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Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

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Speaker 1: column for the Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a real session where

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Speaker 1: we help people confront their biggest problems and then give

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Speaker 1: them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,

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Speaker 2: a woman who loves her husband worries about his anger

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Speaker 2: toward their young children and considers whether she should leave

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Speaker 2: him to protect them.

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Speaker 3: It's not healthy for our daughter. You need to get

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Speaker 3: therapy or we're going to leave so that I can

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Speaker 3: protect her first.

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Speaker 2: A quick note Deo Therapists is for informational purposes only,

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Speaker 2: does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not

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Speaker 2: a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 2: The advice of your physician, mental health professional, or other

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Speaker 2: qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding

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Speaker 2: a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter, you

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Speaker 2: are agreeing to let ihelp media use it in pot

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Speaker 2: or in full, and we may edit it for length

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Speaker 2: and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear, all names have

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Speaker 2: been changed for the privacy of our guests.

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Speaker 3: Hey Laurie, Hey Guy.

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Speaker 2: So what do we have in our mailbooks today?

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Speaker 1: So today we have a letter from a woman who's

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Speaker 1: having some difficulty in her relationship, and it goes like this,

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Speaker 1: Dear Laurie and Guy, I'm in a really difficult position

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Speaker 1: in a relationship that started off five years ago as

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Speaker 1: a spontaneous rulw'in in romance and has only mildly dampened

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Speaker 1: with time and two young children, a three year old

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Speaker 1: daughter and a five month old son. I am still

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Speaker 1: in love with my boyfriend Jake and enjoy spending time

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Speaker 1: together and as a family. The problem is that during

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Speaker 1: my second pregnancy and postpartum, his parenting style towards our

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Speaker 1: old has changed, and he is quick to lash out

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Speaker 1: at her verbally and emotionally. He is intolerant of her age,

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Speaker 1: typical boundary testing and tantrums, and I can see the

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Speaker 1: harm done by the way he handles this. Playing referee

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Speaker 1: and mediator between what feels like two toddlers is exhausting,

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Speaker 1: especially while caring for an infant. It's like I don't

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Speaker 1: have a partner to help share the load. His nasty

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Speaker 1: demeanor towards our daughter has made me think more than

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Speaker 1: once that I should leave him, But paradoxically, I feel

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Speaker 1: this will end up with him having more one on

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Speaker 1: one time due to a custody agreement where I will

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Speaker 1: be unable to do damage control and intervene. There's no abuse,

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Speaker 1: and I recognize the value of having time with their dad,

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Speaker 1: so sole custody doesn't seem realistic or healthiest. I've approached

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Speaker 1: Jake about couples counseling, him, getting anger management counseling, and

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Speaker 1: even let him know I was considering leaving. These resulted

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Speaker 1: in tears on his end and promises to try to

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Speaker 1: get better, but nothing is changed. I feel paralyzed, and

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure what arrangement would be best for the kids.

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Speaker 1: I also wonder if breaking up would be healthiest for me,

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Speaker 1: because if I'm worrying about the kids the entire time

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Speaker 1: they're with him, maybe it wouldn't be I would greatly

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Speaker 1: appreciate any help figuring this out. Sincerely, Becca.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting because Becka says that there's no abuse,

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Speaker 2: but lashing out at children verbally is a form of

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Speaker 2: emotional abuse, so certainly can be when it's harsh and

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Speaker 2: it goes on over time. So I'm really glad that

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Speaker 2: Jake is actually joining us today because it sounds like

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Speaker 2: something we really need to talk to both parents about

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Speaker 2: to get an understanding of what's going on and why

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Speaker 2: and what can change there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, emotional violence is abuse, and it has long

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Speaker 1: lasting effects and it can be very traumatic, especially when

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Speaker 1: it's ongoing. And when it's ongoing, we call that complex

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Speaker 1: trauma because it's not one event, it's multiple events happening

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Speaker 1: all the time. And it sounds like Jake realizes that

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Speaker 1: something needs to change, but he's having trouble doing the changing.

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Speaker 1: And that's why I think it's important that we're both

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Speaker 1: of them on.

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Speaker 2: Every day. We see in our offices people who've had

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Speaker 2: an experience in childhood in which their parents would yell

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Speaker 2: at them or speak to them very very harshly, and

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Speaker 2: they're very damaged by that. So we really have to

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Speaker 2: be very clear that how parents speak to their children

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Speaker 2: does have a big impact. It doesn't require physical abuse

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Speaker 2: to leave a scar. Let's talk to them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, let's do that.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back after a short break.

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Speaker 2: I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is

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Speaker 2: Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: So, Hi Becka, Hi Jake.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for coming on the show.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for having us.

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Speaker 1: So we're glad both of you are here because this

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Speaker 1: is an experience that is going on between the two

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Speaker 1: of you, and I think before we get to the

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Speaker 1: problem that you wrote in about beck with your daughter,

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Speaker 1: we wanted to understand a little bit more about earlier

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Speaker 1: in your relationship and how you decided to have kids.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like you said it was a whirlwind. Everything

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Speaker 1: happened very quickly. And since we heard from you already, Becca, Jake,

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Speaker 1: why don't you tell us a little bit about your

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Speaker 1: experience of early in the relationship and then the first

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Speaker 1: pregnancy and first experience of being a parent.

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Speaker 4: So none of it was planned. Actually, Becca called me

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Speaker 4: and sprung the news on me that she found out

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Speaker 4: she was pregnant. So that was a very big shock,

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Speaker 4: came completely out of left field.

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Speaker 1: When you say it was a shock. Was it a

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Speaker 1: good shock, a scary shock? What kind of shock?

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Speaker 4: Scary? For sure? I didn't really think I was going

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Speaker 4: to possibly even have her have kids. It was something

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Speaker 4: that wasn't really thought about that much. I was all

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Speaker 4: about having fun cars, motorcycles, friends. Never really gave I

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Speaker 4: guess fatherhood a serious thought.

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Speaker 1: How old were you at the time.

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Speaker 3: I was twenty five when we met, so you would

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Speaker 3: have been twenty nine.

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Speaker 4: Twenty nine, twenty nine.

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Speaker 2: Jake, How did you come to terms then? Given this

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Speaker 2: with such a shock, you weren't even thinking you might

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Speaker 2: have kids. Now you find out you have one on

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Speaker 2: the way. Tell us how you adapted to that. What

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Speaker 2: was the process for you?

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Speaker 4: I don't really know what the process was. Just kind

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Speaker 4: of went with the flow. It was definitely scary the

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Speaker 4: entire time, you know, going from possibly never having kids

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Speaker 4: still all of a sudden, within the next nine months

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Speaker 4: or so, I'm going to have a little, tiny, little baby.

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Speaker 1: How long had you known each other at that point

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Speaker 1: you or nine months? So, given how new the relationship was,

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Speaker 1: had the two of you talked about having a future

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Speaker 1: together or was that not even on the table at

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Speaker 1: that point in the relationship.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we definitely had the conversation of having a future together.

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Speaker 4: Becca's lease where she was living was coming to an end,

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Speaker 4: and so was mine, who were starting to discuss getting

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Speaker 4: an apartment together. I don't recall if that was before

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Speaker 4: after finding out about Isabella, but I did know going

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Speaker 4: into her line of work that we would potentially have

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Speaker 4: to be relocated at some point, and I was on

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Speaker 4: board from the beginning.

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Speaker 1: Jake, it sounds like you really didn't think about a

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Speaker 1: future with kids. Becca. Did you think about a future

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Speaker 1: with kids, and if so, did Jake know that you

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Speaker 1: thought about a future with kids.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I actually initially had the thought that I would

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Speaker 3: have like four or five kids someday. When Jake and

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Speaker 3: I met, it was, as I kind of mentioned, kind

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Speaker 3: of like a whirlwind because we spent like pretty much

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Speaker 3: every day together for the first six months when on

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Speaker 3: all these adventures had a ton of fun. The idea

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Speaker 3: of having kids eventually like kind of came up in

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Speaker 3: a lighthearted way. Like we were looking over text messages

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Speaker 3: the other day and one was like, Uh, he'd message

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Speaker 3: me like, Oh, if we do have kids, they would

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Speaker 3: be Gerber babies. They'd be so cute. But we never

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Speaker 3: had like a serious conversation about it. And I think,

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Speaker 3: like from a relationship perspective, I think the first or

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Speaker 3: the second night we met, I told him that I

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Speaker 3: was in medical school at the time, and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 3: you know, in a few months when I match, I

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Speaker 3: have no control over where I go, so I don't

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Speaker 3: know if we should get into anything. And he was like, oh,

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Speaker 3: I'll follow you wherever you go. So I think there

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Speaker 3: was like a pretty intense connection early on.

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Speaker 1: So when you texted Becca about having Gerber babies together,

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Speaker 1: was there a part of you that thought maybe you

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Speaker 1: did want kids.

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Speaker 4: I think if I was going to have them, it

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Speaker 4: would have been later on. Like I said earlier, I

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Speaker 4: was still having a lot of fun at the time.

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Speaker 4: I was living with a couple of my good friends,

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Speaker 4: working Monday through Friday and Surrey and Sunday's, having a blast,

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Speaker 4: going on guy trips here and there, and seriously thinking

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Speaker 4: about settling down with a family and children was definitely

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Speaker 4: way in the back of my mind.

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Speaker 2: Jake, So tell me about the discussion between the two

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Speaker 2: of you and you get that phone call, since you

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Speaker 2: were so blindsided by it, what was the discussion like

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Speaker 2: between the two of you about the fact that this

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Speaker 2: is happening and how you felt about it.

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Speaker 4: It was scary, for sure, getting that information. I didn't

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Speaker 4: know the first thing about kids. I didn't have any

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Speaker 4: brothers or sisters. I was an only child. The closest

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Speaker 4: thing to being around a baby was my cousin's And

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Speaker 4: there's a lot to learn.

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Speaker 2: So Becca, tell us what happened between the two of you.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't something that we thought that deeply about because

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Speaker 3: I was on birth control, so I didn't really think

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Speaker 3: it was a possibility, and I was very faithful. I

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Speaker 3: had an alarm in my phone. Was not planning on

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Speaker 3: getting pregnant. So when I started having symptoms, I was

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Speaker 3: a and I was like, okay, let me just take

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Speaker 3: a test just to put my mind at ease. And

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Speaker 3: when it was positive, I know, I started crying. I

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Speaker 3: called my best friend and I was like, I don't

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Speaker 3: really know what to do. Should I tell Jake now

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Speaker 3: or should I wait until he comes to visit next weekend.

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Speaker 3: She had said, you know, if it was me, I'd

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Speaker 3: probably want to know as soon as possible. So I

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Speaker 3: called him and he was definitely really shocked by the news.

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Speaker 3: He's normally a very talkative person, and it was pretty silent,

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Speaker 3: but he said like, Okay, I just need a little

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Speaker 3: bit of time to think about this, but whatever you

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Speaker 3: want to do, And over the next couple weeks when

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Speaker 3: we talked, it just seemed like he was very much like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: ball's in your court, Becca, whatever you want to do,

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Speaker 3: I'm behind you one hundred percent. So I thought about

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Speaker 3: it and I decided, you know, I did want to

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Speaker 3: have multiple kids, and it might not be the most

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Speaker 3: ideal circumstance, but I really felt like I had a

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Speaker 3: great connection with Jake and could see a future together.

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Speaker 3: So we talked and he was okay with us kind

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Speaker 3: of moving forward deciding to keep the baby.

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Speaker 1: Did you understand how Jake felt or was the messaging

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Speaker 1: you were getting just whatever you decide, I'm here. But

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Speaker 1: did you understand more of all of the ambivalence and

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Speaker 1: terror that he was experiencing.

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Speaker 3: I don't think so. I don't think I knew that

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Speaker 3: he was scared. I thought there might be like some

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Speaker 3: remorse over like the loss of the life that he

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Speaker 3: was getting to live. I got definitely the remorse for

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Speaker 3: that part of his life, but I didn't know that

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Speaker 3: he was scared until today, Actually.

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Speaker 1: Jake, why didn't you share that with her?

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Speaker 4: And she had a lot on her plate as it

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Speaker 4: was going through med school, and I guess it was

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Speaker 4: my burden to carry to deal with Definitely not one too.

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Speaker 4: I guess share my feelings and put my feelings out there.

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Speaker 4: Quite often I kind of bury them and just deal

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Speaker 4: with it.

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Speaker 2: Is it still something that you feel hesitant to share

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Speaker 2: when you're having challenging feelings? Do you still hesitate to

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Speaker 2: share them with Becker? Even now.

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Speaker 4: On occasion? I just I guess the word is suck

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Speaker 4: it up and deal with it would be the best

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Speaker 4: way to describe what Typically.

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Speaker 2: So it's a decision and it's a philosophy that you

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Speaker 2: have that one shouldn't share. It's better for you to

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Speaker 2: not let her know how you're feeling about things.

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Speaker 4: I mean certain things. If it's a big enough issue,

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Speaker 4: yes I would share. But if it's something that's going

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Speaker 4: to blow over, or it's it's only a small thing,

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Speaker 4: then I'll just deal with it.

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Speaker 2: So the question is whether it indeed blows over or

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Speaker 2: whether over time these feelings accumulate and then they come

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Speaker 2: out in other ways.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there's definitely times where I blow up and it

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Speaker 4: comes out in anger. For sure. It's usually work related.

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Speaker 4: The stresses from work definitely add up. I think I

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Speaker 4: let my feelings no pretty well about work.

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Speaker 1: You let them be known because you share them with BECO,

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Speaker 1: or because you blow up and then it becomes apparent

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Speaker 1: that something's bothering you.

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Speaker 4: I'd say probably a little bit of both.

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Speaker 1: Jake, I'm curious about this idea that you have that

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Speaker 1: it's a burden to share your feelings with someone else

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Speaker 1: and that it's better if they just kind of blow over.

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Speaker 1: Was that something you learned earlier on in life.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, my family isn't. Definitely not some a family that

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Speaker 4: I guess shares their feelings all that often. Talking about

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Speaker 4: our feelings was definitely not something that ever happened.

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Speaker 2: Do you see the connection between not expressing your feelings

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Speaker 2: unless it's a big deal. Do you see the connection

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Speaker 2: between keeping all of those things in and the temper

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Speaker 2: and then blowing up and having a short fuse.

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Speaker 4: I've always had a temper. I saw therapists quite a

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Speaker 4: few years ago for my anger, and in that.

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Speaker 2: Work, was it suggested that part of the internal pressure

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Speaker 2: you might feel that promotes. The temper might be related

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Speaker 2: to the fact that you don't have this release valve

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Speaker 2: because you keep things in unless they're really big.

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Speaker 4: It's possible during therapy. The big thing that ended up

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Speaker 4: changing was me moving out. At the time, I was

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Speaker 4: still living at my parents' house, me and my dad

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Speaker 4: butt heads quite a bit, and moving out to get

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Speaker 4: out of that toxic I guess environment and being out

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Speaker 4: with my friends for the first time made a big difference,

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Speaker 4: a very big difference.

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Speaker 2: But it was that that made the difference, not that

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Speaker 2: you learned to regulate those feelings a little better.

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Speaker 1: Correct Becca, how much did you know about what Jake's

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Speaker 1: talking about right now and the philosophy of I don't

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Speaker 1: want to burn people with my feelings and the misconception

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Speaker 1: that they'll just go away if I don't talk about them.

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Speaker 3: So initially, for the first like year, probably I didn't

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Speaker 3: know about it, and he was actually like very even keeled.

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Speaker 3: It would come out a little bit when we would

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Speaker 3: go to visit his family and he would say like,

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Speaker 3: oh me, my dad, but head sometimes even nowadays, like

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Speaker 3: I'll leave like water bottles that I've drank around the house,

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Speaker 3: And I didn't know until the past couple months that

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Speaker 3: it was something that bothered him because he doesn't bring

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Speaker 3: up those small things. So it's like I kind of

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Speaker 3: wonder sometimes, like what other things do I do that

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Speaker 3: bother him that he's just not saying anything about because

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Speaker 3: in my mind, I was like, oh, nothing about me

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Speaker 3: bothers this guy.

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Speaker 1: And he's laughing. So, Jake, it sounds like she's on

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Speaker 1: the right track here that maybe there are some other

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Speaker 1: things you haven't shared with her.

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Speaker 4: It would have to come up at the moment. But

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Speaker 4: if she did something, I guess I can't think of anything,

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Speaker 4: like right off the top of my head, the water

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Speaker 4: bottles is just just a peppeeve of mine, just having

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Speaker 4: all these empty plastic water bottles the nightstand and one

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Speaker 4: day to put something in it and on her side

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Speaker 4: and there was like six empty plastic water bottles, and

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Speaker 4: why can't they just be put in the recycling?

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Speaker 1: They're just And it was that moment that made you

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Speaker 1: bring it up with her, like it had to get

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Speaker 1: to the six empty water bottles in the nightstand.

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Speaker 4: I don't really know how it was actually brought up.

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Speaker 4: It may have been somewhat recent where I cleaned up

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Speaker 4: I found a bunch of them, took them all out

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Speaker 4: and then to the recycling, came back in and there

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Speaker 4: was like three more sitting on the counter that she

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Speaker 4: had brought back. I don't know where she pulled them

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Speaker 4: out from.

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Speaker 2: The water bottles are a great exone because they're a

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Speaker 2: small thing and we're laughing about it, but it happens

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Speaker 2: a lot, and so that's when we talk about accumulating

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Speaker 2: these kinds of feelings. You can see that if you

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Speaker 2: count how many water bottles are left around, how often

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Speaker 2: it adds up to much more than just a pet peeve.

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Speaker 2: And that's why when you feel this accumulation of frustrations,

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Speaker 2: it is important to express and address it. I do

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Speaker 2: want to go to Isabella because I want to hear

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Speaker 2: Jake what that experience was like. The fear is very

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Speaker 2: very appropriate when you're having your first child, but were

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Speaker 2: you also excited? How did it feel when she was born,

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Speaker 2: when you were holding her. I'd like to hear about

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Speaker 2: your experience.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was exciting. As scary as it was, it

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Speaker 4: was nice. Had no idea what I was getting into,

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Speaker 4: but she was this perfect little thing. I have a

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Speaker 4: selfie that I took in the hospital holding her and

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Speaker 4: her eyes are open staring at the camera, and it

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Speaker 4: just yeah, it was a nice moment. I actually vividly

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Speaker 4: remember my dad. He was out in the waiting room

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Speaker 4: for quite a few hours once they found out that

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Speaker 4: the baby was coming, and I remember walking out Tom

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Speaker 4: telling them that she was here and just breaking down

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Speaker 4: a crying.

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Speaker 1: And so these bursts of anger toward Isabella, they weren't

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Speaker 1: happening until your son was born, or were they also

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Speaker 1: happening periodically before he was born?

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Speaker 4: Periodically? I know she's just a toddler, but when she

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Speaker 4: knows better, she's sometimes will look at you and smile,

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Speaker 4: even though you tell her no, and she will just

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Speaker 4: look at you and smile and do it anyway, and

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Speaker 4: then she just tries me nuts.

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Speaker 2: Toddler's do that because that's how they learned. They test

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Speaker 2: the limits all the time to see what's allowed and

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Speaker 2: what isn't and it requires a lot of repetition, so

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Speaker 2: those limits have to be reinforced over and over again.

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Speaker 2: And when she looks at you and smiles, she's almost

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Speaker 2: like signaling you about to test the limit here, So

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Speaker 2: let's see what you do. Can you give me an example, Jake,

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Speaker 2: when you do have an outbust with Isabella? What does

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Speaker 2: that look like?

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Speaker 4: It's yelling? I get loud, I get very frustrated and

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Speaker 4: say what Instead of just saying I need you to

365
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Speaker 4: clean these up? I would just say that out a

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Speaker 4: much louder yelling volume. I don't like messes, and when

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Speaker 4: there is a big mess, that frustrates me, and I

368
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:36,560
Speaker 4: will say what the and start cleaning it up? Why

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Speaker 4: did you do that? I don't have a sensor, and

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Speaker 4: I would say probably what the f? Why did you?

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Speaker 4: Why did you do that? And just very angry manner.

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Speaker 2: And how does she react when you yell at her

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Speaker 2: like that?

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Speaker 4: Sometimes she he just gets quiet and sits there. There's

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Speaker 4: been other times where she's laughing, which gets me even

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Speaker 4: more frustrated. And then there's other times where you could

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Speaker 4: definitely tell she feels guilty or upset about it, and

378
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Speaker 4: then she'll start crying and I continue to be mad

379
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Speaker 4: in this situation. And then once the situation has been resolved,

380
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Speaker 4: whether it's cleaning it up or whatever the case is,

381
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Speaker 4: is when I get out of seeing red and take

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Speaker 4: a step back and realize she's just a toddler, and

383
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Speaker 4: I will hold her and give her a hug and

384
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Speaker 4: tell her I'm sorry, and then she'll it's okay.

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Speaker 1: You have this phrase rupture and repair, and so when

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Speaker 1: there's a rupture, whether that's in a relationship between adults

387
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,359
Speaker 1: or between parents and children, it's not just that a

388
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,800
Speaker 1: rupture happened, But then how does it get repaired? And

389
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Speaker 1: it sounds like you attempt to repair it with Isabella,

390
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Speaker 1: But the problem is that it happens frequently enough that

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Speaker 1: she might not trust the repair, and she might not

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Speaker 1: also be able to really tell you how she feels

393
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Speaker 1: in those moments. So she says it's okay, almost to

394
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Speaker 1: make you feel better, but I'm guessing that it has

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Speaker 1: a bigger effect on her and that it's probably not

396
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Speaker 1: so okay with her. And so I'm wondering about when

397
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Speaker 1: this first started happening, and Becca, you saw it and

398
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Speaker 1: you told Jake that you weren't comfortable with it. How

399
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,840
Speaker 1: did those conversations go in the very beginning, and then

400
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 1: how have they evolved over time?

401
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Speaker 3: So in the beginning, I wouldn't talk to him about

402
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,119
Speaker 3: it in front of Isabella. Sometimes it would be like

403
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,440
Speaker 3: I would hear him yelling, and I would come from

404
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,399
Speaker 3: another room and then help to kind of facilitate the

405
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 3: repair part. And then at a leader point, I would

406
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:05,119
Speaker 3: talk to Jake and be like, hey, like that wasn't okay.

407
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,399
Speaker 3: That probably really hurt her, and he would say, you know,

408
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Speaker 3: I know, I'm sorry it happened. I'm gonna work really

409
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Speaker 3: hard and I won't.

410
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Speaker 4: Do it again.

411
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Speaker 1: What did that mean? Work really hard? You mean Jake

412
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Speaker 1: on your own or going to therapy.

413
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Speaker 4: On my own? Try to think before reacting.

414
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Speaker 1: Did you ever get any tools for that from your

415
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Speaker 1: earlier therapy or just maybe some research you did or

416
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Speaker 1: a book you read or anything like that.

417
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 3: No, you try counting.

418
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Speaker 4: Yeah, I do have a repriver so often just take

419
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 4: a deep breath and count to maybe ten and trying

420
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Speaker 4: to de escalate.

421
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Speaker 1: Does that help at all?

422
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:48,120
Speaker 2: Yes?

423
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Speaker 4: Sometimes?

424
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Speaker 1: And so when you hear Becca saying this, what is

425
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,399
Speaker 1: it like for you? When Becca brings this up to

426
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Speaker 1: you that she's uncomfortable with the way that you're react

427
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 1: acting to Isabella frustrating?

428
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Speaker 4: I know I need to change for sure. It's disheartening,

429
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Speaker 4: you know, knowing that I'm not making I guess becka happy,

430
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 4: and I know the damage it's potentially doing to Isabella.

431
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:23,360
Speaker 2: What is the damage you think it might be doing

432
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 2: to Isabella.

433
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 4: The mental damage she might have later in life. I

434
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 4: have noticed recently, I feel like, very recently, that she's

435
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,639
Speaker 4: starting to have a little bit of a temper and

436
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 4: reacting to scenarios the way I would react to scenarios.

437
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,359
Speaker 4: And I have actually told her not to be like

438
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Speaker 4: me in these scenarios, to be more like mom.

439
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 2: Right, But that doesn't really work when you're modeling for

440
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 2: her that it's okay to react in anger because here

441
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Speaker 2: I do it frequently. Then you can say, oh, you

442
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,719
Speaker 2: shouldn't do it, But are you actually teaching her right?

443
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,439
Speaker 4: Which And this is something I've just noticed, probably within

444
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 4: the past two weeks. That was a big eye opener

445
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:05,640
Speaker 4: for sure.

446
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 1: What happened in the last two weeks.

447
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 4: I personally have noticed how she's been reacting to certain scenarios.

448
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 2: And what does that change for you that you noticing

449
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 2: that she's imitating you?

450
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 4: Sad to say, but that's so far nothing?

451
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 2: Why not?

452
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 4: I don't have an answer for that. I don't know.

453
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 1: You butt heads with your father? Did your parents yell

454
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 1: at you?

455
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 3: No?

456
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 4: No?

457
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 3: No.

458
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 4: The reason my dad and I butt head so much

459
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 4: is he loves getting under people's skin, Like if he

460
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 4: knows something is bothering me, he will just dig and

461
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 4: dig and dig until I explode.

462
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,639
Speaker 1: So you're the one who explodes, but he does, yes, and.

463
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 4: Then once I explode, then it's made him yelling at

464
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:51,239
Speaker 4: each other.

465
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: So the anger management that you felt you needed in

466
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: your early twenties when you went to a therapist? What

467
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 1: precipitated that? What was going on in your life where

468
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 1: you felt like, I really need to understand this better?

469
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 4: A previous relationship set of if I didn't do something

470
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 4: about it and see a therapist, then she was leaving.

471
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: And did you agree that maybe it was problematic what

472
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: was going on? Or did you just go because you

473
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 1: didn't want to lose her? I just want so you

474
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: didn't think it was really problematic at the time like

475
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 1: you do now, because now you're saying you do.

476
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 2: Are you saying that now, Jake? Do you think that

477
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,880
Speaker 2: it's problematic now? Yeah?

478
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely.

479
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 1: What's different between now and then? Before you didn't think

480
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 1: it was problematic, but now you do. What's changed for you?

481
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 4: The kids? Seeing the way Isabella is reacting to things now,

482
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 4: it's definitely the kids.

483
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 1: Does this happen with your son too. I know he's

484
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 1: five months, but does it happen with him at all?

485
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, crying, crying is just just gets under my skin incredibly.

486
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 4: And Isabella was she very rarely cried. She was just

487
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 4: always this happy baby. And then Dean, he was just

488
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 4: constantly crying and it was definitely frustrating.

489
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 2: It's interesting, Jake, because the two things that you've mentioned

490
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 2: that really frustrate you are crying and messages, and you

491
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 2: have a baby and a toddler and a wife with

492
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 2: a what about a problem? So it's really it's a

493
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 2: deadly combination. And I'm talking about it, but truly, it

494
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 2: seems that if those are the sensitivities, you know, there's

495
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 2: just fertile ground to be frustrated a lot. Now, you

496
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 2: said that you do take it seriously. Now, you do

497
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,360
Speaker 2: recognize now that it's a problem, and recently so I'll

498
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 2: give you that. But even in the recent couple of

499
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 2: weeks where it's occurred to you more, have you thought

500
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 2: of doing any research, you know, Lorios, if you've read

501
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 2: any books or read any articles, is that something you've

502
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 2: thought about acquiring tools? Because part of the problem you

503
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 2: have is you have no tools. You have the you know, count,

504
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 2: but that's it. Otherwise it's just strain and hope it

505
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 2: doesn't come out, which is not a tool. Have you

506
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 2: thought about looking for tools? Discuss that with Beckap perhaps

507
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 2: over the past couple of weeks, I have not.

508
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,919
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about what these conversations might look like between

509
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: the two of you, because it sounds like they've come

510
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: up quite a bit. You're nodding, so, yes, okay. Sometimes

511
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: when we have a lot of feelings, we go numb.

512
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,360
Speaker 1: And what I'm hearing with you, Jake is that there's

513
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: almost like something isn't going in because I imagine that

514
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: maybe you go a little bit numb. And people are

515
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,400
Speaker 1: confused about numbness. Often they think, if I go numb,

516
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 1: I'm not feeling anything. But numbness isn't the absence of feelings.

517
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: Numbness is a sense of being overwhelmed by too many feelings.

518
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 1: We can't process all the feelings, and we go numb.

519
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, Becka, from your perspective, what is it like

520
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 1: when you're trying to talk to Jake about this? And

521
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: in your letter you said you've tried various ways of

522
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,919
Speaker 1: setting boundaries around it, like we should go to therapy,

523
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 1: or you should go to anger management, or I might

524
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 1: leave you. So Jake, you're saying you go numb in

525
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 1: these conversations pretty much, that you don't really have a

526
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 1: sense of what you're feeling when she's talking about it,

527
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 1: and Becca, I'm wondering for you, what is it like

528
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: when you're talking to Jake and it seems like maybe

529
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: it's not being received by him.

530
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 3: Invalidating and really frustrating because I feel like there should

531
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 3: be an emotional reaction and that there should be some openness,

532
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 3: and I suspect that he is really motivated deep down

533
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 3: and is hurt by the fact that he's like lashing

534
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 3: out and potentially damaging Isabella and our relationship. But when

535
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 3: I don't get anything out of him except for I'll

536
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 3: try harder, it hurts. It makes me feel like he

537
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 3: doesn't care. And then I actually like didn't know about

538
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 3: the therapy they had gone to before, and it's just

539
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 3: a little hurtful to hear that, like that person saying

540
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 3: that she might leave would lead to him being like, Okay,

541
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 3: I'm going to go get therapy, but me saying it's

542
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 3: not healthy for our daughter. You need to get therapy

543
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 3: or we're going to leave so that I can protect her.

544
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 3: Resulted in like, I'm not going to get therapy. I'm

545
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 3: just going to try harder.

546
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: You know, I'm looking at your face, Jake, and I

547
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: see so much coming across your face right now. Because

548
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: I was looking at your face, there were these conflicting

549
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: emotions running through you, and they probably lasted a millisecond

550
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: because you don't want to feel them, so you have

551
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: become very skilled at getting rid of them as soon

552
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: as they show up. And on the one hand, I

553
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 1: could see the pain. I could see the pain of

554
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: I'm hurting these people that I love. I could see

555
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: the pain of I don't want to lose my wife.

556
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: I don't want to damage my daughter. And I imagine

557
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: too that there's a part of you that's hard to acknowledge,

558
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: which might be this fantasy which I don't think you

559
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: actually want to come true. But sometimes we have fantasies

560
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:42,959
Speaker 1: about these things when we feel really trapped and stuck,

561
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: and maybe it would be a relief, Maybe I would

562
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: get that freedom that I really wanted because now I

563
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: have two kids. And in your letter back you were

564
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: saying it really escalated during your second pregnancy and the

565
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: postpartum Now there's really a lack of freedom with the

566
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: two young ones, and that there's a part of you,

567
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: Jake that doesn't know what to do with this real need,

568
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: and it's a legitimate need to have some kind of freedom,

569
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: especially when this came at a time in your life

570
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,479
Speaker 1: when you weren't expecting to have to give it up.

571
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: And you're nodding, so I can see that that's true too,

572
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 1: And it's okay to be able to talk about all

573
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 1: the different ingredients here and not just what you think

574
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,719
Speaker 1: Becca wants to hear, but what the truth of your

575
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: experience is, because I actually think that will help you

576
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: to manage your anger differently. And so I'm wondering if

577
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: we could try a little exercise here right now where

578
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 1: you guys can talk about this a little bit differently.

579
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: Are you guys willing to try that?

580
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 3: Yeah?

581
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So if you can face each other and

582
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 1: if you can hold hands with each other, I wonder

583
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 1: if Becca you can show Jake that you can tolerate

584
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: the truth of his experience, all of it. So, Jake,

585
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,479
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you could tell Becca a little bit

586
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: about the conflict that you're experiencing of on the one hand,

587
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 1: wanting to be a really good father and a really

588
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: good partner, and on the other hand, feeling really ripped

589
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 1: off and feeling like sometimes it just feels really unfair,

590
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: and sometimes you need a break, and you don't quite

591
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: know what to do with all of these feelings, and

592
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: you don't even know how to talk to Becca about them.

593
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: Can you share whatever's going on with you and your

594
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: own words with her? And Becca, I just want you

595
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: to breathe through this. You don't need to respond, You

596
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: just need to be present so that you can open

597
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 1: up a space between you for the truth.

598
00:32:52,440 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 4: Like we've discussed, I do have me time ever since

599
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 4: the new job. I don't ever get any time. I

600
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 4: love you guys, and we do have a lot of

601
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 4: fun together. There's definitely times that I definitely want to

602
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 4: run away, There's no doubt about it. But I will

603
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 4: always be here. I don't ever want to go away.

604
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 4: I love you, guys.

605
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 2: Could you say jink a little bit about how it

606
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 2: feels in those moments we want to run away?

607
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 4: Talking about feelings. One thing I don't feeling.

608
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,239
Speaker 1: I want to reframe that for you a little bit,

609
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: because I think that you're not comfortable doing it, but

610
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: I don't know yet whether you like doing it, because

611
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: I have a feeling that once you get comfortable talking

612
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: about your feelings, you will like it very much because

613
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: it will help you to have a place to go

614
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 1: with them instead of doing what you're doing with them now.

615
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: And Becca, watch out because he might start talking a

616
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: lot about his feelings in the future once he realizes

617
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: how much he likes it.

618
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 4: The times that I want to just run away, I

619
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:27,879
Speaker 4: think of the days having fun, what could have been

620
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 4: without kids, the traveling, the adventures. I feel like my

621
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 4: time was cut short.

622
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 3: And it.

623
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 4: Just wasn't ready to give up the nights out with

624
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,439
Speaker 4: the boys and the trips.

625
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 2: When Isabella is frustrating you and you have those thoughts

626
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 2: about but I got rubbed of this. You're juxtaposing feeling

627
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 2: really free and liberated and fun, but you're juxtaposing that

628
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 2: with feeling in that moment. What is it trapped? Is

629
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 2: it suffocated? Is it stressed? Is it sad? I'm just

630
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 2: giving you different words, but I want you to try

631
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 2: and use your own words to describe the feeling.

632
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 4: It's sad. Was the one thing that you said that

633
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 4: definitely definitely feel sad, sorry for myself, self pity. I

634
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 4: know I'm being selfish, that's a judgment. But going back

635
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 4: to the feelings you've talked about feeling sad, I'm associating

636
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 4: the sadness with grief. That you're grieving this idea of

637
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:56,800
Speaker 4: this part of your life that you didn't get to

638
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 4: really complete in the way you wanted to. And that

639
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 4: sometimes because you aren't able to really talk about the grief,

640
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,720
Speaker 4: when something is right in front of you that reminds

641
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 4: you of what you lost, that that triggers that big

642
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 4: reaction in you. Is that what happens for you. I

643
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 4: don't know what happened when I just said that. I

644
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 4: was just thinking that I love you well, not you.

645
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: But do you see how you got distracted from the feeling? Yeah, yeah, yes,

646
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 1: you said sometimes it frustrates you that when you're yelling

647
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 1: at Isabella she laughs. And when I just made you

648
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: a little bit uncomfortable by asking you to think about

649
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: your feelings, you laughed. So I want you to think

650
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: about that next time you're yelling at Isabella and she laughs.

651
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 1: It means she's uncomfortable. She's feeling something but wants to

652
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: get rid of it, just like you're doing right now.

653
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: So let's go back for a second to that feeling.

654
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: I imagine that there's some grieving that you haven't done

655
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: around the loss of this version of this time in

656
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: your life. That would look a little different. And when

657
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: Isabella does something, when the baby is crying, that's a

658
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 1: stark reminder of what you have lost, and so I

659
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: imagine that it brings up those feelings of grief and loss,

660
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: and you get really angry because these are unprocessed feelings

661
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: of grief and loss. So when you said sad, I

662
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: can see that because that's grief. That's the sadness. So

663
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 1: you're nodding to that. Does that resonate with you?

664
00:37:58,760 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 4: Yes?

665
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 2: Yes, Jake. I think part of what blocks you from

666
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 2: talking to Becca about these feelings about feeling the loss,

667
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 2: about feeling sad is what you said afterwards, Well, that

668
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 2: feels selfish. And I'm wondering if you realize that Becca

669
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 2: must be having some of the same feelings because her

670
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 2: days of independence were also cut short in that way.

671
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 2: Has it occurred to you that these might be feelings

672
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 2: she's having as well to some degree, No, it.

673
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 1: Did not, and they might not be exactly the same feelings,

674
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 1: but she probably has her own experience of parenthood where

675
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: it's very challenging, especially if she's still in medical school

676
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: or doing residency or starting out. Becca, can you talk

677
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:57,399
Speaker 1: to Jake a little bit about the various experiences you've

678
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 1: had as a new parent.

679
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, So, in Isabella I was born, I had this

680
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 3: idea of kind of the mom. I was going to

681
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 3: be a super mom, like that I could handle residency

682
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,399
Speaker 3: and I could be this great mom and do both

683
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 3: things one hundred percent. And it's been tough realizing that,

684
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 3: like there is a version of myself in residency and

685
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 3: like at work that I could have been if I

686
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 3: didn't have kids, and like a level of devotion I

687
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 3: could have thrown myself in. And at the same time,

688
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 3: like if I didn't have residency or commitment to like

689
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 3: this line of work, there's a version of myself that,

690
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 3: like a mom version of myself I could be for

691
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 3: Isabella and for Dean, and kind of feeling like I'm

692
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 3: always falling short in both places. That's been been really tough.

693
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: Jake, what is it like for you to hear that

694
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: she also struggles with imagining these different versions of her

695
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: life if she didn't have kids, how she would perform

696
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 1: at work, if she didn't have work, how she would

697
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 1: be as a parent. Did you know that you had

698
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 1: that in common, these fantasy lives that you think about sometimes, No,

699
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 1: I didn't know.

700
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 4: I want you to be happy. So it's definitely very

701
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 4: sad to hear that you also have I guess this

702
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 4: conflict or battle of what could be?

703
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 1: Is it also a little bit of a relief to

704
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: know that both of you, like many new parents, have struggled.

705
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yes, most new parents have moments where they wish

706
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,320
Speaker 2: there was an eject button that they could smick because

707
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 2: it's just so much and it's not unusual and doesn't

708
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 2: mean they don't love their kids. It just means it

709
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 2: can be really overwhelming. And the thing, Jake, is that

710
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 2: most of the feelings that you're described being are normative.

711
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:15,240
Speaker 2: There's nothing unusual about them, especially when a pregnancy is unplanned.

712
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:18,760
Speaker 2: But I think there's a way in which you feel

713
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 2: that you shouldn't have these feelings, or it's selfish of

714
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 2: you to have these most natural of thoughts. And so

715
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 2: I'm glad you say that you feel this relief to

716
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 2: hear that Becca has her version of those feelings, as

717
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 2: do most parents, and therein is the benefit of sharing

718
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 2: your feelings. You get to find out that your partner

719
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 2: has similar ones and that there's something that actually unites

720
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 2: you in these feelings rather than divides. You're not that

721
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 2: I'm saying that, but is that how it feels to you? Yes?

722
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, Becca? Can you tell Jake what it was like

723
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,760
Speaker 1: to hear all of that from him earlier?

724
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 3: Refreshing? So I feel like it's a treat whenever I

725
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 3: get to hear kind of like that deep of stuff

726
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 3: from you.

727
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: Did you feel that he was selfish when you heard

728
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 1: that or what was your impression of his fantasy of

729
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,720
Speaker 1: sometimes wanting to hit the check button as Guy said.

730
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 3: I didn't think it was selfish. I could like identify

731
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 3: with it kind of like mirrored like feelings that I've

732
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 3: had before. And I feel like, you know, Jake would

733
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 3: be somebody safe that I could talk to that about

734
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 3: not have to worry about being judged, And I'm glad

735
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 3: to know that he can say that to me, that

736
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 3: we're both feeling that sometimes.

737
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 1: Jake, have you ever shared this kind of feeling with anybody,

738
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,879
Speaker 1: not just about having kids, but something that felt really

739
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,840
Speaker 1: shameful to you, or something that made you feel not

740
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 1: good about yourself.

741
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 4: I don't think so.

742
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 1: So this is a new experience.

743
00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, I think part of what might hold you back, Jake,

744
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 2: is quite quite basic in what it is, And I

745
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 2: think that is that you have trouble, like many people,

746
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 2: identifying what you feel, but specifically putting a name to it.

747
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,319
Speaker 2: It was difficult for you to come up with those

748
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,359
Speaker 2: names because it's a mush of feelings. You know you're

749
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,800
Speaker 2: feeling something, but you're feeling it in your chest and

750
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 2: your throat and your shoulders and your stomach and you

751
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 2: it's difficult to tell which is which and what is what.

752
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 2: But the more practice you have naming those feelings, the

753
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 2: more fluent you get at being able to do that.

754
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 2: And I think that it's one of the things that's

755
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 2: been holding you back that you just worry that you

756
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 2: don't have the words. You might not be able to

757
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 2: identify exactly what you're feeling, but even if you can,

758
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 2: it's hard to put words.

759
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, you nailed it, not having the words. What you

760
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,280
Speaker 4: just said was perfect, Becca.

761
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 2: How confident do you feel with your ability to name

762
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 2: your feelings, identify them, speak about them, label them.

763
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 3: I feel very comfortable. I know some people for kids,

764
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 3: they want them to be like very smart, so they'll

765
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 3: work with them on like math and letters and stuff.

766
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:23,800
Speaker 3: But for me, it's like identifying emotions. So with Isabella,

767
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 3: like she can tell you why she's feeling how she's feeling.

768
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: So what does Isabella say after these incidents happen where

769
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 1: Jake is angry with her? Does she talk to you

770
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 1: Becca or does she talk to you Jake about what

771
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: she feels? Does she have the vocabulary to do that?

772
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:46,839
Speaker 1: I would say yes, what does she actually say?

773
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 4: She knows when I'm upset with work, and she will

774
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 4: come over and actually tell me how I'm feeling. Right, See,

775
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 4: you're up set, daddy, maybe a hug will make you

776
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 4: feel better, and she'll give me a hug.

777
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 1: And on the one hand, that's very cute because she's little,

778
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 1: and it also shows empathy. But it's also possible that

779
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: she does that because she knows that when Daddy is upset,

780
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 1: Daddy can get really mad. Yeah, and so I want

781
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 1: you to see both sides of that. That she may

782
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 1: feel like she needs to regulate you so that you

783
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: don't lash out at her makes sense, And so I'm

784
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 1: wondering maybe with beccasins Becca, you say you're a little

785
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 1: bit more fluent with feelings. Does she ever say to you,

786
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:44,760
Speaker 1: I was scared of daddy, or I'm really mad at daddy,

787
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 1: or I was really sad? Does she ever talk about

788
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 1: her experience of being yelled at with you?

789
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, all three of those. She usually doesn't spend a

790
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,840
Speaker 3: lot of time talking about it, but she'll like, I

791
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 3: was sad when Daddy yelled at me, and I don't

792
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 3: know why he yelled at me. And we'll kind of

793
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 3: talk about, oh, this is where Daddy is coming from,

794
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 3: and this is where you were coming from, and you know,

795
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 3: daddy's taking some space right now because that's how he

796
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,399
Speaker 3: calms down to feel better or what would feel good

797
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 3: for you. And then I'll end up telling Jake how

798
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 3: Isabella is feeling, and then he'll go and do the

799
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 3: like repair work you mentioned earlier.

800
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: Do you ever say to Isabella that even though Daddy

801
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 1: was upset, that it's not okay that he yelled at her.

802
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 3: I do, but I don't know how much of that

803
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 3: gets through. And I'll tell her like, she's not responsible

804
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 3: for Daddy getting mad, and but she's still a good

805
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 3: kid and everybody gets mad.

806
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,839
Speaker 1: Sometimes there's another way to deal with her anger when

807
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: we get mad, that we can use a different voice

808
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:58,720
Speaker 1: to express what we're upset about.

809
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:02,399
Speaker 3: I'll have to keep that in my toolbox to say

810
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 3: next time.

811
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:08,320
Speaker 1: Jake, Now that you're seeing how much of an impact

812
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 1: this has on Isabella, not only now, but might have

813
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 1: on her as she grows up, I'm wondering when Becka says, hey,

814
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: we could go to therapy, or you could do some

815
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 1: anger management, or even I don't know if we can

816
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 1: stay if this is going to go on, does like

817
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 1: all three things have happened? What do you think is

818
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 1: keeping you from doing something that might be helpful, not

819
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 1: just for the other people, but mostly for you?

820
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:46,879
Speaker 4: Lazy? If I want to put in the work.

821
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 1: I don't think people are really lazy. I think that

822
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: people avoid things and then they look like they're lazy.

823
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna say it a different way. Why are

824
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:01,840
Speaker 1: you avoiding dealing with this given how high the stakes

825
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:03,720
Speaker 1: are and how.

826
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 2: Long you've been dealing with it.

827
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 4: I keep telling myself that I can fix it myself,

828
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 4: but you know that.

829
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: That's not been the case. So that's again a way

830
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,720
Speaker 1: that we avoid as we lie to ourselves. It's really

831
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 1: easy to tell ourselves what we want to hear, so

832
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 1: we can avoid doing the thing that we need to do.

833
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: I have a theory about why you might be avoiding this,

834
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 1: and that's because of that conflict we were talking about

835
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 1: earlier between the part of you that feels ripped off

836
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 1: and the part of you that wants to be a

837
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 1: part of this family. And I think that there's a

838
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 1: part of you that isn't even in your awareness, that

839
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 1: feels like if I go deal with this, then I

840
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 1: am giving in to this life, and I don't get

841
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: to hold on to any part of that other life life.

842
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 1: At least when I'm acting out, that part of my

843
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 1: life is alive, and I want to suggest that there

844
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,840
Speaker 1: might be other ways to keep that other part of

845
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 1: your life alive and also do things in your life

846
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 1: that might give you more balance.

847
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 4: I know within the next few months things are going

848
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 4: to get significantly better. We get to move back home

849
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:36,319
Speaker 4: with all of our friends and family. Where we are

850
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,919
Speaker 4: now we have no support systems. We'll have grandparents only

851
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 4: fifteen minutes away instead of two hours away, friends only

852
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 4: five ten minutes away instead two hours away. And I

853
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 4: already know the job I'm now. I am resigning from

854
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 4: this position because it's just not healthy having our friends

855
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 4: and family and going back to the job that I

856
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 4: enjoyed doing a lot of that will change.

857
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 2: It's definitely will And being without a support system is

858
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 2: specially difficult when you have two young kids and a newborn.

859
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 2: But Jake, I wanted to offer you another theory about

860
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 2: why you might not have sort help.

861
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 4: Well.

862
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 2: Number One, you did in the past, and it doesn't

863
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 2: sound like you walked out with a lot of tools

864
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 2: from that experience. And a lot of times when people

865
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 2: and especially men have issues with anger management, they think

866
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 2: that they just need to learn to hold it in better,

867
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 2: that they just need to get that better cork that

868
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,399
Speaker 2: will stuff it in and then it won't come out.

869
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 2: And right now you don't know how to get a

870
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 2: better cork. It's very difficult to understand a nonlinear relationship

871
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:03,760
Speaker 2: between talking about your feelings of frustration, loss of the bachelorhood.

872
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 2: How is that related to you know, me having the

873
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 2: temper or keeping it in about the water bottles or

874
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 2: the messes you know? And I think that part of

875
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 2: what makes you hesitate is you just don't understand or

876
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 2: know what possible tools can people give me that will

877
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 2: actually help me other than me just needing the willpower

878
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,879
Speaker 2: to not explode. And I'm wondering if that's something that's

879
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 2: going on with you that you just don't quite know

880
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 2: what that help could even be, or that doesn't quite

881
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 2: make sense to you, And so it feels it will

882
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 2: just come down to me needing to not and I'm

883
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 2: trying to not anyway, So what else can I do?

884
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:48,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, I can definitely relate with that, especially the core scenario.

885
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 4: That's how I feel like I just need to try

886
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 4: harder to suppress the anger back up.

887
00:51:55,480 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 1: You've talked about thinking you don't know how long you

888
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 1: can keep going in this situation. Where are you with

889
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 1: that right now?

890
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 3: I feel conflicted because I want to believe that, like

891
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 3: once we move back and there's more balance, that everything

892
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 3: will get better. But I feel this like ambivalence because

893
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,320
Speaker 3: for me, I want to stay with Jake and I

894
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:32,800
Speaker 3: want us to be a family and be together forever,

895
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 3: and I'm happy, But then as a mother seeing the

896
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:44,439
Speaker 3: impact that it has on Isabella, it makes me feel

897
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 3: like to do what's best for her in the times

898
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 3: when the anger does get pretty bad that it'd be

899
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 3: better if, like Jake was just like a part time parent.

900
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 3: And I feel like those two parts of me fight

901
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:01,439
Speaker 3: a lot.

902
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 1: Can I ask you, Jake, if we flashed forward several decades,

903
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:16,359
Speaker 1: Isabella and Dean are really struggling in their lives. They're

904
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 1: struggling with how they feel about themselves. They're struggling and

905
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 1: then their friendships and they're romantic relationships. They may be

906
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 1: numbing themselves with certain things like drugs or alcohol. Maybe

907
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 1: they are able to tell you you hurt us constantly

908
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 1: when we were growing up. How would you feel about

909
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 1: your life choices several decades on that were the case.

910
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:48,800
Speaker 4: Horrible?

911
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 1: Do you understand that that's the potential path you're on?

912
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:54,319
Speaker 4: I do now.

913
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:03,239
Speaker 2: So, Becca and Jake, we have some advice for you,

914
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 2: and it's in several parts. Part one is this. There's

915
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 2: this wonderful tool that we love called the feelings Wheel

916
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 2: or the emotions Wheel, and it's just that it's a

917
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 2: wheel with a lot of different emotions on it. We'd

918
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 2: like you to print one out. They're very easy to

919
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 2: find online, and we'd like you every evening when you

920
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:27,560
Speaker 2: have literally five minutes each of you take turns. Jake

921
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 2: would like you to start and just talk about your

922
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 2: day and name at least five feelings that correspond to

923
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 2: your narrative. You don't have to know them ahead of time.

924
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 2: You just look at the wheel when you know what

925
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 2: you're feeling inside but you can't articulate it. You look

926
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 2: at the wheel, and just when I gave you multiple shows,

927
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:48,719
Speaker 2: you said, yes, this one, Yes, this one, that's how

928
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:50,879
Speaker 2: the wheel functions. You look at it and go, oh, right,

929
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:53,279
Speaker 2: it's this. But would like you every day to have

930
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 2: five minutes where each of you just talk about each

931
00:54:55,960 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 2: other's days, using and naming your feelings. So that's the

932
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 2: first one. The second assignment we gaveing you is, Jake,

933
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:10,280
Speaker 2: we want you to google two articles about the effects

934
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 2: of yelling at your kids and find it from reputable

935
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 2: sources the Mayo Clinic, WebMD, and we'd like you to

936
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 2: read just a couple of short articles and then tell

937
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 2: Becca what you've learned from them, so that you can

938
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:27,400
Speaker 2: have a conversation and have discussions about the impact of

939
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 2: yelling at your kids. So that's not something you're ignoring

940
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 2: that you're really talking about as you're trying to control

941
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:35,400
Speaker 2: the anger. What is the impact of yelling at your

942
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 2: kids at young ages, and we think.

943
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:43,839
Speaker 1: That that'll give you a good foundation for the next exercise,

944
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 1: which is that Becca, we would like you to write

945
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:52,439
Speaker 1: a letter, as if it's decades in the future, from

946
00:55:53,040 --> 00:56:00,920
Speaker 1: Isabella and Dean to Jake about what their lives are

947
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:05,480
Speaker 1: like and what the effect of this yelling has had

948
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:07,719
Speaker 1: on them if it continues the way that it does,

949
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 1: and we're going to imagine for this letter that it did.

950
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 1: And please don't try to protect his feelings, because Isabella

951
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:20,240
Speaker 1: and Dean will not try to protect his feelings. Kids

952
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 1: who are yelled at will be very clear, usually later

953
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:29,640
Speaker 1: in life, about the impact that it had on them.

954
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 1: And Jake, what we would like you to do is

955
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 1: write a letter back when you get that letter to

956
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:40,759
Speaker 1: your children who are now adults, about what you wish

957
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 1: you had done differently, if indeed you do, and really

958
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 1: be open and honest, just as open and honest as

959
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:52,320
Speaker 1: you were with Becca in the conversation today about other feelings.

960
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 1: We want you to be really open and honest with

961
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:58,759
Speaker 1: them about how it feels to you, knowing that this

962
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 1: is how they feel as adults. Given that the yelling

963
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:06,719
Speaker 1: didn't stop and the good news about this is it's

964
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 1: not actually happening in the future. You have a chance

965
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 1: to do things differently should you so choose. And the

966
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:23,640
Speaker 1: last part is that we would like you to learn

967
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 1: a little bit more about anger management because it sounds

968
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 1: like you don't really have tools that have worked for you.

969
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 1: So we would like you to join an anger management group.

970
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 1: And I know that your time is limited, so there

971
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 1: are also lots of online options where you can just

972
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 1: zoom into the group, and we would like you to

973
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 1: give it a try to see what it's like to

974
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 1: hear other people talk about their experiences, because you're definitely

975
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 1: not alone in this. Lots of people had modeling where

976
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 1: they didn't know there was another way to manage their feelings,

977
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:01,440
Speaker 1: and often they couldn't I identify their feelings, which is

978
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 1: something that you noticed in our conversation today that sometimes,

979
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:09,320
Speaker 1: like I said, you just don't know what the words

980
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:12,520
Speaker 1: are for the feelings. And the one thing that's really

981
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 1: easy to access is anger. So if we can get

982
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 1: underneath that, you might be able to have some tools

983
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 1: that will be helpful for you and maybe that'll help

984
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:25,560
Speaker 1: you take away some of the shame around it, realize

985
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 1: you're not alone, and then get some really good information

986
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:30,480
Speaker 1: about what might be helpful.

987
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 4: Okay, thank you, Marian guy.

988
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 1: Some couples can't do what they did, which is talk

989
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 1: about something that's really difficult and then still stay connected.

990
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 1: And they were still holding hands even when some of

991
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:59,080
Speaker 1: the content was difficult to hear. They stay present for

992
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 1: each other. And I think the challenge for Jake is

993
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 1: really the dissociating that he does. He knows intellectually that

994
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:12,160
Speaker 1: what he's doing is damaging to his children, and then

995
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 1: he comes up with all kinds of reasons why it's

996
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:18,680
Speaker 1: not a priority for him. And I think that when

997
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:20,760
Speaker 1: he gets more in touch with his feelings, and I

998
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 1: think really not being able to avoid what the future

999
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 1: might look like. Because when I brought that up at

1000
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:30,680
Speaker 1: the end, he finally said, yeah, I get it. We

1001
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:32,680
Speaker 1: don't know if he really gets it, but it was

1002
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:34,320
Speaker 1: the first time that he acknowledged that.

1003
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:35,320
Speaker 4: He does right.

1004
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:38,280
Speaker 2: And I also agree that he kind of knows intellectually

1005
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 2: that it's a problem. But that's why we gave in

1006
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 2: that research assignment, because he really needs to be clear

1007
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 2: that it is a problem. It's not a maybe, it's

1008
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 2: not a oh, you know, I was okay somehow.

1009
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:51,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not just the tone when we talk to

1010
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:53,680
Speaker 1: our kids, is the content as well, and he was

1011
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 1: saying that he says what the f to her, and

1012
00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:57,560
Speaker 1: as parents we all have times when it wasn't our

1013
00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:01,480
Speaker 1: finest parenting moment. When it's consistent in the way that

1014
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:05,280
Speaker 1: they're describing, it's really important for him to understand the

1015
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 1: effect that it's going to have on his children, and

1016
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:09,520
Speaker 1: that it is having on his children.

1017
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:18,080
Speaker 2: You're listening to dea therapists. We'll be back after a

1018
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 2: short break.

1019
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:32,520
Speaker 1: So, guy, we heard from Becca and Jake, and I'll

1020
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:35,000
Speaker 1: be curious to hear how that went for them.

1021
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:38,640
Speaker 3: Hey Louri, Hey guy, this is Beca and Jake.

1022
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:39,120
Speaker 4: Hello.

1023
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:42,440
Speaker 3: We're getting back in touch. Just to update you on

1024
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:45,080
Speaker 3: the assignments you gave us last week for.

1025
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 4: The feelings chart. We went over that every night and

1026
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 4: I feel like it sparked a lot of good conversations.

1027
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like it added some depth to our conversations,

1028
01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:00,320
Speaker 3: and I did notice that Jake just kind of in

1029
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 3: normal day to day conversations talked more about feelings, especially

1030
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 3: other than just anger and frustration. So I can already

1031
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:11,240
Speaker 3: see that paying off for the second one, which was

1032
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 3: looking up the effects of yelling, but I feel like

1033
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:17,440
Speaker 3: Jake it was difficult for him to confront that. I

1034
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:19,360
Speaker 3: felt like he avoided it most of the week and

1035
01:01:19,640 --> 01:01:22,480
Speaker 3: it lead to some nagging on my end. He handed

1036
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 3: up finding a really good series on YouTube that talked

1037
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:30,040
Speaker 3: about it, and I think it really piqued his interest

1038
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 3: to keep looking for more. So he suggested doing this

1039
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:35,840
Speaker 3: five day stop Yelling at your Kid's parenting challenge. So

1040
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:41,040
Speaker 3: we're starting that feeling optimistic about that. For the next assignment,

1041
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:45,920
Speaker 3: where I was writing the letter from Isabella and Dean's perspective,

1042
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:50,280
Speaker 3: it was challenging because there were so many different effects

1043
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:54,440
Speaker 3: that the yelling can have, so kind of encompassing everything

1044
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:57,840
Speaker 3: in that was a little difficult. So I did send

1045
01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 3: that over to Jake, and I think it was tough

1046
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:04,920
Speaker 3: for him to read and might not have been the

1047
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 3: most impactful, Like I wonder if he needs something a

1048
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:10,360
Speaker 3: little more concrete and tangible.

1049
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:14,280
Speaker 4: It was difficult for me to put myself in the

1050
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:19,400
Speaker 4: headspace of pretending to be in the future and it

1051
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:23,680
Speaker 4: didn't really resonate for me. As for the anger management classes,

1052
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 4: I'm not quite ready to jump into that yet, and

1053
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 4: I know I need to find coping mechanisms, which led

1054
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 4: me to a YouTube channel, so I'm going to start

1055
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:38,360
Speaker 4: there and see how that works for me.

1056
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 3: Overall, this has created some moments of conflict and a

1057
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 3: relationship that weren't there before, but I feel like it's

1058
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:50,520
Speaker 3: definitely an area where we can grow, and the couple

1059
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 3: of things that have happened since then, it's really helped

1060
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:56,000
Speaker 3: me be more empathetic to see where Jake's coming from

1061
01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 3: and where his mind might be at because I have

1062
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:03,520
Speaker 3: a better idea now. One of the quotes that really

1063
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:05,920
Speaker 3: stuck out to us in the parenting resource we were

1064
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 3: looking at was by Maya Angelo, and it goes, do

1065
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 3: the best you can until you know better, than when

1066
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:15,560
Speaker 3: you know better, do better. So I feel like at

1067
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:17,920
Speaker 3: this point we're just getting to a place where we're

1068
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:21,439
Speaker 3: building our knowledge and hopefully that'll lead to doing better

1069
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:25,480
Speaker 3: in the future. Thank you again for all of your

1070
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:28,400
Speaker 3: help and for taking the time to work with us

1071
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:28,640
Speaker 3: on this.

1072
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:34,600
Speaker 4: Thank you bye well.

1073
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:39,200
Speaker 2: That reinforced a feeling I had during the session that

1074
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 2: Jake was really starting from square one when it came

1075
01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:48,120
Speaker 2: to this understanding of how yelling at the kids can

1076
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:51,560
Speaker 2: impact them, how his being in touch with his own

1077
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:54,720
Speaker 2: emotions or being able to express them or not is

1078
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 2: impacting him. He really didn't see that connection at all,

1079
01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:01,720
Speaker 2: and now he's odd thing to create some kind of

1080
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:05,040
Speaker 2: connective tissue in his mind between these things, primarily by

1081
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 2: using the feelings shot. But I am a little disappointed

1082
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:13,600
Speaker 2: that he didn't take more ownership of the anger and

1083
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:16,919
Speaker 2: take more ownership of some of these tasks and really

1084
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:17,480
Speaker 2: dive in.

1085
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:22,040
Speaker 1: I think when we do these sessions, we want to

1086
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:26,439
Speaker 1: hold the hope for their growth, and at the same

1087
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:31,560
Speaker 1: time it can be disappointing. And I think in this case,

1088
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:36,160
Speaker 1: when other people are affected, like children, it's really hard

1089
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:40,720
Speaker 1: to have patience for the change to happen because you

1090
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:43,439
Speaker 1: know that as this is going on, this is really

1091
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:48,000
Speaker 1: affecting the children. And I think Becca is perhaps in

1092
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:51,120
Speaker 1: a little bit of denial too, because she said this

1093
01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:54,160
Speaker 1: week brought up some conflict between them that she didn't

1094
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:57,960
Speaker 1: know was there, and yet it seemed like it had

1095
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:00,920
Speaker 1: been there or she wouldn't have written that letter to us.

1096
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:03,920
Speaker 1: And I noticed too that she did most of the

1097
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 1: talking for Jake, and so it seemed like she was

1098
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 1: sort of driving this and hoping that something would change,

1099
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:14,040
Speaker 1: but it's really going to have to come from a

1100
01:05:14,120 --> 01:05:18,160
Speaker 1: place of Jake wanting to change. And there's something going

1101
01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:21,520
Speaker 1: on with Jake where he's sort of compartmentalizing things where

1102
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:23,440
Speaker 1: he said I couldn't really get into the space of

1103
01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 1: that letter from the future. He's always got a reason

1104
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:30,280
Speaker 1: that something isn't going to work in terms of helping

1105
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:34,640
Speaker 1: him to grow and change in this area. And I

1106
01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:37,480
Speaker 1: noticed too that they sometimes laugh through this, and I

1107
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:40,320
Speaker 1: know it's uncomfortable laughter, but it feels like something is

1108
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:42,680
Speaker 1: going to need to happen, not just with Jake but

1109
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:44,920
Speaker 1: also with Becca where they're really going to have to

1110
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:48,440
Speaker 1: have a reckoning around this behavior has to stop and

1111
01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:50,480
Speaker 1: what are we going to do because I don't think

1112
01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:52,880
Speaker 1: that they're really acting with the urgency that this deserves.

1113
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:56,600
Speaker 2: I agree, But I also think, because I said that

1114
01:05:56,720 --> 01:05:58,920
Speaker 2: he's starting from such an early point that if he

1115
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:01,560
Speaker 2: woms up to it, if he gets interested in these

1116
01:06:02,040 --> 01:06:05,600
Speaker 2: YouTube videos that he's watching, that a curiosity can build

1117
01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:08,840
Speaker 2: that might get him there, But that will depend on

1118
01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:11,640
Speaker 2: him doing it independently and really owning it at some point,

1119
01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:13,200
Speaker 2: rather than Becca just pushing him.

1120
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:15,880
Speaker 1: And I think the other pieces that when we're seeing

1121
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:19,920
Speaker 1: a couple, it's generally two people have an issue, So

1122
01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:22,040
Speaker 1: it might look like one person has an issue, but

1123
01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:25,320
Speaker 1: somebody else is colluding with the issue, and here it's Becca.

1124
01:06:25,720 --> 01:06:29,400
Speaker 1: Becca really is afraid to take a stand, and while

1125
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:32,040
Speaker 1: it's important that she have empathy for whatever he might

1126
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:36,360
Speaker 1: be dealing with, she's not setting boundaries. And I think

1127
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:40,040
Speaker 1: that it's really important for Becca to look into herself. Becca,

1128
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:44,120
Speaker 1: if you're listening, to think about what boundaries you want

1129
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:48,600
Speaker 1: to set for yourself, because it takes two to work

1130
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:49,800
Speaker 1: on a problem like this.

1131
01:06:55,080 --> 01:06:57,600
Speaker 2: Next week we're going to check in with Nicole from

1132
01:06:57,680 --> 01:06:59,640
Speaker 2: season two to hear how she's doing.

1133
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:04,520
Speaker 3: Later, she was basically saying, I can't be with him anymore.

1134
01:07:04,640 --> 01:07:07,080
Speaker 3: I don't even like him anymore. I don't think i'm

1135
01:07:07,080 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 3: in love with him. I don't even want to have

1136
01:07:08,600 --> 01:07:09,560
Speaker 3: sex with them anymore.

1137
01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:13,640
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for

1138
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:16,600
Speaker 1: free so that you don't miss any episodes, and please

1139
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:19,320
Speaker 1: help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it

1140
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:22,800
Speaker 1: and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really

1141
01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:24,040
Speaker 1: help people to find the show.

1142
01:07:25,040 --> 01:07:27,200
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us.

1143
01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:32,080
Speaker 2: Email us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

1144
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:36,960
Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

1145
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:41,680
Speaker 2: by Josh Fisher. Additional editing support by Helena Rosen, John

1146
01:07:41,880 --> 01:07:46,760
Speaker 2: Washington and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily

1147
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:51,080
Speaker 2: Gutierrez and Silver Lifton. And special thanks to our podcast

1148
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 2: Fairy Godmother Katie Curic. You can't wait to see you

1149
01:07:54,520 --> 01:07:58,040
Speaker 2: at our next session. Deo Therapist is a production of

1150
01:07:58,120 --> 01:07:58,880
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio

1151
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:07,479
Speaker 4: Fish Food