1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: Direct action is not a new idea. We've talked in 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: previous episodes in this season about how it was used 3 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: by the Suffragettes by various civil rights movements, and it's 4 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: not new to climate or other environmental issues either. Probably 5 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: the best known organization when it comes to these sorts 6 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: of tactics in the environmental space is green Peace. From 7 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: blocking whaling boats to locking onto offshore platforms, Greenpeace activists 8 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: have been putting their bodies in the way of environmental 9 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: harms for decades. 10 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 2: Six Greenpeace activists are on trial in front of a 11 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 2: jury at Maidstone Crown Called for causing thirty thousand pounds worth. 12 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 3: Of damage to the King's North Power station. 13 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 4: There was a very real danger, according to our lawyers, 14 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 4: that we would go to jail. 15 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: I mean this is from a short video that was 16 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: made documenting an action in the UK in two thousand 17 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: and eight. But when they got their day in court, 18 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: the activists made a novel argument. 19 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 5: They argued their actions were justified because they were trying 20 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 5: to highlight the dangers of climate change. 21 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 2: There was a lawful excuse that the harm we caused 22 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,479 Speaker 2: by the damage of painting was insignificant compared with the 23 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,559 Speaker 2: emissions from Kings North for that one day. 24 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,559 Speaker 4: Alone, and the moments when the jury became most engaged 25 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 4: was when the witnesses, the defendants or the scientific witnesses 26 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 4: were talking about the effects of climate change on our 27 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 4: kids and on our grandchildren. As suddenly, I think it 28 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 4: put our actions into a different context that made them 29 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 4: look quite frankly proportionate and reasonable. 30 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: And it worked. It was the first time that what's 31 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 1: called a climate necessity defense had worked, and it sparked 32 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: lots of similar defenses all over the world. 33 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 4: It's verdict. We think mark's a tipping point for the 34 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 4: climate change movement. When twelve normal people say that it 35 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 4: is legitimate for a direct action group to shut down 36 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 4: a coal fire power station because of the harm that 37 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 4: it does to the planet, then one has to ask 38 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 4: where exactly that leaves government energy call us same. 39 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 6: Then. 40 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 1: Just about a decade later, the UK government passed new 41 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: laws that not only restricted what protesters could do, but 42 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: also how protesters were allowed to defend themselves in court. 43 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: Some judges don't apply the new laws so strictly, but 44 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: others have held people in contempt for just trying to 45 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: explain themselves. In some courtrooms, the climate necesspe defense has 46 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 1: been effectively outlawed. How did that happen and how did 47 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 1: it happen so quickly? That's our story today. After the break, 48 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 1: reporter Isabella Kaminski joins us from the UK with a 49 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,359 Speaker 1: story about the backlash against climate protest and how an 50 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: obscure law from the sixteen hundreds might be activist best hope. 51 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 1: She also wrote a piece for our website on this topic. 52 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: You can find that at Drilled dot Media. I'm Ami 53 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: Westervelt and this is Drilled the Real free Speech Threat. 54 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 7: My name is Isabella Kaminski, and I'm a freelance journalist 55 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 7: based in the UK who specializes in environment and climate change. 56 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: So, Isabella, from your reporting and also just from kind 57 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 1: of watching things unfold from Afar, it seems to me 58 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: like there's been a pretty significant shift in the UK 59 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: government's approach to protests in a fairly short amount of time. 60 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: But I'm curious if that dives with what you found 61 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: as well. 62 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 7: Yeah, so I think it's worth going back to two 63 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 7: thousand and eight, when energy firm Ion was trying to 64 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 7: build the UK's first new core fired power station in 65 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 7: twenty years, and it wanted to do that at Kings 66 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 7: North in the south of England, because there was already 67 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 7: an old power station there and that became the follow 68 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 7: called focal point for climate activists at the time. And 69 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 7: so one day that year, six Greenpeace activists climbed up 70 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 7: one of the station's smokestacks, these these two hundred meters 71 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 7: high chimneys, and tried to shut it down by occupying 72 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 7: it and painting on it. So they were arrested and 73 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 7: they had to go to court where they made this 74 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 7: really novel argument that they had a lawful. 75 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 6: Excuse for what they'd done because. 76 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 7: The damage caused protect other people's property from the effects 77 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 7: of climate change, and the jury acquitted them. That at 78 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 7: the time made the New York Times' list of top 79 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 7: influential ideas for the year. It helped the government firm 80 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 7: its climate commitments. Later that same year, the UK passed 81 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 7: into law the Climate Change Act. You know, you can't 82 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 7: necessarily make a direct link, but everything's helped shift the conversation. 83 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 7: Eon then also abandoned the plan to build more coal. 84 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 7: King's North was actually demolished, and the UK now generates 85 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 7: only a tiny proportion of its actristy from coal, but 86 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 7: a decade later, government and action on climate change was stalling. 87 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 6: An activist that started talking to. 88 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 7: Each other more and looking really intensively at how they 89 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 7: could harness this idea of nonviolent direct action to change 90 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 7: the conversation, and out of that, Extinction Rebellion was born. 91 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 3: I'm doctor Gail Bradbrook. I'm one of the co founders 92 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 3: of Extinction Rebellion. 93 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: Before co founding Extinction Rebellion in twenty eighteen, Bradbrook had 94 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 1: spent several years getting involved in various environmental and social 95 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: justice fights. Isabella visited her at her home in Stroud, 96 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: a small town in the picture as Cotswolds Hills in 97 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: southern England, in the fall of twenty twenty three to 98 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: get more of her story. 99 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 3: It was part of the Animal Riots group at university. 100 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 3: I sort of got involved in green politics as well, 101 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 3: but have to add it, you know, my dad's a 102 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,239 Speaker 3: coal miners from the working class background, sort of bounced 103 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 3: off the middle class by without realizing that's what was 104 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 3: going off for me, no disrespect. 105 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 6: To the people. 106 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 1: Eventually, Bradbrook got her PhD in malch biology. She says 107 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: she found it difficult to be a working class woman 108 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 1: in science and ultimately made her way back to social 109 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: justice work, mostly working with NGOs, and it was. 110 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 3: Really helpful and that it helped me to learn about 111 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 3: strategy and partnerships and fundraising and a whole cletter of like, 112 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 3: you know, program delivery type stuff. And at the same 113 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 3: time it makes it quite clear that you know, NGOs 114 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 3: are generally part of the problem more than part. 115 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 6: Of the solution. 116 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 3: And then I did some cal street school economics. Is 117 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 3: a video still a wreckicking round of that. I was 118 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 3: trying to teach people economics on the streets because I 119 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 3: think we're all kept ignorant eomics. 120 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: And yes, we did find that video. Here's a little 121 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: bit from it. This is from twenty thirteen and bradbrook 122 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 1: is standing in front of a bunch of handmade science. 123 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: One of them reads, remember the Golden Rule. Those with 124 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: the gold make the rules. 125 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 3: I feel really honored to share this evening with you. 126 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 3: My concern is economic literacy. What do we know and 127 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 3: understand about economics? And so tonight I want to do 128 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 3: two things. Really to talk about economics, and for me, 129 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 3: that's about showing the connection between different issues and maybe 130 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 3: things that you already know about, like debt or inequality 131 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 3: or you know, peak oil or whatever. But how do 132 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 3: these things link up. That's the thing that I felt 133 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 3: confused about and wanted some clarity around. So I wanted 134 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 3: to share where I've got to on that. And then 135 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 3: the second thing is to talk about talking about economics, 136 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 3: so you know, I really believe we can't leave economics 137 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 3: to economists. 138 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: At this point in time, Bradbrook was working with the 139 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: Tax Justice movement and participating in mass actions around wealth inequality, 140 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: mostly tax strikes, and then she had an experience. It 141 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: put her on the path to connecting with Roger Hallam, 142 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,679 Speaker 1: an organic farmer whose land had been destroyed by extreme weather. 143 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: Hallam was studying for a PhD at King's College, London, 144 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: researching social change and the history of social movements. Their 145 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: meeting has sort of become the stuff of legends in 146 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: climate spieces. 147 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 3: You probably know this sort of slightly weird story of 148 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 3: going off and praying with psychedelics. That did happen, and 149 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 3: it was all very profound. Wasn't the first time I 150 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 3: worked with those medicines that there was a depth there 151 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 3: and the prayers were answered. I met Roger Hallam. He 152 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 3: was doing similar and different research that was complimentary, and 153 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 3: we had this big meeting and then started gathering energy 154 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 3: around you know, social change movement, which originally was called 155 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 3: Compassionate Revolution rebranded Rising Up and then Xile was a 156 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 3: campaign of that. 157 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 7: So is it fair to say that that was about 158 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 7: something broader than climate? 159 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 3: Oh? Definitely, So it can send you the Rising Up original. 160 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean I remember reading about it that since 161 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 7: when when did climate become the sort of the focus then? 162 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 6: Has it never been entirely? 163 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 3: No? Because for me, it's just it's all part of it. 164 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 3: It's just it's a you know, a symptom of a 165 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 3: wider manaise. It's not the thing. And that is such 166 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,599 Speaker 3: a problem in climate activism because obviously people come in 167 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 3: and want to solve climate change and you can't solve 168 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 3: climate change because that's not the problem. 169 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 8: They choose the symptom. 170 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: Bradbrough and Hallam didn't just relate to each other. They 171 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,199 Speaker 1: were also very compelling for a lot of young activists 172 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: who were fed up with the stalled progress on climate 173 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: in the UK. And initially they had some really big wins. 174 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: Here's Isabella again. 175 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 7: So it had a huge positive impact in about sort 176 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 7: of less than a year after the activists started having 177 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 7: these conversations, they managed to succeed in getting thousands of 178 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 7: people onto the streets of London in this really really 179 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 7: unprecedented display of climate solidarity. You know, some people were arrested, 180 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 7: but the actions also changed the public and political mood 181 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 7: around climate change. You know, polls show that concern grew. 182 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 7: Parliament later declared climate emergency and the UK set its 183 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 7: first net SERTI and that was all in the twelve 184 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 7: months after Extinction Rebellion launch, and it also sparked further 185 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 7: protests around the world as well, under the banner of 186 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 7: Extinction Rebellion and through other sort of climate activist groups. 187 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: Bradbrooke said she thought that super successful first year was 188 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: because Extinction Rebellion's approach was so different, not in terms 189 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 1: of using direct action per se, but something a little 190 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: more ephemeroal what I. 191 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 3: Believe created the success into twenty nineteen and it was limited, 192 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 3: but we did smash in climate denial. There was a 193 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 3: spirit that was created. It's off the right hemisphere that 194 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 3: that's the playful side of humanity. That's the side of humanity. 195 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 3: It's visionary and collaborative and together and believes. 196 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 7: In itself, but at the same time it sparked this backlash. 197 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 7: So the same year that the government set that net 198 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 7: zero target, a group called Policy Exchange put out a 199 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 7: report and they called it Extreme Asm Rebellion, and that 200 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 7: report warn that extinction rebellion was a major threat and 201 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 7: so the government had to do something to crack down 202 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 7: on this type of protest. 203 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: If you've been listening to this series all along, that 204 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: name Policy Exchange might sound familiar. We've mentioned this organization 205 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:20,079 Speaker 1: before because it's an ATLAS Network member think tank. Here 206 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: is Richard Walton, a former senior policy fellow at Policy 207 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: Exchange and the lead author of the report that Isabella 208 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: just mentioned, talking on a podcast shortly after the release 209 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: of the report. You'll hear the host first and then Walton. 210 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 2: Mis Walton, thanks for coming on the show. Now. One, 211 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 2: I may support many of their motives. I can't support 212 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 2: the way they act. But they're not really the mafia, 213 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 2: are they. They can't be called an organized crime gang. 214 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 2: Good morning, Good morning, Nick Well. 215 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,559 Speaker 9: I mean, there's certainly the behavior that we've seen is 216 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:56,559 Speaker 9: rather typical, but they are certainly engaged in organized criminality 217 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 9: on their LAS scale, and the tactics is one of 218 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 9: civil resistance. Civil resistance model that is based on illegal action. 219 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 9: So I think what we saw of the weekend with 220 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 9: the blockading of the various news print outlets was was 221 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 9: a form of anarchism effectively, it was you know, rather typical. 222 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 9: This is a group that you rejects democracy and the 223 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,079 Speaker 9: liberal free mark economy and explicitly seeks to overturn both. 224 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: This is something we've talked about in this season too, 225 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: this framing of climate activists and particularly those engaging in 226 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: direct action as being these scary anarchists. Definitely, that's something 227 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: that Atlas Network think tanks in particular have been pushing. Isabella. 228 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: Did you see the UK media kind of amplifying that 229 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 1: message too, or any politicians sort of picking up that 230 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:52,719 Speaker 1: threat and running with it. 231 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 7: Yeah, definitely they started to certainly certain sections of the 232 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 7: media started to repeat the kind of language that was 233 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 7: being you used, and the framing of. 234 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 6: These groups as. 235 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 7: A threat rather than trying to draw attention to a 236 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 7: serious issue. And then it wasn't too much longer before 237 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 7: the UK began actually putting some of this stuff into legislation. 238 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 7: So in twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three, the UK 239 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:23,079 Speaker 7: Parliament passed two really significant pieces of law which gave 240 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 7: law enforcement agencies much greater powers to stop protest tactics 241 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 7: that were considered to be disruptive. Certain aspects of those 242 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:34,959 Speaker 7: laws as they were being developed in parliament, which were 243 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 7: struck down. The government later sort of pushed through through 244 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 7: secondary regulation to try and bypass the parliamentary process. So 245 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 7: these pieces of law have really made it harder for 246 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 7: people to protest and given enforcement authorities, given the police 247 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 7: much greater power to stop it before. 248 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 8: It happens and while people are protesting. 249 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 7: We also know that in the summer of twenty twenty three, 250 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 7: at a policy exchange Garden Party Prime Minister Rishie Sunak 251 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 7: thank the organization for its help with these legislative changes. 252 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: I love that it was at a garden party. That 253 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: why that makes it so much I don't know, makes 254 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: it land so much more so. You wrote in your 255 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: story also about not only how these laws have led 256 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: to more arrests, but how they've impacted activist core proceedings, 257 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: which I think is really really interesting. Can I just 258 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: have you kind of walk us through what you found 259 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 1: out on that front? 260 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 6: Yeah? 261 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 7: Sure, So I've been speaking to locked of activists who 262 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 7: have been arrested and have been through the court system, 263 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 7: And the really key thing is here that activists, when 264 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 7: they get to court, whatever the crime they're accused of is, 265 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 7: they want to be able to explain their motivations for 266 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 7: why they did what they did. And for some that's 267 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 7: about getting the issue on the record but talking about 268 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 7: climate change, for example. For others, it's about trying to 269 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 7: persuade the jury that what they did was proportionate and 270 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 7: that they couldn't be convicted. But judges have discretion in 271 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 7: how they run particular trials in their courts, and that's 272 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 7: led to this really wide variety of. 273 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 8: Different outcomes for protesters. 274 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 7: So in some courts, activists have been given pretty free 275 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 7: reign to explain their motivations for what they did. In 276 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 7: some they've been allowed to use particular legal defenses, so 277 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 7: for example, a necessity that's saying that what they did 278 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 7: was necessary to avoid a greater harm to the planet. 279 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 7: But in others they've been really strictly barred from even 280 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 7: mentioning climate change at all. So I've heard activists describe 281 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 7: this as a justice lottery, with some people being convicted 282 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 7: and going to prison and others found not guilty and 283 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 7: allowed to go home. But at the same time, juries 284 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 7: vary quite a lot, and in many cases they've been 285 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 7: acquitting activists for a whole range of eventss whether or 286 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 7: not they've managed to explain their motivations. So the result 287 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 7: is that not all judges or politicians are very happy 288 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 7: with that situation. And so there's been this growing tension 289 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 7: about how to deal with climate protests in a proportionate way. 290 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 7: And meanwhile climate protesters are quite frustrated that they're being 291 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 7: handled so differently in different parts of the country and 292 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 7: in different courts, even within the same city. 293 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: Is there anyone kind of working on just specifically that is, 294 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: you like, the inconsistency of things being applied, I mean 295 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: that could go well or poorly for activists. I would 296 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: guess that, you know, if someone's like, the judges should 297 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: all be implementing this to the letter of the law, 298 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:33,239 Speaker 1: or we should come up with something that's more unifying. 299 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 8: I don't know. 300 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: It strikes me as like the classics thing that court 301 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: cases exist to do, right is figure out this kind 302 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: of inconsistency. 303 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 7: That there are people and I know people who are 304 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 7: tracking with spreadsheets you know what's happening to different people 305 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 7: and different courts, and so some of them have figures 306 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 7: for about half of protesters, for example, being acquitted compared 307 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 7: to the other half found guilty by jewelies. You're right though, 308 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 7: that absolutely could fire because you could end up in 309 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 7: a situation where the courts actually look and say, well, 310 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 7: we want to apply the strict sentences. 311 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 8: To everybody rather than the most lenient. 312 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 6: So there's two things going on here. 313 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 7: It's protesters feeling that the sentences being handed down to 314 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 7: them are too strong because in some cases the jail 315 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 7: sentences have been hand down have been significantly bigger than 316 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 7: they have been in previous protest trials. That's something actually 317 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 7: the UN is looking at because there is concern about 318 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 7: how the courts have applied this. But in other cases 319 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 7: they're talking about the inconsistency. So there's the tougher sentences 320 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 7: on one hand, and on the others, the lack of 321 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 7: kind of clear guidelines for how to treat these cases. 322 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 7: I think some of these cases are going to the 323 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 7: Court of Appeal, so there might be higher courts deciding 324 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 7: how it can be applied to the lower ones. 325 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 8: But so far there isn't any any guidance on that. 326 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 10: We don't know exactly what discussions have been had, exactly 327 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 10: what pressures have been but we can see that change 328 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 10: in charging decisions. 329 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 7: Dr Graham Hayes is a researcher in social movements at 330 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 7: Aston University. 331 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 10: As soon as those changes happen, the ability to defend 332 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 10: yourself in court is much lesser and the penalties are 333 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 10: much greater. 334 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: Hayes and his colleague, doctor Stephen Camis, who's an associate 335 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 1: law professor at the University of Birmingham, have been tracking 336 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: what's happening in the courts ever since the UK passed 337 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: its new protest laws in twenty nineteen. Doctor Gail Bradbrooke, 338 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 1: the Extinction Rebellion co founder that you heard from earlier 339 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: in this episode, was arrested for breaking a window in 340 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 1: a government building during a protest. She just went to 341 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 1: trial in twenty twenty three, and the judge in her 342 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 1: trial refused to let her explain why she was protesting 343 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 1: in the first place. The judge repeatedly warned her to 344 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: stop speaking when she disobeyed that order, and told the 345 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: jury to disregard what she was saying. 346 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 11: So in that context, thinking about Gail Bradbroock's stile and 347 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 11: the judges warning that if she continued to overstep the 348 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 11: bounds that he'd set, that he could move to a 349 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 11: judge only trial. 350 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 6: I mean, am I right that that. 351 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 11: Provision was designed to address jury intimidation sort of in 352 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 11: the context of serious organized trick crime. 353 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 7: Is that why that was developed in the first place? 354 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 3: These two free criminal justice actor exactly and it was 355 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 3: finally contentious of the time. 356 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 1: And another thing that came up in your piece that 357 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 1: was new to me as a non UK listener was 358 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: this idea of jury nullification. And I think it's interesting 359 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: sort of the role that this concept is playing in 360 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: these cases and especially around the car proceedings. Can I 361 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: have you kind of define that for folks who are 362 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: tuning in from outside the UK. 363 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 7: Sure, this is a really fascinating idea. So it refers 364 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,360 Speaker 7: to this key legal idea which actually dates back at 365 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 7: five hundred years and in sixteen seventy, jurors in a 366 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 7: particular case were ordered by a judge to find two 367 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 7: Quakers guilty of illegal preaching. So the jury, led by 368 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:18,479 Speaker 7: a man called Edward Bushell, refused and they were jailed 369 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 7: and fined until a court eventually cleared them. That case 370 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 7: has now become the sort of celebrated principle of religious 371 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 7: and political freedom, and the resulting principle is known as 372 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 7: during nullification. The idea is that juries can clear people 373 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 7: based on their consciences. And in fact, in the Old Bailey, 374 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 7: which is the central criminal court of England and Wales 375 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 7: in London, it's actually engraved onto our marble plaque there. 376 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 8: That's how important this idea is. 377 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 7: But in response to what's been happening in some of 378 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:58,239 Speaker 7: the cases against climate protesters in court, a sixty eight 379 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 7: year old woman stood outside one of the courts and 380 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 7: she'd written this principle of during nullification onto a cardboard sign. 381 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 7: So she wrote, jurors, you have an absolute right to 382 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 7: a quit a defendant according to your conscience. The judge 383 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 7: in that case, where he was taking a trial of 384 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 7: some climate protesters, was not happy. He felt that the 385 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,679 Speaker 7: lady Trudy Warner was trying to interfere with the jury, 386 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 7: and he referred her for contempt of court, essentially that 387 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 7: she was trying to sway the jury into making a 388 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 7: particular kind of decision. 389 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 6: So when Trudy next went back to court. 390 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,439 Speaker 7: He ordered her to be arrested, and she was later 391 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:46,400 Speaker 7: charged with contempt of court. Trudy's arrest then sparked lots 392 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 7: of other people to do similar things, so they started 393 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 7: standing outside court with very similar signs reminding. 394 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 6: Juries that they have to acquit. 395 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 7: There's been a sort of series of escalating protests, from 396 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 7: a handful of people to over two hundred, and at 397 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 7: the latest count in December, more than five hundred people 398 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 7: stood outside around fifty courts in the UK holding up 399 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 7: very similar signs reminding juries of this key legal principle. 400 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,880 Speaker 7: A couple of people have also been charged, but most 401 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 7: of those protesters have not had any kind of haven't 402 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 7: had their details taken, and haven't had any. 403 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 8: Kind of legal consequences for doing that. 404 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:34,360 Speaker 7: But it's led to this growing row about what is proportionate. 405 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 10: I think until we get ruling in the Trudy Warner case, 406 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 10: we won't exactly know how this will be dealt with 407 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 10: from there onwards. I just think we have probably have 408 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 10: to wait and see. I think what I would say 409 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 10: is that judges have different personalities and they use contempt 410 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 10: of the threat of contempt of the threat of imprisonment 411 00:22:55,520 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 10: in order to demonstrate their authority in the courtroom, and 412 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 10: you regularly see some judges threaten prison to defendants to 413 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 10: keep them in. 414 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 7: Light, so that people who have had legal repercussions are 415 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 7: truly warner. And two young women, all of them are 416 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 7: being charged with contempt. I haven't spoken to them directly 417 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 7: on the record because they're going through this legal process. 418 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 7: I have spoken to three generations of one family who 419 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 7: were some of the protesters outside one of the courts. 420 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 7: They were very passionate about why they were doing this. 421 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 7: For them, it was about much more than climate change, 422 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 7: although that was super important. This was about a really 423 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 7: important fundamental principle of essentially freedom of speech. 424 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 6: So what is your name? 425 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 5: I'm real Lais Slater, I'm Sarah McDonald, I'm Vivia McDonald, 426 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,919 Speaker 5: and your three generations of the same family, right, and 427 00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 5: so why have you come to Bristol Crown Court today? 428 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 5: Really to stand up for the rights of life? Actually 429 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 5: that's for me, to stand up for life. I've done 430 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 5: a lot of climate activism and I've taken part in 431 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 5: the actions against the aggressive police Crime Sentencing Bill. 432 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 6: What concerns you about those bills? 433 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 11: I think a lot of things per finding about those bills. 434 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 12: I think the plump down on protests really reflects how 435 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 12: the government is trying to and what direction our country 436 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 12: is being taken in in a way to repress people 437 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 12: expressing their opinions and to repress assembly, which has been 438 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 12: throughout history, or way to cultivate change, and I think 439 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 12: clamping down on that really reflects their opinions on not 440 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 12: just the private protest, but like historical protests as well, 441 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 12: and how they have manifested and been brought forwards in 442 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 12: the tradition of cultivating change. It's more important than ever 443 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 12: to continue protesting and to continue fighting for change in 444 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 12: light of how the. 445 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 8: Government is trying to repress it. 446 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the thing that strikes me the most about 447 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: the court preceding stuff is just how you know whether 448 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 1: climate is an issue of that you care about or not, 449 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: or whether you think these protesters are justified or not 450 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: is sort of beside the point. Anytime you're curtailing people's 451 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: ability to defend themselves or curtailing what they're allowed to 452 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: say in their defense, it seems like potentially something that 453 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: folks might be concerned about. 454 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 7: Absolutely, and that's one of the points that protesters are making, 455 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 7: although obviously they want to draw attention to climate change 456 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 7: and for people who've been involved in various kinds of 457 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 7: activism to not go to prison and to be found 458 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 7: not guilt. This is a really fundamental point about allowing 459 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 7: people to express their motivations and giving juries as a 460 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 7: kind of representative example of the public the ability to 461 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 7: make informed decisions about people's actions and about essentially what 462 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 7: is right and wrong. Otherwise you're giving all that power 463 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 7: to a judge, into the judiciary, rather than the people themselves. 464 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: So all of this stuff that you've been talking about 465 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 1: kind of played into Gail Bradbrooks's case as well. 466 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,679 Speaker 7: Yeah, So Gail had two trials, and the first trial, 467 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 7: which was earlier in twenty twenty three, had to be 468 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 7: aborted because she kept talking about her motivations for her actions, 469 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 7: and the judge was really unhappy about that. He basically 470 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 7: refused to let her do so, accused her of tampering 471 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 7: with the jury, and said that the trial would come 472 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 7: to an end and would start again later. In between 473 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 7: her two trials, there were various hearings where she was 474 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 7: trying to negotiate what she was allowed to say. The 475 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:13,360 Speaker 7: extent with which she was allowed to describe her motivations 476 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 7: and talk about climate change, and the judge was really 477 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 7: pushing back on that. He was incredibly limited in how 478 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 7: he allowed her to frame her defense and was basically 479 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 7: striking down any kind of legal defense that she had 480 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 7: to make. So by the time of the second trial, 481 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 7: where there was a fresh jury, she was very technically 482 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 7: restricted and she was defending herself as well. During the 483 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 7: actual case though, she managed to sort of push back 484 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,679 Speaker 7: on quite a bit of it, and the judge was 485 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 7: repeatedly stopping her from talking and reminding her of his 486 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 7: previous rulings, but she did manage to in various ways 487 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 7: get across most of what she wanted to the jury. 488 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 7: The re was well, was not really what she wanted 489 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 7: because she was found guilty. She told me that she 490 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 7: was happy because she had managed to at least explain herself, 491 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 7: which the judge hadn't really wanted her to do in 492 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 7: that case as well. Coming into the court in the morning, 493 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,959 Speaker 7: there were many people sitting outside with the jury nullification 494 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 7: slogans on their placards, which the judge told the jury 495 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 7: that they should sort of, you know, take with a 496 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,959 Speaker 7: bit of pitch of salt so that all these factors 497 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 7: were coming together in this trial of an Extinction Rebellion. 498 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: Founder bradbrook was sentenced to fifteen months in jail, but 499 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: the judge immediately suspended that sentence. She was also given 500 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,719 Speaker 1: a twelvemonth supervision order and one hundred and fifty hours 501 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: of community service. Once the sentencing ended, Bradbrooke released her 502 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: seventy five page dossier of evidence, all the stuff the 503 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: judge had said she couldn't use to defend herself, and 504 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 1: she criticized the judicial system for both its inconsistency and 505 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: for curtailing people's ability to defend themselves. In a press 506 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: statement that Extinction Rebellion sent out, Bradbrokes said, quote, our 507 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: so called justice system is a lottery for climate defenders 508 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: and not fit for purpose when it comes to tackling 509 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: the climate and nature crisis. Meanwhile, several other climate activists 510 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: are either in jail or awaiting trial in the UK. 511 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 7: Next year there are going to be quite a few 512 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 7: more trials of climate protesters, some of them accused of 513 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 7: quite significant damage, so it'll be interesting to see how 514 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 7: the courts treat them, whether they become even tougher make 515 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 7: it even harder for activists to make defenses and whether 516 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 7: the sentences are going to be even less lenient. I 517 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 7: understand that some activists are going to be making formal 518 00:29:54,440 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 7: complaints about the UK government, that it's acting disproportionately and 519 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 7: possibly violating some international laws about the right to free 520 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 7: speech and the right to protest. So I think that 521 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 7: will be a really important thing to look out for. 522 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 7: The UK government is aware of its image on the 523 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 7: wider stage, and so that kind of action might help 524 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 7: to show it up as being somewhere which likes to 525 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 7: present itself as a climate leader and a bastion of 526 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 7: free speech, but isn't necessarily living up to that reputation 527 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 7: right now. 528 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: Drilled is an original Critical Frequency production. This episode was 529 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: reported by Isabella Kamensky and written by me Amy Westervelt. 530 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 13: Our senior editor for the series is Ellen Brown. 531 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Martin Zold's Astwig. 532 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 3: Sound design and scoring also by Martin zoltz Ostwik, who 533 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 3: composed much of the music in this episode. 534 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 13: Mixing and mastering by Peter Duff. 535 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: Our theme song is but in the hand by four known. 536 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 13: Fact checking by Rudan Jan. 537 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: Al Atwick is by Matt Fleming. Our first them in 538 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: my Attorney is James whet. 539 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 13: The show was created by Amy Westerveldt. 540 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: You can find a companion web story to this episode 541 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: on our website at drilled dot Media. You can also 542 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: subscribe to our newsletter there. It comes out once a 543 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: week and includes a little bit of analysis on what's 544 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: happening in climate, plus a roundup of the top five 545 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 1: stories or studies to check out each week. It's never 546 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: more than a ten minute read, and people tell us 547 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: it helps them stay on top of all things climate. 548 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: If you want to support our work, you can also 549 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: leave us a rating or review. It genuinely helps us 550 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: find new listeners. And finally, if you would like to 551 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: fund more climate accountability reporting, you can sign up for 552 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: a paid subscription to either the newsletter or the podcast. 553 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: A subscription gets you access to ad free episodes, bonus 554 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 1: and early content, and every dollar you contribute goes toward 555 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: more reporting and more stories. Thank you for that support. 556 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: That's it for this time and we'll see you next week.