WEBVTT - How UK Courts Became the New Climate Protest Battleground 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.800 Direct action is not a new idea. We've talked in 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:06.960 previous episodes in this season about how it was used 0:00:07.000 --> 0:00:10.920 by the Suffragettes by various civil rights movements, and it's 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:15.400 not new to climate or other environmental issues either. Probably 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:18.280 the best known organization when it comes to these sorts 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:22.200 of tactics in the environmental space is green Peace. From 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:27.080 blocking whaling boats to locking onto offshore platforms, Greenpeace activists 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:29.800 have been putting their bodies in the way of environmental 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:31.280 harms for decades. 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:35.720 Six Greenpeace activists are on trial in front of a 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:39.120 jury at Maidstone Crown Called for causing thirty thousand pounds worth. 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:41.040 Of damage to the King's North Power station. 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:43.519 There was a very real danger, according to our lawyers, 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:45.040 that we would go to jail. 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:47.320 I mean this is from a short video that was 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:51.400 made documenting an action in the UK in two thousand 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:54.560 and eight. But when they got their day in court, 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:56.840 the activists made a novel argument. 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:00.480 They argued their actions were justified because they were trying 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:02.520 to highlight the dangers of climate change. 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:05.679 There was a lawful excuse that the harm we caused 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:09.479 by the damage of painting was insignificant compared with the 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:12.559 emissions from Kings North for that one day. 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:15.559 Alone, and the moments when the jury became most engaged 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:21.080 was when the witnesses, the defendants or the scientific witnesses 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:23.680 were talking about the effects of climate change on our 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:26.960 kids and on our grandchildren. As suddenly, I think it 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:29.679 put our actions into a different context that made them 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:32.319 look quite frankly proportionate and reasonable. 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:34.880 And it worked. It was the first time that what's 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:38.960 called a climate necessity defense had worked, and it sparked 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:42.200 lots of similar defenses all over the world. 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:44.920 It's verdict. We think mark's a tipping point for the 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:48.840 climate change movement. When twelve normal people say that it 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:51.920 is legitimate for a direct action group to shut down 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:54.680 a coal fire power station because of the harm that 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:57.280 it does to the planet, then one has to ask 0:01:57.560 --> 0:02:00.760 where exactly that leaves government energy call us same. 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:04.560 Then. 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:08.360 Just about a decade later, the UK government passed new 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:13.160 laws that not only restricted what protesters could do, but 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:17.440 also how protesters were allowed to defend themselves in court. 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:23.280 Some judges don't apply the new laws so strictly, but 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:26.840 others have held people in contempt for just trying to 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:32.320 explain themselves. In some courtrooms, the climate necesspe defense has 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:36.919 been effectively outlawed. How did that happen and how did 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:42.079 it happen so quickly? That's our story today. After the break, 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:45.640 reporter Isabella Kaminski joins us from the UK with a 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:49.359 story about the backlash against climate protest and how an 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:55.960 obscure law from the sixteen hundreds might be activist best hope. 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:59.080 She also wrote a piece for our website on this topic. 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:03.560 You can find that at Drilled dot Media. I'm Ami 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:12.800 Westervelt and this is Drilled the Real free Speech Threat. 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:19.600 My name is Isabella Kaminski, and I'm a freelance journalist 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:23.280 based in the UK who specializes in environment and climate change. 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:27.240 So, Isabella, from your reporting and also just from kind 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:30.920 of watching things unfold from Afar, it seems to me 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:34.760 like there's been a pretty significant shift in the UK 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:38.880 government's approach to protests in a fairly short amount of time. 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:41.800 But I'm curious if that dives with what you found 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:43.040 as well. 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:45.800 Yeah, so I think it's worth going back to two 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:48.920 thousand and eight, when energy firm Ion was trying to 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:51.640 build the UK's first new core fired power station in 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:54.480 twenty years, and it wanted to do that at Kings 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:56.520 North in the south of England, because there was already 0:03:56.560 --> 0:03:59.960 an old power station there and that became the follow 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:03.440 called focal point for climate activists at the time. And 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:06.720 so one day that year, six Greenpeace activists climbed up 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:09.640 one of the station's smokestacks, these these two hundred meters 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.240 high chimneys, and tried to shut it down by occupying 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:15.120 it and painting on it. So they were arrested and 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:17.000 they had to go to court where they made this 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:19.800 really novel argument that they had a lawful. 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:21.600 Excuse for what they'd done because. 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:24.360 The damage caused protect other people's property from the effects 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:28.200 of climate change, and the jury acquitted them. That at 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:32.120 the time made the New York Times' list of top 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:35.600 influential ideas for the year. It helped the government firm 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:38.919 its climate commitments. Later that same year, the UK passed 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:41.320 into law the Climate Change Act. You know, you can't 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:44.960 necessarily make a direct link, but everything's helped shift the conversation. 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:48.200 Eon then also abandoned the plan to build more coal. 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:52.160 King's North was actually demolished, and the UK now generates 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:55.479 only a tiny proportion of its actristy from coal, but 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:59.680 a decade later, government and action on climate change was stalling. 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:01.800 An activist that started talking to. 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:05.000 Each other more and looking really intensively at how they 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:08.920 could harness this idea of nonviolent direct action to change 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:12.040 the conversation, and out of that, Extinction Rebellion was born. 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:18.240 I'm doctor Gail Bradbrook. I'm one of the co founders 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:19.479 of Extinction Rebellion. 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:24.800 Before co founding Extinction Rebellion in twenty eighteen, Bradbrook had 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:28.719 spent several years getting involved in various environmental and social 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:33.120 justice fights. Isabella visited her at her home in Stroud, 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:36.320 a small town in the picture as Cotswolds Hills in 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:39.640 southern England, in the fall of twenty twenty three to 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:41.080 get more of her story. 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:44.040 It was part of the Animal Riots group at university. 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:46.040 I sort of got involved in green politics as well, 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:47.640 but have to add it, you know, my dad's a 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:50.239 coal miners from the working class background, sort of bounced 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:53.599 off the middle class by without realizing that's what was 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:56.719 going off for me, no disrespect. 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:56.720 To the people. 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:01.840 Eventually, Bradbrook got her PhD in malch biology. She says 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:04.440 she found it difficult to be a working class woman 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:07.840 in science and ultimately made her way back to social 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:12.000 justice work, mostly working with NGOs, and it was. 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:14.360 Really helpful and that it helped me to learn about 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:18.960 strategy and partnerships and fundraising and a whole cletter of like, 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:21.520 you know, program delivery type stuff. And at the same 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:24.440 time it makes it quite clear that you know, NGOs 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:26.320 are generally part of the problem more than part. 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:26.680 Of the solution. 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:29.160 And then I did some cal street school economics. Is 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:31.600 a video still a wreckicking round of that. I was 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:34.000 trying to teach people economics on the streets because I 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:36.880 think we're all kept ignorant eomics. 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:40.560 And yes, we did find that video. Here's a little 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:43.960 bit from it. This is from twenty thirteen and bradbrook 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:46.479 is standing in front of a bunch of handmade science. 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:50.520 One of them reads, remember the Golden Rule. Those with 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:52.520 the gold make the rules. 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:56.000 I feel really honored to share this evening with you. 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:00.760 My concern is economic literacy. What do we know and 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:04.720 understand about economics? And so tonight I want to do 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:08.120 two things. Really to talk about economics, and for me, 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:11.720 that's about showing the connection between different issues and maybe 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:15.600 things that you already know about, like debt or inequality 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:18.120 or you know, peak oil or whatever. But how do 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:21.640 these things link up. That's the thing that I felt 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:24.520 confused about and wanted some clarity around. So I wanted 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:27.320 to share where I've got to on that. And then 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:30.480 the second thing is to talk about talking about economics, 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:33.520 so you know, I really believe we can't leave economics 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:34.400 to economists. 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:36.840 At this point in time, Bradbrook was working with the 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:41.800 Tax Justice movement and participating in mass actions around wealth inequality, 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:47.480 mostly tax strikes, and then she had an experience. It 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:50.640 put her on the path to connecting with Roger Hallam, 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:54.679 an organic farmer whose land had been destroyed by extreme weather. 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:58.280 Hallam was studying for a PhD at King's College, London, 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:02.960 researching social change and the history of social movements. Their 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:05.720 meeting has sort of become the stuff of legends in 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:07.400 climate spieces. 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:13.160 You probably know this sort of slightly weird story of 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:15.560 going off and praying with psychedelics. That did happen, and 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:18.960 it was all very profound. Wasn't the first time I 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:21.000 worked with those medicines that there was a depth there 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:24.600 and the prayers were answered. I met Roger Hallam. He 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:27.480 was doing similar and different research that was complimentary, and 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:30.800 we had this big meeting and then started gathering energy 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:34.320 around you know, social change movement, which originally was called 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:38.120 Compassionate Revolution rebranded Rising Up and then Xile was a 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:38.840 campaign of that. 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:40.960 So is it fair to say that that was about 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:42.560 something broader than climate? 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:46.920 Oh? Definitely, So it can send you the Rising Up original. 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:49.080 Yeah, I mean I remember reading about it that since 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:51.760 when when did climate become the sort of the focus then? 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:54.360 Has it never been entirely? 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:57.640 No? Because for me, it's just it's all part of it. 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:02.720 It's just it's a you know, a symptom of a 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:06.640 wider manaise. It's not the thing. And that is such 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:09.599 a problem in climate activism because obviously people come in 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:12.800 and want to solve climate change and you can't solve 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:14.440 climate change because that's not the problem. 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:15.439 They choose the symptom. 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:19.120 Bradbrough and Hallam didn't just relate to each other. They 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:22.199 were also very compelling for a lot of young activists 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:25.360 who were fed up with the stalled progress on climate 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:29.240 in the UK. And initially they had some really big wins. 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:30.760 Here's Isabella again. 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:35.160 So it had a huge positive impact in about sort 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.640 of less than a year after the activists started having 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:41.240 these conversations, they managed to succeed in getting thousands of 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:43.840 people onto the streets of London in this really really 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:48.360 unprecedented display of climate solidarity. You know, some people were arrested, 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:51.200 but the actions also changed the public and political mood 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:54.720 around climate change. You know, polls show that concern grew. 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:59.000 Parliament later declared climate emergency and the UK set its 0:09:59.000 --> 0:10:01.440 first net SERTI and that was all in the twelve 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:05.160 months after Extinction Rebellion launch, and it also sparked further 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:07.720 protests around the world as well, under the banner of 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:11.520 Extinction Rebellion and through other sort of climate activist groups. 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:16.240 Bradbrooke said she thought that super successful first year was 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:20.480 because Extinction Rebellion's approach was so different, not in terms 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:23.679 of using direct action per se, but something a little 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:26.400 more ephemeroal what I. 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:31.080 Believe created the success into twenty nineteen and it was limited, 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:33.480 but we did smash in climate denial. There was a 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:36.840 spirit that was created. It's off the right hemisphere that 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:39.680 that's the playful side of humanity. That's the side of humanity. 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:43.960 It's visionary and collaborative and together and believes. 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:48.000 In itself, but at the same time it sparked this backlash. 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:50.920 So the same year that the government set that net 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:54.559 zero target, a group called Policy Exchange put out a 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:58.120 report and they called it Extreme Asm Rebellion, and that 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:01.520 report warn that extinction rebellion was a major threat and 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:03.440 so the government had to do something to crack down 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:04.480 on this type of protest. 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:09.000 If you've been listening to this series all along, that 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:15.000 name Policy Exchange might sound familiar. We've mentioned this organization 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:20.079 before because it's an ATLAS Network member think tank. Here 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:24.400 is Richard Walton, a former senior policy fellow at Policy 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:27.800 Exchange and the lead author of the report that Isabella 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:32.080 just mentioned, talking on a podcast shortly after the release 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:36.200 of the report. You'll hear the host first and then Walton. 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:38.400 Mis Walton, thanks for coming on the show. Now. One, 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:41.240 I may support many of their motives. I can't support 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:43.720 the way they act. But they're not really the mafia, 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:45.800 are they. They can't be called an organized crime gang. 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:49.080 Good morning, Good morning, Nick Well. 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:51.559 I mean, there's certainly the behavior that we've seen is 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:56.559 rather typical, but they are certainly engaged in organized criminality 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:59.880 on their LAS scale, and the tactics is one of 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:05.040 civil resistance. Civil resistance model that is based on illegal action. 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:10.400 So I think what we saw of the weekend with 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:15.000 the blockading of the various news print outlets was was 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:18.560 a form of anarchism effectively, it was you know, rather typical. 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:21.520 This is a group that you rejects democracy and the 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:25.079 liberal free mark economy and explicitly seeks to overturn both. 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:31.240 This is something we've talked about in this season too, 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:35.160 this framing of climate activists and particularly those engaging in 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:39.160 direct action as being these scary anarchists. Definitely, that's something 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:43.960 that Atlas Network think tanks in particular have been pushing. Isabella. 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:47.120 Did you see the UK media kind of amplifying that 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:51.560 message too, or any politicians sort of picking up that 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:52.719 threat and running with it. 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:56.920 Yeah, definitely they started to certainly certain sections of the 0:12:56.960 --> 0:12:59.640 media started to repeat the kind of language that was 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:01.880 being you used, and the framing of. 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:03.760 These groups as. 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:06.040 A threat rather than trying to draw attention to a 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:09.840 serious issue. And then it wasn't too much longer before 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:14.040 the UK began actually putting some of this stuff into legislation. 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:18.520 So in twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three, the UK 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:23.079 Parliament passed two really significant pieces of law which gave 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:27.560 law enforcement agencies much greater powers to stop protest tactics 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:32.120 that were considered to be disruptive. Certain aspects of those 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:34.959 laws as they were being developed in parliament, which were 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:38.360 struck down. The government later sort of pushed through through 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:43.960 secondary regulation to try and bypass the parliamentary process. So 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:47.760 these pieces of law have really made it harder for 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:52.240 people to protest and given enforcement authorities, given the police 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:55.920 much greater power to stop it before. 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:57.840 It happens and while people are protesting. 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:01.400 We also know that in the summer of twenty twenty three, 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:05.920 at a policy exchange Garden Party Prime Minister Rishie Sunak 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:09.320 thank the organization for its help with these legislative changes. 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:11.360 I love that it was at a garden party. That 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:15.200 why that makes it so much I don't know, makes 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:17.400 it land so much more so. You wrote in your 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:22.320 story also about not only how these laws have led 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:26.080 to more arrests, but how they've impacted activist core proceedings, 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:28.240 which I think is really really interesting. Can I just 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:30.400 have you kind of walk us through what you found 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:31.480 out on that front? 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:32.560 Yeah? 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:35.880 Sure, So I've been speaking to locked of activists who 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:39.000 have been arrested and have been through the court system, 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:42.000 And the really key thing is here that activists, when 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:45.120 they get to court, whatever the crime they're accused of is, 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:47.720 they want to be able to explain their motivations for 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:50.200 why they did what they did. And for some that's 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:53.560 about getting the issue on the record but talking about 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:56.800 climate change, for example. For others, it's about trying to 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.600 persuade the jury that what they did was proportionate and 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:03.120 that they couldn't be convicted. But judges have discretion in 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:06.320 how they run particular trials in their courts, and that's 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:08.520 led to this really wide variety of. 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:10.320 Different outcomes for protesters. 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:14.000 So in some courts, activists have been given pretty free 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:18.880 reign to explain their motivations for what they did. In 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:22.240 some they've been allowed to use particular legal defenses, so 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:25.880 for example, a necessity that's saying that what they did 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:28.200 was necessary to avoid a greater harm to the planet. 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:31.800 But in others they've been really strictly barred from even 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:35.680 mentioning climate change at all. So I've heard activists describe 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:38.400 this as a justice lottery, with some people being convicted 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:40.440 and going to prison and others found not guilty and 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:43.800 allowed to go home. But at the same time, juries 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:46.320 vary quite a lot, and in many cases they've been 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:49.640 acquitting activists for a whole range of eventss whether or 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:52.720 not they've managed to explain their motivations. So the result 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:55.440 is that not all judges or politicians are very happy 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:58.400 with that situation. And so there's been this growing tension 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:01.400 about how to deal with climate protests in a proportionate way. 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:06.680 And meanwhile climate protesters are quite frustrated that they're being 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:09.560 handled so differently in different parts of the country and 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:11.720 in different courts, even within the same city. 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:17.160 Is there anyone kind of working on just specifically that is, 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:20.360 you like, the inconsistency of things being applied, I mean 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:23.760 that could go well or poorly for activists. I would 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.360 guess that, you know, if someone's like, the judges should 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:29.320 all be implementing this to the letter of the law, 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:33.239 or we should come up with something that's more unifying. 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:34.000 I don't know. 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:37.080 It strikes me as like the classics thing that court 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:40.040 cases exist to do, right is figure out this kind 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:41.960 of inconsistency. 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:44.600 That there are people and I know people who are 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:47.840 tracking with spreadsheets you know what's happening to different people 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:51.400 and different courts, and so some of them have figures 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:55.200 for about half of protesters, for example, being acquitted compared 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.560 to the other half found guilty by jewelies. You're right though, 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:02.880 that absolutely could fire because you could end up in 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:05.159 a situation where the courts actually look and say, well, 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:07.399 we want to apply the strict sentences. 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:08.639 To everybody rather than the most lenient. 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:10.960 So there's two things going on here. 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:15.119 It's protesters feeling that the sentences being handed down to 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:17.600 them are too strong because in some cases the jail 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:21.560 sentences have been hand down have been significantly bigger than 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:25.800 they have been in previous protest trials. That's something actually 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:29.280 the UN is looking at because there is concern about 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:32.359 how the courts have applied this. But in other cases 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:35.480 they're talking about the inconsistency. So there's the tougher sentences 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:37.320 on one hand, and on the others, the lack of 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:41.520 kind of clear guidelines for how to treat these cases. 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:44.480 I think some of these cases are going to the 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:49.200 Court of Appeal, so there might be higher courts deciding 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:51.320 how it can be applied to the lower ones. 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:54.040 But so far there isn't any any guidance on that. 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:59.200 We don't know exactly what discussions have been had, exactly 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.200 what pressures have been but we can see that change 0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:03.919 in charging decisions. 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:09.439 Dr Graham Hayes is a researcher in social movements at 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:10.440 Aston University. 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:14.960 As soon as those changes happen, the ability to defend 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:19.840 yourself in court is much lesser and the penalties are 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:20.480 much greater. 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:25.040 Hayes and his colleague, doctor Stephen Camis, who's an associate 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:28.680 law professor at the University of Birmingham, have been tracking 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:32.080 what's happening in the courts ever since the UK passed 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:36.480 its new protest laws in twenty nineteen. Doctor Gail Bradbrooke, 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:39.640 the Extinction Rebellion co founder that you heard from earlier 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:42.879 in this episode, was arrested for breaking a window in 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:46.639 a government building during a protest. She just went to 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:49.440 trial in twenty twenty three, and the judge in her 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:53.400 trial refused to let her explain why she was protesting 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:57.119 in the first place. The judge repeatedly warned her to 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:00.480 stop speaking when she disobeyed that order, and told the 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:02.800 jury to disregard what she was saying. 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.920 So in that context, thinking about Gail Bradbroock's stile and 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:11.080 the judges warning that if she continued to overstep the 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:13.520 bounds that he'd set, that he could move to a 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:14.520 judge only trial. 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:16.160 I mean, am I right that that. 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:19.800 Provision was designed to address jury intimidation sort of in 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:21.840 the context of serious organized trick crime. 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:23.760 Is that why that was developed in the first place? 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:27.600 These two free criminal justice actor exactly and it was 0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:28.960 finally contentious of the time. 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:35.639 And another thing that came up in your piece that 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:38.919 was new to me as a non UK listener was 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:43.240 this idea of jury nullification. And I think it's interesting 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:46.000 sort of the role that this concept is playing in 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:49.399 these cases and especially around the car proceedings. Can I 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:53.040 have you kind of define that for folks who are 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:54.560 tuning in from outside the UK. 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:58.640 Sure, this is a really fascinating idea. So it refers 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:02.360 to this key legal idea which actually dates back at 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:06.480 five hundred years and in sixteen seventy, jurors in a 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:09.120 particular case were ordered by a judge to find two 0:20:09.200 --> 0:20:14.159 Quakers guilty of illegal preaching. So the jury, led by 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:18.479 a man called Edward Bushell, refused and they were jailed 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:22.880 and fined until a court eventually cleared them. That case 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:27.960 has now become the sort of celebrated principle of religious 0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:31.600 and political freedom, and the resulting principle is known as 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:36.080 during nullification. The idea is that juries can clear people 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:40.960 based on their consciences. And in fact, in the Old Bailey, 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:43.440 which is the central criminal court of England and Wales 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:46.680 in London, it's actually engraved onto our marble plaque there. 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:48.280 That's how important this idea is. 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:52.800 But in response to what's been happening in some of 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:58.239 the cases against climate protesters in court, a sixty eight 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:01.760 year old woman stood outside one of the courts and 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:06.000 she'd written this principle of during nullification onto a cardboard sign. 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:09.159 So she wrote, jurors, you have an absolute right to 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:12.240 a quit a defendant according to your conscience. The judge 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:14.800 in that case, where he was taking a trial of 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:19.399 some climate protesters, was not happy. He felt that the 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:22.679 lady Trudy Warner was trying to interfere with the jury, 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:27.600 and he referred her for contempt of court, essentially that 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:31.840 she was trying to sway the jury into making a 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:33.080 particular kind of decision. 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:36.840 So when Trudy next went back to court. 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:40.439 He ordered her to be arrested, and she was later 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:46.400 charged with contempt of court. Trudy's arrest then sparked lots 0:21:46.440 --> 0:21:50.080 of other people to do similar things, so they started 0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:55.640 standing outside court with very similar signs reminding. 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:56.920 Juries that they have to acquit. 0:21:57.080 --> 0:22:00.920 There's been a sort of series of escalating protests, from 0:22:01.200 --> 0:22:04.040 a handful of people to over two hundred, and at 0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:08.720 the latest count in December, more than five hundred people 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:12.560 stood outside around fifty courts in the UK holding up 0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:16.600 very similar signs reminding juries of this key legal principle. 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:20.880 A couple of people have also been charged, but most 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:24.640