Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where I'm finally
Speaker 1: heading home after a trip that's served up a haboob
Speaker 1: in Arizona and an earthquake in La Chicago. Cold's actually
Speaker 1: looking pretty good at this point. It's Tuesday, March fourth,
Speaker 1: and on today's show, Big Citrus is sitting down to
Speaker 1: discuss one of the toughest tasks for diehard sports fans.
Speaker 1: How do we reconcile the love of a player's game
Speaker 1: on the court with controversy off of it? How do
Speaker 1: we react when allegation surface? And how should we respond
Speaker 1: when athletes we admire for their on field heroics do
Speaker 1: shitty things away from their sport.
Speaker 2: We'll get into it.
Speaker 1: Plus, Nashville got its big finale backlash leads to a
Speaker 1: back out, and in one conference it's love basketball and
Speaker 1: coin tosses. It's all coming up right after this Welcome
Speaker 1: back Slices. Here's what you need to know today. Athletes
Speaker 1: Unlimited Basketball wrapped over the weekend with Matty Siegrist winning
Speaker 1: the seas In four Championship title. Secrist, in her AU debut,
Speaker 1: finished the four week season with the league record seven
Speaker 1: fifty two points, defeating runner up Odyssey Simms by four
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty seven points with record attendance and community
Speaker 1: engagement in Nashville. Athletes Unlimited announced that they will be
Speaker 1: returning on a multi year deal for AU Pro Basketball
Speaker 1: to be in Music City in twenty twenty six and
Speaker 1: beyond to Pro hoops. WNBA expansion team Toronto Tempo announced
Speaker 1: on Monday the team has a new member of its
Speaker 1: ownership group and it's a name you might recognize, Serena Williams.
Speaker 1: It's the second women's pro team Williams has invested in.
Speaker 1: She and her husband Alexis o'hannion also became co owners
Speaker 1: of the NWSL's Angels City FC in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 1: Pera Toronto press release, Williams will also play an active
Speaker 1: role in helping design jerseys and in creating quote unique
Speaker 1: merchandise collaborations end quote. We are excited the rollout all
Speaker 1: the visuals for her joining the team. So good to
Speaker 1: soccer where Naomi Germa made her day viue for Chelsea
Speaker 1: over the weekend and fifty nine minutes into the contest
Speaker 1: against Brighton, she suffered an injury.
Speaker 2: Germa had to be subbed out.
Speaker 1: It's not yet clear how serious the injury is, but
Speaker 1: you hate to see it.
Speaker 2: The match ended in a two to two draw.
Speaker 1: Will keep you updated, and we're sending good vibes to
Speaker 1: Naomi and hoping she gets back on the pitch soon.
Speaker 2: More soccer.
Speaker 1: We told you last month about BFC's decision to hire
Speaker 1: Graham Abel as the club's director of domestic scouting, despite
Speaker 1: an investigation from The Oregonian into his tenure as head
Speaker 1: coach of the UFO in which more than a dozen
Speaker 1: players alleged that he was verbally abusive. At the time
Speaker 1: that that investigation was published, Abel denied the allegations to
Speaker 1: The Oregonian.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 1: Just a week after his hiring was announced, and with
Speaker 1: BFC receiving lots of backlash for the move, Abel has
Speaker 1: agreed to resign from his post. In a statement to ESPN,
Speaker 1: Abel said, in part, quote me joining the club has
Speaker 1: become a distraction, which is not fair to the team
Speaker 1: and players, so I've made the difficult decision to resign.
Speaker 1: The team should be focusing on what's most important, playing
Speaker 1: the game they love and competing for a championship end quote.
Speaker 1: ESPN also reported that BFC was aware of the allegations
Speaker 1: against Abel prior to hiring him, and that the league
Speaker 1: also signed off on his appointment. So while Abele is out,
Speaker 1: lots of questions still about the hiring practices that led
Speaker 1: to this in the first place. To College Hoops, USC
Speaker 1: clinched the Big Ten regular season title over the weekend,
Speaker 1: and Juju Watkins continued to make her case for Player
Speaker 1: of the Year honors. The sophomore star recorded thirty points,
Speaker 1: five assists, two steals, and three blocks in USC's second
Speaker 1: win of the season over crosstown rival UCLA. And get this,
Speaker 1: Juju Watkins has now scored thirty plus points in her
Speaker 1: last four games against UCLA. The win paid off in
Speaker 1: the EP rankings two, which were updated on Monday. USC
Speaker 1: and UCLA flip flopped, with USC now at number two
Speaker 1: and UCLA at number four in SEC hoops, unranked ol
Speaker 1: misvisited at number seven LSU on Sunday and gave us
Speaker 1: another upset to buzz about.
Speaker 2: Coach yo Lett.
Speaker 1: Mcew and squad surged back from a thirteen point halftime deficit.
Speaker 1: Thanks to a thirty two point thirty quarter and some
Speaker 1: stifling defense, they pulled out the upset eighty five seventy
Speaker 1: seven Colorado transferred to Mia Sadler paced Ole Miss with
Speaker 1: nineteen points and five steals. Starred Jacobs and KK Dean's
Speaker 1: added eighteen and seventeen points, respectively, also got a shout out.
Speaker 1: LSU's Anissa Morrow twenty eight points and twelve rebounds and
Speaker 1: her one hundredth career double double. She's now one of
Speaker 1: only two players at NC double A D one history
Speaker 1: to post that. Many also want to note that LSU
Speaker 1: was without Flaje Johnson for the first time this season.
Speaker 2: Due to shin inflammation.
Speaker 1: Coach Kim Moulki told Reporter's post game that Flage won't
Speaker 1: play in the SEC tournament in hopes that she'll be
Speaker 1: ready to go for the NC Double A tournament, which
Speaker 1: begins March nineteenth.
Speaker 2: We're setting Eland bibes your way, Flage a little more.
Speaker 1: SEC Hoops Conference tournament starts tomorrow and don S Day.
Speaker 1: South Carolina Game Cocks are the top seed thanks to
Speaker 1: hold on, let me make sure I'm reading this right.
Speaker 1: A coin flip, Yeah, a coin flip. South Carolina and
Speaker 1: Texas both finished fifteen to one in the SEC and
Speaker 1: were named Core Bigler's season champs.
Speaker 2: But to determine tourney seating, one team had.
Speaker 1: To prevail, and the first two tiebreaker rules couldn't determine
Speaker 1: a winner. So when teams have the same record, advantage
Speaker 1: goes to the group with a better record in their
Speaker 1: head to head matchups, and then did the team with
Speaker 1: a better win loss record against other teams in the league.
Speaker 1: While the Longhorns and the game Cocks split the head
Speaker 1: to head in the regular season, and then they lost
Speaker 1: to nobody else.
Speaker 2: So it's bizarre.
Speaker 1: But the last option was to have Conference Commissioner Greg
Speaker 1: Sankie flip a coin. Dot Staley wasn't a fan of
Speaker 1: the move until the game Cox won, when she said, quote,
Speaker 1: I feel a little better about it now end quote.
Speaker 2: More college hoops.
Speaker 1: Paige Becker's was inducted into Yukon's Huskies of Honor during
Speaker 1: the program's Senior Day celebration this weekend, and a banner
Speaker 1: was unveiled to honor her after the team's game against Marquette,
Speaker 1: which Yukon won ninety two fifty seven.
Speaker 2: Take it quick. Listen how she started her speech, thank
Speaker 2: you guys for.
Speaker 3: Coming out, thank you for an amazing four or five
Speaker 3: six years?
Speaker 2: Did she say six years? Six? Interesting?
Speaker 1: Just a reminder, Beckers is currently in her fifth year
Speaker 1: at Yukon, and while all signs indicate she's headed for
Speaker 1: the WNBA draft next month, she does technically have an
Speaker 1: option to return for a sixth year if she wants,
Speaker 1: given that she read shirted a season due to injury. Finally,
Speaker 1: USA Today has announced its honorees for twenty twenty five
Speaker 1: Women of the Year, and three women in sports were
Speaker 1: named national winners. President of the Women's Sports Foundation and
Speaker 1: Paralympic athletes Scout Bassett, rugby superstar Alon Omar and reigning
Speaker 1: WNBA champ with the New York Liberty John Quell Jones,
Speaker 1: also Kansas native and Texas Tech softball star Nijerie Kennedy,
Speaker 1: Connecticut Sun president Jennifer Rozzotti, and Pacers Sports and Entertainment
Speaker 1: CEO Mel Rains, who's the top exec for the Pacers
Speaker 1: and the Fever, were each named the Women of the
Speaker 1: Year for their respective states Kansas, Connecticut, and Indiana. Congrats
Speaker 1: to all six winners, but also, seriously, though, what is
Speaker 1: with all these outlets naming women of the Year before
Speaker 1: we're even a quarter into twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2: It's confusing. We got to take a quick break.
Speaker 1: When we come back, it's time for Big Citrus to
Speaker 1: reconvene and just to quick heads up during our upcoming conversation,
Speaker 1: I do mention descriptions of alleged sexual assault. It's later
Speaker 1: in the discussion, but want to give you heads up
Speaker 1: in case it's something you want to fast.
Speaker 2: Forward through welcome back slices.
Speaker 1: We felt like nows time for kind of a tough conversation,
Speaker 1: but a necessary one because we're nearing the NCAA Basketball Tournament.
Speaker 1: We're super excited about all the parody at the highest level.
Speaker 1: What is expected to be a thrilling, chaotic, insane march madness,
Speaker 1: chalk full of superstars, chalk full of teams that could
Speaker 1: beat the next team. But we're also about to face
Speaker 1: sort of head on one of the ultimate conflicts for
Speaker 1: a lot of sports fans. How do you reconcile the
Speaker 1: love of a player's game on the court with controversy
Speaker 1: off of it. This is something we've talked about and
Speaker 1: touched on briefly a couple of times throughout the season.
Speaker 1: But just to remind you, this year's tournament will feature
Speaker 1: Notre Dame star Hannah Hidalgo, who notably shared an anti
Speaker 1: gay post on social media. We'll see TCUs Sedona Prince,
Speaker 1: who's facing accusations from ex partners of both physical and
Speaker 1: verbal abuse, and South Carolina had Ashland Watkins return mid
Speaker 1: season after first degree assault and battery and kidnapping charges
Speaker 1: were dismissed after she did a pre trial intervention.
Speaker 2: Now Watkins is going to miss the tournament.
Speaker 1: She suffered an ACL tear, But there are still some
Speaker 1: questions that folks had about Don Staley and the team welcoming.
Speaker 2: Her back after all of that.
Speaker 1: So we're thinking about that all season long, and then
Speaker 1: we get a question from Slice Amanda Vaalo that sort
Speaker 1: of brings it back up to the forefront, which is,
Speaker 1: in her words, the human condition. She writes, Kobe Bryant
Speaker 1: is always included in goat conversations and idolized in the
Speaker 1: growth of women's sports. He's also a person who admittedly
Speaker 1: cheated on his wife and very possibly raped a nineteen
Speaker 1: year old. I can't help but think about this young
Speaker 1: woman every time I hear another WNBA star Juel Lloyd
Speaker 1: Sabrina Aliah Edwards pay tribute to him as their greatest
Speaker 1: influence and mentor, much like they always note the other
Speaker 1: lives that were lost when the helicopter went down. Shouldn't
Speaker 1: his legacy include that he harmed women in a lifelong,
Speaker 1: scarring way. The only journalists I've ever heard speak to
Speaker 1: this is Sarah. Could you please say more? How did
Speaker 1: those of us who love women's sport hold both Kobe
Speaker 1: did some great things for women and the black Mama
Speaker 1: mentality really hurt and preyed upon them. Amanda, This is
Speaker 1: a great question, and it's a conversation that I've had
Speaker 1: for years because of how often I've tried to speak
Speaker 1: to issues of domestic violence, sexual assault, homophobia, you know,
Speaker 1: issues that intersect with sports so often and are very
Speaker 1: hard to talk about and are very hard to reconcile
Speaker 1: with the players that we love, particularly if they come
Speaker 1: up after we've been watching them for years and have
Speaker 1: already made very definitive fandom decisions about them. So I
Speaker 1: wanted to bring big citriest together to talk about this
Speaker 1: and see if the way that we personally handle it
Speaker 1: is useful or helpful to anybody else in there trying to,
Speaker 1: you know, hold both things and figure it out. We
Speaker 1: can maybe talk about the Kobe thing later, but I
Speaker 1: think it's useful to see if either of you have
Speaker 1: very specific ways you process this stuff, or if it's
Speaker 1: a case by case spaces.
Speaker 3: Honestly, Sarah like the underlying response for me, I don't
Speaker 3: have like a here's your step by step how to
Speaker 3: parts out whether or not you can be a fan
Speaker 3: or not be a fan, Like, I don't have a
Speaker 3: checklist for anybody. But one thing I will say is,
Speaker 3: and I've had to change this over time, right, so
Speaker 3: some context, I've grown up watching women's basketball, specifically my
Speaker 3: entire life, you know what I mean. Like, I'm a
Speaker 3: fan fan, capital fan fan. But I got a job
Speaker 3: beat writing for the Washington Mystics, not for the team,
Speaker 3: but for a blog that covered the team, and very
Speaker 3: quickly I had to flip that switch in my brain
Speaker 3: to be like, oh, these are whole people, and that's
Speaker 3: the issue I think that's underlying here. I think a
Speaker 3: lot of folks, a lot of sports fans, a lot
Speaker 3: of fans of celebrities and entertainment generally, we have a
Speaker 3: tendency to put people on this pedestal, right, and we
Speaker 3: never really talk about the whole person. So when we
Speaker 3: have controversy come up or allegations come up, it's like, uh,
Speaker 3: it throws us into a tizzy.
Speaker 2: So that's where to me it all starts.
Speaker 3: It's like, first and foremost, we have to get out
Speaker 3: of the habit of treating athletes, entertainers, musicians as like
Speaker 3: heroes and what have you.
Speaker 1: The myth makes is what does it It's like because
Speaker 1: they're great at this thing, they must be a great person,
Speaker 1: which when those things are not correlated at all.
Speaker 3: No, And the better we can be generally speaking about
Speaker 3: understanding that, the less I think this would shock people's systems,
Speaker 3: but also I think the more we could openly talk
Speaker 3: about stuff like with Sedona for example, I hadn't heard
Speaker 3: Jack squat about what was going on with her in
Speaker 3: big media publications. I had seen a lot on TikTok
Speaker 3: I you know, was it verified confirmed? Not necessarily, but
Speaker 3: you know, those rumors were swirling. And when all of
Speaker 3: this came out and I can't remember who wrote the
Speaker 3: story that we just talked about.
Speaker 4: Molly Hensley Clancy of the Washington Post.
Speaker 3: Thank you for that that we just talked about recently
Speaker 3: on the show. Molly mentioned, Yeah, people have been talking
Speaker 3: about this for months, but nobody had talked about it
Speaker 3: on ESPN or you know, wherever else you get your
Speaker 3: wide ranging vetted sports Yeah, you're vetted sports news, and
Speaker 3: so you know, it just has this weird vibe to
Speaker 3: it where some people are like, well, we know what's happening,
Speaker 3: but y'all are still continuing to celebrate, you know, this
Speaker 3: young lady, and some people turn that into well we
Speaker 3: shouldn't be talking about her at all. It's like you
Speaker 3: have to talk about her because she's one of the
Speaker 3: best players.
Speaker 2: In the country.
Speaker 3: But the more we can understand people as whole people,
Speaker 3: I think, the easier it becomes to have real conversations
Speaker 3: about the fuck them should they do?
Speaker 1: I agree, and I want to quickly just point to
Speaker 1: something you said, like, I think what's very difficult as
Speaker 1: journalists is to understand that there can be TikTok's made
Speaker 1: and tweet scent that are saying with surety that they
Speaker 1: know what happened, and if you actually were to follow
Speaker 1: up with them, they would say, well, this is what
Speaker 1: I heard from this person who heard it from this person,
Speaker 1: And when you are trying to operate in a journalistic sense,
Speaker 1: you can't go off of that. And also, in fairness
Speaker 1: to all people, understanding how rumors can spread online, understanding
Speaker 1: how much people who don't have skin in the game
Speaker 1: and aren't working in the.
Speaker 2: Business can say things and not care whether they're true
Speaker 2: or not.
Speaker 1: There's no accountability for spreading a rumor if you're not
Speaker 1: someone in the biz, and so I think you have
Speaker 1: to try to be aware of accusations and consider it
Speaker 1: of them when you're talking about these athletes and having
Speaker 1: these conversations, but also to presume facts based on things
Speaker 1: like tiktoks, which is where a lot of these people
Speaker 1: say like, oh, it's been out there, everybody should know
Speaker 1: this by now. Is a very slippery slope and it's
Speaker 1: very unfair to a lot of people who might get
Speaker 1: caught up in it.
Speaker 3: And to that end, though, this is why I think
Speaker 3: we need We always say we need more women's sports media,
Speaker 3: but this is why we need not less vetted sources necessarily,
Speaker 3: but more shows that get into okay, but what is
Speaker 3: the pulse of what's happening in this space like it.
Speaker 2: That's a big part of the gap in women's sports media.
Speaker 2: I think, well, and.
Speaker 1: Alex you always talk about the gap in just people
Speaker 1: who are covering these things, who are getting paid to
Speaker 1: do the work and be there every day and actually
Speaker 1: be able to report on this correctly.
Speaker 4: Yeah. When I did account last year of the number
Speaker 4: of reporters who cover women's sports as their full time job,
Speaker 4: I couldn't get past fifteen.
Speaker 2: That's all of North America. I had to include a
Speaker 2: couple of Canadians in there.
Speaker 4: I think the number's probably gone up by you know, two,
Speaker 4: a handful. So for me, one of the things that
Speaker 4: I often come back to here is the role of
Speaker 4: the media, and I think one of the things that
Speaker 4: doesn't often get talked about is the inherent conflicts of
Speaker 4: interests that occur in sports broadcasting. It's a field unlike
Speaker 4: any other in that you have these companies NBC and
Speaker 4: Fox and ESPN and Amazon and all the rest of
Speaker 4: them that are paying leagues millions, billions of dollars in
Speaker 4: order to broadcast a product, a product that is entertainment
Speaker 4: that they are selling ads off of. So then to
Speaker 4: expect those broadcasters to tell well rounded stories about problematic
Speaker 4: people isn't always happening. I think the other part of
Speaker 4: it that often comes up in sports, and I've been
Speaker 4: a part of a lot of conversations where there's a
Speaker 4: problematic athlete, there's something that came up.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's even about doping.
Speaker 4: Right like that is something that literally impacts the competition field,
Speaker 4: and oftentimes though it's handled in the pregame show and
Speaker 4: then all the people tune in half an hour later
Speaker 4: to watch the actual sport and it never gets mentioned again.
Speaker 4: So I struggle with how to integrate that a little
Speaker 4: bit more sometimes so that we are getting a more
Speaker 4: well rounded idea of who the person is during the
Speaker 4: supporting event itself. And I don't know how to reconcile that,
Speaker 4: but I think that the difference in media space and
Speaker 4: what those media outlets are providing in terms of information
Speaker 4: versus journalism versus entertainment plays a really big role here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it plays a huge role in educating people.
Speaker 1: And I had those conversations internally, especially at places like ESPN,
Speaker 1: where you do know that the millions of people watching
Speaker 1: the game are going to hear you praise that person
Speaker 1: over and over and if you don't use the correct
Speaker 1: language the one time you mention that they have accusations
Speaker 1: have been said, you say made a mistake about someone
Speaker 1: who punched a woman or had an incident, instead of
Speaker 1: using specific language. You're making very clear that you prioritize
Speaker 1: the mythologizing of them as an athlete over the realities
Speaker 1: of their situation. But all that being said, when we
Speaker 1: do find out these things, when it does get to
Speaker 1: us via established media or via social media, and enough
Speaker 1: folks talking about it or the athlete's own actions, like
Speaker 1: in the case of Hanna Hidalgo posting that stuff, we
Speaker 1: then as fans have a decision to make.
Speaker 2: And there are a lot of fans who just want
Speaker 2: to watch the game. They consider it an escape for them.
Speaker 1: I think most of those fans, but not all, have
Speaker 1: a bit of a privilege of being able to separate
Speaker 1: the issues that play many parts of society from.
Speaker 2: The sports role.
Speaker 1: But if you are, for instance, a woman, and you
Speaker 1: are being asked repeatedly to ignore that a man has
Speaker 1: been credibly accused multiple times of domestic violence or sexual
Speaker 1: abuse but you should still root for them.
Speaker 2: That's a little more difficult.
Speaker 1: If you are a queer person and you're being asked
Speaker 1: to ignore that someone is homophobic, If you are a
Speaker 1: person of color and you're being asked to ignore someone's
Speaker 1: racist remarks, all of these things are much more personal
Speaker 1: to certain fans than maybe other fans who are like
Speaker 1: I just want to escape, right.
Speaker 2: So I can give you a specific example.
Speaker 1: This really solidified it for me because in the moment
Speaker 1: I felt sort of hypocritical. I had already had to
Speaker 1: face Patrick Kane on the Chicago Blackhawks, my hockey team,
Speaker 1: being accused of sexual assault. I had already had to
Speaker 1: face Eraaldus Chapman being signed by my favorite baseball team,
Speaker 1: the Chicago Cubs and being a part of their World
Speaker 1: Series run after getting suspended for domestic violence and shooting
Speaker 1: a gun around his partner. I had already had these
Speaker 1: people that were in my sports sphere that I was
Speaker 1: a fan of or at least a fan of the team,
Speaker 1: and had to make a decision of I don't want
Speaker 1: to root for that person anymore, while I still want
Speaker 1: to root for that team.
Speaker 2: But then this weird instance happened with Sewn.
Speaker 1: White, the snowboarder, where I was watching the Olympics like
Speaker 1: live and saw him have this great finish and tweeted
Speaker 1: like that's so exciting his last Olympics, like so cool
Speaker 1: to see him get it done, And people started sliding
Speaker 1: into my mentions with hey, did you see about this,
Speaker 1: like the former drummer of his band had filed a
Speaker 1: suit alleging sexual harassment, sexual assault, sexually explicit messages like
Speaker 1: using his power and position within the band to make
Speaker 1: her life awful, and so in that moment, I could
Speaker 1: either get defensive and start to push back on oh,
Speaker 1: I don't know about that, or.
Speaker 2: Well is it proven?
Speaker 1: Or I could say this, this is a line I've
Speaker 1: made for myself personally, and when someone crosses it, I
Speaker 1: can decide that I don't want to root for them
Speaker 1: any more. That's not to say guilty before being proven so,
Speaker 1: but it is to say, I'm gonna step back from
Speaker 1: this fandom and go read these accusations and be thoughtful
Speaker 1: about how I feel about them. And I think for
Speaker 1: me that was a turning point, mainly because I had
Speaker 1: to reconcile, like, if I'm going to be open about
Speaker 1: writing these stories and covering athletes like you know, ray
Speaker 1: Rice and other athletes that I've covered in the past,
Speaker 1: I can't then make different rules for my teams and
Speaker 1: athletes that I'm a fan of.
Speaker 2: And that's the tough part me.
Speaker 1: She's like, I'm sure you've been there where, Like I
Speaker 1: already decided I like this person and their grand Sarah.
Speaker 3: The biggest example of exactly that conundrum Cynthia Cooper, one
Speaker 3: of the best women's basketball players of all time, arguably
Speaker 3: to some people the goat, won four straight chips with
Speaker 3: the Houston Comments in the WNBA four Time Finals MVP
Speaker 3: like you name it, Coops there, but also a few
Speaker 3: years back had a bunch of her former players when
Speaker 3: she was a college coach accused her of just saying
Speaker 3: really ugly, really demeaning, demoralizing stuff, abusive behavior, sexually leude
Speaker 3: comments like called a player allegedly a sorry ass virgin,
Speaker 3: like all of this horrible stuff. I will never forget
Speaker 3: the day that I read that article.
Speaker 2: It was I literally cried.
Speaker 3: I literally cried because I was like, it was that again,
Speaker 3: that same thing I talked about when I had the
Speaker 3: Mystics job, Like I had to really face the reality of, oh,
Speaker 3: this is a whole person that's not just made of
Speaker 3: what she did on a basketball court. At the end
Speaker 3: of the day, allegations are true or not. You can't
Speaker 3: ignore stuff like that. To this day, I still struggle
Speaker 3: with that. Like in the WNBA, she's recognized in the
Speaker 3: WNBA is getting better at recognizing some of the pioneers
Speaker 3: and some of the folks who were stars before you know,
Speaker 3: this era of basketball. But whenever she's mentioned or she
Speaker 3: was an honorary coach for something very recently, and I
Speaker 3: was like, man, that's it's hard for me to not
Speaker 3: just be okay with that but just balance all of
Speaker 3: who she is. And I can't say that I've figured out,
Speaker 3: you know, where my line is. I think it really depends.
Speaker 3: I think what you just talked about, you know, in
Speaker 3: terms of I'm black, I'm queer, Like there's a lot
Speaker 3: of stuff that is already just going to be a
Speaker 3: hard line in the sand for me. And I'm the
Speaker 3: kind of person who I always kind of want to
Speaker 3: draw a hard line in the sand. But realizing that
Speaker 3: that's just it's a short road to not having a
Speaker 3: fandom of literally anybody, because we can't have shit anymore
Speaker 3: without people.
Speaker 2: You know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Well, And it's more difficult in the women's sports space too,
Speaker 1: because in the past there was a lot of parachuting
Speaker 1: in to report on salacious stories of wrongdoing without any
Speaker 1: other coverage, So it felt like you wanted to protect
Speaker 1: women athletes from only being covered when they did wrong.
Speaker 1: But then that protection of someone because they're a woman
Speaker 1: doesn't feel right now, and it feels like an overcorrection.
Speaker 3: It feels like we're treating women athletes with kid gloves
Speaker 3: right now.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 1: I think Ashton Watkins is an example of that, where
Speaker 1: we love Don Staley so much, but if this was
Speaker 1: a men's team, would we have had a lot more
Speaker 1: to say about a coach welcoming someone back mid season
Speaker 1: right after those accusations. I think Britney Grinder is a
Speaker 1: great example of that. There is so much to love
Speaker 1: about Britney Grinder and she's become another sort of like
Speaker 1: heroic figure, but she has allegations of abuse in her past,
Speaker 1: and when it's women, we tend to have different opinions
Speaker 1: about particularly same sex relationship abuse than we do when
Speaker 1: it's men and women.
Speaker 4: Another thing I try to keep in mind with all
Speaker 4: of this is making sure that I'm not creating false
Speaker 4: equivalencies between people and between allegations. I think sometimes what
Speaker 4: will happen is their allegations made against someone and it's like, oh,
Speaker 4: we're putting them in the bad column now, and it's like,
Speaker 4: well that's not fair either. There are certain people that
Speaker 4: belong in the bad column, and there are other people
Speaker 4: that belong in the complicated column and the to be
Speaker 4: investigated further column. I think the other thing that happens
Speaker 4: a lot in women's sports. To use an example, Britta Curl,
Speaker 4: the hockey player for PWHL Minnesota. Back when she was
Speaker 4: drafted last year, there was backlash because she had posted
Speaker 4: and reposted tweets that were transphobic and racist. And one
Speaker 4: of the things that I struggled with with that is
Speaker 4: I think that fans have a right to respond with
Speaker 4: how they feel about Curl being drafted, But I don't
Speaker 4: think anyone in that press conference asked Brita about those tweets.
Speaker 4: And I think sometimes that happens in women's sports. And
Speaker 4: I don't want to blame the reporters that were there,
Speaker 4: because I'm sure a lot of them probably weren't even
Speaker 4: being paid, because that is the reality in women's sports.
Speaker 4: But what ends up happening sometimes, and this even gets
Speaker 4: to the point about tiktoks, is you have people that
Speaker 4: have this narrative that has been built, and then when
Speaker 4: you say, oh, has anyone.
Speaker 2: Actually asked the athlete?
Speaker 4: And sometimes the pr people that are in charge are
Speaker 4: making it impossible to ask the athlete. I think that
Speaker 4: happened a few years ago Jaylen Daniels, who previous refused
Speaker 4: to play with the US women's national team when they
Speaker 4: were wearing Pride jerseys. She got signed by the North
Speaker 4: Carolina Courage, and I don't think they made her available
Speaker 4: all season long.
Speaker 2: But there are other times.
Speaker 4: Where the athlete is made available and no one asks
Speaker 4: the question. And I think it is unfair to the
Speaker 4: athlete in those cases to be writing about the narrative
Speaker 4: without giving them a chance to respond, clarify, provide more details.
Speaker 4: It's just one of those things that I think comes
Speaker 4: along with journalism that you have to do.
Speaker 1: And I think one of the things that I've learned
Speaker 1: over the years of having these like really definitive, like
Speaker 1: to your point, bad column thoughts about people even ten
Speaker 1: or fifteen years ago in this business, I as I'm
Speaker 1: mature as an adult, I want them to evolve and change.
Speaker 1: I want to be able to say that you're not
Speaker 1: ruined because of either bad you know, messaging and thoughts
Speaker 1: or actions.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: You know, there is a part of me that has
Speaker 1: a real sort of I hesitate to even say it,
Speaker 1: but like empathy for Ray Rice as somebody who actually
Speaker 1: did all the stuff after the incident with his fiance
Speaker 1: to try to get better, but will always be held
Speaker 1: up as the one example, while there are people who
Speaker 1: have not tried to get better, have not done the work,
Speaker 1: have not been proactive, have not been open with their
Speaker 1: alleged rehabilitation, and why they won't be recidivous and they
Speaker 1: don't get the same publicity because that's how it works
Speaker 1: sort of in the media space, is like the big
Speaker 1: first story or the one that has the video, or
Speaker 1: the one with the person with the biggest name. And
Speaker 1: so I want to also say that what is the
Speaker 1: point of calling people out for this behavior if we
Speaker 1: aren't allowing them the potential to change and grow and
Speaker 1: get better. But also we should not be required to
Speaker 1: forgive if there is no proof of change. And that
Speaker 1: is where the biggest issue for me always is, is
Speaker 1: like people will say that was five years ago, or
Speaker 1: why are you still talking about that? And I'm like,
Speaker 1: because this person has never spoken about, addressed, acknowledged, been
Speaker 1: held accountable and responsible for, and so why would I
Speaker 1: believe that they've changed? And so I think I'm trying
Speaker 1: to be the kind of person that can hold both
Speaker 1: and say I do hold you accountable. I will not
Speaker 1: root for you, and I hope for you and everyone
Speaker 1: around you that you actually get what you need to
Speaker 1: change and get better. Because we punish for punitive's sake
Speaker 1: and not for rehabilitative sake, we publish for performative publicity,
Speaker 1: and then there's no follow up from teams about why
Speaker 1: we should believe that there won't be recidivism. We need
Speaker 1: that second half of accountability for us as fans to say, Okay,
Speaker 1: I think this person has learned and changed and gotten better.
Speaker 3: That's exactly what we talked about with Corbyn Albert. That
Speaker 3: whole situation too right, when we've had multiple people want
Speaker 3: to talk about her. But you know, from all accounts,
Speaker 3: it seems like that's being handled in house, which like fair,
Speaker 3: you know, totally fair. But as a fan personally of
Speaker 3: the US of his national team, it's like I would.
Speaker 2: Love to see the receipts just so I can personally
Speaker 2: feel a little bit. You know, I don't know better
Speaker 2: about the situation.
Speaker 1: Well, and I think what Sam Muis said is right.
Speaker 1: If the acts are public, then the rehabilitation can't be
Speaker 1: entirely private. Yes, handle an interior, but you need to
Speaker 1: have some statements or progress reports or something. It can't
Speaker 1: just be like, oh, we're handling it, trust us. I'll
Speaker 1: briefly talk about Kobe Bryant because I got a lot
Speaker 1: of death threats actually, and like had to call the
Speaker 1: police after I wrote that story. When he passed away,
Speaker 1: I was deeply confused. I was crying about him, about
Speaker 1: the little girls, about the families, about who he had
Speaker 1: become as a person after his basketball career. And also
Speaker 1: I was sitting in my hotel I just landed in
Speaker 1: Miami for the Super Bowl. I was covering the week
Speaker 1: of content stuff and turned on the Grand's and Alicia
Speaker 1: Keys started that ceremony, saying that we felt like maybe
Speaker 1: we shouldn't even have this tonight because we all lost
Speaker 1: a hero. And I imagined the woman that alleges that
Speaker 1: he raped her hearing on this giant stage, not even
Speaker 1: a sports stage, this person being described as a hero.
Speaker 1: And I imagine every sexual assault victim trying to move forward,
Speaker 1: understanding that the world will whitewash what happened to them
Speaker 1: in pursuit of this heroic mythological narrative that we assigned
Speaker 1: to great athletes and for those who don't remember. In
Speaker 1: two thousand and three, Kobe Bryant allegedly asked nineteen year
Speaker 1: old concierge at a hotel to give him a tour.
Speaker 1: According to reports, the inviterer back to his room. According
Speaker 1: to the woman, he groped her, grabbed her neck to
Speaker 1: keep her from leaving, turned her around, pushed he against
Speaker 1: a chair, and raped her. According to the police transcript
Speaker 1: of an interview taking with her the next day, she
Speaker 1: said no several times. She said that he repeatedly said,
Speaker 1: you're not going to tell anyone, right. She told a
Speaker 1: bellman front at the hotel immediately after the incident and
Speaker 1: reported it to the police the next day, and a
Speaker 1: hospital exam revealed tears in her vaginal wall and a
Speaker 1: bruise on her neck. There was blood on her underwear.
Speaker 1: There was blood on briant shirt. She told the police.
Speaker 1: He told authorities that it was consensual, despite him not
Speaker 1: explicitly asking for consent, and he was eventually charged with
Speaker 1: melony sexual assault and they went to trial. But during
Speaker 1: that fourteen months, friends of hers and family members even
Speaker 1: sold stories, some of them a twist on the truth.
Speaker 1: Some of them outright lies, and she ended up getting
Speaker 1: death threats. Her photos were released, her name was publicly
Speaker 1: used multiple times even though it was supposed to be protected,
Speaker 1: and she became physically ill. As the trial approach, she
Speaker 1: decided to drop the charges. There was a civil case
Speaker 1: settled non disclosure agreement. She's not been able to speak
Speaker 1: about the incident since, and Kobe used that NDA also
Speaker 1: to avoid speaking about it for the rest of his
Speaker 1: life as well. When I wrote that story, I tried
Speaker 1: to understand how we can remember a person as a
Speaker 1: person and not just a resume, and how we, when
Speaker 1: we think about our own mortality, would love to be
Speaker 1: remembered as only.
Speaker 2: The best parts of ourselves.
Speaker 1: But how both for his victim and other victims alleged victim,
Speaker 1: when we do that, it is I can't even imagine
Speaker 1: the pain that someone feels. And so I tried to
Speaker 1: write to all the ways that he seemed like he
Speaker 1: was a wonderful person and cared about change, and was
Speaker 1: open about demons, and was doing amazing things in the
Speaker 1: women's sports space. And also these are the accusations, and
Speaker 1: this is the reality of what allegedly happened. And I
Speaker 1: think that's the answer for me is trying to hold
Speaker 1: both but also to not allow myself to make excuses
Speaker 1: for the people I want to like in a way
Speaker 1: that ignores that there are some really charming people, some
Speaker 1: really talented people, some really successful people who also do
Speaker 1: bad things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I also think the important thing to remember is,
Speaker 3: like we're talking about allegations of some horrible stuff, but
Speaker 3: all of us, in our day to day lives, in
Speaker 3: the lives we've led to this point, we've been the villain.
Speaker 2: You know what I mean, we have all been the villain.
Speaker 2: We've all done shitty things, We've all you know.
Speaker 3: It just to me has been a realization at twenty seven,
Speaker 3: at this ripe old age. You know, it's been a
Speaker 3: reminder that, Okay, everybody is human and we do need
Speaker 3: to learn how to hold space for people who are
Speaker 3: in community with generally speaking.
Speaker 2: As well, because it just feels like the best course
Speaker 2: of action.
Speaker 1: And I agree with that, and I think especially as
Speaker 1: they get older, especially with a lot of the research
Speaker 1: I did for my book, understanding how the traumas that happened.
Speaker 2: To people create the people that they become.
Speaker 1: Right, Like, most of people doing these things probably had
Speaker 1: things that happened to them that a lot of the
Speaker 1: people that we talk about, maybe even especially in like
Speaker 1: queer relationships where there's abuse or otherwise, like what are
Speaker 1: they bringing to that relationship from what society has told
Speaker 1: them about themselves?
Speaker 2: And like all of that.
Speaker 1: And also what I will say me is just when
Speaker 1: I've report on this stuff for years in the past,
Speaker 1: the number one thing people would come to me with
Speaker 1: like you're perfect, And that to me is not an
Speaker 1: answer to holding people accountable for bad things. The fact
Speaker 1: that we're all human, we've all done shitty things or
Speaker 1: been the villain, is not the same as we shouldn't
Speaker 1: talk about or hold people accountable because we're all human. No,
Speaker 1: because not all of us are committing domestic violence, sexual assault, etc.
Speaker 1: And So I think there's a specificity around that that, yes,
Speaker 1: hold grace for people and hope that they can evolve
Speaker 1: and change and understand that they got that way for
Speaker 1: a reason. And also it serves no good to them
Speaker 1: or anyone around them who's a potential danger for future
Speaker 1: acts if we don't choose to force them to change
Speaker 1: and help them get the help they need to change.
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, you're describing the situation with Kobe Sarah
Speaker 4: brings us back to kind of the role of the media,
Speaker 4: and after his death, the media was unhinged. It was
Speaker 4: like people weren't allowed to say a bad word about him.
Speaker 4: There was actually a Washington Post porter who just tweeted
Speaker 4: a story about those charges and those allegations and she
Speaker 4: was suspended. And the ability to wrap up all of
Speaker 4: an individual's complexities, especially when they die, you need to
Speaker 4: be able to look.
Speaker 2: At both sides.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really important and really difficult. So I don't
Speaker 1: know if this conversation will help folks try to understand. I,
Speaker 1: back to Amanda's point, feel the same way about so
Speaker 1: many female athletes who idolize Kobe.
Speaker 2: It's really hard for me. It's really hard for me.
Speaker 4: Whenever I look at the WNBACBA, which you know fairly
Speaker 4: often the tribute for the WNBACBA is a tribute to Kobe.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not easy to try to understand all this stuff.
Speaker 1: And for some people it will be maybe a little
Speaker 1: bit easier to just say, well, I just like watching
Speaker 1: basketball and they're good at basketball. But for those of
Speaker 1: you who struggle like we do, we get it. We're
Speaker 1: here to chat about it. We're doing our best to
Speaker 1: work our way through it as well. And yeah, if
Speaker 1: you have other questions or comments, feel free to let
Speaker 1: us know.
Speaker 2: We'd love to hear what you think about this. We
Speaker 2: got to take another break.
Speaker 1: When we come back, a toast to a roast, Welcome back, slices.
Speaker 2: We always love to hear from you.
Speaker 1: So, like I said, hit us up on email, good
Speaker 1: game at Wondermedia neetwork dot com, or leave us a
Speaker 1: voicemail at eight seven two two four fifty seventy. How
Speaker 1: do you handle the human condition specifically to sports? But
Speaker 1: I mean if you have tips in general, we'd love
Speaker 1: to hear them. It's a struggle right now. Also, don't
Speaker 1: forget to subscribe, rate and review. It's easy watch. Dina
Speaker 1: Tarassi given classic DT on the View last week, rating
Speaker 1: ten out of ten for timing and delivery.
Speaker 2: Review.
Speaker 1: Dina Tarassi appeared on the View shortly after announcing her
Speaker 1: retirement for basketball, and apparently six Olympics worth of gold medals,
Speaker 1: twenty years of pro dominance, and four years of college
Speaker 1: excellent didn't provide enough opportunities for Whoopy Goldberg to learn
Speaker 1: her damn name. Take a listen on the Phoenix Mercury
Speaker 1: Diana Tarisi. Yikes, but DT handled it like a pro,
Speaker 1: a pro who will be forever remembered for throwing shade.
Speaker 2: Good to see you, Whippy, I mean whoopye. That's the same.
Speaker 1: Perfect execution, Deanna, I mean Diana. Now it's your turn. Slices,
Speaker 1: rate and review. Thanks for listening, See you tomorrow. Good game,
Speaker 1: Matti Segrest, Good game, Juju Watkins. You talk about launching
Speaker 1: new women's sports network when you don't know how to
Speaker 1: say Diana Tarassi's name, And no, we still don't know
Speaker 1: anything about that new network.
Speaker 2: And also we're playing whoope, but for real, you gotta
Speaker 2: know that name.
Speaker 5: Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports
Speaker 5: production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You
Speaker 5: can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
Speaker 5: wherever you.
Speaker 2: Get your podcasts.
Speaker 5: Production by Wonder Media Network, our producers are Alex Azzie
Speaker 5: and Misha Jones. Our executive produce ucers are Christina Everett,
Speaker 5: Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rutterer. Our editors are
Speaker 5: Emily Rutterer, Britney Martinez and Grace Lynch. Our associate producer
Speaker 5: is Lucy Jones, and I'm your host Sarah Spain.