Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything there except for actually animosity
Speaker 1: for the Uh not Phil to Tiger, because I think
Speaker 1: Phil genuinely is grateful for all the Tiger's done for golf.
Speaker 1: I e. Raised verses immeasurably, But I think Tiger has
Speaker 1: no use for Phil. Put another log on the fire
Speaker 1: nobody hears get the time. Hello, Welcome back to another
Speaker 1: fire Drill podcast. This is Alan ship Duck. I have
Speaker 1: Michael Bamberger sitting to my immediate left here in the
Speaker 1: living room or rental house in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Michael, welcome,
Speaker 1: good to see you as always I know, and Uh.
Speaker 1: On the line with us is John Hawkins, a legend
Speaker 1: of the golf beat, one of the big dogs carving
Speaker 1: the tour and the two thousand's and beyond. And Johnny,
Speaker 1: thanks for joining us, my pleasure, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Guys back in the day, if you were a German
Speaker 1: hawk was there, it was a big tournament, that's right.
Speaker 1: I mean that was Williamsburg St. Jude on them all
Speaker 1: the fifth majors. I mean, it's fun. It's fun to
Speaker 1: think about those old days when you know, we were
Speaker 1: at s I and you were at Golf World and
Speaker 1: there was really a sense of competition, like people don't
Speaker 1: understand how competitive journalism is. And you never wanted to
Speaker 1: get beat by the other guy. And you guys had
Speaker 1: you guys had Tim Rosaford. There was there was there
Speaker 1: was a lot of uh of energy on that beat,
Speaker 1: like trying to trying not You had Bob Verdi, you know,
Speaker 1: we had Guarty and bad Sickle, like there was a
Speaker 1: lot of talent there and nobody wanted to pick up
Speaker 1: their magazine a few days later and realized, dang it,
Speaker 1: I got beat on this one. So those are those
Speaker 1: were fun times, you know what they were. It was
Speaker 1: a pleasure to read you guys, Prosier read you and
Speaker 1: the range of talent that you go Hi you I's
Speaker 1: had been Sickle and various others. And the thing about
Speaker 1: Hawk was much like Gary Smith's. He would ask anybody anything.
Speaker 1: He said to Curtis when he came off the course
Speaker 1: at Pinehurst, whatever year that was, I guess when Paine
Speaker 1: one the first question out of the box of curse
Speaker 1: we ever went again, Well, John, that's kind of a
Speaker 1: point to question we want to answer. No, we had
Speaker 1: to spend a lot of money to compete with spot clistiated.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you that. Thankfully it wasn't any of mine. Yeah,
Speaker 1: those were fun days. Those were fun days. Magazines were
Speaker 1: were a beautiful thing while they lasted, but they last
Speaker 1: no more for the most part. But anyway, it is
Speaker 1: funny to think about we would send our stories off
Speaker 1: and you'd have to wait three or four days to
Speaker 1: actually get the physical magazines to see what the other
Speaker 1: guys wrote. Like imagine that. Like I feel like if
Speaker 1: I post a story an hour and a half after
Speaker 1: term ends, it feels like I'm late. Like the immediacy
Speaker 1: has changed so much, has changed our jobs too. But
Speaker 1: that was weirdly, the pleasure of the whole thing was,
Speaker 1: you know, waiting on it, you know, I mean it
Speaker 1: was legendary to say, you know, wait on Jenkins or
Speaker 1: we done on herb Wind. But you know, even in
Speaker 1: our day to wait on Riley Waite and Garritt were
Speaker 1: hawk and see what he'd right. It was part of
Speaker 1: the fun of the thing that the lack of immediacy
Speaker 1: was actually part of the greatness of it. And it's hard,
Speaker 1: it would be hard for a young person actually understand
Speaker 1: what we're talking about, but it really is true. You
Speaker 1: waited for that magazine to come and it was part
Speaker 1: of the fun. Yeah, don't you think, huck, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: certainly enjoyed those days. I didn't have any problem with
Speaker 1: the weight. We didn't know that, we didn't know what
Speaker 1: other it was, right, And I wasn't a big fan
Speaker 1: of being of covering the tournament after say a major,
Speaker 1: and having to go find the magazines. They'd often be
Speaker 1: sitting in the pro shop and these bundles. Uh, and
Speaker 1: that would be the only way I would get to
Speaker 1: read the piece because there was really no internet until
Speaker 1: what round two thousand. I mean, I know it came
Speaker 1: along long before that, but uh, I got my first
Speaker 1: email address, and I I know that what time time
Speaker 1: AK was? You know, a partner bo l at the
Speaker 1: Times and they assigned his email addresses and mine was
Speaker 1: M Barmburger zero two two four. And Shipnuk says to me,
Speaker 1: he said, you know, you can probably do something in
Speaker 1: shorten that, And I said to show him that this
Speaker 1: email thing it's going to be a fad. I'm still stuck.
Speaker 1: I'm still stuck with M. Bamburger zero two two atl
Speaker 1: dot com. Way to read the Tea leaves Michael yea.
Speaker 1: But so for this conversation, I want to start by
Speaker 1: by getting into one um, Eldrick taunt Woods, because he's
Speaker 1: gonna be a huge force at this tournament. Like Tigers
Speaker 1: press commerces are now events, his practice rounds are now events.
Speaker 1: I mean the crowds that are out there following them
Speaker 1: used to be you know, come Thursday, everyone would tune
Speaker 1: into Tiger because you had to. But it's like now
Speaker 1: the second steps on the grounds, and I guess because
Speaker 1: it's perishable. We know the end could come in any moment,
Speaker 1: and people just want to reach out and touch history,
Speaker 1: and I feel like they're part of it. But uh,
Speaker 1: you know, you you were there for all of Tiger's
Speaker 1: greatest winds hawk and you had you had a lot
Speaker 1: of access to him, And uh, I guess for you
Speaker 1: this evolution of Tiger from this hardass competitor to now
Speaker 1: this beloved elder statesman and the innumerable comeback when the
Speaker 1: grand sweep of Tiger's career, what what moments stand out
Speaker 1: to you that you know, either on the golf course
Speaker 1: or a little stolen moments you shared with them. Oh
Speaker 1: my god, I could take us for an hour, but
Speaker 1: I'll spare you. I think that the relationship I had
Speaker 1: with with Woods was pretty good because he didn't like
Speaker 1: Tim Rose Afford, uh, and he didn't like a lot
Speaker 1: of guys, and I guess he trusted me. He tested
Speaker 1: me plenty, as as the anecdotes in your wonderful book
Speaker 1: will test. Actually, UH very different kind of relationship with
Speaker 1: Phil much like Alan's, by the way, But I love
Speaker 1: the book as as you guys know, and Uh recently
Speaker 1: wrote I remember Tiger remember the w g C in
Speaker 1: Atlanta in Woodstock, Georgia, like two thousand five it was.
Speaker 1: It was the one that was started in Spain and
Speaker 1: ended up in about I think it ended up in
Speaker 1: like Iceland or something. It was. It moved so often
Speaker 1: before it finally went to Funk. And I remember Tiger
Speaker 1: coming up to me afterward after he played around, and
Speaker 1: he said hawk Camarre Camara and drags me over and
Speaker 1: he pulls me into a private area. Just I man,
Speaker 1: I read that article you wrote the other day. It
Speaker 1: was so funny and I was taken aback. I'd never
Speaker 1: had Woods uh respond to anything I'd ever written on
Speaker 1: him or anybody else. And this wasn't really about him.
Speaker 1: It was just one of these pot pourri deals kind
Speaker 1: of you know, one off with the butt of bings
Speaker 1: at the end of each at the end of each graph,
Speaker 1: and that that sticks out because it showed me about
Speaker 1: something about Tiger that I roy didn't know. I think
Speaker 1: he he didn't like to be bothered at Majors, as
Speaker 1: you guys know, he'd come in and do his thing.
Speaker 1: As for as for the here and now, not only
Speaker 1: is he perishable, but he's he's really become you know,
Speaker 1: this is kind of the ultimate comeback for him, although
Speaker 1: I still think twenty nine, the twenty nineteen Masters was
Speaker 1: his eighty six Masters, much like maybe maybe it feels
Speaker 1: one p g A may turn out to be sort
Speaker 1: of the coup de gras, whatever you wanna call it.
Speaker 1: I don't think he has anything left to prove. That said,
Speaker 1: I think you get factor this week if he's if
Speaker 1: he's only taken one day off between the Masters and
Speaker 1: p GA, he's got to be in pretty good shape
Speaker 1: competitively heading in. Yeah, but you know, going back to that,
Speaker 1: that that moment where you know Tiger tapped you up
Speaker 1: for that story, like at his roote, he's a golf nerd,
Speaker 1: and he you know, he loves. He loves the game,
Speaker 1: he loves to read about the game, he loves to
Speaker 1: talk about the game. He venerates the history. So I'm
Speaker 1: not surprised that he was he was pouring over some
Speaker 1: random article in Golf World, because he's kind of this
Speaker 1: all knowing, all seeing, uh, you know figure in my mind,
Speaker 1: like he doesn't miss anything. Now, he won't often admit it,
Speaker 1: but I feel like he was. He was always watching
Speaker 1: and he was always reading, and um, this underrated part
Speaker 1: of of Tiger's persona, like he doesn't miss much. Do
Speaker 1: you remember do you remember the golf trip we went
Speaker 1: on to Ireland? What was that? Was Timie on that trip?
Speaker 1: No Man Janella Alan. It was Bistrom. It was Bistrom.
Speaker 1: Was the fourth was we brought Bastroom might not have
Speaker 1: been our best call. We'll leave that alone for the masses.
Speaker 1: I remember seeing Tiger later on that trip in in
Speaker 1: dining room at one of the those fine places we
Speaker 1: were sponging free room from and uh Tiger. It was
Speaker 1: early in the morning. He was like seven am, and
Speaker 1: Tiger had to stack of clips like had to be
Speaker 1: media stuff. I mean, I gingerly approached him after I
Speaker 1: had finished breakfast and at a time that didn't look
Speaker 1: like I'd be bothering him. I always tried to tiptoe
Speaker 1: my way over there, hoping he'd see me and either
Speaker 1: tell me to you know, g F yu or h
Speaker 1: come on over and uh, yeah, he you can't be
Speaker 1: that famous and and that and even remotely clueless. He
Speaker 1: had to keep up on everything. But anyway, I remember
Speaker 1: that that was Duval was on that trip. They were
Speaker 1: they were They had a helicopter and it was Duval.
Speaker 1: It was two thousand and two because Duval had the
Speaker 1: Claret jug he was on there. He was going to
Speaker 1: return it the next week as defending Chap and it
Speaker 1: was we were packing up our rooms and his it
Speaker 1: was in this wooded crate and it was outside his room,
Speaker 1: and I was just walking through this courtyard, and for
Speaker 1: a split second I thought about stealing it as kind
Speaker 1: of a joke. And could you imagine the panic that
Speaker 1: would have set off if Duval had lost the oldest
Speaker 1: trophy and golf like and that we could have just
Speaker 1: kept it for a few days and I had a
Speaker 1: little fun with it, but I chickened out to my
Speaker 1: everlasting regret, because I remember that there they had it
Speaker 1: was we're at the cake club? Is that everywhere? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that sounds right. I think, Yeah, Tiger was so rather,
Speaker 1: Tim was so fair with everybody. What was Tigers slaying
Speaker 1: with him? What? Why? Why? Why did why did he
Speaker 1: even have a beef with him in the first place? Michael,
Speaker 1: I think the problem Tiger had wasn't just with Tim,
Speaker 1: but with John Strady and anybody else who made a
Speaker 1: dime off of Tigers being off his likeness. Uh, and
Speaker 1: those guys wrote books on Tiger, and for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: Tiger took extreme umbrage to that. He didn't want people
Speaker 1: making any money off of his life story was the
Speaker 1: first you know him eventually kind of fell out of
Speaker 1: favor with him, and I'm sure I did at some point,
Speaker 1: although I never wrote a book on him. Um well
Speaker 1: hideas I mean, he was a co author on The
Speaker 1: Big Miss with Hank Caney, and so I just understand
Speaker 1: why they might have been upset because it's some sort
Speaker 1: of unspoken code about the player caddie relationships, like is
Speaker 1: like is it like a client privileged sort of thing?
Speaker 1: Even though I'm sure we all disagree, but I know
Speaker 1: that was Tiger's take. But I mean Stringy's book was
Speaker 1: so affectionate. It was really the first biography and he
Speaker 1: had he was writing for the Orange County Register and
Speaker 1: he just knew the family well. And like I always
Speaker 1: think that's one of the best Tiger books there is.
Speaker 1: It's hard to imagine they were upset about that. And
Speaker 1: then Rosaford like he did it in like two thousand
Speaker 1: and Tigers. He's right, and he was like the biggest
Speaker 1: athlete in the world coming out out of that season.
Speaker 1: And it's so my opic. Like both those guys helped
Speaker 1: burnish Tiger's legend and they helped they helped get fans
Speaker 1: excited about him. They helped fill in the gaps on
Speaker 1: his story, like Tiger was making enough money, why would
Speaker 1: he be gruds? You know, Tim rosa fort a small
Speaker 1: advance on a on a golf book, Like it's to me,
Speaker 1: it's so bizarre. And do you know the story about
Speaker 1: about Tim covering a tiger and Earl at Newport at
Speaker 1: the second U s m uh, it depends what story
Speaker 1: you're talking about. Enlightened me, partner, Well, the part I'm
Speaker 1: trying to get you started on is uh is Earl
Speaker 1: lifting the trophy at thet when when it was all over.
Speaker 1: When after Tiger had defeated defeat a Marucci for a
Speaker 1: second U s M. When he said that my son
Speaker 1: will win fourteen major championships, that was part of it.
Speaker 1: Can you feel a son on the rest of or
Speaker 1: maybe you don't know, I'm imagining you might, or maybe
Speaker 1: you don't cover that tournament. That that was before I
Speaker 1: was still getting told to perform some anatomical impossibilities from
Speaker 1: people like Bobby boy uh and uh Roberto Album. I
Speaker 1: was still covering baseball. Hey hawk, I've seen Bobby Bonney
Speaker 1: in recent years, and those anatomical things that you're talking about.
Speaker 1: He can't even think about him. He's so large. So
Speaker 1: who's getting the last lap? Here? Anyway? Just to briefly
Speaker 1: finish up my own little self, you know, I was
Speaker 1: trying to wind you up, but I didn't realize that.
Speaker 1: And it doesn't take much. You know, this is part
Speaker 1: of the legend of Rosa, Forden and Tiger and this
Speaker 1: will only be interesting in the three of us. And
Speaker 1: you know, uh, maybe being sickle, he's listening. Um, but
Speaker 1: so Tim has been covering tegraph for a while. You
Speaker 1: know the chap reverse, don't you where I'm going I
Speaker 1: do not even bother Michael, You're eight miles down the road.
Speaker 1: You gotta finish, right, you gotta now, you gotta finish.
Speaker 1: That's the Detroit thing. Eight miles Okay. So uh so,
Speaker 1: I don't know the exact quote. I was there myself.
Speaker 1: I think the quote goes like this. He lists or
Speaker 1: lift the trophy and says, I hope Bobby Jones is
Speaker 1: spinning in his grip. I hope Bobby Jones is spinning
Speaker 1: in his grave knowing this stove was going to a
Speaker 1: black man's home for another year. But a little bit
Speaker 1: more profane than that. Anyway, Tim's got it somewhere deep
Speaker 1: in the story, but he's using it, and the s
Speaker 1: I editors took it, and you know, period new graph,
Speaker 1: he's gonna win fourteen Earl, period new paragraph. And now
Speaker 1: it was the kicker or was way upon the story
Speaker 1: was one expreiment the other. You know, Bobby Jones kissed
Speaker 1: my ass, blah blah bla. This show was going to
Speaker 1: a black man's home for another for another year. And
Speaker 1: of course Tiger and Earle, but probably Earl. Tiger probably
Speaker 1: thought it was funny. Earl hated it. And I think
Speaker 1: that was the beginning of the end for for Tim
Speaker 1: with with the Woods is even though he went out
Speaker 1: of his way to be so so fair and scrupulous
Speaker 1: with him and reported with a lot of integrity, what's
Speaker 1: amazing is that Tim got the saint treatment as Charlie
Speaker 1: Pierce and Charlotte Pierce completely through Tiger round the bus.
Speaker 1: I mean, there was no middle ground. You were either uh,
Speaker 1: Tiger would either talk to you or he he loathed you.
Speaker 1: And uh, it wasn't the process wasn't quite fair. But
Speaker 1: then Al and I have talked about this many times.
Speaker 1: That is very telling, and that is telling about his
Speaker 1: whole thing. Or it's either you're either on Tigers team
Speaker 1: or you're off Tiger team, and there is no other
Speaker 1: area to be. And of course we can't be on
Speaker 1: a team, but a lot of people can. His competitors,
Speaker 1: you know, Zack Johnson can't be on team Tiger. He's
Speaker 1: not Tiger's enemy, but he's trying to beat Tiger too.
Speaker 1: And if he's not gonna beat him, he's gonna try
Speaker 1: to make you know, the best checking can. But Tiger
Speaker 1: cannot see the world that way. And of course I
Speaker 1: think it comes out of a military perspective, and it
Speaker 1: was very, very very effective for him. But now this
Speaker 1: new Tigers, like, oh yeah, I miss having dinner with
Speaker 1: the guys. Like what I mean? Have you ever in
Speaker 1: your life seemed tire eating out anywhere? You've seen everybody,
Speaker 1: You've seen Ernie's seen John Dale, You've seen everybody. You've
Speaker 1: never seen Tiger. I've never seen Tiger. Have you ever
Speaker 1: seen Tiger eating dinner? Have you Huck ever? I never did,
Speaker 1: I ever saw him eating a meal with anybody but himself,
Speaker 1: except for the memorable exchange in the Dallas in the
Speaker 1: last Collina's dining room at Allen Uh, he wrote in
Speaker 1: the book, when Phil came schmaltzing up with his tray
Speaker 1: like some nerd in the eighth in the Junior High cafeteria,
Speaker 1: Can I join you guys? And then he sits down Tiger.
Speaker 1: That's what made another thing I loved in Allen's book,
Speaker 1: the banter between Michelson and Woods at state dinner, which
Speaker 1: I had heard. Um, I think that's really when it
Speaker 1: kind of started turning around the whole Michaelson Woods, I
Speaker 1: don't know if it's a friendship, that's probably too strong
Speaker 1: a word Tiger's ability to tolerate Phil uh seemed to
Speaker 1: him prease after he'd gone through his first wave of
Speaker 1: problems in the early times, not to mention, and I
Speaker 1: I kind of knew it at the time, but I
Speaker 1: had forgotten all some of the details as I got
Speaker 1: into the into the weeds on this book. Was that
Speaker 1: there was that period where Phil started beating Tiger with regularity,
Speaker 1: and it really started in in you know, eight oh
Speaker 1: nine and for about five years, and of course the
Speaker 1: scandal change Tiger's trajectory. We all know that, you know,
Speaker 1: but uh, Phil was beating Tiger every time they were
Speaker 1: paired together, and and it kind of culminates at Pebble
Speaker 1: Beach in two thousand and twelve when it's really the
Speaker 1: worst beat down of Tiger's career, and Phil shoot sixty
Speaker 1: four and Tiger shoot seventy five and Phil just blows
Speaker 1: him off the golf course. So I think even in
Speaker 1: those victories, Phil still bit his tongue and knew was
Speaker 1: not a good idea to taunt Tiger, And I think
Speaker 1: that increased Tiger's respect for Phil, that he beat him,
Speaker 1: but he also kept it classy, and and that that
Speaker 1: definitely shifted that dynamic a little bit between them, and
Speaker 1: I think that's how that's how you get Tiger's respect
Speaker 1: might not sacking down, and and there was a period
Speaker 1: of Phil retreated, but you know, kind of later in
Speaker 1: their relationship he started giving it back to Tiger. I
Speaker 1: think that helped their relationship strangely, but if they if
Speaker 1: they have anything like a real friendship, you couldn't prove
Speaker 1: it by tigers proscarfance this week where he says, quote,
Speaker 1: I haven't reached out to him. I mean, here's Phil
Speaker 1: probably the lowest period of his of his life that
Speaker 1: we would that we would know about any way. And uh,
Speaker 1: if Tiger go ahead hook no, no, if if if
Speaker 1: if he has some sort of friend especially in this
Speaker 1: day of texting, I hope you're okay. If you want
Speaker 1: to talk, let me know. That's easy as could be.
Speaker 1: And uh, he eppenently hasn't done that by by by
Speaker 1: what by what he's describing. So I think that's very telling.
Speaker 1: I'm loath to disagree with that on anything Hawk, But
Speaker 1: in this instance, I think we've been I think we've
Speaker 1: been fed a story by both sides, you know, leading
Speaker 1: up to that Las Vegas thing between the two of them.
Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything there except for actually animosity
Speaker 1: for the uh not fill to Tiger, because I think
Speaker 1: Phil generally is rateful for all the Tiger's done for golf,
Speaker 1: I e. Raised versus immeasurably. But I think Tiger has
Speaker 1: no use for philm Well. I mean, it's a very
Speaker 1: interesting situation. Saw you guys, I you remember, I mean
Speaker 1: twenty years and twenty two years ago, it was Tiger
Speaker 1: beefing about the tours using his likeness and and all
Speaker 1: the very same proprietary ownership things that Phil complained about
Speaker 1: at the first stage of his uh you know, grand
Speaker 1: gripe against the tour h a few months ago. It
Speaker 1: was Phil Tiger had a problem with the tour making
Speaker 1: a bunch of money off and the saying it's just
Speaker 1: an identical argument. What's what's kind of somewhat stunning is
Speaker 1: that Woods wouldn't even reach out to him and say so,
Speaker 1: like poke fun at him, like I bitched about that
Speaker 1: when you were still trying to win your sixth tour tournament,
Speaker 1: right it was. Tiger can be very very snarky, very witty.
Speaker 1: He rarely reaches out in a in a loving way right,
Speaker 1: There's a lot of ways to transit transmit a message.
Speaker 1: I'm surprised he didn't do that. Well, there there's a
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a cold blooded side to Tiger. We
Speaker 1: all know that. Yeah, you know, even like his his
Speaker 1: pr guy Glenn Greenspan, who we all knew worked worked
Speaker 1: for Tiger and stuck by him through all the different
Speaker 1: all the scandals, and and then when it was when
Speaker 1: he fell out of favor, he was just gone and
Speaker 1: Tiger never reached out to him, right, Like that's how
Speaker 1: as the story goes, Like, do you think if you
Speaker 1: had someone who's who's by your side through thick and
Speaker 1: thin for a decade, you would want to at least
Speaker 1: personally end the relationship. But I think Tiger's somewhat conflict diverse.
Speaker 1: You'd rather have other people do that sort of thing
Speaker 1: for him. And how do you have any insight into
Speaker 1: that white white white Tiger? Let Glenn Glenn go no idea?
Speaker 1: I'm not surprised. I mean, uh, there's a similarity and
Speaker 1: harass the only one between Tiger and Greg Norman. Every
Speaker 1: relationship ship seems to end with a burning bridge. Uh uh.
Speaker 1: Obviously Steinberg is the only guy that survived at all, uh,
Speaker 1: Joe Lacava. I suppose as a chance in this era
Speaker 1: of kinder, gentler Tiger. But they all end in flames.
Speaker 1: They all end with no way across the water and
Speaker 1: therefore no way back. And when when you think about
Speaker 1: when you think about Steve Williams being a Tiger's wedding
Speaker 1: and Tiger being at St Williams wedding, who would guess that,
Speaker 1: you know, ten years whatever years later they would not
Speaker 1: even be on speaking terms Now. I think they are
Speaker 1: to some degree, but certainly not like what it was
Speaker 1: the best tigers. Tiger was Stevie's best man. He was
Speaker 1: not just a passive attendant. I mean, he played a
Speaker 1: very important role. Like that's wild. I don't know too
Speaker 1: many people who won't even talk to their best man,
Speaker 1: you know, a few years later, Like that's a very
Speaker 1: strange turn any relationship, right, And the relationship disintegrated because
Speaker 1: Stevie worked for Adam Scott. I mean, is that the
Speaker 1: whole story? I mean, that's what we were allowed to believe.
Speaker 1: That's not really well he was, that was part of it.
Speaker 1: But when when the whole scandal broke after Tiger around
Speaker 1: over the fire, hydrant. And as the story goes, Stevie
Speaker 1: begged for Tiger to make some public statement that you
Speaker 1: know that Steve Williams was not a party to this,
Speaker 1: and he didn't know about it, because Steve is a
Speaker 1: very black and white kind of self righteous guy, and
Speaker 1: it was just assumed that anyone who was in Tiger's
Speaker 1: orbit was kind of facilitating all these secret liaisons and everything,
Speaker 1: and and and Steve Williams wanting to be exonerated of that.
Speaker 1: And of course Tiger never did that, and I think
Speaker 1: that was really the source, and Adam Scott was the symptom,
Speaker 1: not the cause. Well, I never even believe that, you
Speaker 1: know how your point earlier about you know, you're either
Speaker 1: on the team or off the team. There's no you know,
Speaker 1: black or white, there's take a side. I've never bought
Speaker 1: that whole Adam Scott thing. I think when Steve Williams
Speaker 1: went to work for Adam Scott that week, he was
Speaker 1: quitting because you can't work. You know, Adam Scott is
Speaker 1: the enemy. He's trying to beat me in majors. Even
Speaker 1: though I'm not playing this week, it doesn't matter. You're
Speaker 1: still you're consorting, working and working for the enemy, and
Speaker 1: I think Steve Williams had to know uh that even
Speaker 1: working that one off, even if he quote had permission,
Speaker 1: which I don't know the ins and the outs of that,
Speaker 1: that was tandem out to quitting. Disagree with that. So
Speaker 1: certainly always seems there's a public reason and then one
Speaker 1: that's the real one can be fed. Oh here here's
Speaker 1: another one that we might want to discuss. How about
Speaker 1: how about Butch. I mean, Tiger had all the town
Speaker 1: in the world, but Butch, by all accounts, including Tigers,
Speaker 1: did bring him to another level. And that swinging two
Speaker 1: thousand speaks for itself. Um, And once Butcher was out,
Speaker 1: Butch was out, and I think I don't really Maybe
Speaker 1: one of you guys recalled, I don't recall the ins
Speaker 1: and the I think Butch quit on Tiger, but I
Speaker 1: don't recall that the tales of it. Yeah, it was
Speaker 1: just it became afraid relationship. I think Tiger resented Butch's
Speaker 1: high profile in the media, and he did feel like
Speaker 1: Butch was making money off of him, which he kind
Speaker 1: of had to because Tiger was only paying a fifty
Speaker 1: grand a year and Butch was leveraging the fame in
Speaker 1: different ways, but that's his golf schools and his and
Speaker 1: the things on the side, and and somehow that bothered Tiger,
Speaker 1: like it was Tiger demand it's it's sort of trump
Speaker 1: and like he demanded blind loyalty and exclusivity, but he
Speaker 1: wouldn't give it back. And so yeah, I think I
Speaker 1: remember Butcher Butch saying that he was offered a million
Speaker 1: dollars to write a book about Tiger, not a tell
Speaker 1: all at all, more like how I teach Tiger Woods
Speaker 1: how to play golfer? How I did while he was
Speaker 1: still working for him, And and Butch wisely went to
Speaker 1: Tiger and said, I've been offered this sum of money.
Speaker 1: I don't know the exact sum, but I think it
Speaker 1: might have a million dollars certainly would be reasonable or believable.
Speaker 1: And the and and the answer from Tiger was, you know,
Speaker 1: you do what you want, but I prefer If he didn't,
Speaker 1: well that's means, don't do the book if you want
Speaker 1: to keep your job. And and Bush didn't. But that's
Speaker 1: just how the Tiger demands complete fidelity. It's or use
Speaker 1: the word of the moment galty, which was an outlier,
Speaker 1: and that he talked freely about Tiger and the relationship
Speaker 1: and the things that they worked on. Not every day,
Speaker 1: but certainly I think Butch probably talked himself out of
Speaker 1: that job to a certain extent. I would also point out, however,
Speaker 1: that Tiger there probably wasn't a whole lot more Tiger
Speaker 1: was going to get out of Butch, Um, Well, how
Speaker 1: about how about just keep doing what you're doing. Don't
Speaker 1: change anything, don't don't put don't put on, don't go
Speaker 1: to the gym so much, don't put on any weight.
Speaker 1: Your body is perfect, the two thousand bodies perfect. Swing
Speaker 1: is perfect. Let's just keep a good thing going. But
Speaker 1: I think, why would you, Why would you change? Because
Speaker 1: not if you want to us open by well, but
Speaker 1: here's the thing. I mean, Tiger always had to be
Speaker 1: working towards that. He always had to be improving. That's
Speaker 1: what got him out of bitter. But he was this
Speaker 1: quest to get better. He didn't want to just do
Speaker 1: maintenance and try and keep the same thing. He wanted
Speaker 1: to get better. And it's an admirable mindset, it is.
Speaker 1: That's what that's what takes you the mountaintop. But you
Speaker 1: wish when you when you get to the mountain top,
Speaker 1: you could just stay there. But so many you know,
Speaker 1: whether it's Iatan Baker, Finns, it was Puddrick, just seven degree,
Speaker 1: that drive to get there. You can't just shut it off.
Speaker 1: He so believed that thing. If you're not getting better,
Speaker 1: you're getting worse. And I mean, I guess as a
Speaker 1: truism it's true. But if you're winning US by fifteen,
Speaker 1: you can win a bunch more US opens by six
Speaker 1: and five and four and three and two and one
Speaker 1: and still catch Big Jack. Well, yeah, that's true. But
Speaker 1: and Tiger would argue, And Steve Williams has always said
Speaker 1: this that the Tiger in oh six oh seven was
Speaker 1: better than Tiger in two thousand, that he had more control,
Speaker 1: he had more shots, and he may have lost a
Speaker 1: little bit of explosiveness, but the and maybe his ceiling
Speaker 1: was not quite his eye, but the floor was much higher,
Speaker 1: and he played at a much higher level. And you know,
Speaker 1: and he was winning like crazy. He wasn't winning by fifteen.
Speaker 1: So in Tiger's mind, maybe he had to leave butch
Speaker 1: to keep evolving. I mean, the rest of US, I
Speaker 1: don't think so. I think that you know, the body
Speaker 1: was giving on just some degree because not nothing to
Speaker 1: do with Butch, but what Tiger was doing to the
Speaker 1: body and then the body couldn't make the swing that
Speaker 1: Butch loved. We all love so much because it was
Speaker 1: so beautiful to watch. The body looked weird and then
Speaker 1: a weird swing had to be constructed that would work
Speaker 1: with that money. Yeah, but I mean it is it
Speaker 1: is frustrating your Patrick Harrington and you win three majors
Speaker 1: in thirteen or fourteen months. I just keep doing what
Speaker 1: you're doing. But he doesn't have He couldn't shut it
Speaker 1: off either. I mean, there's a lot of guys who
Speaker 1: they just that they're on the never ending quest and
Speaker 1: I respected even though in hindsight it can look like
Speaker 1: it can look like folly. But I will say it's
Speaker 1: fun to excavate all these old Tiger stories because we're
Speaker 1: at this age of haggeography where a lot of there's
Speaker 1: this whole generation who who have come up revering Tiger.
Speaker 1: They weren't that close to him during the years when
Speaker 1: he was, you know, pretty much the biggest thing in
Speaker 1: the world as far as his fame and the adulation
Speaker 1: was untouchable, and then the scandals changed everything, and now
Speaker 1: he's he's come back so many times he's been humanized,
Speaker 1: and he tries, he tries a little harder to appear
Speaker 1: softer and gentler. But we kind of know the real Tiger.
Speaker 1: We lived it for before everyone else came on the scene.
Speaker 1: So you forget about some of these these these these
Speaker 1: old battles and these old quirks. It's how about that
Speaker 1: quote from Armin in the HBO special where somebody says that, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, I'd like to get a piece of Tiger.
Speaker 1: I wish I could get a piece of Tygers Prime,
Speaker 1: and Norman says, the fuck you do. It's a classic.
Speaker 1: It's a classic. I remember telling Michael on the phone,
Speaker 1: it's been a couple of years now, that when he
Speaker 1: was lying on his back in seventeen that summer, and
Speaker 1: I think he looked up to the sky. I mean
Speaker 1: he was already like this twelve hours a day, uh,
Speaker 1: if not twenty four uh and saying, you know, basically
Speaker 1: coming to terms with the big eyes, saying, if you
Speaker 1: get me out of this bed and you get me
Speaker 1: back on green grass, standing up and hitting balls, I'll
Speaker 1: I'll change. And I think that's what we what we've
Speaker 1: come to enjoy. Might be too strong were. But the
Speaker 1: metamorphosis of Tiger into the kinder, gentler sort is an
Speaker 1: interesting one because you would think that a guy whose
Speaker 1: blood ran that Chili seven until he was about what,
Speaker 1: until he until his life came to pieces. The transformation
Speaker 1: was so dramatic it's hard to understand. For those who
Speaker 1: weren't old enough for a part of it before oh nine,
Speaker 1: they would have a very difficult time understanding what we're
Speaker 1: talking about. And if you were incarcerated in two thousand
Speaker 1: nine and he didn't hear anything about Tiger, you'd have
Speaker 1: a hard time. I'm believing that he's a vanilla cupcake nowadays.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just so weird, that so market and
Speaker 1: I don't know how manufacturer it is well that I'm
Speaker 1: kind of glad to use that word hawk, because I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, we all remember the Buick ad, the Nike ads,
Speaker 1: the Bridgestone adds, the press conferences. One of my you know,
Speaker 1: starting points of Tiger is, you know, forget about Tiger
Speaker 1: and the golf course that stands by itself for all time,
Speaker 1: but off the golf course, Tiger is one of the
Speaker 1: greatest actors the world has ever seen. I really do
Speaker 1: believe that and uh So, with respect to all that
Speaker 1: you're saying, I have a different view. I think Tiger
Speaker 1: has worked masterly to manage his public image, and I
Speaker 1: think it would be impossible for any of us to
Speaker 1: understand how hard it is to and I say this
Speaker 1: with a lot of empathy, all the empathy that I have,
Speaker 1: how hard it actually is to be Tiger Woods. Oh,
Speaker 1: I wow, I agree with you on that. I mean,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't want it. I wouldn't want any of that.
Speaker 1: I think he's he is, to me, living proof that
Speaker 1: fame is a drug. Uh and he overdoes back there
Speaker 1: in two thousand nine, and the rest is the rest
Speaker 1: is history forgotten. It's a drug, and it's a prison.
Speaker 1: We we tend to remember the most real you know,
Speaker 1: it's just it's it's It may end up being the
Speaker 1: same thing with Phil, who knows, although Phil seems to
Speaker 1: be in a much hotter water than Tiger ever was.
Speaker 1: I don't know which is which is crazy because Tiger
Speaker 1: broke actual laws, you know, with his d u I
Speaker 1: and all that, and feel has only broken some unwritten rules.
Speaker 1: And yet it does feel like like it's it's in somebody.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be harder to feel for Phil to come
Speaker 1: all the way back, which is wild, because I mean,
Speaker 1: Tiger was on the back page of the New York
Speaker 1: Post twenty days in a row. Like if you remember
Speaker 1: the salaciousness of that scandal and the intensity and the
Speaker 1: vanity fair pictorials of all the girls and all of
Speaker 1: that stuff, like it's it's forgotten now, but it was
Speaker 1: a wild happened. Yeah, he wishes it was the backpage
Speaker 1: because that's the sports page. He was on the front
Speaker 1: place above page. Right, that's well said, like, um, and
Speaker 1: I guess you know Tiger was lucky that was just
Speaker 1: before the dawn of Twitter. Really, like I didn't, I didn't.
Speaker 1: That's what caught me on Twitter in early two thousand
Speaker 1: and ten, Like he just That'scampa came out just before
Speaker 1: the height of social media, and I think that that
Speaker 1: helped helped it kind of fade away in the collective
Speaker 1: memory a little faster. But like the for of those
Speaker 1: who you know, lived through it, like it was hard
Speaker 1: to believe you could ever put that in the rear
Speaker 1: view mirror. But Tiger has pretty effectively. Uh it's hockey,
Speaker 1: You've got You've got a good rapport with Phil. Uh
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've been talking to about all
Speaker 1: In in more recent years. But what would you advise
Speaker 1: Phil if you could, if if you're I mean your
Speaker 1: a reporter, and you might say that's not quote might play.
Speaker 1: But you know, we also have personal relationships a lot
Speaker 1: of these people. What would you say to him? I
Speaker 1: tell him that I tell him with after probably I
Speaker 1: probably need a couple of shots of whiskey before I
Speaker 1: walked into the room. But I tell him that he
Speaker 1: asked to completely disclose. He has to tell the complete truth.
Speaker 1: The same thing with Norman. I mean, Norman makes that
Speaker 1: ridiculous comment about the SHOWGI Great Normal. Was just too
Speaker 1: ignorant to understand the magnitude of that situation as it
Speaker 1: related to so many people across the world. As for Phil,
Speaker 1: you come out, you say I've got a problem. Actually
Speaker 1: I've got a couple of problems, but I want I
Speaker 1: need to settle this one first. Uh. I think it's
Speaker 1: fairly evident that money played a huge role. I don't
Speaker 1: want to get a suit here. But although if Alan
Speaker 1: can't get us suit, then nobody can. The jury is
Speaker 1: out on that one. It's it's early days. Well, there's
Speaker 1: still plenty of time. But I think you've got to
Speaker 1: come completely clean. You've got to you've got to bear
Speaker 1: your soul. You've got to stand naked in front of
Speaker 1: the world and say, Hi, my name is Phil and
Speaker 1: I got a problem. What what mechanism would you do it?
Speaker 1: And would you have a press conference? Would you do
Speaker 1: sixty minutes with Jim Nance? What? What would you does?
Speaker 1: Barbed water still alive? I don't even know that. I
Speaker 1: you know, I would try to do it. You know how,
Speaker 1: when it's really something really important, you don't text theree email,
Speaker 1: you pick up the phone I think you're taking it, uh,
Speaker 1: or or if it's a really big deal, you do
Speaker 1: it in person. I think he's got to do it.
Speaker 1: I think he's got to do it with I love
Speaker 1: the idea of doing it on sixty minutes or or
Speaker 1: or like a blue curtain, a big blue curtain hill
Speaker 1: emerge from and just you gotta see him. You gotta
Speaker 1: be able to see him. You gotta be able to
Speaker 1: watch every every facial tick and how he reacts to everything.
Speaker 1: And he's gotta he's got to make him. He's got
Speaker 1: to avail himself to some very very difficult questions. Until then,
Speaker 1: he's he's really not going to be forgiven. Look twenty all,
Speaker 1: the hardcore Phil legion is never gonna think he did
Speaker 1: anything wrong. They're like the folks who stormed the capitol. Okay.
Speaker 1: Then you've got the people who the that don't really care,
Speaker 1: that don't really know what he did. They just appreciate
Speaker 1: him for his golf and all the enjoyment he brought
Speaker 1: to them as a player. And then you've got that
Speaker 1: middle sector, I don't know fifty six of all people
Speaker 1: who might be interested in such a matter probably need
Speaker 1: to see how Phil reacts in his first public appearance,
Speaker 1: regardless of the context, and see how he reacts to
Speaker 1: at all. Hey, that's why I didn't show up at
Speaker 1: Southern It couldn't show up at Southern Hills. That was
Speaker 1: not possible. It certainly wasn't even remotely practical. You don't
Speaker 1: show up in a golf tournament, uh and turn it
Speaker 1: into a confessional, right, this is this is what his
Speaker 1: problems were. Multifold. He committed Uh, he committed crimes of code.
Speaker 1: And who knows where this thing's gonna end? I mean, uh,
Speaker 1: he the way he talked about the tour alone was
Speaker 1: probably probably his biggest sin, right, I mean, he made
Speaker 1: all this money over thirty years on the PGA tour
Speaker 1: and now he's basically well not quite defaming it, but
Speaker 1: doing his best and uh, well it's it's pretty rich.
Speaker 1: If you're over in Saudi Arabia taking a bloated appearance
Speaker 1: for to accuse the tour of obnoxious greed like that,
Speaker 1: you're sort of telling on yourself in that in that scenario,
Speaker 1: like I hear what you're saying like that, especially from
Speaker 1: his colleagues, Like that's the original sin is that you
Speaker 1: know that Phil was was essentially working against their own
Speaker 1: interests because you know, if this, if this Saudi tour
Speaker 1: succeeds and they get a big TV deal and then
Speaker 1: they start signing up big corporate partners like Rolex, like
Speaker 1: that's going to siphon money away from the tour, the
Speaker 1: PGA tour and all of a sudden, like phils directly
Speaker 1: threatening the livelihoods of most of the guys on tour. Now,
Speaker 1: some of the top stars could could get cherry picked
Speaker 1: and play in Saudi Arabia, but all the guys who
Speaker 1: are thirty to two on the money list, like they
Speaker 1: they're not have that opportunities. You wouldn't think so he was.
Speaker 1: He was threatening their livelihoods, and that's why the players
Speaker 1: are upset. Yeah, understood, But but it seems to run.
Speaker 1: It's run all through the golf community. I mean Dave
Speaker 1: Stockton saying that he wasn't missed at the PGA Champions
Speaker 1: dinner last night. That's Stockton is not exactly the mainest
Speaker 1: guy whoever lived, And it's like, no, he wasn't. It's
Speaker 1: it's almost like everybody has a license to take a
Speaker 1: shot at the guy, and he does he deserve it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I suppose it's pretty easy to make a case that
Speaker 1: he does. Um, what he did flew in the face
Speaker 1: of all rational behavior as it relates to being a
Speaker 1: professional golfer. Uh. Never mind the fact that he's made
Speaker 1: what for how much a lot of money? He's made
Speaker 1: eight hundred million dollars over the course of his thirty
Speaker 1: year career, at least that was the estimate I saw.
Speaker 1: That's uh for him to have any perceived, any real
Speaker 1: financial problems that might have led to this. Uh, dallly
Speaker 1: answer to this relationship with the Saudis boy, it just
Speaker 1: it runs deep and it runs wide, and we don't
Speaker 1: know where the river ends? Very interesting. How are you
Speaker 1: consuming you know, you're you're You're not on the road
Speaker 1: as much as it used to be. How are you
Speaker 1: consuming your golf these days? Column? I'm writing a TV column.
Speaker 1: I just started about two months ago, a media column.
Speaker 1: Lets a TV column right from morning read. I write
Speaker 1: once a week. I'd love more work, but it's not easy.
Speaker 1: It's not easy to find work, especially when you are
Speaker 1: known as a maybe a bit of a sniper or uh.
Speaker 1: I want to write columns. I like to write. I
Speaker 1: don't think the game has nearly enough of that stuff.
Speaker 1: And you know that's that's what's missing from the old days.
Speaker 1: It's the critical element. Everybody's in bed with everybody else
Speaker 1: now it's it's really it's not covered the way the
Speaker 1: NFL it's covered. I mean it's it's just not covered
Speaker 1: like like the rest of professional sports are covered. I mean, Michael,
Speaker 1: you live got the Sixers are are dirt right now.
Speaker 1: I mean they lose to the to the who I mean,
Speaker 1: they get trashed. They did everything they could to put
Speaker 1: together a team that could make a run for the
Speaker 1: NBA championship. They were unsuccessful. Now the run town, we
Speaker 1: don't right right exactly, and we don't have that type
Speaker 1: of of objectivity or journalistic sensibility and golf. It's kind
Speaker 1: of weird when the players when the when we had
Speaker 1: actually more access to the players and a better report
Speaker 1: with them, it was actually easier to be honest in
Speaker 1: our reporting about what they were actually like. And now
Speaker 1: that we don't really know them because they're you know,
Speaker 1: they're they're so quarantined, it's harder to and the courage
Speaker 1: is far more bland. It's it's an I've never thought
Speaker 1: of it that way, but it is a very odd conundrum,
Speaker 1: as you've just described well, because so much, so much
Speaker 1: of the coverage is comes from the tour itself, and
Speaker 1: then you go to a tournament now and there's more
Speaker 1: PGA Tour social media staffers and there are actual reporters,
Speaker 1: and then there is an element of the golf media
Speaker 1: that you know, the term fanboy has been attached to
Speaker 1: them and and whether that's fair or not, I mean
Speaker 1: it does exist. So uh, there's for the people who
Speaker 1: are doing like old school journalism, you're in the minority.
Speaker 1: There's there's all these other elements you have to compete with,
Speaker 1: and from the agent standpoint, and maybe the players themselves
Speaker 1: they know it's much safer to go with the approved channels,
Speaker 1: which is the tour or or these other channels where
Speaker 1: you know, they're not really trying to do journalism. It's
Speaker 1: more about it's experiential and it's more about kind of
Speaker 1: being being browed up with the players and if they've
Speaker 1: obviously found audiences, and that's great, but it does make
Speaker 1: it harder for people who want to do kind of
Speaker 1: more serious objective journalism because the players are only gonna
Speaker 1: give so much time. They only have so much bandwidth
Speaker 1: for quote unquote media, and if they have these other homes,
Speaker 1: these other safe harbors, there's really nothing in it for
Speaker 1: them to to give time to people who might want
Speaker 1: to be more critical or more objective or have a
Speaker 1: little more of a John Just eye. So it is
Speaker 1: a challenge for for those of us who are left
Speaker 1: were trying to cover the sport in a more serious way,
Speaker 1: sort of getting squeezed out in in certain situations. And
Speaker 1: U said, you have to find a different way to
Speaker 1: do the job that's maybe not as access based. But
Speaker 1: as you're saying, Michael, then you don't get to know
Speaker 1: the players. There's not that intimacy, and it creates its
Speaker 1: own challenges. Look back, when you were doing that Great
Speaker 1: Goose show on on Golf Channel, was there ever any
Speaker 1: sort of limitation put on you, either spoken or unspoken,
Speaker 1: about what your view could be? Well, I think I
Speaker 1: had one thing removed from the air and the rebroadcast
Speaker 1: because it had to do with my quitting drinking. Uh.
Speaker 1: One of the shows who has taped, I don't remember.
Speaker 1: You know, I was never a guy, right, I just
Speaker 1: quit become h. I had I had stretched my childhood
Speaker 1: as long as it could, and I UH made mention
Speaker 1: to it. Uh. And because Grey Goose makes vodka for
Speaker 1: a living, that was the only thing that was ever
Speaker 1: caught in a hundred and forty episodes or whatever it was.
Speaker 1: There was never an opinion that was deemed either inappropriate
Speaker 1: or too dangerous or bad for business. That was I
Speaker 1: know that the folks who UH made the deal with
Speaker 1: the vodka company worried about I think me and maybe
Speaker 1: a couple of the other guys. And there were some
Speaker 1: changes personnel wies on the show that made it a
Speaker 1: little softer as time went on. But I was never
Speaker 1: told by Kevin Schultz my wonderful producer for all four years.
Speaker 1: I can't say that I can't do that. He couldn't
Speaker 1: take it far enough for him, and that was a
Speaker 1: wonderful experience. I mean for for people don't even know
Speaker 1: what we're talking about. This was the Gray Goose nineteenth Hole.
Speaker 1: It was this lively show on the Golf Channel basically
Speaker 1: Monday through Wednesday, when we're gonna have tournament golf. You
Speaker 1: could fill those gaps and it had a little spice
Speaker 1: and it was really debating these two to the day
Speaker 1: and it was kind of like the sports reporters remember
Speaker 1: that show, or a little like pardon my interruption, is
Speaker 1: point point counterpoint on sixty minutes for those who remember that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know now on the Golf Channel, like the
Speaker 1: Major weeks is great. You know, there's there's there is
Speaker 1: a lot of opinion because they do to live from
Speaker 1: but otherwise week to week, I don't think they're looking
Speaker 1: for that that that kind of that kind of edgy content.
Speaker 1: You know, they're they're kind of a broadcasts partner of
Speaker 1: the tour and it doesn't seem like they're welcoming criticism
Speaker 1: of the product. And uh, you know it's that's kind
Speaker 1: of what we're talking about earlier, Like the whole tone
Speaker 1: of the golf media has shifted, because back when we
Speaker 1: were there in the nineties and the two thousands, it
Speaker 1: was a lot of newspaper guys and it's a competitive
Speaker 1: business and everyone was fighting claw and to get great
Speaker 1: stories and to beat each other, and and there really
Speaker 1: it really was a beat like you're talking about Hawk,
Speaker 1: Like if if you're covering the Yankees, you know, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of people and everyone and there's an energy there.
Speaker 1: And and then of course there was structural changes to
Speaker 1: the whole industry that affected everyone, but especially on the
Speaker 1: golf beat because it was a big city newspaper started
Speaker 1: contracting in the two thousand's, the first guy to go
Speaker 1: was was was the golf reporter because they still had
Speaker 1: to cover their football and basketball and baseball teams. But
Speaker 1: like I remember, used to roll up and and every
Speaker 1: big city newspaper had a really talented writer, you know,
Speaker 1: from Dallas, from Orlando, from l A, obviously Chicago, like
Speaker 1: at Cleveland, you name it. Like these guys covered the
Speaker 1: game full time. And you'd go in the press room
Speaker 1: and there was big egos and there was a lot
Speaker 1: of talent, and it was it was cool man like,
Speaker 1: I'd love that energy. Uh. And one by one they
Speaker 1: started to disappear, and and they've never really been replaced.
Speaker 1: Remember let me let me throw this guy at you.
Speaker 1: Remember back in nine when when the four guys, the
Speaker 1: Brookline four rebelled against the uh the PGA practice of
Speaker 1: not paying the players. Remember how hard Lindsey Comb and
Speaker 1: all of Chicago column just ripped the players. I mean
Speaker 1: it was it was, it was a little they were
Speaker 1: driving a little bit blind. I mean, there were It
Speaker 1: was a realistic issue and that there were two sides
Speaker 1: to it. And ultimately the players have got their way.
Speaker 1: They they found a nice compromise and money would be
Speaker 1: donated charity, and that's a practice that continues to this day.
Speaker 1: But those guys were, oh my god, they were they
Speaker 1: were uh quartet. They were the collective pariah in the
Speaker 1: golf universe there for for good month. Yeah. Yeah, because
Speaker 1: I grew up admiring Dave Anderson at the times, you know,
Speaker 1: and then later got to know him. Did you have
Speaker 1: a guy like that? You know? I worked with John
Speaker 1: Steadman at the very beginning, a little loopy, Uh, not
Speaker 1: nearly as grounded as Dave. I was so lucky when
Speaker 1: I was at the Ball and when Hews American from
Speaker 1: early eighty four until it closed in eighties May of
Speaker 1: eighty six. I mean those were great. Two and a
Speaker 1: half year had had a lot of guy Bernie Nicholas,
Speaker 1: Jeff Gordon, Mark Snyder onto that we just had not
Speaker 1: always not not not a ton of big names, and
Speaker 1: many of them have probably long since left the business.
Speaker 1: But boy, you know, we used to cover a lot
Speaker 1: of games, uh NFC East games, and I knew all
Speaker 1: the guys up in your market, Bill Lyons and Mark
Speaker 1: cran I mean there was there were so many great
Speaker 1: newspaper guys. I was one of those dweeves who really
Speaker 1: took it upon myself to read, uh all the newspapers.
Speaker 1: I could get my hands on all the sports sections.
Speaker 1: I could get my hands on guys like Ron Borge's
Speaker 1: or Mark him. I mean there's a million of them.
Speaker 1: They were, they were, they were all great writers. I
Speaker 1: never really had a Dave Anderson until I until I
Speaker 1: got to Golf World Slash Golf Digest, and there was
Speaker 1: Dave Anderson. But you know, my favorite, like every like
Speaker 1: many of us, Jenkins was was Jenkins was God, kind
Speaker 1: of like clapped in back in the old days. Jenkins
Speaker 1: was God. I wonder what Jenkins would think of the
Speaker 1: kinder gentler Tiger called bullshit on Are you kidding me?
Speaker 1: Was it you? Was it you who wrote on the
Speaker 1: subway well, Jenkins's God? Or maybe that was somebody else.
Speaker 1: I might have I might have grabbed this can of
Speaker 1: spray paint. He he was, he was critical, he was
Speaker 1: to the point, he was a master. And uh, you know,
Speaker 1: as hard as Rick Riley tribe will never have another one,
Speaker 1: not like that. I met a guy today who uh
Speaker 1: Tulson native, who just a fan but loved Jenkins so much.
Speaker 1: And I can't remember if it was the Oh one
Speaker 1: Open or the Oh seven p g A, but um
Speaker 1: brought a backpack that had like four Dan Jenkins books
Speaker 1: and somehow talked his way into the pressure and got
Speaker 1: Jenkins to sign them. All. I was like, that is
Speaker 1: an awesome story. He was more excited to meet Dan
Speaker 1: Jenkins and he was to meet any of the players
Speaker 1: in the field like that was tonight. Yeah, yeah, just yeah.
Speaker 1: I had a little book siding thing and who did
Speaker 1: you want to sign him? He wanted you just signed Jenkins. No,
Speaker 1: he just told me because we were he was we
Speaker 1: were just talking to He's just a lover of golf literature,
Speaker 1: and and I was like, man, that's mad. Respect, Like
Speaker 1: it's back a backpack full of books, like you're going
Speaker 1: to the library. But well, tul Jenkins Country, Yeah, that's right,
Speaker 1: the whole Southwest. He owned the sec. Yeah, he said
Speaker 1: something to me, this guy that I met. He said,
Speaker 1: a lot of guys can write about about golf, but
Speaker 1: Jencken's a about golf, whiskey, sex, and chicken fried steak.
Speaker 1: I said, I could maybe can do two of those
Speaker 1: at most. Absolutely. I mean some of the loudest, some
Speaker 1: of the greatest l wells of my life were courtesy
Speaker 1: of Dan Jenkins. Yeah. He um. He was more fun
Speaker 1: probably to sitting next to the press room than actually
Speaker 1: read the stuff, because a lot of stuff you couldn't
Speaker 1: get in the print. He would mutter through the corner
Speaker 1: of his mouth and you could always hear tittering around
Speaker 1: him because he was just so naturally funny and sharp.
Speaker 1: How did you ever know a cops reporter in Baltimore
Speaker 1: named John Wade Jennings. He was on the news American
Speaker 1: He when the news American clothes. He came to the
Speaker 1: inquiry He was a golf bumb like like us and uh,
Speaker 1: but he was a cops reporter and he's just a natural.
Speaker 1: Cops love talking to him. And one year I went
Speaker 1: to the Uh, some kind of sheep. I don't think
Speaker 1: Alan was there behind me? Was there? There was a sheep?
Speaker 1: Was s get together for writers hawk. You might have
Speaker 1: been there. I think I'd remember if you were. But
Speaker 1: it was in Carmel and we sat in a circle
Speaker 1: and her legs across the arms or cross and you know,
Speaker 1: we're doing the yoga thing and we're trying to close
Speaker 1: their eyes and you know, and going to some happy place.
Speaker 1: And I could not stop laughing because I was thinking
Speaker 1: about this John Way Jennings from from Baltimore who would
Speaker 1: come up to to the to the Inquirer. He came
Speaker 1: to work in a T shirt. And if he saw
Speaker 1: me they're contemplating, you know, the meaning of golf in
Speaker 1: this kind of thing, he would have laughed his ass off.
Speaker 1: And so that made me laugh uncontrollably. And then when
Speaker 1: I was asked what was so funny, and I maybe
Speaker 1: said something and they said, you know, they congratulated for
Speaker 1: being for me to being in touch with my mirth.
Speaker 1: But you know, this is this is the suic iron
Speaker 1: society society thing. But we were lucky. John Allen's a
Speaker 1: little younger, but we've been lucky that we've been able
Speaker 1: to We caught the I mean I literally caught the
Speaker 1: lesson to typewriters and uh, as you said, those guys
Speaker 1: ripped dubal and uh and who was it? Uh Tiger
Speaker 1: and o'mira and whomever else just because they didn't like it.
Speaker 1: They didn't like it, and they're gonna let you know, well,
Speaker 1: the ace of what people were used to go. Golf
Speaker 1: is a Golf is a is a is an old
Speaker 1: soul game. You know. It's it doesn't like change. It
Speaker 1: doesn't take kindly to people who who step out of line,
Speaker 1: even if they mean to improve things or do things
Speaker 1: for the better. That's part of the reason why these
Speaker 1: rival golf leagues are are considered anywhere between farcical and
Speaker 1: another F word. I think there's a there's a certain
Speaker 1: sense of reluctance to mess with the formula of that
Speaker 1: has worked for so long. H Sometimes the Palmer player
Speaker 1: Nicholas stuff can get a little old because it it
Speaker 1: is fifty years old, and the oldsters will never give
Speaker 1: the woods Is in the Michelson's and perhaps even down
Speaker 1: the road the Mcarroys and the speech the credit they deserve.
Speaker 1: But that's part of the beauty of the game is
Speaker 1: that it changes somewhat reluctantly and slowly. And when you
Speaker 1: come along and try to flip it the game on
Speaker 1: its here, you're you're probably gonna get slapped upside the
Speaker 1: head for it. It's extremely well. So, yeah, I have
Speaker 1: to say, it's such a pleasure just talking about the
Speaker 1: old things. I don't know how many listeners are going
Speaker 1: to really go down this path with us. I don't know,
Speaker 1: but that that last thing you said, Hawk was so
Speaker 1: deeply true. I completely agree there word you said, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think so. Well, it's it's really fun to relive
Speaker 1: all this stuff. John. I appreciate your time and your insight,
Speaker 1: and uh, this is this has been a pleasure. Um.
Speaker 1: Before we go, no, no, before we go, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: give a shout out to our corporate sponsors at par Points,
Speaker 1: who you know, they've invented this ingenious scoring app and uh.
Speaker 1: The two founders become friends of Michael and mine. In fact,
Speaker 1: we've dined to them and Tulsa this evening, and um,
Speaker 1: it's just it's just a really cool way to as
Speaker 1: you get back into golf Hawk and you're you're relearning
Speaker 1: the game, you might, you might, you might pick up
Speaker 1: a new trick. Is it does add a different layer
Speaker 1: of of sort of intrigue. And this thing Hawk par points.
Speaker 1: I've see these ads on for all these apps and
Speaker 1: things you can that can keep track of your own game.
Speaker 1: You know. I well, I'm a little I've got a
Speaker 1: lot of that old soul in me too. I already
Speaker 1: told my buddies I'm gonna come back and kick your
Speaker 1: ass as soon as I'm ready to go, I believe it.
Speaker 1: We'll try and get you up to date on the
Speaker 1: new school stuff. But anyway, Johnny than thanks for your time.
Speaker 1: Let's make this an ongoing conversation. And uh, Michael Allen
Speaker 1: as always, it's a blast. Um, this has been a yeah,
Speaker 1: it's been. It's been good stuff. This has been There
Speaker 1: has been another Fire Drill podcast. We'll be doing this
Speaker 1: off and on all week from from Tulsa. We're gonna
Speaker 1: get Jeff Vogilly back on the line. For at least
Speaker 1: one more and maybe two and maybe a few more
Speaker 1: surprised guests. Sure hurt. The other day he's talking about
Speaker 1: Tiger being the best player at that Melbourne President's Cup
Speaker 1: and to that body's falling apart. He's playing the best
Speaker 1: gain players in the game. But although he's back to
Speaker 1: the point, he's the only guy who actually really knows
Speaker 1: how to play golf on that course, you know, of
Speaker 1: course that good and shape the shots and actually play.
Speaker 1: It was so cool to hear him talk golf oto.
Speaker 1: We could talk forever to you might have to, you
Speaker 1: might run out of tape or whatever. That Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1: Oh I think you're right, Yeah, for sure. All right,
Speaker 1: Well I'm gonna send the listeners home. But thanks to
Speaker 1: everyone who's been on this little journey with us. Thanks Allen. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll keep doing this. And all right, put another log
Speaker 1: on the fire. Nobody hears to get the time