WEBVTT - Fire Drill 013: Tiger Tales 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:07.680 I don't think there's anything there except for actually animosity 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:10.559 for the Uh not Phil to Tiger, because I think 0:00:10.600 --> 0:00:14.800 Phil genuinely is grateful for all the Tiger's done for golf. 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:19.160 I e. Raised verses immeasurably, But I think Tiger has 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:27.120 no use for Phil. Put another log on the fire 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:38.240 nobody hears get the time. Hello, Welcome back to another 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:41.640 fire Drill podcast. This is Alan ship Duck. I have 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:44.479 Michael Bamberger sitting to my immediate left here in the 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:47.879 living room or rental house in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Michael, welcome, 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:53.200 good to see you as always I know, and Uh. 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:56.720 On the line with us is John Hawkins, a legend 0:00:56.760 --> 0:00:58.760 of the golf beat, one of the big dogs carving 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:03.200 the tour and the two thousand's and beyond. And Johnny, 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:06.560 thanks for joining us, my pleasure, Thanks for having me. 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:09.039 Guys back in the day, if you were a German 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:11.080 hawk was there, it was a big tournament, that's right. 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:14.679 I mean that was Williamsburg St. Jude on them all 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:18.440 the fifth majors. I mean, it's fun. It's fun to 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:21.040 think about those old days when you know, we were 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:23.680 at s I and you were at Golf World and 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:26.960 there was really a sense of competition, like people don't 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:29.680 understand how competitive journalism is. And you never wanted to 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:32.360 get beat by the other guy. And you guys had 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:35.600 you guys had Tim Rosaford. There was there was there 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:39.119 was a lot of uh of energy on that beat, 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:42.360 like trying to trying not You had Bob Verdi, you know, 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:45.480 we had Guarty and bad Sickle, like there was a 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:48.280 lot of talent there and nobody wanted to pick up 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:50.640 their magazine a few days later and realized, dang it, 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:53.320 I got beat on this one. So those are those 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:55.000 were fun times, you know what they were. It was 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:57.440 a pleasure to read you guys, Prosier read you and 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:00.160 the range of talent that you go Hi you I's 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:02.360 had been Sickle and various others. And the thing about 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:06.920 Hawk was much like Gary Smith's. He would ask anybody anything. 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:08.880 He said to Curtis when he came off the course 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:11.680 at Pinehurst, whatever year that was, I guess when Paine 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:15.000 one the first question out of the box of curse 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:18.639 we ever went again, Well, John, that's kind of a 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:23.400 point to question we want to answer. No, we had 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:25.960 to spend a lot of money to compete with spot clistiated. 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:30.080 I'll tell you that. Thankfully it wasn't any of mine. Yeah, 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:33.679 those were fun days. Those were fun days. Magazines were 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:36.880 were a beautiful thing while they lasted, but they last 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:40.160 no more for the most part. But anyway, it is 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:42.639 funny to think about we would send our stories off 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:45.080 and you'd have to wait three or four days to 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:46.640 actually get the physical magazines to see what the other 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:49.200 guys wrote. Like imagine that. Like I feel like if 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:51.440 I post a story an hour and a half after 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:54.279 term ends, it feels like I'm late. Like the immediacy 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:57.160 has changed so much, has changed our jobs too. But 0:02:57.240 --> 0:02:59.240 that was weirdly, the pleasure of the whole thing was, 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:01.360 you know, waiting on it, you know, I mean it 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:03.519 was legendary to say, you know, wait on Jenkins or 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:05.920 we done on herb Wind. But you know, even in 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:08.000 our day to wait on Riley Waite and Garritt were 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:10.440 hawk and see what he'd right. It was part of 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:12.720 the fun of the thing that the lack of immediacy 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:15.799 was actually part of the greatness of it. And it's hard, 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:17.960 it would be hard for a young person actually understand 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:19.560 what we're talking about, but it really is true. You 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:21.880 waited for that magazine to come and it was part 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:26.720 of the fun. Yeah, don't you think, huck, Yeah, I 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:30.080 certainly enjoyed those days. I didn't have any problem with 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:31.919 the weight. We didn't know that, we didn't know what 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:34.839 other it was, right, And I wasn't a big fan 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:39.120 of being of covering the tournament after say a major, 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:41.920 and having to go find the magazines. They'd often be 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:46.160 sitting in the pro shop and these bundles. Uh, and 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:47.880 that would be the only way I would get to 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:51.200 read the piece because there was really no internet until 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:54.120 what round two thousand. I mean, I know it came 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:58.880 along long before that, but uh, I got my first 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:04.520 email address, and I I know that what time time 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:06.360 AK was? You know, a partner bo l at the 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:09.120 Times and they assigned his email addresses and mine was 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:12.520 M Barmburger zero two two four. And Shipnuk says to me, 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:14.560 he said, you know, you can probably do something in 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:16.279 shorten that, And I said to show him that this 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:20.359 email thing it's going to be a fad. I'm still stuck. 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:23.520 I'm still stuck with M. Bamburger zero two two atl 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:28.680 dot com. Way to read the Tea leaves Michael yea. 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:32.280 But so for this conversation, I want to start by 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:37.440 by getting into one um, Eldrick taunt Woods, because he's 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:42.400 gonna be a huge force at this tournament. Like Tigers 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:46.280 press commerces are now events, his practice rounds are now events. 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:48.479 I mean the crowds that are out there following them 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:50.279 used to be you know, come Thursday, everyone would tune 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:52.800 into Tiger because you had to. But it's like now 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:55.200 the second steps on the grounds, and I guess because 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:57.400 it's perishable. We know the end could come in any moment, 0:04:57.480 --> 0:05:00.000 and people just want to reach out and touch history, 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:02.240 and I feel like they're part of it. But uh, 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:04.320 you know, you you were there for all of Tiger's 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:06.479 greatest winds hawk and you had you had a lot 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:10.440 of access to him, And uh, I guess for you 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:13.760 this evolution of Tiger from this hardass competitor to now 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:18.760 this beloved elder statesman and the innumerable comeback when the 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:22.359 grand sweep of Tiger's career, what what moments stand out 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:24.560 to you that you know, either on the golf course 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:27.599 or a little stolen moments you shared with them. Oh 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:30.200 my god, I could take us for an hour, but 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:35.120 I'll spare you. I think that the relationship I had 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:39.159 with with Woods was pretty good because he didn't like 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:42.280 Tim Rose Afford, uh, and he didn't like a lot 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:44.880 of guys, and I guess he trusted me. He tested 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:48.760 me plenty, as as the anecdotes in your wonderful book 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:56.960 will test. Actually, UH very different kind of relationship with 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:01.240 Phil much like Alan's, by the way, But I love 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:05.080 the book as as you guys know, and Uh recently 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:09.000 wrote I remember Tiger remember the w g C in 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:15.040 Atlanta in Woodstock, Georgia, like two thousand five it was. 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:18.039 It was the one that was started in Spain and 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:20.440 ended up in about I think it ended up in 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:23.960 like Iceland or something. It was. It moved so often 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:26.920 before it finally went to Funk. And I remember Tiger 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:31.040 coming up to me afterward after he played around, and 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:33.640 he said hawk Camarre Camara and drags me over and 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:38.000 he pulls me into a private area. Just I man, 0:06:38.680 --> 0:06:40.560 I read that article you wrote the other day. It 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:43.159 was so funny and I was taken aback. I'd never 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:47.800 had Woods uh respond to anything I'd ever written on 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:51.880 him or anybody else. And this wasn't really about him. 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:54.920 It was just one of these pot pourri deals kind 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:57.440 of you know, one off with the butt of bings 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:00.240 at the end of each at the end of each graph, 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:03.279 and that that sticks out because it showed me about 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:06.800 something about Tiger that I roy didn't know. I think 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:10.680 he he didn't like to be bothered at Majors, as 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:13.240 you guys know, he'd come in and do his thing. 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:17.400 As for as for the here and now, not only 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:22.600 is he perishable, but he's he's really become you know, 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:25.600 this is kind of the ultimate comeback for him, although 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:29.800 I still think twenty nine, the twenty nineteen Masters was 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:34.280 his eighty six Masters, much like maybe maybe it feels 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:37.800 one p g A may turn out to be sort 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:40.480 of the coup de gras, whatever you wanna call it. 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:43.800 I don't think he has anything left to prove. That said, 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:46.640 I think you get factor this week if he's if 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:49.080 he's only taken one day off between the Masters and 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:51.520 p GA, he's got to be in pretty good shape 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:55.280 competitively heading in. Yeah, but you know, going back to that, 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:58.840 that that moment where you know Tiger tapped you up 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:02.760 for that story, like at his roote, he's a golf nerd, 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:05.320 and he you know, he loves. He loves the game, 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:06.600 he loves to read about the game, he loves to 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.520 talk about the game. He venerates the history. So I'm 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:12.000 not surprised that he was he was pouring over some 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:15.760 random article in Golf World, because he's kind of this 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:20.200 all knowing, all seeing, uh, you know figure in my mind, 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:23.400 like he doesn't miss anything. Now, he won't often admit it, 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:25.800 but I feel like he was. He was always watching 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:29.360 and he was always reading, and um, this underrated part 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:34.360 of of Tiger's persona, like he doesn't miss much. Do 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:37.480 you remember do you remember the golf trip we went 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:40.480 on to Ireland? What was that? Was Timie on that trip? 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:48.560 No Man Janella Alan. It was Bistrom. It was Bistrom. 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:53.320 Was the fourth was we brought Bastroom might not have 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:57.880 been our best call. We'll leave that alone for the masses. 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:02.240 I remember seeing Tiger later on that trip in in 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:06.200 dining room at one of the those fine places we 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:10.760 were sponging free room from and uh Tiger. It was 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:12.440 early in the morning. He was like seven am, and 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:17.520 Tiger had to stack of clips like had to be 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:22.760 media stuff. I mean, I gingerly approached him after I 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:25.319 had finished breakfast and at a time that didn't look 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:28.120 like I'd be bothering him. I always tried to tiptoe 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:30.840 my way over there, hoping he'd see me and either 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:36.120 tell me to you know, g F yu or h 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:39.960 come on over and uh, yeah, he you can't be 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:44.200 that famous and and that and even remotely clueless. He 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:47.240 had to keep up on everything. But anyway, I remember 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:49.839 that that was Duval was on that trip. They were 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:53.480 they were They had a helicopter and it was Duval. 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:55.800 It was two thousand and two because Duval had the 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:58.400 Claret jug he was on there. He was going to 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:01.320 return it the next week as defending Chap and it 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:04.320 was we were packing up our rooms and his it 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:07.720 was in this wooded crate and it was outside his room, 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:10.240 and I was just walking through this courtyard, and for 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:12.480 a split second I thought about stealing it as kind 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:15.199 of a joke. And could you imagine the panic that 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:18.360 would have set off if Duval had lost the oldest 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:20.480 trophy and golf like and that we could have just 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:22.760 kept it for a few days and I had a 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:24.920 little fun with it, but I chickened out to my 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:28.000 everlasting regret, because I remember that there they had it 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:31.720 was we're at the cake club? Is that everywhere? Yeah, 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:35.920 that sounds right. I think, Yeah, Tiger was so rather, 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:40.360 Tim was so fair with everybody. What was Tigers slaying 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:43.040 with him? What? Why? Why? Why did why did he 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:45.840 even have a beef with him in the first place? Michael, 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:49.320 I think the problem Tiger had wasn't just with Tim, 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:53.680 but with John Strady and anybody else who made a 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:58.480 dime off of Tigers being off his likeness. Uh, and 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:01.920 those guys wrote books on Tiger, and for whatever reason, 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:09.240 Tiger took extreme umbrage to that. He didn't want people 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:14.000 making any money off of his life story was the 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:18.640 first you know him eventually kind of fell out of 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:20.880 favor with him, and I'm sure I did at some point, 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:24.960 although I never wrote a book on him. Um well 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:27.760 hideas I mean, he was a co author on The 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:31.960 Big Miss with Hank Caney, and so I just understand 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:33.840 why they might have been upset because it's some sort 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:37.920 of unspoken code about the player caddie relationships, like is 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:40.839 like is it like a client privileged sort of thing? 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:43.200 Even though I'm sure we all disagree, but I know 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:46.040 that was Tiger's take. But I mean Stringy's book was 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:48.600 so affectionate. It was really the first biography and he 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:51.680 had he was writing for the Orange County Register and 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:54.640 he just knew the family well. And like I always 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:56.480 think that's one of the best Tiger books there is. 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:58.360 It's hard to imagine they were upset about that. And 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:01.440 then Rosaford like he did it in like two thousand 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:03.920 and Tigers. He's right, and he was like the biggest 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:05.720 athlete in the world coming out out of that season. 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:08.600 And it's so my opic. Like both those guys helped 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:11.600 burnish Tiger's legend and they helped they helped get fans 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:13.600 excited about him. They helped fill in the gaps on 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:16.280 his story, like Tiger was making enough money, why would 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:18.480 he be gruds? You know, Tim rosa fort a small 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:21.400 advance on a on a golf book, Like it's to me, 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.200 it's so bizarre. And do you know the story about 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:27.839 about Tim covering a tiger and Earl at Newport at 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:32.720 the second U s m uh, it depends what story 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:37.200 you're talking about. Enlightened me, partner, Well, the part I'm 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:41.199 trying to get you started on is uh is Earl 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:44.160 lifting the trophy at thet when when it was all over. 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:46.720 When after Tiger had defeated defeat a Marucci for a 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:48.640 second U s M. When he said that my son 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:51.160 will win fourteen major championships, that was part of it. 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:53.960 Can you feel a son on the rest of or 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:56.000 maybe you don't know, I'm imagining you might, or maybe 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:58.760 you don't cover that tournament. That that was before I 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:05.600 was still getting told to perform some anatomical impossibilities from 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:09.719 people like Bobby boy uh and uh Roberto Album. I 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:12.559 was still covering baseball. Hey hawk, I've seen Bobby Bonney 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:15.120 in recent years, and those anatomical things that you're talking about. 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:17.840 He can't even think about him. He's so large. So 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:20.960 who's getting the last lap? Here? Anyway? Just to briefly 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:23.240 finish up my own little self, you know, I was 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:24.720 trying to wind you up, but I didn't realize that. 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:27.640 And it doesn't take much. You know, this is part 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.600 of the legend of Rosa, Forden and Tiger and this 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:32.600 will only be interesting in the three of us. And 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:37.360 you know, uh, maybe being sickle, he's listening. Um, but 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:40.240 so Tim has been covering tegraph for a while. You 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:42.240 know the chap reverse, don't you where I'm going I 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:46.199 do not even bother Michael, You're eight miles down the road. 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:49.679 You gotta finish, right, you gotta now, you gotta finish. 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:53.840 That's the Detroit thing. Eight miles Okay. So uh so, 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:57.800 I don't know the exact quote. I was there myself. 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:00.199 I think the quote goes like this. He lists or 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:03.080 lift the trophy and says, I hope Bobby Jones is 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:06.080 spinning in his grip. I hope Bobby Jones is spinning 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:07.960 in his grave knowing this stove was going to a 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:09.880 black man's home for another year. But a little bit 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:13.320 more profane than that. Anyway, Tim's got it somewhere deep 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:15.880 in the story, but he's using it, and the s 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:18.880 I editors took it, and you know, period new graph, 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:21.920 he's gonna win fourteen Earl, period new paragraph. And now 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:24.080 it was the kicker or was way upon the story 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:26.840 was one expreiment the other. You know, Bobby Jones kissed 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:28.760 my ass, blah blah bla. This show was going to 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:32.080 a black man's home for another for another year. And 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:35.640 of course Tiger and Earle, but probably Earl. Tiger probably 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:37.720 thought it was funny. Earl hated it. And I think 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:41.400 that was the beginning of the end for for Tim 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:43.560 with with the Woods is even though he went out 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:46.960 of his way to be so so fair and scrupulous 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:50.640 with him and reported with a lot of integrity, what's 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:53.480 amazing is that Tim got the saint treatment as Charlie 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:57.200 Pierce and Charlotte Pierce completely through Tiger round the bus. 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:01.080 I mean, there was no middle ground. You were either uh, 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:04.480 Tiger would either talk to you or he he loathed you. 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:09.040 And uh, it wasn't the process wasn't quite fair. But 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:13.440 then Al and I have talked about this many times. 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:16.280 That is very telling, and that is telling about his 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:19.000 whole thing. Or it's either you're either on Tigers team 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:20.880 or you're off Tiger team, and there is no other 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:23.040 area to be. And of course we can't be on 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:25.800 a team, but a lot of people can. His competitors, 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:29.360 you know, Zack Johnson can't be on team Tiger. He's 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:32.240 not Tiger's enemy, but he's trying to beat Tiger too. 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:33.760 And if he's not gonna beat him, he's gonna try 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:35.840 to make you know, the best checking can. But Tiger 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:37.600 cannot see the world that way. And of course I 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:40.440 think it comes out of a military perspective, and it 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:43.320 was very, very very effective for him. But now this 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:45.800 new Tigers, like, oh yeah, I miss having dinner with 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:48.880 the guys. Like what I mean? Have you ever in 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:51.640 your life seemed tire eating out anywhere? You've seen everybody, 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:54.160 You've seen Ernie's seen John Dale, You've seen everybody. You've 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:55.880 never seen Tiger. I've never seen Tiger. Have you ever 0:15:55.880 --> 0:16:00.640 seen Tiger eating dinner? Have you Huck ever? I never did, 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:04.200 I ever saw him eating a meal with anybody but himself, 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:09.000 except for the memorable exchange in the Dallas in the 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:13.080 last Collina's dining room at Allen Uh, he wrote in 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:17.640 the book, when Phil came schmaltzing up with his tray 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:21.560 like some nerd in the eighth in the Junior High cafeteria, 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:24.880 Can I join you guys? And then he sits down Tiger. 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:30.000 That's what made another thing I loved in Allen's book, 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:35.960 the banter between Michelson and Woods at state dinner, which 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:39.800 I had heard. Um, I think that's really when it 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:45.760 kind of started turning around the whole Michaelson Woods, I 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.640 don't know if it's a friendship, that's probably too strong 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:54.760 a word Tiger's ability to tolerate Phil uh seemed to 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:58.400 him prease after he'd gone through his first wave of 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:01.720 problems in the early times, not to mention, and I 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:03.600 I kind of knew it at the time, but I 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:05.440 had forgotten all some of the details as I got 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:08.240 into the into the weeds on this book. Was that 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:12.680 there was that period where Phil started beating Tiger with regularity, 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:15.440 and it really started in in you know, eight oh 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:19.159 nine and for about five years, and of course the 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:22.880 scandal change Tiger's trajectory. We all know that, you know, 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:26.840 but uh, Phil was beating Tiger every time they were 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.399 paired together, and and it kind of culminates at Pebble 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:31.280 Beach in two thousand and twelve when it's really the 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:34.280 worst beat down of Tiger's career, and Phil shoot sixty 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:36.600 four and Tiger shoot seventy five and Phil just blows 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:40.240 him off the golf course. So I think even in 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:43.000 those victories, Phil still bit his tongue and knew was 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:47.040 not a good idea to taunt Tiger, And I think 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:50.280 that increased Tiger's respect for Phil, that he beat him, 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.399 but he also kept it classy, and and that that 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:56.160 definitely shifted that dynamic a little bit between them, and 0:17:57.080 --> 0:17:59.119 I think that's how that's how you get Tiger's respect 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:03.160 might not sacking down, and and there was a period 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:05.639 of Phil retreated, but you know, kind of later in 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:07.639 their relationship he started giving it back to Tiger. I 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:10.680 think that helped their relationship strangely, but if they if 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:12.960 they have anything like a real friendship, you couldn't prove 0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:15.320 it by tigers proscarfance this week where he says, quote, 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:17.640 I haven't reached out to him. I mean, here's Phil 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:20.879 probably the lowest period of his of his life that 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:23.880 we would that we would know about any way. And uh, 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:27.520 if Tiger go ahead hook no, no, if if if 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:31.080 if he has some sort of friend especially in this 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:33.200 day of texting, I hope you're okay. If you want 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:35.560 to talk, let me know. That's easy as could be. 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:38.920 And uh, he eppenently hasn't done that by by by 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:41.840 what by what he's describing. So I think that's very telling. 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:44.320 I'm loath to disagree with that on anything Hawk, But 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:47.240 in this instance, I think we've been I think we've 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:49.800 been fed a story by both sides, you know, leading 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:51.960 up to that Las Vegas thing between the two of them. 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:55.360 I don't think there's anything there except for actually animosity 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:58.280 for the uh not fill to Tiger, because I think 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:02.520 Phil generally is rateful for all the Tiger's done for golf, 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:06.840 I e. Raised versus immeasurably. But I think Tiger has 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:10.360 no use for philm Well. I mean, it's a very 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:14.480 interesting situation. Saw you guys, I you remember, I mean 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:17.119 twenty years and twenty two years ago, it was Tiger 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:21.880 beefing about the tours using his likeness and and all 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:28.560 the very same proprietary ownership things that Phil complained about 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:32.399 at the first stage of his uh you know, grand 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:36.760 gripe against the tour h a few months ago. It 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:45.240 was Phil Tiger had a problem with the tour making 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:47.080 a bunch of money off and the saying it's just 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:52.919 an identical argument. What's what's kind of somewhat stunning is 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:56.840 that Woods wouldn't even reach out to him and say so, 0:19:57.080 --> 0:20:00.080 like poke fun at him, like I bitched about that 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:04.040 when you were still trying to win your sixth tour tournament, 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:11.399 right it was. Tiger can be very very snarky, very witty. 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:15.800 He rarely reaches out in a in a loving way right, 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:19.080 There's a lot of ways to transit transmit a message. 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:22.159 I'm surprised he didn't do that. Well, there there's a 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:24.920 I mean, there's a cold blooded side to Tiger. We 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:28.320 all know that. Yeah, you know, even like his his 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:31.480 pr guy Glenn Greenspan, who we all knew worked worked 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:33.359 for Tiger and stuck by him through all the different 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:36.280 all the scandals, and and then when it was when 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:38.480 he fell out of favor, he was just gone and 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:40.280 Tiger never reached out to him, right, Like that's how 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:42.280 as the story goes, Like, do you think if you 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:44.800 had someone who's who's by your side through thick and 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:47.640 thin for a decade, you would want to at least 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:51.240 personally end the relationship. But I think Tiger's somewhat conflict diverse. 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:53.760 You'd rather have other people do that sort of thing 0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:55.760 for him. And how do you have any insight into 0:20:55.840 --> 0:21:00.680 that white white white Tiger? Let Glenn Glenn go no idea? 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:06.280 I'm not surprised. I mean, uh, there's a similarity and 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:09.840 harass the only one between Tiger and Greg Norman. Every 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:15.479 relationship ship seems to end with a burning bridge. Uh uh. 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:21.719 Obviously Steinberg is the only guy that survived at all, uh, 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:26.160 Joe Lacava. I suppose as a chance in this era 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:30.520 of kinder, gentler Tiger. But they all end in flames. 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:33.520 They all end with no way across the water and 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:36.880 therefore no way back. And when when you think about 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:39.120 when you think about Steve Williams being a Tiger's wedding 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:41.880 and Tiger being at St Williams wedding, who would guess that, 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:44.720 you know, ten years whatever years later they would not 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:46.520 even be on speaking terms Now. I think they are 0:21:46.600 --> 0:21:48.919 to some degree, but certainly not like what it was 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:53.639 the best tigers. Tiger was Stevie's best man. He was 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:56.879 not just a passive attendant. I mean, he played a 0:21:56.960 --> 0:22:00.160 very important role. Like that's wild. I don't know too 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:03.200 many people who won't even talk to their best man, 0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:06.000