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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, Manny here from No Such Thing. We are

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Speaker 1: so excited to share that No Such Thing was named

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Speaker 1: one of Apple Podcasts Best Shows of twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 1: If you've already been listening, thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: being a part of the No Such Thing community, and

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Speaker 1: definitely keep emailing us. We love chatting with you all.

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Speaker 1: If you're new to No Such Thing, do yourself a

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Speaker 1: favor and go through our catalog because none of it

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Speaker 1: is outdated. Each episode is a banger, so be sure

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Speaker 1: to go check that out. After that, make sure you

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Speaker 1: check out the full best of twenty twenty five collection

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Speaker 1: in the Apple Podcast app, and finally, enjoy this week's episode.

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Speaker 1: I'm Manny, I'm Noah, this is Devin, and this is

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Speaker 1: No Such Thing, the show where we settle our dumb

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Speaker 1: arguments and yours by actually doing the research. On today's episode,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna find out how easy it is to get

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Speaker 1: away with murder. I'm going to talk to a criminologist,

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Speaker 1: and then I'm gonna have Devin and Noah present their

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Speaker 1: plans to kill each other to a former detective.

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Speaker 2: So that's that's my plan. What are your initial reactions there?

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Speaker 3: Well, first of all, it's messed up.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, there's no such thing, no such thing, no

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Speaker 4: such thing, such thing, no such thing.

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Speaker 1: All right, Fellas, I was watching some stand up recently

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Speaker 1: and I came across something that has to do with

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Speaker 1: this episode. So I want to play this clip for you.

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Speaker 5: On Cold Case Files, they solve old murders, and it's

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Speaker 5: really interesting because what I learned from it is that

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Speaker 5: it was really easy to get away with murder before

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Speaker 5: they knew about DNA. It was ridiculously easy. Like what

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Speaker 5: was even going on back then? What was a murder investigation?

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Speaker 5: Like in nineteen thirty five, One cop would just walk

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Speaker 5: in and be like, detective, we found a pool of

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Speaker 5: the killer's blood in that hallway.

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Speaker 2: He would just be like, hmmm, gross.

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Speaker 6: Mapaa.

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Speaker 1: So I think part of what makes this funny is

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Speaker 1: that it has to be true, right Like back then,

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Speaker 1: before the advent of forensic or scientific investigation, these crime

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Speaker 1: scenes were littered with so much information telling you who

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Speaker 1: exactly the killer was, but they just could do nothing

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Speaker 1: about it. Obviously, it's been a very long time since

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Speaker 1: the setting of John Mulaney's joke, but it made me

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Speaker 1: think about the current state of criminology, Like what the

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Speaker 1: current status of that field is. And I did a

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Speaker 1: tiny bit of research. According to a report from the

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Speaker 1: New York Times, and despite all of the technological advancements

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Speaker 1: we've made since the thirties or whatever, nearly half of

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Speaker 1: all murders go unsolved.

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Speaker 4: Half.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to get your guys a reaction to this.

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Speaker 2: Two that's pretty good odds.

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Speaker 1: Basically, if you commit a murder. I don't think statistics

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Speaker 1: works exactly like this, but if you commit a murder,

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Speaker 1: you have about a fifty percent chance of getting away

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Speaker 1: with it.

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Speaker 7: That's pretty insane.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's that's the United States, that's in America.

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Speaker 8: Yes, especially considering how many people we have god damn prisons,

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Speaker 8: you know, not enough murderers apparently.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's change the quote is a little.

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Speaker 1: And what surprises me too, is that we know that

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Speaker 1: the homicide rate in the past thirty years or whatever

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Speaker 1: has gone gone down.

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Speaker 7: They're gonna make it easier to solve murders. There's less of.

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Speaker 8: Them happening, right, Yeah, that's a good point. There's less

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Speaker 8: stuff for them to do, so you think you'd be

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Speaker 8: more focused. Yeah, you know, I used to have one hundred.

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Speaker 8: Now we've got ten.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I wonder what the type of murders

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Speaker 2: that do happen are like in our head, and what

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Speaker 2: we're going to discuss later is more of these premeditated

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Speaker 2: schemes versus like I imagine most murders are more just like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: we're fighting at a moment, I'm gonna shoot you or something,

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Speaker 2: or like a robbery, something like yeah, domestic thing or

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Speaker 2: just like more either crimes of passion or just like

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Speaker 2: you know, exactly where immediate. That's what I'm just mean,

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Speaker 2: way easier to solve than like, right, you know, some mastermind.

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Speaker 1: Before reading the stat I would have thought that the

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Speaker 1: vast majority of murders would have one clear suspect and

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Speaker 1: then it would be easy to solve this. Yeah, I've thought, like,

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Speaker 1: the reason we don't really have serial killers today is

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Speaker 1: because of these kind of technological advancements in in forensics studies,

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Speaker 1: where yeah, if you kill like ten people, it's way

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Speaker 1: easier to figure out who you are than it was

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Speaker 1: in the seventies or whatever. But I'm surprised to hear

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Speaker 1: that that's not really been the case for your regular

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Speaker 1: run of the mill murders.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's amazing, like I was reading about the

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Speaker 2: BTK killer kind of recently, you know, brushing up, and

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Speaker 2: it's like amazing. It's like this guy's killing a lot

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Speaker 2: of people, taking photographs all this stuff. Then he has

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Speaker 2: like his normal family life, and he basically got caught

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Speaker 2: because he was like essentially taunting the police by sending

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Speaker 2: them letters. And then like, I think he got caught

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Speaker 2: because he sent a flop He like asked the FBI

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Speaker 2: or someone like, would you guys be able to trace

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Speaker 2: me if I sent you a floppy disc? And they

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Speaker 2: were like no, And then he set the floppy disk

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Speaker 2: and it had like his logging for like his it

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Speaker 2: was like from his church computer something, and it's like,

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Speaker 2: if you just shut up, no one would have found

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Speaker 2: like maybe after you died they would have discovered something,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, you would have been fine. So he really could.

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Speaker 2: I think he blew it to be frank, he.

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Speaker 1: Was generational and bust.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, I want to ask you guys two questions. The

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Speaker 1: first one has to do with this stat that nearly

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Speaker 1: half of murders go unsolved. Just curious, like what your guys'

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Speaker 1: take on why this might be without having done any research.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna we're gonna talk to someone who knows why,

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Speaker 1: but I want to get your thoughts.

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Speaker 8: My initial reaction is the people who are murdered and

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Speaker 8: their murders aren't solved, are.

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Speaker 1: Poor people m not enough importance on the case. It's

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Speaker 1: so the.

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Speaker 8: Cops don't care and resources really aren't put towards finding

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Speaker 8: because it's like, hey, you know, it's it's poor people

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Speaker 8: killing poor people.

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Speaker 7: It doesn't affect us that their own thing.

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Speaker 8: If something happens within that community, whatever, Yeah, it's sort of.

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Speaker 7: Like it's not as important.

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Speaker 8: And then I think there's the community has a distrust

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Speaker 8: for the police in those communities because of their lack

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Speaker 8: of actually helping. So I think people are less willing

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Speaker 8: to work with the police.

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Speaker 7: In those communities.

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Speaker 1: That's a good hypothesis because I do remember a couple

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Speaker 1: of years ago the kind of national news about Gabby Petito.

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Speaker 7: Do you realize yes, yes, so she.

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Speaker 1: Was kind of kidnapped, taken across the country by her boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: eventually murdered, and it just ended up being this like

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Speaker 1: kind of national news that a lot of people responded

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Speaker 1: to this by saying, well, you know, there are a

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Speaker 1: bunch of kind of poor black or brown victims where

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Speaker 1: the exact same thing is happening, but it doesn't get

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Speaker 1: treated the same way. So I could I could imagine

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Speaker 1: if if that's true, that might also be true within

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Speaker 1: the police departments, where they just have like a certain

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Speaker 1: level of apathy.

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Speaker 2: I guess to Devin's point, it's like there is like

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Speaker 2: that Long Island Beach killer and he's killing like sex workers.

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Speaker 2: So it's like these are people who probably maybe don't

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Speaker 2: even have a family. No one's looking for them, Yeah

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Speaker 2: they are gone, and then he seems like kind of

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Speaker 2: a weirdo loner gut like those things magic, it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: the victim's not high profile, or it becomes one, then

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Speaker 2: no one's looking, and then it's kind of like, well,

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Speaker 2: why are we going to spend all of our time

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Speaker 2: on this when there's other things going on or yeah,

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Speaker 2: what have you?

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Speaker 9: So?

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Speaker 2: And then that's even in New York. It's like, imagine

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Speaker 2: more rural areas. In four areas, it's like it's only

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Speaker 2: gonna yeah, so you could easily see someone goes missing

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Speaker 2: and it's just not that much pressure if there's not

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Speaker 2: this kind of ground swell of attention.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, but I've got another question for you guys.

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Speaker 1: When I read this stat I don't want to say

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Speaker 1: I'm like built different or anything, but I just felt like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: most people committing a murder are probably driven by something specific,

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Speaker 1: know the person, there's some kind of animosity. But I wonder, like,

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Speaker 1: if you know the three of us are relatively smart,

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Speaker 1: do you think you could get away with murder if

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Speaker 1: you really put your mind to it, if you sat

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Speaker 1: down and concocted a plant that you felt like would

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Speaker 1: elude police? Or do you feel like it's twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 1: They've got cameras everywhere, They've got the craziest technology you

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Speaker 1: can imagine. You're not getting away with it.

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Speaker 7: No, you don't think you get away with it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we'll see what the cop says later. But

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Speaker 2: in terms of why not, In terms of I just

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Speaker 2: think I don't have confidence in one my ability to

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Speaker 2: clean up after myself. Mm, like there would just be

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Speaker 2: something some way to trace me, Like, yeah, I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be able to go deep enough. I don't think into

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Speaker 2: like being so careful about covering my steps both before

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Speaker 2: and after and as soon as I if I was

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Speaker 2: interrogated as a suspect, you'd fold even if I wasn't

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Speaker 2: a suspect, but if they were just talking to me like, oh,

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Speaker 2: you know this, you know this person, right? Like, I

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Speaker 2: think I would just I don't think I would be

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Speaker 2: I don't think i'd immediately confessed, but I think i'd

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Speaker 2: give enough signs that'd be like, let's talk to this

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Speaker 2: guy for maybe ten more hours, yeah, and then I'd

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Speaker 2: be like, yeah, yeah, maybe it was Actually I think

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Speaker 2: I would give in. I think I think it would close.

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Speaker 2: It would very quickly occur to me like I'll probably

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Speaker 2: just be better off if I'm good, and maybe I

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Speaker 2: can get out and see the sunlight one day.

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Speaker 1: What about you, Devin, how do you feel?

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Speaker 7: See?

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Speaker 8: My thought on this is I do think I could

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Speaker 8: get a way with it. But that's also the same

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Speaker 8: reason I think I could get away with it is

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Speaker 8: the same reason why I wouldn't commit a murder.

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Speaker 7: You know, I feel like I'm.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 8: I feel like we talk about this all the time

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Speaker 8: anytime there's a big murder case and someone gets caught

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Speaker 8: and you're like, why the hell did you do that?

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Speaker 8: Or what the hell is that happening? And I think

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Speaker 8: we forget these people are not in the right state

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Speaker 8: of mind this person they have decided to murder someone else,

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Speaker 8: So it's not like they're thinking in some ways. They're

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Speaker 8: thinking really logically. You're like, wow, you really planning this

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Speaker 8: cart out? And then they do something really dumb and

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Speaker 8: you're like why, you know, why do you still have

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Speaker 8: the gun? Like what why would you go and sit

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Speaker 8: down and eat out of McDonald's when you're on you know,

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Speaker 8: like things like that. So I feel like, planning wise,

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Speaker 8: I think I would be able to think through a

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Speaker 8: lot of stuff, right, But I think me as a person,

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Speaker 8: I think I would fall apart emotionally having killed a person.

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Speaker 1: You would be able to live with the guilt.

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Speaker 8: It would be tough to kill a person, you know.

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Speaker 8: I think it would be like, I've never been in

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Speaker 8: a fight. To go from never being in like a

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Speaker 8: true fist fight to killing a person is quite a nicey.

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Speaker 2: That's why you'd be good because no one would suspect you.

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Speaker 2: WHOA yeah, he snapped.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're going to put these these hypotheses to the test.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk to a former detective and I'm

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Speaker 1: going to have the two of you concoct a plan

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Speaker 1: to kill each other. We're going to present this these

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Speaker 1: plans to a former detective, just so that he could

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Speaker 1: poke holes in them figure out where you went wrong.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe he'll hear your plan and be like, actually,

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Speaker 1: that's that would be really difficult for.

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Speaker 2: Me to end up on a watch list.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and then we will not be allowed to leave

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Speaker 1: the studio. But before we get to the former detective,

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Speaker 1: I think it's worth talking to a criminologist about this

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Speaker 1: stat that I mentioned at the beginning of the episode

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Speaker 1: about how half of murders go unsolved. What really could

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Speaker 1: be leading to the decrease of murder clearance rates, especially

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Speaker 1: because homicide rates have been on the fall for a

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Speaker 1: long time now, despite what you hear on Fox News.

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Speaker 1: But that's after the break. Okay, we're back. I'm Manny,

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Speaker 1: I'm Noah, and we were just discussing the stat where

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Speaker 1: fifty or nearly fifty percent of murder cases go unsolved.

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Speaker 1: It's time now to talk to a criminologist who might

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Speaker 1: have some insights for us. When I was looking for

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Speaker 1: a criminologist, I wanted to pick someone who's been doing

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Speaker 1: this for decades, like a really long time, so be

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Speaker 1: able to to really pinpoint the kind of movements in

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Speaker 1: this field, the developments, and you guys might like to

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Speaker 1: hear this. He is a professor at the American University

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Speaker 1: Fellow Eagle where the two of you graduated.

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Speaker 4: Once.

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Speaker 2: Always that's beautiful, We always say that that's lad to

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Speaker 2: ask him, that's just a little touch.

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Speaker 1: So you know what we said. So here's doctor Brian

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Speaker 1: Forrest from Washington, d C. Hi.

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Speaker 9: My name is Brian Forrest. I'm a professor emeritus of Justice,

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Speaker 9: Law and Criminology at American University in the School of

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Speaker 9: Public Affairs, and I'm happy to be here.

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Speaker 1: We're just gonna skip straight to the main question. Why

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Speaker 1: are there so many unsolved murders in the US today,

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Speaker 1: despite the facts that the murder rate has crashed since

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Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties. Doctor Forest said it has a lot

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Speaker 1: to do with what he calls community policing.

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Speaker 9: What happened to community policing? Whatever happened to community policing.

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Speaker 9: The tragedy of the last twenty years or so has

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Speaker 9: been that policing has descended from the model that was

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Speaker 9: created in eighteen twenty nine by Sir Robert Peel, who

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Speaker 9: was the creator of the London Metropolitan Police Service, which

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Speaker 9: was a revolutionary way. It moved from the night watchmen

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Speaker 9: to creating police officers as professionals. They were trained to

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Speaker 9: be members of public. The police are the public, and

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Speaker 9: the public are the police, according to Robert Peel. And

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Speaker 9: so the idea was that the police didn't come into

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Speaker 9: a community as aliens stormtroopers. They came in as servants,

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Speaker 9: as members of the community who were respectful of the

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Speaker 9: members of the community, even if those members were not

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Speaker 9: always in good standings. And it was a model that

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Speaker 9: was at the heart of community policing movement in America

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Speaker 9: in the nineteen eighties and nineties. And during that period,

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Speaker 9: our crime rate went down, homicide rates went way down,

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Speaker 9: the clearance rates went up. We were trending in the

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Speaker 9: right direction. So the police really are at the heart

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Speaker 9: of the problem and the heart of the solution. And

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Speaker 9: we were moving in the right direction from nineteen ninety

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Speaker 9: to about the twenty teens, and then all hell broke loose.

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Speaker 1: The growing outrage over the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.

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Speaker 6: But the shooting of eighteen year old Michael Brown has

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Speaker 6: opened a wound in the community.

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Speaker 8: Shocking dash can video has been released of the fatal

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Speaker 8: police shooting of Philandel, castile.

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Speaker 6: Protesters calling for justice for Breonna Taylor.

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Speaker 2: Peaceful demonstrations over the death of George Floyd yesterday turned

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Speaker 2: into violence.

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Speaker 9: The policing went south, and it's a real shame. And

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Speaker 9: the question is can we find ways of returning to

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Speaker 9: the noble, decent ethic of community policing where the police

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Speaker 9: see themselves as members and servants of the community, rather

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Speaker 9: than as better than or entitled to use brutal force

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Speaker 9: willy nilly, as they are currently being encouraged from the

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Speaker 9: highest levels.

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Speaker 1: What is it exactly about the departure from community policing

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Speaker 1: that affects the rate at which murders are solved.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, there's a great question. It really comes down to

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Speaker 9: a matter of trust between the citizenry and the police,

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Speaker 9: and what community policing does is build and when the

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Speaker 9: police have good contacts within the community, the clergy, school

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Speaker 9: superintendents and principles and teachers, political war chiefs, they can

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Speaker 9: have better access to the community. And when they are

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Speaker 9: encouraged to despise the very idea of community, as we

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Speaker 9: saw with Sarah Palin a few years ago, you know,

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Speaker 9: I guess.

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Speaker 8: A small town mayor is sort of like a community organizer.

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Speaker 6: Except that you have actual responsibilities.

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Speaker 9: Police unfortunately brought into more of Sarah Palin's ideas and

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Speaker 9: less of Robert Peel's ideas of policing as community service.

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Speaker 9: There's a vicious cycle here. When homicide rates go up,

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Speaker 9: police resources get overloaded and their ability to solve crimes declinentes,

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Speaker 9: which only in Olden's the offenders so basically, if it's

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Speaker 9: easier to get away with crimes, and so they commit more,

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Speaker 9: which only creates more homicides, more overload of scarce resources,

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Speaker 9: and so it really is a vicious circle. And like

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Speaker 9: I say, we have to find ways of breaking it.

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Speaker 9: And then right now I don't see any on the horizon.

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Speaker 1: So I think the basic idea here is that if

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Speaker 1: I were thinking about committing a crime, for example, and

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Speaker 1: there were good community policing, I would either be less

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Speaker 1: likely to do it because I have been in contact

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Speaker 1: with these people I know who they are, or if

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Speaker 1: I did commit the crime, it would be a lot

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Speaker 1: easier to pin me as the suspects because of their

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Speaker 1: relationships with the community. And you know, you might be like,

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Speaker 1: hey man, he's in a bad way. Like point me

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Speaker 1: to where he is or whatever, and they'll come find me.

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Speaker 1: Whereas today there's such a distrust in policing that you'd

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Speaker 1: be shocked to hear of like regular citizens in some

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Speaker 1: cities in the US, like helping the police do something.

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Speaker 8: I think people are a bit skeptical of community policing nowadays,

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Speaker 8: just because like the way that the system is set up,

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Speaker 8: it does not encourage the ideal version of it. But

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Speaker 8: I can see in a world in which your only

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Speaker 8: interactions with police are not them you getting in trouble

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Speaker 8: with them. If they understand the dynamics of the neighborhood.

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Speaker 8: Say me and Noah hate each other. If Noah's one day,

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Speaker 8: they may know.

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Speaker 2: I know you haven't, or just because they're familiar talk

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Speaker 2: with him, or they would at least have good enough

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Speaker 2: relationships with people around could be able to tell them that.

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Speaker 8: But who was the last person you got an argument with? Yes,

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Speaker 8: and that sort of thing. You're not starting from zero.

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Speaker 8: Where this is a lot of criticism of the New

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Speaker 8: York Police Department in the city is that New York

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Speaker 8: City Police Department is that a lot of the police

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Speaker 8: officers live.

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Speaker 7: On Long Island, so the.

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Speaker 8: Area they're not they're working in areas that they don't

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Speaker 8: visit out so different and they don't live, say, they

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Speaker 8: don't have the familiarity with the community. They're just like

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Speaker 8: driving in, you know, putting on a uniform, standing in

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Speaker 8: a corner playing candy Crush, and then getting calls to

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Speaker 8: you know, arrest people or confront people. They're not like

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Speaker 8: walking around and be like hey miss.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and then then use stories. And it's not

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Speaker 2: just like in cities. It's like people call. I think

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Speaker 2: there was one last week where you know, people call

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Speaker 2: the police for some other reason than they end up

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Speaker 2: getting shot or ye arrested or whatever for for another reason.

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Speaker 2: And it's like, well, yeah, I mean enough of those.

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Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, at least hesitate. If it's something where

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Speaker 2: it's not like an immediate danger, I might be like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: maybe I'm not going to call the copsle Yeah, they

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Speaker 2: try to sort a shout or call someone else.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So we learned a lot from the criminologist and

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Speaker 1: about community policing and how important it is. But now

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Speaker 1: I think it's time to bring in someone who has

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Speaker 1: some on the ground experience with actually solving homicide cases.

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Speaker 1: So joining us now is Chris McDonough. Would you mind

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Speaker 1: introducing yourself, Chris.

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Speaker 3: Well, thanks for the invite. My name is Chris McDonough.

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Speaker 6: I'm a retired homicide guy. I'm also a director currently

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Speaker 6: with the Cold Case Foundation, and I still have a

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Speaker 6: job where I work with indigenous people and I investigate

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Speaker 6: crime still. So I'm kind of a fossil who will

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Speaker 6: not stop working. Forty two years in the business.

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Speaker 1: Wow, forty two years. Well, it's good to give me.

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Speaker 1: Great to talk to you, thenk since you have so

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Speaker 1: much experience, We've had this kind of question about this

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Speaker 1: stat that we read recently that nearly fifty percent of

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Speaker 1: murder cases go unsolved today. That is a decrease than

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Speaker 1: the rate was in the nineteen nineties, where it was

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Speaker 1: closer to sixty five to sixty nine. I'm just curious

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Speaker 1: about your on the ground experience working on homicide cases,

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Speaker 1: working on solving them in the past few decades. Why

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Speaker 1: you think that stat is so high.

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Speaker 6: You know, it's an interesting question, and it's obviously a

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Speaker 6: disturbing statistic, right because every human life counts. It doesn't

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Speaker 6: matter what, when, way, or why. I think there are

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Speaker 6: going to be a couple of contributing factors. The first

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Speaker 6: one is we have these new investigators for lack of

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Speaker 6: a better term, who depend on technology. Okay, so I

401
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Speaker 6: think there's a shifting in terms of investigators losing the

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Speaker 6: ability to have critical thinking skills because they're not recognizing

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Speaker 6: if Google didn't say it or the lab didn't say it,

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Speaker 6: then how do I say it? How do I get

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Speaker 6: to the answer?

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Speaker 3: Okay?

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Speaker 6: That's very problematic. If you're working south central Los Angeles

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Speaker 6: and you go into Compton and you don't have the

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Speaker 6: ability to respect people and or have the ability to communicate,

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Speaker 6: they end up putting up barriers, for lack of a

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Speaker 6: better term, even before they get to the scene because

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Speaker 6: they're thinking one way, well, if we get forensics evidence, okay,

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Speaker 6: that will solve the crime. And if they forget the

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Speaker 6: fundamental piece of human interaction is to do what we're

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Speaker 6: doing right now. Sitting here, We're going to have a conversation.

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Speaker 6: It may be uncomfortable for either one of us. It

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Speaker 6: doesn't matter. The point being is we have the ability

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Speaker 6: to communicate.

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Speaker 3: Or my time, we.

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Speaker 6: Didn't have what was DNA right? I started in nineteen

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Speaker 6: eighty two. What was DNA right?

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Speaker 3: What's that my generation.

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Speaker 6: Used to ring doorbells and kiss babies and shake hands

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Speaker 6: and shit with families while they cried and screamed and shouted.

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Speaker 6: And then you always get that one dude on the

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Speaker 6: side that says, hey, can I tell you someuntain of

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Speaker 6: the off the record, And you see, yeah, sure, what's up?

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Speaker 6: And you listen and the next thing you know that

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Speaker 6: that takes you to another place.

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Speaker 1: How would you go about trying to fix this and

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Speaker 1: remedy this so that we could get back to a

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Speaker 1: place where police officers are in these communities and there

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Speaker 1: isn't a lot of animosity between the police departments in

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Speaker 1: their local communities.

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Speaker 6: I mean, I can tell you a story. I won't

436
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Speaker 6: drop his street name, but he was a main street crip. Okay,

437
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Speaker 6: this guy's like hardcourt. Okay, he's out there swinging dope.

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00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 6: He's doing the whole game.

439
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 3: Okay.

440
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,719
Speaker 6: I stopped him one night and he had his kid

441
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,160
Speaker 6: in the back seat of his car. And I looked

442
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 6: in the back seat and I see this four year

443
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 6: old kid sitting on the seat and this is going

444
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 6: to answer your question, I hope. And I looked at

445
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,719
Speaker 6: him and I said, dude, I know you're out here

446
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 6: slinging dope.

447
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 3: You got to do what you got to do right.

448
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 6: In some communities, you go to do what you have

449
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:21,640
Speaker 6: to do to survive.

450
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 3: So I said to him, I said, okay, where's your dope?

451
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,879
Speaker 6: And he kind of messed around a little bit and

452
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 6: he finally shows me his dope and I said, okay,

453
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 6: get out of the car and dump it.

454
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 3: He says, what do you mean? I said, get out

455
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 3: of the car and don't dump you dope and step

456
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:39,479
Speaker 3: on it. Crush it.

457
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 6: They were all little rocks, right, so he crushes it.

458
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 6: I said, okay, you owe me. Now what I want

459
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 6: you to do at ten o'clock in the morning is

460
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 6: you're going to meet me at kmart And he goes

461
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 6: why I said, no, you owe me. He said, okay,

462
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,200
Speaker 6: sure enough, ten am shows up. True story. WI walk

463
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,360
Speaker 6: him into the store. I said, grab a car seat.

464
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 6: He goes, what do you mean? I said, pick a

465
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 6: car seat, and he gets one. We get the car sheet.

466
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 6: I take it out to his car. I said, put

467
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 6: it in, and I looked at him. I said, you

468
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 6: have a chance in life, but that four year old

469
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 6: does not until you give it to him. And you

470
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 6: driving around slinging dope with a four year old not

471
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 6: strapped in the back.

472
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 3: Sheet is not a good look. Okay.

473
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:34,880
Speaker 6: Now, twenty three years later, my phone rings and I'm like.

474
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 3: Who is it?

475
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,679
Speaker 6: He goes, Yo, he says mc They used to call

476
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 6: him McDuff. They could never pronounce my last name. This

477
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 6: is McDonough, so on the street it was always hey McDuff. Right,

478
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 6: I said, dude, how'd you get my number? Man, I've

479
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,640
Speaker 6: been retired and all this other stuff. He's like, there's

480
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 6: waste today McDuff. I said, okay, cool, I said, I said,

481
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 6: what's up? And he goes, I want to invite you

482
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 6: to my son's graduation from the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department.

483
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 6: I was like blown away, okay, and then he says,

484
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 6: true story, I did it.

485
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 3: I said, yeah, you did. You broke it, man, you

486
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 3: broke the cycle. So that.

487
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 6: You can't invent that. Does that make sense? Studies can't

488
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 6: make that happen. That trust only comes when you give it.

489
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 6: Am I serving somebody? Or am I just managing a system?

490
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 6: And when you figure out it's about not always putting

491
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 6: handcuffs on people, It's about hearing their story and saying okay,

492
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 6: I see where you're coming from. You dump the dope,

493
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 6: and that's old school police work.

494
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 1: After the break, it's the moment you've all been waiting for.

495
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: Devin and Noah present their plans to kill each other

496
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: to a detective. Before we get back to this week's episode,

497
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 1: we got a lot of feedback about last week's episode

498
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: answering all of your questions about laundry. Somehow we didn't

499
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: answer everything. One listener, Monica, asked about items that are

500
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 1: labeled dry clean only. We touched on dry cleaning briefly

501
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 1: when it comes to suits, but she wanted to know

502
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,719
Speaker 1: if we can wash other items with this label on

503
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: our own. The laundry expert Patrick said yes, he takes

504
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: quote dry clean only to mean essentially wash with caution.

505
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: For more on this and other questions, including a bit

506
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: of controversy around the alleged health impacts of fabric softeners,

507
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: check out this week's edition of our newsletter at no

508
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 1: Such Thing Dot Show. Now back to this week's episode, So, Chris,

509
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: in order to get a better understanding of this kind

510
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: of old school police work, I thought it'd be interesting

511
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: to see it play out in real time, and so

512
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: what I've done is I've had Noah and Devin come

513
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,719
Speaker 1: up with plans to off each other, so to speak,

514
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: and I'd love for you, as a former detective, to

515
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: essentially grade them. You might be able to be like, Okay,

516
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,360
Speaker 1: these guys are idiots. They'd get caught in a heartbeat.

517
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: And so we'll start with uh, we'll start with Noah. Okay,

518
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 1: So Noah's gonna present his plan, and as he's talking,

519
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: you feel free to ask him questions about what he

520
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: would do here and there.

521
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, feel free to jump in.

522
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 3: Let me let me grab a hand, real feished?

523
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 7: Sure?

524
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: Great, you need a lot of notes?

525
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 2: All right, all right, ready, all right, hit may So

526
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 2: first of all, I'm gonna take my time with this thing.

527
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 2: I'm not rushing into.

528
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: This, Okay.

529
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 2: So first, once I decide I'm gonna kill Devin, I'm

530
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 2: gonna with cash buy a laptop that's gonna be my

531
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 2: burner laptop, and I'm only gonna use it out and

532
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 2: you know, not in my home, not on my Wi Fi.

533
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 2: And I'm gonna use VPNs and I'm gonna use tour

534
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 2: dark web browsing.

535
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: Okay, got it so dark hopefully.

536
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. So then I was thinking, all right, I was like,

537
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 2: what do I know about Devin. I know he loves tea.

538
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 2: He drinks tea every day most you know, I think

539
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 2: three at least three cups. Yeah, I'm gonna make tea

540
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 2: poisoned tea. I was on my computer, my lap, my burner, laptop.

541
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 2: I'll be researching what types of flowers are poisonous. There's like,

542
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 2: you know, night shade. There's the leave of the Valley

543
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 2: for all the breaking bad heads out there, So I'll

544
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 2: procure these. At some point, I'm gonna kind of get

545
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 2: invited to Evan's apartment, maybe a movie night or something,

546
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 2: one on one hopefully so there's no one else around, okay,

547
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 2: or you know, wait till everyone's distracted, you go to

548
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 2: the bathroom or something. So I'm thinking I'll put I'll

549
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 2: throw gloves on real quick while you're in the bathroom,

550
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 2: sneak over, take my poison to out, put it back in,

551
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 2: seal it up nice hopefully, and then just sit and wait,

552
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 2: because you know, it might be a while before you

553
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 2: even get to my poisoned t bags. I'm hoping there's

554
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 2: some time passing so it's not like, oh yeah, no,

555
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 2: it was over for movie night and then the next day,

556
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 2: your stomach's exploding. Who knows what's happening. So that's that's

557
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 2: my plan. What do you What are your initial reactions there?

558
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, it's messed up.

559
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 2: But yeah, listen, I didn't enjoy doing this at all,

560
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 2: but I had to. You know, I'm trying to get

561
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 2: his stake in the podcast.

562
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 3: Very intricately thought out.

563
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 6: Now, the interesting thing about poison is about ninety percent

564
00:30:53,560 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 6: of women will use poison as a weapon of choice,

565
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 6: ten percent of men. So you automatically would fit into

566
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 6: a rare category of homicide suspects.

567
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 3: That's number one.

568
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 2: I have a question, because it's poison, would you then

569
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 2: be looking for all the women in Devin's circle first.

570
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 6: Yes and no, And we'd have to see what the

571
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 6: environments are for you know, where Devon was living, et cetera.

572
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 3: Are you married Devon? Can I? Maybe I should know?

573
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 7: I'm not married?

574
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 6: Okay, Yeah, So he's out there in the world and

575
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 6: he's probably got girls around him and that kind of stuff.

576
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 6: But that's going to be pretty quick to eliminate that

577
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 6: situation because you're.

578
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 3: In that core, you're in the middle.

579
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 6: Okay, we want to eliminate that medal first and then

580
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 6: work our way out all the ideas of going ghost

581
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 6: on you know, the digital footprint, etc.

582
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 3: Like that, that's not going to be real problem.

583
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 6: There's some very serious software out there that the FEDS have,

584
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 6: and so we would collect your data, send.

585
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 3: It back to the FBI and see if.

586
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 6: They can rediscover some of those sites that you visited.

587
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: Quick question, so does going on those kind of VPNs

588
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: or tour browsers doesn't necessarily protect you from police activities?

589
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,719
Speaker 6: Now there are ways of making it all go away,

590
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 6: of course, but that's really you know, you've got to

591
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 6: hammer the hard drive or you've got to bleach it

592
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 6: and all this other stuff, right, But the fact that

593
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 6: he chose poisoning, okay, gives me the advantage. So it's

594
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 6: very rare for a guy to poison one of his friends.

595
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 6: So immediately I would want to know what your orientation

596
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 6: is in terms of if there's an attraction and that

597
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 6: went sideways, you know, not throwing my man Devin under

598
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 6: the bus for a second. But let's say the autops

599
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 6: comes back and says, hey, this is a poisoning. So

600
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 6: what I would do is I would interview all of

601
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 6: Devon's circle of influence the folks around him, and there's

602
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 6: what they call a victim risk continuum. It would say environment, situation, circumstance. Okay, low, medium.

603
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 3: Or high.

604
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 6: So the question is what's the environment. Well, that's where

605
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 6: Devon was found. If it's his apartment, is that a low,

606
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 6: medium or high risk environment?

607
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 3: What do you guys think.

608
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: In your apartment would be a low risk I guess.

609
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 6: Yeah exactly because if it was like down you know,

610
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 6: at times square at two o'clock in the morning. Yeah, right,

611
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 6: that Now that shifts a lot of happening, right, And

612
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 6: so what's the situation right you would go, oh, he's

613
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 6: hanging out with friends, you know, kicking it here, watching TV,

614
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 6: et cetera, et cetera.

615
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 3: Is that a low higher medium risk activity?

616
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 9: Right?

617
00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 3: Again, it goes to that low side. So everything in this.

618
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 6: Murderer that Noah has planned here tells us it hits

619
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 6: on the low side.

620
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 3: Of the victim risk continuum.

621
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 6: So statistically, the lower it shows up, the higher probability

622
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 6: he was a selected target.

623
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 7: Wow.

624
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,760
Speaker 6: So my first question to Noah would have been, Noah,

625
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 6: do you know why we're here today?

626
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 2: No? No, no, sir, yeah, no worries, no worries.

627
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 6: Many, tell me a little bit about your life.

628
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm a podcaster. I do a show with two

629
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,760
Speaker 2: living friends of mine, Devin and Manny.

630
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

631
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 2: I see them once a week, usually in the studio

632
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 2: when recording. And that's that's about it. Though, have a wife?

633
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 3: Cool? Where'd you grow up?

634
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:49,879
Speaker 2: Connecticut?

635
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,760
Speaker 6: What I'm doing is I'm asking him questions that I

636
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 6: already know I'm going to get the answers to. Do

637
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 6: you know why we live three lives. It's our public,

638
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 6: our private life, and our secret life. Like that, our

639
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 6: secret life is where murder then all this other stuff

640
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 6: takes place.

641
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 3: Okay.

642
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 6: So my line of questioning for the very first question

643
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,760
Speaker 6: to him was you know why you're here to see

644
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 6: how he's going to answer. And what he did is

645
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 6: he answered me and what persona public persona? Of course

646
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 6: I already knew that, okay, So I threw him a

647
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 6: bait question to see if he was going to say,

648
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 6: does this have anything to do with Devon.

649
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 3: Or anything like that?

650
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,800
Speaker 6: Well, so the answer is no, okay, So he didn't

651
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,720
Speaker 6: even take me to his private life. His private life

652
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 6: is where Devon and he are buds. And so what

653
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 6: he's doing is he's projecting this persona that he wants

654
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 6: me to hear. So what I would do is I

655
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,959
Speaker 6: would take him down this road of no problem. Let's

656
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 6: stay there, okay. And then when they start lying, hey,

657
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 6: they're covering their secret life, and it becomes very difficult

658
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 6: to do that because you can't always remember your lodge, okay.

659
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 6: And so eventually we would circle back to well, tell

660
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 6: me a little bit about Devon and his life. That's

661
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 6: what they call victimology, and we would dive into Devon

662
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 6: from what Noah may know about Devon.

663
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 3: Maybe at that point we'll say, you know, you want

664
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 3: a bag of chips, you want a coke, you want

665
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 3: a cheeseburger, you know, let's take a break.

666
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 7: You know, good?

667
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 3: And you know what I mean, right.

668
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, And I would ask you to take a sip

669
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 6: out of your coffee cup there, okay, And then I

670
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 6: would say, let me go get you a coke, or

671
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 6: let me go fill up your cup or something. Take

672
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 6: your cup and go out and hit it with a buckle, swab,

673
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 6: get your DNA that Coca cola and yeah, and then

674
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 6: come back in and hand you your cup back and sale,

675
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 6: all good, bro, Let's.

676
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 1: Keep So I'm curious that and that's perfectly legal to do,

677
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 1: to just get a swab of someone's uh, personal items

678
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: in the interrogation room.

679
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,760
Speaker 6: Yeah if if for an example, those were our coffee cups.

680
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 3: Right, Let's see, we.

681
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 6: Walk in, she wants something to drink, she absolutely and you.

682
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 3: Hand him a coffee cup. If if he hits it, okay,

683
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 3: it's mine.

684
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. So basically with with Noah's playing here, just this

685
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 1: kind of circle back, it sounds like a low success

686
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 1: rate playing and to be fair to know what he

687
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: did say, he did say before we started here that

688
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:50,919
Speaker 1: he didn't think he would be able to get away

689
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: with this.

690
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 7: I'm not going to do it.

691
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:56,280
Speaker 2: I'm not going to do it. I've been scared.

692
00:37:58,280 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 7: Now, yeah, that.

693
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 1: Was super fascinating. I've learned a lot in just that

694
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,399
Speaker 1: small amount of time. So now let's let's go over

695
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 1: to Devin's plan to do the same thing to know,

696
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,760
Speaker 1: uh and see what you might be able to glean

697
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: from this.

698
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 8: My plan is a little bit more straightforward than Noah's.

699
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:17,919
Speaker 7: We're gonna have a.

700
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 8: Boys weekend upstate, okay, and we're gonna invite Max too,

701
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 8: you know.

702
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: Okay, there's four of us.

703
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 8: Four of us strategically because I need Manny and Max

704
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 8: to drive up together, and no I'm I'm gonna pick

705
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 8: up Noah.

706
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 7: We're gonna have a great weekend planned.

707
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,919
Speaker 8: We're gonna stay for two or three days, and I'm

708
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 8: gonna have an event plan on the last day.

709
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 7: So we're gonna be driving back when it's dark.

710
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 8: Okay, I'm gonna purposely leave something in my back seat,

711
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 8: so many Manny and Max are gonna be driving back together.

712
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 7: Yeah, me and Noah are gonna be driving back together

713
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 7: in a different car. In different car. You know, it's

714
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 7: a state. The roads are pretty dark.

715
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 8: At one point, I'm going to say, hey, no you

716
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,919
Speaker 8: mind reaching in the back and grabbing me. Let's say

717
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:11,399
Speaker 8: get my bag for me. I have something in my bag,

718
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 8: some gum or something I want. As Noah takes off

719
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 8: his seatbelt to go in the back, I'm going to

720
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 8: crash the car.

721
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 2: Wow, as a bold one.

722
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 7: I'm gonna have my seatbelt on.

723
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 8: I'm going to try to crash it in the way

724
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,399
Speaker 8: that I'm going to try to hit Noah head on

725
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 8: on his side. He is now not buckled into his

726
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 8: seat at all, right, and I'm going to go for it. Hey,

727
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:39,879
Speaker 8: if I'm going to murder someone. I've got to take

728
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 8: a little bit of a I'm gonna end up a

729
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 8: little bit hurt. But I think that's I think that

730
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 8: helps with my alibi of like, why would I purposely

731
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 8: crash my car?

732
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 2: You know a really bad guy?

733
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 7: Yeah?

734
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 8: So yeah, my plan is to get into a car,

735
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 8: crash at a strategic time where Noah is not buckled in,

736
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 8: and crash into a tree on his side of the Okay.

737
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 2: All right, say it. I'm injured, but not fully there.

738
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 2: Would you then like give me a little bludgeon to

739
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,240
Speaker 2: finish the job. Like, what if I'm still alive?

740
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:12,399
Speaker 7: If you're still alive, I'm like.

741
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 2: DEVI or would you just be like a horrible accident.

742
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 8: I'm gonna wait to call the if you're still alive

743
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 8: after and you're laying on the ground, say you're outside

744
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 8: of the car. Yeah, well I'm gonna wait it out. Yeah,

745
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 8: I see how long can I go? Hour or two

746
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 8: hours later? He's still there?

747
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 1: Wow, this kind of happened in Sopranos where they got

748
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 1: in a car accident. I don't want to spoil it.

749
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 1: I mean spoiler, I'll say two characters get in a

750
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 1: car accident. One of them then just plugs the other

751
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 1: one's nose until because then it's kind of hard to tell.

752
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,839
Speaker 1: But but Chris, for the sake of simplicity, let's let's

753
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: say that Noah is killed in the car crash. He's not.

754
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 1: He's not crawling out of there. That's really interesting though.

755
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 2: It's a pretty good one.

756
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: Let's hear from Chris.

757
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 3: That is a good one, and.

758
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 6: It's just as scandalous as so. The first thing is then, obviously,

759
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 6: when the cops or the ambulances or anybody gets on

760
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 6: the scene, are you going to be there.

761
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 3: At that time?

762
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 6: Devin, I mean, oh yeah, conscious, yes, I'm there.

763
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 7: I'm hurt. Maybe even I'm calling the police.

764
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:23,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's probably smart.

765
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 8: Maybe I'm rehearsing my voice that I'm going to use

766
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 8: when I call.

767
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,240
Speaker 2: That'd be tough, you know, because they always play those.

768
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 6: Calls back the Okay, So whatever story you're going to

769
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 6: tell initially is going to be the story we're going

770
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 6: to lock you into, right, Yes, so the very first

771
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,919
Speaker 6: words out of your mouth on and that, by the way,

772
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 6: happens when you call nine one one. It doesn't happen

773
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 6: when the cops get there. So the first thing I

774
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 6: would want to do is go listen to the.

775
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 3: Nine to eleven two and here before you talk to me.

776
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, absolutely, because I want to hear. I want

777
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 3: to hear what you say about the car accident and

778
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 3: what happened.

779
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:03,879
Speaker 9: Now.

780
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 6: I'm not going to tell you that because I'm going

781
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 6: to own that. Okay, I'm gonna own that in my

782
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 6: own secret life. Okay, I'm say yeah, yeah, okay.

783
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 3: So I'm gonna tuck that. I'm gonna tuck that away, okay.

784
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 6: And so then at some point, if you're okay health wise, right,

785
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 6: you're not hurt in the injury, but Noah's messed up

786
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 6: over there with no seatbelt because he's been launched out

787
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 6: into a tree somewhere, you know, off to the side

788
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 6: of the road. The first thing I would do is

789
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,879
Speaker 6: try to get you back at the station. I want

790
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 6: to hear what you have to say about how this

791
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 6: whole thing went down.

792
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 3: You know what mistake you made? Though?

793
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 7: Oh so far, what mistake have I made?

794
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 9: No?

795
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 7: I don't.

796
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 3: You called nine one one?

797
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 7: Oh I shouldn't call nine one one.

798
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 3: No, I've got all that phone data with your location.

799
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 2: Oh wait, I.

800
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 6: Can get a search warrant and pull all of your

801
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 6: phone data on when you were making phone calls and

802
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 6: to who okay, and so what I would do is

803
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 6: lock you into a story for the very first night.

804
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 6: I would say to you, Hey, Devin, after we got

805
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 6: to know each other right and all this other stuff,

806
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 6: I would say, hey, dude, you know, thank you so

807
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 6: much for coming down tonight. I'm so sorry that your

808
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 6: friend Noah passed away. I mean, I can imagine how

809
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 6: you're feeling. How do you feel.

810
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 8: I just feel like it's all my fault. Obviously I

811
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 8: was the one driving. I feel horrible. I don't know

812
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 8: I'm going to face you know, his dog, his wife

813
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 8: now that I've done this horrible, horrible thing because I

814
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 8: just was not paying attention while I was driving.

815
00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's messed up, my friend. I totally understand. Uh,

816
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 6: just out of curiosity. Where are you going to be

817
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 6: for the next two weeks.

818
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 8: I'm going to be home. I don't know if I

819
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 8: can work. We obviously we're not recording a podcast.

820
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I gotta get a guest.

821
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: He's gonna go home. Little does he know, Noah has

822
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 1: already poisoned the tea.

823
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 3: Exactly.

824
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 6: Man of what I've just done by asking that question,

825
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 6: just out of curiosity, what are you going to do

826
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:33,800
Speaker 6: for the next two weeks? I have triggered a stress

827
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 6: mechanism internally for him.

828
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:37,760
Speaker 3: M okay.

829
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 6: So now what I've done is I'm putting back on

830
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 6: his heels because I'm gonna say. I'm gonna say, Devin,

831
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 6: thank you so much for coming down here tonight. We

832
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,240
Speaker 6: really appreciate it. I'll tell you, what if there's anything

833
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 6: else that you can remember or think of, or something

834
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 6: I didn't ask you, Okay, would you would you do

835
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 6: me a favor and reach back out to me? Is

836
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 6: that okay, Devin?

837
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 3: Would you do that?

838
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 7: Yeah?

839
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 3: Of course, absolutely, Okay, no problem, bro.

840
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 6: As you can tell, we're going to do a lot

841
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 6: of investigation on this thing, and I'll be in contact

842
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 6: with you.

843
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 3: But thank you so much. Have a good night.

844
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 6: Now, what I've done is I've kicked him out of

845
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 6: the door and bought rent space in his head.

846
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:20,720
Speaker 2: Boom.

847
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:25,399
Speaker 6: Okay, Because now you're going to go home thinking what, Devin.

848
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 8: Why do they want to talk to me? It's a

849
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 8: simple car crash, you know, like, what are you investigating?

850
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 8: What are you looking into? They must be onto me. M. Yeah, exactly.

851
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 8: Now he's got to be thinking, oh, crap, what did

852
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,879
Speaker 8: I miss? You know, what should I have done?

853
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 3: Differently?

854
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 6: Show with me leaving that planet. In Devon's mind, the

855
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 6: bigger question for him is what are they doing for

856
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:51,720
Speaker 6: the next couple of weeks.

857
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,919
Speaker 1: Let's say both of these are probably low success rates

858
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,439
Speaker 1: in terms of getting away with it. Was there one

859
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 1: plan that was better than the other, that was more feasible?

860
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 9: Yeah?

861
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 7: Who's more likely to get away from murder.

862
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 1: With these plans?

863
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 3: Uh? I think the car plan would be a lot

864
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:09,720
Speaker 3: tougher to prove.

865
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 6: I think with Noah choosing poison, that was his mistake, okay,

866
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 6: because that puts him in a whole different category. And

867
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 6: all we would have to do is connect your relationship

868
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:26,919
Speaker 6: between Noah and Devon, and you know that that relationship

869
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 6: would come from Devon's family. I would really spend a

870
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 6: lot of time with your family man and say, hey,

871
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 6: you know, what's his relationship with with Noah or with

872
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 6: this person or that person. And then it would be

873
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 6: a matter of you know, just taking your time and

874
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 6: interviewing people, and then at some point you realize, you

875
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 6: know what we used to call it DLR Okay, don't

876
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:55,439
Speaker 6: look right or doesn't sound right, because we all wear

877
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 6: this mask of this secret life, and so Noah's mask

878
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 6: would fall pretty quick.

879
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 1: This has been so fascinating and so fun to listen to.

880
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 1: Before we let you go, just to circle back to

881
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 1: that stat where there's like nearly half of these murder

882
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 1: cases are going on solved. I'm curious in your personal

883
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 1: work before you retired, After you retired, what would you

884
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 1: say the percentage of the murder cases you've worked on

885
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:20,720
Speaker 1: were cleared.

886
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 6: God blessed me. In my career, I had a ninety

887
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:31,240
Speaker 6: percent solve ability.

888
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 2: Oh my wow, Wow, it's the Michael Jordan.

889
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, I know enough to get in trouble.

890
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 3: How about that.

891
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 6: Now, it didn't mean I could put the bracelets on you, okay,

892
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:49,399
Speaker 6: But but what it did mean is I knew that

893
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 6: you knew there will be a destiny at some point.

894
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 6: So I was lucky. But I came from a group

895
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:02,720
Speaker 6: of people. My mentors were really good investigators.

896
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:04,359
Speaker 3: They did what we're doing right now.

897
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 6: I mean, look, look what I've learned here already, just

898
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:11,439
Speaker 6: about you guys. That's what's important, and that's what will

899
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 6: solve more of these these homicide cases and you guys

900
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 6: are doing good work here by allowing old knuckleheads like

901
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 6: me to talk about it.

902
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 1: All right, that was an incredible conversation. I mean, I

903
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,919
Speaker 1: feel like we had just learned so much about police work.

904
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 1: Probably not surprising that your plans were, you know, had

905
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 1: a low success rate. I guess like, it's not impossible

906
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 1: that you couldn't get away with it. His determination was that, like,

907
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure i'd get you guys.

908
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, well he was.

909
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 8: He said, to be fair, I would be more likely

910
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 8: to get away with it.

911
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,799
Speaker 1: That's true, arguing that was a little bit.

912
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 2: But you have to be a good you have to

913
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 2: be a really good actor for years. Yeah, like I

914
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 2: have a little more time on That's what That was

915
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:26,760
Speaker 2: my focus.

916
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 7: Or I need to crash good enough so I can't

917
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:30,840
Speaker 7: call anybody.

918
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, just some someone on the road has to

919
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 2: find you.

920
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:36,719
Speaker 1: But the thing too, is like we're forgetting like it

921
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 1: is about getting away with it. You might be the

922
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 1: number one suspect as long as they don't have enough.

923
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 8: It's my thing. I was like, hey, you're gonna I

924
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 8: did drive the car. You know it's me. You're not

925
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:47,839
Speaker 8: looking for anybody the guy. Now you got to prove

926
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 8: that I did this on purpose. Why would I crash

927
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 8: my car on purpose?

928
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 4: Yeah?

929
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe because of our our love affair. Yeah, and

930
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 2: I'm trying to end.

931
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 7: Don't tell, I'll tell your wife.

932
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 1: What I've learned from this episode is you probably could

933
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 1: get away with murder unless the detective was someone like Chris,

934
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 1: from this old school way of policing where they really

935
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 1: get into the community.

936
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, we should get a current day all right, Grock closer,

937
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 2: You're good? How can't I say so?

938
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 6: Croc?

939
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 1: Is this true? No such thing as a production of

940
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:39,719
Speaker 1: Kaleidoscope Content. Our executive producers are Kate Osborne and Mangeshkur.

941
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 1: The show was created by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman, and

942
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:47,759
Speaker 1: Devin Joseph. The theme and credit song was produced by

943
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:52,360
Speaker 1: me Manny. The show is mixed by Steve Bone. Special

944
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 1: thanks to our guests this week, doctor Brian Forrest from

945
00:50:56,280 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 1: the American University and Detective Chris McDonough aka McDuff. Thank

946
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us. It was such an

947
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 1: incredible conversation. For more information about this episode, visit No

948
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 1: Such Thing Dot Show and subscribe to our newsletter and

949
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: if you have feedback or a question to ask. Our

950
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 1: email is Manny Noah Deevin at gmail dot com. If

951
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 1: you're in the US, you can also leave us a

952
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,640
Speaker 1: voicemail by calling the number in the show notes. We'll

953
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 1: be back with a new episode next week.

954
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:34,080
Speaker 7: Joe A

955
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:41,359
Speaker 4: Hell's as Hell's as Hell's, as Hell's as such Thing