1 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. 3 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,040 Speaker 2: And I am Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. Time to 4 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 2: go into the vault for an older episode of the show. 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 2: This one originally published on December twenty seventh, twenty twenty two. 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 2: And Robert, is an interview you did with Ian Livingstone. 7 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 2: Livingstone Livingstone Livingstone. 8 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, this was a fun one that I did 9 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: last year. I think they're in like the holiday seasons 10 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: when you know, some folks were out and trying to 11 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: line up some chats and yeah, this is one of 12 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: the creators of Games Workshop, and he has his hands 13 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: and his mind and so many other games and just 14 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: like game systems in general. So this was a really 15 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: fun chat and I'm excited to share it with everyone again. 16 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 3: Let's jump right in. 17 00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 4: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 18 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 19 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb, and today I'd like to present an 20 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: interview I recorded earlier this month with Sir Ian Livingstone, 21 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 1: co founder of Games Workshop and co author of the 22 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: Fighting Fantasy game book series. Now, the creations to come 23 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: out of Games Workshop, especially have meant so much to 24 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: me over the years, and it was a real honor 25 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: to chat with him about the early days of Games Workshop, 26 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 1: about old school gaming in general, the meaning of games, 27 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: and of course his new book, Dice Men, The Origin 28 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: Story of Games Workshop, which he wrote with Steve Jackson. 29 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: The book is out now digitally in the physical version 30 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: is either out or available for pre order, depending on 31 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: what region you're in. Either way you get it, pick 32 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: it up. It's a great read. It has so many 33 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,279 Speaker 1: wonderful images in it. It will really transport you back in time. 34 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: It tells a great tale. So, without further ado, let's 35 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: jump right into the interview. Hi, Ian, thanks for joining us. 36 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 3: It's great to speak to you today. 37 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: So the book is Dice Mean The Origin Story of 38 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: Games Workshop, written with Steve Jackson, and I think at 39 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 1: this point a great number of our listeners out there 40 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: are certainly well acquainted with the name Games Workshop. Even 41 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: if you didn't grow up with the games and the 42 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: miniatures like I did, and like many many others did, 43 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 1: you're still going to probably be aware of all the novels, 44 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: the video games, the animated series and so much more. 45 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 1: It's big business. But I thought you might take us 46 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: back and just in brief remind us what Games Workshop 47 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: was back in the day when you and Steve Jackson 48 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 1: co founded it. 49 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 5: Well, Steve and I were old school friends and we 50 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 5: met up in London in the seventies and our passion 51 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 5: was playing board games, mainly those that came from the US, 52 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 5: games like Diplomacy and Avalon Hill Games. And we thought, 53 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 5: wouldn't it be great we could somehow turn our passion 54 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 5: of playing games into some sort of fledgling business. So 55 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 5: we decided to publish a small fan called Out and Weasel, 56 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 5: and we sent one copy to everybody wenew in Games, 57 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 5: and although we hadn't sent it to him directly, one 58 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 5: found its way to the desk of Gary Gygax in 59 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 5: Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, and Gary wrote to us and said, 60 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 5: love your little fanzine. His this game I've just published 61 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 5: and designed. What do you think? And that game was 62 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 5: Dungeons and Dragons, And whilst it didn't look much pretty 63 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 5: playing box with a very ordinary illustration on the cover, 64 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 5: it opened up your imagination like no game had ever 65 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 5: done before, and I don't think any game ever will again, 66 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 5: in that it allowed a new form of interactive entertainment. 67 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 3: Role playing people playing. 68 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 5: As heroes and wizards, exploring the labyrinth designed by games Master, 69 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 5: and through theater on the fly, conversing in craziness. Incredible 70 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 5: narrative story between the players as they forged their way 71 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 5: through the dungeons, killing monsters and finding treasure. So we 72 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 5: ordered six copies of D and D because that's all 73 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 5: the money we actually had in our lives. And on 74 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 5: the back of that order, Gary gave us a three 75 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 5: year exclusive distribution agreement for the whole of Europe, so 76 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 5: we were effectively all playing is role playing people about 77 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 5: a role playing game. It was very amateursh but that's 78 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 5: how things started in the seventies. 79 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was fascinating to read your take on the 80 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: gaming world prior to the creation of games Workshop and 81 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: prior to the introduction and creation of both Dungeons and Dragons, 82 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: just how niche was gaming beyond family staples like Monopoly. 83 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: During the nineteen sixties, for example. 84 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 5: Well, in the UK there was one company Dominator that 85 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 5: was Waddington's and they published Monopoly include which is Clue 86 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 5: in the US, Buccaneer and Formula one. And these games 87 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 5: were enjoyable enough, but they were never satisfied gamers like 88 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 5: Steve and myself. We wanted something more where there's more 89 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 5: strategy than luck, and where you could do a negotiation 90 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 5: and have a kind of a metal level of enjoyment 91 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 5: by all the bargaining and reneging on deals that could happen. Obviously, 92 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 5: Diplomas is perfect for that kind of play where you 93 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 5: can backstand people at will in order to dominate the world. 94 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 3: So those are the games we looked out for. 95 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 5: But D and D really changed our minds of the 96 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 5: type of game we want to play. We suddenly immersed 97 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 5: in this incredible fancy world and a kind of tolkienesque 98 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 5: world of monster magic going on, these fantastic jos of 99 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 5: mind through conversation, and it was that theater of the 100 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 5: Fly that I just mentioned that became a place where 101 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 5: we wanted to visit all the time. 102 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: Are you saying that it also Dungeons and Dragons sort 103 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 1: of opened up the space for fantasy itself to be 104 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 1: part of gaming because you describe a lot of the 105 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 1: gaming prior to that is very like historical military based, right. 106 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. 107 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 5: The miniatures companies in the UK in particular were all 108 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 5: based on napoleonics, ancients and some World War two, but 109 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 5: there was no fancy element as such, even though fancy 110 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 5: was pretty well established in UK mythology from George and 111 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 5: the Dragon or a Thurian Knights, and of course the 112 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 5: books from Tolkien and others. So I guess there was 113 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 5: no surprise that fancy gaming would ultimately come along as 114 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,559 Speaker 5: a viable genre to enjoy play. 115 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, you described that, even Dungeons and Dragons kind of 116 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 1: arises out of Chainmail, this military battle game that Gary 117 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: Gygax said co created. 118 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, but he had this fancy supplement and when 119 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 5: he played Dave Arnison's Blackmore, there was that fusion of 120 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 5: the two coming together to create you know, this this 121 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 5: male stone in gaming history that is Dungeons Dragons. But 122 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 5: it was largely down I think to Gary's making it 123 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:56,679 Speaker 5: happen that it was as successful as it was. Clearly 124 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 5: Dave answered kind of probably the original role playing concept 125 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 5: in a fancy world as a result of its previous 126 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 5: gaming experiences, But it's Gary who made it happen. He 127 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 5: took what was largely in Dave Anson's head and turned 128 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 5: into fifty page rule book and then began the commercialization 129 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 5: of that. So he was the driving force behind it. 130 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: So you mentioned earlier, you know, you had like the 131 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: family games and then you mentioned like the Avalon Hill 132 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: games that were coming down. Now was there was there 133 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: just kind of like a big gap in complexity between say, 134 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: the Avalon Hill games and the family games. Was there 135 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: not much in between? 136 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 3: There wasn't really. 137 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 5: It was kind of full on hobby game as hex 138 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 5: grid long and sometimes difficult to understand rules, which were 139 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 5: the war games and particularly SPI war. 140 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 3: Games and most of the Avalon Hill games. 141 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 5: And then there was kind of on the other side 142 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 5: of the fence that's almost too easy to play. So 143 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 5: we we wanted some more thing in the middle. And 144 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 5: whilst that was something that we sold through playing Dungeon Dragons, 145 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 5: we also as Games Workshops, started publishing our own board 146 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 5: games to fill out what we thought was a viable gap, 147 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 5: what kind of mid mid core gaming experiences, games like Talisman, Judge, Dread, 148 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 5: Battle Cars, Apocalypse and others that we published under Workshops brand, 149 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 5: as well as publishing Dungeon Dragons. 150 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember as a child before I became exposed 151 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: to many of these other games, before being exposed to 152 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons and Games Workshop games, we had family 153 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: games in the household. My father had some of those 154 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: SPI games, and I remember wanting to understand them and 155 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:48,239 Speaker 1: play them, but as a child that was completely overwhelmed 156 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: by everything I found in the box. 157 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 5: Well, not only were the rule books completely lengthy and 158 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 5: that you need to be kind of a Philadelphia lawyer 159 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 5: to understand them, just setting up the counters would take 160 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 5: hours as well, and I left any time for actually playing. 161 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 5: I mean, some games like nineteen fourteen would last for 162 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 5: days if you fee allowed it too, so it was 163 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 5: almost like work rather than play sometimes. 164 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: And now on the subject of miniatures and miniature war games, 165 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: until very recently, I really didn't know how much how 166 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: far back it went. I think I saw in this 167 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: is tremendously ill, but I saw some wonderful footage of 168 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: the late actor Peter Cushing painting miniature soldiers and plotting 169 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:38,199 Speaker 1: out battles with historical bas Napoleonic yeah figures, this is 170 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: pretty much what it consisted of. Prior to your work. 171 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 5: Well over one hundred years ago, there was lead miniatures 172 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 5: put out there, a kind of fifty four millimeter scale 173 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 5: or the twenty five millimeters that we did through typical 174 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 5: wargaming and fantasy gaming miniatures of our time, but there 175 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 5: were many historical figures that people collected and sometimes four battles. 176 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 5: I mean, if you go back to Edwardian times, those 177 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 5: there were many companies actually put producing lead figures which 178 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 5: were painted, and so I think toy soldiers is nothing new. 179 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 5: It's just that toy soldiers that we made at Citadel 180 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 5: Miniatures were fantasy figures rather than historical wargame figures. 181 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: Can you describe a little bit how Citadel Miniatures came 182 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: together as part of or auxiliary to games workshop. 183 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 5: Yes, well, we'd been running workshops since nineteen seventy five. 184 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 5: We decided to up our game in terms of publishing, 185 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 5: so we dropped al and weaseled our little fanzine and 186 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 5: started publishing White Dwarf Magazine, and we started running conventions 187 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 5: Games Day. It's one of those conventions that Brian Ansell, 188 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,199 Speaker 5: who was running a company called as Guard Minutes of 189 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 5: the time, we met him briefly. There also ordering quite 190 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 5: a lot of giant rats and other figures from him 191 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 5: that could be used in d games, and he requested 192 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 5: a meeting with us, and so we met him in 193 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 5: seventy eight and he said that, you know, I can 194 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 5: be the answer to your miniatures problem. Because at that 195 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 5: time we were importing most of our games from the US, 196 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 5: from Ralph Parth in particular and Archive miniatures, and they 197 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 5: were obviously very expensive to import, with not just a 198 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 5: shipping cost but the import duty costs, and then the 199 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 5: delivery times were also sort of the logistics of the 200 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 5: supply chain was a bit challenging. So we agreed that 201 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 5: we set up a company with him, and we call 202 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 5: that company citid Our Miniatures. But it was based where 203 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 5: he lived in the Midlands, around around Nottingham, and that's 204 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 5: how Ciciel came to be and it became just an 205 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 5: amazing additive to the Games Workshop REMIT, which had historically 206 00:11:55,200 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 5: just been publishing board games and opening retail shops. 207 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,559 Speaker 1: And if things keep moving with the miniatures, how does 208 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: it how does it grow in terms of the miniature's 209 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 1: role in the games, Because I mean nowadays with Games Workshop, 210 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: at least for me, like I think about the games 211 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: and the minis and it's like it's very hard to 212 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: differentiate between the two. But it sounds like from what 213 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: are read in the book, like at times that is 214 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: kind of a struggle to decide even in the early 215 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: days of Games Workshop, like what is what is the 216 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: area that should be receiving the most attention, the miniatures 217 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: or the games, Like what is the interaction between these 218 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: two areas well? 219 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 5: Steve and I were running the games division effectively, so 220 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 5: we wanted to put more resource into publishing board games, 221 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 5: publishing more role playing games, opening more shops, publishing more 222 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 5: magazines as well as white dwarf. So it's all around 223 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 5: the kind of print media and retal division. Whereas Brian 224 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 5: Anser was running miniatures, wanted more resources allocated to more miniatures, 225 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 5: and he had a great point because that the gross 226 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 5: margin in miniatures was quite high, and he also argued 227 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 5: that there should be a set of rules that enabled 228 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 5: more minutes to be sold, because if you're making miniatures 229 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 5: for role playing game, you tend to sell them in 230 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:24,719 Speaker 5: single units because you only need one beholder or one skeleton, 231 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 5: or one cleric or one fighter. So really that's how 232 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 5: the Warhammer concept came about, as a way to sell 233 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 5: units of miniatures rather than single figures. At the same 234 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 5: time in ninety at the end of nineteen seventy eight, 235 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 5: and we lost the exclusivity with Dungeon Dragons. Now, Gary 236 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:45,839 Speaker 5: gig As I said earlier, had given us a three 237 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 5: year exclusive distribution agreement which ended the end of seventy 238 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 5: eight in the beginning, then in seventy nine he came 239 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 5: to business and said that he wanted to merge his 240 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 5: company TSR with our company Games Workshop, and we would 241 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 5: be given like kind a third of the by identity. 242 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 5: But Steve and I were kind of independently minded young 243 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 5: Brits at the time and we didn't want to have 244 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 5: a split life between London and Wisconsin, so we said 245 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 5: no to that merger opportunity. So whilst remind the biggest 246 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 5: distributors of Dungeons and Dragons and TSR Hobbies Games, we're 247 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 5: no longer the exclusive distributor, and it was only a 248 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 5: matter of time before they had set up in the 249 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 5: UK and have their own distribution points and we might 250 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 5: obviously be. 251 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 3: That would obviously impact on our celves. 252 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 5: So we know, we knew we needed something that was 253 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 5: going to be our own intellectual property. We determined our 254 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 5: own destiny in our future. But it had to something 255 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 5: that could resonate with a wide audience and be able 256 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 5: to scale. So as we had some considerable success with 257 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 5: some of the board games that we published, another role 258 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 5: playing games that we published on the license, like Traveler 259 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 5: and ruin Quest, and important games like Call of a Cuthulhu. 260 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 5: It wasn't really until Warhammer came about that we were 261 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 5: suddenly in in a much better place in terms of 262 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 5: being able to be independent. And it was an original 263 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 5: idea from Bright Ansel to publish a kind of free 264 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 5: set of rules as a as a giveaway with the 265 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 5: mail orders. But then he brought in Rick Priestley and 266 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 5: Richard Halliwell to kind of beef up the rules, and 267 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 5: when they were played, he decided, well, rather than just 268 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 5: give them away, let's make this into a product itself. 269 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 5: And that's how Warhammer, the original Fancy Battle game came 270 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 5: out in nineteen eighty three, and even though it was 271 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 5: loaded with errors and mistakes and wasn't particularly complete, it 272 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 5: sold out very quickly. Some three thousand copies went pretty 273 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 5: much immediately. So that's how the second edition of Warhammer 274 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 5: came about. And then they realized that, you know what, 275 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 5: if this is our own ip, we should focus more 276 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 5: on it rather than other people's products. And therefore Warhammer 277 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 5: was really was They became front and central focus for 278 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 5: the whole of the company. 279 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 3: So all the rules enabled more minutes to be sold. 280 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 3: White Dwarf then focused. 281 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 5: On on on on Warhammer the retail stores. There something 282 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 5: less of imported products and more of our own products, 283 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 5: and that's that slow move over happened over quite a 284 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 5: few months before it became a totally Warhammer focused company. 285 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: Now in the book, you describe the first space marine 286 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: minis that come about, and there are some lovely photographs 287 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: as well. I have to stress for anyone out there 288 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: who's interested in the book, there are so many wonderful 289 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: photographs and scans as well of some of these uh uh, 290 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: these early magazine publications and you know, early editions of 291 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: White Dwarf. It's it's fact, it's like a scrapbook. 292 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 5: Well, I like to think it as as a personal 293 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 5: memoile where there as much historical, photographic and image reference 294 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 5: as possible. And it's say it's more of a a biography, 295 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 5: personal biography warts and all and full of anecdotes, or 296 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 5: on a business, a book about business. 297 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 3: And that's why there are over four. 298 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,679 Speaker 5: Hundred photographs in the book, some which of which I 299 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,440 Speaker 5: mean a lot of which had never been seen before, you. 300 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 3: Know, rummaging around in the roof. 301 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 5: In the in the left looking for a old thirty 302 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 5: five millimeters transparencies slides that we had to have scan 303 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 5: and getting really excited finding looking at slides you hadn't 304 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 5: seen for some you know, forty five years. It's just 305 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:29,360 Speaker 5: as an amazing experience in itself. And then writing more 306 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 5: and more, and then talking to more colleagues to validate 307 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 5: what we've said, and remembering all this weird stuff that happened, 308 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 5: like having to live in a van for three months 309 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 5: because he couldn't get any bank finance. You're going to 310 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 5: see the bank manager telling about dungeon and dragons. It 311 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 5: looks like you're like, you're mad and nice you to leave. 312 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 5: So we had to finance everything out of out of 313 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 5: cash flow, and it'd only afford her into a very 314 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 5: small office at the back of the state agent, and 315 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 5: had to live in Steve's van throughout three months of 316 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 5: an awful winter. But you know, I think I said 317 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 5: it the books. You could call it living the gym, 318 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 5: but clearly it wasn't. But when you're driven by passion 319 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 5: around your own hobby, it doesn't seem like hardship. 320 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: The van in question, is this is Van Morrison? Correct? 321 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 5: That was the nickname, the one only Van Morrison. Yes, 322 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,199 Speaker 5: a big blue van that was our home for three months. 323 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. The personal stories are so such a wonderful aspect 324 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,360 Speaker 1: of the book. Again, all these photographs of the real 325 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: people involved in these games and in games workshop, but 326 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 1: it really beefs up the personal story. And then you 327 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: have these little so many of these anecdotes and sort 328 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,360 Speaker 1: of little adventures that pop up along the way. 329 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, like going too the States to see let's see 330 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 5: Carrie in nineteen seventy six to in theory a ten 331 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 5: gen Con nine, but taking that two months to get there, 332 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 5: and delivering cars from New York to LA, then another 333 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 5: one from LA to San Francisco and then on from 334 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 5: to Chicago, and all the adventures had along the route. 335 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 5: It was a year of the It was the Olympics 336 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 5: year and McDonald's are running this promotion where if the 337 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 5: US want to a gold medal, you want to I 338 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 5: think it was a big mac and then if they 339 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 5: want to selve medal, you get a large fries and 340 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 5: a bronze you get a coke. 341 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 3: And so we were being kind of pretty. 342 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 5: Chatted by wanting the US to win all these all 343 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 5: these all these medals, because if you had a ticket 344 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 5: that matched the winning winning sport, you'd win one of 345 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 5: the items. 346 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 3: So that kept us alive on the road. 347 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 1: And this is was this off the trip where you 348 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: went through Vegas? 349 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 3: Yes, that's right. 350 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that part was very interesting as well, in 351 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: part because you're describing like taking a jount through the 352 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 1: casinos there and in a way kind of witnessing gaming 353 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: or at its worst, you know, at it's kind of 354 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: like crushing worst whilst you and your cohorts are kind 355 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 1: of on this like mission of and you know, and 356 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 1: you've been describing like just being so inspired by these 357 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,360 Speaker 1: new ideas and then these two game possibilities they're emerging. 358 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was. It was. 359 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 5: I mean, I think that Vegas and if you go 360 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 5: there for a few days, but to see people isn't 361 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 5: their money. One particular gentleman from Japan, it was a 362 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 5: bit sad to see his one hundred dollar bills disappear 363 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 5: so quickly that we didn't dare gamble a penny because 364 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 5: we just couldn't afford it. 365 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 1: So how long did this did this process of going 366 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 1: back and sort of piecing together the story of the 367 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: early games workshops days, you know, trying to find these 368 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:40,679 Speaker 1: various photographs, Like how long did it take to put 369 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: all this together? 370 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 3: Well? 371 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 5: I thought it was going to take about six months, 372 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 5: and I think it took nearly four years. Because it 373 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,679 Speaker 5: wasn't just the process of doing it I was. 374 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 3: It was also. 375 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 5: It was doing it in times when I was free, 376 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 5: because even though I'm nearly seventy three years old, I'm 377 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 5: still very much looking full time on various projects, still 378 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 5: writing firey fantasy game books and game books in which 379 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 5: you are the hero of the branching narrative with the 380 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 5: game system attached. 381 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 3: It's the fortieth. 382 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 5: Anniversary of this year and I wrote a new book 383 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 5: to celebrate that, Shadows of the Giants, which was great 384 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 5: to go back to my roots in that respect. And 385 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 5: I'm also I also have my own school in Bournemouth 386 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 5: which is all around digital creativity and good arts education 387 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 5: using game based learning and very much influenced by Dungeon 388 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 5: Dragons the power of players it were. And as I mentioned, 389 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 5: I'm also a general partner Hero Capital, which is a 390 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 5: venture capital fund investing in video games, studios and technologies. 391 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 3: So it's a question of finding the time. 392 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 5: And then the more I spent researching and writing, the 393 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 5: more I wanted it to be as good it could 394 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 5: possibly be, And so I went the extra mile, so 395 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 5: to speak to to try and tell the full story 396 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 5: and make sure what I said was validated by cross 397 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 5: referencing in magazines and talking to the people were who 398 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 5: were around at the time. Sadly some of those people 399 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 5: have since passed away, but nevertheless, I think it's a 400 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 5: it's a pretty accurate account of those origin years of 401 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 5: origin story years of seventy five to eighty five. 402 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I have to stress to everyone out there, 403 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 1: you don't have to be like a game designer or 404 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: just to be like a really hardcore gaming fan to 405 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 1: find the story engaging. You know, it's it's ultimately the 406 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: story of people and their passions. 407 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 5: Yes, I says, I'd like to see almost like a 408 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,719 Speaker 5: coffee table book where you can just casually look at 409 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 5: the images of the time, the fashions and the things 410 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 5: we did in the seventies and early eighties, but also, 411 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 5: if you're curious, you know, read some of the story 412 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 5: behind what became an incredible company. Now were some three 413 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 5: billion dollars on the London Stock Exchange and also perhaps 414 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 5: be amused by some of the anecdotes told in the story. 415 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: Now, you mentioned the Fighting Fantasy game books series, and 416 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: I definitely wanted to ask you about about that. I 417 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,199 Speaker 1: actually I picked up I picked up The Warlock of 418 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: Firetop Mountain prior to this interview, and I was playing 419 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: through it with my son a bit and tremendous fun, 420 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: encountering all you know, encounting crocodiles and buranas and goblins 421 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: and so forth, and very very captivating for both of us, 422 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: and I think he was getting he was almost getting 423 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 1: a little too into it, concerned about the danger we 424 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: were encountering. 425 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 3: He's ten. 426 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: But this this idea of the game book, Like how 427 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 1: does it? 428 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 3: Like? 429 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 1: What is that? What is the world of game books? 430 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: Prior to your work with game books? And then like, 431 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: how like what is the process like of laying these 432 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 1: out and and and creating one that works? Because I 433 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: definitely remember as a younger person picking up a game 434 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 1: book by someone else. It was another company, a competitor 435 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,159 Speaker 1: I met, and it was heartbreaking when it broke, like 436 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: it reached a point where I could not go any 437 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: further because there was some sort of number error in 438 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: the publication right well. 439 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 5: I believe Fighting Fancy was the very first game book 440 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 5: series which had a branch and narrative and the game 441 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 5: system attached to it around about the same time, although 442 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 5: we hadn't seen them. 443 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:22,360 Speaker 3: On this side of the Atlantic. 444 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 5: The Chooser and Adventure books were out, but they were 445 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 5: more choose your own paragraph. There was no game element 446 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 5: to making. So what we tried to do with Fighting 447 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 5: Fancy was distill a role playing experience into a single 448 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 5: player solo adventure whereby the book replace the games master 449 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 5: and you, the reader, moved from a passive reading experience 450 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 5: into an interactive experience by baking choices. So it's that 451 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 5: empowerment because you are the hero at the end. There 452 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 5: were four hundred paragraph At the end of each one, 453 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 5: you have to make a choice. Simplistically, you turn left 454 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 5: or right, and then there are puzzles to solve. There 455 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 5: are monsters to fight. That's when you use the dice. 456 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 5: There are three basic characteristics skipdamina, and luck, which are 457 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 5: modified through your progress through the adventure. Your skill might 458 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 5: go up if you find a magic potion, or your 459 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 5: stamina might go down if you lose a fight in 460 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 5: combat with a monster and then you test your luck 461 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 5: to escape or try and get extra extra benefits by 462 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 5: rolling dice against your luck roll. So we wanted to 463 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 5: have a very thrilling experience with people that given the 464 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 5: agency through choices empowering and they were hugely successful. They 465 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 5: went on to sell over twenty million copies globally and 466 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 5: they got a whole generation of children reading in the 467 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 5: eighties because of the agency. That empowerment was very compelling. 468 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 5: And this read by word of mouth. Clearly there was 469 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 5: no Internet at the time, but it was the word 470 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 5: of mouth, which is the best kind of variety you 471 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 5: could possibly hope for in the playgrounds of the schools, 472 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 5: initially in the UK and then it spread into Europe 473 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 5: and ultimately globally, and so Walkfi Top Mountain as you 474 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 5: read was the first one. And we wanted to use 475 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 5: our own artists that we'd use at Games Workshop because 476 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 5: we found those really stimulated children's imagination because they were 477 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 5: realistically detailed where it's puffing. Were a bit nervous about 478 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 5: it that the imprint because as they were children's books, 479 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 5: they wanted to write nice safe covers with a little toadstool, 480 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 5: little gnomes sitting on the toe, all of them, butterflies 481 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 5: in the air whilse. We really wanted the kids to 482 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 5: be kind of go, oh, my goodness, what is that 483 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 5: horrendous creature coming at me. 484 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 3: It's going to buy my head off. So we wanted that. 485 00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 5: Kind of thrill of excitement and then the joy of them, 486 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 5: you know, succeeding by getting. 487 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 3: Through the through the through the books. 488 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:07,959 Speaker 5: So finally a key in one room allow used to 489 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 5: open a chest or door further on in the adventure, 490 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 5: but right to them, as you say, was an absolute nightmare. 491 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 5: It was like writing multiple storylines at once and having 492 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 5: to bring the readers back to certain common points, no 493 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 5: points where they had to have essential information to allow 494 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 5: them to progress. You had to balance the economy so 495 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 5: there wasn't too much gold or too little gold. You 496 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 5: had to make sure it wasn't too difficult or too easy, 497 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 5: so it was a fun experience but with enough enough 498 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 5: of challenge but not impossible. Make sure there were no 499 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 5: culder sacks and all the choice you make. So he 500 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 5: designed them on a flow chart really is like a 501 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 5: computer computer flow chart, making sure every every split in 502 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 5: the in the in the adventure was notated and what 503 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 5: could be found or not found at each decision point. 504 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 5: But the important thing is that every decision had to 505 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,199 Speaker 5: have a consequence, otherwise why have bit branching anyway, So 506 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 5: it was really good fun, and of course my joy 507 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 5: was to lure people to their doom, promise them wealth 508 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 5: and glory with nice rose petals along the pathway, only 509 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 5: for them to fall on poison spikes down a pit, 510 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 5: which was always good fun for me, but of course 511 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 5: most people cheated. It had their multiple pages in the 512 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 5: in the book, and you could see them on public 513 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 5: transport on buses and trains where their fingers about five 514 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 5: places in the books. It always used to make me 515 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 5: laugh when I see that. I used to see that 516 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 5: in those days. 517 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 1: I love the innovation of it. You mentioned the dice 518 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: that are used a couple of d six, but I 519 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: love the innovation of the dice at various dice combinations 520 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: at the bottom of each page that you can flip through. 521 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: You don't have physical dice and do a dice roll. 522 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 5: That was a more recent adaptation innovation in the original books, 523 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 5: which were a much more highly detailed in their illustrations 524 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 5: and perhaps more threatening, it didn't have the distroll. 525 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 3: So yeah, I guess that's. 526 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: It would have made it easier for playing it on 527 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: the train. I guess now you mentioned computer games. The 528 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 1: games like The Warlock of Firetop Mountain and these other 529 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: game books you worked on, these have eventually find their 530 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: way into the world of computer gaming, right they did. 531 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 5: I mean, Iceman doesn't really cover too much about video 532 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 5: games except for what we did at the time in 533 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 5: the early eighties selling Activision games and very early PCs 534 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 5: and console gaming, just when there was an early crash 535 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 5: in the early eighties which had quite a negative impact 536 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 5: on Games Workshop for the amount of stock we had 537 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 5: a retail. But more recently the five Defense of Game 538 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 5: books have been available digitally from from from tim Man 539 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 5: Games in Australia designed them as apps and Nomad Games 540 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 5: have created on games on Switch and also on PC. 541 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 3: It's more of a top down. 542 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 5: Kind of not a collectible car game, but being rewarded 543 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 5: with cards when you progress through the adventure and ultimately 544 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 5: get through so depth. Chup Dungeon, City of Thieves, the 545 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 5: Forest of Doing of all be important to digital formats, 546 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 5: so there's something for everyone these days. 547 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 3: Books or video games. 548 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: One thing I was wondering about as well is that. 549 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: You know, obviously we have this, you know, the rich 550 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: world of miniature based games and dungeons and ng dragons, 551 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: various role playing games, and these these game books as well, 552 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: and in the background or in the forefront, depinding you 553 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: look at it, I guess we have the emergence of 554 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: of even more video game opportunities. And today we have 555 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: some pretty amazing video games out there. The graphics are 556 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: better than ever before, the game systems involved are so complicated. 557 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: But we as gamers, gamers of all ages, we keep 558 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: coming back to to that, like we're coming back to 559 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: these game books. We're coming back to physical tabletop games 560 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: and to games that take place predominant in our imagination. 561 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: What does that mean you think? 562 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 5: I think one is at the expense of the other. 563 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 5: I think it's nice to have. Do you know I 564 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 5: play both board games. I'm sitting in a room here 565 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 5: you might see with over fifteen hundred board games in 566 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 5: the room, but I also have, you know, hundreds of 567 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 5: video games. I think it's it depends how you feel 568 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 5: on the day. And you can also see that it's that, 569 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 5: you know, Vinyl's made a revival as people don't just 570 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 5: want to stream music to whatever digital advice they have, 571 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 5: they like to have the physicality. Physical books have made 572 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 5: a revival because people like to surround themselves with things 573 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 5: that give them pleasure. The physical as well as the digital. 574 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 5: I think helps satisfy all parts of the human mind, 575 00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 5: rather than one at the expense of the other. House 576 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 5: so I enjoy both. It depends on who I'm going 577 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 5: to play with or what I'm going to read, and 578 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 5: in what form I happened to be using at the time. 579 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 5: If I'm traveling, obviously it's going to be digital. If 580 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 5: I'm at home, probably physical. 581 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: Now I'm going to Coneck to something I was going 582 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: to ask earlier and we end up going in a 583 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: different direction. But you describe the first space Marine minis 584 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: in the book, and there's some lovely photographs of the 585 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: little minis as well. The space Marines of warm Er 586 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: forty thousand have certainly become very iconic. They're very recognizable, 587 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: part of the of the of the brand in clearly 588 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: big business as well. How did this concept originally come together? 589 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 5: Well, they've changed an awful lot of time, the Space 590 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 5: Marines of the eighties to the Space Marines of today. 591 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 3: They've just got bigger. 592 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 5: Bolder and stronger and have got an incredible esthetic around 593 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 5: them now of course, and everyone everyone loves them. 594 00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 3: They came from very hubble beginnings. 595 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 5: I think Bob Nasmith came up with the original space 596 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 5: bringing look and feel in his iconic first miniature. So 597 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 5: I call things small like acorns. They become oaks over time, 598 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 5: have given the rights environment for growth through their popularity. 599 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 5: So it's great to see them so amazing successful today. 600 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 5: And there's the power of Warhammer Porty k is extraordinary. 601 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 5: I think there's some talking to about video games. I 602 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 5: think there's some fifty licenses now and some extraordinary games 603 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 5: being put out there. So the world of Warhammer is 604 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 5: rich and famous and widespread now. 605 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: Obviously there's a there's a lot to say about about 606 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: game design and approaches to game design and in the 607 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: business of game design and the business of gaming. Do 608 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: you have any quick advice to throw out there to 609 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: anyone who is a budding game designer or thinks they 610 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 1: want to get into the industry of game design. 611 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 5: Well, I guess it depends on what part of the 612 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 5: industry you want to get into. Is it tabletop war gaming, 613 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 5: is it board games, is it video games? 614 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 3: The thing that unites them more. 615 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 5: When people ask me what's the most the three most 616 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 5: important things about a game, I will say gameplay, gameplay, gameplay. 617 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,839 Speaker 5: In video games, whilst technology and graphics are essential, they 618 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 5: play a supporting role. It always comes down to how 619 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:26,240 Speaker 5: you're enjoying the game to play, rather than what things 620 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 5: look like. But in a board game, of course, great 621 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 5: production values has really enhanced that experience now with all 622 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 5: the bits, and the graphics are amazing now, but the 623 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 5: gameplay is what makes us want to start playing in 624 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:42,319 Speaker 5: the first place. So games should be quick to learn 625 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 5: but difficult to master, so you can get various degrees 626 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 5: of expert abilities in these games. The better play you are, 627 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 5: you should be more successful in winning. And of course 628 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 5: you need an exciting theme that resonates with everybody. I mean, 629 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 5: in board games, it's no surprise that Ticket to Ride 630 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 5: has been successful. You could learn it very quickly, but 631 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,800 Speaker 5: it takes a long time to become a master of it. Really, 632 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 5: all the strategies, it looks great, The trains resonate with everybody. 633 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,799 Speaker 5: The pieces are lovely because you pick up these little 634 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 5: train carriers and plot them around the board. So it's 635 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 5: kind of got all the component parts of a classically 636 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 5: successful game, and similarly with video games, there the appeal 637 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 5: has to be in the gameplay and then the meta 638 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,759 Speaker 5: level of course that's common denominate about all these is 639 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 5: the enjoyment caused by people playing together. So it's that 640 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 5: joy by anything that is a shared experience is always enhanced, 641 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 5: and there's always an enhanced experience, whether it's looking at 642 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 5: a sunset or having dinner or going to the cinema 643 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 5: with somebody, and obviously with games, you're playing. 644 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 3: With somebody that that's that's. 645 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,800 Speaker 5: That's that fun that's created by just the conversation, whether 646 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 5: it's the shared experience of enjoyment or doing a deal 647 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:13,240 Speaker 5: and renegey on it. That's as that extra level of enjoyment. 648 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 5: So there's a there are many things to consider when 649 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 5: designing a game, but there's kind of there's there's four 650 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:20,320 Speaker 5: basic principles. 651 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 3: I think he's absolutely vital to include. 652 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: Now you mentioned earlier all the all the activities that 653 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: you're involved in. You and of course you're a legend 654 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: in the game design industry. Do you do you still 655 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: gather with friends and just play games purely recreationally. 656 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 5: We play once a week with the same group of 657 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 5: people since the eighties, so still Steve Jackson plus Peter 658 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,080 Speaker 5: Molnu from the video games industry, one of the UK's 659 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 5: premiere designers. I mean he created Populos originally, and Fable 660 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 5: and Black and White and other amazing video games titles. 661 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,320 Speaker 5: And it's kind of a tongue in cheek Gentleman's club 662 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 5: in that we play games and keep a record all 663 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,839 Speaker 5: the games played every every week and score points, and 664 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 5: I send out a newsletter the games. That newsletter largely 665 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 5: just to criticize the other people playing. It allows me 666 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,839 Speaker 5: as secretary to treat it as my own kind of 667 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,799 Speaker 5: give them verbal abuse the whole time. At the end 668 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 5: of the year, we have a cup, the cup that's 669 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 5: presented to the champion. So we don't take ourselves seriously 670 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 5: about doing it, but it adds another dimension to play 671 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 5: in the games that we do. So you've been doing 672 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,720 Speaker 5: it for say, since the eighties. I've published six hundred 673 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 5: and twenty seven issues of the Game that Newsletter to 674 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 5: a circulation to six people. 675 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 1: So coming back to the book for a second again. 676 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 1: The book is Dice Men, The Origin Story of Games Workshop. 677 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 1: We talked a little bit about how it came together. 678 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 1: But why did it come together? Why now? 679 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 3: Two? 680 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 5: Well, I started writing it about four years ago, largely 681 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,320 Speaker 5: because Games Workshop was doing so well as a company. 682 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 5: Everyone was saying, what is this games company on the 683 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 5: London Stock Exchange that's now worth three or four billion dollars? 684 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 3: That's ridiculous. 685 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,879 Speaker 5: How can it be worth more than some of the 686 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,359 Speaker 5: major corporations I've known all my life? Where did it 687 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,359 Speaker 5: come from? And when I meet people, I said, you know, 688 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 5: what was your first how do you get into into games? 689 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 5: And so I started coming calls Games Workshop and they said, 690 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 5: well how did that come about? So I thought, you 691 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:34,799 Speaker 5: know what it really is about time this was put 692 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,320 Speaker 5: down in writing as a kind of a personal memoir 693 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,840 Speaker 5: and something that could be there for posterity long after 694 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,240 Speaker 5: I've gone and Steve's gone. It would be there for 695 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,239 Speaker 5: people who might be remotely interested in what has been 696 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 5: an incredible journey, the kind of birth of the game 697 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 5: industry in the UK and globally. Really it was such 698 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 5: an amateur thing in the in the in the seventies. 699 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 5: But to see that down on paper and won't be 700 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 5: lost forever, I thought it was important thing to do. 701 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,800 Speaker 5: So here we are life is a game for us. 702 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 1: Well, it's a it's a it's a great read. I 703 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: highly recommend it to our listeners. And I want to 704 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:14,359 Speaker 1: thank you for coming on the show. And I also 705 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 1: want to just thank you for you know, helping to 706 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,960 Speaker 1: bring about all these great creations that mean so much 707 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 1: to us. I mean the Warhammer, Warhammer forty thousand, uh like, 708 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 1: these are these are things that still bring me a 709 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: lot of joy today as an adult, and certainly gave 710 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:32,759 Speaker 1: me a lot of joy when I first discovered them 711 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 1: as a kid. 712 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 3: Thank you. That's very kind of you said that. 713 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 5: I mean, for me as a games player, to being 714 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,600 Speaker 5: able to working games for forty seven years being absolute 715 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 5: privilege and a joy. 716 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 3: So thank you, Thank you. 717 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 1: Thanks once more to sir Ian for taking time out 718 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 1: of his day to chat with me here. It was 719 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:52,720 Speaker 1: a real pleasure. 720 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:53,800 Speaker 3: Again. 721 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:58,239 Speaker 1: The book is Dice Men, the Origin Story of Games Workshop, 722 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:00,799 Speaker 1: written with Steve Jackson. You can find that wherever you 723 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: get your books. I highly recommend checking it out and 724 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: picking it up. Just a reminder that core episodes of 725 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind published on Tuesdays and Thursdays, 726 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,359 Speaker 1: with a listener mail episode on Mondays. A short form 727 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,319 Speaker 1: Monster Factor Artifact episode on Wednesdays and on Fridays, we 728 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 1: set aside most serious concerns and just talk about a 729 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,919 Speaker 1: weird film on Weird House Cinema. If you have any 730 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 1: questions that you would like to ask, any information you'd 731 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: like to share. Do you have particular memories of any 732 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: of these games workshop creations that you would like to 733 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,320 Speaker 1: bring up, or if you have experience with the Fighting 734 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,360 Speaker 1: Fantasy game books series. I know these were near and 735 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 1: dear to a lot of folks growing up, write in. 736 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: We would love to hear from you and potentially read 737 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 1: those messages on a future episode of Listener Mail. Thanks 738 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 1: as always to Max and JJ for producing, editing, and 739 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,759 Speaker 1: splicing everything together here on Stuff to Blow Your Mind 740 00:40:57,920 --> 00:40:59,359 Speaker 1: and Yeah, if you want to reach out to us, 741 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,839 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact and Stuff to Blow 742 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:12,360 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. 743 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,360 Speaker 4: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 744 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,239 Speaker 4: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 745 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:35,360 Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.