WEBVTT - Could you get away with murder? 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.000 Hey everyone, Manny here from No Such Thing. We are 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:05.760 so excited to share that No Such Thing was named 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.120 one of Apple Podcasts Best Shows of twenty twenty five. 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:11.480 If you've already been listening, thank you so much for 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:13.800 being a part of the No Such Thing community, and 0:00:13.920 --> 0:00:16.880 definitely keep emailing us. We love chatting with you all. 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:19.720 If you're new to No Such Thing, do yourself a 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:22.200 favor and go through our catalog because none of it 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:25.040 is outdated. Each episode is a banger, so be sure 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:27.440 to go check that out. After that, make sure you 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:30.320 check out the full best of twenty twenty five collection 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:34.760 in the Apple Podcast app, and finally, enjoy this week's episode. 0:00:36.840 --> 0:00:39.559 I'm Manny, I'm Noah, this is Devin, and this is 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:42.080 No Such Thing, the show where we settle our dumb 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:46.519 arguments and yours by actually doing the research. On today's episode, 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:49.120 we're gonna find out how easy it is to get 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:51.800 away with murder. I'm going to talk to a criminologist, 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:54.640 and then I'm gonna have Devin and Noah present their 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:57.360 plans to kill each other to a former detective. 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:00.000 So that's that's my plan. What are your initial reactions there? 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:01.760 Well, first of all, it's messed up. 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:11.240 But yeah, there's no such thing, no such thing, no 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:18.800 such thing, such thing, no such thing. 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:26.480 All right, Fellas, I was watching some stand up recently 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:30.319 and I came across something that has to do with 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:31.920 this episode. So I want to play this clip for you. 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:34.800 On Cold Case Files, they solve old murders, and it's 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:36.920 really interesting because what I learned from it is that 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:39.760 it was really easy to get away with murder before 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:44.039 they knew about DNA. It was ridiculously easy. Like what 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:47.320 was even going on back then? What was a murder investigation? 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:50.559 Like in nineteen thirty five, One cop would just walk 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:53.200 in and be like, detective, we found a pool of 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:54.680 the killer's blood in that hallway. 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:57.360 He would just be like, hmmm, gross. 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:00.240 Mapaa. 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:04.080 So I think part of what makes this funny is 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:06.920 that it has to be true, right Like back then, 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:11.799 before the advent of forensic or scientific investigation, these crime 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:15.720 scenes were littered with so much information telling you who 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:18.680 exactly the killer was, but they just could do nothing 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:22.000 about it. Obviously, it's been a very long time since 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:25.359 the setting of John Mulaney's joke, but it made me 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:29.000 think about the current state of criminology, Like what the 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:32.520 current status of that field is. And I did a 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:36.160 tiny bit of research. According to a report from the 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:40.960 New York Times, and despite all of the technological advancements 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:45.120 we've made since the thirties or whatever, nearly half of 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:47.960 all murders go unsolved. 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:50.080 Half. 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:52.520 Yeah, I want to get your guys a reaction to this. 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:55.240 Two that's pretty good odds. 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:58.120 Basically, if you commit a murder. I don't think statistics 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:00.840 works exactly like this, but if you commit a murder, 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:03.320 you have about a fifty percent chance of getting away 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:03.680 with it. 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:05.200 That's pretty insane. 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:08.000 Yeah, and that's that's the United States, that's in America. 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:12.200 Yes, especially considering how many people we have god damn prisons, 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:15.040 you know, not enough murderers apparently. 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:17.440 Yeah, let's change the quote is a little. 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:21.480 And what surprises me too, is that we know that 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:25.240 the homicide rate in the past thirty years or whatever 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:26.480 has gone gone down. 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:28.960 They're gonna make it easier to solve murders. There's less of. 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:31.680 Them happening, right, Yeah, that's a good point. There's less 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:33.800 stuff for them to do, so you think you'd be 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:36.520 more focused. Yeah, you know, I used to have one hundred. 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:37.320 Now we've got ten. 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:41.360 Yeah, I mean I wonder what the type of murders 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:45.040 that do happen are like in our head, and what 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:47.680 we're going to discuss later is more of these premeditated 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:51.119 schemes versus like I imagine most murders are more just like, yeah, 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:53.400 we're fighting at a moment, I'm gonna shoot you or something, 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:56.720 or like a robbery, something like yeah, domestic thing or 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:58.800 just like more either crimes of passion or just like 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:01.600 you know, exactly where immediate. That's what I'm just mean, 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:04.960 way easier to solve than like, right, you know, some mastermind. 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:07.840 Before reading the stat I would have thought that the 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:11.800 vast majority of murders would have one clear suspect and 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:14.240 then it would be easy to solve this. Yeah, I've thought, like, 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:17.039 the reason we don't really have serial killers today is 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:21.880 because of these kind of technological advancements in in forensics studies, 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:25.600 where yeah, if you kill like ten people, it's way 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:27.400 easier to figure out who you are than it was 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:29.720 in the seventies or whatever. But I'm surprised to hear 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:32.719 that that's not really been the case for your regular 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:34.440 run of the mill murders. 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:37.039 I mean, it's amazing, like I was reading about the 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:41.960 BTK killer kind of recently, you know, brushing up, and 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:44.279 it's like amazing. It's like this guy's killing a lot 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:47.320 of people, taking photographs all this stuff. Then he has 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:50.040 like his normal family life, and he basically got caught 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:53.440 because he was like essentially taunting the police by sending 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:55.000 them letters. And then like, I think he got caught 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:56.960 because he sent a flop He like asked the FBI 0:04:57.080 --> 0:04:58.800 or someone like, would you guys be able to trace 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:00.120 me if I sent you a floppy disc? And they 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:02.400 were like no, And then he set the floppy disk 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:05.080 and it had like his logging for like his it 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:07.800 was like from his church computer something, and it's like, 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:10.839 if you just shut up, no one would have found 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:13.520 like maybe after you died they would have discovered something, 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:15.520 but yeah, you would have been fine. So he really could. 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:18.479 I think he blew it to be frank, he. 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:20.560 Was generational and bust. 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:21.200 Yeah. 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:22.880 Well, I want to ask you guys two questions. The 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:25.279 first one has to do with this stat that nearly 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:29.000 half of murders go unsolved. Just curious, like what your guys' 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:32.560 take on why this might be without having done any research. 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:34.839 We're gonna we're gonna talk to someone who knows why, 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:36.160 but I want to get your thoughts. 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:41.120 My initial reaction is the people who are murdered and 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:43.239 their murders aren't solved, are. 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.920 Poor people m not enough importance on the case. It's 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:47.400 so the. 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:52.960 Cops don't care and resources really aren't put towards finding 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:56.360 because it's like, hey, you know, it's it's poor people 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:57.480 killing poor people. 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:00.960 It doesn't affect us that their own thing. 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:06.800 If something happens within that community, whatever, Yeah, it's sort of. 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:08.160 Like it's not as important. 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:11.240 And then I think there's the community has a distrust 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:15.039 for the police in those communities because of their lack 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:18.800 of actually helping. So I think people are less willing 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:20.680 to work with the police. 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:21.320 In those communities. 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:24.039 That's a good hypothesis because I do remember a couple 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:28.360 of years ago the kind of national news about Gabby Petito. 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:30.040 Do you realize yes, yes, so she. 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:33.840 Was kind of kidnapped, taken across the country by her boyfriend, 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:37.120 eventually murdered, and it just ended up being this like 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:40.680 kind of national news that a lot of people responded 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:42.080 to this by saying, well, you know, there are a 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:45.880 bunch of kind of poor black or brown victims where 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:47.800 the exact same thing is happening, but it doesn't get 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:50.400 treated the same way. So I could I could imagine 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:53.440 if if that's true, that might also be true within 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:56.760 the police departments, where they just have like a certain 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:57.600 level of apathy. 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:00.520 I guess to Devin's point, it's like there is like 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:03.920 that Long Island Beach killer and he's killing like sex workers. 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:06.320 So it's like these are people who probably maybe don't 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:08.280 even have a family. No one's looking for them, Yeah 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:11.040 they are gone, and then he seems like kind of 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:14.840 a weirdo loner gut like those things magic, it's like, yeah, 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:18.040 the victim's not high profile, or it becomes one, then 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:20.840 no one's looking, and then it's kind of like, well, 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:22.680 why are we going to spend all of our time 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:25.480 on this when there's other things going on or yeah, 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:25.960 what have you? 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:26.160 So? 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:29.280 And then that's even in New York. It's like, imagine 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:32.960 more rural areas. In four areas, it's like it's only 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:37.440 gonna yeah, so you could easily see someone goes missing 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:39.920 and it's just not that much pressure if there's not 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:41.880 this kind of ground swell of attention. 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:45.400 Right, Yeah, but I've got another question for you guys. 0:07:46.320 --> 0:07:48.800 When I read this stat I don't want to say 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:55.000 I'm like built different or anything, but I just felt like, Okay, 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:59.480 most people committing a murder are probably driven by something specific, 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:04.080 know the person, there's some kind of animosity. But I wonder, like, 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:06.960 if you know the three of us are relatively smart, 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:11.720 do you think you could get away with murder if 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:15.000 you really put your mind to it, if you sat 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:18.240 down and concocted a plant that you felt like would 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:22.640 elude police? Or do you feel like it's twenty twenty five. 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:26.480 They've got cameras everywhere, They've got the craziest technology you 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:28.760 can imagine. You're not getting away with it. 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:30.960 No, you don't think you get away with it. 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:33.360 I mean, we'll see what the cop says later. But 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:35.640 in terms of why not, In terms of I just 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:38.840 think I don't have confidence in one my ability to 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:41.880 clean up after myself. Mm, like there would just be 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:44.520 something some way to trace me, Like, yeah, I wouldn't 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:47.000 be able to go deep enough. I don't think into 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:50.240 like being so careful about covering my steps both before 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:53.880 and after and as soon as I if I was 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:56.600 interrogated as a suspect, you'd fold even if I wasn't 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:00.199 a suspect, but if they were just talking to me like, oh, 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:02.800 you know this, you know this person, right? Like, I 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:05.200 think I would just I don't think I would be 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:07.040 I don't think i'd immediately confessed, but I think i'd 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:08.640 give enough signs that'd be like, let's talk to this 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:11.200 guy for maybe ten more hours, yeah, and then I'd 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:14.600 be like, yeah, yeah, maybe it was Actually I think 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:17.120 I would give in. I think I think it would close. 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:20.240 It would very quickly occur to me like I'll probably 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:23.000 just be better off if I'm good, and maybe I 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:24.959 can get out and see the sunlight one day. 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:26.840 What about you, Devin, how do you feel? 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:27.760 See? 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:30.560 My thought on this is I do think I could 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:33.480 get a way with it. But that's also the same 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:34.920 reason I think I could get away with it is 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:36.680 the same reason why I wouldn't commit a murder. 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:37.760 You know, I feel like I'm. 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:39.199 No. 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.200 I feel like we talk about this all the time 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:45.839 anytime there's a big murder case and someone gets caught 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:47.760 and you're like, why the hell did you do that? 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:50.320 Or what the hell is that happening? And I think 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:52.400 we forget these people are not in the right state 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:56.160 of mind this person they have decided to murder someone else, 0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:58.400 So it's not like they're thinking in some ways. They're 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:01.120 thinking really logically. You're like, wow, you really planning this 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:04.240 cart out? And then they do something really dumb and 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:05.880 you're like why, you know, why do you still have 0:10:05.960 --> 0:10:08.160 the gun? Like what why would you go and sit 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:10.440 down and eat out of McDonald's when you're on you know, 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:14.600 like things like that. So I feel like, planning wise, 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:17.200 I think I would be able to think through a 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:22.199 lot of stuff, right, But I think me as a person, 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:25.520 I think I would fall apart emotionally having killed a person. 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:27.880 You would be able to live with the guilt. 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:30.880 It would be tough to kill a person, you know. 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:33.120 I think it would be like, I've never been in 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:37.319 a fight. To go from never being in like a 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:39.959 true fist fight to killing a person is quite a nicey. 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:42.720 That's why you'd be good because no one would suspect you. 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:45.240 WHOA yeah, he snapped. 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:46.240 Yeah. 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:50.679 Well, we're going to put these these hypotheses to the test. 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:54.040 We're going to talk to a former detective and I'm 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:57.040 going to have the two of you concoct a plan 0:10:57.200 --> 0:11:00.240 to kill each other. We're going to present this these 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:03.040 plans to a former detective, just so that he could 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:07.440 poke holes in them figure out where you went wrong. 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.640 Or maybe he'll hear your plan and be like, actually, 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:12.480 that's that would be really difficult for. 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:13.640 Me to end up on a watch list. 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:16.199 Yeah, and then we will not be allowed to leave 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:20.160 the studio. But before we get to the former detective, 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:24.040 I think it's worth talking to a criminologist about this 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:26.120 stat that I mentioned at the beginning of the episode 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:29.760 about how half of murders go unsolved. What really could 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:33.280 be leading to the decrease of murder clearance rates, especially 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:35.320 because homicide rates have been on the fall for a 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.240 long time now, despite what you hear on Fox News. 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:50.240 But that's after the break. Okay, we're back. I'm Manny, 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:54.920 I'm Noah, and we were just discussing the stat where 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:58.880 fifty or nearly fifty percent of murder cases go unsolved. 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:02.560 It's time now to talk to a criminologist who might 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:04.880 have some insights for us. When I was looking for 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.360 a criminologist, I wanted to pick someone who's been doing 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:10.320 this for decades, like a really long time, so be 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:13.480 able to to really pinpoint the kind of movements in 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:16.520 this field, the developments, and you guys might like to 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:20.320 hear this. He is a professor at the American University 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:23.440 Fellow Eagle where the two of you graduated. 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:24.720 Once. 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:29.840 Always that's beautiful, We always say that that's lad to 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:31.800 ask him, that's just a little touch. 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:38.079 So you know what we said. So here's doctor Brian 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:41.040 Forrest from Washington, d C. Hi. 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:45.640 My name is Brian Forrest. I'm a professor emeritus of Justice, 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:49.040 Law and Criminology at American University in the School of 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:51.719 Public Affairs, and I'm happy to be here. 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:54.760 We're just gonna skip straight to the main question. Why 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:58.400 are there so many unsolved murders in the US today, 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:02.480 despite the facts that the murder rate has crashed since 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:05.880 the nineteen nineties. Doctor Forest said it has a lot 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:09.239 to do with what he calls community policing. 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:18.520 What happened to community policing? Whatever happened to community policing. 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:23.440 The tragedy of the last twenty years or so has 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:27.960 been that policing has descended from the model that was 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:32.880 created in eighteen twenty nine by Sir Robert Peel, who 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:38.240 was the creator of the London Metropolitan Police Service, which 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:42.960 was a revolutionary way. It moved from the night watchmen 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:48.240 to creating police officers as professionals. They were trained to 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:51.360 be members of public. The police are the public, and 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:54.960 the public are the police, according to Robert Peel. And 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:58.400 so the idea was that the police didn't come into 0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:03.359 a community as aliens stormtroopers. They came in as servants, 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:07.200 as members of the community who were respectful of the 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.360 members of the community, even if those members were not 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:13.480 always in good standings. And it was a model that 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:18.000 was at the heart of community policing movement in America 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:21.200 in the nineteen eighties and nineties. And during that period, 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:25.840 our crime rate went down, homicide rates went way down, 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:30.640 the clearance rates went up. We were trending in the 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:33.680 right direction. So the police really are at the heart 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:37.000 of the problem and the heart of the solution. And 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:40.520 we were moving in the right direction from nineteen ninety 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:47.160 to about the twenty teens, and then all hell broke loose. 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:50.440 The growing outrage over the shooting death of Trayvon Martin. 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:52.560 But the shooting of eighteen year old Michael Brown has 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:54.320 opened a wound in the community. 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:57.000 Shocking dash can video has been released of the fatal 0:14:57.000 --> 0:14:58.960 police shooting of Philandel, castile. 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:01.560 Protesters calling for justice for Breonna Taylor. 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:05.640 Peaceful demonstrations over the death of George Floyd yesterday turned 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:06.560 into violence. 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:11.360 The policing went south, and it's a real shame. And 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:14.840 the question is can we find ways of returning to 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:20.760 the noble, decent ethic of community policing where the police 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:24.240 see themselves as members and servants of the community, rather 0:15:24.280 --> 0:15:30.720 than as better than or entitled to use brutal force 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:34.360 willy nilly, as they are currently being encouraged from the 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:35.320 highest levels. 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:45.080 What is it exactly about the departure from community policing 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:49.920 that affects the rate at which murders are solved. 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:52.960 Yeah, there's a great question. It really comes down to 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:57.240 a matter of trust between the citizenry and the police, 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:01.640 and what community policing does is build and when the 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:07.960 police have good contacts within the community, the clergy, school 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:13.480 superintendents and principles and teachers, political war chiefs, they can 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:17.320 have better access to the community. And when they are 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:21.600 encouraged to despise the very idea of community, as we 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:24.720 saw with Sarah Palin a few years ago, you know, 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:26.280 I guess. 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:32.320 A small town mayor is sort of like a community organizer. 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:35.240 Except that you have actual responsibilities. 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:44.720 Police unfortunately brought into more of Sarah Palin's ideas and 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:49.360 less of Robert Peel's ideas of policing as community service. 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:53.840 There's a vicious cycle here. When homicide rates go up, 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:58.440 police resources get overloaded and their ability to solve crimes declinentes, 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:03.480 which only in Olden's the offenders so basically, if it's 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:06.359 easier to get away with crimes, and so they commit more, 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:11.600 which only creates more homicides, more overload of scarce resources, 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:15.240 and so it really is a vicious circle. And like 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:17.280 I say, we have to find ways of breaking it. 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:20.120 And then right now I don't see any on the horizon. 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:24.560 So I think the basic idea here is that if 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:27.480 I were thinking about committing a crime, for example, and 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:30.800 there were good community policing, I would either be less 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:33.560 likely to do it because I have been in contact 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:36.320 with these people I know who they are, or if 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:38.080 I did commit the crime, it would be a lot 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.960 easier to pin me as the suspects because of their 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:44.639 relationships with the community. And you know, you might be like, 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:47.159 hey man, he's in a bad way. Like point me 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:49.520 to where he is or whatever, and they'll come find me. 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:53.960 Whereas today there's such a distrust in policing that you'd 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:56.720 be shocked to hear of like regular citizens in some 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:59.200 cities in the US, like helping the police do something. 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.679 I think people are a bit skeptical of community policing nowadays, 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:06.159 just because like the way that the system is set up, 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:11.399 it does not encourage the ideal version of it. But 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:14.480 I can see in a world in which your only 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:17.639 interactions with police are not them you getting in trouble 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:20.600 with them. If they understand the dynamics of the neighborhood. 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:27.040 Say me and Noah hate each other. If Noah's one day, 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:28.160 they may know. 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:32.720 I know you haven't, or just because they're familiar talk 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:34.600 with him, or they would at least have good enough 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:38.399 relationships with people around could be able to tell them that. 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:41.200 But who was the last person you got an argument with? Yes, 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:44.160 and that sort of thing. You're not starting from zero. 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:46.600 Where this is a lot of criticism of the New 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:49.640 York Police Department in the city is that New York 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:51.880 City Police Department is that a lot of the police 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:53.040 officers live. 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:55.760 On Long Island, so the. 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:00.720 Area they're not they're working in areas that they don't 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:03.199 visit out so different and they don't live, say, they 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:07.239 don't have the familiarity with the community. They're just like 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:10.159 driving in, you know, putting on a uniform, standing in 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:15.000 a corner playing candy Crush, and then getting calls to 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:18.720 you know, arrest people or confront people. They're not like 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:21.600 walking around and be like hey miss. 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:24.959 Yeah, yeah, and then then use stories. And it's not 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:27.720 just like in cities. It's like people call. I think 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:29.920 there was one last week where you know, people call 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:32.040 the police for some other reason than they end up 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:36.399 getting shot or ye arrested or whatever for for another reason. 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.200 And it's like, well, yeah, I mean enough of those. 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:41.960 It's like, yeah, at least hesitate. If it's something where 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:44.520 it's not like an immediate danger, I might be like, yeah, 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:46.280 maybe I'm not going to call the copsle Yeah, they 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:47.920 try to sort a shout or call someone else. 0:19:48.080 --> 0:20:00.159 Yeah. So we learned a lot from the criminologist and 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:04.480 about community policing and how important it is. But now 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:06.800 I think it's time to bring in someone who has 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:11.880 some on the ground experience with actually solving homicide cases. 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:15.840 So joining us now is Chris McDonough. Would you mind 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:17.359 introducing yourself, Chris. 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:19.680 Well, thanks for the invite. My name is Chris McDonough. 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:25.480 I'm a retired homicide guy. I'm also a director currently 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:28.679 with the Cold Case Foundation, and I still have a 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:34.080 job where I work with indigenous people and I investigate 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:37.359 crime still. So I'm kind of a fossil who will 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:40.360 not stop working. Forty two years in the business. 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:42.280 Wow, forty two years. Well, it's good to give me. 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:43.639 Great to talk to you, thenk since you have so 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:46.440 much experience, We've had this kind of question about this 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:50.320 stat that we read recently that nearly fifty percent of 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:55.160 murder cases go unsolved today. That is a decrease than 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:58.119 the rate was in the nineteen nineties, where it was 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:01.639 closer to sixty five to sixty nine. I'm just curious 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:05.719 about your on the ground experience working on homicide cases, 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:09.240 working on solving them in the past few decades. Why 0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:17.280 you think that stat is so high. 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:22.240 You know, it's an interesting question, and it's obviously a 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:27.639 disturbing statistic, right because every human life counts. It doesn't 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:31.239 matter what, when, way, or why. I think there are 0:21:31.280 --> 0:21:33.600 going to be a couple of contributing factors. The first 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:37.720 one is we have these new investigators for lack of 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:44.480 a better term, who depend on technology. Okay, so I 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:49.639