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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. It's Sunday, September twenty eighth, and

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Speaker 2: we hope you had a fabulous weekend. First and foremost,

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Speaker 2: we should acknowledge that Courtney Armstrong is not with us tonight.

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Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with Body Move In. And because

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Speaker 2: it is scientific Sunday, we have our beloved Joseph Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 2: the host of the Body Bags podcast.

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Speaker 3: Three times a week.

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Speaker 2: I might add Body Bags if you haven't listened, so

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Speaker 2: please check it out on the iHeartRadio app. We are

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Speaker 2: breaking all kinds of forensics down this evening and we've

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Speaker 2: been getting a lot of your talkback, so keep them

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Speaker 2: coming one eight eight eight three one crime or hit

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Speaker 2: us up at our socials, or you can continue to

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Speaker 2: leave us a talk back throughout the night to talk

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Speaker 2: to Joseph directly real time. So before we go any further, listen,

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Speaker 2: it's been a hard weekend and we want to acknowledge

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Speaker 2: that everyone is thinking about Michigan and North Carolina right now,

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Speaker 2: unspeakable loss.

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Speaker 4: You know, we don't even know.

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Speaker 2: Where to start with it. These are stories that are

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Speaker 2: evolving real time. Of course, in Michigan, four lives have

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Speaker 2: been lost, and in North Carolina three lives lost, and

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Speaker 2: it continues to be just an ongoing thing. In another

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Speaker 2: stacked night of headlines, We're going to focus mostly on

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Speaker 2: the forensics tonight, So unless you want to join the

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Speaker 2: conversation and say otherwise, we're really going to focus on

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Speaker 2: the science and the spirit of keeping that comforting because

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Speaker 2: there's a lot to unpack that we have been talking

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Speaker 2: about all week in cases that we haven't been able

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Speaker 2: to do a real big deep dive into, specifically the forensics. David,

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Speaker 2: the pop Stars still been no arrests. Frankly, not even

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Speaker 2: a suspect has been named. Boddy, you have some really

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Speaker 2: very up to date information that will unpack with Joseph.

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Speaker 2: And then also of course this Travis Decker case, you

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Speaker 2: know Dad's remains, he was you know, in custody, he

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Speaker 2: had his three daughters in his custody and their lives

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Speaker 2: were tragically lost. And now we're going to unpack the

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Speaker 2: forensics to that as well. And there's also been this

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Speaker 2: really big break in the yogurt shop murders.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if you guys have been following that.

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Speaker 2: It is unbelievable, is right? This goes back thirty four years.

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Speaker 2: There was a documentary about it on HBO, very very

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Speaker 2: good worth watching, please do for three lovely four lovely

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Speaker 2: young children teens at the time. Yeah, they lost their

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Speaker 2: lives in this yogurt shop and it's been unsolved, and

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Speaker 2: there seems to be this huge development that really will

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Speaker 2: put a real end to this story. And it's a

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Speaker 2: complicated one, so we'll unpack that as well.

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Speaker 4: And then we're going to do a crime.

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Speaker 2: Lab little session with Joseph Scott Morgan. That's our new

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Speaker 2: working title, Crime Lab with Joseph Scott Morgan for the evening,

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Speaker 2: where we're just going to really look into all things science, forensics,

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Speaker 2: things that maybe we see or talk about or think

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Speaker 2: about in various cases, but we might not know totally

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Speaker 2: what it means.

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Speaker 3: So we're going to do a little unpack of that

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 2: So if you have any like just general forensics questions,

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Speaker 2: we have the guy here to answer them, so please

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Speaker 2: jump in and join the conversation.

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Speaker 3: Courtney's at her high school reunion.

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Speaker 4: Fun. Oh no, how fun, nothing but trouble.

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Speaker 2: So I'm sure she's been whooping it up and love

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Speaker 2: and life and we'll have tales to tell when she

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Speaker 2: is back tomorrow. But in the meantime, it's just us chickens, right,

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Speaker 2: So welcome and let's get to it.

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Speaker 4: Buddy, Where would you like to begin. I'm gonna start

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Speaker 4: with David. I mean I have to. It's been on

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Speaker 4: top of my mind all weekend and I've been following

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Speaker 4: it all weekend, and you know, this is a case.

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Speaker 4: It's making national headlines. It's the tragic death, and you

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Speaker 4: know it's being reported of a fifteen year old. Let's

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Speaker 4: face it. So Leus was fourteen, okayr Plus was fourteen.

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Speaker 4: She was discovered on December eighth, I'm sorry, September eighth,

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Speaker 4: twenty days ago, and her birthday is September seventh, so

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Speaker 4: she was fourteen when she died. Okay, So I'm going

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Speaker 4: to moving forward. I'm going to refer to her as

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Speaker 4: a fourteen year old. Her body was discovered in a

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Speaker 4: decaying state, you know, the fronk of David's Tesla. Authority

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Speaker 4: stress he has not been named a suspect, but the

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Speaker 4: mystery of how you know she ended up in this

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Speaker 4: car has left you know, the public demanding answers, including yeah, right,

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Speaker 4: like we want to know it's opened to this little girl. Tonight,

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Speaker 4: we're going to dig a little bit deeper and go

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Speaker 4: into some of the forensics, maybe not necessarily body forensics,

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Speaker 4: but the things that we know about this tesla and

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Speaker 4: the things that we do know about the state of

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Speaker 4: poor Celust. Right. So, I have an associate. His name

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Speaker 4: is Stephen Fisher, and I asked him if I could

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Speaker 4: you know, use this information, and he said, no problem,

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Speaker 4: of course. And he's a private investigator, and he got

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Speaker 4: a hold of His name is Stephen Fisher on Twitter,

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Speaker 4: it's s f Underscore Investigates. You can find him on

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Speaker 4: Twitter x whatever you want to call it. So he

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Speaker 4: got a hold of the pictures that the LAPD left

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Speaker 4: when they were ticketing the car, and he also got

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Speaker 4: a hold of the vehicle report and the state of

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Speaker 4: the car that it was in, you know, when this

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Speaker 4: was all discovered, and I've got it all and so

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Speaker 4: I kind of wanted to go into this a little bit.

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Speaker 4: So the quick timeline of this car is that the

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Speaker 4: initial call came in and on the September third, somebody

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Speaker 4: goes out to the car, okay, and investigates it, and

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Speaker 4: they take photos of this car and I have them,

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Speaker 4: and the car is very dusty, you guys, Like it

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Speaker 4: is so dusty it looks like it's been sitting there

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Speaker 4: for quite some time. Okay. Then two days later they

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Speaker 4: come back because the ticket, you know, is basically moved

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Speaker 4: the car and it hadn't been moved. So on the

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Speaker 4: fifth is when they took the car and we really

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Speaker 4: see the detail of this car. The back of it

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Speaker 4: has a dent in it like it's been rear ended.

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Speaker 4: And then the left or the driver's side back tire

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Speaker 4: has damage on the rim. It's almost like this car

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Speaker 4: was in some kind of accident. And I don't know

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Speaker 4: if it has anything to do with Celeste, you know,

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Speaker 4: untimely passing. But it is interesting that the car also

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Speaker 4: has like tape on the spoiler, like duct tape. Different

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Speaker 4: colors too, like blue and silver duct tape. I don't

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Speaker 4: does that mean something? I don't know, but it seems

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Speaker 4: it seems it's intentional, right, It does seem intentional. It's

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Speaker 4: very weird. And then when you look in detail of

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Speaker 4: this car, you know how when your car sits for

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Speaker 4: a minute, like and you're parked under a tree and

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Speaker 4: the area where your wind ChIL wipers are, there's like

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Speaker 4: debris in there from the tree. It looks like that

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Speaker 4: has to have been sitting there for quite some time, right, Like,

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Speaker 4: it looks like it's been sitting there for quite some

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Speaker 4: time to me, I would say three weeks to a

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Speaker 4: month maybe even from the dirt on this car. And

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Speaker 4: this is in southern California. Obviously it's not raining a lot. Right.

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Speaker 4: If this had happened, say in Ohio, I think that

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Speaker 4: it might have rained and left these spots. But this

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Speaker 4: is southern California. It's not raining. That is true.

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Speaker 2: And just to add to that, what you're implying or

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Speaker 2: what that would suggest, is that even though David this

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Speaker 2: pop star who is a star, this is his big moment, right,

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Speaker 2: he's on tour, he's touring for the very first time.

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Speaker 2: And while on tour, the car that was registered to him,

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Speaker 2: his Tesla, had a decomposing body in the trunk, which

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Speaker 2: is really in the front in the tesla so it's

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Speaker 2: called a front and that car in the Hollywood Hills,

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Speaker 2: I know.

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Speaker 3: This street actually very well affluent area.

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Speaker 2: By the way, that car was impounded, and in while impounded,

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Speaker 2: body is discovered because of the decomposing smell.

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Speaker 3: Two sides of this. Either, does that.

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Speaker 2: Mean that David had an alibi when the body was

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Speaker 2: discovered he was obviously on tour. If your timeline is

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Speaker 2: accurate and that car had been there for a long time,

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Speaker 2: that changes the timeline, right, that would mean he maybe

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Speaker 2: was not on tour yet.

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Speaker 4: And that's, you know, harrowing.

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Speaker 2: I find it really interesting that we just have not

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Speaker 2: seen anything about this. Why has there been no arrest

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Speaker 2: or no person of interest or any chatter about an

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Speaker 2: arrest to come. This young girl was she's a baby, right,

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Speaker 2: she was like left for dead. She did not put

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Speaker 2: herself there. There's also one little backstory of mom. She

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Speaker 2: was missing since she was.

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Speaker 4: Reported missing in April of twenty twenty four, right, so

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Speaker 4: a year and a half ago. Let's say maybe a

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Speaker 4: year and four months ago. And again, I want to

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Speaker 4: go over this timeline very quickly. The original complaint of

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Speaker 4: the car being abandoned came in on August twenty sixth. Okay,

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Speaker 4: so that's the first date somebody called and said, hey,

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Speaker 4: there's this car that's been sitting out in front of

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Speaker 4: my house for you know, a month or whatever. They said,

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Speaker 4: I do believe SF investigates. Again, the private investigator that

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Speaker 4: got this scoop said that the neighbor said it had

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Speaker 4: been sitting there around a month. Okay, So August twenty sixth,

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Speaker 4: and the cops came in sighted the car on August

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Speaker 4: twenty seventh. They came back on September third, and then

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Speaker 4: they came back again on September fifth and told the car.

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Speaker 4: And then of course we know Celeste was discovered in

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Speaker 4: the front of that car on the eighth. So that's

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Speaker 4: the timeline.

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Speaker 5: Ask a quick question for it's actually for Joseph that

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Speaker 5: ties in with a lot of bodies talking about I

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Speaker 5: know that they said they didn't I guess, smell the

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Speaker 5: body until it went to the pound or the impound

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Speaker 5: place that the car was at. Wouldn't they I don't

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Speaker 5: know how strong an odor is. Wouldn't they have smelled

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Speaker 5: it if it was on the street. I see how

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Speaker 5: the cars park near it, Like how strong of an

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Speaker 5: odor is a decomposing body and strong.

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Speaker 6: And particularly given us the southern California heat, you have

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Speaker 6: to remember at friends, as all of you, as all

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Speaker 6: of you guys do, this was a critical time back

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Speaker 6: in August because our friends in LA were going through

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Speaker 6: the heat, stifling heat, and we at that particular time

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Speaker 6: and so as we know, heat speeds things up. Here's

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Speaker 6: the one thing that I'm kind of curious about.

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Speaker 5: I got.

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Speaker 6: I got two thoughts on this. First off, vehicles in

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Speaker 6: the road. It's not just people that towed it. I'm

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Speaker 6: familiar with this area as well, a friend that used

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Speaker 6: to live by Chateau my mom, which is right right

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Speaker 6: in that area. And I know that I've seen people

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Speaker 6: walking dogs. People love dogs in the right and I'm thinking, okay,

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Speaker 6: you're walking down the street with your dog. Walking the

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Speaker 6: dog actually would work on something like this. And I

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Speaker 6: can't imagine that they're not picking up unless the seals

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Speaker 6: are so tight in this car. And then when it

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Speaker 6: was jumbled going down the road, maybe at that point

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Speaker 6: in time when it gets to the compound lot, you

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Speaker 6: might not have that you know it presents at that

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Speaker 6: particular time. That's something that that has been very intriguing

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Speaker 6: to me about this. And also, there are cases out there,

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Speaker 6: and I've worked a couple of them where people will

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Speaker 6: place decedents into abandoned vehicles because nobody's gonna, you know,

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Speaker 6: if it's an abandoned vehicle. But we're not We're not

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Speaker 6: talking about average everyday Americans here. We're talking about this

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Speaker 6: guy's rent at this house. It's twenty k a month,

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Speaker 6: which most of us can't even fathom.

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Speaker 4: Twenty k a month is rent? What?

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Speaker 6: Yeah? And so, my goodness, I got to tell you

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Speaker 6: if I'm living in a neighborhood where rent is twenty

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Speaker 6: k a month, I got questions that there's a car

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Speaker 6: out on my road, on my street, adjacent to my home.

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Speaker 6: Why is this Jilope even though it's a why you know,

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Speaker 6: a tesla? Why it's got a dent, it's got Texas plates?

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Speaker 6: Why is this thing on my road? And why have

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Speaker 6: you not come to do something about it? Because I

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Speaker 6: don't want to pay this kind of money for a

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Speaker 6: house and look out there and see this iesore out there.

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Speaker 4: And it banged out too.

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Speaker 6: It's filthy, it's banned up, it's got out of state plates.

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Speaker 6: It just doesn't make sense to me that no one

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Speaker 6: picked up on.

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Speaker 4: This, right, one last little quick thing.

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Speaker 2: They did say that I can't believe his rent was

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Speaker 2: twenty k a month.

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Speaker 4: Let me just like gulp that.

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Speaker 2: But past that, the landlord of this twenty k a

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Speaker 2: month place did say that there were cameras, you know,

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Speaker 2: at the front entrance and it's not really hidden. It's like,

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Speaker 2: you know, this is a really specific part of Los Angeles.

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Speaker 2: It's very hilly, and you don't really have like an

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Speaker 2: entrance way. There's not like a front yard per se.

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Speaker 2: Like the street and the house are like one of

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Speaker 2: really close together. Yes, exactly, and kind of like you

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Speaker 2: see in the movies. It's the Hollywood Hills, right. So

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Speaker 2: the fact that a car would be sitting there yet

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Speaker 2: there were cameras, according to the landlord, that would have

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Speaker 2: really placed that vision of a camera on the street.

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Speaker 4: You're absolutely right. In fact, he said it was a

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Speaker 4: pretty advanced security system that they had installed at this house.

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Speaker 4: But we don't know who has acces us to this, Like,

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Speaker 4: did you know the occupants of the home have access

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Speaker 4: to the security? We have no idea.

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Speaker 6: Right, here's the real key here. Those aren't the only

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Speaker 6: cameras Tesla. The Tesla I heard somebody the other day Listen,

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Speaker 6: I don't have a tesla, all right. I heard somebody

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Speaker 6: say the other day there could be as many as

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Speaker 6: eight cameras on this vehicle. Not to mention, there's also

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Speaker 6: a facial camera when you key into this thing, so there,

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Speaker 6: you know, And that's what I'm wondering. Have they downloaded

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Speaker 6: had they gotten into the guts of this thing and

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Speaker 6: downloaded all of the data off the same body? And

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Speaker 6: I know that it and and and you know, technology

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Speaker 6: is really your your bag here. How long would that take?

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Speaker 6: I can't imagine it take that long or download that

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Speaker 6: data from it.

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Speaker 4: The one thing that I don't know, Joseph, is how

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Speaker 4: long it was sitting there, and also how long, like

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Speaker 4: once these things lose juice it's.

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Speaker 6: A book, right, does it purge in some right?

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Speaker 4: And that's one thing that we don't know. And if

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Speaker 4: if David was paying for like the cloud storage is

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Speaker 4: it could be indefinite. But we don't know those details.

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Speaker 4: And we don't know what like package he had, you know,

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Speaker 4: associated with this car, because you have to pay like

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Speaker 4: the Century Service, yeah, to get you know, all this

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Speaker 4: additional data. And we don't know if he had that

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Speaker 4: or not this package I would assume did. How could

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Speaker 4: we not have that information? Will be tesla that cops

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Speaker 4: will well listen, stay with us. We're going to continue

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Speaker 4: this conversation because I am not done talking about Celestrious Hernandez.

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Speaker 4: Thank you. Keep it right here. True Crime Tonight, We're

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Speaker 4: talking true crime all the time.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. We made it to Sunday, everybody,

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Speaker 2: and we hope you had a great weekend. I'm Stephanie

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Speaker 2: Leidecker here with body move in. Courtney Armstrong is she's

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Speaker 2: quit of playing at her high school reunion right now.

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Speaker 2: So that's okay because we have Joseph Scott Morgan jumping

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Speaker 2: in for Scientific Sunday and we're taking a real forensics

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Speaker 2: look at either any of the cases that we didn't

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Speaker 2: get to last week or some of the cases that

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Speaker 2: we just didn't get into the forensics enough. So if

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Speaker 2: anybody wants to jump in a eight three one crime,

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Speaker 2: we'd love to hear from you live or of course

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Speaker 2: leave us a talkback one eighty eight three one crime.

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Speaker 2: The conversation is all yours. We've been talking about David

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Speaker 2: the Pop Stars car his tesla. Again, he has not

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Speaker 2: been named suspect, nor has he been named a person

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Speaker 2: of interest. The only on its nose very interesting thing

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Speaker 2: about David is that his car in the Hollywood Hills

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Speaker 2: wasn't pounded and in the front trunk the dismembered body

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Speaker 2: of a fifteen year old girl was found, and no

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Speaker 2: arrest seems to be made. And despite the fact that

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Speaker 2: there have been cameras, et cetera, nothing seems to be

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Speaker 2: happening here.

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Speaker 4: So well, I'm so curious what does that mean?

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Speaker 2: Though it's been twenty days to your point earlier twenty days,

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Speaker 2: how is it possible that young celestes life has not

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Speaker 2: been examined in a way that we have more answers?

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Speaker 2: And I wonder if it's two things. One should so young,

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Speaker 2: and if in fact she had run away and was

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Speaker 2: running away to David who was a bit older. Is

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Speaker 2: it that story that we're all kind of gravitating to.

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Speaker 4: I think that's another story.

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Speaker 3: It's a whole other story.

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Speaker 2: Right, she went missing, mom, you know, said she was missing,

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Speaker 2: but then at some point found Celeste at David the

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Speaker 2: Pop Star's house and then brought her home again and

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Speaker 2: maybe Celeste left again. There have been notably some photographs

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Speaker 2: of them together.

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Speaker 4: So it's a complicated thing here.

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Speaker 2: So are we talking about that or are we talking

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Speaker 2: about the straight up murder of.

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Speaker 4: Young Celeste Revaz and Joseph? What is happening?

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Speaker 3: How do we not have more information right now?

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Speaker 6: It's an active homicide investigation. I think that that's probably

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Speaker 6: the long and short of it right now. And in

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Speaker 6: this kind of how can I say it, they're in

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Speaker 6: the thin air when it comes to they being the

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Speaker 6: police when it comes to celebrity, and we all know

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Speaker 6: how it impacts any investigations. They're true, and they are

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Speaker 6: being very very careful, very cautious. And so that's my

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Speaker 6: take on it, because I got to tell you, if

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Speaker 6: this was anywhere else other than the Hollywood Hills or

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Speaker 6: Beverly Hills or wherever Brentwood, you might have had more

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Speaker 6: answers by now. But I'm telling you lawyers are involved

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Speaker 6: at this point, and this is I think that it's

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Speaker 6: they're aware of it. Cops are always aware of that,

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Speaker 6: and that's why there's kind of this Well, I'd say

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Speaker 6: that there's kind of a slow drip. There's not even

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Speaker 6: a drip at this point.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we have not even been a press conference or anything, right, Like, no,

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Speaker 4: there's nothing.

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Speaker 2: I'm almost offended by it, Like why is there no

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Speaker 2: justice for Celeste?

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Speaker 4: Well, just because it's an open investigation, they're just not

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Speaker 4: telling we haven't heard anything from the court. We hear

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Speaker 4: things all the time.

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Speaker 2: I'm watching the National news daily and I see persons

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Speaker 2: of interests, and I see suspects, and I see you know,

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Speaker 2: evolving story, new information, and I see photos and video

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Speaker 2: from ring cams left and right.

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Speaker 4: What is the line? We don't even have manner or

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Speaker 4: cause of death yet in this case either, And I

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Speaker 4: wanted to touch on that really quickly, if it's okay,

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Speaker 4: the manner and cause of death. So the manner of death,

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Speaker 4: and Joseph, I feel so stupid sayings in front of

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Speaker 4: you because you're the expert in this, right. I never

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Speaker 4: want to hear that word come out of your mouth again.

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Speaker 4: It's just silly for me to do this. But anyway, okay,

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Speaker 4: So the manner is like how the cause came about

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Speaker 4: based on circumstances. So it's like manner is like is

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Speaker 4: it was it a natural death? Was it an accident?

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Speaker 4: Is it suicide. Is it homicide? That's the manner of death. Okay.

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Speaker 4: The cause of death is the specific like injury or

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Speaker 4: disease that directly led to the death. So the the

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Speaker 4: cause of death is like a gunshot or a heart attack.

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Speaker 4: We don't have any of that lost nothing.

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Speaker 6: No, don't quick question her.

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Speaker 5: What is her right now? What are they they're saying

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Speaker 5: her it's a homicide for it's blank.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's blank.

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Speaker 4: Currently it's blank.

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Speaker 6: And so you well, okay, here, first off, as a

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Speaker 6: death investigator, right, the way you handle every case, and

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Speaker 6: again I preach this over and over at Jack State

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Speaker 6: where it we work every death as if it is

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Speaker 6: a homicide until proven otherwise. And that's the way we

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Speaker 6: go about it because that's at the highest level. If

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Speaker 6: you treat every death like it's a homicide, then you're

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Speaker 6: not there's a high probability you're not going to miss

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Speaker 6: as many things, right, So you have to go in

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Speaker 6: there with that mindset, and that's hard to do for

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Speaker 6: many people, but you learn it. It's a skill set

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Speaker 6: that you learned. So now, what's what's the hold back?

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Speaker 6: And we're not talking about the police now, now we're

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Speaker 6: talking about the Emmy slash corner. They're the ones that

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Speaker 6: make that classification. It's not the police, it's not the prosecutor.

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Speaker 6: They're involved in this, and I can tell you there's

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Speaker 6: conversations happening right now. Here's the thing. I think, if

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Speaker 6: her remains, and forgive me, but this is kind of graphic,

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Speaker 6: if her remains are in an advanced state of decomposition,

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Speaker 6: they might have a very difficult time categorizing this in

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Speaker 6: one of the five manners. And unlike the law, where

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Speaker 6: you prosecute things, you have the entire cannon of the

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Speaker 6: law to choose from. It's very simple. In the medical

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Speaker 6: legal world. We only have five courses, y'all, homicide, natural,

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Speaker 6: accidental suicide, and undetermined baby. That's all we have. So

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Speaker 6: you have to classify in one of those and then

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Speaker 6: from there you draw upon your scientific examination to arrive

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Speaker 6: at a causal effect the cause of death. And we're

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Speaker 6: going to do this on crime Lab sometime. I'm going

406
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Speaker 6: to give a primer on this. You think about you

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Speaker 6: think about the five categories, you have to pick one

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Speaker 6: category that you're going to place the cause under. And

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Speaker 6: it can come if you think about a gunshot one, well,

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Speaker 6: a gunshot one can be accidental, it can be self afflicted,

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Speaker 6: it can be a homicide, it can be an undetermined Sure,

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Speaker 6: so right now they're fighting. They're fighting that scientific battle

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Speaker 6: is she's so far gone that you don't have enough evidence,

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Speaker 6: enough empirical evidence. Let's just say, for instance, she's got

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Speaker 6: an injury to her neck. Well, those muscle tissues, if

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Speaker 6: they're degraded to the point where you can't appreciate, you

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Speaker 6: can't appreciate any focal areas of hemorrhage like you would

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Speaker 6: have with a manual strangulation or literature strangulation. What I

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Speaker 6: hear in a lot of these cases, y'alls, is they'll

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Speaker 6: classified as a homicide and then they will say non

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Speaker 6: specific homicidal trauma. I've covered a myriad of cases like

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Speaker 6: this in the media, and they will use that terminology.

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Speaker 4: I've heard that before.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, this is yeah, it just means that we first off,

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Speaker 6: if what we're hearing they keep using the term dismemberment, okay,

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Speaker 6: one of the conclusions, and also concealing of a body.

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Speaker 6: Their ration, now from a legal perspective, is well, if

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Speaker 6: we why would you conceal a body? Why would you

429
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Speaker 6: dismember a body? So you think you have to take

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Speaker 6: an intellectual leap, kind of hard to prove in court.

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Speaker 6: But they're going to take an intellectual leap and say

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Speaker 6: this is gonna be homicide, and that's what they're going

433
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:18,679
Speaker 6: to base this on. And I know that's not a

434
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,359
Speaker 6: lot to hold on to. I'm just wondering right now,

435
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,200
Speaker 6: are they trying to take tissue samples? Because I think

436
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 6: any blood draw in her is going to be pretty

437
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 6: much worthless. If they can even get blood, they're going

438
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:39,400
Speaker 6: to do tissue samples, specifically brain and liver, and they'll

439
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 6: spin those down till they liquid and see what was

440
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 6: going on toxicologically in her system. And you're not gonna

441
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 6: be able to get a quantitative amount. It's only gonna

442
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 6: be qualitative. You can say, well, there was drug X

443
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,360
Speaker 6: in there, but we can't say how much of it

444
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 6: was there, and that's a lot to hanging your hat on.

445
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 6: Sign tip.

446
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 4: No it's not.

447
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 2: But there is something that's like the big elephant in

448
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 2: the room. Regardless of what her cause of death was,

449
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:15,359
Speaker 2: she wasn't shoved in a vehicle by herself. Somebody, regardless

450
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,880
Speaker 2: of how she died, decided to take her a little

451
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 2: beautiful body and throw it in the front of a

452
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 2: Tesla trunk and closed the trunk on her, and she

453
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,160
Speaker 2: left it to rot and she was packaged. So where

454
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 2: did that happen? You don't do that on the street.

455
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 2: You know, we just described these beautiful hills in Hollywood.

456
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 4: I'm gonna be honest. I know this location extremely well. Right.

457
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 2: No one's dragging a body out into the street and

458
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 2: you know, just sawing off its arms and legs and

459
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 2: dismembering it and then tossing it in a car.

460
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 3: It had to have happened someplace else.

461
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 4: This is true, Crimetonight on iHeartRadio, we're right in the

462
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,360
Speaker 4: middle of talking about the tragic death of Celestreeva Sernandez.

463
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 4: She was fourteen years old and she was found in

464
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 4: the trunk of singer David's car. Joseph this required privacy.

465
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 4: If she was right, I'll say, yeah.

466
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:06,880
Speaker 2: It did.

467
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 6: H and shameless plug here I did. I did an

468
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 6: entire episode on dismemberment about a year ago because I'm

469
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 6: seeing so many more cases come across my desk, homicides

470
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 6: that I'm covering on body backs involving this memory. I've

471
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 6: never seen this volume of them at all ever, certainly

472
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,920
Speaker 6: in practice, and then in the national news, I just

473
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,360
Speaker 6: keep catching these stories.

474
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 4: All the time, so experience with the more for.

475
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 6: A long time. When you can go into that another time.

476
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 6: But I will say this, if if someone has the

477
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 6: intestinal fortitude, I'll put it to this. And I'm being

478
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 6: very kind there to try to attempt this. You need

479
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,160
Speaker 6: privacy for one. Uh. You need to have proper tools,

480
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,360
Speaker 6: because I've seen people not use proper tools and it's

481
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 6: a nightmare. It's a nightmare anyway. You have to have

482
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 6: a power source, okay, if you're going to use power tools,

483
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 6: or at least place to charge of battery if you're

484
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 6: talking about saw saws or even skill saws or anything

485
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:16,439
Speaker 6: like that. Yeah, and you're gonna be time and you

486
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 6: can't be observed doing it, okay, So you have to

487
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 6: go somewhere that's sequestered in order to facilitate this. And

488
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 6: then you're gonna have forgive me. You're gonna have a

489
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:26,479
Speaker 6: big damn mess afterward.

490
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 4: Yep.

491
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 2: I was just going to say, this is not an

492
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 2: indoor activity either in this area. It's not as though

493
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 2: there's woods or a lot of land, or you don't

494
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 2: get lost in the sauce there. This is an inside

495
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 2: job in a home. I'm guessing in a home, right

496
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 2: And by the way, who in the right mind would

497
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 2: dismember a body and leave it in your own car

498
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 2: and then leave your own car.

499
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 4: On the side of the street. Again, it doesn't seem

500
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 4: like a great plan.

501
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 2: Well, but that doesn't really make great sense either, but

502
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 2: it does happen.

503
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 4: Who just members a body?

504
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 2: So we're again we're not dealing with regular thoughts here.

505
00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 6: No we're not. And one of the big thoughts for

506
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 6: me about that, in particular, if this precious child was

507
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 6: dismembered at a specific location, and if you're just having

508
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 6: to stow the body, bodies will begin to give off

509
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 6: of a smell. Even if they're even like in an

510
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,120
Speaker 6: air conditioned structure, not refrigerator. I'm just saying air condition structure,

511
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 6: you will begin to smell them within about two days. Okay,

512
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 6: So if this becomes so intolerable, so intolerable, what do

513
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 6: you want to do? Well, something's intolerable, and it's in

514
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 6: your dwelling or somewhere some other location, a shed or

515
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 6: something like that, and you're circulating around the body. You

516
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 6: want to put as much distance between yourself and the body.

517
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 6: But you still want to be able to keep an

518
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 6: eye on where the body is going to be. There's

519
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 6: two types of people out there that dismember bodies and

520
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 6: try to get rid of bodies. There are those that

521
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 6: dismember and bury and get rid of bodies and then

522
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 6: walk away from them. Then you've got this group of

523
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 6: people that, for some reason, after they kill somebody, dismember somebody,

524
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,959
Speaker 6: they want to hold onto the remains, even burying them

525
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 6: in their backyard, because they feel like they have control

526
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 6: over that period of time. It's a fascinating dynamic when

527
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 6: you think about it. I consulted on a case many

528
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 6: years ago where a guy killed his wife, just remembered her,

529
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 6: buried her in the backyard, and then planted a rose

530
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 6: garden over her.

531
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 3: All right, the rose garden, I mean, what a nut?

532
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 6: Yeah? Absolutely. And then the family that bought the house

533
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 6: that God finally sold the house. The cops had been

534
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 6: sitting on the house forever for a decade, and they said, hey,

535
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 6: we think there might be a body buried in your backyard.

536
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 6: Can we dig it up? Sure enough, they dug it

537
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 6: up and they found this lady's remains. And so it's

538
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 6: amazing how people want separation, but they don't want separation.

539
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 6: So if we're just thinking about the science of this decomposition,

540
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 6: then you don't want It's offensive on every level, so

541
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 6: even to the perpetrator. And plus it's a reminder trying

542
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 6: to get distance. Is that what happened here? I have

543
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 6: no idea, but it's being entertained by the police. I

544
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 6: can almost guarantee do that.

545
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: And I would have to assume that a very serious

546
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 2: drug panel is being done as well, because again.

547
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 3: Go to a drug fueled night. These are just like theory.

548
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 2: Astely, you'd have to be super on drugs to take

549
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 2: the time to think it's a smart idea to dismember

550
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 2: a human body and leave it in a car for

551
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 2: somebody else to find. It is so messed up it's

552
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 2: hard to even wrap your brain around. That's why I'm

553
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 2: just shocked that twenty days later there's not a bigger

554
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 2: call for attention from law enforcement or a larger presence

555
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 2: in the media basically saying look, I know this seems

556
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 2: real scary, but we're on it, and we all we're

557
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 2: fighting it on the front line.

558
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 4: I think we need to consider that they might be

559
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 4: very close to something and they're being quiet intentionally because

560
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 4: they don't want eyes on it right now, right because

561
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 4: extra eyes on something right now can maybe tip somebody

562
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 4: off or scare somebody, or you know, do somebody still

563
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 4: out there. There's somebody still out there at large.

564
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 2: That thinks it's a good idea to dismember a fifteen

565
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 2: year old girl's body and toss her in a vehicle

566
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 2: and walk away.

567
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 4: Right at some point, how do we know we're safe?

568
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 6: Let me ask you a question. Do you think that

569
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 6: those people that live on that road stuff. Do you

570
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 6: think that any of them have been making phone calls

571
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 6: to the DA's office and Nolan you.

572
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 4: Every single second, every single day.

573
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 6: Yeah, because they're terrified if they're safe, if they're hearing

574
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 6: the news we've got a dismembered body in an abandoned

575
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 6: car on ours. Yeah, people are going.

576
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 4: To be to be scared too. Well.

577
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 2: Listen, it's Scientific Sunday and we have Joseph Scott Morgan

578
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 2: with us, host of the hit podcast Body Bags. If

579
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 2: you haven't downloaded it yet, it's on.

580
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 4: Your iHeart, you're missing out. You are missing out by

581
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 4: the way.

582
00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 2: He does three shows a week, So come on, people, like.

583
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 4: Where did you go to school. How did you learn

584
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 4: all this stuff? I'm like, I listened to the body bags.

585
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 4: What are you talking about? I studied at the House

586
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 4: of Joseph Stockmorgan. Yes, that is very true.

587
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 6: Commencement exercise. Later I'll be diploma, So listen.

588
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 2: My diploma is on my wall because listen, you know,

589
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,719
Speaker 2: we talk about a lot of grizzly things. Joseph has

590
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 2: a way of doing it in a very sacred way,

591
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 2: and I guess it's not sensational. It's very it's very

592
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 2: just the facts, ma'am, and it kind of makes it

593
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 2: a lot more palatable. So trigger alert. We are talking

594
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 2: about some gruesome details as we do. We're also going

595
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 2: to start launching a new segment called Crime Lab. So

596
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 2: get ready, Joseph, because you are at the heart of

597
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 2: Crime Lane.

598
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 4: Professor Joseph is here.

599
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's actually a professor processor.

600
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 4: Yeah.

601
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 2: So we all have like our forensics questions that we

602
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 2: like list and then some of them are kind of

603
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 2: elementary and some of them are very sophisticated and we

604
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 2: just need to like dump them in a category and

605
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 2: Joseph can then answer them. So if you have any

606
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 2: call us eight at eight to three one Crime Hit

607
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 2: us up in our socials at True Crime Tonight's show

608
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 2: on Instagram or TikTok TikTok is crushing it, or at

609
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 2: true Crime Tonight on Facebook and.

610
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 4: Shout out to my TikTok bugs.

611
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, we've been getting a lot of tips,

612
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 2: a lot of info, a lot of.

613
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 3: A lot of theories.

614
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 2: So we're going to read some of them maybe later

615
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 2: in the show, but if you want to just join

616
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 2: us live, please do so.

617
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 4: Have you guys watched The Yogurt Shop Murders. It was

618
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 4: a documentary. You're an HBO Joseph have you seen that

619
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 4: as well?

620
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, kiman on. My wife and I started watching it

621
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 6: the other day. And of course, because I do three

622
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 6: episodes per week and I teach full Tom, we can

623
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 6: quite make it through you, and I promise you I will.

624
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 6: But yeah, this is a This is actually a case.

625
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 6: It's been on radar for a long time because you know,

626
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 6: it's one of those things in true crime that I

627
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 6: would have to say, because there's so many parents that

628
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 6: make up true crime flans, right, and this is something

629
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 6: that goes right to the heart of the worst possible

630
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 6: nightmare that any parent could ever experience on a level

631
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,719
Speaker 6: of horror that most people can't even begin to plumb

632
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 6: the depths of. And so, yeah, it's something I've had

633
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 6: an interest in, particularly when I found out that people

634
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 6: have been falsely accused and falsely imprisoned, yeah, and convicted

635
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 6: and times. Yeah, and it's heartbreaking, particularly for those individuals.

636
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 6: And then not to mention, can you imagine being a parent?

637
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 6: Just let us think in just for a second, should

638
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 6: be an a parent? And you're being told by the authorities,

639
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 6: we got.

640
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 4: Them exciting, right, You ain't got them devastating.

641
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 6: Still circulating out there, or at least you believe he's

642
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 6: still circulating if you're in a.

643
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 4: Constant state of suspended animation, right, Like, yes, you just

644
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 4: can't move on with your life. Your daughter has been killed.

645
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 4: Four beautiful daughters have been killed, obviously, you know. I mean,

646
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 4: it's just I cannot imagine being family. It's just so

647
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 4: sad for them. And by the way, this is a

648
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 4: cold case.

649
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 2: So just to bring you up to speed if you

650
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 2: haven't follow this case, it's thirty four years old.

651
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,439
Speaker 4: Thirty four years ago, I mean nineteen ninety one.

652
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 2: Imagine back right, there was this you know, infamous yogurt

653
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 2: shop in North Austin and by the way, the exact

654
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 2: same chain. I worked at the food court at the

655
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 2: smith Haven Mall, so it was like a little yogurt

656
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,919
Speaker 2: chain at that time, and these four teenagers worked there.

657
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 2: Two of them, by the way, are sisters. Eliza Thompson

658
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 2: she was seventeen years old at the time. Jennifer Harbison seventeen,

659
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 2: Sarah Harbison her sister, fifteen years old. Can you imagine

660
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 2: for the parents. And Amy Ayers, who was thirteen years old.

661
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 4: And she's friendly with sisters.

662
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 2: Potentially she was it's been like speculated that maybe she

663
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 2: was the target. She for sure had also been sexually assaulted.

664
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,280
Speaker 2: They were tied up, they were shot, they were burned.

665
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 2: I mean, this was a case of all cases. And

666
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 2: again I'm very sorry for the graphic details, but it

667
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 2: was thirty four years ago, and you know, forensically speaking,

668
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 2: it was a different time and at that time everybody

669
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 2: obviously wanted justice and they would arrest people. By the way,

670
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 2: four times there were arrests. People in the media names out.

671
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 2: Your life is ruined if you're wrongly accused of sexually

672
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 2: abusing and murdering sexually abusing one for sure, possibly two

673
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 2: and then killing four young teens. They were wrong because

674
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 2: every single time the DNA didn't match. Until just now,

675
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 2: thirty four years later, they have officially they've officially linked

676
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 2: this particular set of murders to a serial killer who

677
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 2: was now since deceased. He committed suicide back in nineteen ninety.

678
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,919
Speaker 3: Nine, I believe, and what a horror show.

679
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 2: So yes, on the one hand, there's justice, and it's

680
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 2: modern justice for a very cold case, which is kind

681
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 2: of for all of us. We're all in this to

682
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 2: kind of bring justice to the world, right, So I

683
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 2: don't know if that brings comfort to living family members

684
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 2: of the victims.

685
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 4: I can't imagine.

686
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 2: It's been an easy road and beyond measure, what a tragedy.

687
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 2: And at the same time it also speaks to the forensics. Joseph,

688
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 2: now thirty four years later, what a miracle that this

689
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 2: link has been made, and what a sad link it

690
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 2: is because a serial killer.

691
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 4: So there's so much to unpack here. There's so much unpacked.

692
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 2: Pick aside a corner of this, Joseph, what do you

693
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 2: think listen?

694
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 6: You know I was kind of slamming the authorities there

695
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 6: from a Prospects brial standpoint. But here's let me throw

696
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 6: out some kudos real quick. The fact and in the

697
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 6: spirit of crime lab, the fact that this evidence that

698
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 6: was collected loath these many years ago, by the way,

699
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 6: very fragile biological evidence has been preserved all these years,

700
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 6: that there was still enough remaining that you could do

701
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 6: this kind of sensitive test on it and show link

702
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 6: it to this individual, this monster that committed this crime.

703
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 6: Oh and by the by other crimes in other locations

704
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 6: over and over and over again, that even in death,

705
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 6: he's now known as the killer of these four young girls.

706
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 6: I think that that goes to the people in the

707
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 6: forensic section that they were because I can't tell you

708
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,359
Speaker 6: how many how many case over the years that I've

709
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 6: heard about you talk about broken hearted. We've got like

710
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 6: a rape a rape kit crisis in America where you'll

711
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 6: have rape kits that are never tested on these poor

712
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 6: victims and they're allowed to degrade and rot in evidence

713
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 6: lockers and all. I mean, the stories just go on

714
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 6: and on. In the fact that they were able to

715
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 6: retain this these samples and still run this DNA and

716
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 6: come up with this major conclusion. It's it's cold comfort,

717
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 6: I think. On one level. And here's another piece. You

718
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 6: know we were talking about, you know, how these young

719
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 6: men were arrested. As far as the family goes, they

720
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 6: never they were robbed of the opportunity to stare across

721
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 6: this guy in a courtroom as he as it's being adjudicated,

722
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 6: look him in the eye and say, you know you

723
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 6: did this, you did this. So that's that's you know,

724
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 6: vaporized as well because of the missteps in the case.

725
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 6: But the fact that they got the thing salt. This

726
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 6: guy did not show up unprepared. And the reason I

727
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 6: say that is that you've got fatal trauma that he

728
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 6: rendered on all four victims. You mentioned that they were bound.

729
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 6: Not only were they bound, they were gagged, which he brings. Yeah,

730
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 6: he creates gags in order to do this. Oh and

731
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 6: by the bye, he brings accelerant as well, in order

732
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 6: to initiate a fire. You have one victim who they

733
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 6: believe probably aim that was that bore the brunt if

734
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 6: you will of his.

735
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm going to say thirteen years old.

736
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 4: This is hard to hear.

737
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 2: By the way, So Sunday night trigger alert, just putting

738
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,760
Speaker 2: it out there. Well, keep it as clean as possible,

739
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 2: but it's almost you have to hear it to understand

740
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 2: the gravity of what an accomplishment law enforcement has just had.

741
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 6: Sorry, no, no, no, that's okay. And you can learn

742
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 6: a lot about a scene, particularly with fire. Remember when

743
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,439
Speaker 6: Austin fire showed up at the scene. This thing's fully

744
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 6: involved and God blessed. Yeah, you know, firefighters do this

745
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 6: incredible job, and I will always sing their praises. I

746
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 6: love firefighters. Boy, I would have rather been a firefighter

747
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 6: in their cop Actually, I just love firefighters and what

748
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 6: they do.

749
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 4: So dangerous, both of you.

750
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 6: Yeah, the dangers, very dangerous, dangerous work. So after they

751
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,760
Speaker 6: get the fire knockdown, they discovered three of the bodies,

752
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 6: and then later they discover one more body. And of

753
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 6: course the three primaries that they have this is to

754
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 6: the exclusion of amy, they have the most damage. And

755
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 6: that's as far as I'm going to go with it.

756
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 6: So we think the fire was probably initiated approximate because

757
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 6: one of the things you look for in fire investigation

758
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 6: is where is the primary amount of damage, Like what

759
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 6: if you're in a structure, you know, like in a

760
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 6: yogurt shop like this, where's the most damage taking place

761
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 6: compared to the rest of the of the location, so

762
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:17,359
Speaker 6: you can look for things like accelerant. I've gone out

763
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 6: on scenes where you can see where people splashed gas

764
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 6: on a wall and set the wall on fire and

765
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 6: it's actually got it's actually got waves in it where

766
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 6: you can see that the excellant roll down the wall

767
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 6: and that area is burned significantly. You think about bodies,

768
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 6: Bodies are not greate fuel, but the area around there

769
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 6: would have been set on fire, and they were exposed

770
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 6: to extreme heat, amy not as much. And as it

771
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:47,359
Speaker 6: turns out, you know, the samples that they retrieved at

772
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 6: the scene led them, led them back to this monster

773
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 6: that ended their lives. And it's it's quite quite something,

774
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 6: you know, because after this happened, he's still in the

775
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 6: land of the living. He gets still live another what

776
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 6: is it eight years, no one, and he doesn't deprive

777
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 6: us of his presence until nineteen ninety nine.

778
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 2: And his name is Robert Eugene Brasher's and he has

779
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 2: no known connection neither to the area in northern Texas,

780
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 2: northern Austin, nor to any of the victims. So there

781
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 2: was this like chain. It was called I can't believe

782
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 2: it's not yogurt. You guys might even remember it. I do, so, Yeah,

783
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 2: we've all been there. The coconut was the best seller,

784
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 2: best seller in the food court. This was sort of

785
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 2: not in the food court. It was you know, it

786
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 2: was the photographs. It was like a little bit of

787
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 2: a strip. Yeah, so you had to walk in pretty intentionally.

788
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 2: And you guys remember what those days were like Here

789
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 2: into high school. You're a teenager, you have a part

790
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 2: time job. You're in Sarah and Jennifer's case, their sisters.

791
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 2: So they're getting dropped off by mom and dad and

792
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:00,800
Speaker 2: picked up for their shift, and it's.

793
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:01,760
Speaker 4: Like a little bit social.

794
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, you cannot imagine in your right mind that some

795
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 2: serial killer is about to show up and do the

796
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 2: unimaginable things that were done to these four humans. And

797
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 2: for that to go unsolved for as long as it did,

798
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 2: and for four men to be brought in and booked

799
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 2: and charged and put on a news as people of

800
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 2: interest or suspects, that's a real life changer. One of them, yeah,

801
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 2: died without actually having his name cleared, Maurice Pierce, And

802
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,720
Speaker 2: you know that is a stain that cannot go away.

803
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,240
Speaker 2: So it's an important time and I'd like to believe,

804
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 2: or at least this is what's being said real time,

805
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 2: is that the documentary that was made by A twenty

806
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 2: four helped kind of move the needle a little bit,

807
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 2: maybe created a swell, maybe public interest became enough. Listen,

808
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:53,760
Speaker 2: this is thirty four years ago. You think the cops

809
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 2: have enough to do. You think law enforcement can go

810
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,800
Speaker 2: back in time till the end of days and solved

811
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 2: every murder that ever was. They have enough problems. There's

812
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 2: enough problems real time and crimes that are happening that

813
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 2: they need to pay their attention to. So hats off

814
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 2: to law enforcement to your point earlier that had the time,

815
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 2: the wherewithal to really stick with it and to really

816
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 2: make sure that these four, these four beautiful kids did

817
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 2: not go unnoticed and for this crime to not go unsolved.

818
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 2: It was the ballistics, right, So it was ultimately DNA.

819
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 4: Is that the thing, Joseph, Yes, yeah it was.

820
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 6: And the DNA is going to be the linkage for

821
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 6: everything as well. And this is listen. You know, we

822
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 6: go back and we think about you know, we think

823
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 6: about Golden State, and that's just the feeling, the tiniest

824
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 6: little peeling back of the veil right now, we're on that,

825
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 6: and I tell my kids all the time at university,

826
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 6: I say, listen, you're going to see things in your

827
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 6: lifetime that I can't even begin to imagine. When I'll

828
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 6: look back all those years when I started out. There's

829
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 6: so much technology. There's technology that is on that is

830
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,800
Speaker 6: in bloom right now that is going to far surpass

831
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 6: anything we could ever have imagined. And this is an

832
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 6: example of it. Where these cases are going to be

833
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 6: solved and the idea that we're going to be able

834
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 6: to go back and resurrect, almost resurrect. You know, they're dead,

835
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 6: they're going to tell their stories. That's the beauty of

836
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 6: this to me. It is it's almost poetic in a

837
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,799
Speaker 6: weird kind of way, because you know, I always like

838
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 6: to think of being an advocate for the dead, and

839
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 6: literally you're breathing life back into them all of a sudden,

840
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 6: where they're testifying beyond the grave almost. It's an amazing thing.

841
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 6: The world that we live in right now. Some people

842
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 6: say it's really dark, but guys, I got to tell you,

843
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:52,320
Speaker 6: as dark as this case is, I'm kind of hopeful, y'all.

844
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 4: Well, if I can hear, if you can hear, Joseph's

845
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 4: voice be shaken in your boots. If you've committed crimes,

846
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 4: keep it right here at True Crime Tonight, we're going

847
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 4: to do an introduction to crime that Joseph's got Morgan.

848
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 2: Keep it right here, Welcome back to True Crime tonight

849
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,839
Speaker 2: on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time, and

850
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 2: again we're kind of premiering.

851
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:25,240
Speaker 4: I think we need a premiere sound. We do exactly

852
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 4: of crime Lab.

853
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 6: When you get the music from the Looney Tunes, I.

854
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 2: Was like picturing a smoke machine and all kinds of

855
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 2: red carpet. But we're going to really do a crime

856
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 2: Lab segment where we're just really talking all things forensics,

857
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 2: not necessarily case specific. So if you have any questions

858
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 2: or thoughts you want to have answered by Joseph, please

859
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 2: join the conversation and body again, Travis Decker, there's been

860
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,320
Speaker 2: so much happening with that, and again Joseph's going to

861
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 2: weigh in on the forensics. Please because it's been a

862
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 2: long week of all Travis Decker, but a lot of

863
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 2: movement forward and hopefully a little closer to this being

864
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 2: closed A closed case, right, yeahs.

865
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 4: But as we know, we had the wonderful US Martials

866
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 4: on last week. Phenomenal, such a good, so great, so

867
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:23,760
Speaker 4: fun and so so educational. Well, they declared that Travis

868
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 4: Decker deceased, right, and they did that because the DNA

869
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 4: matched the DNA found on the clothing of the remains

870
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 4: they found match Travisdecker. Well, the Sheriff's office was like,

871
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 4: we don't actually know if the body is Travisdecker. Well,

872
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 4: we now have confirmation that the body the DNA of

873
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,879
Speaker 4: the body. If the DNAs come back, the analysis has

874
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 4: confirmed that the skeletal remains found in that remote Washington

875
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 4: wilderness they do belong to Travis Decker. But here's the problem.

876
00:47:54,040 --> 00:48:00,120
Speaker 4: Due to missing key body parts and environmental degradation, the

877
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 4: cause of death may never be determined. So we may

878
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 4: never know what happened to Travis Stecker. You know, we

879
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 4: may never know. In Joseph, what do you what do

880
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 4: you think that tells us about the state of his body,

881
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 4: because we really don't know.

882
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,760
Speaker 6: Right. Yeah, again, I'm going to issue my own trigger

883
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,879
Speaker 6: alert here because what I'm going to say is something

884
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:29,480
Speaker 6: people don't think about. The animal kingdom must be all right,

885
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 6: we have to understand that. And so one of the

886
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 6: biggest problems that you run into with with decomposing remains

887
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 6: in the animal kingdom, and if they're out in the open,

888
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:48,800
Speaker 6: is that. First off, We've talked about this previously, the aroma,

889
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 6: the smell that comes off of well, for in the

890
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 6: animal world, you're sending up a signal at that point

891
00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:00,359
Speaker 6: and here's the body, all right. And so if you've

892
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 6: got scavengers, and I'm thinking in that area of the country,

893
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 6: I'm thinking potentially wolves. Maybe I'm not really familiar with

894
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 6: the fauna there, but that's one of the things I'm

895
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:15,839
Speaker 6: thinking about, certainly coyotes, while dogs, anything else that might

896
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 6: be roaming about out there, they're looking for an opportunity

897
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 6: to feed. And so you guys would be amazed at

898
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 6: the stories I could tell you about dogs and skulls.

899
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 6: Dogs love skulls, and so many times I've worked countless

900
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 6: cases where dogs actually bring and I'm talking about domestic

901
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 6: dogs that will go out into a wooded area and

902
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 6: I'll come back with a skull.

903
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 4: Yeah.

904
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,360
Speaker 6: Well, I don't know about Yogi, but what I'm saying

905
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 6: is that dogs treat skulls like almost like balls many times. Yeah,

906
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:51,840
Speaker 6: and they're trying to get you know, they're trying to

907
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 6: get to the marrow, all right, and they're feeding. But

908
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:58,280
Speaker 6: dogs are very playful with these things. But aside from that,

909
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,439
Speaker 6: certain elements have been removed. I'm fascinated by the fact

910
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 6: that they're not giving a specific uh cause of death. Here. Now,

911
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:13,840
Speaker 6: we think about these precious angels that he murdered, right, he.

912
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 2: Murdered and he put bags over their heads, three beautiful

913
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 2: daughters that were young children that were going for a

914
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 2: little trip with dad who was unhoused at the time

915
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 2: and living out of his car, and you know, was

916
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 2: suffering from mental illness and likely off of his medication

917
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 2: and had also served our country and was suffering potentially

918
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 2: from PTSD and whose mother and his ex wife also

919
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 2: raised her hand to you know, authorities and to anyone

920
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,880
Speaker 2: to say, you know, I love him and I respect

921
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 2: him as a father, but something's not right. And this

922
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:54,800
Speaker 2: is where this lands. And it's been months and Travis

923
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 2: Decker has been at large.

924
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 4: And it's worth noting too to Joseph's point, I just

925
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 4: kind of want to underscore this just very quickly. His

926
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:06,839
Speaker 4: remains were found in five separate locations, so and they

927
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 4: were it was spread like hundreds of yards apart, and

928
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,840
Speaker 4: specifically his torso and head were missing.

929
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, and so that's that's the rub.

930
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 4: So when Joseph's talking about, you know, the skull and

931
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 4: what I just want to I don't even to know

932
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 4: that even I didn't know that.

933
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's very that's problematic because one of the things

934
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 6: that you're looking for, particularly in people that choose to

935
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 6: in their lives. Uh, you know, the most common methodology

936
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 6: for this is firearms. Secondly, for me in my world,

937
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 6: there's two ways. Primary way is is firearms. Secondarily to

938
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:46,120
Speaker 6: that is going to be hanging and in my in

939
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 6: my practice, okay, those are the two most common. So,

940
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 6: you know, one of the things that you look for,

941
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:53,359
Speaker 6: and I've had these cases where people will go out

942
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 6: into the wilderness area and they were actually using noose.

943
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 6: You have to go back and literally look at trees

944
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 6: really if their nooses hanging. Yeah, yeah, it's very common

945
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 6: to see this. And if the body gets to the

946
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:11,320
Speaker 6: point of kay, I've seen bodies that will fall away

947
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 6: from the news all yeah, they fall. Gravity takes over, particularly,

948
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 6: you know, the remains become more advanced in decompositions. So

949
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 6: the structural nature of what's holding the body in life

950
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:28,360
Speaker 6: is no longer there, so the body will literally come apart.

951
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,320
Speaker 6: If that happens, the same thing that's going to happen

952
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:33,319
Speaker 6: as if the body is on the ground, So the

953
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 6: body kind of disarticulates at that point in time or

954
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:40,760
Speaker 6: at least certain elements. It's fascinating that the head is missing.

955
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:42,879
Speaker 6: And one of the things that you would look for

956
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 6: here is if this was a self inflicted event. With

957
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 6: skulls in particular, you can look and you look at

958
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 6: the primary areas where people self inflict to see if

959
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:57,880
Speaker 6: there's a defect both an entrance and potentially an exit.

960
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 6: You look at there's fracture lines in the skull because look,

961
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 6: you know fallen that could have fallen. And also, what's

962
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 6: what have I taught before? Every death is a homicide

963
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 6: until proven otherwise.

964
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 4: So every death is a homicide until proven otherwise.

965
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, there you go, And so you have to consider

966
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 6: all that this is done. This is done in a

967
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 6: very isolated area. We don't know who else was out there,

968
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 6: and I'm not saying that anything other than as advertised happened,

969
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,759
Speaker 6: but there will always be questions about that. There will

970
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,399
Speaker 6: be people that will be generating questions about it. Oh right,

971
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 6: you know, I can guarantee you that so, particularly if

972
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:42,680
Speaker 6: your absinente skull and you're looking for those specific indicators

973
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 6: in the medical legal world, that we can go back

974
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:48,840
Speaker 6: and say definitively, okay, this is consistent with a self

975
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:49,760
Speaker 6: inflicted injury.

976
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 4: And if his torso is missing, they can't look at

977
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:55,839
Speaker 4: his organs like his liver or his heart or right,

978
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:58,280
Speaker 4: that's a any point. That's a really good point.

979
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 6: Yes, So this is what I would say. It would

980
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 6: not surprise me if other elements are found at a

981
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 6: later time, that is not beyond a possibility. Animals, particularly

982
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:16,879
Speaker 6: burrowing animals, will take bits of skeletal remains and take

983
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:19,919
Speaker 6: them into their burrow. Oh yeah, yeah, And what they're

984
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 6: trying to do is get the minerals out of the bone.

985
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 6: And this is this is a free meal for them.

986
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 6: They don't have to go looking digging in the ground

987
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 6: for things. This is there, so they're going to do.

988
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 6: It's a way of nature, and so that can happen.

989
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:35,360
Speaker 6: But you're talking about a big element with a skull.

990
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:37,319
Speaker 6: What could have happened to the skull? Where did it

991
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 6: wind up? It would not surprise me at all, somebody

992
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,240
Speaker 6: might stumble upon it at some point, Tom. And also

993
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:48,799
Speaker 6: if they're saying skull, the jaw will disarticulate.

994
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,240
Speaker 4: Too, So you got separate piece, right.

995
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 6: Two separate pieces that could be missing. You're looking for

996
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 6: teeth as well, anything that's there that can be an

997
00:54:57,120 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 6: element that you can.

998
00:54:58,200 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 4: It's a lot to unpacked.

999
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 2: By the way, Another thing to this case that I

1000
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 2: thought was always interesting also is that he was searching

1001
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 2: for exits to.

1002
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:08,280
Speaker 4: Canada with his daughters.

1003
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 2: Whether with his daughters or maybe post harming his daughters,

1004
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 2: we really will never know. But it was intentional. So

1005
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:19,400
Speaker 2: this was not a snap of judgment. This was something

1006
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:21,640
Speaker 2: that it appears he was planning. And I think that

1007
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 2: too needs a proper unpack. By the way, if you're

1008
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 2: just joining us, jump in eight eight eight three one crime.

1009
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:34,400
Speaker 2: We're talking about the recent confirmation that Travis Decker is

1010
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 2: in fact the one who murdered his three daughters so

1011
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:43,520
Speaker 2: incredibly tragically. He was like searching for all things Canada

1012
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 2: as if he was going to escape. He had been

1013
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:49,560
Speaker 2: serving in the military, he did have some tactical training

1014
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 2: back in the day, and had hit hard times. He

1015
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 2: wasn't working and he was kind of living on the

1016
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,800
Speaker 2: lamb and living in his car and co parenting with

1017
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:04,840
Speaker 2: ex and you know his ex wife was concerned about

1018
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:08,760
Speaker 2: this particular trip that was outside of their co parenting plan.

1019
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 2: She had full custody. And you can't imagine a more

1020
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:15,480
Speaker 2: tragic ending. So the fact that we know it that

1021
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 2: he's at he's not at large, right, so that area

1022
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 2: is safe and law enforcement again, hats off to the

1023
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:27,880
Speaker 2: US Marshals and every other law enforcement involved. Really dangerous stuff.

1024
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 2: You have somebody who clearly suffers from a lot mentally

1025
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 2: and is on the lamb. They put their lives in

1026
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:39,080
Speaker 2: danger to even go foot by foot by foot. Interestingly,

1027
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:43,319
Speaker 2: he was less than a mile away from where where

1028
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 2: the vehicle was found and the children were found.

1029
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 4: So, oh, that's a tough one. It's a tough one.

1030
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 4: Hard little reset here.

1031
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:53,359
Speaker 2: But you know I am since we have Joseph here,

1032
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 2: because it's again it's one that's in the news, but

1033
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:59,240
Speaker 2: also one of fascination I think amongst us as well.

1034
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:03,360
Speaker 2: Remember back in New York City, it was midtown Manhattan,

1035
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:07,960
Speaker 2: and you know, this man with the biggest gun you've

1036
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 2: ever seen, as if it was right out of the

1037
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:15,719
Speaker 2: worst scariest movie the Street just you know, Midtown Manhattan.

1038
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 2: Shane Timura was his name, and it was one of

1039
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 2: those rifles. And I'm spacing on the name right now, Jo,

1040
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 2: you'll know in AR fifteen, Oh yeah, he's like wearing

1041
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:29,840
Speaker 2: like a very well dressed suit. He's holding in AR

1042
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 2: fifteen and walks into a building and was looking to

1043
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 2: basically be lethal on the headquarters of the NFL. He

1044
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 2: gets into the elevator again, gun in hand, and instead

1045
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 2: gets off on the wrong floor. He gets off on

1046
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:49,880
Speaker 2: the thirty third floor, and he starts shooting and lives

1047
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:54,960
Speaker 2: are lost. He kills four human beings, then he kills himself.

1048
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:58,440
Speaker 2: And you know, when investigators go to his home, and

1049
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:00,560
Speaker 2: we'll get into the victims too, because I did not

1050
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 2: want that to get lost in this story. But when

1051
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 2: investigators go to his home, they find a note basically

1052
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 2: he's apologizing to his mom and basically saying he believes

1053
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 2: that his brain needs to be studied, that he's had

1054
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:19,560
Speaker 2: concussions from football. Ps he only played football in high school.

1055
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 2: It wasn't like he was actually in the NFL. Imagine

1056
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:25,920
Speaker 2: if he were in the NFL. And sure enough, it

1057
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:30,920
Speaker 2: just comes in that his neuropathology I think I'm saying

1058
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 2: that right, would suggest that, sure enough, he had these

1059
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:39,680
Speaker 2: CT scans in all kinds of issues with his brain,

1060
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 2: similarly to Aaron Hernandez, also the NFL player whose brain

1061
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 2: had been studied.

1062
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 3: In fact, they say of all the.

1063
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:53,920
Speaker 2: Deceased NFL players, deceased ones, ninety percent of them have

1064
00:58:54,160 --> 00:59:01,680
Speaker 2: this CT situation, meaning that concus after concussion and hit

1065
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 2: after hit on your head causes you to be super

1066
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 2: discombobulated and oh my gosh, potentially very angry, having erratic bouts,

1067
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:15,840
Speaker 2: being very irrational, and frankly obviously very violent as in

1068
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:19,280
Speaker 2: this case. I mean in Shane's case, again, he was

1069
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 2: not in the NFL. He was targeting the NFL, which

1070
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 2: also would suggest his brain was pretty clear, because he

1071
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 2: wrote a note basically saying, hey, study my brain, and

1072
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 2: I think it's all about my CT scans.

1073
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:34,520
Speaker 4: But at the same time is.

1074
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 2: Going out and killing four four victims that had nothing

1075
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 2: to do with him or the NFL, not that that

1076
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:44,400
Speaker 2: would have mannered and Joseph, I'm so curious what your

1077
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 2: take on this is.

1078
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 6: Well, you know, it's become pretty standard now where there

1079
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:54,240
Speaker 6: will be a an autopsy on many of these individuals

1080
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:57,640
Speaker 6: that have played in the NFL, and many times family

1081
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 6: wants this done because they can try to understand some

1082
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:07,320
Speaker 6: of the behaviors. And you have significant brain changes. Just

1083
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,880
Speaker 6: imagine this that every time you're struck in the head,

1084
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 6: you have what are called microbleeds that occur that literally

1085
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 6: little bits of brain tissue die in that little focal area,

1086
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:24,240
Speaker 6: perhaps almost like a little mini stroke like a t

1087
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:28,640
Speaker 6: I A not quite an extent, but it happens every time,

1088
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 6: over and over again. Also, the brain begins to atrophy,

1089
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:35,920
Speaker 6: and you see this at autopsy. That's one of the

1090
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 6: first things that strikes you at autopsy when the brain

1091
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:40,800
Speaker 6: is taken out and you can see, you know, brain

1092
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 6: has a very specific kind of structure to it, and

1093
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:46,480
Speaker 6: when you hold it and when you look at it,

1094
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:51,080
Speaker 6: you don't expect it to be kind of shriveled within

1095
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 6: within the cranial vault. And many times you will see

1096
01:00:56,080 --> 01:01:00,640
Speaker 6: this kind of reduction of the brain. That's an indication

1097
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 6: that something is going on, probably trauma related, and this

1098
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:07,960
Speaker 6: is going to impact behavior through and through And just

1099
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 6: imagine this is happening over and over and over against.

1100
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:13,479
Speaker 4: That's a young age too at.

1101
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:14,200
Speaker 6: A young age.

1102
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:16,720
Speaker 2: You're not you're not even like your your low your

1103
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:20,120
Speaker 2: frontal lobes aren't even formed. Listen more on this to come.

1104
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 2: We're going to go to crime Lab. This is true

1105
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:35,280
Speaker 2: Crime Tonight. We're talking true crime all the time. Welcome

1106
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:38,600
Speaker 2: back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

1107
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:41,280
Speaker 2: crime all the time. We've been talking a lot about

1108
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 2: the CT scans. Am I saying that right, josephs And

1109
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:48,600
Speaker 2: do I sound like a doctor of sorts? Which we

1110
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:54,240
Speaker 2: pretty much close enough. And the case of Shane Timura.

1111
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 2: He was the man that was carrying in AR fifteen

1112
01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:00,560
Speaker 2: in midtown Manhattan, broad daylight, middle of the day.

1113
01:02:00,600 --> 01:02:01,360
Speaker 4: If you don't know that.

1114
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:04,240
Speaker 2: Area in New York City, it's you know, it's like

1115
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 2: kind of business y. It's packed everybody. Imagine it's like

1116
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:11,400
Speaker 2: working girl. Everyone's in a suit or you know, everyone's

1117
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 2: going somewhere. And this guy is walking very well dressed,

1118
01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 2: carrying the largest gun you could imagine, and he's targeting

1119
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 2: the NFL headquarters. And he goes in and instead of

1120
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:28,840
Speaker 2: going to the NFL headquarters, he mistakenly gets off at

1121
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 2: the thirty third floor, which is not the NFL headquarters

1122
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 2: and he starts shooting and innocent people are killed.

1123
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 3: He leaves a note.

1124
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:41,480
Speaker 2: Later, authorities find out that he had left a note

1125
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 2: apologizing to his mother and then begging people to please

1126
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:48,400
Speaker 2: study his brain, that he believed that there was something

1127
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:51,800
Speaker 2: wrong with it from his time playing football.

1128
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 4: Yes, he wasn't the NFL.

1129
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:57,640
Speaker 2: He was not in the NFL, although targeting it. Oddly,

1130
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 2: he just played high school football. His CTE scans have

1131
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 2: now come back and it's accurate. He had some you know,

1132
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:11,960
Speaker 2: soft go to me that he justbopulated. He was aware

1133
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 2: enough to write that letter.

1134
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:15,280
Speaker 4: He was aware enough that he knew something was wrong

1135
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 4: with him, and he wrote a letter like he knew

1136
01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:19,560
Speaker 4: what he was doing was wrong, but he did it anyway.

1137
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:23,120
Speaker 2: I find that fascinating. And to that end, he was,

1138
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:26,360
Speaker 2: you know, living in Vegas. He traveled from Vegas to

1139
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:29,600
Speaker 2: New York City. He was working sort of in the

1140
01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:33,520
Speaker 2: kind of like the cyber surveillance side of things at

1141
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:37,479
Speaker 2: a place called the Horseshoe Body of Casino Casino there.

1142
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:40,480
Speaker 2: So again, this is a smart man who had obviously

1143
01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:45,520
Speaker 2: has a job and is doing things that require your

1144
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:50,680
Speaker 2: brain ironically, and he somehow, you know, coughs up his

1145
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:53,760
Speaker 2: He decides to get a gun an Ar fifteen from

1146
01:03:53,760 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 2: his supervisor, purchases that good, and then decides to drive

1147
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:01,479
Speaker 2: from Las Vegas to New York City, by the way,

1148
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:02,480
Speaker 2: across country.

1149
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 3: That's a very long drive if you haven't done it, and.

1150
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:09,640
Speaker 2: You know, takes the lives of for incredible humans in taha,

1151
01:04:10,120 --> 01:04:12,520
Speaker 2: you and I prior to the show today, we're just

1152
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:14,680
Speaker 2: saying like that, the victims so.

1153
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:16,919
Speaker 4: Rarely get the voice here.

1154
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:20,400
Speaker 2: Yes, the NFL was the target, and thank god, everybody's

1155
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:23,920
Speaker 2: okay there, I mean, thank god, but it just shows

1156
01:04:23,920 --> 01:04:29,320
Speaker 2: the sliding doors of his intention got side swipes and

1157
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:31,960
Speaker 2: he literally got off on the wrong four and then

1158
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:36,200
Speaker 2: therefore for innocent humans. Not that anybody in the NFL

1159
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:41,160
Speaker 2: had it coming either, sure obviously, but like it's just

1160
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:44,480
Speaker 2: in a second, it's over for nothing.

1161
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:47,440
Speaker 5: And I'd love to just you know, sometimes we get

1162
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:50,280
Speaker 5: so deep into these stories and we don't point out

1163
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:52,560
Speaker 5: the victims and their lives lost. So I just want

1164
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:55,080
Speaker 5: to think their names and just kind of point that out.

1165
01:04:55,720 --> 01:04:58,800
Speaker 5: The four victims. It was a di de LaRue Islam.

1166
01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:01,520
Speaker 5: He was an off duty New York City police officer

1167
01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 5: who was working in a security capassit.

1168
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:05,680
Speaker 4: Oh, so he was just making extra money standing guard

1169
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:08,000
Speaker 4: though it was a total side hustle.

1170
01:05:08,080 --> 01:05:11,040
Speaker 5: And probably trying to help a family exactly.

1171
01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 4: That happens all the time, working secure.

1172
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:18,600
Speaker 5: Working horrible. Wesley la Patner, he was a Blackstone executive.

1173
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 5: We also had Ailand Uh and Eton and I think

1174
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:27,560
Speaker 5: it's pronounced he was also a security guard. And Julia Hyman,

1175
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:30,720
Speaker 5: who was an employee at Roodent Management. So our hearts

1176
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:33,800
Speaker 5: go out to their family member the tragic loss that

1177
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:37,200
Speaker 5: they they've all gone through. So yeah, I just wanted

1178
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:39,919
Speaker 5: to make sure we pointed out those family members.

1179
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:42,680
Speaker 4: This guy's in high school. He's got a developing brain.

1180
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:45,680
Speaker 4: We know this, right, you know, and his frontal lobes

1181
01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:49,480
Speaker 4: are not developed. Right. He's playing a rough sport by

1182
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:53,200
Speaker 4: you know, he's playing high school football. He gets moved

1183
01:05:53,240 --> 01:05:56,240
Speaker 4: around a little bit and he develops his CTE and

1184
01:05:56,280 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 4: then maybe kind of over time while he's still developing, right,

1185
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:06,400
Speaker 4: he's still forming that that frontal lobe because it's messed

1186
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:09,480
Speaker 4: up from the CTE, his wires get crossed. Is that

1187
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:13,360
Speaker 4: is that basically what happened. Yeah, that's what happens.

1188
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:18,080
Speaker 6: And we're going to the interesting. I'm sorry, go ahead please, no, no, No.

1189
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:20,040
Speaker 6: One of the fascinating things about this one of the

1190
01:06:20,080 --> 01:06:25,040
Speaker 6: symptomologies with CTE is UH Steph, you were talking about,

1191
01:06:25,160 --> 01:06:27,680
Speaker 6: you know, kind of the planning aspect of this. You know,

1192
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:29,720
Speaker 6: it's if you're going to get in a car and

1193
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:35,280
Speaker 6: drive from the Vegas area Manhattan. Yeah. But an interesting

1194
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:37,800
Speaker 6: side to this is that one of the things that

1195
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 6: happens with CTE UH patients is that they have impulse

1196
01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:48,600
Speaker 6: control issues. You know, they rage, they rage, and you know,

1197
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:53,040
Speaker 6: this is the fascinating aspect of this is that a

1198
01:06:53,200 --> 01:06:56,640
Speaker 6: neurologists could certainly frame this better than me. I'm going

1199
01:06:56,680 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 6: to make a very poor effort at this. This is

1200
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:03,720
Speaker 6: not impulsivity. I wouldn't think or how how long can

1201
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:07,760
Speaker 6: you sustain impulsivity? Can you sustain it? On a two

1202
01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:11,000
Speaker 6: thousand plus all drive this?

1203
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:14,800
Speaker 4: I think he would have gone to the raiders here

1204
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:17,080
Speaker 4: in Vegas, right, he would have gone to the borders here.

1205
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:21,120
Speaker 6: Yeah, And that's which is pretty excellent. That's an excellent point. Body,

1206
01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:23,600
Speaker 6: you know, why not go you know, why not go

1207
01:07:23,720 --> 01:07:27,000
Speaker 6: to a representative of the NFL. No, he's going to

1208
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:28,080
Speaker 6: downtown man.

1209
01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 4: That he's planning yes.

1210
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:33,560
Speaker 6: Absolutely, and and what look, I've seen a lot of

1211
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:36,960
Speaker 6: let me see, how can I frame this politely interesting

1212
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:39,720
Speaker 6: things in Manhattan over the course of my life having

1213
01:07:39,720 --> 01:07:43,960
Speaker 6: gone up there, some scary stuff too, even by my

1214
01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 6: standards and the but the thought of seeing the guy,

1215
01:07:48,320 --> 01:07:52,280
Speaker 6: you know, walking down the street with a shouldered AR

1216
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:55,919
Speaker 6: fifteen is something that even the people in New York

1217
01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:58,960
Speaker 6: are not used to see, right, and that he walks

1218
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:01,000
Speaker 6: in You know a lot of people a pardon and

1219
01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:03,280
Speaker 6: I take exception of this. There are people that will say, well,

1220
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:05,960
Speaker 6: why didn't somebody stop them? Would you stop?

1221
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:09,040
Speaker 4: They thought it was vake? I bet you they thought

1222
01:08:09,080 --> 01:08:11,320
Speaker 4: it was fake. Like if you're a New Yorker.

1223
01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:14,400
Speaker 2: I'm a former New Yorker, taha jump in. I could

1224
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:17,240
Speaker 2: see somebody walk down the street naked, and you don't

1225
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:20,080
Speaker 2: really respond, You don't really react. You assume they're making

1226
01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:22,280
Speaker 2: a movie or there's something fabulous happening.

1227
01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:25,040
Speaker 4: It's it's performance art. You know.

1228
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:27,559
Speaker 2: You see somebody in a suit walking into a building

1229
01:08:27,600 --> 01:08:30,559
Speaker 2: a high rise with an AR fifteen, like the Joker,

1230
01:08:31,160 --> 01:08:33,800
Speaker 2: and honestly, you assume it's a it's a It's like

1231
01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:37,120
Speaker 2: a there must be filming a movie, right, and you

1232
01:08:37,280 --> 01:08:39,640
Speaker 2: also as a New Yorker, you're like mind your business,

1233
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:42,240
Speaker 2: you know, until told otherwise.

1234
01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:42,840
Speaker 4: And then you jump right in.

1235
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:45,840
Speaker 3: And every hero New Yorkers, they know how to be

1236
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:46,479
Speaker 3: hero is.

1237
01:08:46,439 --> 01:08:49,240
Speaker 4: More than anyone. You don't.

1238
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:52,639
Speaker 2: Your brain can't handle what you're seeing. It was broad daylight,

1239
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:53,080
Speaker 2: it was.

1240
01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:56,880
Speaker 4: The middle of the day. You assume it's staged or

1241
01:08:56,920 --> 01:09:01,120
Speaker 4: for a reason. Yeah, this guy did not look dangerous.

1242
01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:04,879
Speaker 4: Wow ar fifteen.

1243
01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:07,840
Speaker 2: So yeah, and listen again, I think we're going to

1244
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:11,519
Speaker 2: do a larger unpack of this. Well, I think that, yeah,

1245
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:13,639
Speaker 2: like really looking at the brain and we can talk.

1246
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:17,200
Speaker 4: About Aaron Hernandez or something like exact web.

1247
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:21,599
Speaker 6: Yeah, there's a of people that have been impacted by

1248
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:27,320
Speaker 6: CTE and how many more that before happening, there was

1249
01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:30,439
Speaker 6: such a thing as a diagnosis of c how many

1250
01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 6: more people have passed on? Yeah, have passed on in

1251
01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:37,320
Speaker 6: their lives and no one really knew how to identify it.

1252
01:09:37,680 --> 01:09:39,640
Speaker 6: And this is something that's been going on forever and ever.

1253
01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:42,400
Speaker 6: And listen, when it comes to football and the technology

1254
01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:47,519
Speaker 6: they have relative to helmets now, it's you know, years

1255
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:50,000
Speaker 6: when dinosaurs were on the Earth and I was wearing

1256
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:51,480
Speaker 6: a suspension helmet.

1257
01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:55,639
Speaker 4: Market and you're a suspension helmet.

1258
01:09:56,080 --> 01:09:59,719
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, and you come out that's a cute

1259
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:04,400
Speaker 6: at abraded because of the canvas that the thing is

1260
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:09,200
Speaker 6: made out of. You know, I've suffered multiple concussions, you know,

1261
01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:12,920
Speaker 6: throughout throughout my life. Oh yeah, yeah, I've had at

1262
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:15,960
Speaker 6: least four I think of, of course, yeah, football and

1263
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:19,439
Speaker 6: various other things that I won't get into. But anyway,

1264
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:23,720
Speaker 6: uh yeah, So you know, you think about that cumulative

1265
01:10:23,840 --> 01:10:26,879
Speaker 6: event over a period of time, and I'm nothing compared

1266
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:31,839
Speaker 6: to these guys who while you're participating in a football game. Okay,

1267
01:10:32,320 --> 01:10:34,479
Speaker 6: some people have said that that's like being in a

1268
01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:38,599
Speaker 6: sixty minute long car crash. Wow, just let that sink in,

1269
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:41,839
Speaker 6: just for a moment that you're just pounding and pounding

1270
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:44,200
Speaker 6: away and not everybody gets hitting the head on every

1271
01:10:44,240 --> 01:10:47,240
Speaker 6: single play, but the fact that you're getting hit in

1272
01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:50,400
Speaker 6: the head, this is not a normal thing that people

1273
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:54,160
Speaker 6: go through. Does the technology that they have now, does

1274
01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:56,719
Speaker 6: it knock down the chance that you're going to develop

1275
01:10:56,800 --> 01:10:58,200
Speaker 6: seteam I have no idea.

1276
01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:02,840
Speaker 2: I can imagine that. Honestly, We'll talk about the Aaron

1277
01:11:02,880 --> 01:11:06,120
Speaker 2: Hernandez thing. Aaron Hernandez for those who are listening, who

1278
01:11:06,160 --> 01:11:08,559
Speaker 2: don't know who that is as a former NFL star

1279
01:11:09,240 --> 01:11:16,080
Speaker 2: who has since died and also infamously had this CTE issue,

1280
01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:18,960
Speaker 2: And maybe we'll have somebody in the brain space who

1281
01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:22,639
Speaker 2: can talk about frontal lobes and their development and their

1282
01:11:22,760 --> 01:11:27,559
Speaker 2: lack of ability to sort of see consequences. And by

1283
01:11:27,600 --> 01:11:30,559
Speaker 2: the way, you're listening to true crime tonight, so jump

1284
01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:32,360
Speaker 2: in eight eight eight three one Crime.

1285
01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:34,000
Speaker 4: We'd love to hear from you.

1286
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:35,960
Speaker 2: You could also leave us a talkback, So if you

1287
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:39,360
Speaker 2: have something for Joseph or for body come on, we

1288
01:11:39,400 --> 01:11:42,439
Speaker 2: want to hear all of it. It is Scientific Sunday,

1289
01:11:42,520 --> 01:11:46,240
Speaker 2: and we're going to be unleashing Joseph Scott Morgan into

1290
01:11:46,280 --> 01:11:50,080
Speaker 2: the crime lab later in the show to discuss some

1291
01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:54,479
Speaker 2: new things like body farms. That's a tease if you're

1292
01:11:54,520 --> 01:11:57,519
Speaker 2: not familiar with what that is. You want to be

1293
01:11:57,680 --> 01:12:01,280
Speaker 2: familiar with what that is body So body farms.

1294
01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:03,639
Speaker 4: Listen. We've teased body farms a little bit and we've

1295
01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:06,080
Speaker 4: talked about it, you know, here and there, but whatnot.

1296
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:08,439
Speaker 4: But I really this is going to be our unpack

1297
01:12:08,479 --> 01:12:11,360
Speaker 4: of the of the body farms, right, why they're important

1298
01:12:11,400 --> 01:12:14,240
Speaker 4: at last, right, and we have just here thank God finally. Right,

1299
01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:18,120
Speaker 4: and listen, this isn't a place where you know, I'm

1300
01:12:18,200 --> 01:12:22,719
Speaker 4: being farmed body moving right, It's it's literally a body farm.

1301
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:24,080
Speaker 4: We wouldn't have it.

1302
01:12:24,280 --> 01:12:26,559
Speaker 2: We would find you and we would get you back,

1303
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:28,639
Speaker 2: but nobody's allowed to farm out.

1304
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:32,759
Speaker 4: So these are these are outdoor, typically outdoor. They're forensic

1305
01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:38,200
Speaker 4: anthropology research facilities, and they allow scientists and researchers to

1306
01:12:38,640 --> 01:12:44,280
Speaker 4: closely study how the body decomposes in different environments, right

1307
01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:48,200
Speaker 4: under real world conditions. So they'll sometimes they'll they'll bury

1308
01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:50,960
Speaker 4: a body, they'll leave it out exposed in the case

1309
01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:55,599
Speaker 4: of like maybe the Travis Decker situation, they'll submerge bodies

1310
01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:58,360
Speaker 4: and you know, in water, they'll put them in a

1311
01:12:58,439 --> 01:13:02,960
Speaker 4: car in a trunk, the different different, different things, right,

1312
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:07,320
Speaker 4: And they'll they'll analyze the kind of you know, depending

1313
01:13:07,360 --> 01:13:10,040
Speaker 4: on the area of the country, the kinds of bugs

1314
01:13:10,080 --> 01:13:14,000
Speaker 4: that you know for you are there the lack of bugs.

1315
01:13:14,080 --> 01:13:17,960
Speaker 4: And if you guys remember Casey Anthony or Kaylee Anthony's case, right,

1316
01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:21,240
Speaker 4: the little Kaylee Anthony, Casey Anthony was on trial. They

1317
01:13:21,360 --> 01:13:26,040
Speaker 4: even took air and like bottled up the air around

1318
01:13:26,080 --> 01:13:32,200
Speaker 4: a decomposing body and analyzed the air around the decomposing

1319
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:35,519
Speaker 4: body to see if Kaylee was in Casey's trunk. Do

1320
01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:37,760
Speaker 4: you guys remember this? And they did this at a

1321
01:13:37,760 --> 01:13:40,640
Speaker 4: body farm. And this is how I came to know

1322
01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:43,479
Speaker 4: about body farms was from the Kalyan Anthony case. It

1323
01:13:43,600 --> 01:13:46,720
Speaker 4: was very interesting. Well, the original body farm, I'm just

1324
01:13:46,720 --> 01:13:48,479
Speaker 4: going to go into what body farms are. And then

1325
01:13:48,600 --> 01:13:52,000
Speaker 4: the second that you guys, we're gonna have Joseph unleashed. Okay,

1326
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:57,880
Speaker 4: so you're unleashed with Joseph. He's already doing a little dance,

1327
01:13:57,960 --> 01:14:03,680
Speaker 4: all right. So the original body farm the Forensic Anthropology

1328
01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:07,759
Speaker 4: Center at the University of Tennessee. It's in Knoxville, Tennessee,

1329
01:14:07,800 --> 01:14:12,040
Speaker 4: and it was started by forensic anthropologists doctor William Bass

1330
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:14,800
Speaker 4: in nineteen seventy one. I mean, this has been for

1331
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:19,639
Speaker 4: so long. People donate their bodies to science to help

1332
01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:24,200
Speaker 4: to help death investigators, you know, figure out what happens

1333
01:14:24,200 --> 01:14:26,160
Speaker 4: to your body if it's left out in the open.

1334
01:14:26,200 --> 01:14:29,719
Speaker 4: I mean, this is really important stuff, right because like

1335
01:14:29,720 --> 01:14:33,160
Speaker 4: like Susanne Morphew, how she was discovered. I bet you,

1336
01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:36,240
Speaker 4: I bet you we would learn that some of the

1337
01:14:36,280 --> 01:14:41,040
Speaker 4: things that they found was Susanne morphew, they learned via

1338
01:14:41,120 --> 01:14:43,960
Speaker 4: what happened at a body farm, right, I agree? I

1339
01:14:44,120 --> 01:14:46,519
Speaker 4: so agree. Right, So this is like, this is not

1340
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:49,000
Speaker 4: I mean, we're kind of, you know, having a little

1341
01:14:49,040 --> 01:14:50,600
Speaker 4: fun and talking about it when not, but this is

1342
01:14:50,640 --> 01:14:54,519
Speaker 4: like serious, important work that's being done. And I'm the

1343
01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:57,519
Speaker 4: people that donate their bodies to science, hats off to you,

1344
01:14:57,720 --> 01:14:59,840
Speaker 4: by the way, if you're considering doing that. My mom

1345
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:03,160
Speaker 4: wanted to and I forbade her because I wanted her ashes. Immediately,

1346
01:15:03,200 --> 01:15:04,920
Speaker 4: I was like, no, she was going to donate her

1347
01:15:04,920 --> 01:15:07,559
Speaker 4: body to the University of Michigan. I was like, is

1348
01:15:07,560 --> 01:15:09,479
Speaker 4: that a thing? Should we do that? I guess we

1349
01:15:09,479 --> 01:15:10,080
Speaker 4: should should.

1350
01:15:10,320 --> 01:15:12,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, maybe we should be thinking about it. And then I

1351
01:15:12,680 --> 01:15:15,800
Speaker 5: did have a question already immediately, but do they immediately

1352
01:15:15,880 --> 01:15:18,280
Speaker 5: like if there's a crime, do they mimic that crime

1353
01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:21,080
Speaker 5: with some of these donated bodies to try to understand it?

1354
01:15:21,200 --> 01:15:23,720
Speaker 4: Or I mean, I'm sure I don't.

1355
01:15:24,200 --> 01:15:25,920
Speaker 5: For Joseph's list of things.

1356
01:15:26,160 --> 01:15:27,559
Speaker 4: We're going to have to wait for crime, I have

1357
01:15:27,600 --> 01:15:28,559
Speaker 4: to believe a talkback.

1358
01:15:28,640 --> 01:15:30,439
Speaker 2: I'm going to call Dring the break and leave a

1359
01:15:30,479 --> 01:15:31,799
Speaker 2: quick talkback for Joseph.

1360
01:15:31,840 --> 01:15:34,439
Speaker 4: I mean, this is just this is how you know,

1361
01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:37,320
Speaker 4: they studied this in a really controlled environment. You know,

1362
01:15:38,360 --> 01:15:43,080
Speaker 4: individuals who cannot be identified or with no locatable next

1363
01:15:43,080 --> 01:15:45,640
Speaker 4: I can are also providers to this facility. So like

1364
01:15:45,720 --> 01:15:48,800
Speaker 4: Jane and John doees can also be used. And this

1365
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:51,000
Speaker 4: is not a disrespectful thing. I mean, these people are

1366
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:56,240
Speaker 4: revered for doing so, right Like, Yeah, their contributions to

1367
01:15:56,320 --> 01:15:59,000
Speaker 4: society are not going unnoticed on True Crime tonight. I'll

1368
01:15:59,000 --> 01:16:00,960
Speaker 4: tell you that right now. Once they're in the facility,

1369
01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:04,240
Speaker 4: the bodies are just left to decompose naturally under different

1370
01:16:04,280 --> 01:16:09,520
Speaker 4: conditions again under the sun, in the shade, buried, submerged

1371
01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:13,479
Speaker 4: in an enclosed container of some kind. And right now,

1372
01:16:13,479 --> 01:16:16,400
Speaker 4: there are seven body farms in the US, and listen,

1373
01:16:16,479 --> 01:16:19,880
Speaker 4: it's important that they are because they're different environments. Right

1374
01:16:20,360 --> 01:16:22,880
Speaker 4: body decomposing in New Mexico is going to be very

1375
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:25,640
Speaker 4: different than a body in Georgia. Humidity is going to

1376
01:16:25,640 --> 01:16:29,040
Speaker 4: play a piece, you know, the arid desert environment of

1377
01:16:29,240 --> 01:16:31,880
Speaker 4: New Mexico's going to play a piece. It's all very

1378
01:16:31,920 --> 01:16:35,720
Speaker 4: important and contributes to the science I want to know.

1379
01:16:36,479 --> 01:16:39,519
Speaker 2: So if I donate my body to the body farm,

1380
01:16:39,720 --> 01:16:43,679
Speaker 2: it will in fact be used for science. Joseph we'll

1381
01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:45,439
Speaker 2: come back to that. So we're going to be right back.

1382
01:16:45,520 --> 01:16:48,760
Speaker 2: This is true Crime tonight. We're talking body farms. You know,

1383
01:16:48,800 --> 01:16:51,679
Speaker 2: we're doing a little crime lab with Joseph Scott Morgan.

1384
01:16:52,240 --> 01:17:00,920
Speaker 2: We're talking true crime all the time. Stay with us,

1385
01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:08,920
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We've been

1386
01:17:08,960 --> 01:17:12,040
Speaker 2: talking a lot of true crime for a very long

1387
01:17:12,120 --> 01:17:15,439
Speaker 2: time now. On Scientific Sunday, we've been knee deep in

1388
01:17:15,520 --> 01:17:19,120
Speaker 2: the Joseph Scott Morgan Crime Lab. That's our new segment,

1389
01:17:19,160 --> 01:17:22,200
Speaker 2: that's what we're calling it, Crime Lab dund undone, and

1390
01:17:22,200 --> 01:17:24,719
Speaker 2: we're talking about body farms, which is a really serious

1391
01:17:24,760 --> 01:17:30,679
Speaker 2: thing in terms of science and moving investigations forward. You know, Joseph,

1392
01:17:30,800 --> 01:17:34,360
Speaker 2: we've you know, discussed the body farms on so many

1393
01:17:34,479 --> 01:17:37,760
Speaker 2: cases that we're working on, whether in the past or

1394
01:17:37,800 --> 01:17:42,679
Speaker 2: even actively. So they do very meaningful things. But it's

1395
01:17:42,680 --> 01:17:44,360
Speaker 2: one of those things that we've been talking about for

1396
01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:47,360
Speaker 2: a while internally that's it's hard for us all to

1397
01:17:47,479 --> 01:17:50,120
Speaker 2: understand it. So we're so grateful that you're breaking it

1398
01:17:50,200 --> 01:17:51,240
Speaker 2: down so clearly.

1399
01:17:51,680 --> 01:17:54,679
Speaker 6: Oh My pleasure and body had mentioned in the previous

1400
01:17:54,720 --> 01:17:58,800
Speaker 6: segment about UT's program that is the oldest it's been

1401
01:17:58,840 --> 01:18:03,040
Speaker 6: around now for a long long time. And the credit

1402
01:18:03,479 --> 01:18:08,680
Speaker 6: for that facility not only goes to doctor bab Right,

1403
01:18:08,720 --> 01:18:11,640
Speaker 6: but also the University of Tennessee that had had the

1404
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:15,720
Speaker 6: four knowledge, that had had the vision to do this.

1405
01:18:16,040 --> 01:18:19,080
Speaker 6: What's really interesting about that facility is it's not way

1406
01:18:19,080 --> 01:18:20,920
Speaker 6: out in the woods. I think a lot of people

1407
01:18:20,960 --> 01:18:25,880
Speaker 6: think that it is. It's actually in town and it's right. Yeah,

1408
01:18:25,960 --> 01:18:29,360
Speaker 6: it's right behind the medical Center. And if the wind

1409
01:18:29,439 --> 01:18:32,920
Speaker 6: is just right, the wind is just right, you know,

1410
01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:34,519
Speaker 6: you can pick up on things. As a matter of fact,

1411
01:18:34,520 --> 01:18:36,360
Speaker 6: when my son was thirteen years old, we took him

1412
01:18:36,360 --> 01:18:39,240
Speaker 6: at ut Golf Camp and it's literally across the road

1413
01:18:39,240 --> 01:18:41,840
Speaker 6: from it sits right on the river there. It runs

1414
01:18:41,840 --> 01:18:45,599
Speaker 6: through Knoxville. But yet Bill Bass is a giant in

1415
01:18:45,840 --> 01:18:49,559
Speaker 6: the forensic community. He's professor emeritus now and he he

1416
01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:52,800
Speaker 6: had He's got a history going back to his army

1417
01:18:52,920 --> 01:18:55,880
Speaker 6: days where he was working in the graves Registration section

1418
01:18:56,080 --> 01:18:57,839
Speaker 6: of the Army, and those are the people that actually

1419
01:18:57,920 --> 01:19:02,840
Speaker 6: handle combat desks, and he understood the utility for getting

1420
01:19:02,880 --> 01:19:06,760
Speaker 6: bodies identified and trying to understand and reclaiming remains. You

1421
01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:08,960
Speaker 6: have to think about coming back from World War Two,

1422
01:19:09,560 --> 01:19:12,559
Speaker 6: we had thousands of bodies that were in various states

1423
01:19:12,560 --> 01:19:15,400
Speaker 6: of decay. And this is in my opinion at least,

1424
01:19:15,400 --> 01:19:18,200
Speaker 6: this is what starts this little kernel, you know, kind

1425
01:19:18,200 --> 01:19:20,599
Speaker 6: of rolling in his mind and there are these giants

1426
01:19:20,640 --> 01:19:23,439
Speaker 6: that came after him and that you know, I don't

1427
01:19:23,439 --> 01:19:28,080
Speaker 6: want to overspiritualize this, but with UT it's kind of

1428
01:19:28,200 --> 01:19:32,280
Speaker 6: a holy site in the world of forensics because they've

1429
01:19:32,320 --> 01:19:37,080
Speaker 6: created these little forensic anthropology evangelists that have gone out

1430
01:19:37,200 --> 01:19:39,920
Speaker 6: now over all of these years and have set up

1431
01:19:39,920 --> 01:19:43,320
Speaker 6: programs at other schools, and not just in the US,

1432
01:19:43,720 --> 01:19:46,680
Speaker 6: there are schools that are now around the world. Australia's

1433
01:19:46,680 --> 01:19:49,479
Speaker 6: got a great program down there as well. So there's

1434
01:19:49,520 --> 01:19:52,240
Speaker 6: a need for this. And one of the reasons that

1435
01:19:52,280 --> 01:19:55,719
Speaker 6: there is a need is that we cover so many

1436
01:19:55,800 --> 01:20:00,400
Speaker 6: cases in true crime. People are working these cases is

1437
01:20:00,479 --> 01:20:04,479
Speaker 6: actively out there where people take bodies and they create

1438
01:20:04,520 --> 01:20:08,080
Speaker 6: what are called clandestine graves, and that means that they're

1439
01:20:08,120 --> 01:20:10,920
Speaker 6: buried off of the grid, somewhere they're out of sight

1440
01:20:11,360 --> 01:20:14,599
Speaker 6: and something is going on the entire time that that

1441
01:20:14,640 --> 01:20:17,439
Speaker 6: body is in the ground. You just think about a

1442
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:20,840
Speaker 6: principle called turbation, where the earth you don't see it moving,

1443
01:20:20,920 --> 01:20:24,880
Speaker 6: but it's actually moving surface like this, and the bodies,

1444
01:20:25,080 --> 01:20:29,800
Speaker 6: particularly uncasketed bodies, are subject to all of the forces

1445
01:20:29,840 --> 01:20:32,519
Speaker 6: that are subterranean, and not to mention all of the

1446
01:20:32,680 --> 01:20:39,200
Speaker 6: animal activity that yeah, yeah, and just it's amazing because

1447
01:20:39,200 --> 01:20:41,400
Speaker 6: you get off into these areas that you don't normally

1448
01:20:41,439 --> 01:20:43,720
Speaker 6: think of. Physics is a big part of this. You

1449
01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:47,280
Speaker 6: think about hydrology, the force of water that moves through

1450
01:20:47,280 --> 01:20:51,599
Speaker 6: an area that can change the landscape, and many times

1451
01:20:51,600 --> 01:20:55,599
Speaker 6: it changes landscapes so much that it will wash away

1452
01:20:56,000 --> 01:20:59,360
Speaker 6: entire hillsides and you've got like a kind of a

1453
01:20:59,400 --> 01:21:02,120
Speaker 6: bank that's left behind. And there are any number of

1454
01:21:02,160 --> 01:21:04,200
Speaker 6: stories where people walk up to a bank and there's

1455
01:21:04,200 --> 01:21:07,160
Speaker 6: a human femur hanging out of the bank that years

1456
01:21:07,160 --> 01:21:10,360
Speaker 6: and years ago it has.

1457
01:21:10,200 --> 01:21:16,360
Speaker 2: Because meaning the burial ground had been moved because of

1458
01:21:16,400 --> 01:21:18,599
Speaker 2: some sort of weather events.

1459
01:21:18,240 --> 01:21:22,680
Speaker 6: And you have no idea. And here's the problem that

1460
01:21:22,680 --> 01:21:27,800
Speaker 6: that doctor Bass identified. High Time's always been a problem

1461
01:21:27,840 --> 01:21:32,160
Speaker 6: in you can't change it, right, it can't, And and

1462
01:21:32,320 --> 01:21:37,040
Speaker 6: it's always the elements that come along with time always

1463
01:21:37,040 --> 01:21:39,639
Speaker 6: are going to impact bodies that are left because now

1464
01:21:39,720 --> 01:21:44,240
Speaker 6: bodies are subject in the carbon based form, are all

1465
01:21:44,280 --> 01:21:46,960
Speaker 6: subject to all of the natural changes that are taking place,

1466
01:21:47,400 --> 01:21:50,439
Speaker 6: either at a subterranean level or even on surface what

1467
01:21:50,479 --> 01:21:54,720
Speaker 6: are called surface burials or surface depositions of bodies, where

1468
01:21:54,760 --> 01:21:56,880
Speaker 6: people will just take remains and leave them out in

1469
01:21:56,920 --> 01:21:59,320
Speaker 6: the woods. We talked about this with Travis Decker in

1470
01:21:59,360 --> 01:22:02,200
Speaker 6: the previous and this is a great This is a

1471
01:22:02,240 --> 01:22:06,080
Speaker 6: great segue for that, because you have to try to

1472
01:22:06,280 --> 01:22:11,960
Speaker 6: think about what are potential suspects going to do with remains.

1473
01:22:12,439 --> 01:22:15,040
Speaker 6: You guys mentioned something just a second ago that was

1474
01:22:15,240 --> 01:22:19,000
Speaker 6: always fascinated to me is that they will actually take

1475
01:22:19,160 --> 01:22:23,320
Speaker 6: a car, open the trunk and they will leave bodies

1476
01:22:23,400 --> 01:22:26,479
Speaker 6: inside of that trunk at the body farm, and they

1477
01:22:26,520 --> 01:22:30,479
Speaker 6: will allow them, through the normal course of time to

1478
01:22:30,680 --> 01:22:34,120
Speaker 6: degrade in that environment. And can you imagine you're a

1479
01:22:34,200 --> 01:22:40,280
Speaker 6: graduate student and your job is to walk out periodically

1480
01:22:40,479 --> 01:22:43,759
Speaker 6: many times every single day. You're taking bug samples because

1481
01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:45,559
Speaker 6: you want to see the cycle of all of the

1482
01:22:45,560 --> 01:22:47,760
Speaker 6: insects that are in there. You're trying to see if

1483
01:22:47,800 --> 01:22:50,400
Speaker 6: there's any kind of animal activity around there, what type

1484
01:22:50,400 --> 01:22:53,880
Speaker 6: of animal species, what types of plants are growing in

1485
01:22:53,880 --> 01:22:56,080
Speaker 6: this area? You want to try to and you have

1486
01:22:56,120 --> 01:23:00,439
Speaker 6: to also factor in meteorological conditions. You have to think

1487
01:23:00,439 --> 01:23:04,960
Speaker 6: about barometric pressure, relative humidity, heat. Have we had protracted

1488
01:23:05,000 --> 01:23:08,519
Speaker 6: periods of drought? Are we seeing rainstorms that are blowing through?

1489
01:23:08,560 --> 01:23:11,280
Speaker 6: What happens if a monsoon comes through? All of these

1490
01:23:11,280 --> 01:23:14,679
Speaker 6: things that impact. There are even cases where they'll take

1491
01:23:14,720 --> 01:23:20,040
Speaker 6: bodies and encase them in concrete and put the concrete

1492
01:23:20,040 --> 01:23:23,559
Speaker 6: out there and try to understand, well, you have this

1493
01:23:24,320 --> 01:23:28,280
Speaker 6: you know, carbon based element that's contained in a block

1494
01:23:28,360 --> 01:23:34,000
Speaker 6: of concrete. What what are what's going? What impact does

1495
01:23:34,320 --> 01:23:38,240
Speaker 6: the concrete have on the body. Also does the concrete

1496
01:23:38,439 --> 01:23:41,280
Speaker 6: protect the body? Does it skew your data because now

1497
01:23:41,280 --> 01:23:43,160
Speaker 6: it's not in the earth, now it's in a solid

1498
01:23:43,200 --> 01:23:47,479
Speaker 6: block of concrete or cement or you know, how how

1499
01:23:47,520 --> 01:23:50,160
Speaker 6: do you want to frame it? So you've got all

1500
01:23:50,160 --> 01:23:52,880
Speaker 6: of these different environments, and that's one of the things

1501
01:23:52,880 --> 01:23:53,839
Speaker 6: that they study.

1502
01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:56,360
Speaker 4: So the work that they're doing at these body farms

1503
01:23:56,640 --> 01:24:00,519
Speaker 4: could be utilized, like the data that they find could

1504
01:24:00,560 --> 01:24:03,439
Speaker 4: be being used literally right this second in la Oh,

1505
01:24:03,479 --> 01:24:07,559
Speaker 4: it's to help solve reeve us no doubt it is right.

1506
01:24:07,479 --> 01:24:11,519
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, absolutely that that certainly takes place because again

1507
01:24:11,960 --> 01:24:14,920
Speaker 6: and I didn't think about this when you said it, Wow, yeah,

1508
01:24:14,960 --> 01:24:19,200
Speaker 6: her body was found in this Tesla. Okay, so if

1509
01:24:19,360 --> 01:24:21,880
Speaker 6: if you can take that data and record it. Here's

1510
01:24:21,920 --> 01:24:29,519
Speaker 6: the thing. Geography is limiting relative to data that comes

1511
01:24:29,560 --> 01:24:32,840
Speaker 6: into any kind of art that you glean from any

1512
01:24:32,920 --> 01:24:36,160
Speaker 6: kind of body farm, right, Okay, so you have to

1513
01:24:36,200 --> 01:24:39,479
Speaker 6: factor in l like Okay, So the body farm UT

1514
01:24:40,280 --> 01:24:43,439
Speaker 6: Knoxville is right on the cusp of the Great Smoky Mountains.

1515
01:24:43,439 --> 01:24:45,479
Speaker 6: For people who have ever been to Dollywood or Pigeon

1516
01:24:45,479 --> 01:24:47,759
Speaker 6: Forge or Gatlinburg or any of that area up there,

1517
01:24:48,400 --> 01:24:51,800
Speaker 6: they're only they're you know, just miles away from that area.

1518
01:24:51,920 --> 01:24:56,960
Speaker 6: Well that that environment is very very distinctive. Okay, sure,

1519
01:24:57,120 --> 01:25:00,519
Speaker 6: but if you go from UT and you down to

1520
01:25:00,560 --> 01:25:04,720
Speaker 6: the Maple Center, which is located in Gainesville, Florida, at

1521
01:25:04,720 --> 01:25:08,559
Speaker 6: the University of Florida, but you're you've entered into an

1522
01:25:08,840 --> 01:25:11,480
Speaker 6: entirely different environment down there, right, Okay.

1523
01:25:11,360 --> 01:25:12,200
Speaker 4: We're the one in Michigan.

1524
01:25:12,960 --> 01:25:15,799
Speaker 6: Totally different. Yeah, yeah, it's completely different.

1525
01:25:16,120 --> 01:25:20,479
Speaker 4: Now I should mention for everybody, the farthest west that

1526
01:25:20,560 --> 01:25:23,640
Speaker 4: you can get for a body farm is Colorado. They

1527
01:25:23,680 --> 01:25:26,320
Speaker 4: don't have one in in like in the environment that

1528
01:25:26,320 --> 01:25:30,240
Speaker 4: that I live in, and you know, like California, Nevada, Arizona,

1529
01:25:30,520 --> 01:25:34,240
Speaker 4: in the Southwest. I know, listen, and these are all universities, right, Joseph.

1530
01:25:34,320 --> 01:25:38,320
Speaker 4: These are all usually studies. There are students, these are

1531
01:25:38,439 --> 01:25:41,919
Speaker 4: these are students that are you know, logging all these details.

1532
01:25:41,960 --> 01:25:44,320
Speaker 4: We really need the universities on the west coast to

1533
01:25:44,320 --> 01:25:47,320
Speaker 4: get it together and get a body farm regions.

1534
01:25:47,439 --> 01:25:51,439
Speaker 6: Yeah, and they're really fantastic universities all over the place

1535
01:25:51,520 --> 01:25:55,360
Speaker 6: that that are doing great research in forensic anthropology. And

1536
01:25:55,400 --> 01:25:57,920
Speaker 6: it's it's certainly a need and it's something that's practical,

1537
01:25:58,240 --> 01:26:00,479
Speaker 6: you know, it's not some kind of a theory thing

1538
01:26:00,960 --> 01:26:05,080
Speaker 6: because there is actually form and function here. There's applications

1539
01:26:05,120 --> 01:26:06,679
Speaker 6: out in the field. And I love what you said

1540
01:26:06,720 --> 01:26:12,599
Speaker 6: earlier about could they take a case potentially and duplicated Well, yeah,

1541
01:26:12,800 --> 01:26:16,240
Speaker 6: I suppose you could the scenario. But the one thing

1542
01:26:16,280 --> 01:26:18,760
Speaker 6: if you're doing this in let's just say you're doing

1543
01:26:18,800 --> 01:26:21,439
Speaker 6: this at the body form in Knoxvile and you're taking

1544
01:26:21,439 --> 01:26:24,400
Speaker 6: a case from I don't know Reno, all right, You're

1545
01:26:24,439 --> 01:26:26,519
Speaker 6: not going to be able to duplicate Reno in Knoxyle.

1546
01:26:26,960 --> 01:26:28,760
Speaker 6: You're just not going to be able to do it.

1547
01:26:29,400 --> 01:26:32,439
Speaker 6: So now you have the same case that approximates that

1548
01:26:32,520 --> 01:26:35,479
Speaker 6: geographic region that has the same flora, the same fauna,

1549
01:26:35,640 --> 01:26:41,080
Speaker 6: the same meteorological you know, impacts that you have in

1550
01:26:41,120 --> 01:26:45,719
Speaker 6: that environment. Yeah, you could. You might could approximate that data,

1551
01:26:45,760 --> 01:26:47,599
Speaker 6: and that's one of the things that they're trying to do.

1552
01:26:48,439 --> 01:26:51,519
Speaker 6: But you know, you got to start somewhere, okay. And

1553
01:26:52,200 --> 01:26:54,519
Speaker 6: there are many people that are over the years that

1554
01:26:54,600 --> 01:26:57,920
Speaker 6: have found this just absolutely they're averse to it. As

1555
01:26:57,960 --> 01:26:59,320
Speaker 6: a matter of fact. You know, I have friends that

1556
01:26:59,360 --> 01:27:03,000
Speaker 6: studied up there and did research and that at the

1557
01:27:03,000 --> 01:27:05,639
Speaker 6: body farm. I've got one of my really good friends

1558
01:27:05,680 --> 01:27:08,960
Speaker 6: that finished his PhD up there and and in fiscal

1559
01:27:09,000 --> 01:27:12,400
Speaker 6: anthropology was focus in forensics, and you know, he taught.

1560
01:27:12,640 --> 01:27:15,080
Speaker 6: He talked to me about the rigor of going through this,

1561
01:27:15,160 --> 01:27:17,439
Speaker 6: and he said, one of the interesting things that happens

1562
01:27:17,479 --> 01:27:20,479
Speaker 6: is that periodically you'll have people that will show up

1563
01:27:20,800 --> 01:27:24,040
Speaker 6: at the body farm and they'll have signs protesting because

1564
01:27:24,520 --> 01:27:28,160
Speaker 6: they're offended by it. So, you know, at my university

1565
01:27:28,520 --> 01:27:30,600
Speaker 6: at jack State, I've had people that have come up

1566
01:27:30,640 --> 01:27:32,880
Speaker 6: to me, and I'm not a fends of anthropology to say,

1567
01:27:32,880 --> 01:27:35,559
Speaker 6: are we going to get a body farm here? It's like, no, no,

1568
01:27:35,600 --> 01:27:37,920
Speaker 6: we're not doing that. Now. I do have a gross

1569
01:27:38,000 --> 01:27:40,599
Speaker 6: lab for the first time this year. So in my

1570
01:27:40,760 --> 01:27:43,519
Speaker 6: in my lab at jack State, I actually have an

1571
01:27:43,520 --> 01:27:48,720
Speaker 6: anatomy lab where we started doing dissections and I've got

1572
01:27:48,800 --> 01:27:52,560
Speaker 6: undergraduate students that are participating in this and so's.

1573
01:27:52,160 --> 01:27:56,760
Speaker 2: Two of which passed out. Three of them passed out

1574
01:27:56,800 --> 01:28:00,799
Speaker 2: on Friday when he was Yeah, yeah, though, I Joseph

1575
01:28:00,840 --> 01:28:02,640
Speaker 2: and I were talking on Friday and he was like

1576
01:28:02,720 --> 01:28:05,640
Speaker 2: doing his like lecture and they were cutting for the

1577
01:28:05,640 --> 01:28:08,920
Speaker 2: first time and three students passed as I would have

1578
01:28:08,920 --> 01:28:09,920
Speaker 2: been for sure one.

1579
01:28:09,720 --> 01:28:11,600
Speaker 5: Of that you.

1580
01:28:13,880 --> 01:28:14,920
Speaker 4: And I I.

1581
01:28:14,920 --> 01:28:17,599
Speaker 6: Got, I actually got I got kind of woozy Tom

1582
01:28:17,640 --> 01:28:20,880
Speaker 6: and that was that was probably seven thousand bodies ago,

1583
01:28:21,080 --> 01:28:25,000
Speaker 6: so literally probably normal. Yeah, it is a normal reaction.

1584
01:28:25,240 --> 01:28:27,559
Speaker 4: What do you do when your whole class is passing out?

1585
01:28:28,520 --> 01:28:30,479
Speaker 6: But you know when when you're doing and it's at

1586
01:28:30,520 --> 01:28:35,679
Speaker 6: another level when you're talking about human decay, because it's

1587
01:28:35,840 --> 01:28:38,640
Speaker 6: not just an idea of doing a pro section on

1588
01:28:38,720 --> 01:28:42,880
Speaker 6: a body, it's it's a matter of doing, uh, doing

1589
01:28:42,920 --> 01:28:47,760
Speaker 6: it under horrible circumstances where you're outdoors and you're witnessing

1590
01:28:48,240 --> 01:28:53,920
Speaker 6: the true, the true impact of nature on human remains.

1591
01:28:54,080 --> 01:28:57,320
Speaker 6: And you have to be specifically focused in this field

1592
01:28:57,640 --> 01:29:01,960
Speaker 6: because there's so many little tiny detail that can be missed.

1593
01:29:02,320 --> 01:29:05,839
Speaker 6: So I would equate anybody that works in this field

1594
01:29:06,400 --> 01:29:09,880
Speaker 6: that probably would have the same mindset I think as

1595
01:29:09,920 --> 01:29:13,799
Speaker 6: somebody that would do that would be a watchmaker, because

1596
01:29:13,840 --> 01:29:16,800
Speaker 6: you know, you have to pay such close attention to every.

1597
01:29:16,560 --> 01:29:18,719
Speaker 4: Little what a good Yeah, it's so true.

1598
01:29:19,160 --> 01:29:22,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, and you have to really dig science, man, you

1599
01:29:22,400 --> 01:29:25,519
Speaker 6: have to be completely I could get committed into this.

1600
01:29:25,520 --> 01:29:26,120
Speaker 4: It'd be great.

1601
01:29:26,479 --> 01:29:29,360
Speaker 2: We exhumed a body that we were Joseph and I

1602
01:29:29,439 --> 01:29:32,479
Speaker 2: were both working on a case where we exhumed a

1603
01:29:32,520 --> 01:29:36,759
Speaker 2: body after many many years of burial, and it's first

1604
01:29:36,840 --> 01:29:40,320
Speaker 2: glance and second glance, and Joseph's glands said a lot.

1605
01:29:40,840 --> 01:29:42,719
Speaker 4: My takeaway as a layman was.

1606
01:29:43,520 --> 01:29:47,960
Speaker 2: How extraordinary that a body can be buried in a

1607
01:29:48,040 --> 01:29:54,160
Speaker 2: casket and then exhumed many years later, removed from said casket,

1608
01:29:54,439 --> 01:29:58,559
Speaker 2: and then examined properly and real details are to happen

1609
01:29:58,680 --> 01:30:01,760
Speaker 2: from that. Joseph, if I don't know what other high

1610
01:30:01,800 --> 01:30:05,599
Speaker 2: note to end it on other than exhumation, I guess

1611
01:30:05,600 --> 01:30:08,719
Speaker 2: we'll have to hit the crime lab also next week.

1612
01:30:08,880 --> 01:30:13,120
Speaker 2: And honestly, Joseph, having you here if you again, if

1613
01:30:13,120 --> 01:30:15,640
Speaker 2: you haven't listened to his podcast Body Bags, Please do.

1614
01:30:16,320 --> 01:30:19,439
Speaker 2: I sar a radio app you can download it for free.

1615
01:30:19,520 --> 01:30:22,000
Speaker 2: Also leave us a talk back on that same app

1616
01:30:22,040 --> 01:30:25,040
Speaker 2: while you're at it, and again tomorrow. We have a

1617
01:30:25,080 --> 01:30:28,000
Speaker 2: full week of hot headlines that are hitting the news

1618
01:30:28,720 --> 01:30:33,439
Speaker 2: real time. Lots of trials happening this week, so we

1619
01:30:33,479 --> 01:30:35,120
Speaker 2: will be following them closely.

1620
01:30:35,680 --> 01:30:37,920
Speaker 4: And Body I know you look like you have one

1621
01:30:38,000 --> 01:30:40,840
Speaker 4: last thing to say. No, I just was going to say, listen,

1622
01:30:40,880 --> 01:30:44,120
Speaker 4: we have our true crime and chill and right, you're

1623
01:30:44,320 --> 01:30:47,200
Speaker 4: choosing that you're choosing to doc this right and listen

1624
01:30:47,240 --> 01:30:50,480
Speaker 4: to your adolescence. And I know it's not a documentary,

1625
01:30:50,680 --> 01:30:53,680
Speaker 4: I know, but listen, there's We've been talking a lot

1626
01:30:53,680 --> 01:30:55,840
Speaker 4: about in Cells lately and whatnot, and I think this

1627
01:30:55,840 --> 01:30:59,640
Speaker 4: would be a really important and illuminating show for us

1628
01:30:59,680 --> 01:31:02,320
Speaker 4: all to time, watching them packed together. Yeah, I think.

1629
01:31:04,640 --> 01:31:06,840
Speaker 5: I have to say I've already seen it, but.

1630
01:31:06,800 --> 01:31:08,600
Speaker 4: I haven't, but I've heard it's phenomenal.

1631
01:31:08,840 --> 01:31:12,439
Speaker 2: Oh, you must watch going to And we talk about

1632
01:31:12,439 --> 01:31:15,519
Speaker 2: it a lot in the In Cells podcast just premiered

1633
01:31:15,640 --> 01:31:18,200
Speaker 2: as well, and we hope you'll also download that on

1634
01:31:18,240 --> 01:31:19,479
Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app.

1635
01:31:19,520 --> 01:31:21,760
Speaker 4: But it is a real deep Dive.

1636
01:31:21,880 --> 01:31:24,320
Speaker 5: It's a good one and just a reminder its adolescence

1637
01:31:24,400 --> 01:31:28,800
Speaker 5: on Netflix. So everyone tune and watch that one, and

1638
01:31:28,800 --> 01:31:30,479
Speaker 5: we're going to talk about it, but not this Wednesday.

1639
01:31:30,520 --> 01:31:31,840
Speaker 5: We're going to give it. We're going to do it

1640
01:31:31,840 --> 01:31:32,280
Speaker 5: this Wednesday.

1641
01:31:32,520 --> 01:31:34,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's take a week off, Let's take a week off. Yeah,

1642
01:31:34,960 --> 01:31:36,879
Speaker 4: I think, take a week off and do it next.

1643
01:31:36,760 --> 01:31:38,599
Speaker 6: But we are going to have crime Lab again.

1644
01:31:38,920 --> 01:31:42,240
Speaker 4: Yes we are, Yes, we are with crime Lab. Is

1645
01:31:42,800 --> 01:31:48,519
Speaker 4: every every Sunday this time next week, Joseph, sure, aggress

1646
01:31:48,560 --> 01:31:52,200
Speaker 4: assured and listen, we get to like, is it a

1647
01:31:52,280 --> 01:31:54,160
Speaker 4: start of the week or the end of the week.

1648
01:31:54,240 --> 01:31:54,640
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1649
01:31:54,720 --> 01:31:57,519
Speaker 2: Sundays are a little bit of an end of a

1650
01:31:57,560 --> 01:32:00,400
Speaker 2: week for me and my heart and head. So I'm

1651
01:32:00,479 --> 01:32:02,519
Speaker 2: so excited to get to be here with you guys

1652
01:32:02,520 --> 01:32:05,599
Speaker 2: at the end of the weekend. And you know, rather

1653
01:32:05,720 --> 01:32:08,840
Speaker 2: than having those oh my goodness, the gloomy mondays, I

1654
01:32:08,880 --> 01:32:13,080
Speaker 2: get ahead with you guys. So thank you everybody for listening. Please,

1655
01:32:13,280 --> 01:32:15,320
Speaker 2: we will be back tomorrow, head.

1656
01:32:15,200 --> 01:32:16,519
Speaker 4: On on Monday.

1657
01:32:17,200 --> 01:32:19,840
Speaker 2: Lots to discuss in the headlines, which will of course

1658
01:32:19,880 --> 01:32:22,439
Speaker 2: be getting to Joseph. Thank you for being with us tonight.

1659
01:32:22,680 --> 01:32:25,880
Speaker 2: Boddy I'm crazy for you and Courtney. We will see

1660
01:32:25,920 --> 01:32:29,120
Speaker 2: you tomorrow. If you're listening, this is true crime tonight.

1661
01:32:29,320 --> 01:32:32,640
Speaker 2: Please be safe, everybody. We will be here tomorrow.

1662
01:32:32,680 --> 01:32:33,800
Speaker 4: Good Night, Matt