1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,196 --> 00:00:24,036 Speaker 2: By twenty twenty, Nina Mohunty had been working in fintech 3 00:00:24,316 --> 00:00:29,036 Speaker 2: in financial technology for several years. She'd worked at MasterCard. 4 00:00:29,676 --> 00:00:31,996 Speaker 2: At this point, she was working at Klarna, the buy now, 5 00:00:32,036 --> 00:00:34,996 Speaker 2: pay later company, and she was working for them in London, 6 00:00:35,676 --> 00:00:38,516 Speaker 2: and she started paying attention to what seemed like a 7 00:00:38,556 --> 00:00:44,596 Speaker 2: big underserved market for financial technology immigrants. There were, of course, 8 00:00:44,756 --> 00:00:47,316 Speaker 2: lots of tools for immigrants to send money home right, 9 00:00:47,356 --> 00:00:50,276 Speaker 2: lots of tools for remittances, but it didn't seem like 10 00:00:50,356 --> 00:00:53,876 Speaker 2: anyone was creating financial tools to help immigrants save money 11 00:00:54,356 --> 00:00:56,796 Speaker 2: in the UK where they were for themselves. 12 00:00:57,436 --> 00:01:00,556 Speaker 3: So I went down the rabbit hole and I spoke 13 00:01:00,596 --> 00:01:04,236 Speaker 3: to anyone that was speak to me. People often say 14 00:01:04,236 --> 00:01:08,036 Speaker 3: that I have the personality of a golden retriever. It 15 00:01:08,116 --> 00:01:10,596 Speaker 3: just speaks to anyone. I was going up to people 16 00:01:10,636 --> 00:01:13,876 Speaker 3: and saying, you know, bus drivers on their cigarette bricks 17 00:01:13,916 --> 00:01:16,516 Speaker 3: and asking them how are you managing your money? And 18 00:01:16,556 --> 00:01:18,516 Speaker 3: I was going to cleaners and offices, and I was 19 00:01:18,556 --> 00:01:23,116 Speaker 3: going up to you know, nurses. I was literally someone 20 00:01:23,196 --> 00:01:25,076 Speaker 3: was taking blood and I was asking them about how 21 00:01:25,116 --> 00:01:29,116 Speaker 3: they're managing their money. And these all became translated over 22 00:01:29,156 --> 00:01:33,276 Speaker 3: time into post it notes that started to populate my wall, 23 00:01:34,036 --> 00:01:38,836 Speaker 3: and it very much looked like that meme from Always 24 00:01:38,876 --> 00:01:42,956 Speaker 3: Sunny in Philadelphia where He's got the red string. And 25 00:01:43,596 --> 00:01:46,196 Speaker 3: I remember one day waking up and just looking at 26 00:01:46,196 --> 00:01:48,236 Speaker 3: this wall, and because I had just moved back to 27 00:01:48,276 --> 00:01:50,636 Speaker 3: the UK, I didn't have anything on my walls. It 28 00:01:50,676 --> 00:01:56,316 Speaker 3: was like a barely furnished flat and I didn't have 29 00:01:56,476 --> 00:01:59,436 Speaker 3: room for art on my walls because it was covered 30 00:01:59,516 --> 00:02:03,076 Speaker 3: in screenshots of apps that already exist out there and 31 00:02:03,116 --> 00:02:05,996 Speaker 3: what I thought they were doing well. It had notes 32 00:02:06,036 --> 00:02:08,676 Speaker 3: of you know, a quote that someone said to me 33 00:02:08,676 --> 00:02:10,596 Speaker 3: when we were having a chat and about how they 34 00:02:10,636 --> 00:02:15,236 Speaker 3: wish they could do xyz And so that was my 35 00:02:15,356 --> 00:02:19,276 Speaker 3: decor and that was ultimately what pushed me to start 36 00:02:19,276 --> 00:02:22,476 Speaker 3: my business Blue Money. 37 00:02:27,276 --> 00:02:29,556 Speaker 2: I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, the 38 00:02:29,596 --> 00:02:31,436 Speaker 2: show where I talk to people who are trying to 39 00:02:31,476 --> 00:02:35,516 Speaker 2: make technological progress. My guest today is Nina Mohunti, the 40 00:02:35,596 --> 00:02:39,596 Speaker 2: founder and CEO of Blue Money. As you'll hear, Nina 41 00:02:39,636 --> 00:02:42,796 Speaker 2: wound up creating an app based on a savings and 42 00:02:42,836 --> 00:02:45,316 Speaker 2: credit system that has been used around the world for 43 00:02:45,356 --> 00:02:49,516 Speaker 2: a thousand years, literally a thousand years, And she told 44 00:02:49,556 --> 00:02:52,396 Speaker 2: me she hopes to build on this thousand year old 45 00:02:52,436 --> 00:02:56,596 Speaker 2: tradition to eventually create an international financial powerhouse. 46 00:02:57,996 --> 00:03:01,916 Speaker 3: So the problem that I kept coming across is people 47 00:03:01,996 --> 00:03:07,476 Speaker 3: that are new to a country find it very, very 48 00:03:07,516 --> 00:03:13,276 Speaker 3: difficult to actually integrate into the financial system. And there's 49 00:03:13,716 --> 00:03:17,156 Speaker 3: a number of reasons for this. People might struggle to 50 00:03:17,156 --> 00:03:21,916 Speaker 3: get access to credit because they don't have a credit score, 51 00:03:22,596 --> 00:03:26,356 Speaker 3: and especially in the US and increasingly in Europe, your 52 00:03:26,396 --> 00:03:29,076 Speaker 3: credit score determines a lot about what you can do, 53 00:03:29,876 --> 00:03:32,876 Speaker 3: oftentimes if you can rent a place from a private landlord, 54 00:03:32,916 --> 00:03:35,796 Speaker 3: for example, where you can get a job, So these 55 00:03:35,796 --> 00:03:38,836 Speaker 3: are all things that are really important. It affects your 56 00:03:38,836 --> 00:03:42,636 Speaker 3: ability to get insurance, right and if you're driving, you 57 00:03:42,676 --> 00:03:48,116 Speaker 3: need car insurance most places. And if the financial system 58 00:03:48,956 --> 00:03:52,156 Speaker 3: doesn't know who you are, because there's no pay per 59 00:03:52,236 --> 00:03:55,836 Speaker 3: trail of you in this country, you're basically invisible to 60 00:03:55,916 --> 00:03:59,236 Speaker 3: the financial system. And that's what I kept hearing over 61 00:03:59,356 --> 00:04:01,596 Speaker 3: and over and over when I spoke to folks, which 62 00:04:01,716 --> 00:04:06,676 Speaker 3: was I'm here, I have a bank account, but I 63 00:04:06,756 --> 00:04:10,476 Speaker 3: don't know what is available to me, and I struggle 64 00:04:10,796 --> 00:04:14,356 Speaker 3: to access other financial products. Okay, and when I do, 65 00:04:15,276 --> 00:04:18,676 Speaker 3: if I get to that stage where I know what 66 00:04:18,716 --> 00:04:23,836 Speaker 3: I want. I want a car loan. I can't because 67 00:04:24,156 --> 00:04:26,636 Speaker 3: I don't exist, I don't have a credit score. So 68 00:04:26,636 --> 00:04:29,556 Speaker 3: I'm going to just have a someone say well, computer 69 00:04:29,636 --> 00:04:32,036 Speaker 3: says no, there's no car loan available for you. 70 00:04:32,636 --> 00:04:36,516 Speaker 2: So okay, So this is the landscape that you're walking into. 71 00:04:36,996 --> 00:04:38,236 Speaker 2: What do you decide to do? 72 00:04:39,276 --> 00:04:42,476 Speaker 3: Yes. One of the things that kept coming out of 73 00:04:42,516 --> 00:04:48,996 Speaker 3: these conversations was the presence of informal financial systems. And 74 00:04:49,036 --> 00:04:51,636 Speaker 3: this was really intriguing to me. I come from an 75 00:04:51,636 --> 00:04:55,956 Speaker 3: immigrant background, and one of the behaviors that kept coming 76 00:04:56,036 --> 00:04:59,356 Speaker 3: up was a behavior that I recognized actually, in which 77 00:04:59,436 --> 00:05:03,156 Speaker 3: groups of people would come together and pull their funds, 78 00:05:04,076 --> 00:05:08,516 Speaker 3: often with their own social group. So you know someone 79 00:05:08,516 --> 00:05:10,636 Speaker 3: that they see at the market, or they live on 80 00:05:10,676 --> 00:05:13,996 Speaker 3: the same council estate together, or they see each other 81 00:05:14,036 --> 00:05:17,516 Speaker 3: at church or mosque, and they would come together and 82 00:05:17,596 --> 00:05:21,556 Speaker 3: pull their money and kind of increase their affordability for 83 00:05:21,636 --> 00:05:24,516 Speaker 3: one person at a time within that group. 84 00:05:24,956 --> 00:05:27,276 Speaker 2: Let's talk about this in some detail, because this is 85 00:05:27,276 --> 00:05:32,396 Speaker 2: a very specific thing. Right, it has an academic name. Right, 86 00:05:32,636 --> 00:05:37,116 Speaker 2: it's called the Rotating Savings and Credit Association absolutely ROSCA 87 00:05:37,196 --> 00:05:40,156 Speaker 2: to its friends. Yes, and like it's actually One of 88 00:05:40,196 --> 00:05:42,356 Speaker 2: the most interesting things to me about what you are 89 00:05:42,356 --> 00:05:44,236 Speaker 2: doing is that it is this thing that is like 90 00:05:44,396 --> 00:05:50,236 Speaker 2: a thousand years old. Literally yes, So so tell me specifically, 91 00:05:50,316 --> 00:05:53,476 Speaker 2: like how does erosca work? Right, old school before you 92 00:05:53,516 --> 00:05:54,756 Speaker 2: come along, old school. 93 00:05:54,876 --> 00:05:57,276 Speaker 3: The way that this is work, this would work is 94 00:05:57,676 --> 00:05:59,516 Speaker 3: I'm going to give you the example of my grandma 95 00:06:00,236 --> 00:06:03,876 Speaker 3: who used to do this in her village in India. 96 00:06:03,916 --> 00:06:06,476 Speaker 2: But this is true story. This is a truth just 97 00:06:06,916 --> 00:06:08,396 Speaker 2: so story. It's actually happening. 98 00:06:08,476 --> 00:06:11,196 Speaker 3: This is actually happens. This is a true story. My 99 00:06:11,276 --> 00:06:17,796 Speaker 3: grandmother lived in a small village and she would choose 100 00:06:17,876 --> 00:06:21,156 Speaker 3: people from the village who she would see at market, 101 00:06:21,196 --> 00:06:24,636 Speaker 3: who she would see at the temple, who she knew 102 00:06:24,676 --> 00:06:28,436 Speaker 3: were trustworthy, to come together into this group. And she 103 00:06:28,476 --> 00:06:32,876 Speaker 3: would determine a set sum of money. So to make 104 00:06:32,916 --> 00:06:37,236 Speaker 3: the maths easy, let's say one hundred rupees, okay, and 105 00:06:37,476 --> 00:06:40,676 Speaker 3: let's say there were ten women that were coming together. 106 00:06:41,756 --> 00:06:44,956 Speaker 3: So these ten women would agree to put a hundred 107 00:06:44,996 --> 00:06:50,356 Speaker 3: groupees into a pot every month. So my grandmother would 108 00:06:50,356 --> 00:06:53,236 Speaker 3: go around and she would collect the one hundred rupees 109 00:06:53,276 --> 00:06:56,916 Speaker 3: from all ten women, and that pot would suddenly have 110 00:06:57,396 --> 00:07:01,356 Speaker 3: a thousand rupees in it and one woman would be 111 00:07:01,516 --> 00:07:05,596 Speaker 3: given that one thousand rupees to have for the month, 112 00:07:06,156 --> 00:07:09,916 Speaker 3: so they could spend it however they wished. They could 113 00:07:09,956 --> 00:07:15,196 Speaker 3: buy a new sorry, they could you know, sacrifice something 114 00:07:15,356 --> 00:07:18,196 Speaker 3: at the temple, they could put it towards their child's 115 00:07:18,196 --> 00:07:21,596 Speaker 3: tuition for school, whatever they wanted to do with it. 116 00:07:22,156 --> 00:07:25,236 Speaker 3: The next month, they would all come together, or rather 117 00:07:25,436 --> 00:07:28,716 Speaker 3: my grandmother would go and seek them out and gather 118 00:07:28,836 --> 00:07:32,356 Speaker 3: that one hundred rupees from each person until all ten 119 00:07:32,436 --> 00:07:34,596 Speaker 3: had put one hundred rupees in, which meant there was 120 00:07:34,636 --> 00:07:37,836 Speaker 3: a thousand rupees for the next person to use. And 121 00:07:37,916 --> 00:07:42,996 Speaker 3: so every month that would rotate until each person over 122 00:07:43,036 --> 00:07:46,436 Speaker 3: that ten month cycle had an opportunity to use that 123 00:07:46,516 --> 00:07:51,436 Speaker 3: one thousand rupees. And what is so fascinating about this 124 00:07:51,516 --> 00:07:56,796 Speaker 3: to me is it is something that I thought was Asian, 125 00:07:56,956 --> 00:08:01,076 Speaker 3: because I'm half Indian half Taiwanese. We do this in 126 00:08:01,076 --> 00:08:04,116 Speaker 3: Taiwan and in China as well. We call it hui 127 00:08:04,876 --> 00:08:10,196 Speaker 3: which means association or hui kind of coming together in 128 00:08:10,236 --> 00:08:13,476 Speaker 3: an association. But in India we call them chip funds 129 00:08:13,716 --> 00:08:16,796 Speaker 3: or kiddies. So I thought it must be an Asian thing. 130 00:08:18,836 --> 00:08:22,236 Speaker 3: And then I remember when I first moved here to 131 00:08:22,316 --> 00:08:26,076 Speaker 3: working at the US Embassy in London. I met a 132 00:08:26,156 --> 00:08:30,436 Speaker 3: Jamaican man. He said, Oh, we do something just like this, 133 00:08:30,476 --> 00:08:34,796 Speaker 3: and we call it Pardna or Pardna hand. And then 134 00:08:34,876 --> 00:08:39,196 Speaker 3: I spoke to my friend who's British Pakistani and she said, 135 00:08:39,236 --> 00:08:42,076 Speaker 3: we do this too, we call it committee. And I thought, okay, 136 00:08:42,076 --> 00:08:45,396 Speaker 3: well that's still asia interesting. Then I met someone who 137 00:08:45,476 --> 00:08:48,716 Speaker 3: was Somali and she said, we do this too, we 138 00:08:48,876 --> 00:08:53,556 Speaker 3: call it hegbud. And then I met someone who's Mexican 139 00:08:53,916 --> 00:08:57,516 Speaker 3: and said, we do this too, we call it tanda. 140 00:08:57,796 --> 00:09:01,036 Speaker 3: And so the more I sought it out, the more 141 00:09:01,076 --> 00:09:04,996 Speaker 3: I realized that in the global majority, most of us 142 00:09:04,996 --> 00:09:07,156 Speaker 3: are doing this, and we have been doing it for 143 00:09:07,276 --> 00:09:09,876 Speaker 3: generations for a thousand years. 144 00:09:10,516 --> 00:09:14,156 Speaker 2: Right, there's literally I saw a study that found evidence 145 00:09:14,156 --> 00:09:18,076 Speaker 2: of this in like Song China, which is truly like 146 00:09:18,196 --> 00:09:21,196 Speaker 2: a thousand years of mixture, one thousand, Right, So there 147 00:09:21,236 --> 00:09:25,196 Speaker 2: is this interesting question of why, right, Like, this is 148 00:09:25,236 --> 00:09:29,236 Speaker 2: a kind of technology. Right, it's like a bottom up 149 00:09:29,276 --> 00:09:32,316 Speaker 2: financial technology that I think pretty clearly has been sort 150 00:09:32,316 --> 00:09:37,196 Speaker 2: of independently invented in different places over time. Right, So, like, 151 00:09:37,876 --> 00:09:41,236 Speaker 2: what is it about it that makes people keep figuring 152 00:09:41,276 --> 00:09:42,556 Speaker 2: this out and keep doing it? 153 00:09:43,676 --> 00:09:48,596 Speaker 3: So that is something that has plagued my mind for 154 00:09:48,876 --> 00:09:53,516 Speaker 3: years now, not least because I'm building my business around it. 155 00:09:53,556 --> 00:09:58,396 Speaker 3: But yeah, one of the things that I think about 156 00:09:58,476 --> 00:10:06,236 Speaker 3: often is our different cultural attitudes towards money, but also 157 00:10:06,316 --> 00:10:11,596 Speaker 3: just society in general. And there's a I believe he's Dutch, 158 00:10:12,356 --> 00:10:18,276 Speaker 3: a man named Hirtz Hofstetter, and he had this framework, 159 00:10:18,556 --> 00:10:22,516 Speaker 3: the hofstad Is framework of culture, and where every culture 160 00:10:22,596 --> 00:10:28,796 Speaker 3: has a different flavor to it. Obviously, but some cultures 161 00:10:28,796 --> 00:10:35,116 Speaker 3: are very individualistic and some cultures are very collective. And 162 00:10:35,836 --> 00:10:41,436 Speaker 3: in the global South, in Asian countries, in African cultures, 163 00:10:41,476 --> 00:10:46,636 Speaker 3: in Latin cultures, we tend to have more collective cultures, 164 00:10:47,876 --> 00:10:52,916 Speaker 3: whereas in the West we are often more individualistic. 165 00:10:53,476 --> 00:10:56,156 Speaker 2: So there's this broad context of like, okay, a more 166 00:10:56,196 --> 00:10:58,916 Speaker 2: communal vibe leads you into this kind of thing. I mean, 167 00:10:58,956 --> 00:11:02,396 Speaker 2: I could also imagine like it's a kind of savings, right, yeah, 168 00:11:02,556 --> 00:11:04,876 Speaker 2: kind of savings. It's right there in the name. And 169 00:11:04,916 --> 00:11:06,356 Speaker 2: you can think of a lot of places in the 170 00:11:06,356 --> 00:11:09,076 Speaker 2: world where you cannot put your money in the bank, 171 00:11:09,276 --> 00:11:12,356 Speaker 2: or if you could, your money might disappear, right, Like 172 00:11:12,396 --> 00:11:14,996 Speaker 2: the idea that the that the bank is not going 173 00:11:15,076 --> 00:11:16,556 Speaker 2: to go under and that if it does, there's a 174 00:11:16,596 --> 00:11:20,436 Speaker 2: reliable government insurance. Yeah, which is in fact the case 175 00:11:20,476 --> 00:11:22,276 Speaker 2: now in the US and much of the developed world, 176 00:11:22,396 --> 00:11:24,756 Speaker 2: is obviously not the case for most of world history. 177 00:11:24,756 --> 00:11:28,356 Speaker 2: So like that seems like quite a whatever, a less 178 00:11:28,756 --> 00:11:34,196 Speaker 2: warm and fuzzy but also plausible virtue of the ROSCA. 179 00:11:34,276 --> 00:11:37,796 Speaker 3: I absolutely think this. But if we really drill down, 180 00:11:38,636 --> 00:11:42,196 Speaker 3: I mean, in the States, we have credit unions, right, 181 00:11:42,396 --> 00:11:45,716 Speaker 3: or community banks and that sort of thing, and that's 182 00:11:45,836 --> 00:11:49,476 Speaker 3: just a more macro version of a ROSCA, Right. It's 183 00:11:49,516 --> 00:11:53,036 Speaker 3: a group of people coming together with some sort of affinity. 184 00:11:53,636 --> 00:11:57,236 Speaker 3: We all live in the same area, or in Edinburgh, 185 00:11:57,276 --> 00:12:03,956 Speaker 3: there's a lovely facade of what is now a clothing store, 186 00:12:04,476 --> 00:12:07,436 Speaker 3: but it says the Laundry Workers Bank, and it was 187 00:12:07,476 --> 00:12:10,356 Speaker 3: people who worked at the laundry together that came together 188 00:12:10,876 --> 00:12:14,716 Speaker 3: to form effectively a community bank. And so it's something 189 00:12:14,756 --> 00:12:18,236 Speaker 3: we've been doing but have lost sight of over time. 190 00:12:19,036 --> 00:12:21,116 Speaker 3: But I definitely think that you're right that there's something 191 00:12:21,196 --> 00:12:25,596 Speaker 3: in trust or the lack of trust, especially if you 192 00:12:25,676 --> 00:12:28,076 Speaker 3: live in a country where maybe you do not trust 193 00:12:28,076 --> 00:12:32,236 Speaker 3: financial institutions, you do not trust your government for whatever reason. 194 00:12:33,036 --> 00:12:36,836 Speaker 3: I think that's probably why it's so prevalent in those areas, 195 00:12:36,876 --> 00:12:38,996 Speaker 3: more so than it is in the West. 196 00:12:40,516 --> 00:12:46,236 Speaker 2: Okay, so you discover the rosca and you're gonna and 197 00:12:46,276 --> 00:12:48,476 Speaker 2: then what you're gonna build a rosca app I mean, 198 00:12:48,476 --> 00:12:51,036 Speaker 2: that's basically the move at that point. 199 00:12:51,636 --> 00:12:55,356 Speaker 3: What really intrigued me about the rosca and as someone 200 00:12:55,396 --> 00:12:57,796 Speaker 3: who had seen it right with my own parents ing 201 00:12:57,956 --> 00:13:03,876 Speaker 3: and my grandparents doing it, was one it exists in 202 00:13:03,956 --> 00:13:09,116 Speaker 3: almost every culture, uh, non Western culture, I should specify. 203 00:13:09,836 --> 00:13:12,156 Speaker 3: And what was interesting to me about that is, just 204 00:13:12,316 --> 00:13:16,956 Speaker 3: like remittances and money transfer, it's something that every culture does, right. 205 00:13:16,996 --> 00:13:20,636 Speaker 3: It doesn't matter if you're sending money from like my 206 00:13:20,756 --> 00:13:24,836 Speaker 3: dad did, California to India, or to Pakistan or to 207 00:13:25,036 --> 00:13:30,196 Speaker 3: wherever in the world to Mexico. People are sending money 208 00:13:30,276 --> 00:13:33,436 Speaker 3: and so similarly, it was a behavior that was replicable 209 00:13:33,756 --> 00:13:37,996 Speaker 3: across cultures. What was very interesting to me is everyone 210 00:13:38,076 --> 00:13:39,516 Speaker 3: has their own name for it. 211 00:13:39,996 --> 00:13:42,116 Speaker 2: Yeah, give me a list. You did a few, Like, 212 00:13:42,596 --> 00:13:44,476 Speaker 2: how many can you give me? If you just go 213 00:13:44,596 --> 00:13:48,716 Speaker 2: in one breath? Oh gosh, okay, on your marks, get 214 00:13:48,796 --> 00:13:50,876 Speaker 2: set ready, go, We've. 215 00:13:50,676 --> 00:13:56,596 Speaker 3: Got Tannine Mexico Consocio in Brazil. Partner or partner Han 216 00:13:56,876 --> 00:14:03,916 Speaker 3: in Jamaica, money Box in Saint Lucia, hegbad Ayuto in Somalia, 217 00:14:04,156 --> 00:14:08,556 Speaker 3: Ajo in Nigeria or is Susu depending on your tribek 218 00:14:08,716 --> 00:14:15,636 Speaker 3: Limba in Congo, Tontine in any Francophone African country. We've 219 00:14:15,676 --> 00:14:20,716 Speaker 3: got Committee in Bangladesh and Pakistan, panlu Wagan in Philippines, 220 00:14:21,156 --> 00:14:27,756 Speaker 3: Aisan in Malaysia, Hui or Hue in China, and Taiwan 221 00:14:28,116 --> 00:14:30,916 Speaker 3: Jungam in South Korea. 222 00:14:31,276 --> 00:14:34,596 Speaker 2: The list goes on very good. And I can say 223 00:14:34,636 --> 00:14:37,476 Speaker 2: I'm talking about video you were not reading now, you 224 00:14:37,516 --> 00:14:39,716 Speaker 2: were looking like up at the ceiling. That was truly 225 00:14:39,756 --> 00:14:40,196 Speaker 2: off the top. 226 00:14:40,356 --> 00:14:42,316 Speaker 3: Yes, off the top of my head. It's my party 227 00:14:42,356 --> 00:14:45,876 Speaker 3: trick now, So I mean people will be like, I'm 228 00:14:45,876 --> 00:14:48,156 Speaker 3: from here, what is it called? And I have to 229 00:14:48,196 --> 00:14:51,556 Speaker 3: try and figure it out. And then more importantly, and 230 00:14:51,796 --> 00:14:54,876 Speaker 3: going back to the original problem that we were discussing, 231 00:14:55,556 --> 00:15:02,476 Speaker 3: is people are moving huge sums of money. Depending on 232 00:15:02,556 --> 00:15:05,356 Speaker 3: who you speak to, there's one startup that's done the 233 00:15:05,396 --> 00:15:08,556 Speaker 3: math and they think globally there's three hundred billion dollars 234 00:15:08,636 --> 00:15:15,436 Speaker 3: moving through Rosco's globally. But it's something that people take 235 00:15:15,476 --> 00:15:18,076 Speaker 3: with them, especially immigrant communities when they move to a 236 00:15:18,116 --> 00:15:21,876 Speaker 3: new place. Because they are new, they know their community. 237 00:15:21,916 --> 00:15:25,036 Speaker 3: They seek out their community first, they might join the 238 00:15:25,116 --> 00:15:29,316 Speaker 3: community circle or club as we might call it. And 239 00:15:29,996 --> 00:15:34,036 Speaker 3: what is fascinating and so valuable about this is if 240 00:15:34,036 --> 00:15:37,316 Speaker 3: someone is putting in one hundred dollars or one hundred 241 00:15:37,356 --> 00:15:39,956 Speaker 3: pounds or one hundred euros every month and they're paying 242 00:15:39,996 --> 00:15:44,836 Speaker 3: in on time, that's actually really great financial behavior. Right. 243 00:15:45,476 --> 00:15:46,956 Speaker 3: It tells me you're good for the money. 244 00:15:47,276 --> 00:15:50,996 Speaker 2: Yes, that that's that's a good credit right. I mean fundamentally, 245 00:15:51,956 --> 00:15:54,956 Speaker 2: you you select people. When your grandmother was doing this 246 00:15:55,076 --> 00:15:57,316 Speaker 2: choosing people for her club, she had a credit score 247 00:15:57,436 --> 00:15:59,716 Speaker 2: in her mind, right, Like exactly, you are. You are 248 00:15:59,796 --> 00:16:02,596 Speaker 2: just reducing trust to the neighborhood. You're not going to 249 00:16:02,676 --> 00:16:07,636 Speaker 2: invite somebody who's gonna get a thousand bucks right now 250 00:16:07,756 --> 00:16:10,076 Speaker 2: and pay you back a thousand bucks over the next year. 251 00:16:10,476 --> 00:16:12,316 Speaker 2: You're not going to invite them if they are sketchy. 252 00:16:12,436 --> 00:16:16,316 Speaker 3: No. Absolutely, And and some of my favorite interactions I 253 00:16:16,396 --> 00:16:20,276 Speaker 3: speak French, and so where I live in London is 254 00:16:20,316 --> 00:16:24,196 Speaker 3: called Lewisham and there's a lot of West African folks here, 255 00:16:24,596 --> 00:16:28,516 Speaker 3: a lot of Francophone West Africans, and there's a hair 256 00:16:28,596 --> 00:16:30,756 Speaker 3: salon where I go to get my eyebrows done. There's 257 00:16:30,796 --> 00:16:33,716 Speaker 3: a lovely Sri Lankan woman that does that. But there 258 00:16:33,756 --> 00:16:39,196 Speaker 3: are these Ivorian women doing braiding hair and I started 259 00:16:39,236 --> 00:16:42,316 Speaker 3: speaking to them about it, and they're speaking in French, 260 00:16:42,316 --> 00:16:44,356 Speaker 3: and I don't think they realize that I speak French. 261 00:16:45,476 --> 00:16:49,996 Speaker 3: And they were basically just talking shit about the various people. 262 00:16:50,356 --> 00:16:52,956 Speaker 3: And they're like, we don't like so and so she 263 00:16:53,076 --> 00:16:55,836 Speaker 3: never pays in on time, she's not allowed into are 264 00:16:55,876 --> 00:17:00,036 Speaker 3: tol tine as they call it in Francophone Africa, and 265 00:17:00,116 --> 00:17:04,116 Speaker 3: so people are underwriting their community. 266 00:17:03,596 --> 00:17:09,516 Speaker 2: That credit score, gossip at the salon. 267 00:17:08,076 --> 00:17:10,516 Speaker 3: It's the original, and it's like, we know that she 268 00:17:10,556 --> 00:17:12,676 Speaker 3: doesn't pay on time, she doesn't go to church, she's 269 00:17:12,716 --> 00:17:15,436 Speaker 3: not going to be there whatever. But these are things 270 00:17:15,436 --> 00:17:18,076 Speaker 3: that people have been using to underwrite each other for 271 00:17:19,076 --> 00:17:20,556 Speaker 3: thousand years plus. 272 00:17:20,836 --> 00:17:23,436 Speaker 2: Right, So okay, well you've got the thousand years. It's 273 00:17:23,516 --> 00:17:26,516 Speaker 2: time for you to start your company in this narrative. Now, 274 00:17:26,596 --> 00:17:28,996 Speaker 2: how do you start a company, you know, around this idea, 275 00:17:28,996 --> 00:17:29,836 Speaker 2: around this practice. 276 00:17:31,796 --> 00:17:35,476 Speaker 3: Not easily, I'll tell you that much. I think the 277 00:17:35,596 --> 00:17:40,156 Speaker 3: interesting thing is I have worked in the fintech industry 278 00:17:40,236 --> 00:17:44,956 Speaker 3: financial technology for so long now, and it never occurred 279 00:17:44,956 --> 00:17:47,916 Speaker 3: to me that I would be a founder myself or 280 00:17:48,036 --> 00:17:53,196 Speaker 3: the entrepreneur in charge. I'm very good at building things, 281 00:17:53,316 --> 00:17:57,436 Speaker 3: and I've got a lot of pleasure out of building 282 00:17:57,516 --> 00:18:01,476 Speaker 3: interesting products. And so I built a no code app 283 00:18:02,116 --> 00:18:06,156 Speaker 3: and I said, let's just see if this thing works. 284 00:18:06,796 --> 00:18:11,996 Speaker 3: And so I invited fifty women. I do a lot 285 00:18:11,996 --> 00:18:16,876 Speaker 3: of work with various migrant groups and specifically women, and 286 00:18:17,116 --> 00:18:21,556 Speaker 3: invited them to try this web app. And what we 287 00:18:21,676 --> 00:18:25,276 Speaker 3: found was there was one hundred percent payment right. Everyone 288 00:18:25,356 --> 00:18:29,716 Speaker 3: paid on time, and people said to us, this is great. 289 00:18:30,116 --> 00:18:32,316 Speaker 3: I didn't have to go get cash out. I didn't 290 00:18:32,316 --> 00:18:35,516 Speaker 3: have to send my child with the cash down to 291 00:18:35,596 --> 00:18:38,796 Speaker 3: the auntie's house for collection. It was great, like it 292 00:18:38,876 --> 00:18:40,756 Speaker 3: was collected and it was sent out to me when 293 00:18:40,796 --> 00:18:43,916 Speaker 3: it was time to receive the money. And so now 294 00:18:43,956 --> 00:18:45,636 Speaker 3: what do I do, because I have to go and 295 00:18:45,676 --> 00:18:50,116 Speaker 3: get regulated. I can't just be, you know, moving large 296 00:18:50,116 --> 00:18:53,836 Speaker 3: sums of money around and not be regulated. And so 297 00:18:54,196 --> 00:18:58,036 Speaker 3: I started the process of explaining to the Financial Conduct 298 00:18:58,076 --> 00:19:02,956 Speaker 3: Authority what EROSCA is and why it exists. And that 299 00:19:03,116 --> 00:19:07,196 Speaker 3: was actually very very challenging because there aren't many people 300 00:19:07,236 --> 00:19:11,676 Speaker 3: that looked like me that work in the Innovation Department 301 00:19:11,676 --> 00:19:15,876 Speaker 3: of the FCA, right, And if you're you know, a 302 00:19:15,956 --> 00:19:19,116 Speaker 3: native born, white British person, perhaps you've never come across 303 00:19:19,156 --> 00:19:22,996 Speaker 3: this before and you don't understand why anyone would engage 304 00:19:22,996 --> 00:19:25,836 Speaker 3: in this, and you start to ask questions like, well, 305 00:19:25,876 --> 00:19:28,116 Speaker 3: it feels a little bit like peer to peer lending, 306 00:19:28,516 --> 00:19:30,756 Speaker 3: where it feels a little bit like crowdfunding. 307 00:19:31,636 --> 00:19:34,076 Speaker 2: So it does feel a little bit like peer to 308 00:19:34,116 --> 00:19:36,436 Speaker 2: peer lending. That is not an That is not an 309 00:19:36,876 --> 00:19:38,876 Speaker 2: unreasonable thought, it's not at all. 310 00:19:38,916 --> 00:19:42,476 Speaker 3: And even even crowdfunding, you could argue that, yeah, actually, 311 00:19:42,476 --> 00:19:46,516 Speaker 3: in a way, it is crowdfunding and it rotates fine. 312 00:19:46,716 --> 00:19:50,156 Speaker 3: So we really had to make the case that this 313 00:19:50,396 --> 00:19:54,796 Speaker 3: is neither peer to peer lending nor crowdfunding, but its 314 00:19:54,836 --> 00:19:58,956 Speaker 3: own special thing. Then I had to go and face 315 00:20:00,116 --> 00:20:03,636 Speaker 3: the venture capital industry, and that was probably the most 316 00:20:03,676 --> 00:20:06,996 Speaker 3: daunting thing I've ever done to this day. Still. I'm 317 00:20:07,036 --> 00:20:10,636 Speaker 3: from the Silicon Valley, and you know, I grew down 318 00:20:10,716 --> 00:20:16,076 Speaker 3: the street from Apple and you know there, I mean, 319 00:20:16,276 --> 00:20:18,636 Speaker 3: venture capital firms are a dime a dozen in the 320 00:20:18,676 --> 00:20:24,316 Speaker 3: Silicon Valley. But it's very different just driving past and 321 00:20:24,356 --> 00:20:28,356 Speaker 3: then going into actually pitch to these folks to say 322 00:20:28,756 --> 00:20:30,916 Speaker 3: here's this problem that I want to solve, here's why 323 00:20:30,956 --> 00:20:32,996 Speaker 3: I want to do it, and here's why you should 324 00:20:33,036 --> 00:20:37,196 Speaker 3: give me a million pounds to do it. Right. But 325 00:20:37,316 --> 00:20:41,196 Speaker 3: I did that and it was very very daunting, very 326 00:20:41,316 --> 00:20:44,316 Speaker 3: very difficult. But it was one of those things where 327 00:20:44,836 --> 00:20:47,836 Speaker 3: I wouldn't be able to bootstrap, as we say, kind 328 00:20:47,836 --> 00:20:50,316 Speaker 3: of use my own money to fund this business, because 329 00:20:50,996 --> 00:20:53,916 Speaker 3: of course we're building a tech product and it's regulated 330 00:20:54,436 --> 00:20:57,036 Speaker 3: and so it just requires a little bit more of 331 00:20:57,036 --> 00:21:01,436 Speaker 3: that upfront investment. And then from there we were off 332 00:21:01,436 --> 00:21:02,156 Speaker 3: to the races. 333 00:21:06,316 --> 00:21:18,236 Speaker 1: We'll be back in just a minute. 334 00:21:18,516 --> 00:21:21,716 Speaker 2: So how does it work? What's the thing you have now? 335 00:21:21,756 --> 00:21:22,396 Speaker 2: And how does it work? 336 00:21:22,516 --> 00:21:27,036 Speaker 3: Yeah, So the Bloom app is pretty straightforward. It's an 337 00:21:27,076 --> 00:21:30,396 Speaker 3: app where you download it, you register, you go through 338 00:21:30,756 --> 00:21:34,236 Speaker 3: Know your Customer or KYC, so we ask you for 339 00:21:34,276 --> 00:21:37,396 Speaker 3: a selfie and a picture of your ID, and from 340 00:21:37,396 --> 00:21:41,316 Speaker 3: there we do all these checks in the background, make 341 00:21:41,356 --> 00:21:43,876 Speaker 3: sure you are who you say you are, and then 342 00:21:44,196 --> 00:21:46,876 Speaker 3: you go to the homepage and you're able to either 343 00:21:47,516 --> 00:21:50,956 Speaker 3: create a circle, so we call them Bloom circles to 344 00:21:51,156 --> 00:21:55,236 Speaker 3: homogenize the name across cultures. You can either create your 345 00:21:55,236 --> 00:21:58,236 Speaker 3: own circle and choose how much you want to put 346 00:21:58,316 --> 00:22:01,836 Speaker 3: in how often, so you can do it weekly, bi 347 00:22:01,876 --> 00:22:06,076 Speaker 3: weekly or monthly, although monthly is the most popular cadence. 348 00:22:06,796 --> 00:22:09,876 Speaker 3: You choose how much, how many people, and then your 349 00:22:09,956 --> 00:22:13,116 Speaker 3: start date and from there you can share your circle 350 00:22:13,996 --> 00:22:16,836 Speaker 3: and say here's the code, join my circle and in 351 00:22:16,836 --> 00:22:20,236 Speaker 3: a private circle. That means you are in full control. 352 00:22:20,276 --> 00:22:24,436 Speaker 3: And this is the most faithful reproduction I guess of 353 00:22:25,396 --> 00:22:27,996 Speaker 3: what we have done for a thousand years. So it 354 00:22:28,036 --> 00:22:30,516 Speaker 3: can be my friends and family, it can be the 355 00:22:30,516 --> 00:22:32,116 Speaker 3: people at the mosque, whoever, right. 356 00:22:32,836 --> 00:22:36,236 Speaker 2: So in this case, this is just replacing like having 357 00:22:36,276 --> 00:22:40,076 Speaker 2: to take cash to whoever every month, correct with an 358 00:22:40,116 --> 00:22:43,756 Speaker 2: automated system. And so how does the money actually flow? 359 00:22:43,916 --> 00:22:46,156 Speaker 2: Like does everybody have to have a bank account? Are 360 00:22:46,196 --> 00:22:46,876 Speaker 2: you a bank? 361 00:22:47,276 --> 00:22:52,476 Speaker 3: So everyone has to have their own UK based bank 362 00:22:52,476 --> 00:22:55,596 Speaker 3: account because we're based in the UK. And then they 363 00:22:55,596 --> 00:22:58,756 Speaker 3: have to have a UK issue debit card, so we 364 00:22:58,796 --> 00:23:04,676 Speaker 3: don't let people use credit for this particular financial activity. 365 00:23:05,116 --> 00:23:07,036 Speaker 3: But what they do is they connect their debit card 366 00:23:07,516 --> 00:23:11,436 Speaker 3: and the money is automatic collected on the set date 367 00:23:11,556 --> 00:23:14,876 Speaker 3: each month or whatever the cadence is, and then we 368 00:23:14,916 --> 00:23:17,156 Speaker 3: take your bank details and when it's your turn to 369 00:23:17,196 --> 00:23:21,196 Speaker 3: receive your payout. We send that straight into your bank account. 370 00:23:21,276 --> 00:23:23,636 Speaker 2: So a lot of you're basically the rails. 371 00:23:23,716 --> 00:23:26,516 Speaker 3: You're the pipe exactly. We are the pipes. We orchestrate 372 00:23:26,516 --> 00:23:29,556 Speaker 3: the payments for you and take that stress out of 373 00:23:30,076 --> 00:23:33,796 Speaker 3: you know, following up and trying to figure out where 374 00:23:33,836 --> 00:23:35,436 Speaker 3: is the money and someone says, oh, I need to 375 00:23:35,436 --> 00:23:37,476 Speaker 3: get cash out or all those drama. 376 00:23:37,156 --> 00:23:40,156 Speaker 2: That comes with that, and what do you charge? 377 00:23:40,276 --> 00:23:43,796 Speaker 3: So we try a transaction fee of four percent and 378 00:23:43,836 --> 00:23:46,996 Speaker 3: that allows us to safely process and manage your account 379 00:23:47,796 --> 00:23:49,556 Speaker 3: with a little bit of margin for us to be 380 00:23:49,556 --> 00:23:52,556 Speaker 3: able to put back into our business of course. But 381 00:23:52,716 --> 00:23:56,116 Speaker 3: what is really interesting is when you're in the Bloom circles, 382 00:23:56,436 --> 00:23:59,716 Speaker 3: you have the option to do a private circle, but 383 00:24:00,476 --> 00:24:03,316 Speaker 3: most of our volume is actually through what we call 384 00:24:03,396 --> 00:24:08,276 Speaker 3: community or public circles. And this is where people will 385 00:24:08,396 --> 00:24:13,716 Speaker 3: join fleet strangers in a circle. And that has been 386 00:24:13,836 --> 00:24:16,036 Speaker 3: fascinating to me because as someone that. 387 00:24:16,116 --> 00:24:18,116 Speaker 2: Is wild, that's most of your business. 388 00:24:18,156 --> 00:24:21,796 Speaker 3: I would say ninety five percent of our circles are 389 00:24:22,916 --> 00:24:25,916 Speaker 3: pure strangers coming together in circles. 390 00:24:26,236 --> 00:24:30,676 Speaker 2: Is it like a well, what happens if somebody gets 391 00:24:30,676 --> 00:24:33,036 Speaker 2: all the money the first month and then bails and that. 392 00:24:33,116 --> 00:24:37,316 Speaker 3: Is exactly it. So we have had bad actors. But 393 00:24:37,396 --> 00:24:40,956 Speaker 3: you know what is fascinating is we've had people take 394 00:24:40,996 --> 00:24:45,356 Speaker 3: the money and then run, and in this instance that 395 00:24:45,396 --> 00:24:48,436 Speaker 3: will mean they'll stop topping up their account, or they'll 396 00:24:48,796 --> 00:24:52,516 Speaker 3: cancel their card or whatever. But what is very fascinating 397 00:24:52,636 --> 00:24:55,996 Speaker 3: is the people that have cut and run end up 398 00:24:56,036 --> 00:24:59,396 Speaker 3: coming back and we've been made whole. They have paid 399 00:24:59,476 --> 00:25:03,676 Speaker 3: us back for that money because they realize if they 400 00:25:03,716 --> 00:25:07,436 Speaker 3: want to join a subsequent circle, there's no way that 401 00:25:07,436 --> 00:25:09,876 Speaker 3: we're going to let them onto our platform because they 402 00:25:09,876 --> 00:25:11,076 Speaker 3: screwed everyone else over. 403 00:25:11,756 --> 00:25:14,636 Speaker 2: I mean I wouldn't let them back even if they asked, 404 00:25:14,916 --> 00:25:16,596 Speaker 2: if they cut it round and then said can I 405 00:25:16,636 --> 00:25:19,156 Speaker 2: come back? I don't think you should say yes. 406 00:25:19,396 --> 00:25:22,916 Speaker 3: So we've not let anyone back in what we have 407 00:25:23,036 --> 00:25:27,036 Speaker 3: a rehabilitation program where people can start to like pay 408 00:25:27,076 --> 00:25:29,956 Speaker 3: back smaller sums because there. 409 00:25:29,916 --> 00:25:31,356 Speaker 2: Is or you can let them join, but they're the 410 00:25:31,356 --> 00:25:33,476 Speaker 2: ones who get paid last in the cycle. I guess 411 00:25:33,516 --> 00:25:36,716 Speaker 2: that's insurance. Wait, let me ask just to be clear, like, 412 00:25:37,436 --> 00:25:39,836 Speaker 2: is there any kind of insurance Like if somebody takes 413 00:25:39,836 --> 00:25:42,836 Speaker 2: all the money the first month and then splits, are 414 00:25:42,836 --> 00:25:44,676 Speaker 2: the other people in the circle just screwed or is 415 00:25:44,676 --> 00:25:46,116 Speaker 2: there some kind of insurance present. 416 00:25:46,156 --> 00:25:49,516 Speaker 3: We don't have insurance. And we make that very clear with. 417 00:25:49,876 --> 00:25:52,596 Speaker 2: Is it a contract, like is the person committing fraud 418 00:25:52,676 --> 00:25:54,316 Speaker 2: or anything if they take the money and bail, are 419 00:25:54,316 --> 00:25:55,316 Speaker 2: they just a bad person? 420 00:25:55,396 --> 00:25:59,636 Speaker 3: So well, both there is a contract and so they 421 00:25:59,796 --> 00:26:03,196 Speaker 3: actually have to sign it. And that has really come 422 00:26:03,836 --> 00:26:08,116 Speaker 3: in handy and it says a lot about signatures in 423 00:26:08,196 --> 00:26:10,836 Speaker 3: today's digital world to me. 424 00:26:11,396 --> 00:26:14,316 Speaker 2: Because people think it means something even though it actually doesn't. 425 00:26:14,356 --> 00:26:16,756 Speaker 2: Is that the secret of the contract, It truly is. 426 00:26:16,836 --> 00:26:20,796 Speaker 3: Because first we tried doing biometrics, so people would do 427 00:26:20,876 --> 00:26:23,516 Speaker 3: a selfie or you know, use face ID, or they 428 00:26:23,516 --> 00:26:27,516 Speaker 3: would do their touch, you know, thumbprint, and they would say, oh, well, 429 00:26:27,596 --> 00:26:30,276 Speaker 3: I didn't sign anything. That's not me signing, even though 430 00:26:30,276 --> 00:26:33,516 Speaker 3: they've used their biometric And so we actually have a 431 00:26:33,596 --> 00:26:36,276 Speaker 3: step now where you have to sign with your finger. 432 00:26:37,636 --> 00:26:41,916 Speaker 3: You're a signature like on your phone phone And it 433 00:26:41,956 --> 00:26:44,956 Speaker 3: has really changed people's perception of like, oh, I am 434 00:26:44,996 --> 00:26:48,916 Speaker 3: actually entering into an agreement now and I'm going to 435 00:26:49,196 --> 00:26:52,596 Speaker 3: pay this money in And so we do not make 436 00:26:52,636 --> 00:26:54,756 Speaker 3: people whole, and we make that very clearer in our 437 00:26:54,836 --> 00:26:58,836 Speaker 3: terms and conditions when people are joining circles, and yet 438 00:26:59,356 --> 00:27:04,716 Speaker 3: we have a ninety eight percent payment rate, and so 439 00:27:05,156 --> 00:27:09,556 Speaker 3: very rarely are people cutting and running, and even if 440 00:27:09,596 --> 00:27:12,476 Speaker 3: they do, they tend to come back and kind of 441 00:27:12,476 --> 00:27:15,316 Speaker 3: feel guilty about it. And I think that says something 442 00:27:15,396 --> 00:27:18,396 Speaker 3: about this social cohesion, right. 443 00:27:18,716 --> 00:27:20,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, And just to be clear, this is people who 444 00:27:20,916 --> 00:27:23,076 Speaker 2: are just randomly assigned to a circle. 445 00:27:23,196 --> 00:27:23,516 Speaker 3: Correct. 446 00:27:23,836 --> 00:27:26,116 Speaker 2: They don't know the other people, they're not from the 447 00:27:26,116 --> 00:27:29,876 Speaker 2: same community, they don't live in the same neighborhood, whatever, exactly. 448 00:27:30,196 --> 00:27:32,996 Speaker 2: That's really interesting. I guess it's hardening in a way. 449 00:27:33,156 --> 00:27:35,996 Speaker 2: I think I would have predicted worse behavior. Yeah, I 450 00:27:36,036 --> 00:27:37,796 Speaker 2: think that's good news, right in. 451 00:27:37,716 --> 00:27:42,276 Speaker 3: Today's society where you're you're very skeptical of humanity and 452 00:27:42,796 --> 00:27:47,316 Speaker 3: and you're looking for the good but expecting the worst, perhaps. 453 00:27:47,396 --> 00:27:52,716 Speaker 2: Especially in a you know, anonymized, distant, digitized way exactly. 454 00:27:53,076 --> 00:27:55,036 Speaker 3: And I think though, one of the things that kind 455 00:27:55,076 --> 00:27:58,116 Speaker 3: of helps us is we both we have a care 456 00:27:58,236 --> 00:28:00,636 Speaker 3: and a stick. So what we've been doing is actually 457 00:28:00,676 --> 00:28:03,676 Speaker 3: taking this data that we were collecting. Let's see that you, 458 00:28:03,796 --> 00:28:06,756 Speaker 3: Jacob have paid in every month on time. We are 459 00:28:06,756 --> 00:28:10,556 Speaker 3: building our own underwriting algorithm and saying Jacob's good for 460 00:28:10,596 --> 00:28:13,716 Speaker 3: the money. This is fantastic so that we can eventually 461 00:28:13,716 --> 00:28:17,156 Speaker 3: go into lending and say, uh huh, hey, Jacob, you've 462 00:28:17,156 --> 00:28:20,476 Speaker 3: got a perfect bloom credit score. We're going to lend 463 00:28:20,476 --> 00:28:21,316 Speaker 3: to you now. 464 00:28:21,276 --> 00:28:23,596 Speaker 2: In the way that so far started out doing just 465 00:28:23,676 --> 00:28:26,636 Speaker 2: this very narrow like, oh, we'll lend money from alumni 466 00:28:26,716 --> 00:28:28,876 Speaker 2: to college students. And now they're just like a giant 467 00:28:28,916 --> 00:28:32,316 Speaker 2: financial institution. You're that, but for immigrants exactly that. 468 00:28:32,636 --> 00:28:36,996 Speaker 3: And so what we keep seeing is that people want 469 00:28:37,356 --> 00:28:38,676 Speaker 3: to have a good record. 470 00:28:38,916 --> 00:28:42,636 Speaker 2: Uh huh, you're their credit score. You're the immigrant credits. 471 00:28:42,676 --> 00:28:46,236 Speaker 3: We're the immigrant credit score. And we have the largest 472 00:28:46,276 --> 00:28:49,716 Speaker 3: data set in the UK on immigrant communities and their 473 00:28:49,756 --> 00:28:51,756 Speaker 3: financial behavior at present. 474 00:28:51,836 --> 00:28:53,316 Speaker 2: How big is it? How big is it? 475 00:28:53,396 --> 00:28:58,156 Speaker 3: So we're still tiny, We're thirteen thousand customers. We're very 476 00:28:58,236 --> 00:29:01,476 Speaker 3: very early stage. But the very interesting thing is no 477 00:29:01,516 --> 00:29:03,556 Speaker 3: one else has thought to do this before. 478 00:29:04,036 --> 00:29:06,476 Speaker 2: And by the way, how many people do you reject 479 00:29:06,556 --> 00:29:09,116 Speaker 2: up front? How much of your you know, high payment 480 00:29:09,316 --> 00:29:12,796 Speaker 2: rate comes from figuring out beforehand who do not let in? 481 00:29:13,116 --> 00:29:18,116 Speaker 3: Usually they wouldn't even have made it to be able 482 00:29:18,116 --> 00:29:20,156 Speaker 3: to join a circle. Like if there's someone that has 483 00:29:20,156 --> 00:29:23,516 Speaker 3: fraudulent behavior, all of those backend checks that we do 484 00:29:23,636 --> 00:29:25,356 Speaker 3: to make sure you are who you say you are 485 00:29:25,916 --> 00:29:28,516 Speaker 3: will usually have already declined to even offer you an 486 00:29:28,556 --> 00:29:29,676 Speaker 3: account in the first place. 487 00:29:30,596 --> 00:29:31,596 Speaker 2: How often does that happen? 488 00:29:33,316 --> 00:29:35,716 Speaker 3: Maybe one percent of the time. I mean that is 489 00:29:35,756 --> 00:29:39,676 Speaker 3: the beauty of kind of I think we are that 490 00:29:39,836 --> 00:29:43,996 Speaker 3: bridge from the informal financial system into the formal financial 491 00:29:44,036 --> 00:29:46,476 Speaker 3: system because we can kind of take all of this 492 00:29:47,076 --> 00:29:51,236 Speaker 3: other data access around us, and you know, you might 493 00:29:51,276 --> 00:29:54,196 Speaker 3: have a record good or bad elsewhere, but we can 494 00:29:54,196 --> 00:29:57,956 Speaker 3: connect those dots and then ultimately our goal is to 495 00:29:58,076 --> 00:30:00,876 Speaker 3: work with you know, the transunions, the experience the echo 496 00:30:00,876 --> 00:30:03,436 Speaker 3: fax is to actually help people build their credit scores 497 00:30:04,116 --> 00:30:08,316 Speaker 3: using bloom circles. Though it's not actually a credit product, 498 00:30:09,276 --> 00:30:14,196 Speaker 3: is a behavior that people are already doing and we're 499 00:30:14,276 --> 00:30:17,836 Speaker 3: just formalizing it and digitizing it, and so it's something 500 00:30:17,876 --> 00:30:22,756 Speaker 3: that longer term will actually show us more valuable insights 501 00:30:22,756 --> 00:30:24,716 Speaker 3: into the financial behavior of our customers. 502 00:30:26,196 --> 00:30:28,276 Speaker 2: What was something you tried that didn't work. 503 00:30:29,196 --> 00:30:33,836 Speaker 3: I'll be honest, it's the private circles. When we first launched, 504 00:30:33,956 --> 00:30:37,796 Speaker 3: we launched with private circles, and you know, in the 505 00:30:37,836 --> 00:30:40,516 Speaker 3: startup land, they say build it and they will come 506 00:30:41,636 --> 00:30:44,916 Speaker 3: so I was like, great, here it is the apps 507 00:30:44,956 --> 00:30:50,116 Speaker 3: out were regulated, let's go, and no one was transacting. 508 00:30:51,076 --> 00:30:53,996 Speaker 3: It was I felt like I was running into a 509 00:30:54,036 --> 00:30:57,756 Speaker 3: brick wall, like, come on, why isn't anyone moving money? 510 00:30:58,476 --> 00:31:00,716 Speaker 3: Build it and they will come. And they were creating accounts, 511 00:31:00,716 --> 00:31:03,316 Speaker 3: and they were registering and connecting their debit cards, but 512 00:31:03,356 --> 00:31:08,676 Speaker 3: they weren't joining or creating circles. And I started to 513 00:31:08,716 --> 00:31:12,396 Speaker 3: speak to people and just call customers up or email 514 00:31:12,436 --> 00:31:15,196 Speaker 3: them and say, you know, we see you've registered. What's 515 00:31:15,276 --> 00:31:18,556 Speaker 3: keeping you from going the next step and actually joining 516 00:31:18,636 --> 00:31:22,116 Speaker 3: a circle. And we heard a lot of excuses. We 517 00:31:22,196 --> 00:31:26,276 Speaker 3: heard I'm in the circle right now, and it you know, 518 00:31:26,316 --> 00:31:28,316 Speaker 3: it's a cash one and it will end in a 519 00:31:28,356 --> 00:31:31,396 Speaker 3: few months and I'll join a bloom one then, or 520 00:31:32,076 --> 00:31:34,196 Speaker 3: I'm going to join a bloom one at the start 521 00:31:34,236 --> 00:31:35,756 Speaker 3: of the year, because I always do one at the 522 00:31:35,756 --> 00:31:37,956 Speaker 3: beginning of the year, So some of it was timing. 523 00:31:38,876 --> 00:31:43,516 Speaker 3: But the most common response that we got was I 524 00:31:43,556 --> 00:31:44,796 Speaker 3: don't have enough friends. 525 00:31:46,236 --> 00:31:46,676 Speaker 2: Huh. 526 00:31:46,716 --> 00:31:49,756 Speaker 3: And that was so so interesting to me because I 527 00:31:50,356 --> 00:31:51,756 Speaker 3: pushed them on that what does that mean? What do 528 00:31:51,796 --> 00:31:54,276 Speaker 3: you mean you don't have enough friends? And what they 529 00:31:54,316 --> 00:31:57,836 Speaker 3: meant is I don't have enough people that can match 530 00:31:57,876 --> 00:32:00,476 Speaker 3: the financial obligation of what I want to put in 531 00:32:00,476 --> 00:32:03,916 Speaker 3: to my circle. So they might say, you know, I 532 00:32:03,956 --> 00:32:05,876 Speaker 3: want to put one hundred pounds a month in, but 533 00:32:05,916 --> 00:32:10,756 Speaker 3: my sister can only afford to do fifty. That's not 534 00:32:10,916 --> 00:32:12,356 Speaker 3: enough for me. I want to be able to do 535 00:32:12,396 --> 00:32:15,196 Speaker 3: it with six people and have six hundred pounds at 536 00:32:15,196 --> 00:32:17,876 Speaker 3: the end of it to make it really worth my while, right, 537 00:32:17,996 --> 00:32:21,956 Speaker 3: instead of maybe three hundred pounds. And I kept hearing 538 00:32:21,996 --> 00:32:24,316 Speaker 3: this over and over and over. I heard a lot 539 00:32:24,356 --> 00:32:27,716 Speaker 3: of people say, I don't want to be in a 540 00:32:27,716 --> 00:32:30,436 Speaker 3: circle with my friends and family because I don't want 541 00:32:30,436 --> 00:32:31,276 Speaker 3: them to know. 542 00:32:32,076 --> 00:32:34,156 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, yeah, right, I don't want them to know. 543 00:32:34,236 --> 00:32:36,476 Speaker 2: That's interesting, and it was fascinating. I don't want them 544 00:32:36,516 --> 00:32:38,756 Speaker 2: to know that I'm going to get one thousand pounds 545 00:32:38,756 --> 00:32:41,436 Speaker 2: one month, because that'll exactly And. 546 00:32:41,956 --> 00:32:46,076 Speaker 3: One of our team members, Asha, she comes from an 547 00:32:46,196 --> 00:32:50,756 Speaker 3: usher Yemeny family, and she was joking like, I don't 548 00:32:50,756 --> 00:32:54,036 Speaker 3: want them knowing my business because you know, if they 549 00:32:54,116 --> 00:32:56,516 Speaker 3: know how much disposable income I have, they're going to 550 00:32:56,636 --> 00:32:59,796 Speaker 3: pressure me to send more money home. And that was 551 00:32:59,876 --> 00:33:00,636 Speaker 3: fascinating to me. 552 00:33:00,676 --> 00:33:02,876 Speaker 2: It's kind of that's really interesting. Some of it was 553 00:33:03,436 --> 00:33:07,476 Speaker 2: just my anonymized finess finance. Right, this is like, no, no, 554 00:33:07,516 --> 00:33:10,636 Speaker 2: I don't want community, I just want findance. 555 00:33:10,676 --> 00:33:14,116 Speaker 3: I just want finance. I want culturally resonant. And I 556 00:33:14,236 --> 00:33:17,396 Speaker 3: you know, it's something we understand and the behavior is done. 557 00:33:17,556 --> 00:33:19,876 Speaker 2: But I actually but it is kind of an anti 558 00:33:19,996 --> 00:33:23,276 Speaker 2: communal vibe. Right, It's like, I want my business to 559 00:33:23,316 --> 00:33:23,956 Speaker 2: be my business. 560 00:33:23,956 --> 00:33:28,396 Speaker 3: Paradoxically exactly that, And nowadays it's fascinating people that join 561 00:33:29,596 --> 00:33:33,236 Speaker 3: public circles. Oftentimes we have one person that will then 562 00:33:34,316 --> 00:33:36,756 Speaker 3: start and they'll become a node and create their private 563 00:33:36,756 --> 00:33:40,036 Speaker 3: circle and bring in their group of family. And that 564 00:33:40,156 --> 00:33:43,796 Speaker 3: tells us that that person probably was seeing if they 565 00:33:43,836 --> 00:33:45,636 Speaker 3: could trust us and if the money was going to 566 00:33:45,716 --> 00:33:48,156 Speaker 3: end up where it was supposed to before bringing in 567 00:33:48,196 --> 00:33:51,676 Speaker 3: their social group. So it was one of those things 568 00:33:51,716 --> 00:33:54,756 Speaker 3: where we launched with it and yeah, it's it didn't 569 00:33:55,036 --> 00:33:59,116 Speaker 3: just go gangbusters, but it's it taught us a lot 570 00:33:59,196 --> 00:34:03,956 Speaker 3: about the underlying behavior of our community. One of the 571 00:34:03,996 --> 00:34:06,676 Speaker 3: things that we found over and over again when we 572 00:34:06,716 --> 00:34:09,316 Speaker 3: spoke to customers is Okay, I have this money now 573 00:34:09,316 --> 00:34:11,316 Speaker 3: and I don't know what to do with it, so 574 00:34:12,716 --> 00:34:15,196 Speaker 3: I end up sending more home and it ends up 575 00:34:15,236 --> 00:34:18,756 Speaker 3: being like a bonus for everyone back home, or I 576 00:34:18,876 --> 00:34:22,236 Speaker 3: end up buying something that ends up being useless and 577 00:34:22,276 --> 00:34:25,556 Speaker 3: not something that I actually need, and it's a waste 578 00:34:25,556 --> 00:34:28,156 Speaker 3: of money. So I want to know where I should 579 00:34:28,196 --> 00:34:31,436 Speaker 3: put this money. And so now with technology, what we 580 00:34:31,476 --> 00:34:34,476 Speaker 3: can do is say, hey, Jacob, you received five hundred pounds, 581 00:34:35,196 --> 00:34:37,236 Speaker 3: why don't you put half of that into a money 582 00:34:37,236 --> 00:34:40,676 Speaker 3: market fund and actually grow your money? Why don't you 583 00:34:40,716 --> 00:34:44,196 Speaker 3: put it into a pension pot and again have your 584 00:34:44,236 --> 00:34:45,356 Speaker 3: money work for you. 585 00:34:45,716 --> 00:34:48,116 Speaker 2: And the people are right there in your app when 586 00:34:48,156 --> 00:34:50,076 Speaker 2: they get the money right like that. 587 00:34:50,676 --> 00:34:53,076 Speaker 3: And so now we can just direct that flow of 588 00:34:53,116 --> 00:34:58,116 Speaker 3: funds and say, yeah, put it in this money market fund. Great. Yes, 589 00:34:58,156 --> 00:35:02,316 Speaker 3: of course they're socioeconomic and geopolitical differences between us. But 590 00:35:03,356 --> 00:35:07,596 Speaker 3: can we actually get people to have access to financial 591 00:35:07,596 --> 00:35:10,436 Speaker 3: products and serve them to them at the right time 592 00:35:10,516 --> 00:35:14,596 Speaker 3: in a culturally relevant way and help them build financial 593 00:35:14,636 --> 00:35:17,676 Speaker 3: resilience and wealth for themselves wherever their new home is. 594 00:35:18,076 --> 00:35:20,956 Speaker 3: That's ultimately what we're driving towards. 595 00:35:20,996 --> 00:35:24,156 Speaker 2: Not to be crass after that high minded idea, which 596 00:35:24,196 --> 00:35:27,076 Speaker 2: I am a fan of, but like in that universe, 597 00:35:27,196 --> 00:35:31,796 Speaker 2: do you get essentially a commission from whatever money market 598 00:35:31,796 --> 00:35:33,516 Speaker 2: fund you're sending the people to, like, what's the business 599 00:35:33,596 --> 00:35:34,236 Speaker 2: model for that time? 600 00:35:34,396 --> 00:35:37,436 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, So would be very much like your Betterments 601 00:35:37,476 --> 00:35:41,236 Speaker 3: of the world, where you charge a management fee of 602 00:35:41,236 --> 00:35:45,076 Speaker 3: some sort and then we would just take that percentage 603 00:35:45,316 --> 00:35:47,636 Speaker 3: off the assets of your management. 604 00:35:48,036 --> 00:35:50,236 Speaker 2: So in that universe, they're like coming to the blue 605 00:35:50,236 --> 00:35:53,396 Speaker 2: map to look at their money market fund exactly, and 606 00:35:53,436 --> 00:35:55,996 Speaker 2: you're not the money market fund, but you're where they 607 00:35:56,156 --> 00:35:56,556 Speaker 2: sort of. 608 00:35:56,516 --> 00:36:00,756 Speaker 3: Deal with exactly, and we ultimately, over time, as we 609 00:36:00,836 --> 00:36:06,676 Speaker 3: grow as a business, become that financial headquarters. But through 610 00:36:06,716 --> 00:36:11,716 Speaker 3: the lens of people who live a diaspora lifestyle where 611 00:36:11,716 --> 00:36:14,236 Speaker 3: it's we get it. You're gonna have to send money home. 612 00:36:14,356 --> 00:36:16,716 Speaker 3: That's great, but why don't you also put some aside 613 00:36:16,716 --> 00:36:21,116 Speaker 3: for you or down the line. You know, my dad 614 00:36:21,156 --> 00:36:23,916 Speaker 3: bought a plot of land in India and built a 615 00:36:23,956 --> 00:36:28,876 Speaker 3: house for my late grandparents and his siblings. It's very 616 00:36:28,996 --> 00:36:32,916 Speaker 3: common for people from immigrant backgrounds to buy a plot 617 00:36:32,956 --> 00:36:35,556 Speaker 3: of land, build a house and that sort of thing. Well, 618 00:36:35,716 --> 00:36:38,956 Speaker 3: imagine a world where at Bloom you can also like 619 00:36:39,196 --> 00:36:41,596 Speaker 3: manage the flow of your funds so that the builders 620 00:36:41,636 --> 00:36:44,356 Speaker 3: get paid and everything, and you know, you have the 621 00:36:44,396 --> 00:36:48,756 Speaker 3: money to a mortgage to buy that plot of land, right, 622 00:36:48,876 --> 00:36:53,036 Speaker 3: And there's so many different directions that these things can 623 00:36:53,076 --> 00:36:59,676 Speaker 3: go where it's very specific to straddling countries, if not continents, right, 624 00:36:59,836 --> 00:37:03,596 Speaker 3: But being of diaspora means that you are often one 625 00:37:03,636 --> 00:37:05,916 Speaker 3: foot on one continent and one foot on the other. 626 00:37:06,436 --> 00:37:08,836 Speaker 3: And so where the place that they can come? And 627 00:37:08,876 --> 00:37:10,236 Speaker 3: that's that's the grand vision. 628 00:37:13,196 --> 00:37:14,876 Speaker 2: Are you going to come to the US? 629 00:37:18,076 --> 00:37:21,276 Speaker 3: I mean I am coming to the US. I'm an 630 00:37:21,276 --> 00:37:27,516 Speaker 3: American citizen. Bloom It's an interesting one. Bloom money is 631 00:37:27,556 --> 00:37:30,476 Speaker 3: serving immigrants, and of course the United States is the 632 00:37:30,596 --> 00:37:35,596 Speaker 3: largest market for that to be a success. I think 633 00:37:36,756 --> 00:37:40,876 Speaker 3: what I find exciting about Europe is that we are 634 00:37:40,956 --> 00:37:46,876 Speaker 3: largely becoming a region of immigration across the European continent. 635 00:37:47,436 --> 00:37:50,196 Speaker 3: And it's something that people don't realize, or they do 636 00:37:50,276 --> 00:37:53,476 Speaker 3: through a political lens, but not through a financial services lens, 637 00:37:53,556 --> 00:37:57,836 Speaker 3: and so there's a huge opportunity. Whereas in the States 638 00:37:57,876 --> 00:37:59,836 Speaker 3: it's kind of written on the tin that we're a 639 00:37:59,836 --> 00:38:04,076 Speaker 3: country of immigrants, like that's literally how we started. And 640 00:38:04,116 --> 00:38:07,236 Speaker 3: so it's a bit more of an obvious problem, which 641 00:38:07,276 --> 00:38:10,116 Speaker 3: means there's a lot more players in this. No one's 642 00:38:10,116 --> 00:38:13,676 Speaker 3: doing exactly what we're doing, but there's a lot more folks, 643 00:38:13,716 --> 00:38:17,636 Speaker 3: you know, specifically serving Latinos, right, So does. 644 00:38:17,516 --> 00:38:20,236 Speaker 2: That mean you're going to Europe next? 645 00:38:20,996 --> 00:38:24,036 Speaker 3: That is the plan, and I think, you know, be 646 00:38:24,156 --> 00:38:27,836 Speaker 3: a country like France or maybe Germany where you have 647 00:38:28,636 --> 00:38:33,556 Speaker 3: really large captive audiences, whether it's Turkish and Syrian in 648 00:38:33,636 --> 00:38:40,316 Speaker 3: Germany or Francophone African in France. So watch this space. 649 00:38:44,076 --> 00:38:46,196 Speaker 2: We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. 650 00:38:59,236 --> 00:39:05,876 Speaker 2: Let's finish with the lightning round. Okay, Oh gosh. If 651 00:39:05,916 --> 00:39:09,836 Speaker 2: you could join a money club with any three people 652 00:39:09,956 --> 00:39:12,196 Speaker 2: living or dead, who would they be? 653 00:39:13,476 --> 00:39:24,276 Speaker 3: I would join with Hmmm, I would join with Emmeline Pankhurst. 654 00:39:26,076 --> 00:39:33,956 Speaker 3: We love a suffragette queen. I would join with Benezir 655 00:39:33,996 --> 00:39:40,916 Speaker 3: Bhutto in the ra Gandhi. And there's me, so maybe 656 00:39:40,996 --> 00:39:42,676 Speaker 3: I'll add one more. Uh. 657 00:39:42,876 --> 00:39:45,476 Speaker 2: These are political political leaders. 658 00:39:45,236 --> 00:39:48,716 Speaker 3: Who happen to be and Mohammad Yunis, who is, like 659 00:39:48,836 --> 00:39:51,516 Speaker 3: I guess, the interim leader of Bangladesh right now, but 660 00:39:52,436 --> 00:39:57,116 Speaker 3: he was the founder of the Grimen Bank in Bangladesh 661 00:39:57,156 --> 00:40:03,596 Speaker 3: and has very much experimented with roscas and how they 662 00:40:03,636 --> 00:40:07,076 Speaker 3: can be used in developing countries. So yeah, those would 663 00:40:07,076 --> 00:40:08,596 Speaker 3: be my few people. 664 00:40:09,156 --> 00:40:10,916 Speaker 2: I feel like those people would all be good for it. 665 00:40:11,156 --> 00:40:12,636 Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like they'd be good for the money 666 00:40:12,636 --> 00:40:16,036 Speaker 3: as well. Although Emily Pankhurst, I don't know, she got up. 667 00:40:16,276 --> 00:40:19,796 Speaker 3: She was, you know, pamphleting. Women weren't allowed to have 668 00:40:19,836 --> 00:40:23,596 Speaker 3: pockets because we would give pamphlets out, you know, about 669 00:40:23,596 --> 00:40:24,236 Speaker 3: stuff for dead. 670 00:40:26,036 --> 00:40:29,716 Speaker 2: It's amazing how many women's pants still do not have pockets. 671 00:40:29,836 --> 00:40:30,716 Speaker 2: It's shocking to me. 672 00:40:30,876 --> 00:40:34,316 Speaker 3: It is actually shocking, and I it's actually one of 673 00:40:34,356 --> 00:40:37,196 Speaker 3: the things that I look for from a fashion perspective 674 00:40:37,236 --> 00:40:40,916 Speaker 3: when I buy dresses even I'm like, yes, pockets. 675 00:40:40,836 --> 00:40:48,196 Speaker 2: Pockets, it's a useful technology. Pocket everybody, what's one thing 676 00:40:48,236 --> 00:40:50,036 Speaker 2: written on a post it note in front of you 677 00:40:50,156 --> 00:40:50,556 Speaker 2: right now? 678 00:40:53,236 --> 00:41:01,116 Speaker 3: Slow it down, Calm it down, pressure brakes and that's good. Yeah, 679 00:41:01,156 --> 00:41:05,436 Speaker 3: that's just a reminder for me to not just speak 680 00:41:05,476 --> 00:41:08,316 Speaker 3: too quickly when I'm actually speaking to people. But also 681 00:41:08,476 --> 00:41:14,236 Speaker 3: just the course of business, like, applying pressure through speed 682 00:41:14,316 --> 00:41:17,956 Speaker 3: doesn't always help things, and sometimes it breaks things and 683 00:41:18,116 --> 00:41:20,996 Speaker 3: keeps a deal from happening because people feel pressured. So 684 00:41:21,716 --> 00:41:23,636 Speaker 3: slow it down, calm it down. 685 00:41:23,916 --> 00:41:25,516 Speaker 2: It's funny. I was thinking it was going to be 686 00:41:25,596 --> 00:41:27,796 Speaker 2: like make dentist appointment. 687 00:41:28,076 --> 00:41:30,636 Speaker 3: I mean, I've got those too, but they're far less 688 00:41:31,076 --> 00:41:34,156 Speaker 3: they're far less deep. Jacob, I need you to, I 689 00:41:34,196 --> 00:41:34,596 Speaker 3: need you to. 690 00:41:37,116 --> 00:41:41,236 Speaker 2: Yes. How did your parents talk about money when you 691 00:41:41,236 --> 00:41:43,316 Speaker 2: were a kid? 692 00:41:44,116 --> 00:41:50,396 Speaker 3: Definitely from a scarcity mindset. We were a family that 693 00:41:50,876 --> 00:41:54,516 Speaker 3: my father would like keep plastic bags and we very 694 00:41:54,556 --> 00:41:57,036 Speaker 3: much would like you know, back in the nineties when 695 00:41:57,036 --> 00:41:59,996 Speaker 3: they use proper plastic for ice cream tubs, like those 696 00:42:00,036 --> 00:42:03,436 Speaker 3: would become tupperware for us to use until that thing 697 00:42:03,476 --> 00:42:06,996 Speaker 3: broke down. But I think it was always a scarcity 698 00:42:07,036 --> 00:42:10,556 Speaker 3: minds that there's never enough, and everything was about scrimping 699 00:42:10,596 --> 00:42:13,916 Speaker 3: and saving. And my prom dress was thirty dollars from 700 00:42:13,956 --> 00:42:18,916 Speaker 3: like I think it was rass or Marshals, and you 701 00:42:18,956 --> 00:42:21,756 Speaker 3: know it was. I was always just taught that there 702 00:42:21,836 --> 00:42:25,356 Speaker 3: was never enough, and that has unfortunately affected me as 703 00:42:25,356 --> 00:42:30,756 Speaker 3: an adult because what is enough and what is enough 704 00:42:30,756 --> 00:42:33,436 Speaker 3: in your emergency fund? What is enough to have in savings? 705 00:42:33,476 --> 00:42:35,876 Speaker 3: What is enough to have in your investment account? And 706 00:42:35,916 --> 00:42:40,636 Speaker 3: it becomes very difficult when you're trying to enjoy life 707 00:42:40,716 --> 00:42:41,156 Speaker 3: as well. 708 00:42:41,476 --> 00:42:43,476 Speaker 2: Can you just go out to dinner and not worry 709 00:42:43,516 --> 00:42:45,716 Speaker 2: about it? Can you just order the fucking app. 710 00:42:45,836 --> 00:42:48,956 Speaker 3: Yeah, just get the fucking latte, you know, like it's 711 00:42:48,996 --> 00:42:50,316 Speaker 3: okay exactly. 712 00:42:50,516 --> 00:42:56,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I don't want to stereotype, but 713 00:42:56,316 --> 00:42:59,156 Speaker 2: I do feel like it's a classic immigrant vibe. Like 714 00:42:59,196 --> 00:43:02,356 Speaker 2: my grandfather was an immigrant, and that's how I always yeah, 715 00:43:02,476 --> 00:43:05,636 Speaker 2: that's how I came to understand that vibe. Yes, like 716 00:43:06,476 --> 00:43:09,116 Speaker 2: it's just people for a thousand years didn't have enough, 717 00:43:09,196 --> 00:43:13,036 Speaker 2: and so being in this world where it's like we're 718 00:43:13,076 --> 00:43:16,876 Speaker 2: doing great, that's not natural. No family. 719 00:43:17,036 --> 00:43:21,156 Speaker 3: I think it's something that to this day, my dad refuses. 720 00:43:21,636 --> 00:43:26,796 Speaker 3: Our garage at home is full of just like crap 721 00:43:26,836 --> 00:43:28,116 Speaker 3: that doesn't work. 722 00:43:28,956 --> 00:43:31,996 Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a box of cords that i'd like 723 00:43:32,036 --> 00:43:32,476 Speaker 2: to show you. 724 00:43:32,556 --> 00:43:36,196 Speaker 3: And my dad he's got this one vacuum cleaner that 725 00:43:36,236 --> 00:43:40,076 Speaker 3: he bought from Costco. This thing caught like probably weighs 726 00:43:40,076 --> 00:43:42,716 Speaker 3: more than I do. And he refuses. I was like, 727 00:43:42,796 --> 00:43:45,396 Speaker 3: I'm taking this to the dump, like, no one is 728 00:43:45,396 --> 00:43:47,796 Speaker 3: gonna buy this. He's like, no, I'm selling it for 729 00:43:47,876 --> 00:43:50,316 Speaker 3: two thousand dollars. I said, Dad, you bought it for 730 00:43:50,356 --> 00:43:53,596 Speaker 3: two thousand dollars from Costco and this thing doesn't even work. 731 00:43:53,636 --> 00:43:56,276 Speaker 3: You've got a Dyson, what are you doing? But it 732 00:43:56,556 --> 00:44:02,116 Speaker 3: really like this hoarding mentality when you felt like you 733 00:44:02,196 --> 00:44:05,396 Speaker 3: never had enough, it really sticks with you. So I'm 734 00:44:05,436 --> 00:44:07,836 Speaker 3: trying to break the cycle now and hope hopefully I 735 00:44:07,836 --> 00:44:09,796 Speaker 3: won't pass it down to any few your children I 736 00:44:09,796 --> 00:44:10,156 Speaker 3: may have. 737 00:44:11,316 --> 00:44:16,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's complicated though, because like I sort of like it, Yeah, 738 00:44:16,236 --> 00:44:18,156 Speaker 2: at some level, you know what I mean. Like it's 739 00:44:18,196 --> 00:44:21,876 Speaker 2: a balance, right obviously, Like people do spend all their money? Yeah, 740 00:44:21,916 --> 00:44:24,996 Speaker 2: people do, you know, live beyond their means, and so you. 741 00:44:24,876 --> 00:44:26,916 Speaker 3: Can it's in your head. 742 00:44:27,676 --> 00:44:29,756 Speaker 2: Is hard, Equanimity is exactly everything. 743 00:44:29,876 --> 00:44:31,596 Speaker 3: Moderation. There we go. 744 00:44:38,516 --> 00:44:42,156 Speaker 2: Ninamo Hunty is the founder and CEO of Blue Money. 745 00:44:43,196 --> 00:44:45,556 Speaker 2: Just a quick note, Whats Your Problem is gonna take 746 00:44:45,596 --> 00:44:47,396 Speaker 2: a break for the next couple of weeks and then 747 00:44:47,436 --> 00:44:50,476 Speaker 2: we'll be back with more episodes of the show. Please 748 00:44:50,516 --> 00:44:53,756 Speaker 2: email us at problem at pushkin dot fm. We are 749 00:44:53,796 --> 00:44:57,596 Speaker 2: always looking for new guests for the show. Today's show 750 00:44:57,956 --> 00:45:01,396 Speaker 2: was produced by Trinamanino and Gabriel Hunter Chang, who was 751 00:45:01,556 --> 00:45:05,676 Speaker 2: edited by Alexander Garretson and engineered by Sarah mcgharrett. I'm 752 00:45:05,716 --> 00:45:07,996 Speaker 2: Jacob Goldstein and we'll be back next week with another 753 00:45:08,036 --> 00:45:20,876 Speaker 2: episode of What's Your Problem. 754 00:45:11,076 --> 00:45:11,116 Speaker 3: U