1 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: Hey, Daniel, when did the latest run of the Large 2 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:11,399 Speaker 1: Hadron Collider start? 3 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 2: Ooh a few months ago? Ooh? 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: Does that mean we've shifted into another timeline in the multiverse? 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 2: What are you talking about? 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: Well, you know, people say that the Large Hadron Collider 7 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: somehow caused something called the Mandela effect, which is this 8 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: weird sensation that maybe we're in the wrong universe. Hmm. 9 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:31,639 Speaker 2: I think I want to be in the timeline where 10 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 2: nobody believes in the Mendela effect, because that's just silliness. 11 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: But isn't this an established the physics theory kind of 12 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:39,480 Speaker 1: the multiverse. 13 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 2: I'm just going to keep running the LC until we 14 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 2: end up in the universe I want to be in. 15 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 1: Is there a universe you want to live in? This 16 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: one's pretty good, So stop running the LAC then, because 17 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: it could get worse. 18 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 2: All Right, you convinced me? 19 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: Good? Pressent button, press that big red button. 20 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 2: Oo. 21 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: Hi. I'm Horaemery, cartoonist and the author of Oliver's Great 22 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: Big Universe. 23 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor 24 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 2: at uc Erline, and I'm a big fan of this universe. 25 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm a huge fan of this universe, especially because 26 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:27,119 Speaker 1: it made me and everyone I. 27 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 2: Know, and despite that we're all fans of it as well. 28 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: I'm not a fan of the universes that didn't make me. 29 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 1: The obviously didn't know what it was doing. 30 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 2: What if blueberries in those universe taste twice as good? 31 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 2: You still think that those universes are not worth knowing? 32 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:45,479 Speaker 1: Well, you mean can we visit them? 33 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 2: Yeah? If we go visit those universes and they have 34 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 2: amazing pastries we never even thought about before, But there's 35 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 2: no jhee cham. Are you gonna be like, nah, this 36 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:54,559 Speaker 2: isn't worth visiting. 37 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: Well, it's worth visiting, but I still like my universe. 38 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: Could we import these blueberries? I mean it sounds like 39 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: a market opportunity if you ask me. 40 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a startup idea, right there, will multiverse pastries, 41 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 2: Let's do it. 42 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think we need a need like economics term 43 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: for multidimensional trade benefits. 44 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 3: I think gives a whole new meaning to import export, 45 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 3: multi import, multi export, quantum importing or quantum exporting exactly. 46 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. 47 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 2: Finally a use for the word quantum that means something. 48 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 1: We're gonna be quantum rich. But anyways, Welcome to our 49 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: podcast Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of 50 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: Our Heart Radio. 51 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 2: In which we explore the fundamental meaning of reality and 52 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 2: the laws that govern it. We dig our way down 53 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 2: to the bedrock of nature and try to figure out 54 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:48,959 Speaker 2: what the rules are for this universe, how they come 55 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 2: together to make this amazing, creative, bonkers universe that features 56 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 2: both blueberries, pastries and Jorge chams. 57 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: That's right. We try to explore this universe, other universes, 58 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: all the universes, and what it all means to maybe 59 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: have different universes, and how we're ever going to find 60 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: out what the true reality of nature is. 61 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 2: One way to explore the reality of nature is to 62 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 2: do experiments and to test our universe and force it 63 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 2: to reveal its laws. But another very important way is 64 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 2: to think about the possible universes we might live in, 65 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 2: to be creative, to imagine the ways that the universe 66 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 2: might be. That's something that theoretical physicists do, but it's 67 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 2: also something that science fiction authors do. They create whole 68 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 2: new universes in their minds and think about what it 69 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 2: means to live in those universes, what the consequences of 70 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 2: that fictional science might be. 71 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: That's right. Science fiction has a long and interesting history 72 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:46,119 Speaker 1: of thinking about possibilities for technology science and what those 73 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: changes and those possibilities might mean for the universe we 74 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: live in and the way that we live in. 75 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 2: Because one reason why physics is so important and so 76 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 2: influential is because it has great consequences. The things that 77 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 2: we learned about the nature of reality tell us a 78 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 2: lot about the meaning of our lives. If you discovered 79 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 2: that we lived in a multiverse with infinite numbers of 80 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 2: copies of you, would you feel more valuable less valuable? 81 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 2: It certainly would change your perspective on the meaning of 82 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 2: your life and the ways that you make your choices. 83 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 2: Science fiction authors are often very clever at exploring the 84 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 2: ways that understanding the universe affects the meaning of our lives. 85 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: Or I guess at least looking at current theories and 86 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: then maybe exploring that, maybe before they're established or not, 87 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: just kind of wondering what would that if this theory 88 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: was true? What would that mean for our everyday lives. 89 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 2: And sometimes even coming up with new technologies that might 90 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,799 Speaker 2: be consequences of those theories that could change the daily 91 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: pattern of our lives. So on the podcast, we're normally 92 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 2: talking about actual physics of our actual universe, but we 93 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 2: have a whole series of episodes exploring the science of 94 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 2: fictional universes. 95 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: So at the end of the program we'll be exploring 96 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 1: the science fiction universe of Constellation. Yeah, this is a 97 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: new TV show right on Apple TV. 98 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 2: That's right, Constellation is on Apple TV and it's a 99 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 2: science fiction show written by one of my favorite screenwriters, 100 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 2: and it's a lot of fun. 101 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: Ooh, one of your favorite screenwriters. I didn't know you 102 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 1: followed screenwriters. 103 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 2: Well, I watch a lot of TV, so I do 104 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 2: call this Guy's written detective mysteries that I've seen, and 105 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 2: also wrote the adaptation for Jonathan Strange and Mister Norell, 106 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 2: a famously fantastical book. 107 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, my wife watched that show. Is that a 108 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 1: good show? I guess you liked it if if it's 109 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: one of your favorite writers. 110 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 2: The book is absolutely astounding and incredible. Really just a 111 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 2: worker genius. But I thought it was going to be unadaptable. 112 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,919 Speaker 2: It's just so complicated and intricate. But he did a 113 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 2: great job at the TV show. The TV show is 114 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 2: a different thing than the book, but really well adapted. 115 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: Well. Now, this writer called Peter Harness now has a 116 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: new show on Apple TV and it's titled Constellation. 117 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 2: That's right, and this one's salve in the science fiction category, 118 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 2: and there's a lot of quantum physics in it. Bose 119 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:08,239 Speaker 2: Einstein condensates, space travel, multiverse, all this kind of stuff. 120 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: WHOA, So, I guess what's the TV show about. 121 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 2: So it starts on the International Space Station. There's a 122 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 2: bunch of astronauts up there and they're doing a science experiment. 123 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 2: They're making a Bose Einstein condensate on the space station, 124 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 2: which is what so Bose Einstein condensate is a weird 125 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 2: state of matter. Remember that particles fall into two categories, 126 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 2: fermions and bosons. Fermions, like electrons and other matter particles, 127 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 2: have this rule that you can't have two of them 128 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 2: in the same state. So if you try to cool 129 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 2: down a bunch of electrons, for example, that won't actually 130 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 2: all fall down to the lowest energy level. They'll each 131 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 2: find their own place on the ladder, so the whole 132 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:47,919 Speaker 2: thing won't really cool down as much. But if you 133 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 2: play with bosons like photons or some kind of atoms, 134 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 2: they have no compunction against occupying the same energy level, 135 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 2: so you can cool them down much much lower. And 136 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 2: if you take a bunch of them and you cool 137 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 2: them all down, then their wave function overlap and they 138 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 2: form this new state of matter called a Bose Einstein contensate, 139 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 2: which is cool because it's sort of macroscopic. It's like 140 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 2: big enough you can see it, and it has quantum properties, 141 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 2: like it interferes with itself and all sorts of cool stuff. 142 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 2: So it's like a macroscopic piece of matter that has 143 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 2: quantum properties. It was first discovered in the nineties and 144 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 2: now they've replicated it in lots of situations, including in 145 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:25,559 Speaker 2: real life on the space station. 146 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: Wha, don't you need a lot of equipment for that, 147 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: like like giant machines or can you do this in 148 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: your desktop or your spacetop. 149 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 2: I guess you don't need giant machines. It's not like 150 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 2: the large Hadron collider. Mostly this is done with atomic physics, 151 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 2: and so you need like an atom trap and you 152 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 2: need magnets, maybe lasers. It's not enormous, Okay. 153 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: So then the scientists in the show did this in 154 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: space and then what happened? 155 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 2: So in the show they do this in space, and 156 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 2: then weird stuff happens. There's an accident and they come 157 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 2: back to Earth and discover that it's not really the 158 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 2: Earth they're familiar with. You know, some details are different 159 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 2: and people have different memories, and everybody thinks maybe they 160 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 2: went crazy up there. And as you watch it, you 161 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 2: discover that you're actually watching two stories in parallel, like 162 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 2: two different elements of a multiverse that have come to interact. 163 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 2: When the scientists did that experiment in space. WHOA. 164 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: So the show is following this group of astronauts and 165 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: when they come back, things are different, and it's because 166 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: they're not in the same universe or are we going 167 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: back and forth between the two universes. 168 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 2: Both some of them have switched over to another universe, 169 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 2: and so now they don't like have the memory of 170 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 2: the correct history anymore. They disagree with people like did 171 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:37,839 Speaker 2: we buy that red car? I thought our car was blue, 172 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 2: this kind of stuff. And there is still some interaction 173 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 2: between the universes, like the same person from two universes 174 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 2: can now talk to each other under some circumstances, and 175 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 2: so it's like these two universes have come into contact 176 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 2: and changed both of them. 177 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: Wait, like the people in the two universes swap places. 178 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 2: In some cases, yes, not everybody, but in some cases yeah. 179 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: Oh interesting. Now I guess as a quantum scientist, Daniel, 180 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: do you watch this and you're like, that's a lot 181 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,679 Speaker 1: of vs or or do you find it interesting? 182 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,319 Speaker 2: I always find it interesting, and what I'm looking for 183 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 2: is consistency. I treat each of these shows the way 184 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 2: I treat our universe, like I assume it's following some rules, 185 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 2: and I want to figure out what the rules are. 186 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,719 Speaker 2: It's like watching a murder mystery. You're gathering clues, You're 187 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 2: trying to figure out what happened. And so when they 188 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 2: do experiments and get weird results, I take that as 189 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 2: the writers communicated to me some information about the way 190 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 2: their universe works, so I want to try to figure 191 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 2: it out. I'm not insisting that the science in that 192 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 2: universe obey the same rules as the science in our universe. 193 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 2: Of course, it's called science fiction for a reason, and 194 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 2: it's really fun for me to try to figure out 195 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 2: what are the rules of that universe. 196 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: Okay, so then what are the rules in this universe. 197 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: It sounds like maybe it's getting into the multiverse and 198 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 1: the quantum multiverse in particular. 199 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, this leans a lot on things we're familiar with 200 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 2: in quantum mechanics, you know, superposition, the idea idea that 201 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 2: a particle can have the possibility of being in two 202 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 2: places at once, that both possibilities can exist simultaneously before 203 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 2: you look, and that only when a classical object interacts 204 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 2: with it does universe have to pick one or the other. 205 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 2: Like an electron can have a possibility to go left 206 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 2: or right, and it's not that it does both, but 207 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 2: that it maintains the possibility of having done both until 208 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 2: you've measured it. The idea of entanglement that two particles 209 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 2: with these possibilities can have their possibilities like tied together 210 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 2: in complicated ways. Ideas of interference, that these possibilities can 211 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 2: cancel each other out. All this kind of stuff is 212 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 2: used to pretty good effect in the show. But the 213 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 2: fundamental concept they're dealing with is actually not a multiverse. 214 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 2: It's something else. It's called a mirror verse, which is 215 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 2: like a multiverse but with only two universes in it. 216 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: But two is multi though, isn't it. 217 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, But I think the more common idea of a 218 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,199 Speaker 2: multiverse has an infinite number of universes in it, or 219 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 2: at least an enormous number. The most typical idea of 220 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 2: multiverse is the one that exists in like the Many 221 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 2: World's theory of quantum mechanics that says that when an 222 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 2: electron has a possibility to go left and to go right, 223 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 2: that both things do happen, that the universe splits into 224 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 2: two branches, and both of those universes then exist, and 225 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 2: those are different elements of the quantum multiver. 226 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,319 Speaker 1: Right, And then that's supposed to happen with every single 227 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: particle that exists in the world. Like each time any 228 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: of the Brazilians electrons in the universe does something or 229 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: picks a possibility, you split off a new universe. 230 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, so every billisecond, all the ten to the ninety 231 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 2: particles in the universe are creating new universes. So there's 232 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 2: an enormous number, many more than just two. In this show, 233 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 2: he's operating a much simpler sort of multiverse with just 234 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,199 Speaker 2: two universes in it, which he calls the mirror Verse. 235 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: But why only two? How did these two get created? 236 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good question. And as you'll hear in 237 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 2: my interview, I asked him about that, and he didn't 238 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 2: want to reveal it because he's got secret he wants 239 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 2: to reveal in season two. But there are some. 240 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: That's like a side to saying, I'll do this in 241 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: my future work. 242 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 2: My second Nobel Prize, we'll explain all of that. 243 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. 244 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 2: But there are some legit theories of the mirror verse 245 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 2: out there. I'm not exactly sure what Peter Harness has 246 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 2: in his brain, but there are scientists that talk about. 247 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: The mirror verse really like why too well. 248 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 2: Our universe is weird in some ways. For example, our 249 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 2: universe does not respect parody. Parody is like if you 250 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 2: flip the universe so that everything looks the way it 251 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 2: would in a mirror, you like, reflect it through the axis, 252 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 2: then the laws of physics would operate a little bit differently. 253 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 2: Our universe is sort of weirdly left handed, you've reflected 254 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 2: it in a mirror, it would look a little bit different. 255 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 2: We have a whole episode about paroity violation in our universe. 256 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 2: But there are some ways in which our universe has 257 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 2: made one of two choices, and so you can imagine 258 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 2: that there might be a mirror of our universe out there. 259 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 2: In a mirror verse where the opposite is true, like 260 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 2: the right handed version of our universe. 261 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: Then this is just like one choice you can make. 262 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: Aren't there like a bazillion of these choices. 263 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point. You know, there are other 264 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 2: basic symmetries. Parody is one that's violated maximally, though, and 265 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 2: so it's the one that seems most ripe for flipping, 266 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 2: you know, like time invariant symmetry is also not respect 267 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 2: in our universe, but is violated less dramatically than parity. 268 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,199 Speaker 2: But you're right, you could have another universe where that's flipped. 269 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 2: There's also charge in variance, but that one's actually respected 270 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 2: in our universe. But yeah, there are other ways you 271 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 2: can imagine flipping the universe where it's made one choice 272 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 2: or another, Like you could have another universe where what 273 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 2: we call anti matter is the dominant kind of matter 274 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 2: in the universe. 275 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: Right. I think what you're saying is, maybe, you know, 276 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: there are certain rules in physics that maybe apply to 277 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: there being two versions of us of a universe. 278 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 2: Mm hmm, yeah, exactly, and time is an especially powerful one. 279 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:48,079 Speaker 2: There was a theory that bounced around a few years 280 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 2: ago that at the Big Bang, two universes were created, 281 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 2: one flowing forwards in time and one flowing backwards in time. 282 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: Right, the Big Bang and then the Big Bong, Right. 283 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, pass it over man, and another hit. 284 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: Of the big Bone. That's how they came up with 285 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: this theory, isn't it Yeah? 286 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 2: Exactly. And there were even those crazy events from the 287 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 2: Anita experiment at the South Pole that we just talked 288 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,839 Speaker 2: about on the episode with Harry Cliff that received a 289 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 2: lot of silly buzz in the press for NASA discovers 290 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 2: a parallel universe right next to hours, which was totally 291 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 2: scientific misinformation. But there are those theories of another universe 292 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 2: going backwards in time. In none of those cases, though, 293 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 2: would you be able to interact with that universe? Like, 294 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 2: in none of those cases could you do an experiment 295 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 2: which is then can interfere because the quantum mechanics of 296 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 2: it is quite crisp. Like these universes when they branch, 297 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 2: do you call them another universe because you cannot interact 298 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 2: with it? That's sort of what it means. Like you 299 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 2: have the big wave function from the multiverse and then 300 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 2: it decoheres into separate wave functions. Those wave functions don't 301 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 2: interfere with each other, can't interact with each other at all. 302 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 2: That's sort of what we mean by another universe. So 303 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 2: the idea that you could do an experiment, even a 304 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 2: weird quantum one with Bose Einstein condensate in space, that 305 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 2: would somehow bring those universes together, that's science fiction. That's 306 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 2: not something we see in our kind of science at all. 307 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 2: That doesn't mean Peter Harness can't write it into the 308 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 2: fiction of his universe, but it's not something that exists 309 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 2: in our theories in any way. 310 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: So you're saying the whole show is just a bunch 311 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: of bs. I'm going to ask you, that's kind of 312 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: what you just said, Daniel. I didn't say it. 313 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 2: No, I'm saying it's fiction, and he's allowed to create 314 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 2: new rules for his universe. And as you'll hear in 315 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 2: the interview, I asked him about this, whether he's operating 316 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 2: by the rules in our universe or some speculative physics theories. 317 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: I'm guessing he just said, yes, I'm going to reveal 318 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: the reason for that in the next season. 319 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 2: That's exactly what he said. 320 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: See, I can predict things in our universe as well, 321 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: all right, well, here is Daniel's interview with screenwriter Peter Harness, 322 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: creator of the new Apple TV show Constellation. 323 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 2: All right, well then, it's my great pleasure to welcome 324 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 2: to the podcast. Peter Harness, an English playwright, screenwriter and actor. 325 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 2: Thanks very much for joining us. 326 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 4: Thank you very much. I need to update Wikipedia. I 327 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 4: haven't done any acting for a very long time, but 328 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 4: it's nice. It's still it's nice, it still believes that 329 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 4: I have more. 330 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 2: Once an actor, always an actor. So tell us a 331 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 2: little bit about your background. How did you get into 332 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 2: writing for television and science fiction writing starting from playwriting? 333 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 4: I think that I always wanted to write for TV 334 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 4: really more than anything else. And if I did a 335 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 4: little bit of playwriting earlier in my career, I think 336 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 4: it was a bit of a I can't really say 337 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 4: means to an end because both careers are pretty difficult 338 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 4: to get into, but I think I kind of did 339 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 4: it in the absence of writing for TV because really 340 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 4: that's what I've always wanted to do. That's my first love, 341 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 4: rather than film or the stage or anything like that. 342 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 4: So it was, yes, I was always trying my best 343 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,199 Speaker 4: to get into TV from the get go. 344 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 2: And why is that. Why were you so excited about 345 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 2: writing for television? What about that medium excited you? 346 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 4: I think that I grew up watching so much television. 347 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 4: I hate to say it, but the majority of my 348 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 4: childhood was spent watching TV, and I was a big 349 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 4: fan of I was a doctor who obsessive when I 350 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 4: was small. And there's something about that program and the 351 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 4: kind of level of scrutiny that fans go into on it. 352 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 4: It kind of brings you into an awareness of television 353 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 4: is actually made by people, and that it has writers 354 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 4: and producers and other people who make it. I found 355 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 4: that fascinating, and I found the whole, like the history 356 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 4: of television fascinating, and I kind of started doing a 357 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 4: PhD on an English TV dramatist called Dennis Potter who 358 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 4: wrote The Singing Detective and Pennies from Heaven and Blue Room, 359 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 4: embed Hills and things like that, and he was very 360 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 4: well known in his day, and he was one of 361 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 4: those people who just, you know, expanded the boundaries of 362 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,719 Speaker 4: what is what's possible with storytelling on the small screen. 363 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 4: And I've always wanted to get into it and be 364 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 4: able to tell those biggest stories over a longer period 365 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 4: of time. That you can't do in a movie or 366 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 4: a play. It's really it's really luxury to have seven 367 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 4: or eight hours to play with, or fifteen hours or 368 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 4: something like that. You can essentially tell a whole, big, 369 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 4: novelistic story and it can go anywhere and do anything. 370 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 4: I still find that incredibly exciting. 371 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 2: Well, you've done such a diversity of work, including original 372 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 2: stuff like Constellation and also really challenging adaptations like Jonathan 373 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 2: Strange and Mister Norell, which I watched and loved. Congratulations, 374 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 2: I tell us about the various challenges of that adapting 375 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 2: and existing complex work and inventing a whole new world yourself. 376 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 4: It's very nice that you mentioned Jonathan Stranger Miss Normal 377 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 4: because I think, actually, other than Constellation, it's the thing 378 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 4: that I'm most proud of. I really I wouldn't change 379 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 4: a single second of that. I really love that show. 380 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 2: And I have to say, watching that, I was very 381 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 2: skeptical because I thought, who is going to adapt this? Wow? 382 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 2: This book is insane, So congrats, I was really impressed 383 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 2: by it. 384 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 4: Well, I mean, it's a challenge to get hold of 385 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 4: one of those unadaptable books. It is a challenge to 386 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 4: adapt it, and I like that kind of challenge. I 387 00:19:55,520 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 4: like that kind of mental puzzle. And it's an interesting 388 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 4: process adapting a book. And it's different with every book, actually, 389 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 4: because some authors have strengths or weaknesses in certain areas 390 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 4: and you have to be quite sensitive with them. I mean, 391 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 4: I think, maybe this isn't the right way to do it. 392 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 4: But whenever I adapted a book, I wanted I always 393 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 4: wanted it to feel something like the experience of reading 394 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 4: the book, you know, to preserve not just cherry pick 395 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 4: the ideas and the characters and some of the plot 396 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 4: and just do a kind of radical throw out of 397 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 4: everything and put all of my own ideas into it, 398 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 4: perhaps naively and foolishly, like I say, I always wanted 399 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 4: to preserve, preserve the tone and the soul of the 400 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 4: original book, and that varies obviously very much from books 401 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 4: to book. And with something like Johns and Stranger, Miss 402 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 4: and Noral, which has such a distinct voice and such 403 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 4: a distinct sense of humor and world, and I love 404 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 4: that book myself, and I really wanted, I really wanted 405 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 4: to make it as magical and funny and exciting to 406 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 4: watch as it was to read. The challenge usually is 407 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 4: to just basically take the book to pieces and find 408 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 4: out what all the component parts are, and what the 409 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 4: what makes the characters tick, and which images and which 410 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 4: scenes are important, and then and then I tend to 411 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 4: kind of build a dramatic structure underneath it. If you 412 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,400 Speaker 4: see what I mean. A lot of novels don't really 413 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 4: they're not really according to like a film or TV 414 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 4: structure for storytelling. They've got their own pace and they 415 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 4: expect you to spend ten minutes with them on an 416 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 4: evening or kind of a couple of hours with them 417 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 4: on a train. So they're not they're not hooking you 418 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 4: in the same way. And so I always kind of 419 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 4: get inside and make the architecture a little bit different, 420 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,479 Speaker 4: and then and then layer the bits of the story 421 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 4: that we remember back on with that. So it's quite 422 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 4: it's quite a delicate and surgical procedure, but it's a 423 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 4: lot of fun. And like I said, I was always 424 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 4: interested in adapting books that maybe people had had a 425 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 4: go at before and found difficult or found not easy 426 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 4: to tell in a movie or something. And I enjoyed 427 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 4: that very much. But I kind of found myself doing 428 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 4: more and more adaptations, and that's not surprising because most 429 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 4: things are adaptations these days. But really, after Strange and Novel, 430 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 4: I made myself a promise that I wasn't really going 431 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 4: to seriously focus on anything else until I'd gotten an 432 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 4: original idea over the line. That's why I got into writing, 433 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 4: That's why I wanted to be a writer. I have 434 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 4: stories that I want to tell, and it's easy to 435 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 4: get sidetracked into not telling them. So I promise myself 436 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 4: that for good of thrill, I would I'd focus on 437 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 4: trying to get an original thing over the line. 438 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 2: Cancelation is definitely a very original story, and so we 439 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 2: want to talk about that. But first we want to 440 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,199 Speaker 2: orient ourselves sort of where you stand in the science 441 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 2: fiction universe. So we have a few questions we ask 442 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 2: all of our science fiction authors. So the first one 443 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 2: is do you think that Star Trek transporters kill you 444 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 2: and clone you or actually transport your atoms somewhere else? 445 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 2: That is, are they teleporters or actually murder machines. 446 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 4: I think that's such a depressing thought. I'm always much 447 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 4: more on the doctor Who's side than the Star Trek side, 448 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 4: so I always feel a little bit kind of adulterous 449 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:49,439 Speaker 4: thinking about the Star Trek, but they use that technology 450 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 4: in a Peter Cavaldi episode and Stephen actually made a 451 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 4: kind of play of that that he'd been broken down 452 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 4: into atoms and essentially killed and recreated. And I just 453 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 4: think that such a disturbing and horrible thought. But I 454 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 4: think that that kind of has to be how it works, right, 455 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 4: that has to be how it works. But it's just 456 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 4: it's just the most hideous thing that I've ever that 457 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 4: I've ever thought about. It looks, it looks so beautiful 458 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 4: and graceful, but yeah, they're just being butchered. No. I 459 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 4: think horrible as it is to think that, I think 460 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 4: that that that is what happened. 461 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 2: So as difficult as that is to embrace. What technology 462 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 2: in science fiction would you most like to see become reality? Which, 463 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 2: as a scientist to actually be working on. 464 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 4: It's hard to think of anything that I'd like to 465 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 4: see become a reality because usually the potential uses of 466 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 4: it or are also disturbing. I don't know, I'm a 467 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 4: bit of a ludd Eye. Really, I'm kind of anti technology. 468 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 4: It's not a great place to be in if you're 469 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 4: writing science fiction. I'm more horrified by the by the 470 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 4: potential frontiers of science than I am that I am 471 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 4: excited by them necessary I can't actually think of something. 472 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 4: I mean, I'd love to see time travel happening. I'd 473 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:14,919 Speaker 4: love to see interstellar space travel. Actually, in terms of constellation, 474 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 4: it would be very interesting to get to the end 475 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 4: of quantum physics, or get even half an inch further 476 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 4: along the line, because the suggestions that it makes about 477 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 4: the universe are so are so tantalizing and interesting. But 478 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 4: I just generally think we're probably it's very hard for 479 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 4: us to cope with the technology that we've got. It 480 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 4: would be great if we could invent a machine which 481 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 4: would just put some of it back in the box 482 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 4: and then ration it out again a little bit more, 483 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 4: a little bit more slowly, so we could actually cope 484 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 4: with it without driving ourselves mad. 485 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 2: As a species, well, maybe we should see science fiction 486 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 2: as warnings rather than inspiration. And then our last general 487 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 2: question is what's your personal answer to the Fermi paradox? 488 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 2: If the galaxy is so old and there's so many 489 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 2: habitable planets, why haven't any aliens visited us yet? 490 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 4: It's another depressing answer, and I'm obviously not the first 491 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 4: one to come up with it. It's because civilizations tend 492 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 4: to wipe themselves out before they managed to achieve that. 493 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 4: And also it might actually be impossible crossing such vast 494 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 4: levels of space might be something which just stumps any science. Yeah, 495 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 4: and I'm not entirely sure that aliens haven't visited as either, 496 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 4: So yeah, I think it's probably that they can't start 497 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 4: fighting each other for long enough to concentrate on getting 498 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:41,959 Speaker 4: off the planet. 499 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 2: So then let's turn to Constellation. The show, which is 500 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 2: a lot of fun, features a lot of themes of 501 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:52,159 Speaker 2: quantum mechanics, this superposition, multiverse, entanglement, et cetera. Tell me 502 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 2: what droot of these themes? What excited you about these 503 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 2: themes from a storytelling point of view. 504 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 4: Well, I didn't start out by one wanting to write 505 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 4: something about quantum physics. I started out really from the 506 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 4: idea of astronauts returning to Earth and feeling that something 507 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 4: was a miss and also this little ghost story of 508 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 4: a little girl lost in the forest and hiding in 509 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 4: a cupboard in an old, abandoned cabin. And that was 510 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 4: what really just came out when I sat down to 511 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 4: write the pilot, and so the whole development of the 512 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 4: show was working out how those two things fitted together, 513 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 4: and how and how that mother got back to that 514 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 4: child and had what had happened up there, and what 515 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 4: was causing the things that he was going through back 516 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 4: on Earth. And I think the quantum physics ideas just 517 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 4: started to slot in and started to give it some 518 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 4: degree of organization. And I'm very interested in the frontiers 519 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 4: of some ions and that quote biartheisy Clark about any 520 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 4: science sufficiently advanced being indistinguishable from magic. I find it 521 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,199 Speaker 4: very interesting to see science at at the edge of 522 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 4: itself and how many things remain mysterious and unexplained. And 523 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 4: one of the things that the people who work with 524 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 4: quantum physics keep on saying about it is that it's 525 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 4: that if you think you understand it, you don't understand it. 526 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 4: I mean, Einstein called it spooky action at a distance, 527 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 4: didn't it? And there is something tantalizingly spooky about it. 528 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 4: And I like thinking about how you might explain you 529 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 4: might explain things like ghosts or fairies or historical UFO 530 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 4: encounters in terms of science and how they collide and 531 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 4: whether there's actually any difference between them, or whether whether 532 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,719 Speaker 4: we're just describing the same thing in different terms. If 533 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 4: you see what I mean. It's very interesting to play 534 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 4: around with where science interacts with mythology or madness or 535 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 4: consciousness or other things that we don't really understand about 536 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 4: the human condition. And I wanted, I wanted to write 537 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 4: something which which took you through those steps and also 538 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 4: had the feeling of each of those each of those things. 539 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 2: Well, the show feels almost like it's written in the 540 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 2: style of a thriller or a mystery, but you know, 541 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 2: in a science fiction y sort of universe or in context. 542 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 2: And I know it's often said that you can't write 543 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 2: a mystery in the science fiction universe because for a mystery, 544 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,719 Speaker 2: the reader has to know what the rules are, and 545 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 2: in science fiction the rules can be almost anything. And 546 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 2: you've written mystery and detective shows yourself, so for you, 547 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 2: how important is it for the viewer that your universe 548 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 2: follows a coherent and consistent set of rules, even if 549 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 2: those rules, you know, not the same as the rule 550 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 2: of our actual universe. 551 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 4: I think writing something like this it's very important. I 552 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 4: think that it's it's it's no good if you if 553 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 4: you can just switch things out at the last minute 554 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 4: and and say and now she can grow another head, 555 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 4: or it's all about time travel. I think it's I 556 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 4: think it's very important because obviously part of the part 557 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 4: of the interest for some members of the audience is 558 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 4: figuring out those rules, and part of the fun of 559 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 4: making it is dropping hints to that and trying to 560 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 4: try to ration the ration the information, or allow people 561 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 4: a little bit more information here and there and let 562 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 4: them let them work out what's happening. But within that, 563 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 4: I think you've got to be very the audience has 564 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 4: to feel confident that there are rules. I think you've 565 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 4: got to present it with enough confidence to say, Okay, 566 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 4: you know, maybe you don't know what's happening yet, but 567 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 4: that's all right, because none of our characters do either, 568 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 4: and they're figuring it out alongside you, and you'll probably 569 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 4: actually get there a little bit ahead of them. So 570 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 4: it's fine. It's fine if you don't know everything at 571 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 4: the beginning, because you know, trust me, we're not making 572 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 4: it up. As we go along. Things will start to 573 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 4: fall into place. I think it's very important to do that, 574 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 4: and I think it's I think it's also very important 575 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 4: within that to give to have characters which are which 576 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 4: are living and breathing, and real characters and real situations. 577 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 4: So even if the law of the series or the 578 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 4: background of the series isn't in focus, you have clear 579 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 4: emotional investment in the characters. You know what they're going through. 580 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 4: And with Constellation, I really tried in each of those 581 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 4: situations that Joe or Alice or Henry and Bud find themselves, 582 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 4: I wanted to kind of present them like everybody knows 583 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 4: what it's like to go through a breakup, or most 584 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 4: people have an indication of what it's like to live 585 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 4: with someone who's suffering from mental illness. Everybody knows what 586 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 4: it's like to have a difficult relationship with a parent 587 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 4: or a child, And so I tried to get at 588 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 4: it through those things and give the emotional, the emotional 589 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 4: journey of it, the emotional backbone of it, a real strength, 590 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 4: so so it would carry all the weirdness along with 591 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 4: it and be and be understandable of itself. 592 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 2: Well, I'm definitely the slice of the audience that likes 593 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 2: to figure out what are the rules of this universe 594 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 2: that I'm watching. To me, that's the fun of science fiction. 595 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:52,959 Speaker 2: It's like a big detective mystery. It's like what are 596 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 2: the clues. How does this world work? I'm trying to 597 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 2: piece it together. And that's a parallel to what we 598 00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 2: actually do in reality. Like that's what science is. Where 599 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 2: all trying to solve the mystery of the universe and 600 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 2: we're getting a bunch of clues and trying to figure 601 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 2: out how it all makes sense. And I completely agree 602 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 2: with you with to trust the writer that it does 603 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 2: make sense, that there is some sense. And here in 604 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 2: our actual universe, I'm hoping that there really is some 605 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 2: sense behind everything. And we do wonder sometimes if there 606 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 2: is a coherent explanation, if they're just making things up. 607 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 2: So tell us in your universe, the universe of Constellation 608 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 2: takes place in in your mind, is it following the 609 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 2: same rules of physics as our universe or have you 610 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 2: sort of departed from it and created your own laws 611 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 2: that that that universe follows. 612 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 4: Yes, I would say yes, yea, yes it is. But 613 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 4: the laws of physics that it's following are perhaps interpreted 614 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 4: in a slightly kind of artistic way. They're not necessarily 615 00:33:52,440 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 4: kind of literally interpreted. I think the various quantum elements 616 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 4: are probably slightly I just I just found analogies kind 617 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 4: of from life or illustrated them in a way which 618 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 4: is not kind of replicatable in an experiment. But I'm 619 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 4: kind of obviously not a scientist, but from what I've 620 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 4: read and researched and understood it, here's to certain theories 621 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 4: about how physics might work, and whether they're provable or 622 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 4: proved or possible in the way that I present them, 623 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 4: I don't know, but it's all it's all, to my 624 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 4: mind possible, and and to to the kind of scientists 625 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,919 Speaker 4: that I've spoken to, it's it's possible. Perhaps it's not likely, 626 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,240 Speaker 4: but but it's a there's a world in which it's possible. 627 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 2: I'd love if you could go into more detail about 628 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 2: your process here. You mentioned that you've spoken to scientists, 629 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,319 Speaker 2: you've done some research. What is it like when you're 630 00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 2: writing on a topic that, as you said, you're not 631 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 2: an ex britty and you want to get right. Do 632 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 2: you call it a bunch of old friends? Is there 633 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 2: some like bank of scientists you can refer to. You 634 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 2: just do a bunch of reading yourself, some combination. 635 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,840 Speaker 4: It's a bit of a combination. I read up on 636 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 4: it as much as I could, and we had a 637 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 4: very really brilliant scientific advisor called Michael Brooks who used 638 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 4: to I believe he used to edit New Scientist, and 639 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 4: he writes a lot about the quantum universe and research 640 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,319 Speaker 4: into the quantum universe, and he was very helpful at 641 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 4: looking at how the plot was taking shape and suggesting 642 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 4: ways in which it could more closely mirror the research 643 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:49,840 Speaker 4: or certain theories or certain branches of it, and that 644 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 4: was really helpful. He was very good about suggesting the 645 00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 4: actual physical circumstances in which you know, a consciousness might 646 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 4: porously go somewhere else and chemically what that might look 647 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 4: like in terms of how the brain is working. I mean, 648 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 4: I asked him quite a lot about consciousness because I think, 649 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 4: as well as all the quantum stuff, I think that 650 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,879 Speaker 4: it's really about It's really about how the human consciousness 651 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 4: works and how we process reality, and to what extent 652 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:34,240 Speaker 4: consciousness is a thing that can bleed between different places 653 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 4: and so and so we have rules for all of that, 654 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 4: those things that Henry writes on the board in episode 655 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 4: for hinting at it, but there's he was just very 656 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 4: useful at filling in gaps where I maybe was just wondering, how, how, 657 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 4: how could this work. If this was a thing, how 658 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 4: might it work? And he was very responsive and helpful 659 00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 4: in saying, well, it could work like this, And I'd say, 660 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 4: does that sound likely to you? And it sounds as 661 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 4: likely as anything else. What do I know? He was 662 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 4: great And for the space stuff, I mean, we were 663 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,760 Speaker 4: very keen that everything that could be made authentic about 664 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 4: it was felt very authentic. The design of the ISS 665 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 4: is extremely authentic, and the space procedure in the space 666 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:33,319 Speaker 4: jargon is as authentic as we could we could make it. 667 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,840 Speaker 4: We had Scott Kelly, who spent a year in space 668 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 4: and is also an identical twin whose brother also spent 669 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 4: a year in space, and he was extremely helpful. We 670 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 4: had a couple of consultants from ISA, and I did 671 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 4: a lot of research about it. You buy yourself a 672 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 4: luxury to invent these weird and crazy happenings by telling 673 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 4: a story which otherwise seems very plausible and very authentic. 674 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 2: Well, congrats, I'm doing so much research. I respect that. 675 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 2: So I asked our listeners if they had questions for 676 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 2: you about the show, and many of them are watching 677 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 2: it and enjoying it, and some of their questions were 678 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,840 Speaker 2: about the multiverse, it struck them that it seems like 679 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 2: in the story there are basically two universes interacting, and 680 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 2: they were wondering why these two and why you decided 681 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,839 Speaker 2: to have two universes interacting rather than like many many 682 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 2: universes you know, of the potentially infinite in the multiverse. 683 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 4: I'm not going to tell you everything that I could, 684 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,839 Speaker 4: because I want to give us some grunt to cover 685 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 4: in the event that we get to continue telling the story. 686 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,439 Speaker 4: It's a mirror verse rather than a multiverse, I think, 687 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 4: And there's also a kind of physics related reason for 688 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 4: that too that I'm not going to kind of say 689 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,320 Speaker 4: much about for now, But I think if you get 690 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 4: if you get into a multiverse situation where suddenly everything 691 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,879 Speaker 4: is possible and you're suddenly achering off into bubble universes 692 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,760 Speaker 4: at every decision point, that's a different kind of story. 693 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,960 Speaker 4: And that is a world in which theoretically everything is possible, 694 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,319 Speaker 4: and I wanted it to feel rather more closed and 695 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 4: consequential than that. You know, there are two realities. They're 696 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 4: extremely closely mirrored for reasons, but there are only kind 697 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 4: of two versions of our characters who may who may 698 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 4: or may not meet in the middle somewhere, and I 699 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,880 Speaker 4: think that that somehow seems a bit more dangerous to 700 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 4: me and a bit more important than a multiverse where 701 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 4: some where, you know, someone can die and it doesn't 702 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,759 Speaker 4: matter very much because there's another version of them there, 703 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 4: and someone can choose to wear a pink hat one day, 704 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 4: and someone can have, you know, several noses and eighty 705 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:57,280 Speaker 4: five sisters in one different universe, and eighty four sisters 706 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 4: and the other. It just suddenly becomes kind of weird, baffling. 707 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 4: And I wanted to make something about a very tight, 708 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:09,960 Speaker 4: particular constellation of people, and I think the mirroring and 709 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,840 Speaker 4: having another one of you, that's something that we can understand, 710 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 4: and that's a notion that we have in us. We 711 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,719 Speaker 4: have you know, we've got mirrors all around us, We've 712 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:26,040 Speaker 4: got reflective surfaces. I think that that's a much more 713 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:32,799 Speaker 4: to me. That's a more interesting proposition really than a multiverse, 714 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 4: which is which is also fascinating. But I wouldn't know 715 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 4: how to begin to organize the rules of telling that story. 716 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 4: And you know, you get into kind of everything everywhere, 717 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 4: all at one situation, which is utterly exhilarating. But I'd 718 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,440 Speaker 4: soon I'd soon feel totally out of control of that, 719 00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:57,080 Speaker 4: you know. So it's a mirror verse, and there's obviously 720 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,520 Speaker 4: some sort of meeting point in the middle, some sort 721 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 4: of liminal space or some you know, superpositional space where 722 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:10,440 Speaker 4: things are not quite decided in the middle, and that 723 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 4: just seemed to be eventually the right way to tell 724 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:16,760 Speaker 4: the story. I'm sure. I'm sure I did tinker around 725 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:21,319 Speaker 4: with them maybe being other versions, other realities, but it 726 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 4: would have just it would have driven me even more 727 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 4: insane than writing it with two realities already drove me. 728 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,440 Speaker 4: So I didn't do that well. 729 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 2: This idea of a liminal space, the connection between the 730 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:39,239 Speaker 2: two universes, I thought was really fascinating as you're writing it. 731 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,200 Speaker 2: What are the sort of rules for how the two 732 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:45,000 Speaker 2: universes can overlap? Because sometimes they seem separate, like two 733 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,400 Speaker 2: characters can't hear each other, and sometimes they do seem connected, 734 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,480 Speaker 2: they can hear each other. Other times it's through a 735 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 2: tape recording. I don't want to ask you to reveal 736 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 2: too many secrets, but so, what are the rules you 737 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,520 Speaker 2: have in your mind for how these two universes interact? 738 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 4: What can I say I don't I don't want to 739 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 4: seem coy about it. I'm a bit allergic to shutting 740 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:09,000 Speaker 4: everything down in terms of spoilers, but but I know 741 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 4: if we carry on telling the story, there's a lot 742 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:13,600 Speaker 4: of this to reveal, and I don't want to want 743 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 4: to spoil it. I don't want to spoil it and 744 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 4: advance for anybody because I know how how much people 745 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,800 Speaker 4: enjoy figuring it out. Yeah, there are there are rules 746 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,799 Speaker 4: to it, and perhaps it's got something to do with 747 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,040 Speaker 4: the cow, and perhaps it's got something to do with 748 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,120 Speaker 4: being in space, and perhaps it has something to do 749 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:37,400 Speaker 4: with a particular emotional state or brain chemistry or something 750 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,960 Speaker 4: like that. That's very vague, but it's kind of in 751 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:40,560 Speaker 4: that area. 752 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,480 Speaker 2: It's vague but intriguing, Thank you very much. So then 753 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 2: my last question for you is do you have a 754 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,160 Speaker 2: full idea of the whole story before you sit down 755 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:52,880 Speaker 2: and write. You outline the entire plot and then you 756 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,239 Speaker 2: sit down to write it, or you sort of discovering 757 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:57,320 Speaker 2: it on the page as you write it. And is 758 00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 2: that also true for like seasons two and three, you 759 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:01,200 Speaker 2: already have those worked out. 760 00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:05,399 Speaker 4: That I completely don't do it like that. I wish 761 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,640 Speaker 4: I did. It would be a lot more efficient, I think, 762 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:12,719 Speaker 4: But I tend to. I tend to work things out 763 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 4: on the page, and I tend to I tend to 764 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:19,920 Speaker 4: write a lot of different material and then look at 765 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:23,399 Speaker 4: it because it all, it all kind of comes from 766 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,400 Speaker 4: the same place. If you're if you're dreaming up a project, 767 00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,960 Speaker 4: it all your your brain is very clever and good 768 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:35,400 Speaker 4: at working things out subconsciously and generating these things without 769 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:41,319 Speaker 4: you having to instruct it too much. So I tend 770 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,600 Speaker 4: to write quite quite a big bunch of stuff and 771 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,239 Speaker 4: then work out how how it all fits together, and 772 00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:53,560 Speaker 4: how the stories fit together, and how the characters, how 773 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,279 Speaker 4: are the characters journeys and personalities merge, and give it 774 00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,680 Speaker 4: forward momentum. And I don't know, I don't know whether 775 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 4: that's the most efficient way of doing it, but I 776 00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:07,680 Speaker 4: know that I know that if you're outlining something properly, 777 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:12,399 Speaker 4: outlining it is almost as difficult as writing it. It's 778 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,400 Speaker 4: a peril of the job that you do have to 779 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 4: do outlines and things. But I'm not that great at 780 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:23,480 Speaker 4: sticking to them all the time, because you just find 781 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,840 Speaker 4: that if you're writing an outline of thing, something you're 782 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,400 Speaker 4: kind of writing in shorthand. Often because you're not seeing 783 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:36,560 Speaker 4: how ideally, if you're writing scenes, kind of characters just 784 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,680 Speaker 4: lead you off in a different direction, or they lead 785 00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:41,759 Speaker 4: you somewhere a bit surprising and you think, oh, well, 786 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,480 Speaker 4: I actually kind of can't tell that scene next because 787 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:50,000 Speaker 4: because the characters, you know, decided against that and we 788 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 4: and we have to go somewhere else. And I'm a 789 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:56,520 Speaker 4: big believer in going down rabbit holes and exploring blind 790 00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:00,520 Speaker 4: alleys because you'll always you'll always find something of interest there, 791 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,600 Speaker 4: and even if it's just a line or a thought, 792 00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 4: or even if or if it's just the knowledge that 793 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,120 Speaker 4: the path that you that you didn't take, you were 794 00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,760 Speaker 4: right not to take. So it is a big period 795 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:18,720 Speaker 4: of exploration for me. Having said that, I've been living 796 00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,399 Speaker 4: with this world and these characters for such a long 797 00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:26,080 Speaker 4: time that I do have I've got a good broad 798 00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 4: idea of where it all goes. I've got i've got 799 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:32,160 Speaker 4: a good idea of their their history and their backstory 800 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,439 Speaker 4: and the stories that they can tell. And I've i've 801 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:39,239 Speaker 4: got i've got an end destination. So so really i've 802 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,680 Speaker 4: kind of I've got the broad brushstrokes of it, and 803 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:48,479 Speaker 4: many specific happenings and events along the way, but I could. 804 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:50,719 Speaker 4: I couldn't tell you what's going to happen at the 805 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,680 Speaker 4: end of episode three in season four, because I mean, 806 00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 4: I've got to leave myself somewhere to go as well. 807 00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:00,239 Speaker 4: You know, if you know exactly what you go into 808 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:04,000 Speaker 4: right then then you can't surprise yourself and it stops 809 00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,359 Speaker 4: being so interesting to sit down and do it if 810 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:08,719 Speaker 4: you just feel your inking it in. 811 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,680 Speaker 2: As I say, well, congratulations on season one. It was 812 00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:14,960 Speaker 2: a lot of fun to watch. What are you working 813 00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:17,200 Speaker 2: on right now? Is it Constellation season two or do 814 00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:23,839 Speaker 2: you have some other project cooking? Well, well, I am 815 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:31,960 Speaker 2: I can't answer that, Okay, undisclosed projectdisclosed projects. 816 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:36,319 Speaker 4: Yeah, no, but I'm busy. I'm fairly busy just now. 817 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,520 Speaker 4: I wish I was having a holiday, but I'm not. Yes, 818 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:42,440 Speaker 4: so I'm keeping myself busy. 819 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,839 Speaker 2: All right. Wonderful. Well, congratulations again, and thanks very much 820 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:46,520 Speaker 2: for talking to us. 821 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:47,600 Speaker 4: Thank you so much. 822 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,759 Speaker 1: All Right, pretty interesting interview. I noticed you were sort 823 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:06,799 Speaker 1: of fan boying a little bit. 824 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. I really respect what this guy has done. I 825 00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,680 Speaker 2: like his writing. I like what he's done with his career. 826 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:15,720 Speaker 2: You know, he's taken chances. I think it's just awesome. 827 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,000 Speaker 2: I love getting to talk to people in other paths 828 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,480 Speaker 2: in life and hearing about their experience and the risks 829 00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:22,840 Speaker 2: they took and what it's like to be there, because 830 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:24,800 Speaker 2: you know, we only choose one path in our life, 831 00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,440 Speaker 2: and so it's sort of fascinating to imagine other paths 832 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,080 Speaker 2: in your own life. And one way to do that 833 00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,959 Speaker 2: is to talk to people who have taken those paths. 834 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,919 Speaker 1: The mirror verse of your life. Yeah, did you ever 835 00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:37,800 Speaker 1: think at some point of being a TV writer? Sounds 836 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:38,480 Speaker 1: like maybe you did. 837 00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:40,440 Speaker 2: I have written for television, dude, so have you? 838 00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:44,040 Speaker 1: We have a TV show together, I mean, like science fiction, 839 00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:44,880 Speaker 1: physics stuff. 840 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:47,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. We don't have any science fiction in 841 00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,239 Speaker 2: our show. Yeah. I would love to write science fiction. 842 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,840 Speaker 2: I'm not sure about for television, but I read a 843 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,120 Speaker 2: lot of science fiction. I think about science fiction just 844 00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:55,800 Speaker 2: like I think about science It's a lot of fun. 845 00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:56,600 Speaker 2: Maybe one day. 846 00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:58,719 Speaker 1: So what else did you do You feel you learned 847 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:03,680 Speaker 1: from Peter Harness about the process of writing for science 848 00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:04,319 Speaker 1: fiction for TV. 849 00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:06,799 Speaker 2: Yeah. I was really curious what his process was, and 850 00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,040 Speaker 2: he took it pretty seriously. You know, he's not a physicist, 851 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:11,400 Speaker 2: of course, but he reached out to some scientists. He 852 00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:13,880 Speaker 2: did a bunch of reading. He tried to write something 853 00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,000 Speaker 2: which was respectful of the ideas of science, but also 854 00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:18,919 Speaker 2: he took some liberties, you know, in order to tell 855 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,239 Speaker 2: a story, and so I respect what he did. 856 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:24,359 Speaker 1: Cool. Did you give me your business card? Are you like. 857 00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:26,480 Speaker 2: Calling let's collab man? 858 00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:27,960 Speaker 1: Yeah? 859 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:29,160 Speaker 2: Is that how they say it these days. 860 00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:31,400 Speaker 1: Let's find ourselves in a universe where we worked together. 861 00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:34,400 Speaker 2: That's right. I want to interfere with your next project. 862 00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:36,160 Speaker 2: I want to entangle myself now. 863 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:40,239 Speaker 1: That career sound like something you would one in your 864 00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:41,480 Speaker 1: in your life there. 865 00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,160 Speaker 2: I want to superimpose myself on your writing process. 866 00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:48,640 Speaker 1: That's right. I am super imposing myself onto your contact list. Yeah. 867 00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:50,440 Speaker 2: I think he wants to keep my spooky action at 868 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:50,920 Speaker 2: a distance. 869 00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:55,640 Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, he wants no entanglement for exactly. 870 00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:58,120 Speaker 2: I respect that. I respect that. No, it was very 871 00:48:58,160 --> 00:48:59,640 Speaker 2: nice of him to take some time to talk to me. 872 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:00,480 Speaker 4: I enjoy it. 873 00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you very much, Peter Harness, and please check 874 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:08,520 Speaker 1: out his new show Constellation, available on Apple TV. Well, 875 00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:11,479 Speaker 1: we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for joining us. See 876 00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:12,040 Speaker 1: you next time. 877 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,120 Speaker 2: For more science and curiosity, come find us on social media. 878 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,720 Speaker 2: Where we answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter, 879 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:27,480 Speaker 2: disc Org, Insta and now TikTok. Thanks for listening, and 880 00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,239 Speaker 2: remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is a 881 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:34,800 Speaker 2: production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the 882 00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:39,080 Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 883 00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:39,920 Speaker 2: favorite shows.