WEBVTT - The Illusion of Control, Part 2

0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.800
<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:15.160
<v Speaker 2>Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:15.800
<v Speaker 2>is Robert.

0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:18.840
<v Speaker 3>Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and today we are

0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:22.840
<v Speaker 3>back to continue our series on the psychology concept known

0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:28.360
<v Speaker 3>as the illusion of control. This is a cognitive illusion

0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:31.400
<v Speaker 3>or a common error in thinking and judgment, in which

0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:36.280
<v Speaker 3>we overestimate the amount of control we have over outcomes

0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:39.720
<v Speaker 3>in the world, even outcomes that are in no way

0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:44.479
<v Speaker 3>determined by our actions. So if you haven't heard part one,

0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:46.440
<v Speaker 3>you should probably go back and listen to that first.

0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:49.600
<v Speaker 3>But for a brief recap. We talked about some examples

0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:53.199
<v Speaker 3>last time of the illusion of control. One would be

0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:56.640
<v Speaker 3>the belief that you can control your chances of winning

0:00:56.680 --> 0:01:00.320
<v Speaker 3>at a slot machine based on who presses the the

0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:02.960
<v Speaker 3>button and how when actually you know it's a purely

0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:06.360
<v Speaker 3>random process. There's no like. You know, you can't be

0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:09.640
<v Speaker 3>like better at working a slot machine. But other examples

0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:12.560
<v Speaker 3>would include like the belief that you can improve your

0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:15.640
<v Speaker 3>chances of hitting a desired number on a dice throw

0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:18.039
<v Speaker 3>by concentrating before the throw.

0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:21.840
<v Speaker 2>I do this, yeah, yeah, and yeah, I was going

0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:23.160
<v Speaker 2>to save this for a listener mail, but I go

0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:25.759
<v Speaker 2>ahead and mention it. Now heard from a listener on

0:01:25.920 --> 0:01:30.720
<v Speaker 2>Discord who pointed out this is I believe it's pass cish.

0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:34.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that correctly, use your name,

0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:36.720
<v Speaker 2>but anyway, may point it out that in Dungeons and

0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:40.600
<v Speaker 2>Dragons there's an additional element here that we didn't touch on,

0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:43.960
<v Speaker 2>and that's the drama of rolling your dice, of rolling

0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:46.880
<v Speaker 2>that D twenty, doing that saving throw. You may put

0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:49.600
<v Speaker 2>some concentration into it, not because not as much because

0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:52.960
<v Speaker 2>you're hoping to influence the roll, but because this matters,

0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:56.920
<v Speaker 2>This is an important role. Perhaps the life or death

0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:00.200
<v Speaker 2>of your character may hinge on the outcome. You can

0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:01.160
<v Speaker 2>play it up a little bit.

0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:04.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's a socially performative drum roll.

0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:07.320
<v Speaker 2>But I think undeniably there's off also that sense of like,

0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:09.560
<v Speaker 2>all right, NAT twenty, let's do it.

0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:10.640
<v Speaker 3>I can do this.

0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:12.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:15.560
<v Speaker 3>Other examples would be like the belief that you can

0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:18.760
<v Speaker 3>influence the outcome of a sporting event hundreds of miles

0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:22.080
<v Speaker 3>away by wearing a lucky charm. We talked about the

0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:25.919
<v Speaker 3>childhood belief that you can control gameplay on a video

0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:28.920
<v Speaker 3>game with like a controller, that's not plugged in, or

0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:32.040
<v Speaker 3>by moving the joystick on a on an arcade cabinet,

0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:33.440
<v Speaker 3>you haven't put any quarters in.

0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:34.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:37.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And we also ended up talking about an influential

0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:41.120
<v Speaker 3>early paper on the illusion of control from nineteen seventy

0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:44.280
<v Speaker 3>five called the Illusion of Control in the Journal of

0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:49.160
<v Speaker 3>Personality and Social Psychology by the American psychologist Ellen J. Langer.

0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:52.760
<v Speaker 3>And for a quick summary of this paper, it used

0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:58.800
<v Speaker 3>experiments involving games of chance with superficial elements inserted from

0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:03.000
<v Speaker 3>games of skill to see if people would behave consistent

0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:06.320
<v Speaker 3>with a belief that they had impossible levels of control

0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:10.640
<v Speaker 3>over chance outcomes. And this study found that yes, in

0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:13.520
<v Speaker 3>its experiments, people did behave in a way that was

0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:19.800
<v Speaker 3>consistent with overestimating their level of control over chance determined outcomes. However,

0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:23.119
<v Speaker 3>the thing about this paper was the experiments did use

0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:28.720
<v Speaker 3>indirect methods of studying the phenomenon, so these results came

0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:31.760
<v Speaker 3>with some limitations that I'll describe in just a minute.

0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:34.600
<v Speaker 3>I wanted to learn some more about the history of

0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:37.520
<v Speaker 3>how the illusion of control has been studied, because there

0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:40.680
<v Speaker 3>have been tons of papers on this, tons of experiments,

0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:43.600
<v Speaker 3>and I wanted to kind of general overview, so I

0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:47.400
<v Speaker 3>turned to a very helpful book chapter by a psychologist

0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:52.080
<v Speaker 3>named Suzanne C. Thompson. The chapter is called Illusions of

0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:56.680
<v Speaker 3>Control and it appears in a book called Cognitive Illusions

0:03:56.840 --> 0:04:01.400
<v Speaker 3>edited by Rudiger F. Pohl published by Psychology Press twenty sixteen,

0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:04.120
<v Speaker 3>though the version I read seems to have been an

0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:08.680
<v Speaker 3>updated edition because it included references to more recent studies,

0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:11.440
<v Speaker 3>such as one paper from twenty twenty one. So in

0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:15.680
<v Speaker 3>this overview, Thompson uses a broader definition of the illusion

0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:19.800
<v Speaker 3>of control than Langer did. Langer's definition was specifically about

0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:27.000
<v Speaker 3>seeking desired outcomes in chance determined events. Thompson says, instead, quote,

0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:32.640
<v Speaker 3>illusions of control occur when individuals overestimate their personal influence

0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:36.920
<v Speaker 3>influence over an outcome. So that's a more general way

0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:38.960
<v Speaker 3>of stating it. You know, maybe your influence could be

0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:41.400
<v Speaker 3>good or bad. It could be in getting something you

0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:42.840
<v Speaker 3>want or in something you don't want.

0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:46.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so this broader definition could apply to like various

0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:48.360
<v Speaker 2>games that have some sort of random element that you

0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:51.040
<v Speaker 2>truly can't control. For you may be really great at

0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:53.600
<v Speaker 2>the game, but you have this added level of illusion

0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:55.599
<v Speaker 2>of control that thinks that you can you can definitely

0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:58.480
<v Speaker 2>navigate any random occurrence. And I guess you could also

0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:02.760
<v Speaker 2>apply it even to interperson relationships, you know, thinking that

0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:05.360
<v Speaker 2>you have more control over other people in your circle

0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:06.000
<v Speaker 2>than you do.

0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:09.040
<v Speaker 3>Right, because this idea would also apply to things where

0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:11.960
<v Speaker 3>you do have some control, but you're imagining you have

0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:16.320
<v Speaker 3>more control than you actually do. And Thompson says that

0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:19.200
<v Speaker 3>since the origins of this research in the nineteen seventies,

0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:23.920
<v Speaker 3>there have been basically three different ways of experimentally demonstrating

0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:28.680
<v Speaker 3>that people experience illusory control. There's like three branches of

0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:32.520
<v Speaker 3>experiments on this tree. So approach number one that she

0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:37.239
<v Speaker 3>outlines is the main example here is the original research

0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:40.760
<v Speaker 3>by Ellen Langer, which we already described in the last episode.

0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:46.440
<v Speaker 3>This general strategy involves gauging people's guesses about their likelihood

0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:50.680
<v Speaker 3>of success in chance games that have superficial elements of

0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:54.760
<v Speaker 3>skill games introduced. So to emphasize again, this approach does

0:05:54.839 --> 0:06:00.400
<v Speaker 3>not actually directly measure people's perceptions of control. Instead, these

0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:03.400
<v Speaker 3>experiments would kind of infer it from their behavior in

0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:06.480
<v Speaker 3>a game. So you see that people bet more money,

0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:10.880
<v Speaker 3>that suggests they think they have more control over the outcome.

0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.640
<v Speaker 3>But it's possible there's another factor operating there, so there's

0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:19.000
<v Speaker 3>less certainty that you're testing for the variable you're actually

0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:23.680
<v Speaker 3>looking for. And Thompson explains some other ways of doing

0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:27.760
<v Speaker 3>these kind of tests apart from like Langer's original experimental design.

0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:31.599
<v Speaker 3>One thing she talks about is a type of study

0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:36.359
<v Speaker 3>that you could call like observer participant discrepancies. So an

0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:38.600
<v Speaker 3>example of this would be you get a test group,

0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:41.400
<v Speaker 3>you know, maybe a classroom of students or whatever, and

0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:44.160
<v Speaker 3>you split them up into pairs, and you give each

0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:48.919
<v Speaker 3>pair of subjects a random number generating apparatus, maybe a

0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:52.440
<v Speaker 3>die that's a simple one. So in each pair, there's

0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:55.640
<v Speaker 3>one person who gets to roll the die, and the

0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:59.400
<v Speaker 3>other person records all the numbers that they roll, and

0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:03.800
<v Speaker 3>participants do this like twenty times, and then across the

0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:07.240
<v Speaker 3>whole test group, whichever pair in the group has the

0:07:07.320 --> 0:07:11.680
<v Speaker 3>highest total sum of roles wins a cash prize, and

0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:16.640
<v Speaker 3>both subjects in each pair guess their likelihood of winning

0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:20.240
<v Speaker 3>before the game. Thompson says that if you try to

0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:23.480
<v Speaker 3>replicate this sort of experiment with students, you will usually

0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:26.880
<v Speaker 3>find that subjects, on average rate their chance of winning

0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:29.840
<v Speaker 3>a little bit higher if they're the one rolling the

0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:33.480
<v Speaker 3>die than if they're the one recording the roles. Again,

0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:36.280
<v Speaker 3>that should not make a difference. So even though we

0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:39.480
<v Speaker 3>both rationally know that the outcome is random, it just

0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:44.920
<v Speaker 3>feels a little luckier if I'm the one doing it. However,

0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:48.240
<v Speaker 3>and I thought this was interesting. Thompson says that some

0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:51.200
<v Speaker 3>research has found that this effect can be reduced or

0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:56.160
<v Speaker 3>even neutralized completely by the context of the game, for example,

0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:59.640
<v Speaker 3>if it takes place in a classroom that has previously

0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:04.200
<v Speaker 3>discs us the correct way to estimate probability on games

0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:09.000
<v Speaker 3>like this. And that was interesting to me because it

0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:13.320
<v Speaker 3>made me think about how people overcome cognitive biases and

0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:18.160
<v Speaker 3>cognitive illusions. You know, sometimes the unfortunate fact is that

0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:23.080
<v Speaker 3>simply being aware of a cognitive illusion, like knowing that

0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:26.720
<v Speaker 3>sometimes our brains have a certain kind of bias, is

0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:30.400
<v Speaker 3>not sufficient to keep us from falling for that bias.

0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.679
<v Speaker 3>So you can, like know about the tricks your brain plays,

0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:36.000
<v Speaker 3>and you can fall for them anyway. It happens to

0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:38.000
<v Speaker 3>all of us, but in every case.

0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:40.800
<v Speaker 2>And this obviously applies to many other aspects of the

0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:45.120
<v Speaker 2>human psyche as well. I mean awareness, self awareness is

0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:48.559
<v Speaker 2>often the first step, but that doesn't mean you've completely

0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:52.480
<v Speaker 2>defeated the illusion or illusion that you are having to

0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:54.080
<v Speaker 2>deal with exactly.

0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:56.880
<v Speaker 3>This is true for everybody, but in other cases, and

0:08:57.200 --> 0:08:59.880
<v Speaker 3>it varies from case to case. So in some cases,

0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:04.600
<v Speaker 3>research has shown that we can be successfully inoculated mentally

0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:08.160
<v Speaker 3>from certain irrational tendencies by being made aware of them,

0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:10.560
<v Speaker 3>and this seems to be one of those cases. You

0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:15.400
<v Speaker 3>can sometimes neutralize illusions of control just by like having

0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:18.959
<v Speaker 3>a context in which people have already been reminded about

0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:23.960
<v Speaker 3>how probabilities work. And I think that's interesting because you

0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:29.160
<v Speaker 3>might naturally assume that the variable in resistance to cognitive

0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:32.720
<v Speaker 3>illusions like the illusion of control is the person you know,

0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:37.080
<v Speaker 3>like permanent features of a person's personality, and you might

0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:39.959
<v Speaker 3>be inclined to think like, well, a more rational person

0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:43.040
<v Speaker 3>is better able to overcome their biases and think clearly.

0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:45.640
<v Speaker 3>But I don't know if that's always the case. I

0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:50.200
<v Speaker 3>wonder if it's really more about setting and context. Maybe

0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:55.240
<v Speaker 3>setting and context are equally, if not more, powerful predictors

0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:59.160
<v Speaker 3>of how well people overcome cognitive illusions. In other words,

0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:02.760
<v Speaker 3>does like currently being in the setting of a statistics

0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:07.800
<v Speaker 3>class inoculate you against the illusion of control better than

0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:11.160
<v Speaker 3>being a person who is generally aware of cognitive illusions.

0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:13.680
<v Speaker 3>I don't know the answer for sure there, but it

0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:18.079
<v Speaker 3>seems worth considering rather than just defaulting to the explanation

0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:24.120
<v Speaker 3>of permanent internal personality based differences. But anyway, so to

0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:27.439
<v Speaker 3>move on, That was approach number one. Experimental approach number

0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:32.360
<v Speaker 3>two is different. In this type of experiment, you give

0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:38.160
<v Speaker 3>subjects a laboratory task where researchers can program exactly how

0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:41.840
<v Speaker 3>much control the subject actually has, and in many of

0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:45.360
<v Speaker 3>these experiments the subject has zero control. Sometimes they have

0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:49.040
<v Speaker 3>more control, and then you ask the subject how much

0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:52.520
<v Speaker 3>control they think they had. So an experiment typical of

0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:55.000
<v Speaker 3>this type is one that was done by Alloy and

0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:59.840
<v Speaker 3>Abrahamson in nineteen seventy nine, in which subjects would be

0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:04.120
<v Speaker 3>given a button to press and they're told to see

0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:07.160
<v Speaker 3>if they can use that button to control whether or

0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:10.160
<v Speaker 3>not a light comes on, and then they're asked to

0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:13.520
<v Speaker 3>judge at the end what amount of control they think

0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:17.240
<v Speaker 3>the button had over the light. In reality, the light

0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:20.880
<v Speaker 3>had no relationship to whether the button was pressed or not.

0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:23.280
<v Speaker 3>It was simply programmed to come on at some fixed

0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:27.280
<v Speaker 3>percentage of the trials with each subject, and unsurprisingly even

0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:30.640
<v Speaker 3>though it had nothing to do with whether the button

0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:34.000
<v Speaker 3>was pushed or not, or when subjects broadly thought they

0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:37.480
<v Speaker 3>had some amount of control, and experiments when the light

0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:41.600
<v Speaker 3>came on more frequently but again unconnected to the button,

0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:45.080
<v Speaker 3>caused people to believe that they had more control over

0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:48.280
<v Speaker 3>the light. So, at least in some cases, it seems

0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:53.160
<v Speaker 3>like success at getting a desired outcome makes people more

0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:56.319
<v Speaker 3>likely to believe they have control over that outcome, whether

0:11:56.400 --> 0:12:00.720
<v Speaker 3>or not they do. And while at the risk of

0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:04.440
<v Speaker 3>over extrapolating from a very contained laboratory outcome, this does

0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:08.080
<v Speaker 3>sort of suggest to me connections to behaviors in the world,

0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:11.160
<v Speaker 3>Like you know, when somebody has very good fortune at

0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:16.840
<v Speaker 3>a particular juncture, they're like, yep, that was all me. Later,

0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:20.240
<v Speaker 3>Thompson describes another version of this kind of test. This

0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:23.320
<v Speaker 3>one is called the computer screen on set task. And

0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:25.160
<v Speaker 3>so in this test, like you sit in front of

0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:28.040
<v Speaker 3>a computer and you're looking at a screen, and the

0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:32.160
<v Speaker 3>screen will sequentially produce a series of forty images, and

0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:35.240
<v Speaker 3>all of these images are either a green X or

0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:38.120
<v Speaker 3>a red O. And with each new screen, you can

0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:40.760
<v Speaker 3>choose to press a button or not press a button,

0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:43.959
<v Speaker 3>and your goal is to make the green X appear

0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:46.839
<v Speaker 3>as many times as possible, so people will be trying

0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:49.360
<v Speaker 3>to figure out if there's some pattern like pressing the

0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:52.400
<v Speaker 3>button or not, you know, pressing it or not in

0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:56.800
<v Speaker 3>what sequence, etc. That'll make the greenexes appear. Actually, once again,

0:12:56.840 --> 0:12:59.800
<v Speaker 3>the button has no relation whatsoever to whether the symbols

0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:03.240
<v Speaker 3>here on the screen. The button doesn't do anything, and

0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:07.160
<v Speaker 3>you can vary what percentage of each symbol the subjects get.

0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:09.240
<v Speaker 3>At the end of the test, you have them rate

0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:11.360
<v Speaker 3>on a scale of zero to one hundred how much

0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.640
<v Speaker 3>control they think they had over what appeared on the screen.

0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:17.920
<v Speaker 3>People who got the green ex seventy five percent of

0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:21.000
<v Speaker 3>their random screens believed that they had a lot of

0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:22.439
<v Speaker 3>control over the display.

0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:25.160
<v Speaker 2>This is also interesting to think of in terms of

0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:27.920
<v Speaker 2>the example we discussed in the last episode about as

0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:31.040
<v Speaker 2>a child thinking you had control over a video game. Yeah,

0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:35.760
<v Speaker 2>maybe this doesn't play out. I'd be interesting to hear

0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:39.240
<v Speaker 2>from folks much younger than me. But looking back on

0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:41.920
<v Speaker 2>the video games that I was doing this on, like

0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:47.280
<v Speaker 2>these were the old school arcade games where it was

0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:50.480
<v Speaker 2>maybe a little more directly comparable to just pressing a

0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:53.040
<v Speaker 2>button and seeing a random o or an ax on

0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:55.000
<v Speaker 2>the screen, like there was a lot more room to

0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:57.880
<v Speaker 2>ask the question, Am I controlling it? I have fifty

0:13:57.920 --> 0:13:59.120
<v Speaker 2>percent chance I am.

0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:02.360
<v Speaker 3>In a way, I'm almost nostalgic for that mindset, Like

0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:06.320
<v Speaker 3>there's something kind of beautiful about the ambiguity of wondering

0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.160
<v Speaker 3>if you're controlling what's happening on the screen. I feel

0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:11.720
<v Speaker 3>like maybe I'm wrong about this. I feel like I

0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:14.120
<v Speaker 3>wouldn't fall for that now, but I kind of wish

0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:18.040
<v Speaker 3>I could, because it suggests a more I don't know,

0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:22.040
<v Speaker 3>just kind of like totally radically opened state of mind

0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:24.640
<v Speaker 3>in which anything is possible, a more magical way of

0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:25.680
<v Speaker 3>relating to the world.

0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:28.560
<v Speaker 2>It's a cheaper way to go about going to the arcade,

0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:30.640
<v Speaker 2>you know. I wonder what they would think if if

0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:32.760
<v Speaker 2>there was an adult who regularly came into the arcade

0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:34.800
<v Speaker 2>and they're like, oh man, he never spends anything. He

0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:37.000
<v Speaker 2>just stands at the machines and pretends to play.

0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:39.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, just toggling the joystick at the demo.

0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:44.480
<v Speaker 2>It's great, I gotta sell this guy's nacho do something Okay?

0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:48.440
<v Speaker 3>Anyway, that's approach number two. These very tightly controlled laboratory experiments.

0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:52.080
<v Speaker 3>Approach number three is different. Once again, you get people

0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:55.920
<v Speaker 3>to report their judgments of control in real life scenarios.

0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:59.360
<v Speaker 3>An example here is a study by McKenna in nineteen

0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:01.479
<v Speaker 3>ninety three. Not that McKenna different.

0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:03.280
<v Speaker 2>McCay, I think this is Frank P. McKenna.

0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:08.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Ask participants to rate the likelihood that, compared to

0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:13.920
<v Speaker 3>other drivers, they would experience an auto collision, and they

0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:17.280
<v Speaker 3>were asked to judge this when imagining themselves as the

0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:22.760
<v Speaker 3>driver versus imagining themselves as the passenger. Perhaps unsurprisingly, most

0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:26.720
<v Speaker 3>people thought that accidents would be relatively less likely if

0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:27.600
<v Speaker 3>they were the driver.

0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:31.360
<v Speaker 2>This absolutely matches up with my experience. You know, even

0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:33.160
<v Speaker 2>when I'm in the car with a driver that I

0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:36.400
<v Speaker 2>definitely trust and even know that they are a better

0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:40.240
<v Speaker 2>driver than me, you know, maybe they have more experience

0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:43.480
<v Speaker 2>or they've undergone training, they're still like that gut feeling

0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:46.680
<v Speaker 2>of like I am not actually in control. I can't

0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:49.120
<v Speaker 2>hit the brake when I see the brake lights ahead

0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:52.440
<v Speaker 2>getting closer, and therefore I feel like a little more

0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:56.240
<v Speaker 2>anxious about the whole scenario oftentimes, like realizing that this

0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.320
<v Speaker 2>is irrational, but feeling it Nonetheless.

0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:00.960
<v Speaker 3>I totally relate to that. I feel that too the

0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:03.600
<v Speaker 3>same thing. It's not like I actually think this other

0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:06.160
<v Speaker 3>person is a more dangerous driver than me. I just

0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:09.640
<v Speaker 3>it's just hard to get over that feeling. In a

0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:14.120
<v Speaker 3>second study, in this McKenna paper, participants were asked about

0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:17.920
<v Speaker 3>specific types of collisions, those that would seem to involve

0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:20.960
<v Speaker 3>either more or less driver control. So they were talking

0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:24.920
<v Speaker 3>about like rear ending someone versus being rear ended versus

0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:29.680
<v Speaker 3>having a tire blowout, And the idea was rear ending

0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:34.000
<v Speaker 3>someone is generally thought to be largely subject to driver control.

0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:36.560
<v Speaker 3>Of course, we know that there are factors that other

0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:39.920
<v Speaker 3>factors that can intervene, breaks, could fail whatever, whereas getting

0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:42.600
<v Speaker 3>rear ended seems to be out of the driver's hands,

0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:46.640
<v Speaker 3>and people were highly likely to say that they were

0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:50.400
<v Speaker 3>less likely to have the type of collision in which

0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:54.040
<v Speaker 3>the driver was in control has high control, So I

0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:57.440
<v Speaker 3>am much less likely than other people to rear end someone.

0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:00.800
<v Speaker 3>Whether it's me or someone else, makes less difference in

0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:01.920
<v Speaker 3>getting rear ended.

0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:03.600
<v Speaker 2>Quote.

0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:07.680
<v Speaker 3>Thus, people show illusory control over avoiding an accident by

0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:11.520
<v Speaker 3>assuming that they will be able to exert control that

0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:12.680
<v Speaker 3>others cannot.

0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:14.919
<v Speaker 2>And I guess this is what's in play when you

0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:19.719
<v Speaker 2>see drivers so many drivers just riding bumpers through terrifyingly

0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:22.320
<v Speaker 2>fast traffic all the time, like they just maybe they

0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:26.400
<v Speaker 2>have just heightened control over things. But I would tend

0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:26.879
<v Speaker 2>to doubt it.

0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:29.439
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that would be dangerous if someone else did it.

0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:31.080
<v Speaker 3>But I can handle it.

0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:34.359
<v Speaker 2>I alone can weave in and out of traffic and

0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:38.200
<v Speaker 2>make it to my destination two minutes ahead of schedule.

0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:41.159
<v Speaker 3>So this type of experiment is taken to show that

0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:44.600
<v Speaker 3>people have an illusion of control when they consider themselves

0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:48.359
<v Speaker 3>relative to other people. A driver has some degree of

0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:51.560
<v Speaker 3>control over whether they end up in a collision on average,

0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:54.280
<v Speaker 3>people think that they are better able to avoid that

0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:57.440
<v Speaker 3>outcome than other people are. And so looking back over

0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:00.320
<v Speaker 3>these three methodologies, Thompson says, you know each of them

0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.240
<v Speaker 3>have strengths and weaknesses. So approach number one kind of

0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:06.959
<v Speaker 3>the Langer approach. The pros are that it uses realistic

0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:10.600
<v Speaker 3>situations that people engage in every day, like lottery drawings

0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:14.720
<v Speaker 3>and games and stuff. And also it has the pro

0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:18.840
<v Speaker 3>that the indirect measure can help detect an illusory belief

0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:23.560
<v Speaker 3>in control that does in reality guide behavior, but which

0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:27.479
<v Speaker 3>people might resist admitting if they were asked directly, And

0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:30.439
<v Speaker 3>that does seem big to me. It helps avoid like

0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:35.639
<v Speaker 3>people tailoring their answers to avoid embarrassment. Cons on the

0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:39.760
<v Speaker 3>other hand, are it's indirect, so it doesn't test whether

0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:42.879
<v Speaker 3>control is really the deciding factor. You kind of have

0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:46.440
<v Speaker 3>to infer that and wonder if other factors could be

0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:50.639
<v Speaker 3>contributing as well. Approach number two the laboratory experiments like

0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:53.240
<v Speaker 3>Alloy and Abramson with like you know, the light coming on,

0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:56.280
<v Speaker 3>or the greenexes and red o's on the computer screen.

0:18:56.680 --> 0:19:00.399
<v Speaker 3>The pros of that are that the dependent variable is

0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:04.480
<v Speaker 3>definitely judgment of control, like it's a very tightly controlled experiment.

0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:07.840
<v Speaker 3>Cons would be that these tasks do not have what

0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:13.240
<v Speaker 3>psychologists call external validity, so they're like weird tasks with

0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:16.399
<v Speaker 3>no close analogy in our day to day lives, so

0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:19.160
<v Speaker 3>they might not be telling us how people would actually

0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:22.159
<v Speaker 3>behave in reality. They might just be like producing a

0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:25.119
<v Speaker 3>weird kind of behavior that's specific to the lab task.

0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:30.440
<v Speaker 3>Approach number three the self reporting of control judgments about

0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:35.240
<v Speaker 3>everyday activities like driving Ala McKenna. Pros are this does

0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:40.440
<v Speaker 3>have external validity. Cons are it relies on reflective self reporting,

0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:43.119
<v Speaker 3>which can be subject to all kinds of biases. You

0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:44.960
<v Speaker 3>know when you're trying to when you ask people to

0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:49.520
<v Speaker 3>self report on their own judgments about their lives. However,

0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:52.600
<v Speaker 3>Thompson says that a strength of illusion of control research

0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:56.160
<v Speaker 3>is that even though these methodologies all have their strengths

0:19:56.160 --> 0:20:00.720
<v Speaker 3>and weaknesses, they mostly point to a similar conclusion, which

0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:03.240
<v Speaker 3>is the fact that on average, people believe we have

0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:07.880
<v Speaker 3>more control over outcomes than we actually do. And there

0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:11.080
<v Speaker 3>do seem to be some doubts about in exactly what

0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:15.320
<v Speaker 3>scenarios this applies and what causes it, but the core

0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:18.280
<v Speaker 3>finding seems fairly robust, though I'm going to talk about

0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:22.040
<v Speaker 3>one paper later in this episode that has some theoretical

0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:26.639
<v Speaker 3>criticisms of how this research and how these experimental findings

0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:39.640
<v Speaker 3>are framed. So it seems there probably is an illusion

0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.760
<v Speaker 3>of control, especially for outcomes that we have very little

0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:46.200
<v Speaker 3>control over. But it would be very surprising if people

0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:50.280
<v Speaker 3>showed an illusory belief in control over all variables in

0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:53.640
<v Speaker 3>all situations equally. So there has to be some more

0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:57.960
<v Speaker 3>granular research on like when illusions of control happen, Like

0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:01.040
<v Speaker 3>what are the kinds of things is that we think

0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:04.600
<v Speaker 3>we have more control of than others, more illusory control

0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:08.480
<v Speaker 3>over than others, and what kind of situations or states

0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:11.879
<v Speaker 3>can we be in that heighten this illusion? And to

0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:16.520
<v Speaker 3>continue with Thompson's overview, Thompson highlights seven variables that have

0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:19.560
<v Speaker 3>been studied and found to affect the illusion of control.

0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:22.240
<v Speaker 3>This list does not mean that these are the only

0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:25.040
<v Speaker 3>factors influencing it. It's just that these have been studied

0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:28.040
<v Speaker 3>well enough to discuss in this book chapter. So the

0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:32.359
<v Speaker 3>first one is skill related factors. Now, this was a

0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:35.919
<v Speaker 3>major part of the original nineteen seventy five paper by Langer.

0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:39.760
<v Speaker 3>A lot of studies have found that if a situation

0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:45.120
<v Speaker 3>has features we associate with dependence on skill, we're more

0:21:45.240 --> 0:21:48.960
<v Speaker 3>likely to experience an illusion of control. And examples of

0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:55.399
<v Speaker 3>these features could include quote, familiarity, making choices, active engagement

0:21:55.440 --> 0:22:01.080
<v Speaker 3>with the material, competition, and four knowledge. Talked about several

0:22:01.119 --> 0:22:04.680
<v Speaker 3>of these in the previous episode. For example, familiarity you

0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:07.520
<v Speaker 3>know you might be more inclined to think you have

0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:10.639
<v Speaker 3>control over the outcome of a chance game if you

0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:13.760
<v Speaker 3>are familiar with the game, or if there are elements

0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:16.399
<v Speaker 3>of the game that are familiar to you. And this

0:22:16.600 --> 0:22:19.320
<v Speaker 3>is generally true of skill based games, but wouldn't affect

0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:23.119
<v Speaker 3>chance based games. One of these variables, though, actually there

0:22:23.160 --> 0:22:25.440
<v Speaker 3>was a twenty twenty one paper that casts some doubt

0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:29.840
<v Speaker 3>over whether it affects illusions of control, and that variable

0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:33.639
<v Speaker 3>is choice. So the original idea is that if you

0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:37.600
<v Speaker 3>have a choice to make, that gives you illusions of control.

0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:40.680
<v Speaker 3>An example would be a lottery type game. So imagine

0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:43.600
<v Speaker 3>a game where you buy a lottery ticket. The ticket

0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:46.080
<v Speaker 3>has a random series of numbers on it, and you

0:22:46.119 --> 0:22:49.080
<v Speaker 3>win a prize if the winning number matches your ticket.

0:22:49.680 --> 0:22:52.399
<v Speaker 3>Now consider the same game, except you get to pick

0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:55.720
<v Speaker 3>your ticket numbers. Maybe you can use your lucky number,

0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:58.680
<v Speaker 3>which of course is the ISBN for the novelization of

0:22:58.720 --> 0:23:01.159
<v Speaker 3>Halloween three Season of the World, which by Jack Martin.

0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:02.800
<v Speaker 2>To your number, that's the one you play.

0:23:03.040 --> 0:23:06.439
<v Speaker 3>It's got to be what could be a luckier number?

0:23:06.600 --> 0:23:09.679
<v Speaker 3>Happy Happy Halloween. Now, of course, in a fair lottery like,

0:23:09.800 --> 0:23:12.359
<v Speaker 3>whatever the number is, it makes no difference whatsoever to

0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:15.720
<v Speaker 3>your chance of winning. Winning numbers are selected randomly. No

0:23:15.840 --> 0:23:18.160
<v Speaker 3>number has a higher chance of victory than any other.

0:23:18.760 --> 0:23:21.159
<v Speaker 3>And yet the fact that you get to choose your

0:23:21.240 --> 0:23:23.760
<v Speaker 3>number might make it seem like there's some element of

0:23:23.800 --> 0:23:27.160
<v Speaker 3>skill involved in this game, and thus increases your illution

0:23:27.320 --> 0:23:30.879
<v Speaker 3>of control. Langer did find this kind of result in

0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:35.639
<v Speaker 3>the nineteen seventy five paper. However, Thompson mentions that this

0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:40.840
<v Speaker 3>particular metric of choice specifically has been contradicted by recent research,

0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:43.880
<v Speaker 3>a paper by Klousowski at all in twenty twenty one,

0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:47.520
<v Speaker 3>which found that choice did not reliably cause an illusion

0:23:47.520 --> 0:23:48.160
<v Speaker 3>of control.

0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:51.240
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Like the scenario I'm instantly thinking of would be

0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:55.040
<v Speaker 2>the classic magician game of Like, Okay, draw a card

0:23:55.040 --> 0:23:56.879
<v Speaker 2>from this deck, and now I'm going to guess it,

0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:01.240
<v Speaker 2>assuming in this case that you were the magician, but

0:24:01.320 --> 0:24:04.119
<v Speaker 2>you have actually absolutely no magic up your sleeve, no trick.

0:24:04.400 --> 0:24:07.399
<v Speaker 2>You're just going completely off of chance. You know you

0:24:07.480 --> 0:24:10.280
<v Speaker 2>have a certain percentage chance of guessing it right because

0:24:10.280 --> 0:24:13.919
<v Speaker 2>there are only so many cards in that deck. Versus, Okay,

0:24:13.960 --> 0:24:15.840
<v Speaker 2>you draw a card at random from this deck. I'll

0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:18.520
<v Speaker 2>draw a card at random from this deck. Do you

0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:23.360
<v Speaker 2>think we're going to have the same card like by

0:24:23.480 --> 0:24:27.000
<v Speaker 2>being able to pick a card by saying I believe

0:24:27.040 --> 0:24:29.160
<v Speaker 2>you have the Ace of Spades in your hand when

0:24:29.200 --> 0:24:32.119
<v Speaker 2>it's just completely random, would you feel confident in making

0:24:32.119 --> 0:24:33.800
<v Speaker 2>that choice now? I feel like you would be more

0:24:33.800 --> 0:24:36.800
<v Speaker 2>confident in making that choice if the other person picked

0:24:36.840 --> 0:24:40.960
<v Speaker 2>their card, because then you can potentially overestimate your ability

0:24:41.000 --> 0:24:44.000
<v Speaker 2>to guess the mind of the individual. Okay, this is

0:24:44.080 --> 0:24:45.480
<v Speaker 2>the kind of person who's going to choose a king

0:24:45.560 --> 0:24:47.160
<v Speaker 2>or a queen, or they going to try and outsmart

0:24:47.200 --> 0:24:49.720
<v Speaker 2>me by, you know, choosing a two or a three

0:24:49.840 --> 0:24:51.920
<v Speaker 2>something that isn't superficially interesting.

0:24:52.359 --> 0:24:56.159
<v Speaker 3>I guess that would introduce other elements because it would introduce, like,

0:24:56.640 --> 0:24:58.760
<v Speaker 3>I don't know if the other person picking a card

0:24:58.760 --> 0:25:01.160
<v Speaker 3>in the scenario is technically a competitor. But we did

0:25:01.160 --> 0:25:04.640
<v Speaker 3>talk last time about how like competition in some experiments

0:25:04.680 --> 0:25:09.520
<v Speaker 3>seem to increase the illusion of control, and I don't

0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:13.200
<v Speaker 3>know it. That's an interesting scenario because it adds these

0:25:13.200 --> 0:25:18.880
<v Speaker 3>other variables too. My intuition is that that would increase

0:25:18.920 --> 0:25:21.439
<v Speaker 3>illusions of control. It feels like it would for me.

0:25:21.640 --> 0:25:25.280
<v Speaker 3>It would it would falsely increase my belief that I

0:25:25.320 --> 0:25:29.080
<v Speaker 3>could control the outcome even though I can't. And just

0:25:29.119 --> 0:25:31.639
<v Speaker 3>to go again on my intuitions, it would seem to

0:25:31.680 --> 0:25:36.159
<v Speaker 3>me that the choices could increase illusions of control, Like

0:25:36.200 --> 0:25:38.120
<v Speaker 3>if I get to pick the lottery numbers, it would

0:25:38.160 --> 0:25:40.760
<v Speaker 3>feel more likely like I had a better chance of winning,

0:25:41.720 --> 0:25:43.960
<v Speaker 3>But again. This twenty twenty one study found that in

0:25:44.000 --> 0:25:47.160
<v Speaker 3>some circumstances, no, that's not the case. So it might

0:25:47.200 --> 0:25:49.200
<v Speaker 3>It might have to do with just like how people

0:25:49.280 --> 0:25:52.160
<v Speaker 3>are primed to think about the task they're they're about

0:25:52.200 --> 0:25:54.560
<v Speaker 3>to do, you know, like, are you say, as we

0:25:54.600 --> 0:25:57.560
<v Speaker 3>talked about earlier, like, are you given some kind of

0:25:57.720 --> 0:26:01.560
<v Speaker 3>hint of remembering how probable these actually work as you're

0:26:01.560 --> 0:26:02.639
<v Speaker 3>engaging in the task.

0:26:03.080 --> 0:26:04.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, I don't know.

0:26:05.000 --> 0:26:07.280
<v Speaker 3>But anyway, So to come back to more factors that

0:26:07.800 --> 0:26:11.480
<v Speaker 3>can apparently influence it, according to experiments, one factor is

0:26:11.760 --> 0:26:16.040
<v Speaker 3>success or failure emphasis. This is the second thing Thompson lists.

0:26:16.480 --> 0:26:20.720
<v Speaker 3>So does the task or the context highlight the idea

0:26:20.840 --> 0:26:25.760
<v Speaker 3>of success or failure? One example here would be early

0:26:26.040 --> 0:26:29.520
<v Speaker 3>streaks in a game where you, you know, repeatedly guess

0:26:29.640 --> 0:26:33.479
<v Speaker 3>or draw something. So experiments have found if you let

0:26:33.560 --> 0:26:37.639
<v Speaker 3>somebody gamble on calling coin tosses. Again, coin tosses something

0:26:37.640 --> 0:26:41.720
<v Speaker 3>that in reality might not be truly perfectly random, it

0:26:41.800 --> 0:26:45.159
<v Speaker 3>is close enough to random. It's basically random, So you

0:26:45.160 --> 0:26:47.960
<v Speaker 3>should not have any skill at calling a coin toss.

0:26:48.080 --> 0:26:51.400
<v Speaker 3>But if people are gambling on coin tosses and they

0:26:51.440 --> 0:26:55.720
<v Speaker 3>have an early string of successes, at making the right call.

0:26:56.200 --> 0:27:00.119
<v Speaker 3>This will apparently increase the illusion of control relative to

0:27:00.200 --> 0:27:03.880
<v Speaker 3>subjects who have an early string of failures. So if

0:27:03.920 --> 0:27:07.160
<v Speaker 3>you lose a lot at the beginning, outcomes feel random.

0:27:07.480 --> 0:27:09.880
<v Speaker 3>If you win a lot at the beginning, you think

0:27:10.160 --> 0:27:14.679
<v Speaker 3>I'm doing this. In reality, it's equally random either way.

0:27:14.760 --> 0:27:18.119
<v Speaker 3>But we can get tricked into thinking that we have

0:27:18.240 --> 0:27:21.080
<v Speaker 3>control because we've been winning and it just seems like

0:27:21.160 --> 0:27:24.919
<v Speaker 3>winning is happening, so somehow I must be making it happen.

0:27:25.520 --> 0:27:28.959
<v Speaker 2>See. I feel rather opposite in Dungeons and Dragons. If

0:27:29.040 --> 0:27:30.960
<v Speaker 2>like the first couple of D twenty rolls of the

0:27:31.040 --> 0:27:34.720
<v Speaker 2>night are really high for me, or or heaven forbid

0:27:34.760 --> 0:27:38.359
<v Speaker 2>their natural twenties on things that don't matter, I have

0:27:38.440 --> 0:27:40.760
<v Speaker 2>this sinking suspicion that I'm just doomed when we get

0:27:40.760 --> 0:27:42.840
<v Speaker 2>to actual combat, because that's when the ones are going

0:27:42.880 --> 0:27:43.320
<v Speaker 2>to come out.

0:27:43.400 --> 0:27:46.439
<v Speaker 3>That is really funny. I've had the same feeling before.

0:27:46.600 --> 0:27:50.399
<v Speaker 3>It's almost as bad as like rolling a critical fail

0:27:50.520 --> 0:27:54.240
<v Speaker 3>on something important. Is rolling a critical success on something

0:27:54.280 --> 0:27:57.280
<v Speaker 3>that doesn't matter at all? Feel like I've wasted it?

0:27:59.640 --> 0:28:01.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, X, check to see if you can pick up

0:28:01.720 --> 0:28:04.000
<v Speaker 2>a stick and it's a natural twenty it's like, all right,

0:28:04.200 --> 0:28:07.680
<v Speaker 2>I needed to get like a three on that probably. Yeah.

0:28:07.880 --> 0:28:10.520
<v Speaker 3>So on the other hand, though, in this success failure thing,

0:28:11.520 --> 0:28:17.679
<v Speaker 3>failure apparently sometimes neutralizes illusory beliefs of control. So in

0:28:17.720 --> 0:28:21.120
<v Speaker 3>some studies they have found this is only true if

0:28:21.359 --> 0:28:25.840
<v Speaker 3>failure is clear and explicit. If there's like ambiguity in

0:28:25.880 --> 0:28:29.480
<v Speaker 3>the feedback and it's not one hundred percent clear whether

0:28:29.600 --> 0:28:32.440
<v Speaker 3>you have failed or not, the illusion of control can persist.

0:28:32.960 --> 0:28:36.639
<v Speaker 2>All right, yeah, a natural one on your D twenty row. Definitely.

0:28:36.680 --> 0:28:39.640
<v Speaker 2>I think we'll knock that illusion out of place.

0:28:39.720 --> 0:28:43.560
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, okay. Third factor that seems to influence it

0:28:44.000 --> 0:28:48.760
<v Speaker 3>need or desire for outcome. So evidence shows that how

0:28:48.840 --> 0:28:52.440
<v Speaker 3>much you want an outcome can increase the illusion of

0:28:52.480 --> 0:28:56.720
<v Speaker 3>control over the process of getting it. So an example

0:28:56.760 --> 0:28:59.880
<v Speaker 3>would be in a computer screen on set task we

0:29:00.080 --> 0:29:01.920
<v Speaker 3>talked about that earlier. That's the one with the green

0:29:02.000 --> 0:29:04.640
<v Speaker 3>exes and the red o's where people are pressing a

0:29:04.640 --> 0:29:07.440
<v Speaker 3>button trying to figure out if they can control making

0:29:07.480 --> 0:29:09.880
<v Speaker 3>the green exes appear on the screen. In this kind

0:29:09.880 --> 0:29:13.400
<v Speaker 3>of experiment, people believed that they had more they had

0:29:13.440 --> 0:29:18.480
<v Speaker 3>significantly more control if they received cash payments proportional to

0:29:18.520 --> 0:29:21.640
<v Speaker 3>the number of greenexes that appeared compared to people who

0:29:21.640 --> 0:29:24.400
<v Speaker 3>did the same task but did not get a cash reward.

0:29:24.440 --> 0:29:27.440
<v Speaker 3>There was no cash involved. And remember in this experiment

0:29:27.560 --> 0:29:31.959
<v Speaker 3>either way, subjects have zero control at all. A study

0:29:31.960 --> 0:29:35.160
<v Speaker 3>by Biner at All in nineteen ninety five found a

0:29:35.200 --> 0:29:38.200
<v Speaker 3>similar kind of thing, that the illusion of control was

0:29:38.320 --> 0:29:42.520
<v Speaker 3>increased for a random lottery with a food reward if

0:29:42.520 --> 0:29:46.720
<v Speaker 3>people getting a hamburger if the subject was hungry, compared

0:29:46.720 --> 0:29:49.800
<v Speaker 3>to subjects who were not hungry. So like, if the

0:29:49.880 --> 0:29:53.719
<v Speaker 3>reward is food and you are currently hungry, you have

0:29:53.880 --> 0:29:57.320
<v Speaker 3>more illusions of control over a chance outcome than if

0:29:57.320 --> 0:29:58.080
<v Speaker 3>you're not hungry.

0:29:58.600 --> 0:30:01.360
<v Speaker 2>All right, well that makes sense. I mean the scenario,

0:30:01.600 --> 0:30:04.240
<v Speaker 2>I mean the outcome, not so much the hamburger lottery.

0:30:04.240 --> 0:30:06.480
<v Speaker 2>I don't think I've encountered one of those in real life.

0:30:06.560 --> 0:30:09.480
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, the more desirable the outcome, the more acceptable

0:30:09.480 --> 0:30:12.440
<v Speaker 2>the gambling risk becomes, the more confident you are that

0:30:12.480 --> 0:30:14.800
<v Speaker 2>you can pull it off. I think I've felt this

0:30:14.840 --> 0:30:17.720
<v Speaker 2>way in the past, regarding things like DVD giveaways and

0:30:17.840 --> 0:30:20.440
<v Speaker 2>all you know, where it's like, oh, I'd like to

0:30:20.480 --> 0:30:23.800
<v Speaker 2>win that, Sure, it's worth my worth my time to

0:30:23.840 --> 0:30:27.400
<v Speaker 2>go ahead and and enter because yeah, I can imagine

0:30:27.440 --> 0:30:28.200
<v Speaker 2>that on my shelf.

0:30:28.280 --> 0:30:30.040
<v Speaker 3>Do you have a specific disc in mind here?

0:30:30.800 --> 0:30:34.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yeah, I ages ago I entered a contest and

0:30:34.760 --> 0:30:37.520
<v Speaker 2>won DVD copies of The Fly and The Fly Too,

0:30:38.200 --> 0:30:41.320
<v Speaker 2>and it was and it was it was like magic,

0:30:41.360 --> 0:30:43.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, because I'm like, yeah, I would mind winning that,

0:30:43.480 --> 0:30:46.440
<v Speaker 2>and bam I won it. And in a way, it

0:30:46.520 --> 0:30:48.920
<v Speaker 2>kind of like ruined it. It ruined things for me

0:30:49.040 --> 0:30:51.440
<v Speaker 2>moving forward because then anytime there's like a DVD giveaway,

0:30:51.480 --> 0:30:53.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, well, I won this. I won this once

0:30:54.040 --> 0:30:56.600
<v Speaker 2>before it could happen again. I'm good at this. Apparently.

0:30:57.120 --> 0:31:01.120
<v Speaker 3>Oh so you apparently had an early success that increased

0:31:01.120 --> 0:31:03.640
<v Speaker 3>the success salience of that kind of lottery for you.

0:31:03.760 --> 0:31:07.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I had a similar scenario happened with my son.

0:31:07.400 --> 0:31:09.880
<v Speaker 2>I took him to a local bowling alleys for years

0:31:09.880 --> 0:31:11.960
<v Speaker 2>and years ago when he was much younger. And you know,

0:31:12.000 --> 0:31:14.520
<v Speaker 2>the claw machines. We've talked about claw machines before. Oh yeah,

0:31:14.560 --> 0:31:16.880
<v Speaker 2>got on the show. You know, they're they're they're tricky

0:31:17.040 --> 0:31:20.880
<v Speaker 2>if you're predatory, if you want to describe them as such.

0:31:20.920 --> 0:31:23.080
<v Speaker 2>You know, it seems like an easy thing. You just

0:31:23.080 --> 0:31:24.800
<v Speaker 2>put in a quarter of claw grabs, a toy, you

0:31:24.840 --> 0:31:28.120
<v Speaker 2>get the toy, but there are a number of additional

0:31:28.120 --> 0:31:32.320
<v Speaker 2>tricks in play that that enable the house to win.

0:31:33.240 --> 0:31:35.480
<v Speaker 2>And uh, you know, of course he was interested in

0:31:35.480 --> 0:31:37.840
<v Speaker 2>trying out his claw machine, and I was like, well,

0:31:37.880 --> 0:31:41.360
<v Speaker 2>this is a teaching moment. I'd say it. Tell him,

0:31:41.360 --> 0:31:43.160
<v Speaker 2>all right, I'm going to give you, give you one

0:31:43.240 --> 0:31:46.760
<v Speaker 2>quarter or whatever it took to use the machine, and

0:31:47.200 --> 0:31:49.080
<v Speaker 2>but I want you to know that this. These machines

0:31:49.080 --> 0:31:51.840
<v Speaker 2>are tricky. They are made to trick you. You're not

0:31:51.880 --> 0:31:53.719
<v Speaker 2>going to win anything. And then then I'm like, go

0:31:53.800 --> 0:31:57.560
<v Speaker 2>forth and lose, you know, learn this lesson immediate jackpot.

0:31:57.600 --> 0:31:59.880
<v Speaker 2>He got some stuffy out of that, and I think

0:31:59.880 --> 0:32:02.360
<v Speaker 2>he still has that stuffy that I occasionally see in

0:32:02.360 --> 0:32:04.400
<v Speaker 2>his room. And it mocks me because I'm like, you

0:32:04.520 --> 0:32:07.160
<v Speaker 2>were never supposed to come out of that machine, and

0:32:07.240 --> 0:32:09.920
<v Speaker 2>you gave him too much confidence in these claw machines.

0:32:10.280 --> 0:32:12.760
<v Speaker 3>Oh that's terrible. Though, I would say at least the

0:32:12.800 --> 0:32:15.360
<v Speaker 3>claw machine is not a slot machine, because there is

0:32:15.560 --> 0:32:17.800
<v Speaker 3>some minor amount of skill involved.

0:32:17.960 --> 0:32:22.200
<v Speaker 2>Minor yes, and if memory serves like we'd have to

0:32:22.200 --> 0:32:26.640
<v Speaker 2>go deeper in. But I believe there's some additional shenanigans

0:32:26.680 --> 0:32:30.400
<v Speaker 2>going on. With those machines that enable occasional win because

0:32:30.440 --> 0:32:32.800
<v Speaker 2>that's the thing. People need to occasionally win those toys

0:32:32.800 --> 0:32:36.440
<v Speaker 2>out of those machines. Otherwise people will realized that, Okay,

0:32:36.480 --> 0:32:39.080
<v Speaker 2>there's just a bunch of dust covered stuff. He's in there.

0:32:39.160 --> 0:32:40.680
<v Speaker 2>Nobody's getting anything out of there.

0:32:41.400 --> 0:32:44.360
<v Speaker 3>I'm very sorry your son had an early success emphasis

0:32:44.400 --> 0:32:47.280
<v Speaker 3>on claw machines. That is an unfortunate fate.

0:32:47.880 --> 0:32:51.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, I let him have a number of failures after

0:32:51.080 --> 0:32:53.920
<v Speaker 2>that and on other visits, so I think the lesson

0:32:54.000 --> 0:32:56.000
<v Speaker 2>finally hammer him.

0:33:05.840 --> 0:33:08.640
<v Speaker 3>Oh but the flip side of the success failure emphasis

0:33:08.720 --> 0:33:12.640
<v Speaker 3>is that research has also found that there are increased

0:33:12.720 --> 0:33:15.920
<v Speaker 3>illusions of control in a situation where somebody is trying

0:33:15.920 --> 0:33:20.680
<v Speaker 3>to avoid an outcome they find extremely undesirable. Don't worry,

0:33:20.720 --> 0:33:24.080
<v Speaker 3>these experiments didn't have actual torture or anything. The really

0:33:24.160 --> 0:33:27.360
<v Speaker 3>undesirable conditions were things like having to speak in front

0:33:27.400 --> 0:33:31.560
<v Speaker 3>of a group, which is is a very terrifying prospect

0:33:31.560 --> 0:33:35.480
<v Speaker 3>to many of us, including myself, even though I speak

0:33:35.520 --> 0:33:37.880
<v Speaker 3>into a microphone for a living. So let that be

0:33:37.920 --> 0:33:39.960
<v Speaker 3>a comfort to you out there who have this same fear.

0:33:40.520 --> 0:33:42.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean it's a different scenario, to be sure.

0:33:43.240 --> 0:33:45.000
<v Speaker 3>Another one was like having to put your hand in

0:33:45.080 --> 0:33:49.000
<v Speaker 3>cold water. That's another common thing tested here. So people

0:33:49.000 --> 0:33:53.000
<v Speaker 3>who strongly wanted to avoid these outcomes mistakenly believed they

0:33:53.040 --> 0:33:56.560
<v Speaker 3>had more agency in the task that determined whether they

0:33:56.600 --> 0:33:58.680
<v Speaker 3>would have to do them or not. So it's just

0:33:58.720 --> 0:34:00.720
<v Speaker 3>a flip side of the thing, like, if you really

0:34:00.720 --> 0:34:03.520
<v Speaker 3>want that hamburger, you have more illusion of control over

0:34:03.960 --> 0:34:07.040
<v Speaker 3>the chance process of getting it. If you really want

0:34:07.080 --> 0:34:09.360
<v Speaker 3>to avoid speaking in front of a group, apparently you

0:34:09.440 --> 0:34:14.720
<v Speaker 3>have more illusions of control in avoiding that fade. Another

0:34:14.840 --> 0:34:17.440
<v Speaker 3>interesting thing noted here is that some studies have found

0:34:17.560 --> 0:34:22.480
<v Speaker 3>a greater illusion of control when people are experiencing heightened stress.

0:34:22.800 --> 0:34:27.480
<v Speaker 3>I thought that was interesting. Fourth factor is mood. This

0:34:27.520 --> 0:34:31.200
<v Speaker 3>is pretty straightforward, but studies have found on average, people

0:34:31.280 --> 0:34:35.000
<v Speaker 3>experience more illusory control when they're in a better mood,

0:34:35.880 --> 0:34:39.279
<v Speaker 3>and people with a negative mood showed less illusions of

0:34:39.320 --> 0:34:42.359
<v Speaker 3>control on average. Of course, this is probably not a

0:34:42.440 --> 0:34:45.319
<v Speaker 3>reason to try to be in a bad mood, but

0:34:45.480 --> 0:34:49.640
<v Speaker 3>you know, one advantage if you're currently feeling down is

0:34:49.680 --> 0:34:51.760
<v Speaker 3>that in this state of being in a bad mood,

0:34:52.480 --> 0:34:54.720
<v Speaker 3>you might be less likely to think you can control

0:34:54.800 --> 0:34:55.399
<v Speaker 3>things you can.

0:34:56.120 --> 0:34:58.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, though, of course, like we've been saying it's

0:34:58.640 --> 0:35:03.480
<v Speaker 2>complex anything human psyche's doing. So on the flip side,

0:35:03.480 --> 0:35:05.520
<v Speaker 2>you might find yourself more inclined to go after a

0:35:05.560 --> 0:35:08.880
<v Speaker 2>quick dopamine hit of initiating a gamble if you're in

0:35:08.920 --> 0:35:11.920
<v Speaker 2>a bad mood. So you know, a lot going on there.

0:35:12.160 --> 0:35:15.120
<v Speaker 3>Okay, fifth factor. We sort of already alluded to this one,

0:35:15.200 --> 0:35:18.920
<v Speaker 3>but this is what Thompson calls the intrusion of reality.

0:35:19.400 --> 0:35:23.000
<v Speaker 3>This basically means giving people a reality check. Illusion of

0:35:23.040 --> 0:35:26.360
<v Speaker 3>control is one type of cognitive illusion that seems pretty

0:35:26.400 --> 0:35:29.840
<v Speaker 3>easy to overcome in the moment by simply reminding people

0:35:30.280 --> 0:35:33.880
<v Speaker 3>what the probabilities actually are. So if you remind people

0:35:33.920 --> 0:35:37.319
<v Speaker 3>of the objective probability of winning a gambling task before

0:35:37.360 --> 0:35:40.080
<v Speaker 3>they place their bets, the illusion of control can be

0:35:40.160 --> 0:35:42.799
<v Speaker 3>significantly reduced or neutralized completely.

0:35:43.560 --> 0:35:45.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you see this a lot with coverage of

0:35:45.760 --> 0:35:50.319
<v Speaker 2>lottery odds, you know, the advertisements for the lottery and

0:35:50.400 --> 0:35:52.480
<v Speaker 2>like general buzz for the lottery make it seem like

0:35:52.520 --> 0:35:55.879
<v Speaker 2>anything as possible. You know, the winning ticket might be,

0:35:56.320 --> 0:35:57.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, it might have been sold to the gas

0:35:57.600 --> 0:36:02.440
<v Speaker 2>station down the street. But then oftentimes news reporting on

0:36:02.520 --> 0:36:05.080
<v Speaker 2>these situations will often drive home like no, you have

0:36:05.239 --> 0:36:08.480
<v Speaker 2>like this astronomically small chance of winning if you enter.

0:36:08.800 --> 0:36:11.239
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, here's your reality check. And it seems like with

0:36:11.280 --> 0:36:14.880
<v Speaker 3>illusions of control, a simple reality check is quite useful

0:36:14.880 --> 0:36:19.680
<v Speaker 3>to people. Next factor I thought was quite interesting. Thompson

0:36:19.760 --> 0:36:25.239
<v Speaker 3>mentions power. Apparently, people in positions of power and authority.

0:36:26.000 --> 0:36:30.080
<v Speaker 3>Of course, they do have more actual control over many situations,

0:36:30.080 --> 0:36:34.279
<v Speaker 3>that's what power means. But it seems power also correlates

0:36:34.360 --> 0:36:38.759
<v Speaker 3>with increased illusions of control. So if you like do

0:36:38.800 --> 0:36:42.320
<v Speaker 3>an experiment where you assign someone a position of power

0:36:42.400 --> 0:36:45.600
<v Speaker 3>over others in the experiment, or you prime them to

0:36:45.680 --> 0:36:47.759
<v Speaker 3>remember times in their life when they were in a

0:36:47.800 --> 0:36:51.360
<v Speaker 3>position of power, this seems to come with an increased

0:36:51.400 --> 0:36:55.640
<v Speaker 3>tendency toward the illusion of control. And that seemed very

0:36:55.680 --> 0:36:58.359
<v Speaker 3>interesting to me because you might imagine that it would

0:36:58.360 --> 0:37:00.359
<v Speaker 3>work the opposite way that you know, it's when you

0:37:00.400 --> 0:37:03.960
<v Speaker 3>feel disempowered that you dream of having more control. Maybe,

0:37:04.239 --> 0:37:06.680
<v Speaker 3>But the way this is framed actually does gel with

0:37:06.719 --> 0:37:09.719
<v Speaker 3>my experience. Like the people who get to be the

0:37:09.760 --> 0:37:12.399
<v Speaker 3>boss or get to be the leader in some way

0:37:13.120 --> 0:37:17.160
<v Speaker 3>seem more susceptible than regular people to thinking they can

0:37:17.280 --> 0:37:19.520
<v Speaker 3>like magically will a dice roll to come out the

0:37:19.520 --> 0:37:20.239
<v Speaker 3>way they want it.

0:37:21.600 --> 0:37:24.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, it's easy to apply this to various like

0:37:25.280 --> 0:37:29.160
<v Speaker 2>well known scenarios contemporary and historic. You know, you look

0:37:29.200 --> 0:37:31.680
<v Speaker 2>to some person in a position of power who ends

0:37:31.760 --> 0:37:34.480
<v Speaker 2>up in a situation where like, clearly the odds are

0:37:34.480 --> 0:37:38.960
<v Speaker 2>stacked against them, but they they continue on with like

0:37:39.000 --> 0:37:42.600
<v Speaker 2>a seeming overconfidence that we often just attribute to you

0:37:42.680 --> 0:37:46.480
<v Speaker 2>just to pure ego and so forth. But yeah, the

0:37:46.480 --> 0:37:49.160
<v Speaker 2>illusion of control could also play a huge part in it.

0:37:49.960 --> 0:37:52.800
<v Speaker 3>I wonder if there's actually some overlap with the idea

0:37:52.840 --> 0:37:55.279
<v Speaker 3>of success emphasis here, because like, if you are in

0:37:55.320 --> 0:37:59.160
<v Speaker 3>a position of power, you've had some reinforcement already of

0:37:59.239 --> 0:38:02.040
<v Speaker 3>like in some scenario where you didn't know what the

0:38:02.080 --> 0:38:04.200
<v Speaker 3>outcome was, like you got what you wanted, like you

0:38:04.320 --> 0:38:08.040
<v Speaker 3>got you know, promotion or increased status or whatever, and

0:38:08.080 --> 0:38:10.040
<v Speaker 3>you're in this position of power now, so you've sort

0:38:10.040 --> 0:38:12.319
<v Speaker 3>of been trained to think like, oh, yeah, I can

0:38:12.360 --> 0:38:14.640
<v Speaker 3>make things happen for me, and that could be that

0:38:14.680 --> 0:38:17.640
<v Speaker 3>could lead to illusions that you can do that in

0:38:17.680 --> 0:38:19.080
<v Speaker 3>scenarios when you can't.

0:38:19.280 --> 0:38:20.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Okay.

0:38:20.480 --> 0:38:23.279
<v Speaker 3>Another thing Thompson mentions that can affect it is what

0:38:23.600 --> 0:38:28.200
<v Speaker 3>she calls regulatory focus. This basically hinges on a theory

0:38:28.239 --> 0:38:32.120
<v Speaker 3>of motivation that distinguishes between situations where you have a

0:38:32.160 --> 0:38:36.279
<v Speaker 3>focus on getting an outcome you do want, versus situations

0:38:36.280 --> 0:38:38.920
<v Speaker 3>where you have a focus on avoiding an outcome you

0:38:39.000 --> 0:38:43.759
<v Speaker 3>don't want. And research by Langan's in two thousand and

0:38:43.800 --> 0:38:47.080
<v Speaker 3>seven found that when you're in the mindset of getting

0:38:47.120 --> 0:38:50.719
<v Speaker 3>an outcome you do want, that was more associated with

0:38:50.760 --> 0:38:52.920
<v Speaker 3>illusions of control than the other mindset.

0:38:53.960 --> 0:38:56.319
<v Speaker 2>That's interesting, But I guess, on the other hand, like

0:38:56.360 --> 0:38:59.840
<v Speaker 2>we shouldn't then desire a life where we're just focusing

0:38:59.880 --> 0:39:03.960
<v Speaker 2>on avoiding negative outcomes, because right that sounds pretty dreadful.

0:39:03.960 --> 0:39:07.080
<v Speaker 2>I guess in reality, you'd want some sort of healthy

0:39:07.120 --> 0:39:10.160
<v Speaker 2>balance of the two without you know, too much tendency

0:39:10.200 --> 0:39:12.880
<v Speaker 2>towards either illusion exactly.

0:39:13.000 --> 0:39:15.080
<v Speaker 3>I mean in the same way that you might be

0:39:15.160 --> 0:39:17.400
<v Speaker 3>less prone to illusions of control if you're in a

0:39:17.440 --> 0:39:20.080
<v Speaker 3>negative mood, but that probably shouldn't make you want to

0:39:20.120 --> 0:39:23.600
<v Speaker 3>be in a negative mood. Another one I just happened

0:39:23.600 --> 0:39:26.000
<v Speaker 3>to come across. This is not on Thompson's list, but

0:39:26.480 --> 0:39:29.280
<v Speaker 3>another paper mentioned it, so I thought i'd take a look.

0:39:29.719 --> 0:39:34.320
<v Speaker 3>Is the idea of what's called deliberative versus implemental mindset.

0:39:34.600 --> 0:39:38.160
<v Speaker 3>So this is the effect of what kind of frame

0:39:38.200 --> 0:39:41.719
<v Speaker 3>of mind you're in when approaching a control judgment. So

0:39:41.840 --> 0:39:46.280
<v Speaker 3>this was a paper by Galwitzer and Kinney in nineteen

0:39:46.360 --> 0:39:50.080
<v Speaker 3>eighty nine called Effects of Deliberative and implemental mindsets on

0:39:50.080 --> 0:39:54.080
<v Speaker 3>the Illusion of control. This is a paper that used

0:39:54.120 --> 0:39:56.840
<v Speaker 3>a light onset experiment like the kinds we've talked about before,

0:39:56.880 --> 0:39:58.640
<v Speaker 3>where you know, you're trying to turn on a light

0:39:58.719 --> 0:40:01.200
<v Speaker 3>by figuring out, you know, if pressing a button turns

0:40:01.239 --> 0:40:04.920
<v Speaker 3>it on or not. And this experiment had two different

0:40:05.000 --> 0:40:08.319
<v Speaker 3>experimental groups doing the same task, but they were separated

0:40:08.360 --> 0:40:12.640
<v Speaker 3>by the independent variable of a mental exercise. Before making

0:40:12.680 --> 0:40:17.319
<v Speaker 3>their judgments, one group was asked to quote deliberate on

0:40:17.360 --> 0:40:20.880
<v Speaker 3>an unresolved personal problem, so you know, thinking about a

0:40:20.920 --> 0:40:25.400
<v Speaker 3>problem considering various solutions. The other group was asked to

0:40:25.800 --> 0:40:30.080
<v Speaker 3>plan the implementation of a personal goal, so you know,

0:40:30.120 --> 0:40:31.879
<v Speaker 3>come up with a plan of action to get what

0:40:31.920 --> 0:40:36.960
<v Speaker 3>you want. And this study found that the deliberation group

0:40:37.320 --> 0:40:42.200
<v Speaker 3>experienced less illusory control on the unrelated light onset task,

0:40:42.719 --> 0:40:46.120
<v Speaker 3>so quote. Overall finding suggests that people who are trying

0:40:46.160 --> 0:40:49.840
<v Speaker 3>to make decisions develop a deliberative mindset that allows for

0:40:49.920 --> 0:40:54.200
<v Speaker 3>a realistic view of action outcome expectancies, whereas people who

0:40:54.239 --> 0:40:58.440
<v Speaker 3>try to act on a decision develop an implemental mindset

0:40:58.480 --> 0:41:03.080
<v Speaker 3>that promotes illusory optimism. And that was to the extent

0:41:03.120 --> 0:41:06.719
<v Speaker 3>that this is a valid finding that that was illuminating

0:41:06.760 --> 0:41:09.120
<v Speaker 3>to me because it's like, Okay, if you're more just

0:41:09.440 --> 0:41:14.319
<v Speaker 3>sort of exploring ideas, thinking about different contingencies and all that,

0:41:15.320 --> 0:41:18.720
<v Speaker 3>you apparently might be more realistic about how much control

0:41:18.760 --> 0:41:21.800
<v Speaker 3>you have. But once you get into thinking about how

0:41:21.840 --> 0:41:25.920
<v Speaker 3>to get something done, then you're more prone to illusions

0:41:25.960 --> 0:41:29.239
<v Speaker 3>of control, which might actually be useful even though it's

0:41:29.280 --> 0:41:31.640
<v Speaker 3>just as we said last time, the illusion of control

0:41:31.719 --> 0:41:35.640
<v Speaker 3>could be useful even though it generates false beliefs, because

0:41:35.719 --> 0:41:39.800
<v Speaker 3>maybe it maybe those false beliefs could be motivating, could

0:41:39.840 --> 0:41:42.000
<v Speaker 3>help you, you know, spur you to action.

0:41:43.040 --> 0:41:45.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, I mean, you're working on something that's going

0:41:45.600 --> 0:41:47.440
<v Speaker 2>to be entered in a contest. Let's say you know,

0:41:48.120 --> 0:41:50.920
<v Speaker 2>your chances of actually winning that contest may be to

0:41:51.040 --> 0:41:54.279
<v Speaker 2>small due to you know, various various factors that have

0:41:54.280 --> 0:41:56.000
<v Speaker 2>nothing to do with the quality of the work, but

0:41:56.120 --> 0:41:58.920
<v Speaker 2>you may be inspired to put more work into that,

0:41:59.080 --> 0:42:02.520
<v Speaker 2>into into the quality, you know, to put more effort

0:42:02.560 --> 0:42:05.160
<v Speaker 2>into the creation of whatever it is you're making. And

0:42:05.360 --> 0:42:08.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, you know, we knew that first prize ribbon,

0:42:09.320 --> 0:42:11.960
<v Speaker 2>but it could result in a better product overall.

0:42:12.520 --> 0:42:14.680
<v Speaker 3>Okay, So the last thing I want to talk about

0:42:14.680 --> 0:42:17.040
<v Speaker 3>in this part of our series is I've mentioned there

0:42:17.080 --> 0:42:22.120
<v Speaker 3>are some criticisms of the concept of the illusion of control.

0:42:23.160 --> 0:42:27.840
<v Speaker 3>There is one really interesting, complicating result I found concerning

0:42:27.960 --> 0:42:30.440
<v Speaker 3>when the illusion of control manifests, and that was in

0:42:30.480 --> 0:42:34.400
<v Speaker 3>a paper by Francesca Gino, Zachariah Sharik, and don A.

0:42:34.640 --> 0:42:39.359
<v Speaker 3>Moore published in Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes in

0:42:39.360 --> 0:42:43.080
<v Speaker 3>twenty eleven. Paper was called keeping the Illusion of Control

0:42:43.200 --> 0:42:49.120
<v Speaker 3>under Control, Ceilings, floors, and imperfect calibration. And so this

0:42:49.239 --> 0:42:53.399
<v Speaker 3>paper offers a critique of illusion of control research by

0:42:53.400 --> 0:42:57.839
<v Speaker 3>suggesting that maybe it's better to think about this as

0:42:57.880 --> 0:43:03.520
<v Speaker 3>a general tendency to make incorrect estimates of our level

0:43:03.560 --> 0:43:08.640
<v Speaker 3>of control over things. And this would include both overestimating

0:43:08.920 --> 0:43:13.560
<v Speaker 3>and underestimating our level of control in situations where the

0:43:13.600 --> 0:43:18.040
<v Speaker 3>evidence is somewhat ambiguous. So, according to these authors, the

0:43:18.080 --> 0:43:24.160
<v Speaker 3>literature appears to support a general overestimation of control merely

0:43:24.280 --> 0:43:28.400
<v Speaker 3>because so many of these studies focus on games of chance,

0:43:28.840 --> 0:43:32.360
<v Speaker 3>and other purely random outcomes, things that we have zero

0:43:32.480 --> 0:43:36.320
<v Speaker 3>control over, and thus belief in any amount of control

0:43:36.400 --> 0:43:40.680
<v Speaker 3>in these experiments will be factually mistaken. But the authors

0:43:40.680 --> 0:43:44.440
<v Speaker 3>of this paper basically they accept that pattern is valid.

0:43:44.560 --> 0:43:47.719
<v Speaker 3>But they also say, if you give people tasks where

0:43:47.719 --> 0:43:51.280
<v Speaker 3>they have a high level of control, sometimes you should

0:43:51.280 --> 0:43:55.759
<v Speaker 3>expect to see subjects systematically underestimate how much control they

0:43:55.760 --> 0:43:59.440
<v Speaker 3>have on those things. So the authors perform several experiments

0:43:59.480 --> 0:44:03.400
<v Speaker 3>to test them, and they found that across three experiments,

0:44:04.040 --> 0:44:08.960
<v Speaker 3>indeed there is a corresponding illusory lack of control in

0:44:09.040 --> 0:44:12.000
<v Speaker 3>some cases where people have a high degree of control

0:44:12.040 --> 0:44:15.640
<v Speaker 3>over outcomes. So I wanted to describe just one example

0:44:15.680 --> 0:44:18.960
<v Speaker 3>of the kinds of experiments they did. Subjects would be

0:44:19.000 --> 0:44:21.799
<v Speaker 3>asked to do a kind of word search puzzle on

0:44:21.840 --> 0:44:25.240
<v Speaker 3>computer screens. They're looking for like patterns of repeating letters

0:44:25.280 --> 0:44:30.080
<v Speaker 3>and a jumble of letters, and occasionally, at random time intervals,

0:44:30.280 --> 0:44:33.920
<v Speaker 3>the background of the screens they're looking at would change color,

0:44:34.480 --> 0:44:36.680
<v Speaker 3>maybe making it harder to pick out the letters and

0:44:36.719 --> 0:44:40.160
<v Speaker 3>solve the puzzle. Participants could press a button to make

0:44:40.239 --> 0:44:43.520
<v Speaker 3>the background revert to its original color and make the

0:44:43.520 --> 0:44:47.600
<v Speaker 3>game easier again. And so the independent variable here was

0:44:47.840 --> 0:44:51.800
<v Speaker 3>how responsive the background was to presses of the button.

0:44:52.280 --> 0:44:56.320
<v Speaker 3>The button could be set to zero percent control, fifteen percent,

0:44:56.800 --> 0:45:00.960
<v Speaker 3>fifty percent, and eighty five percent. And after this puzzle

0:45:00.960 --> 0:45:04.400
<v Speaker 3>search game was over, subjects were asked what level of

0:45:04.440 --> 0:45:08.040
<v Speaker 3>control they thought they had over the background color with

0:45:08.120 --> 0:45:12.160
<v Speaker 3>the button, and as predicted in this experiment, the authors

0:45:12.239 --> 0:45:15.759
<v Speaker 3>found in the low control conditions, like if you have

0:45:16.080 --> 0:45:19.839
<v Speaker 3>zero percent or fifteen percent of control over the background,

0:45:20.200 --> 0:45:22.440
<v Speaker 3>there was an illusion of control, same kind of thing

0:45:22.440 --> 0:45:25.440
<v Speaker 3>you would expect based on these previous experiments, But in

0:45:25.520 --> 0:45:29.200
<v Speaker 3>the high control conditions, where players had like eighty five

0:45:29.280 --> 0:45:32.719
<v Speaker 3>percent control over the background, they thought they had less

0:45:32.840 --> 0:45:36.480
<v Speaker 3>control than they actually did. So they did three experiments

0:45:36.480 --> 0:45:38.839
<v Speaker 3>in total, and in the end, the authors here say

0:45:38.920 --> 0:45:43.799
<v Speaker 3>that this raises doubts about whether people actually do systematically

0:45:44.000 --> 0:45:48.400
<v Speaker 3>overestimate their control, and instead, what might be more accurate

0:45:48.440 --> 0:45:51.560
<v Speaker 3>to say is that people overestimate their control when they

0:45:51.600 --> 0:45:55.600
<v Speaker 3>have little and underestimate their control when they have much.

0:45:56.000 --> 0:45:58.279
<v Speaker 3>And so they they offer this as a critique of

0:45:58.400 --> 0:46:01.560
<v Speaker 3>the sort of theoretical frame work of the illusion of control,

0:46:02.080 --> 0:46:04.920
<v Speaker 3>because they say, really, that's only half of the picture,

0:46:05.080 --> 0:46:07.920
<v Speaker 3>and that it's more accurate probably to say that we

0:46:08.040 --> 0:46:12.080
<v Speaker 3>have a general tendency to make mistaken judgments about the

0:46:12.200 --> 0:46:14.839
<v Speaker 3>level of control we have over events, and that goes

0:46:14.880 --> 0:46:15.560
<v Speaker 3>both ways.

0:46:16.080 --> 0:46:18.440
<v Speaker 2>Interesting, Yeah, I mean it reminds me of various discussions

0:46:18.440 --> 0:46:22.840
<v Speaker 2>we've had about occasional, occasionally beneficial errors and cognition. You know,

0:46:22.920 --> 0:46:26.759
<v Speaker 2>sometimes overconfidence pays off, like we were just saying, sometimes

0:46:26.800 --> 0:46:30.720
<v Speaker 2>overconfidence just gives you confidence you need to do something,

0:46:31.840 --> 0:46:35.080
<v Speaker 2>and sometimes an abundance of caution pays off. And then,

0:46:35.160 --> 0:46:37.560
<v Speaker 2>of course, in either case, sometimes it doesn't work out

0:46:38.239 --> 0:46:41.920
<v Speaker 2>well for the individual. Either. Overconfidence can screw you up,

0:46:41.960 --> 0:46:45.080
<v Speaker 2>and so can being too cautious, and I guess you

0:46:45.160 --> 0:46:46.640
<v Speaker 2>need to some degree a little bit of both to

0:46:46.680 --> 0:46:50.080
<v Speaker 2>sort of balance out these illusions.

0:46:50.600 --> 0:46:52.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, is it all right to have one type of

0:46:53.280 --> 0:46:57.080
<v Speaker 3>illusion pretty consistently if you have like a compensating illusion

0:46:57.200 --> 0:46:59.279
<v Speaker 3>that sort of like steers you toward the middle.

0:46:59.640 --> 0:47:01.120
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. Maybe. I mean I feel like a

0:47:01.160 --> 0:47:04.279
<v Speaker 2>lot of our worldviews are kind of arranged like this.

0:47:04.360 --> 0:47:07.560
<v Speaker 2>There are the things that we are unreasonably anxious about

0:47:08.080 --> 0:47:11.759
<v Speaker 2>and unreasonably cautious about perhaps or at least have a

0:47:11.800 --> 0:47:13.960
<v Speaker 2>heightened level of caution, And then there are other areas

0:47:13.960 --> 0:47:16.160
<v Speaker 2>where we may kind of have blinders on and we're

0:47:16.160 --> 0:47:18.160
<v Speaker 2>just kind of like babes in the woods with those

0:47:18.200 --> 0:47:21.600
<v Speaker 2>particular threats. And yeah, at the end of the day,

0:47:21.640 --> 0:47:25.640
<v Speaker 2>like you can't be over confident about everything. You're going

0:47:25.680 --> 0:47:27.799
<v Speaker 2>to get plowed over on the but you've got to

0:47:27.880 --> 0:47:31.360
<v Speaker 2>do things like leave the house, so you have to

0:47:31.800 --> 0:47:34.800
<v Speaker 2>have like some level of confidence, even in cases where

0:47:35.160 --> 0:47:42.040
<v Speaker 2>the confidence is outpacing the actual chances a little bit.

0:47:42.520 --> 0:47:44.480
<v Speaker 3>All right, well, I think maybe we should call it

0:47:44.520 --> 0:47:46.960
<v Speaker 3>there for part two on the illusion of control.

0:47:47.560 --> 0:47:49.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, obviously we'd love to hear from everyone out there

0:47:50.000 --> 0:47:53.440
<v Speaker 2>if you have feedback personal experience on anything we discussed here.

0:47:54.040 --> 0:47:56.680
<v Speaker 2>As usual, remind everybody that stuft to Blew Your Mind

0:47:56.719 --> 0:47:59.400
<v Speaker 2>is primarily a science podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays

0:47:59.400 --> 0:48:03.160
<v Speaker 2>and Thursday, we have listener mail. On Mondays, we have

0:48:03.360 --> 0:48:06.719
<v Speaker 2>one of about three different varieties of short form episodes

0:48:06.760 --> 0:48:09.400
<v Speaker 2>on Wednesday, and then on Friday, we set aside most

0:48:09.440 --> 0:48:11.719
<v Speaker 2>serious concerns to just talk about a weird movie on

0:48:12.000 --> 0:48:13.480
<v Speaker 2>Weird House Cinema.

0:48:13.760 --> 0:48:17.440
<v Speaker 3>Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

0:48:17.520 --> 0:48:19.120
<v Speaker 3>If you would like to get in touch with us

0:48:19.120 --> 0:48:21.920
<v Speaker 3>with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

0:48:21.920 --> 0:48:23.959
<v Speaker 3>a topic for the future, or just to say hello.

0:48:24.080 --> 0:48:26.720
<v Speaker 3>You can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

0:48:26.719 --> 0:48:35.520
<v Speaker 3>your Mind dot com.

0:48:35.560 --> 0:48:38.520
<v Speaker 1>Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

0:48:38.600 --> 0:48:41.400
<v Speaker 1>more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

0:48:41.520 --> 0:48:57.440
<v Speaker 1>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.

0:49:00.040 --> 0:49:01.959
<v Speaker 2>A four pop music