Speaker 1: Guess what mango? What's that? Well, so, probably five or
Speaker 1: six years ago, I was walking down the street in
Speaker 1: New York and my family was with me, and we
Speaker 1: stumbled into some sort of film shoot right there in
Speaker 1: midtown Manhattan, and we see Ben Stiller up ahead of us.
Speaker 1: So I asked my kids, do you know who that is?
Speaker 1: And they actually did recognize him. But take a guess
Speaker 1: as to what role they remembered him from. Mmm, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna say like A Night at the Museum. Well, it's
Speaker 1: a good guess, and they've definitely seen those movies. But actually,
Speaker 1: Penny Rose immediately started singing a cheese is a person
Speaker 1: in your neighborhood, honestly so, and then William joined in,
Speaker 1: so both she and William recognized him from that ridiculous
Speaker 1: role that cameo that he made as the cheese on Sesame.
Speaker 1: It really isn't. And what's wild is when you stop
Speaker 1: to think about all the great songs from Sesame Street
Speaker 1: over the years, and just how my kids and George
Speaker 1: and I all know every word to these songs, and
Speaker 1: I know there are millions of others who could sing
Speaker 1: right along with us. There's a song for every emotion.
Speaker 1: In every situation you think about Oscars, I love Trash
Speaker 1: or my favorite, the snuffle Lullaby You've got kurmits it's
Speaker 1: not easy being green, or one of these things is
Speaker 1: not like the other one. I mean, the list goes
Speaker 1: on and on, and of course I don't want to
Speaker 1: forget the song with the most ridiculous roster of cameos ever,
Speaker 1: and that's put down the Ducky. I mean, I know
Speaker 1: this sounds ridiculous, but do you remember the time, like
Speaker 1: you and I and some of the people tried to
Speaker 1: name all the cameos of the people who are in
Speaker 1: this It's such a ridiculous list, and it felt like
Speaker 1: we named a ton and yet I don't even think
Speaker 1: we got halfway there. Just looking at the list again,
Speaker 1: there was Gladys Night, James Taylor, John Candy, Pee Wee Herman,
Speaker 1: Patty LaBelle, Martina ne Rattle, Loba. I mean, the list
Speaker 1: goes on and on, but I think one of my
Speaker 1: favorite things about it is just how all over the
Speaker 1: place this list was. I know, and you almost get
Speaker 1: the feeling like people were flattered to be asked to
Speaker 1: be in it, right totally. I mean, can you imagine
Speaker 1: that be like the highlight of a career to be
Speaker 1: part of this song. But it's hard to believe that
Speaker 1: Sesame Street will turn fifty next year. And there's no
Speaker 1: telling how many kids have learned something from the show
Speaker 1: over the years. And you know, we did that episode
Speaker 1: about Mr Rogers a few months back and both of
Speaker 1: us just had a blast doing it, So it seemed
Speaker 1: time to do the same thing with Sesame Street. So
Speaker 1: let's dive in. Hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to Part
Speaker 1: Time Genius. I'm Will Pearson and as always I'm joined
Speaker 1: by my good friend man Guesh Ticketer and on the
Speaker 1: other side of the soundproof glass putting the finishing touches
Speaker 1: on his own homemade muppet, that's our friend and producer
Speaker 1: Tristan McNeil. Now, I don't want to hurt any feelings.
Speaker 1: I do have to say it was a noble effort,
Speaker 1: but it's still kind of looks like a mop with
Speaker 1: a pair of googly eyes slapped on it. I don't
Speaker 1: know how you feel about it, I mean, to be fair,
Speaker 1: that's kind of what a muffet is, right Like, I
Speaker 1: actually remember this old Simpsons gag where Lisa asked what
Speaker 1: a muppet is, and Homer says, well, it's not quite
Speaker 1: a mop, and uh, it's not quite a puppet. So
Speaker 1: to answer your question, I don't know. Well he wasn't
Speaker 1: alone and not knowing, and in fact, even Muppet creator
Speaker 1: Jim Henson wasn't so sure. Early in his career, Henson
Speaker 1: said the word muppet was this combination of the words
Speaker 1: marionette and puppet that would make a lot of sense.
Speaker 1: But later interviews found Henson refuting that earlier claim and
Speaker 1: instead insisting that it was just a fun, made up
Speaker 1: word with no deeper meaning. But you know, the word
Speaker 1: itself might not mean much, but the Muppets in the
Speaker 1: world's they inhabit mean quite a lot to millions of
Speaker 1: children and adults alike. So today we're going to celebrate
Speaker 1: the impact by exploring the muppets original stomping grounds, which
Speaker 1: of course is Sesame Street. Now we'll get a sense
Speaker 1: for how the Landmark show got its start, as well
Speaker 1: as what it's like to work behind in this case,
Speaker 1: below the scenes, and along the way we'll learn a
Speaker 1: little bit more about the humans and the Muppets who
Speaker 1: call Sesame Street home. Yeah, but I almost feel like
Speaker 1: we're getting a little ahead of ourselves with all his
Speaker 1: muppet talk, because the way to Sesame Street wasn't actually
Speaker 1: paid with felt puppets, but with a posh Manhattan dinner party.
Speaker 1: And it sounds strange, But in nineteen sixty six, there
Speaker 1: was this executive for the Carnegie Foundation whose name is
Speaker 1: Lloyd Morrissett, and Lloyd struck up this conversation with this
Speaker 1: friend of this, this public television producer named Joan Cooney,
Speaker 1: and Morrissett told her that his daughter loved TV so
Speaker 1: much that she'd actually memorized all her favorite commercials, like
Speaker 1: she memorized the jingle she woke up early to watch TV.
Speaker 1: She'd even wake up so early that she'd watched the
Speaker 1: test patterns before the broadcast started. It's amazing. That's a
Speaker 1: concept that I don't think kids that they could even
Speaker 1: understand it all as like having to wait for some
Speaker 1: of them. That's dedication. But the story kicked off this
Speaker 1: lengthy conversation between Morrissett and Cooney, and they started talking
Speaker 1: about how TV could be aid both entertaining and educational
Speaker 1: for young kids. So they wondered if those same flashy
Speaker 1: techniques that were getting used to make ads for serial
Speaker 1: and toys if those could also be used in educational ways,
Speaker 1: you know, for things like, I guess, teaching the alphabet
Speaker 1: or accounting numbers or whatever. And the two kept their
Speaker 1: conversation going for about three years, and at the heart
Speaker 1: of this conversation was this one guiding question, quote, what
Speaker 1: if educational content went down more like ice cream than spinach? Right?
Speaker 1: So this is where they were asking themselves over and over,
Speaker 1: and to help answer this, Cooney actually wrote this paper
Speaker 1: for the Carnegie Foundation in nineteen sixty seven. It was
Speaker 1: titled the Potential Uses of TV and Preschool Education, and
Speaker 1: the paper actually detailed a small amount of research that
Speaker 1: had been done on the subject up until then, and
Speaker 1: it also included Cooney's own thoughts from interviews with educators
Speaker 1: and child psychologists about I guess what an educational program
Speaker 1: for young kids could look like? So, so what kind
Speaker 1: of stuff did the experts recommend? So I've actually got
Speaker 1: a quote here, So Cooney wrote, nearly everyone I met
Speaker 1: like the you have a daily hour long program, Almost
Speaker 1: all of them one of the letters of the alphabet
Speaker 1: and their sounds as well as numbers included. So they
Speaker 1: took this feedback and they coupled it with this warm
Speaker 1: response from the Carnegie Foundation, and all of this inspired
Speaker 1: Cooney and Morrisset to co found the Children's Television Workshop,
Speaker 1: and this was in Obviously later this gets renamed the
Speaker 1: Sesame Workshop. But one thing Cooney's research hadn't helped with
Speaker 1: was how exactly to convey that traditionally dry material in
Speaker 1: this exciting way that they were talking about. So she
Speaker 1: actually turned to this researcher, this children's researcher at University
Speaker 1: of Michigan named Edward Palmer, and it was his insights
Speaker 1: that helped shape how the show would eventually be structured.
Speaker 1: So think about things like um, his findings showed that
Speaker 1: kids loved music, they loved us slapstick comedy, they loved
Speaker 1: watching animals and other children, but they also disliked unkind characters,
Speaker 1: which was this new finding. And they were also board
Speaker 1: stiff by talking adults, which you know, it sounds obvious
Speaker 1: in hindsight, but in the nineteen sixties, nobody would actually
Speaker 1: put that thought into like what kids would or wouldn't
Speaker 1: respond to on TV, or much less spelled it all
Speaker 1: out for them. Yeah, I mean, looking back, Sesame Street
Speaker 1: really was a pioneer in that regard, and it's pretty
Speaker 1: clear how those findings would push the producers towards this
Speaker 1: idea of using puppets. But actually read that at first,
Speaker 1: Jim Henson wasn't even keen on the idea of doing
Speaker 1: television for children at all. Yeah, that's right. So this
Speaker 1: producer and writer named John Stone actually recommended Henson for
Speaker 1: the project. He'd worked earlier on this Cinderella adaptation that
Speaker 1: I guess never made it to air, But like you said,
Speaker 1: Henson wasn't interested. So he'd actually found success already using
Speaker 1: his puppets on everything from like national commercials to the
Speaker 1: Ed Sullivan Show and even a stint on SNL. Actually,
Speaker 1: this is American Masters about Jim Henson that I've watched,
Speaker 1: i'd say honestly, like a hundred times. And there's a
Speaker 1: bit in it where he and his friends talk about
Speaker 1: how they learned to write comedy from these old vaudeville
Speaker 1: and cat skill comedians, from shows like Ed Sullivan. And
Speaker 1: there's this great scene it's like Rolf where he's boxing
Speaker 1: and he's boxing this bag and he's getting ready for
Speaker 1: a fight, and he reveals his plans about how he's
Speaker 1: going to tackle the fight, and he goes right cross,
Speaker 1: left cross, right cross, left cross, right cross, left cross,
Speaker 1: and he's just getting worked up, right, and then the
Speaker 1: host goes for ralf what if he hits you and
Speaker 1: raw flicks with the camera and goes red cross, blue cross.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's such a catskill joke. But obviously, like
Speaker 1: Jim Henson is starting to get better and better at
Speaker 1: writing for adults and writing comedy, and making the switch
Speaker 1: to show aimed strictly at children kind of felt like
Speaker 1: a step back from him. It's interesting to think about
Speaker 1: it being that way. You know, I've actually sometimes heard
Speaker 1: Jim Henson described as the Walt Disney of puppets or
Speaker 1: or maybe of public television, And you know, that strong
Speaker 1: drive to elevate the public perception of their art form
Speaker 1: is probably another point of overlap. Do you remember that
Speaker 1: story about Disney hating the idea of animation being pigeonholed
Speaker 1: as you know, just children's entertainment. Of course, that's the
Speaker 1: big reason why we have something like Fantasia in the
Speaker 1: first place. And it kind of sounds like Hinson had
Speaker 1: that same kind of chip on his shoulder, So I
Speaker 1: know what you're saying. But that's actually really funny because
Speaker 1: I love Fantasia, and I've read that Disney couldn't stay
Speaker 1: awake during the screenings of it as much to it.
Speaker 1: But you're right. In nine, shortly after taking the job
Speaker 1: on Sesame Street, hence and actually told her reporter what
Speaker 1: I'm against is people's thinking puppets are exclusively four children.
Speaker 1: We've directed or work mostly towards adults, and historically puppets
Speaker 1: have often been for adults. It's only fairly recently that
Speaker 1: puppets have been pushed into strictly children's areas. As a
Speaker 1: theater form, puppetry can do virtually anything, So I'm curious
Speaker 1: what changed his mind about all of this. I mean
Speaker 1: a lot of it was the pressure and pleading from
Speaker 1: Cooney and the rest of the team there, and uh
Speaker 1: Cuney was eventually able to win him over kind of
Speaker 1: by pointing out that if Sesame Street became a success,
Speaker 1: it could be leveraged into like securing funding for other projects.
Speaker 1: So she actually told him, trust me, Jim, it's just
Speaker 1: around the corner. You're not going to be stuck in
Speaker 1: Little Kitty Entertainment. And she actually kept her promise like
Speaker 1: less than a decade after Sesame Street premiered, Henson was
Speaker 1: actually able to launch his own edgier project, a little
Speaker 1: something called The Muffett Show. But back to Sesame So
Speaker 1: the show actually launched with the preview episode called This
Speaker 1: Way to Sesame Street, which aired on NBC on Saturday,
Speaker 1: November eight at five pm. And this was in nine.
Speaker 1: What you said this was? This was on NBC. I know,
Speaker 1: it's crazy, right, So the series didn't air on PBS
Speaker 1: until that following Monday, but the preview on Network TV
Speaker 1: actually helped introduce the idea of the show to parents,
Speaker 1: so they know when to tune in for regular episodes.
Speaker 1: And this was actually a smart idea considering all the
Speaker 1: stuff happening in the world at the time. So this
Speaker 1: is back in November nine, so the moon landing had
Speaker 1: just happened a few months earlier, Nixon was finishing his
Speaker 1: first year in office, and the Zodiac Killer was dominating
Speaker 1: national headlines. So it's almost easy to imagine the premiere
Speaker 1: of a kid's show being lost in all the scuffle.
Speaker 1: But thankfully, like the producers realized what a loss it
Speaker 1: would have been, and they actually took measures to make
Speaker 1: sure Sesame Street got a fair shop, and actually they
Speaker 1: weren't the only ones like that. The end of that
Speaker 1: premiere episode actually featured in appearance by the U S
Speaker 1: Commissioner of Education, and he told the audience Sesame Street
Speaker 1: represents both the historic step forward by the medium of
Speaker 1: TV and an equally significant innovation in mass education. In
Speaker 1: plain words, there never has been before a nationwide TV
Speaker 1: program designed especially to prepare young children for school. Next
Speaker 1: week there will be. Yeah, that's why. And it really
Speaker 1: wasn't an overstatement, and I hadn't really thought about it before.
Speaker 1: But you know, Mr Rogers was on the air at
Speaker 1: that point, but his show was never really aimed at
Speaker 1: preparing kids for school, and it didn't follow any kind
Speaker 1: of research based curriculum. You know, you look at something
Speaker 1: like Sesame Street, where every episode is focused around one
Speaker 1: piece of curriculum, and Mr Rogers was obviously grounded more
Speaker 1: in psychology and emotions. And that's not a knock at
Speaker 1: all against Mr Rogers. We've said before, we're huge fans
Speaker 1: and both shows are super beneficial in their own right. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: and speaking of iconic I I do want to talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about some of the show's more famous aspects.
Speaker 1: So for starters, there's the name itself. Apparently, the team
Speaker 1: went through quite a few names before settling on the
Speaker 1: right one. Some of the early contenders included one to
Speaker 1: three Avenue B and incredibly generic Fund Street. The first
Speaker 1: one was actually in the running, but it got taken
Speaker 1: out because you know, Alphabet City, there's a real address
Speaker 1: in New York that's one to three Avenue B and
Speaker 1: produces where that it would have limited the appeal outside
Speaker 1: of the city. Well, not to mention, you probably get
Speaker 1: kids making pilgrimages to that address trying to find Big
Speaker 1: Bird or their other favorite characters, and they're just being
Speaker 1: devastated when they find like a laundrymat or something. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that's a good point. So it is lucky
Speaker 1: for everyone that this woman Virginia shown was on staff
Speaker 1: at the time and she's the one who suggested the
Speaker 1: word sesame. She'd come across the phrase open sesame, you know,
Speaker 1: from the Arabian Nights and Sinbad Sale, and uh, the
Speaker 1: word kind of strucker as being evocative of these adventures
Speaker 1: in generals. So the team coupled that with the show's
Speaker 1: urban setting and obviously came to Sesame Street. The odd
Speaker 1: part is that they made the decision to like change
Speaker 1: that to the title at the very last minute, and
Speaker 1: obviously we're happy they did. Yeah, I'm glad they got
Speaker 1: that straightened out. But you know, one of the most
Speaker 1: iconic parts of the show to me has always been
Speaker 1: its theme song, Can You Tell Me How to Get
Speaker 1: to Sesame Street? And it's kind of upbeat and whistful
Speaker 1: at the same time, and I guess it's really like
Speaker 1: a lot of the music from the sixties and seventies,
Speaker 1: but it's also got what his hands down, one of
Speaker 1: the best uses of harmonica I have ever heard, and
Speaker 1: I'm not joking. It may sounded like maybe, okay, maybe
Speaker 1: it's a little bit of an exaggeration, but it was
Speaker 1: still pretty awesome Top ten at least. Then it's performed
Speaker 1: by this jazz and blues legend named Jane Toots Feelman's.
Speaker 1: You know, he had this great career playing with all
Speaker 1: the grades everybody from I was just looking at the list,
Speaker 1: You're like Miles Davis, Ella Fantzgerald, Charlie Parker, and it's
Speaker 1: just pretty incredible to see who all he played with.
Speaker 1: But despite all that success, two, it's always had this
Speaker 1: soft spot for his work on Sesame Street. He was
Speaker 1: interviewed back in two thousand and eight and he said
Speaker 1: about it, my playing on the Sesame Street theme has
Speaker 1: always been an important reward on my lapel. That's awesome.
Speaker 1: But you know someone who doesn't look back at the
Speaker 1: song quite so finally, that's Jon Stone. He's that same
Speaker 1: producer we talked about earlier who helped Jim Henson get
Speaker 1: on board here. But uh, Stone actually co wrote the
Speaker 1: theme song with Bruce Hart and this composer Joe Raposa.
Speaker 1: He'd wanted the song to capture that sense of running,
Speaker 1: happily tumbling, playing along the way, but always intent on
Speaker 1: getting to Sesame Street. And you know, I mean that's
Speaker 1: what I think of when I think of the song,
Speaker 1: and I think about like those old versions of Barkley
Speaker 1: romping along and them all running and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I I'd say the song was a huge success, but
Speaker 1: looking back, Stone was actually pretty unhappy with the trio's work,
Speaker 1: or at least the lyrics, which he co wrote. He's
Speaker 1: actually gone on records saying that the lyrics are trite
Speaker 1: and thoughtless, full of happy little cliches like the lions
Speaker 1: sunny day sweeping the clouds away. All Right. I mean,
Speaker 1: maybe that's a little bit cliche, but I feel like
Speaker 1: that's a little harsh. It's it's not exactly Shakespeare. But
Speaker 1: I don't feel like it's bad. I know. But my
Speaker 1: favorite of his criticisms was that some of the references
Speaker 1: would eventually feel dated. Like apparently he scoffed at the
Speaker 1: phrase everything's a okay because he considered it quote astronauts
Speaker 1: slang slang. What's the guy against astronaut? Alright, alright, well,
Speaker 1: since we're taking a backstage look at Sesame Street, we
Speaker 1: should definitely talk about the talented puppeteers who helped bring
Speaker 1: the show's most colorful stars to life. But before we
Speaker 1: get to that, let's take a quick break. You're listening
Speaker 1: to Part Time Genius and we're talking about the story
Speaker 1: of how we got to Sesame Street. All right, Mago,
Speaker 1: so let's take a few minutes to highlight the humble
Speaker 1: muppeteer that that's the unseen men and women who bring
Speaker 1: these muppets to life. Yeah. So, one thing I and
Speaker 1: thought about before doing the research this week is just
Speaker 1: how much of those characters personalities only exist because of
Speaker 1: the puppeteers, Like it isn't just that they control the
Speaker 1: characters movements. Puppeteers on Sesame Street also provide the voices
Speaker 1: for all of their characters. Yeah, that's right. I mean
Speaker 1: the way that it works in most cases is that
Speaker 1: you have a puppeteer crouched on the floor out of shot,
Speaker 1: of course, and their arms are above their heads to
Speaker 1: be able to control the limbs and the mouth flaps
Speaker 1: of you know, whatever character they're performing. I meanwhile, the
Speaker 1: puppeteers also speaking all of their lines in character. They're
Speaker 1: interacting with the adults and the children who are in
Speaker 1: the scene, and many of those are not even trained actors,
Speaker 1: so they're having to hit all their choreograph movements, they're
Speaker 1: having to keep track of where the cameras pointed. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's an insane amount of work just to bring one
Speaker 1: of these muppet characters to life. And then something you
Speaker 1: don't really think about is that, in addition to all
Speaker 1: of these characters, you've got these puppeteers that have to
Speaker 1: avoid bumping into each other. I mean, it's it's twice
Speaker 1: as many as you see on screen there, and so
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a lot of ordered chaos as they're
Speaker 1: organizing all of this. It is really impressive, and I
Speaker 1: mean in some cases it's even more complicated than what
Speaker 1: you just described. Actually, before we go into that, I
Speaker 1: wanted to tell you about this time. I was in
Speaker 1: San Francisco a few years ago and I was with
Speaker 1: my kid cousin and I saw that Brian Henson was
Speaker 1: doing this like adults Muffets show, and so I dragged
Speaker 1: my cousin along and it was great. But at the
Speaker 1: end of it there was this huge finale and it
Speaker 1: was wonderful where all the muppets like sang in unison
Speaker 1: and then they decided to do an encore and the
Speaker 1: muppeteers took the puppets off and did it all again
Speaker 1: with their bare hands, and uh, it was really incredible.
Speaker 1: Like I can't tell you how amazing was to watch
Speaker 1: these hands like basically communicating all this emotion and singing
Speaker 1: and you were just looking at fingers and it was
Speaker 1: almost like, uh, I know you know this, but like
Speaker 1: Eddie Izzard and dressed to kill, Like when when he
Speaker 1: does this show in English and then for an encore
Speaker 1: he does the same show in French. I mean you're
Speaker 1: almost like more amazed by watching him reenact it and
Speaker 1: like how you were laughing at this act that's now
Speaker 1: in this like different language. I mean, that was one
Speaker 1: of my favorite things to watch. I love that. It
Speaker 1: really is incredible. But back to the puppet. So Gabe
Speaker 1: basically pulled a veil on this for me. And there's
Speaker 1: three different kinds of puppets on Sesame Street. So the
Speaker 1: first two are rod puppets, and these are like Almo
Speaker 1: and Kermit, and then arm puppets like Cookie Monster, which
Speaker 1: worked the way you said. So with the rod puppet,
Speaker 1: the performer has one of their hands inside the character
Speaker 1: to control its head, and their free hand controls a
Speaker 1: rod that's attached to the character's arms. And with an
Speaker 1: arm puppet, it's one hand inside the head and one
Speaker 1: hand inside the character's arms. So of course this works
Speaker 1: best with puppets that have thicker arms, like a Cookie
Speaker 1: Monster or Ernie. But then there's also a third kind
Speaker 1: of puppet, and that's a totally different level. Like that's
Speaker 1: the wearable ones where performer actually has to like climb
Speaker 1: inside a body suit. All right, so you're talking about
Speaker 1: characters like Big Bird or for instance, one of my
Speaker 1: favorites Snuphilopagus exactly. So Big Bird's an interesting case because
Speaker 1: he's actually a hybrid wearable arm puppet. So the performer
Speaker 1: puts on Big Bird's legs like a pair of pants,
Speaker 1: and then the body's lowered over him, and one hand
Speaker 1: goes straight up through the neck to control the head,
Speaker 1: and the other hand goes into one of Big Bird's wings.
Speaker 1: And believe it or not, it was just one guy,
Speaker 1: Carol Spinney, who did all of Big Birds puppeteering and
Speaker 1: voice work for over forty five years. And today it's
Speaker 1: one of his former students, this guy named Matt Vogel,
Speaker 1: who wears the big yellow suit. That is pretty amazing.
Speaker 1: He did that character for forty five years. And you know,
Speaker 1: it's a credit to the performers for making those characters
Speaker 1: seem so real. I mean so much so that even
Speaker 1: as an adult now it does feel a little bit
Speaker 1: strange to think about real people inside those characters. I
Speaker 1: know I feel that way too. But why don't we
Speaker 1: leave the puppeteers for a second and uh focus on
Speaker 1: the characters themselves. So to start off, I I do
Speaker 1: want to read this quote from this fantastic book on
Speaker 1: Sesame Street history called Street Gang. It's by Michael Davis,
Speaker 1: but in this part he's talking about what Henson and
Speaker 1: his muppets brought to the show and what made it
Speaker 1: all work. So Davis writes, quote, considering that most muppets
Speaker 1: start out as bath mats with applicase, it's fairly miraculous
Speaker 1: that they seem to have more dimensionality to their personalities
Speaker 1: than do most human characters on TV. Henson understood that
Speaker 1: viewers would suspend their sense of disbelief if they saw
Speaker 1: pieces of themselves and the characters so forgetful Jones had
Speaker 1: a foible, and he was therefore funny and as recognizable
Speaker 1: as the elderly neighbor who always seems surprised when the
Speaker 1: paperboy came to collect on Fridays. The count had an
Speaker 1: obsessive need, and who doesn't, Telly fretted, Oscar cvetched, Ernie
Speaker 1: teased for it was anal and Grover, like most of us, was,
Speaker 1: if not always the superhero, certainly above average. And I
Speaker 1: like that, And I guess they're pretty true to life
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, if if not somewhat exaggerated.
Speaker 1: Like one character Davis mentioned there, telling Monster, he actually
Speaker 1: reminds me of that girl you mentioned earlier, you know,
Speaker 1: Morrisset's daughter who watched the test patterns. You see, Telly
Speaker 1: was originally supposed to be the television Monster, and he
Speaker 1: debuted in nineteen seventy nine as this character, and he
Speaker 1: was a TV junkie and his eyes would get all
Speaker 1: swirly whenever he looked at one and he was being
Speaker 1: hypnotized or something, and so this idea played for a while,
Speaker 1: But then the producers started to think about this and
Speaker 1: they got nervous about what kind of message they were
Speaker 1: sending to their younger viewers. I mean, that makes sense, right,
Speaker 1: And they were making a TV show and probably wasn't
Speaker 1: their best move to have a character who gets all
Speaker 1: zombified like the kids might when they're watching. So from
Speaker 1: then on, telling Monster was just portrayed as this chronic
Speaker 1: worrier instead, you know, because that's that's such a big improvement,
Speaker 1: I guess, I don't know. Well, speaking of hypnotism, did
Speaker 1: you know that Count von Count had the power to
Speaker 1: hypnotize people when he first appeared on the show, and
Speaker 1: this was back in nineteen seventy two. Apparently he was
Speaker 1: much more menacing vampire back then. But he became more
Speaker 1: and more friendly over time, eventually dropping the whole villain part.
Speaker 1: You know, I was actually always a little bit unclear
Speaker 1: on this because I'm curious is Count actually a vampire?
Speaker 1: You know, He's obviously patterned after Bella Leghost, he's take
Speaker 1: on Tracula, but he does seem pretty preoccupied with numbers
Speaker 1: for this creature who's supposedly driven by blood loss. Know,
Speaker 1: I mean, the official line is that the Count is
Speaker 1: not a vampire, but there have also been like times
Speaker 1: when he was referred to as like a number friendly vampire,
Speaker 1: or once he was called a numerical vampire. So here's
Speaker 1: the funniest part, right. In some takes on vampire folklore,
Speaker 1: vampires are actually set to suffer from arith romania, which
Speaker 1: is the overwhelming urge to count the things in front
Speaker 1: of you a rith romania? Is that what you said?
Speaker 1: Is that? Is this a real thing? Apparently it is,
Speaker 1: and and they're even some old European and even like
Speaker 1: Chinese folk tales where people are advised to ward off
Speaker 1: an attacking vampire by throwing a bunch of rice, millet,
Speaker 1: wheat or red lentils at it. Like it's very specific list,
Speaker 1: But the idea is that the vampire would feel so
Speaker 1: compelled to count up all the grains that I guess
Speaker 1: you can slip away as they're obsessed with us. Well,
Speaker 1: I like the idea that it has to be red lentils, like,
Speaker 1: don't even try with the brown ones. That definitely has
Speaker 1: to be red ones. But I do kind of like
Speaker 1: that the count is totally aligned with this vampire lore.
Speaker 1: But you know what, while we're on the subject of
Speaker 1: monster puppets, I do feel like we need to set
Speaker 1: the record straight about another famous one, and that's Cookie Monster.
Speaker 1: And yes, that is still his name, because despite what
Speaker 1: you may have heard, Cookie Monster did not trade in
Speaker 1: his cookies for fresh fruits and vegetables. And that was
Speaker 1: a rumor that got started back in two thousand five.
Speaker 1: And that's because Sesame Street had featured a new song
Speaker 1: and it was called a Cookie is Sometimes Food, And
Speaker 1: so people quickly assumed that the PC police were tinkering
Speaker 1: with everything, and they decided to change this beloved character
Speaker 1: and all his defining traits were going to be stripped away.
Speaker 1: But I mean, here's the thing. The Cookie Moderation song
Speaker 1: wasn't even sung by Cookie Monster. I don't know if
Speaker 1: you remember this. It was sung by Hoots the Owl
Speaker 1: and yeah yeah, And actually the scene ends with Cookie
Speaker 1: Monsters scarfing down a plate of cookies and declaring, now
Speaker 1: is sometimes which I just love that idea. And but nonetheless,
Speaker 1: like the the ugly rumors persisted, and so much so
Speaker 1: in two thousand and seven, Cookie Monster had to have
Speaker 1: a sit down interview you and address these rumors head on.
Speaker 1: So he talked with Matt Lauer and when asked if
Speaker 1: he had given up the cookies, the Monster said, you
Speaker 1: members of media blow story way out of proportion. Me
Speaker 1: still likes cookies. I love that. And and really, Cookie
Speaker 1: Monster is kind of right right, like they were blowing
Speaker 1: it out of proportion. The idea was never that he
Speaker 1: ate nothing but cookies on Sesame Street. For example, back
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy four, he actually appeared in an ad
Speaker 1: for the Nutrition Council where he's seen eating meat, vegetables, fruit, milk,
Speaker 1: and a whistle for dessert, which he claimed would give
Speaker 1: him strong lungs. A whistle like a whistle that you blow. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So that this was a campaign to get kids to
Speaker 1: eat fewer cookies and more whistles. I'm not sure. I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess it was a little misguided on the front,
Speaker 1: but I think their hearts were in the right place. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they probably were. Actually. By the way, did you know
Speaker 1: that Cookie Monster used to go by a couple of
Speaker 1: different names? And this is because the puppet was actually
Speaker 1: recycled from earlier Henson ventures And this included a commerce
Speaker 1: herschel for It was for this wheel shaped snack. It
Speaker 1: was made by General Foods. And this blue monster comes
Speaker 1: along and he's known as the wheel Steeler. And then
Speaker 1: you find during a two thousand four episode of Sesame Street,
Speaker 1: Cookie Muster revealed to the world that prior to his
Speaker 1: cookie eating days, he was simply known as Sid. I
Speaker 1: know his mom didn't call him Cookie Monster. He called
Speaker 1: him Sid. But let's take a quick break and then
Speaker 1: we can talk about some of the finest non puppet
Speaker 1: characters to ever visit Sesame Street. Okay, well, so muffets
Speaker 1: are great and all, but sometimes you just need a
Speaker 1: human touch. And thankfully, Sesame Street has had more than
Speaker 1: a share of celebrity guests over the years, including its
Speaker 1: first guest I've had forgotten. This was James Earl Jones.
Speaker 1: Uh and he read this surprisingly ten reading of the
Speaker 1: alphabet back in the show's first season. But uh, probably
Speaker 1: one of the most bizarre appearances ever goes to Ralph Nader,
Speaker 1: who I didn't realize this, but he appeared on this
Speaker 1: Pledge drive in and the segment showed this chorus sing
Speaker 1: the song the people in your Neighborhood, and Ralph joined
Speaker 1: to sing in the line, A consumer advocate is a
Speaker 1: person in your neighborhood. So chilly. I can't even imagine
Speaker 1: how many kids turned to their parents were like, what
Speaker 1: is a consumer advocate? But but you know they need
Speaker 1: to know that's a pillar of every community, right up
Speaker 1: there with policeman and a firefighter and of course the
Speaker 1: cheese exactly and a friendly. Nader actually refused to even
Speaker 1: sing the song at first because he wanted the lyrics
Speaker 1: change from the people that you meet in your neighborhood
Speaker 1: to the people whom you meet in your neighborhood. It
Speaker 1: would be more grammatically correct. Is crazy? I'm sure he
Speaker 1: was such a pleasure to have on the show, But anyway,
Speaker 1: for for my money, the pinnacle of celebrity appearances really
Speaker 1: has to be when C three P O and R
Speaker 1: two D two landed on Sesame Street back in nine. Um,
Speaker 1: I I believe the song they sang was a protocol
Speaker 1: droid as a person in your neighborhood, right, makes as
Speaker 1: much sense as a consumer advocate, I guess, But I'm
Speaker 1: afraid they didn't say that. Actually, the storyline was that
Speaker 1: the duo had come to deliver this holographic message to Oscar,
Speaker 1: and the message was from a distant relative name Lowthar
Speaker 1: the ground. Of course, this super important, top secret message
Speaker 1: in the end was just get lost, which I just yeah.
Speaker 1: But the droids actually ended up hanging around for I
Speaker 1: think it was a couple of episodes, and and during
Speaker 1: one of those episodes, things really took a turn for
Speaker 1: the strange. I don't know if you remember this what happened. Well,
Speaker 1: for one thing, R two D two inexplicably falls in
Speaker 1: love with a fire high Yeah, fire hyd I mean
Speaker 1: does that feel like love? Well, like I said, it
Speaker 1: was a really weird episode, and so here's what happened.
Speaker 1: Three Po eventually has to break the bad news to
Speaker 1: his clueless body, and he does this by saying, are
Speaker 1: two that's a fire hydrant? Fireman come along attached their
Speaker 1: hoses to it. Turn it on and water comes out,
Speaker 1: and then, of course are two speeds off. He's beeping
Speaker 1: sullenly to himself, and three po tries to comfort him
Speaker 1: with this real gym of a line, so he says, oh,
Speaker 1: are two don't be sad? You know what they say,
Speaker 1: It's better to have loved a fire hydrant than to
Speaker 1: have never loved at all. Oh man, But I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess that's his lesson that like, kids have to
Speaker 1: learn sooner or later, right, I guess so. But anyways,
Speaker 1: speaking of learning lessons, I do want to make sure
Speaker 1: we spent some time on the educational impact of Sesame Street, because,
Speaker 1: you know, going back to its original mission statement, the
Speaker 1: show was always meant to and here here's the quote
Speaker 1: from it promote the intellectual and social growth of preschoolers,
Speaker 1: particularly disadvantaged ones. So with the show coming up on
Speaker 1: its fiftieth birthday next year, I kind of wanted to
Speaker 1: see whether or not it had hit its stated goal. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, I obviously love that idea, but how can
Speaker 1: you even measure something like that, I mean, like measuring
Speaker 1: how media effects intelligence or social qualities like tolerance doesn't
Speaker 1: seem like it would be super easy or straightforward. Well,
Speaker 1: it definitely isn't, but but that hasn't stopped a ton
Speaker 1: of folks from trying. I mean, if you think about it,
Speaker 1: Joan Cooney was conducting research on Sesame Street before the
Speaker 1: show even aired, and since her initial paper there have
Speaker 1: been more than a thousand studies that we're trying to
Speaker 1: find out about the show's efficacy. So what's the verdict. Well,
Speaker 1: according to Sesame Workshop, preschoolers who watched Sesame Street do
Speaker 1: significantly better on a whole range of cognitive outcomes than
Speaker 1: those who don't, And most of the research I've read
Speaker 1: really does bear that out. For example, the National Bureau
Speaker 1: of Economic Research put out a study a few years ago,
Speaker 1: and they were focusing on the very first generation of
Speaker 1: kids to grow up with the show, so this would
Speaker 1: have been back in the nineties seventies, and amazingly, the
Speaker 1: researchers found that kids who had access to the show
Speaker 1: performed better in elementary school than those who lived in
Speaker 1: areas where it wasn't broadcast, and the preschoolers who were
Speaker 1: able to watch, we're more likely to start school on
Speaker 1: time and progress through grade levels of what was considered
Speaker 1: to be the appropriate speed. And then best of all,
Speaker 1: children who were raised in economically disadvantaged situations, they seem
Speaker 1: to be the ones who got the biggest boost from
Speaker 1: the show. And this was a ton of kids were
Speaker 1: talking about because you know, in Sesame Street first debuted,
Speaker 1: it actually had a wider reach than formal preschool services.
Speaker 1: In fact, only nineteen percent of four year olds in
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy attended preschool, but by nineteen seventy, as many
Speaker 1: as thirty six percent of preschool as children in the
Speaker 1: US were watching Sesame Street. So these findings were telling
Speaker 1: enough that the Bureau ultimately concluded that Sesame Street was
Speaker 1: the largest and least costly early childhood intervention that's ever
Speaker 1: been implemented. You know, so while an early childhood education
Speaker 1: program like Headstart cost I want to say, it's something
Speaker 1: like eight thousand dollars per child per year, the annual
Speaker 1: cost of Sesame Street today is about five bucks. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's incredible, But I mean, I I know Sesame Street
Speaker 1: is now an HBO. Do you want to talk about
Speaker 1: how that changes affected the show and perhaps the disadvantaged
Speaker 1: kids the show once was supposed to help, Right, So
Speaker 1: you're talking about the deal that sess me workshop made
Speaker 1: with HBO. I think this was back in two thousand fifteen,
Speaker 1: and it basically secured financing for the show through its
Speaker 1: fiftieth season, so that was definitely a shocking turn of events.
Speaker 1: But it's worth remembering that the deal only grants HBO
Speaker 1: first run, right, so you know it's it's something like
Speaker 1: nine months after each episode's HBO premier, the show airs
Speaker 1: on PBS as they always have, so basically, new episodes
Speaker 1: are still free for everybody as long as you're willing
Speaker 1: to wait a season to get them, which is obviously
Speaker 1: better than nothing. But to be clear, I do love HBO,
Speaker 1: but why the show moved to premium cable It actually
Speaker 1: seems like out of character for what has to be
Speaker 1: like the poster child for public broadcasting. Well, it was
Speaker 1: really one of those do or die decisions that that
Speaker 1: pretty much had to be made to keep the show afloat.
Speaker 1: There was a New York Times article in two thousand
Speaker 1: and fifteen that they did a pretty good job of
Speaker 1: explaining the situation, and so here's how they put it. Historically,
Speaker 1: less than ten percent of the funding for Sesame Street
Speaker 1: episodes came from PBS, with the rest finance through licensing
Speaker 1: revenues such as DVD sales. Sesames business has struggled in
Speaker 1: recent years because of the rapid rise of streaming and
Speaker 1: on demand viewing and the sharp decline in licensing income.
Speaker 1: About two thirds of children now watch Sesame Street on
Speaker 1: demand and do not tune into PBS to watch the show.
Speaker 1: I mean that that is interesting, and I guess when
Speaker 1: PBS wasn't able to cover the difference, the producers had
Speaker 1: to look elsewhere for funding. But I guess the show
Speaker 1: was always depended on wealthier benefactors to help finance the
Speaker 1: show for everybody else. I mean, you think about like
Speaker 1: viewer donations or merchandise sales, but I mean, to me,
Speaker 1: the HBO deal feels like an even bigger step in
Speaker 1: that direction. Like it's harder to say the show is
Speaker 1: made particularly to help disadvantage preschoolers when it airs on HBO. First,
Speaker 1: I mean, I get that, but if you think about it,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure preschoolers would really share that sense of
Speaker 1: being slided. You know, as adults, we can pick apart
Speaker 1: the implication of deals like this and you know, point
Speaker 1: out all the ironies, the potential drawbacks, but in the end,
Speaker 1: a new generation of kids get these new episodes of
Speaker 1: Sesame Street to watch, and from where I'm sitting, that
Speaker 1: seems like a clear win for everybody. No, it definitely is.
Speaker 1: Now we just need to start a petition to get
Speaker 1: Tristan's muppet added to the show, you know, for the kids. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I don't know how much luck we'll have with that,
Speaker 1: but we'll give it a shot. I do think we
Speaker 1: need to keep one thing in mind. I don't think
Speaker 1: he even used the clean mop when he made this,
Speaker 1: But anyway, why why don't we just re channel that
Speaker 1: energy into the fact off. You know, one of the
Speaker 1: things I love about Sesame Street is how they translate
Speaker 1: their characters in other countries. And did you know that
Speaker 1: in Nigeria they refer to Cookie Monster as Zobee the
Speaker 1: Yam Monster. No, of course, Nigerian kids, I guess, don't
Speaker 1: eat cookies the way Americans do. So the show runners
Speaker 1: wanted to make sure the show was promoting a staple
Speaker 1: crop that everybody could eat, so Zobie's cat phrases me
Speaker 1: eat yam. I mean, if you're talking about how characters translated,
Speaker 1: I've got to mention Oscar the Grouch because I love
Speaker 1: that grouchy people are just so universal that every country's
Speaker 1: got one, of course. Yeah, so Pakistan has a guy
Speaker 1: named Aktar. He lives in an oil barrel. In Turkey
Speaker 1: he goes by Kerpick and for some reason he lives
Speaker 1: in a basket. And in Israel, I think we've runa
Speaker 1: mentioned this before, but they've outsourced the job to Oscar's
Speaker 1: cousin in moshif Nick. And apparently mosh has got his
Speaker 1: own style because he lives in an old car instead
Speaker 1: of a trash can, and according to Metal Floss, he's
Speaker 1: also an observant Jew. He celebrates Rashashana by dipping apples
Speaker 1: into sardine Greece for an extra slimy New Year. All right, well,
Speaker 1: here's a character I wish we had that comes from
Speaker 1: the Dutch Sesame Street. It's a daredevil chicken named stunt Kip.
Speaker 1: Stunt Kip is a relatively new bird, but apparently in
Speaker 1: every episode she does something super daring while a frightened
Speaker 1: rabbit interviews her about the feet. But you've got to
Speaker 1: listen to these death defying tricks. So stunt Kip has
Speaker 1: gone on an escalator by herself, used a bathroom without
Speaker 1: flushing herself down the toilet, checked her under a bed
Speaker 1: for monsters, introduced herself the new kids at the playground,
Speaker 1: and perhaps bravest of all, she told her aunt that
Speaker 1: she didn't want seconds of Brussels sprouts after eating all
Speaker 1: of her Brussels sprouts. I write a lot of stunt kip,
Speaker 1: but uh so, you know, Jim Henson is one of
Speaker 1: my heroes. And I always think of Jim Henson as
Speaker 1: like kind of a quiet and sweet fellow, but you
Speaker 1: can actually forget that he could be a little showy too.
Speaker 1: In college, he started this puppet show called Salmon Friends
Speaker 1: that aired on TV and he made some money off it,
Speaker 1: so he used that money to buy a Rolls Royce
Speaker 1: just so you could drive himself to his college graduation.
Speaker 1: In its hilarious. There's so many things about Jim Henson's
Speaker 1: early life that do feel like almost in contrast to
Speaker 1: the rest of his life. But I kind of love that.
Speaker 1: It's great. All right, Well, here's a cool and did
Speaker 1: you know that years before she made cameos on Sesame
Speaker 1: Street and introduced their videos. Of course, Whoopie Goldberg used
Speaker 1: to work as a babysitter on the show, so she'd
Speaker 1: watch over the kids while they were waiting to be
Speaker 1: called onto set. Oh that's amazing. I had no idea.
Speaker 1: So there actually aren't a lot of shows that have
Speaker 1: been taken out of circulation. But have you heard about
Speaker 1: the Sesame Street where Oscar the garage falls in love
Speaker 1: with the wicked Witch of the West. No, that's worse
Speaker 1: than a fire hydrant. Apparently they've reprised the character from
Speaker 1: the Wizard of Oz and he fell in love with
Speaker 1: her because of her green face and I guess horrible disposition.
Speaker 1: But but parents reacted really strongly to the episode. I mean,
Speaker 1: in test audiences, kids were captivated by her face color
Speaker 1: and actually tuned in really closely. But parents mostly wrote
Speaker 1: in that there were a lot of tears and fears
Speaker 1: about having to watch a witch on TV, so they
Speaker 1: pulled the episode from rotation. And also Sesame Street got
Speaker 1: a letter from at least one wickend about perpetuating negative
Speaker 1: stereotypes about witches. Well, and it turns out that isn't
Speaker 1: the only show that got stuck in the cycle. Apparently
Speaker 1: there's one about Snuffy's parents getting divorced that never saw
Speaker 1: the light of day because it was confusing for kids
Speaker 1: and I know. Of course, one of the things I
Speaker 1: appreciate about Sesame Street is how they try to tackle
Speaker 1: some of these really tough topics. But in this episode
Speaker 1: they got really sad because they thought maybe Snuffy's dad
Speaker 1: had run away. And it did get revisited a few
Speaker 1: times later on the show, but not so head on
Speaker 1: as it did in that episode. And there's a Kermit
Speaker 1: the Frog news segment where he interviews a bird whose
Speaker 1: parents live in separate trees, and then where there's the
Speaker 1: character Abby Kadabbi and and and her parents have have separated,
Speaker 1: so they talked about that, but it's not quite the
Speaker 1: same as as the way they had originally done in
Speaker 1: the Snuffy episode. Well, on a slightly happier note, did
Speaker 1: did you realize that Elmo is the only Sesame Street
Speaker 1: character who's testified in front of Congress? Elmo claimed he
Speaker 1: was nervous at the time, and he uh, he testified
Speaker 1: about music education. I guess then this is some of
Speaker 1: the transcript which Elmo, I guess did in Elmo's voice.
Speaker 1: Elmo learned all kinds of things about music, like anyone
Speaker 1: can make music, the whole world is full of music.
Speaker 1: Music helped Elmo learned the alphabet. If it wasn't for
Speaker 1: the ABC song, Elmo would be lost people. Wow, that's
Speaker 1: pretty great. All right, Well, here's what I think. It's fascinating.
Speaker 1: Child psychologists thought it would be too confusing for people
Speaker 1: if kids watched humans and muppets interacting, so they split
Speaker 1: up the scenes. It was all humans and then segments
Speaker 1: with Burton Ernie, the only two characters on the show
Speaker 1: at that point. But in test, kids basically ignored the
Speaker 1: adults and turned away, and then they tuned in for
Speaker 1: the Muppets. And there's a rumor that at one point
Speaker 1: the producers thought about cutting all the adults and just
Speaker 1: making a show about Burton Ernie, which I'm sure it
Speaker 1: would have been amusing in itself. But when they saw
Speaker 1: how well Burton Ernie did on the screen, the writers
Speaker 1: decided to create more characters to build the show around.
Speaker 1: And of course that's how we got Big Bird, Oscar
Speaker 1: the Grouch, Snuphilopoicus and all the others. Even though I
Speaker 1: know so much about Jim Henson, i'd never heard that
Speaker 1: fact before. I really love that. So I'm gonna give
Speaker 1: you the trophy this week. Oh wow, it's such an honor. Well,
Speaker 1: there were so many fact that we wanted to include
Speaker 1: in this episode, and even some other great ones that
Speaker 1: we weren't able to include. So maybe we'll have to
Speaker 1: do another Sesame Streed episode sometime. But for any of
Speaker 1: you that know of some great facts that we might
Speaker 1: not have included today, we'd love to hear those from you.
Speaker 1: You can email us part time genius at how stuff
Speaker 1: works dot com or hit us up on seven Fact
Speaker 1: hot Line. That's one eight four PT Genius, and you
Speaker 1: can always reach us on Facebook or Twitter. Thanks so
Speaker 1: much for listening so well. Well, I I am curious
Speaker 1: do you ever feel akin to any Muppets? Like? Did
Speaker 1: you feel any sort of closeness to any of them? Now?
Speaker 1: I mean I love certain characters, but I don't think
Speaker 1: it was because I felt that I was like them.
Speaker 1: But for some reason, honestly, like I was saying, Snuffy
Speaker 1: was always one of my favorites, and I don't know why.
Speaker 1: I just found him so fascinating, just amusing. How about you.
Speaker 1: I loved Fozzy Vera because he just told bad jokes
Speaker 1: all the time, you know, And I just found his
Speaker 1: character is so fun And I used to get so
Speaker 1: annoyed that everyone would tell me I was like Kermit,
Speaker 1: you know, like I didn't want I didn't want used
Speaker 1: to be my defining character. You don't want that. You
Speaker 1: don't want that. Thanks again for listening. Part Time Genius
Speaker 1: is a production of how stuff works and wouldn't be
Speaker 1: possible without several brilliant people who do the important things
Speaker 1: we couldn't even begin to understand. Tristan McNeil does the
Speaker 1: editing thing. Noel Brown made the theme song and does
Speaker 1: the MIXI mixy sound thing. Jerry Rowland does the exact
Speaker 1: producer thing. Gaveluesier is our lead researcher, with support from
Speaker 1: the Research Army, including Austin Thompson, Nolan Brown and Lucas
Speaker 1: Adams and Eve Jeff Cook gets the show to your ears.
Speaker 1: Good job, Eves. If you like what you heard, we
Speaker 1: hope you'll subscribe, And if you really really like what
Speaker 1: you've heard, maybe you could leave a good review for us.
Speaker 1: Do we do? We forget Jason Jason, who