speaker 2: that kind of a shift. 624 00:32:18,796 --> 00:32:21,236 Speaker 1: Wow, what a positive change, What a positive bea to 625 00:32:21,356 --> 00:32:24,796 Speaker 1: end on. I know how busy you are, and I 626 00:32:24,836 --> 00:32:26,996 Speaker 1: know how much you optimize your life in order to 627 00:32:27,036 --> 00:32:29,756 Speaker 1: make room for these kinds of conversations. So thank you 628 00:32:29,876 --> 00:32:31,996 Speaker 1: so much. It was really fun to chat with you. 629 00:32:32,476 --> 00:32:43,116 Speaker 3: This was so fun. Oh my gosh. 630 00:32:44,596 --> 00:32:47,596 Speaker 1: A slight change of Plans is created an executive produce 631 00:32:47,676 --> 00:32:51,676 Speaker 1: by me Maya Schunker. Big thanks to everyone at Pushkin Industries, 632 00:32:52,116 --> 00:32:56,316 Speaker 1: including our producer MOLA Board, Associate producers David Jaw and 633 00:32:56,396 --> 00:33:01,196 Speaker 1: Julia Goodman, Executive producers Mei Lavelle and Justin Lange, Senior 634 00:33:01,396 --> 00:33:05,156 Speaker 1: editor Jen Guera, and sound design and mixed engineers Ben 635 00:33:05,236 --> 00:33:09,556 Speaker 1: Holliday and Jason Gambrell. Thanks also to Louis gar who 636 00:33:09,556 --> 00:33:12,116 Speaker 1: wrote our theme song, and Ginger Smith who helped arrange 637 00:33:12,116 --> 00:33:16,756 Speaker 1: the vocals, incidental music from Epidemic Sound, and of course 638 00:33:16,956 --> 00:33:20,396 Speaker 1: a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow 639 00:33:20,436 --> 00:33:23,276 Speaker 1: a slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya 640 00:33:23,356 --> 00:33:36,836 Speaker 1: Schunker anytime they violate our Sorry for frog in my throat. 641 00:33:37,756 --> 00:33:40,676 Speaker 1: Actually I'm like, even though I'm a vegetarian, I occasionally 642 00:33:40,676 --> 00:33:44,676 Speaker 1: get a frog. You're not chewing right, so it's not 643 00:33:45,236 --> 00:33:50,996 Speaker 1: chewing fitting it right back out? Hey, thanks so much 644 00:33:51,036 --> 00:33:53,916 Speaker 1: for listening. If you like this episode, you might like 645 00:33:53,956 --> 00:33:56,916 Speaker 1: our conversation with iel at Fischbach, who talks about the 646 00:33:56,956 --> 00:34:00,396 Speaker 1: science of motivation. We've included a link to the episode 647 00:34:00,396 --> 00:34:03,236 Speaker 1: in our show notes. We've also included a link to 648 00:34:03,276 --> 00:34:05,876 Speaker 1: my newsletter, which you can sign up for now and 649 00:34:05,916 --> 00:34:08,956 Speaker 1: which we'll launch very soon. I really appreciate it. Thanks 650 00:34:09,316 --> 00:34:09,516 Speaker 1: much