Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should
Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice
Speaker 1: column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a real session where
Speaker 1: we help people confront their biggest problems and then give
Speaker 1: them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made
Speaker 1: in their lives.
Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,
Speaker 2: a woman who loves her husband worries about his anger
Speaker 2: toward their young children and considers whether she should leave
Speaker 2: him to protect them.
Speaker 3: It's not healthy for our daughter. You need to get
Speaker 3: therapy or we're going to leave so that I can
Speaker 3: protect her first.
Speaker 2: A quick note Deo Therapists is for informational purposes only,
Speaker 2: does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not
Speaker 2: a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Speaker 2: The advice of your physician, mental health professional, or other
Speaker 2: qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding
Speaker 2: a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter, you
Speaker 2: are agreeing to let ihelp media use it in pot
Speaker 2: or in full, and we may edit it for length
Speaker 2: and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear, all names have
Speaker 2: been changed for the privacy of our guests.
Speaker 3: Hey Laurie, Hey Guy.
Speaker 2: So what do we have in our mailbooks today?
Speaker 1: So today we have a letter from a woman who's
Speaker 1: having some difficulty in her relationship, and it goes like this,
Speaker 1: Dear Laurie and Guy, I'm in a really difficult position
Speaker 1: in a relationship that started off five years ago as
Speaker 1: a spontaneous rulw'in in romance and has only mildly dampened
Speaker 1: with time and two young children, a three year old
Speaker 1: daughter and a five month old son. I am still
Speaker 1: in love with my boyfriend Jake and enjoy spending time
Speaker 1: together and as a family. The problem is that during
Speaker 1: my second pregnancy and postpartum, his parenting style towards our
Speaker 1: old has changed, and he is quick to lash out
Speaker 1: at her verbally and emotionally. He is intolerant of her age,
Speaker 1: typical boundary testing and tantrums, and I can see the
Speaker 1: harm done by the way he handles this. Playing referee
Speaker 1: and mediator between what feels like two toddlers is exhausting,
Speaker 1: especially while caring for an infant. It's like I don't
Speaker 1: have a partner to help share the load. His nasty
Speaker 1: demeanor towards our daughter has made me think more than
Speaker 1: once that I should leave him, But paradoxically, I feel
Speaker 1: this will end up with him having more one on
Speaker 1: one time due to a custody agreement where I will
Speaker 1: be unable to do damage control and intervene. There's no abuse,
Speaker 1: and I recognize the value of having time with their dad,
Speaker 1: so sole custody doesn't seem realistic or healthiest. I've approached
Speaker 1: Jake about couples counseling, him, getting anger management counseling, and
Speaker 1: even let him know I was considering leaving. These resulted
Speaker 1: in tears on his end and promises to try to
Speaker 1: get better, but nothing is changed. I feel paralyzed, and
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what arrangement would be best for the kids.
Speaker 1: I also wonder if breaking up would be healthiest for me,
Speaker 1: because if I'm worrying about the kids the entire time
Speaker 1: they're with him, maybe it wouldn't be I would greatly
Speaker 1: appreciate any help figuring this out. Sincerely, Becca.
Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting because Becka says that there's no abuse,
Speaker 2: but lashing out at children verbally is a form of
Speaker 2: emotional abuse, so certainly can be when it's harsh and
Speaker 2: it goes on over time. So I'm really glad that
Speaker 2: Jake is actually joining us today because it sounds like
Speaker 2: something we really need to talk to both parents about
Speaker 2: to get an understanding of what's going on and why
Speaker 2: and what can change there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, emotional violence is abuse, and it has long
Speaker 1: lasting effects and it can be very traumatic, especially when
Speaker 1: it's ongoing. And when it's ongoing, we call that complex
Speaker 1: trauma because it's not one event, it's multiple events happening
Speaker 1: all the time. And it sounds like Jake realizes that
Speaker 1: something needs to change, but he's having trouble doing the changing.
Speaker 1: And that's why I think it's important that we're both
Speaker 1: of them on.
Speaker 2: Every day. We see in our offices people who've had
Speaker 2: an experience in childhood in which their parents would yell
Speaker 2: at them or speak to them very very harshly, and
Speaker 2: they're very damaged by that. So we really have to
Speaker 2: be very clear that how parents speak to their children
Speaker 2: does have a big impact. It doesn't require physical abuse
Speaker 2: to leave a scar. Let's talk to them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's do that.
Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll
Speaker 1: be back after a short break.
Speaker 2: I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is
Speaker 2: Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1: So, Hi Becka, Hi Jake.
Speaker 2: Thank you for coming on the show.
Speaker 4: Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1: So we're glad both of you are here because this
Speaker 1: is an experience that is going on between the two
Speaker 1: of you, and I think before we get to the
Speaker 1: problem that you wrote in about beck with your daughter,
Speaker 1: we wanted to understand a little bit more about earlier
Speaker 1: in your relationship and how you decided to have kids.
Speaker 1: It sounds like you said it was a whirlwind. Everything
Speaker 1: happened very quickly. And since we heard from you already, Becca, Jake,
Speaker 1: why don't you tell us a little bit about your
Speaker 1: experience of early in the relationship and then the first
Speaker 1: pregnancy and first experience of being a parent.
Speaker 4: So none of it was planned. Actually, Becca called me
Speaker 4: and sprung the news on me that she found out
Speaker 4: she was pregnant. So that was a very big shock,
Speaker 4: came completely out of left field.
Speaker 1: When you say it was a shock. Was it a
Speaker 1: good shock, a scary shock? What kind of shock?
Speaker 4: Scary? For sure? I didn't really think I was going
Speaker 4: to possibly even have her have kids. It was something
Speaker 4: that wasn't really thought about that much. I was all
Speaker 4: about having fun cars, motorcycles, friends. Never really gave I
Speaker 4: guess fatherhood a serious thought.
Speaker 1: How old were you at the time.
Speaker 3: I was twenty five when we met, so you would
Speaker 3: have been twenty nine.
Speaker 4: Twenty nine, twenty nine.
Speaker 2: Jake, How did you come to terms then? Given this
Speaker 2: with such a shock, you weren't even thinking you might
Speaker 2: have kids. Now you find out you have one on
Speaker 2: the way. Tell us how you adapted to that. What
Speaker 2: was the process for you?
Speaker 4: I don't really know what the process was. Just kind
Speaker 4: of went with the flow. It was definitely scary the
Speaker 4: entire time, you know, going from possibly never having kids
Speaker 4: still all of a sudden, within the next nine months
Speaker 4: or so, I'm going to have a little, tiny, little baby.
Speaker 1: How long had you known each other at that point
Speaker 1: you or nine months? So, given how new the relationship was,
Speaker 1: had the two of you talked about having a future
Speaker 1: together or was that not even on the table at
Speaker 1: that point in the relationship.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we definitely had the conversation of having a future together.
Speaker 4: Becca's lease where she was living was coming to an end,
Speaker 4: and so was mine, who were starting to discuss getting
Speaker 4: an apartment together. I don't recall if that was before
Speaker 4: after finding out about Isabella, but I did know going
Speaker 4: into her line of work that we would potentially have
Speaker 4: to be relocated at some point, and I was on
Speaker 4: board from the beginning.
Speaker 1: Jake, it sounds like you really didn't think about a
Speaker 1: future with kids. Becca. Did you think about a future
Speaker 1: with kids, and if so, did Jake know that you
Speaker 1: thought about a future with kids.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I actually initially had the thought that I would
Speaker 3: have like four or five kids someday. When Jake and
Speaker 3: I met, it was, as I kind of mentioned, kind
Speaker 3: of like a whirlwind because we spent like pretty much
Speaker 3: every day together for the first six months when on
Speaker 3: all these adventures had a ton of fun. The idea
Speaker 3: of having kids eventually like kind of came up in
Speaker 3: a lighthearted way. Like we were looking over text messages
Speaker 3: the other day and one was like, Uh, he'd message
Speaker 3: me like, Oh, if we do have kids, they would
Speaker 3: be Gerber babies. They'd be so cute. But we never
Speaker 3: had like a serious conversation about it. And I think,
Speaker 3: like from a relationship perspective, I think the first or
Speaker 3: the second night we met, I told him that I
Speaker 3: was in medical school at the time, and I was like, oh,
Speaker 3: you know, in a few months when I match, I
Speaker 3: have no control over where I go, so I don't
Speaker 3: know if we should get into anything. And he was like, oh,
Speaker 3: I'll follow you wherever you go. So I think there
Speaker 3: was like a pretty intense connection early on.
Speaker 1: So when you texted Becca about having Gerber babies together,
Speaker 1: was there a part of you that thought maybe you
Speaker 1: did want kids.
Speaker 4: I think if I was going to have them, it
Speaker 4: would have been later on. Like I said earlier, I
Speaker 4: was still having a lot of fun at the time.
Speaker 4: I was living with a couple of my good friends,
Speaker 4: working Monday through Friday and Surrey and Sunday's, having a blast,
Speaker 4: going on guy trips here and there, and seriously thinking
Speaker 4: about settling down with a family and children was definitely
Speaker 4: way in the back of my mind.
Speaker 2: Jake, So tell me about the discussion between the two
Speaker 2: of you and you get that phone call, since you
Speaker 2: were so blindsided by it, what was the discussion like
Speaker 2: between the two of you about the fact that this
Speaker 2: is happening and how you felt about it.
Speaker 4: It was scary, for sure, getting that information. I didn't
Speaker 4: know the first thing about kids. I didn't have any
Speaker 4: brothers or sisters. I was an only child. The closest
Speaker 4: thing to being around a baby was my cousin's And
Speaker 4: there's a lot to learn.
Speaker 2: So Becca, tell us what happened between the two of you.
Speaker 3: It wasn't something that we thought that deeply about because
Speaker 3: I was on birth control, so I didn't really think
Speaker 3: it was a possibility, and I was very faithful. I
Speaker 3: had an alarm in my phone. Was not planning on
Speaker 3: getting pregnant. So when I started having symptoms, I was
Speaker 3: a and I was like, okay, let me just take
Speaker 3: a test just to put my mind at ease. And
Speaker 3: when it was positive, I know, I started crying. I
Speaker 3: called my best friend and I was like, I don't
Speaker 3: really know what to do. Should I tell Jake now
Speaker 3: or should I wait until he comes to visit next weekend.
Speaker 3: She had said, you know, if it was me, I'd
Speaker 3: probably want to know as soon as possible. So I
Speaker 3: called him and he was definitely really shocked by the news.
Speaker 3: He's normally a very talkative person, and it was pretty silent,
Speaker 3: but he said like, Okay, I just need a little
Speaker 3: bit of time to think about this, but whatever you
Speaker 3: want to do, And over the next couple weeks when
Speaker 3: we talked, it just seemed like he was very much like, Okay,
Speaker 3: ball's in your court, Becca, whatever you want to do,
Speaker 3: I'm behind you one hundred percent. So I thought about
Speaker 3: it and I decided, you know, I did want to
Speaker 3: have multiple kids, and it might not be the most
Speaker 3: ideal circumstance, but I really felt like I had a
Speaker 3: great connection with Jake and could see a future together.
Speaker 3: So we talked and he was okay with us kind
Speaker 3: of moving forward deciding to keep the baby.
Speaker 1: Did you understand how Jake felt or was the messaging
Speaker 1: you were getting just whatever you decide, I'm here. But
Speaker 1: did you understand more of all of the ambivalence and
Speaker 1: terror that he was experiencing.
Speaker 3: I don't think so. I don't think I knew that
Speaker 3: he was scared. I thought there might be like some
Speaker 3: remorse over like the loss of the life that he
Speaker 3: was getting to live. I got definitely the remorse for
Speaker 3: that part of his life, but I didn't know that
Speaker 3: he was scared until today, Actually.
Speaker 1: Jake, why didn't you share that with her?
Speaker 4: And she had a lot on her plate as it
Speaker 4: was going through med school, and I guess it was
Speaker 4: my burden to carry to deal with Definitely not one too.
Speaker 4: I guess share my feelings and put my feelings out there.
Speaker 4: Quite often I kind of bury them and just deal
Speaker 4: with it.
Speaker 2: Is it still something that you feel hesitant to share
Speaker 2: when you're having challenging feelings? Do you still hesitate to
Speaker 2: share them with Becker? Even now.
Speaker 4: On occasion? I just I guess the word is suck
Speaker 4: it up and deal with it would be the best
Speaker 4: way to describe what Typically.
Speaker 2: So it's a decision and it's a philosophy that you
Speaker 2: have that one shouldn't share. It's better for you to
Speaker 2: not let her know how you're feeling about things.
Speaker 4: I mean certain things. If it's a big enough issue,
Speaker 4: yes I would share. But if it's something that's going
Speaker 4: to blow over, or it's it's only a small thing,
Speaker 4: then I'll just deal with it.
Speaker 2: So the question is whether it indeed blows over or
Speaker 2: whether over time these feelings accumulate and then they come
Speaker 2: out in other ways.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's definitely times where I blow up and it
Speaker 4: comes out in anger. For sure. It's usually work related.
Speaker 4: The stresses from work definitely add up. I think I
Speaker 4: let my feelings no pretty well about work.
Speaker 1: You let them be known because you share them with BECO,
Speaker 1: or because you blow up and then it becomes apparent
Speaker 1: that something's bothering you.
Speaker 4: I'd say probably a little bit of both.
Speaker 1: Jake, I'm curious about this idea that you have that
Speaker 1: it's a burden to share your feelings with someone else
Speaker 1: and that it's better if they just kind of blow over.
Speaker 1: Was that something you learned earlier on in life.
Speaker 4: Yeah, my family isn't. Definitely not some a family that
Speaker 4: I guess shares their feelings all that often. Talking about
Speaker 4: our feelings was definitely not something that ever happened.
Speaker 2: Do you see the connection between not expressing your feelings
Speaker 2: unless it's a big deal. Do you see the connection
Speaker 2: between keeping all of those things in and the temper
Speaker 2: and then blowing up and having a short fuse.
Speaker 4: I've always had a temper. I saw therapists quite a
Speaker 4: few years ago for my anger, and in that.
Speaker 2: Work, was it suggested that part of the internal pressure
Speaker 2: you might feel that promotes. The temper might be related
Speaker 2: to the fact that you don't have this release valve
Speaker 2: because you keep things in unless they're really big.
Speaker 4: It's possible during therapy. The big thing that ended up
Speaker 4: changing was me moving out. At the time, I was
Speaker 4: still living at my parents' house, me and my dad
Speaker 4: butt heads quite a bit, and moving out to get
Speaker 4: out of that toxic I guess environment and being out
Speaker 4: with my friends for the first time made a big difference,
Speaker 4: a very big difference.
Speaker 2: But it was that that made the difference, not that
Speaker 2: you learned to regulate those feelings a little better.
Speaker 1: Correct Becca, how much did you know about what Jake's
Speaker 1: talking about right now and the philosophy of I don't
Speaker 1: want to burn people with my feelings and the misconception
Speaker 1: that they'll just go away if I don't talk about them.
Speaker 3: So initially, for the first like year, probably I didn't
Speaker 3: know about it, and he was actually like very even keeled.
Speaker 3: It would come out a little bit when we would
Speaker 3: go to visit his family and he would say like,
Speaker 3: oh me, my dad, but head sometimes even nowadays, like
Speaker 3: I'll leave like water bottles that I've drank around the house,
Speaker 3: And I didn't know until the past couple months that
Speaker 3: it was something that bothered him because he doesn't bring
Speaker 3: up those small things. So it's like I kind of
Speaker 3: wonder sometimes, like what other things do I do that
Speaker 3: bother him that he's just not saying anything about because
Speaker 3: in my mind, I was like, oh, nothing about me
Speaker 3: bothers this guy.
Speaker 1: And he's laughing. So, Jake, it sounds like she's on
Speaker 1: the right track here that maybe there are some other
Speaker 1: things you haven't shared with her.
Speaker 4: It would have to come up at the moment. But
Speaker 4: if she did something, I guess I can't think of anything,
Speaker 4: like right off the top of my head, the water
Speaker 4: bottles is just just a peppeeve of mine, just having
Speaker 4: all these empty plastic water bottles the nightstand and one
Speaker 4: day to put something in it and on her side
Speaker 4: and there was like six empty plastic water bottles, and
Speaker 4: why can't they just be put in the recycling?
Speaker 1: They're just And it was that moment that made you
Speaker 1: bring it up with her, like it had to get
Speaker 1: to the six empty water bottles in the nightstand.
Speaker 4: I don't really know how it was actually brought up.
Speaker 4: It may have been somewhat recent where I cleaned up
Speaker 4: I found a bunch of them, took them all out
Speaker 4: and then to the recycling, came back in and there
Speaker 4: was like three more sitting on the counter that she
Speaker 4: had brought back. I don't know where she pulled them
Speaker 4: out from.
Speaker 2: The water bottles are a great exone because they're a
Speaker 2: small thing and we're laughing about it, but it happens
Speaker 2: a lot, and so that's when we talk about accumulating
Speaker 2: these kinds of feelings. You can see that if you
Speaker 2: count how many water bottles are left around, how often
Speaker 2: it adds up to much more than just a pet peeve.
Speaker 2: And that's why when you feel this accumulation of frustrations,
Speaker 2: it is important to express and address it. I do
Speaker 2: want to go to Isabella because I want to hear
Speaker 2: Jake what that experience was like. The fear is very
Speaker 2: very appropriate when you're having your first child, but were
Speaker 2: you also excited? How did it feel when she was born,
Speaker 2: when you were holding her. I'd like to hear about
Speaker 2: your experience.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was exciting. As scary as it was, it
Speaker 4: was nice. Had no idea what I was getting into,
Speaker 4: but she was this perfect little thing. I have a
Speaker 4: selfie that I took in the hospital holding her and
Speaker 4: her eyes are open staring at the camera, and it
Speaker 4: just yeah, it was a nice moment. I actually vividly
Speaker 4: remember my dad. He was out in the waiting room
Speaker 4: for quite a few hours once they found out that
Speaker 4: the baby was coming, and I remember walking out Tom
Speaker 4: telling them that she was here and just breaking down
Speaker 4: a crying.
Speaker 1: And so these bursts of anger toward Isabella, they weren't
Speaker 1: happening until your son was born, or were they also
Speaker 1: happening periodically before he was born?
Speaker 4: Periodically? I know she's just a toddler, but when she
Speaker 4: knows better, she's sometimes will look at you and smile,
Speaker 4: even though you tell her no, and she will just
Speaker 4: look at you and smile and do it anyway, and
Speaker 4: then she just tries me nuts.
Speaker 2: Toddler's do that because that's how they learned. They test
Speaker 2: the limits all the time to see what's allowed and
Speaker 2: what isn't and it requires a lot of repetition, so
Speaker 2: those limits have to be reinforced over and over again.
Speaker 2: And when she looks at you and smiles, she's almost
Speaker 2: like signaling you about to test the limit here, So
Speaker 2: let's see what you do. Can you give me an example, Jake,
Speaker 2: when you do have an outbust with Isabella? What does
Speaker 2: that look like?
Speaker 4: It's yelling? I get loud, I get very frustrated and
Speaker 4: say what Instead of just saying I need you to
Speaker 4: clean these up? I would just say that out a
Speaker 4: much louder yelling volume. I don't like messes, and when
Speaker 4: there is a big mess, that frustrates me, and I
Speaker 4: will say what the and start cleaning it up? Why
Speaker 4: did you do that? I don't have a sensor, and
Speaker 4: I would say probably what the f? Why did you?
Speaker 4: Why did you do that? And just very angry manner.
Speaker 2: And how does she react when you yell at her
Speaker 2: like that?
Speaker 4: Sometimes she he just gets quiet and sits there. There's
Speaker 4: been other times where she's laughing, which gets me even
Speaker 4: more frustrated. And then there's other times where you could
Speaker 4: definitely tell she feels guilty or upset about it, and
Speaker 4: then she'll start crying and I continue to be mad
Speaker 4: in this situation. And then once the situation has been resolved,
Speaker 4: whether it's cleaning it up or whatever the case is,
Speaker 4: is when I get out of seeing red and take
Speaker 4: a step back and realize she's just a toddler, and
Speaker 4: I will hold her and give her a hug and
Speaker 4: tell her I'm sorry, and then she'll it's okay.
Speaker 1: You have this phrase rupture and repair, and so when
Speaker 1: there's a rupture, whether that's in a relationship between adults
Speaker 1: or between parents and children, it's not just that a
Speaker 1: rupture happened, But then how does it get repaired? And
Speaker 1: it sounds like you attempt to repair it with Isabella,
Speaker 1: But the problem is that it happens frequently enough that
Speaker 1: she might not trust the repair, and she might not
Speaker 1: also be able to really tell you how she feels
Speaker 1: in those moments. So she says it's okay, almost to
Speaker 1: make you feel better, but I'm guessing that it has
Speaker 1: a bigger effect on her and that it's probably not
Speaker 1: so okay with her. And so I'm wondering about when
Speaker 1: this first started happening, and Becca, you saw it and
Speaker 1: you told Jake that you weren't comfortable with it. How
Speaker 1: did those conversations go in the very beginning, and then
Speaker 1: how have they evolved over time?
Speaker 3: So in the beginning, I wouldn't talk to him about
Speaker 3: it in front of Isabella. Sometimes it would be like
Speaker 3: I would hear him yelling, and I would come from
Speaker 3: another room and then help to kind of facilitate the
Speaker 3: repair part. And then at a leader point, I would
Speaker 3: talk to Jake and be like, hey, like that wasn't okay.
Speaker 3: That probably really hurt her, and he would say, you know,
Speaker 3: I know, I'm sorry it happened. I'm gonna work really
Speaker 3: hard and I won't.
Speaker 4: Do it again.
Speaker 1: What did that mean? Work really hard? You mean Jake
Speaker 1: on your own or going to therapy.
Speaker 4: On my own? Try to think before reacting.
Speaker 1: Did you ever get any tools for that from your
Speaker 1: earlier therapy or just maybe some research you did or
Speaker 1: a book you read or anything like that.
Speaker 3: No, you try counting.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I do have a repriver so often just take
Speaker 4: a deep breath and count to maybe ten and trying
Speaker 4: to de escalate.
Speaker 1: Does that help at all?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 4: Sometimes?
Speaker 1: And so when you hear Becca saying this, what is
Speaker 1: it like for you? When Becca brings this up to
Speaker 1: you that she's uncomfortable with the way that you're react
Speaker 1: acting to Isabella frustrating?
Speaker 4: I know I need to change for sure. It's disheartening,
Speaker 4: you know, knowing that I'm not making I guess becka happy,
Speaker 4: and I know the damage it's potentially doing to Isabella.
Speaker 2: What is the damage you think it might be doing
Speaker 2: to Isabella.
Speaker 4: The mental damage she might have later in life. I
Speaker 4: have noticed recently, I feel like, very recently, that she's
Speaker 4: starting to have a little bit of a temper and
Speaker 4: reacting to scenarios the way I would react to scenarios.
Speaker 4: And I have actually told her not to be like
Speaker 4: me in these scenarios, to be more like mom.
Speaker 2: Right, But that doesn't really work when you're modeling for
Speaker 2: her that it's okay to react in anger because here
Speaker 2: I do it frequently. Then you can say, oh, you
Speaker 2: shouldn't do it, But are you actually teaching her right?
Speaker 4: Which And this is something I've just noticed, probably within
Speaker 4: the past two weeks. That was a big eye opener
Speaker 4: for sure.
Speaker 1: What happened in the last two weeks.
Speaker 4: I personally have noticed how she's been reacting to certain scenarios.
Speaker 2: And what does that change for you that you noticing
Speaker 2: that she's imitating you?
Speaker 4: Sad to say, but that's so far nothing?
Speaker 2: Why not?
Speaker 4: I don't have an answer for that. I don't know.
Speaker 1: You butt heads with your father? Did your parents yell
Speaker 1: at you?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 4: The reason my dad and I butt head so much
Speaker 4: is he loves getting under people's skin, Like if he
Speaker 4: knows something is bothering me, he will just dig and
Speaker 4: dig and dig until I explode.
Speaker 1: So you're the one who explodes, but he does, yes, and.
Speaker 4: Then once I explode, then it's made him yelling at
Speaker 4: each other.
Speaker 1: So the anger management that you felt you needed in
Speaker 1: your early twenties when you went to a therapist? What
Speaker 1: precipitated that? What was going on in your life where
Speaker 1: you felt like, I really need to understand this better?
Speaker 4: A previous relationship set of if I didn't do something
Speaker 4: about it and see a therapist, then she was leaving.
Speaker 1: And did you agree that maybe it was problematic what
Speaker 1: was going on? Or did you just go because you
Speaker 1: didn't want to lose her? I just want so you
Speaker 1: didn't think it was really problematic at the time like
Speaker 1: you do now, because now you're saying you do.
Speaker 2: Are you saying that now, Jake? Do you think that
Speaker 2: it's problematic now? Yeah?
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: What's different between now and then? Before you didn't think
Speaker 1: it was problematic, but now you do. What's changed for you?
Speaker 4: The kids? Seeing the way Isabella is reacting to things now,
Speaker 4: it's definitely the kids.
Speaker 1: Does this happen with your son too. I know he's
Speaker 1: five months, but does it happen with him at all?
Speaker 4: Yeah, crying, crying is just just gets under my skin incredibly.
Speaker 4: And Isabella was she very rarely cried. She was just
Speaker 4: always this happy baby. And then Dean, he was just
Speaker 4: constantly crying and it was definitely frustrating.
Speaker 2: It's interesting, Jake, because the two things that you've mentioned
Speaker 2: that really frustrate you are crying and messages, and you
Speaker 2: have a baby and a toddler and a wife with
Speaker 2: a what about a problem? So it's really it's a
Speaker 2: deadly combination. And I'm talking about it, but truly, it
Speaker 2: seems that if those are the sensitivities, you know, there's
Speaker 2: just fertile ground to be frustrated a lot. Now, you
Speaker 2: said that you do take it seriously. Now, you do
Speaker 2: recognize now that it's a problem, and recently so I'll
Speaker 2: give you that. But even in the recent couple of
Speaker 2: weeks where it's occurred to you more, have you thought
Speaker 2: of doing any research, you know, Lorios, if you've read
Speaker 2: any books or read any articles, is that something you've
Speaker 2: thought about acquiring tools? Because part of the problem you
Speaker 2: have is you have no tools. You have the you know, count,
Speaker 2: but that's it. Otherwise it's just strain and hope it
Speaker 2: doesn't come out, which is not a tool. Have you
Speaker 2: thought about looking for tools? Discuss that with Beckap perhaps
Speaker 2: over the past couple of weeks, I have not.
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about what these conversations might look like between
Speaker 1: the two of you, because it sounds like they've come
Speaker 1: up quite a bit. You're nodding, so, yes, okay. Sometimes
Speaker 1: when we have a lot of feelings, we go numb.
Speaker 1: And what I'm hearing with you, Jake is that there's
Speaker 1: almost like something isn't going in because I imagine that
Speaker 1: maybe you go a little bit numb. And people are
Speaker 1: confused about numbness. Often they think, if I go numb,
Speaker 1: I'm not feeling anything. But numbness isn't the absence of feelings.
Speaker 1: Numbness is a sense of being overwhelmed by too many feelings.
Speaker 1: We can't process all the feelings, and we go numb.
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, Becka, from your perspective, what is it like
Speaker 1: when you're trying to talk to Jake about this? And
Speaker 1: in your letter you said you've tried various ways of
Speaker 1: setting boundaries around it, like we should go to therapy,
Speaker 1: or you should go to anger management, or I might
Speaker 1: leave you. So Jake, you're saying you go numb in
Speaker 1: these conversations pretty much, that you don't really have a
Speaker 1: sense of what you're feeling when she's talking about it,
Speaker 1: and Becca, I'm wondering for you, what is it like
Speaker 1: when you're talking to Jake and it seems like maybe
Speaker 1: it's not being received by him.
Speaker 3: Invalidating and really frustrating because I feel like there should
Speaker 3: be an emotional reaction and that there should be some openness,
Speaker 3: and I suspect that he is really motivated deep down
Speaker 3: and is hurt by the fact that he's like lashing
Speaker 3: out and potentially damaging Isabella and our relationship. But when
Speaker 3: I don't get anything out of him except for I'll
Speaker 3: try harder, it hurts. It makes me feel like he
Speaker 3: doesn't care. And then I actually like didn't know about
Speaker 3: the therapy they had gone to before, and it's just
Speaker 3: a little hurtful to hear that, like that person saying
Speaker 3: that she might leave would lead to him being like, Okay,
Speaker 3: I'm going to go get therapy, but me saying it's
Speaker 3: not healthy for our daughter. You need to get therapy
Speaker 3: or we're going to leave so that I can protect her.
Speaker 3: Resulted in like, I'm not going to get therapy. I'm
Speaker 3: just going to try harder.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm looking at your face, Jake, and I
Speaker 1: see so much coming across your face right now. Because
Speaker 1: I was looking at your face, there were these conflicting
Speaker 1: emotions running through you, and they probably lasted a millisecond
Speaker 1: because you don't want to feel them, so you have
Speaker 1: become very skilled at getting rid of them as soon
Speaker 1: as they show up. And on the one hand, I
Speaker 1: could see the pain. I could see the pain of
Speaker 1: I'm hurting these people that I love. I could see
Speaker 1: the pain of I don't want to lose my wife.
Speaker 1: I don't want to damage my daughter. And I imagine
Speaker 1: too that there's a part of you that's hard to acknowledge,
Speaker 1: which might be this fantasy which I don't think you
Speaker 1: actually want to come true. But sometimes we have fantasies
Speaker 1: about these things when we feel really trapped and stuck,
Speaker 1: and maybe it would be a relief, Maybe I would
Speaker 1: get that freedom that I really wanted because now I
Speaker 1: have two kids. And in your letter back you were
Speaker 1: saying it really escalated during your second pregnancy and the
Speaker 1: postpartum Now there's really a lack of freedom with the
Speaker 1: two young ones, and that there's a part of you,
Speaker 1: Jake that doesn't know what to do with this real need,
Speaker 1: and it's a legitimate need to have some kind of freedom,
Speaker 1: especially when this came at a time in your life
Speaker 1: when you weren't expecting to have to give it up.
Speaker 1: And you're nodding, so I can see that that's true too,
Speaker 1: And it's okay to be able to talk about all
Speaker 1: the different ingredients here and not just what you think
Speaker 1: Becca wants to hear, but what the truth of your
Speaker 1: experience is, because I actually think that will help you
Speaker 1: to manage your anger differently. And so I'm wondering if
Speaker 1: we could try a little exercise here right now where
Speaker 1: you guys can talk about this a little bit differently.
Speaker 1: Are you guys willing to try that?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So if you can face each other and
Speaker 1: if you can hold hands with each other, I wonder
Speaker 1: if Becca you can show Jake that you can tolerate
Speaker 1: the truth of his experience, all of it. So, Jake,
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you could tell Becca a little bit
Speaker 1: about the conflict that you're experiencing of on the one hand,
Speaker 1: wanting to be a really good father and a really
Speaker 1: good partner, and on the other hand, feeling really ripped
Speaker 1: off and feeling like sometimes it just feels really unfair,
Speaker 1: and sometimes you need a break, and you don't quite
Speaker 1: know what to do with all of these feelings, and
Speaker 1: you don't even know how to talk to Becca about them.
Speaker 1: Can you share whatever's going on with you and your
Speaker 1: own words with her? And Becca, I just want you
Speaker 1: to breathe through this. You don't need to respond, You
Speaker 1: just need to be present so that you can open
Speaker 1: up a space between you for the truth.
Speaker 4: Like we've discussed, I do have me time ever since
Speaker 4: the new job. I don't ever get any time. I
Speaker 4: love you guys, and we do have a lot of
Speaker 4: fun together. There's definitely times that I definitely want to
Speaker 4: run away, There's no doubt about it. But I will
Speaker 4: always be here. I don't ever want to go away.
Speaker 4: I love you, guys.
Speaker 2: Could you say jink a little bit about how it
Speaker 2: feels in those moments we want to run away?
Speaker 4: Talking about feelings. One thing I don't feeling.
Speaker 1: I want to reframe that for you a little bit,
Speaker 1: because I think that you're not comfortable doing it, but
Speaker 1: I don't know yet whether you like doing it, because
Speaker 1: I have a feeling that once you get comfortable talking
Speaker 1: about your feelings, you will like it very much because
Speaker 1: it will help you to have a place to go
Speaker 1: with them instead of doing what you're doing with them now.
Speaker 1: And Becca, watch out because he might start talking a
Speaker 1: lot about his feelings in the future once he realizes
Speaker 1: how much he likes it.
Speaker 4: The times that I want to just run away, I
Speaker 4: think of the days having fun, what could have been
Speaker 4: without kids, the traveling, the adventures. I feel like my
Speaker 4: time was cut short.
Speaker 3: And it.
Speaker 4: Just wasn't ready to give up the nights out with
Speaker 4: the boys and the trips.
Speaker 2: When Isabella is frustrating you and you have those thoughts
Speaker 2: about but I got rubbed of this. You're juxtaposing feeling
Speaker 2: really free and liberated and fun, but you're juxtaposing that
Speaker 2: with feeling in that moment. What is it trapped? Is
Speaker 2: it suffocated? Is it stressed? Is it sad? I'm just
Speaker 2: giving you different words, but I want you to try
Speaker 2: and use your own words to describe the feeling.
Speaker 4: It's sad. Was the one thing that you said that
Speaker 4: definitely definitely feel sad, sorry for myself, self pity. I
Speaker 4: know I'm being selfish, that's a judgment. But going back
Speaker 4: to the feelings you've talked about feeling sad, I'm associating
Speaker 4: the sadness with grief. That you're grieving this idea of
Speaker 4: this part of your life that you didn't get to
Speaker 4: really complete in the way you wanted to. And that
Speaker 4: sometimes because you aren't able to really talk about the grief,
Speaker 4: when something is right in front of you that reminds
Speaker 4: you of what you lost, that that triggers that big
Speaker 4: reaction in you. Is that what happens for you. I
Speaker 4: don't know what happened when I just said that. I
Speaker 4: was just thinking that I love you well, not you.
Speaker 1: But do you see how you got distracted from the feeling? Yeah, yeah, yes,
Speaker 1: you said sometimes it frustrates you that when you're yelling
Speaker 1: at Isabella she laughs. And when I just made you
Speaker 1: a little bit uncomfortable by asking you to think about
Speaker 1: your feelings, you laughed. So I want you to think
Speaker 1: about that next time you're yelling at Isabella and she laughs.
Speaker 1: It means she's uncomfortable. She's feeling something but wants to
Speaker 1: get rid of it, just like you're doing right now.
Speaker 1: So let's go back for a second to that feeling.
Speaker 1: I imagine that there's some grieving that you haven't done
Speaker 1: around the loss of this version of this time in
Speaker 1: your life. That would look a little different. And when
Speaker 1: Isabella does something, when the baby is crying, that's a
Speaker 1: stark reminder of what you have lost, and so I
Speaker 1: imagine that it brings up those feelings of grief and loss,
Speaker 1: and you get really angry because these are unprocessed feelings
Speaker 1: of grief and loss. So when you said sad, I
Speaker 1: can see that because that's grief. That's the sadness. So
Speaker 1: you're nodding to that. Does that resonate with you?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 2: Yes, Jake. I think part of what blocks you from
Speaker 2: talking to Becca about these feelings about feeling the loss,
Speaker 2: about feeling sad is what you said afterwards, Well, that
Speaker 2: feels selfish. And I'm wondering if you realize that Becca
Speaker 2: must be having some of the same feelings because her
Speaker 2: days of independence were also cut short in that way.
Speaker 2: Has it occurred to you that these might be feelings
Speaker 2: she's having as well to some degree, No, it.
Speaker 1: Did not, and they might not be exactly the same feelings,
Speaker 1: but she probably has her own experience of parenthood where
Speaker 1: it's very challenging, especially if she's still in medical school
Speaker 1: or doing residency or starting out. Becca, can you talk
Speaker 1: to Jake a little bit about the various experiences you've
Speaker 1: had as a new parent.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So, in Isabella I was born, I had this
Speaker 3: idea of kind of the mom. I was going to
Speaker 3: be a super mom, like that I could handle residency
Speaker 3: and I could be this great mom and do both
Speaker 3: things one hundred percent. And it's been tough realizing that,
Speaker 3: like there is a version of myself in residency and
Speaker 3: like at work that I could have been if I
Speaker 3: didn't have kids, and like a level of devotion I
Speaker 3: could have thrown myself in. And at the same time,
Speaker 3: like if I didn't have residency or commitment to like
Speaker 3: this line of work, there's a version of myself that,
Speaker 3: like a mom version of myself I could be for
Speaker 3: Isabella and for Dean, and kind of feeling like I'm
Speaker 3: always falling short in both places. That's been been really tough.
Speaker 1: Jake, what is it like for you to hear that
Speaker 1: she also struggles with imagining these different versions of her
Speaker 1: life if she didn't have kids, how she would perform
Speaker 1: at work, if she didn't have work, how she would
Speaker 1: be as a parent. Did you know that you had
Speaker 1: that in common, these fantasy lives that you think about sometimes, No,
Speaker 1: I didn't know.
Speaker 4: I want you to be happy. So it's definitely very
Speaker 4: sad to hear that you also have I guess this
Speaker 4: conflict or battle of what could be?
Speaker 1: Is it also a little bit of a relief to
Speaker 1: know that both of you, like many new parents, have struggled.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yes, most new parents have moments where they wish
Speaker 2: there was an eject button that they could smick because
Speaker 2: it's just so much and it's not unusual and doesn't
Speaker 2: mean they don't love their kids. It just means it
Speaker 2: can be really overwhelming. And the thing, Jake, is that
Speaker 2: most of the feelings that you're described being are normative.
Speaker 2: There's nothing unusual about them, especially when a pregnancy is unplanned.
Speaker 2: But I think there's a way in which you feel
Speaker 2: that you shouldn't have these feelings, or it's selfish of
Speaker 2: you to have these most natural of thoughts. And so
Speaker 2: I'm glad you say that you feel this relief to
Speaker 2: hear that Becca has her version of those feelings, as
Speaker 2: do most parents, and therein is the benefit of sharing
Speaker 2: your feelings. You get to find out that your partner
Speaker 2: has similar ones and that there's something that actually unites
Speaker 2: you in these feelings rather than divides. You're not that
Speaker 2: I'm saying that, but is that how it feels to you? Yes?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Becca? Can you tell Jake what it was like
Speaker 1: to hear all of that from him earlier?
Speaker 3: Refreshing? So I feel like it's a treat whenever I
Speaker 3: get to hear kind of like that deep of stuff
Speaker 3: from you.
Speaker 1: Did you feel that he was selfish when you heard
Speaker 1: that or what was your impression of his fantasy of
Speaker 1: sometimes wanting to hit the check button as Guy said.
Speaker 3: I didn't think it was selfish. I could like identify
Speaker 3: with it kind of like mirrored like feelings that I've
Speaker 3: had before. And I feel like, you know, Jake would
Speaker 3: be somebody safe that I could talk to that about
Speaker 3: not have to worry about being judged, And I'm glad
Speaker 3: to know that he can say that to me, that
Speaker 3: we're both feeling that sometimes.
Speaker 1: Jake, have you ever shared this kind of feeling with anybody,
Speaker 1: not just about having kids, but something that felt really
Speaker 1: shameful to you, or something that made you feel not
Speaker 1: good about yourself.
Speaker 4: I don't think so.
Speaker 1: So this is a new experience.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, I think part of what might hold you back, Jake,
Speaker 2: is quite quite basic in what it is, And I
Speaker 2: think that is that you have trouble, like many people,
Speaker 2: identifying what you feel, but specifically putting a name to it.
Speaker 2: It was difficult for you to come up with those
Speaker 2: names because it's a mush of feelings. You know you're
Speaker 2: feeling something, but you're feeling it in your chest and
Speaker 2: your throat and your shoulders and your stomach and you
Speaker 2: it's difficult to tell which is which and what is what.
Speaker 2: But the more practice you have naming those feelings, the
Speaker 2: more fluent you get at being able to do that.
Speaker 2: And I think that it's one of the things that's
Speaker 2: been holding you back that you just worry that you
Speaker 2: don't have the words. You might not be able to
Speaker 2: identify exactly what you're feeling, but even if you can,
Speaker 2: it's hard to put words.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you nailed it, not having the words. What you
Speaker 4: just said was perfect, Becca.
Speaker 2: How confident do you feel with your ability to name
Speaker 2: your feelings, identify them, speak about them, label them.
Speaker 3: I feel very comfortable. I know some people for kids,
Speaker 3: they want them to be like very smart, so they'll
Speaker 3: work with them on like math and letters and stuff.
Speaker 3: But for me, it's like identifying emotions. So with Isabella,
Speaker 3: like she can tell you why she's feeling how she's feeling.
Speaker 1: So what does Isabella say after these incidents happen where
Speaker 1: Jake is angry with her? Does she talk to you
Speaker 1: Becca or does she talk to you Jake about what
Speaker 1: she feels? Does she have the vocabulary to do that?
Speaker 1: I would say yes, what does she actually say?
Speaker 4: She knows when I'm upset with work, and she will
Speaker 4: come over and actually tell me how I'm feeling. Right, See,
Speaker 4: you're up set, daddy, maybe a hug will make you
Speaker 4: feel better, and she'll give me a hug.
Speaker 1: And on the one hand, that's very cute because she's little,
Speaker 1: and it also shows empathy. But it's also possible that
Speaker 1: she does that because she knows that when Daddy is upset,
Speaker 1: Daddy can get really mad. Yeah, and so I want
Speaker 1: you to see both sides of that. That she may
Speaker 1: feel like she needs to regulate you so that you
Speaker 1: don't lash out at her makes sense, And so I'm
Speaker 1: wondering maybe with beccasins Becca, you say you're a little
Speaker 1: bit more fluent with feelings. Does she ever say to you,
Speaker 1: I was scared of daddy, or I'm really mad at daddy,
Speaker 1: or I was really sad? Does she ever talk about
Speaker 1: her experience of being yelled at with you?
Speaker 3: Yeah, all three of those. She usually doesn't spend a
Speaker 3: lot of time talking about it, but she'll like, I
Speaker 3: was sad when Daddy yelled at me, and I don't
Speaker 3: know why he yelled at me. And we'll kind of
Speaker 3: talk about, oh, this is where Daddy is coming from,
Speaker 3: and this is where you were coming from, and you know,
Speaker 3: daddy's taking some space right now because that's how he
Speaker 3: calms down to feel better or what would feel good
Speaker 3: for you. And then I'll end up telling Jake how
Speaker 3: Isabella is feeling, and then he'll go and do the
Speaker 3: like repair work you mentioned earlier.
Speaker 1: Do you ever say to Isabella that even though Daddy
Speaker 1: was upset, that it's not okay that he yelled at her.
Speaker 3: I do, but I don't know how much of that
Speaker 3: gets through. And I'll tell her like, she's not responsible
Speaker 3: for Daddy getting mad, and but she's still a good
Speaker 3: kid and everybody gets mad.
Speaker 1: Sometimes there's another way to deal with her anger when
Speaker 1: we get mad, that we can use a different voice
Speaker 1: to express what we're upset about.
Speaker 3: I'll have to keep that in my toolbox to say
Speaker 3: next time.
Speaker 1: Jake, Now that you're seeing how much of an impact
Speaker 1: this has on Isabella, not only now, but might have
Speaker 1: on her as she grows up, I'm wondering when Becka says, hey,
Speaker 1: we could go to therapy, or you could do some
Speaker 1: anger management, or even I don't know if we can
Speaker 1: stay if this is going to go on, does like
Speaker 1: all three things have happened? What do you think is
Speaker 1: keeping you from doing something that might be helpful, not
Speaker 1: just for the other people, but mostly for you?
Speaker 4: Lazy? If I want to put in the work.
Speaker 1: I don't think people are really lazy. I think that
Speaker 1: people avoid things and then they look like they're lazy.
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna say it a different way. Why are
Speaker 1: you avoiding dealing with this given how high the stakes
Speaker 1: are and how.
Speaker 2: Long you've been dealing with it.
Speaker 4: I keep telling myself that I can fix it myself,
Speaker 4: but you know that.
Speaker 1: That's not been the case. So that's again a way
Speaker 1: that we avoid as we lie to ourselves. It's really
Speaker 1: easy to tell ourselves what we want to hear, so
Speaker 1: we can avoid doing the thing that we need to do.
Speaker 1: I have a theory about why you might be avoiding this,
Speaker 1: and that's because of that conflict we were talking about
Speaker 1: earlier between the part of you that feels ripped off
Speaker 1: and the part of you that wants to be a
Speaker 1: part of this family. And I think that there's a
Speaker 1: part of you that isn't even in your awareness, that
Speaker 1: feels like if I go deal with this, then I
Speaker 1: am giving in to this life, and I don't get
Speaker 1: to hold on to any part of that other life life.
Speaker 1: At least when I'm acting out, that part of my
Speaker 1: life is alive, and I want to suggest that there
Speaker 1: might be other ways to keep that other part of
Speaker 1: your life alive and also do things in your life
Speaker 1: that might give you more balance.
Speaker 4: I know within the next few months things are going
Speaker 4: to get significantly better. We get to move back home
Speaker 4: with all of our friends and family. Where we are
Speaker 4: now we have no support systems. We'll have grandparents only
Speaker 4: fifteen minutes away instead of two hours away, friends only
Speaker 4: five ten minutes away instead two hours away. And I
Speaker 4: already know the job I'm now. I am resigning from
Speaker 4: this position because it's just not healthy having our friends
Speaker 4: and family and going back to the job that I
Speaker 4: enjoyed doing a lot of that will change.
Speaker 2: It's definitely will And being without a support system is
Speaker 2: specially difficult when you have two young kids and a newborn.
Speaker 2: But Jake, I wanted to offer you another theory about
Speaker 2: why you might not have sort help.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 2: Number One, you did in the past, and it doesn't
Speaker 2: sound like you walked out with a lot of tools
Speaker 2: from that experience. And a lot of times when people
Speaker 2: and especially men have issues with anger management, they think
Speaker 2: that they just need to learn to hold it in better,
Speaker 2: that they just need to get that better cork that
Speaker 2: will stuff it in and then it won't come out.
Speaker 2: And right now you don't know how to get a
Speaker 2: better cork. It's very difficult to understand a nonlinear relationship
Speaker 2: between talking about your feelings of frustration, loss of the bachelorhood.
Speaker 2: How is that related to you know, me having the
Speaker 2: temper or keeping it in about the water bottles or
Speaker 2: the messes you know? And I think that part of
Speaker 2: what makes you hesitate is you just don't understand or
Speaker 2: know what possible tools can people give me that will
Speaker 2: actually help me other than me just needing the willpower
Speaker 2: to not explode. And I'm wondering if that's something that's
Speaker 2: going on with you that you just don't quite know
Speaker 2: what that help could even be, or that doesn't quite
Speaker 2: make sense to you, And so it feels it will
Speaker 2: just come down to me needing to not and I'm
Speaker 2: trying to not anyway, So what else can I do?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I can definitely relate with that, especially the core scenario.
Speaker 4: That's how I feel like I just need to try
Speaker 4: harder to suppress the anger back up.
Speaker 1: You've talked about thinking you don't know how long you
Speaker 1: can keep going in this situation. Where are you with
Speaker 1: that right now?
Speaker 3: I feel conflicted because I want to believe that, like
Speaker 3: once we move back and there's more balance, that everything
Speaker 3: will get better. But I feel this like ambivalence because
Speaker 3: for me, I want to stay with Jake and I
Speaker 3: want us to be a family and be together forever,
Speaker 3: and I'm happy, But then as a mother seeing the
Speaker 3: impact that it has on Isabella, it makes me feel
Speaker 3: like to do what's best for her in the times
Speaker 3: when the anger does get pretty bad that it'd be
Speaker 3: better if, like Jake was just like a part time parent.
Speaker 3: And I feel like those two parts of me fight
Speaker 3: a lot.
Speaker 1: Can I ask you, Jake, if we flashed forward several decades,
Speaker 1: Isabella and Dean are really struggling in their lives. They're
Speaker 1: struggling with how they feel about themselves. They're struggling and
Speaker 1: then their friendships and they're romantic relationships. They may be
Speaker 1: numbing themselves with certain things like drugs or alcohol. Maybe
Speaker 1: they are able to tell you you hurt us constantly
Speaker 1: when we were growing up. How would you feel about
Speaker 1: your life choices several decades on that were the case.
Speaker 4: Horrible?
Speaker 1: Do you understand that that's the potential path you're on?
Speaker 4: I do now.
Speaker 2: So, Becca and Jake, we have some advice for you,
Speaker 2: and it's in several parts. Part one is this. There's
Speaker 2: this wonderful tool that we love called the feelings Wheel
Speaker 2: or the emotions Wheel, and it's just that it's a
Speaker 2: wheel with a lot of different emotions on it. We'd
Speaker 2: like you to print one out. They're very easy to
Speaker 2: find online, and we'd like you every evening when you
Speaker 2: have literally five minutes each of you take turns. Jake
Speaker 2: would like you to start and just talk about your
Speaker 2: day and name at least five feelings that correspond to
Speaker 2: your narrative. You don't have to know them ahead of time.
Speaker 2: You just look at the wheel when you know what
Speaker 2: you're feeling inside but you can't articulate it. You look
Speaker 2: at the wheel, and just when I gave you multiple shows,
Speaker 2: you said, yes, this one, Yes, this one, that's how
Speaker 2: the wheel functions. You look at it and go, oh, right,
Speaker 2: it's this. But would like you every day to have
Speaker 2: five minutes where each of you just talk about each
Speaker 2: other's days, using and naming your feelings. So that's the
Speaker 2: first one. The second assignment we gaveing you is, Jake,
Speaker 2: we want you to google two articles about the effects
Speaker 2: of yelling at your kids and find it from reputable
Speaker 2: sources the Mayo Clinic, WebMD, and we'd like you to
Speaker 2: read just a couple of short articles and then tell
Speaker 2: Becca what you've learned from them, so that you can
Speaker 2: have a conversation and have discussions about the impact of
Speaker 2: yelling at your kids. So that's not something you're ignoring
Speaker 2: that you're really talking about as you're trying to control
Speaker 2: the anger. What is the impact of yelling at your
Speaker 2: kids at young ages, and we think.
Speaker 1: That that'll give you a good foundation for the next exercise,
Speaker 1: which is that Becca, we would like you to write
Speaker 1: a letter, as if it's decades in the future, from
Speaker 1: Isabella and Dean to Jake about what their lives are
Speaker 1: like and what the effect of this yelling has had
Speaker 1: on them if it continues the way that it does,
Speaker 1: and we're going to imagine for this letter that it did.
Speaker 1: And please don't try to protect his feelings, because Isabella
Speaker 1: and Dean will not try to protect his feelings. Kids
Speaker 1: who are yelled at will be very clear, usually later
Speaker 1: in life, about the impact that it had on them.
Speaker 1: And Jake, what we would like you to do is
Speaker 1: write a letter back when you get that letter to
Speaker 1: your children who are now adults, about what you wish
Speaker 1: you had done differently, if indeed you do, and really
Speaker 1: be open and honest, just as open and honest as
Speaker 1: you were with Becca in the conversation today about other feelings.
Speaker 1: We want you to be really open and honest with
Speaker 1: them about how it feels to you, knowing that this
Speaker 1: is how they feel as adults. Given that the yelling
Speaker 1: didn't stop and the good news about this is it's
Speaker 1: not actually happening in the future. You have a chance
Speaker 1: to do things differently should you so choose. And the
Speaker 1: last part is that we would like you to learn
Speaker 1: a little bit more about anger management because it sounds
Speaker 1: like you don't really have tools that have worked for you.
Speaker 1: So we would like you to join an anger management group.
Speaker 1: And I know that your time is limited, so there
Speaker 1: are also lots of online options where you can just
Speaker 1: zoom into the group, and we would like you to
Speaker 1: give it a try to see what it's like to
Speaker 1: hear other people talk about their experiences, because you're definitely
Speaker 1: not alone in this. Lots of people had modeling where
Speaker 1: they didn't know there was another way to manage their feelings,
Speaker 1: and often they couldn't I identify their feelings, which is
Speaker 1: something that you noticed in our conversation today that sometimes,
Speaker 1: like I said, you just don't know what the words
Speaker 1: are for the feelings. And the one thing that's really
Speaker 1: easy to access is anger. So if we can get
Speaker 1: underneath that, you might be able to have some tools
Speaker 1: that will be helpful for you and maybe that'll help
Speaker 1: you take away some of the shame around it, realize
Speaker 1: you're not alone, and then get some really good information
Speaker 1: about what might be helpful.
Speaker 4: Okay, thank you, Marian guy.
Speaker 1: Some couples can't do what they did, which is talk
Speaker 1: about something that's really difficult and then still stay connected.
Speaker 1: And they were still holding hands even when some of
Speaker 1: the content was difficult to hear. They stay present for
Speaker 1: each other. And I think the challenge for Jake is
Speaker 1: really the dissociating that he does. He knows intellectually that
Speaker 1: what he's doing is damaging to his children, and then
Speaker 1: he comes up with all kinds of reasons why it's
Speaker 1: not a priority for him. And I think that when
Speaker 1: he gets more in touch with his feelings, and I
Speaker 1: think really not being able to avoid what the future
Speaker 1: might look like. Because when I brought that up at
Speaker 1: the end, he finally said, yeah, I get it. We
Speaker 1: don't know if he really gets it, but it was
Speaker 1: the first time that he acknowledged that.
Speaker 4: He does right.
Speaker 2: And I also agree that he kind of knows intellectually
Speaker 2: that it's a problem. But that's why we gave in
Speaker 2: that research assignment, because he really needs to be clear
Speaker 2: that it is a problem. It's not a maybe, it's
Speaker 2: not a oh, you know, I was okay somehow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not just the tone when we talk to
Speaker 1: our kids, is the content as well, and he was
Speaker 1: saying that he says what the f to her, and
Speaker 1: as parents we all have times when it wasn't our
Speaker 1: finest parenting moment. When it's consistent in the way that
Speaker 1: they're describing, it's really important for him to understand the
Speaker 1: effect that it's going to have on his children, and
Speaker 1: that it is having on his children.
Speaker 2: You're listening to dea therapists. We'll be back after a
Speaker 2: short break.
Speaker 1: So, guy, we heard from Becca and Jake, and I'll
Speaker 1: be curious to hear how that went for them.
Speaker 3: Hey Louri, Hey guy, this is Beca and Jake.
Speaker 4: Hello.
Speaker 3: We're getting back in touch. Just to update you on
Speaker 3: the assignments you gave us last week for.
Speaker 4: The feelings chart. We went over that every night and
Speaker 4: I feel like it sparked a lot of good conversations.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like it added some depth to our conversations,
Speaker 3: and I did notice that Jake just kind of in
Speaker 3: normal day to day conversations talked more about feelings, especially
Speaker 3: other than just anger and frustration. So I can already
Speaker 3: see that paying off for the second one, which was
Speaker 3: looking up the effects of yelling, but I feel like
Speaker 3: Jake it was difficult for him to confront that. I
Speaker 3: felt like he avoided it most of the week and
Speaker 3: it lead to some nagging on my end. He handed
Speaker 3: up finding a really good series on YouTube that talked
Speaker 3: about it, and I think it really piqued his interest
Speaker 3: to keep looking for more. So he suggested doing this
Speaker 3: five day stop Yelling at your Kid's parenting challenge. So
Speaker 3: we're starting that feeling optimistic about that. For the next assignment,
Speaker 3: where I was writing the letter from Isabella and Dean's perspective,
Speaker 3: it was challenging because there were so many different effects
Speaker 3: that the yelling can have, so kind of encompassing everything
Speaker 3: in that was a little difficult. So I did send
Speaker 3: that over to Jake, and I think it was tough
Speaker 3: for him to read and might not have been the
Speaker 3: most impactful, Like I wonder if he needs something a
Speaker 3: little more concrete and tangible.
Speaker 4: It was difficult for me to put myself in the
Speaker 4: headspace of pretending to be in the future and it
Speaker 4: didn't really resonate for me. As for the anger management classes,
Speaker 4: I'm not quite ready to jump into that yet, and
Speaker 4: I know I need to find coping mechanisms, which led
Speaker 4: me to a YouTube channel, so I'm going to start
Speaker 4: there and see how that works for me.
Speaker 3: Overall, this has created some moments of conflict and a
Speaker 3: relationship that weren't there before, but I feel like it's
Speaker 3: definitely an area where we can grow, and the couple
Speaker 3: of things that have happened since then, it's really helped
Speaker 3: me be more empathetic to see where Jake's coming from
Speaker 3: and where his mind might be at because I have
Speaker 3: a better idea now. One of the quotes that really
Speaker 3: stuck out to us in the parenting resource we were
Speaker 3: looking at was by Maya Angelo, and it goes, do
Speaker 3: the best you can until you know better, than when
Speaker 3: you know better, do better. So I feel like at
Speaker 3: this point we're just getting to a place where we're
Speaker 3: building our knowledge and hopefully that'll lead to doing better
Speaker 3: in the future. Thank you again for all of your
Speaker 3: help and for taking the time to work with us
Speaker 3: on this.
Speaker 4: Thank you bye well.
Speaker 2: That reinforced a feeling I had during the session that
Speaker 2: Jake was really starting from square one when it came
Speaker 2: to this understanding of how yelling at the kids can
Speaker 2: impact them, how his being in touch with his own
Speaker 2: emotions or being able to express them or not is
Speaker 2: impacting him. He really didn't see that connection at all,
Speaker 2: and now he's odd thing to create some kind of
Speaker 2: connective tissue in his mind between these things, primarily by
Speaker 2: using the feelings shot. But I am a little disappointed
Speaker 2: that he didn't take more ownership of the anger and
Speaker 2: take more ownership of some of these tasks and really
Speaker 2: dive in.
Speaker 1: I think when we do these sessions, we want to
Speaker 1: hold the hope for their growth, and at the same
Speaker 1: time it can be disappointing. And I think in this case,
Speaker 1: when other people are affected, like children, it's really hard
Speaker 1: to have patience for the change to happen because you
Speaker 1: know that as this is going on, this is really
Speaker 1: affecting the children. And I think Becca is perhaps in
Speaker 1: a little bit of denial too, because she said this
Speaker 1: week brought up some conflict between them that she didn't
Speaker 1: know was there, and yet it seemed like it had
Speaker 1: been there or she wouldn't have written that letter to us.
Speaker 1: And I noticed too that she did most of the
Speaker 1: talking for Jake, and so it seemed like she was
Speaker 1: sort of driving this and hoping that something would change,
Speaker 1: but it's really going to have to come from a
Speaker 1: place of Jake wanting to change. And there's something going
Speaker 1: on with Jake where he's sort of compartmentalizing things where
Speaker 1: he said I couldn't really get into the space of
Speaker 1: that letter from the future. He's always got a reason
Speaker 1: that something isn't going to work in terms of helping
Speaker 1: him to grow and change in this area. And I
Speaker 1: noticed too that they sometimes laugh through this, and I
Speaker 1: know it's uncomfortable laughter, but it feels like something is
Speaker 1: going to need to happen, not just with Jake but
Speaker 1: also with Becca where they're really going to have to
Speaker 1: have a reckoning around this behavior has to stop and
Speaker 1: what are we going to do because I don't think
Speaker 1: that they're really acting with the urgency that this deserves.
Speaker 2: I agree, But I also think, because I said that
Speaker 2: he's starting from such an early point that if he
Speaker 2: woms up to it, if he gets interested in these
Speaker 2: YouTube videos that he's watching, that a curiosity can build
Speaker 2: that might get him there, But that will depend on
Speaker 2: him doing it independently and really owning it at some point,
Speaker 2: rather than Becca just pushing him.
Speaker 1: And I think the other pieces that when we're seeing
Speaker 1: a couple, it's generally two people have an issue, So
Speaker 1: it might look like one person has an issue, but
Speaker 1: somebody else is colluding with the issue, and here it's Becca.
Speaker 1: Becca really is afraid to take a stand, and while
Speaker 1: it's important that she have empathy for whatever he might
Speaker 1: be dealing with, she's not setting boundaries. And I think
Speaker 1: that it's really important for Becca to look into herself. Becca,
Speaker 1: if you're listening, to think about what boundaries you want
Speaker 1: to set for yourself, because it takes two to work
Speaker 1: on a problem like this.
Speaker 2: Next week we're going to check in with Nicole from
Speaker 2: season two to hear how she's doing.
Speaker 3: Later, she was basically saying, I can't be with him anymore.
Speaker 3: I don't even like him anymore. I don't think i'm
Speaker 3: in love with him. I don't even want to have
Speaker 3: sex with them anymore.
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Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us.
Speaker 2: Email us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
Speaker 2: by Josh Fisher. Additional editing support by Helena Rosen, John
Speaker 2: Washington and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily
Speaker 2: Gutierrez and Silver Lifton. And special thanks to our podcast
Speaker 2: Fairy Godmother Katie Curic. You can't wait to see you
Speaker 2: at our next session. Deo Therapist is a production of
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Speaker 4: Fish Food