1 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything there except for actually animosity 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 1: for the Uh not Phil to Tiger, because I think 3 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: Phil genuinely is grateful for all the Tiger's done for golf. 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: I e. Raised verses immeasurably, But I think Tiger has 5 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: no use for Phil. Put another log on the fire 6 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: nobody hears get the time. Hello, Welcome back to another 7 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: fire Drill podcast. This is Alan ship Duck. I have 8 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: Michael Bamberger sitting to my immediate left here in the 9 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 1: living room or rental house in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Michael, welcome, 10 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: good to see you as always I know, and Uh. 11 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: On the line with us is John Hawkins, a legend 12 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: of the golf beat, one of the big dogs carving 13 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: the tour and the two thousand's and beyond. And Johnny, 14 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: thanks for joining us, my pleasure, Thanks for having me. 15 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: Guys back in the day, if you were a German 16 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: hawk was there, it was a big tournament, that's right. 17 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: I mean that was Williamsburg St. Jude on them all 18 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: the fifth majors. I mean, it's fun. It's fun to 19 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 1: think about those old days when you know, we were 20 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 1: at s I and you were at Golf World and 21 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: there was really a sense of competition, like people don't 22 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:29,680 Speaker 1: understand how competitive journalism is. And you never wanted to 23 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: get beat by the other guy. And you guys had 24 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: you guys had Tim Rosaford. There was there was there 25 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,119 Speaker 1: was a lot of uh of energy on that beat, 26 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: like trying to trying not You had Bob Verdi, you know, 27 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: we had Guarty and bad Sickle, like there was a 28 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: lot of talent there and nobody wanted to pick up 29 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 1: their magazine a few days later and realized, dang it, 30 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: I got beat on this one. So those are those 31 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: were fun times, you know what they were. It was 32 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: a pleasure to read you guys, Prosier read you and 33 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: the range of talent that you go Hi you I's 34 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: had been Sickle and various others. And the thing about 35 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: Hawk was much like Gary Smith's. He would ask anybody anything. 36 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: He said to Curtis when he came off the course 37 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: at Pinehurst, whatever year that was, I guess when Paine 38 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: one the first question out of the box of curse 39 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 1: we ever went again, Well, John, that's kind of a 40 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: point to question we want to answer. No, we had 41 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: to spend a lot of money to compete with spot clistiated. 42 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: I'll tell you that. Thankfully it wasn't any of mine. Yeah, 43 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,679 Speaker 1: those were fun days. Those were fun days. Magazines were 44 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: were a beautiful thing while they lasted, but they last 45 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: no more for the most part. But anyway, it is 46 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 1: funny to think about we would send our stories off 47 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: and you'd have to wait three or four days to 48 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 1: actually get the physical magazines to see what the other 49 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: guys wrote. Like imagine that. Like I feel like if 50 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: I post a story an hour and a half after 51 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,279 Speaker 1: term ends, it feels like I'm late. Like the immediacy 52 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: has changed so much, has changed our jobs too. But 53 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: that was weirdly, the pleasure of the whole thing was, 54 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: you know, waiting on it, you know, I mean it 55 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:03,519 Speaker 1: was legendary to say, you know, wait on Jenkins or 56 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 1: we done on herb Wind. But you know, even in 57 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: our day to wait on Riley Waite and Garritt were 58 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: hawk and see what he'd right. It was part of 59 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: the fun of the thing that the lack of immediacy 60 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,799 Speaker 1: was actually part of the greatness of it. And it's hard, 61 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: it would be hard for a young person actually understand 62 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: what we're talking about, but it really is true. You 63 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: waited for that magazine to come and it was part 64 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: of the fun. Yeah, don't you think, huck, Yeah, I 65 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: certainly enjoyed those days. I didn't have any problem with 66 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 1: the weight. We didn't know that, we didn't know what 67 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,839 Speaker 1: other it was, right, And I wasn't a big fan 68 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 1: of being of covering the tournament after say a major, 69 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: and having to go find the magazines. They'd often be 70 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: sitting in the pro shop and these bundles. Uh, and 71 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: that would be the only way I would get to 72 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: read the piece because there was really no internet until 73 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: what round two thousand. I mean, I know it came 74 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: along long before that, but uh, I got my first 75 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: email address, and I I know that what time time 76 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: AK was? You know, a partner bo l at the 77 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: Times and they assigned his email addresses and mine was 78 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: M Barmburger zero two two four. And Shipnuk says to me, 79 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: he said, you know, you can probably do something in 80 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 1: shorten that, And I said to show him that this 81 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:20,359 Speaker 1: email thing it's going to be a fad. I'm still stuck. 82 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: I'm still stuck with M. Bamburger zero two two atl 83 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: dot com. Way to read the Tea leaves Michael yea. 84 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 1: But so for this conversation, I want to start by 85 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: by getting into one um, Eldrick taunt Woods, because he's 86 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: gonna be a huge force at this tournament. Like Tigers 87 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: press commerces are now events, his practice rounds are now events. 88 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 1: I mean the crowds that are out there following them 89 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 1: used to be you know, come Thursday, everyone would tune 90 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: into Tiger because you had to. But it's like now 91 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: the second steps on the grounds, and I guess because 92 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: it's perishable. We know the end could come in any moment, 93 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: and people just want to reach out and touch history, 94 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: and I feel like they're part of it. But uh, 95 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: you know, you you were there for all of Tiger's 96 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: greatest winds hawk and you had you had a lot 97 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: of access to him, And uh, I guess for you 98 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: this evolution of Tiger from this hardass competitor to now 99 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: this beloved elder statesman and the innumerable comeback when the 100 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,359 Speaker 1: grand sweep of Tiger's career, what what moments stand out 101 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: to you that you know, either on the golf course 102 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 1: or a little stolen moments you shared with them. Oh 103 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: my god, I could take us for an hour, but 104 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: I'll spare you. I think that the relationship I had 105 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: with with Woods was pretty good because he didn't like 106 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: Tim Rose Afford, uh, and he didn't like a lot 107 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: of guys, and I guess he trusted me. He tested 108 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: me plenty, as as the anecdotes in your wonderful book 109 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: will test. Actually, UH very different kind of relationship with 110 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: Phil much like Alan's, by the way, But I love 111 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: the book as as you guys know, and Uh recently 112 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: wrote I remember Tiger remember the w g C in 113 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: Atlanta in Woodstock, Georgia, like two thousand five it was. 114 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 1: It was the one that was started in Spain and 115 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: ended up in about I think it ended up in 116 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: like Iceland or something. It was. It moved so often 117 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: before it finally went to Funk. And I remember Tiger 118 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: coming up to me afterward after he played around, and 119 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: he said hawk Camarre Camara and drags me over and 120 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: he pulls me into a private area. Just I man, 121 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: I read that article you wrote the other day. It 122 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: was so funny and I was taken aback. I'd never 123 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: had Woods uh respond to anything I'd ever written on 124 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: him or anybody else. And this wasn't really about him. 125 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: It was just one of these pot pourri deals kind 126 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: of you know, one off with the butt of bings 127 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: at the end of each at the end of each graph, 128 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: and that that sticks out because it showed me about 129 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: something about Tiger that I roy didn't know. I think 130 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: he he didn't like to be bothered at Majors, as 131 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: you guys know, he'd come in and do his thing. 132 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: As for as for the here and now, not only 133 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: is he perishable, but he's he's really become you know, 134 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: this is kind of the ultimate comeback for him, although 135 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: I still think twenty nine, the twenty nineteen Masters was 136 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: his eighty six Masters, much like maybe maybe it feels 137 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: one p g A may turn out to be sort 138 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: of the coup de gras, whatever you wanna call it. 139 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: I don't think he has anything left to prove. That said, 140 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: I think you get factor this week if he's if 141 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: he's only taken one day off between the Masters and 142 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: p GA, he's got to be in pretty good shape 143 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: competitively heading in. Yeah, but you know, going back to that, 144 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: that that moment where you know Tiger tapped you up 145 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: for that story, like at his roote, he's a golf nerd, 146 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: and he you know, he loves. He loves the game, 147 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: he loves to read about the game, he loves to 148 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: talk about the game. He venerates the history. So I'm 149 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: not surprised that he was he was pouring over some 150 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: random article in Golf World, because he's kind of this 151 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: all knowing, all seeing, uh, you know figure in my mind, 152 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: like he doesn't miss anything. Now, he won't often admit it, 153 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: but I feel like he was. He was always watching 154 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: and he was always reading, and um, this underrated part 155 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: of of Tiger's persona, like he doesn't miss much. Do 156 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: you remember do you remember the golf trip we went 157 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: on to Ireland? What was that? Was Timie on that trip? 158 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 1: No Man Janella Alan. It was Bistrom. It was Bistrom. 159 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: Was the fourth was we brought Bastroom might not have 160 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: been our best call. We'll leave that alone for the masses. 161 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: I remember seeing Tiger later on that trip in in 162 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 1: dining room at one of the those fine places we 163 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: were sponging free room from and uh Tiger. It was 164 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: early in the morning. He was like seven am, and 165 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: Tiger had to stack of clips like had to be 166 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: media stuff. I mean, I gingerly approached him after I 167 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,319 Speaker 1: had finished breakfast and at a time that didn't look 168 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: like I'd be bothering him. I always tried to tiptoe 169 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: my way over there, hoping he'd see me and either 170 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: tell me to you know, g F yu or h 171 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: come on over and uh, yeah, he you can't be 172 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: that famous and and that and even remotely clueless. He 173 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: had to keep up on everything. But anyway, I remember 174 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,839 Speaker 1: that that was Duval was on that trip. They were 175 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: they were They had a helicopter and it was Duval. 176 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: It was two thousand and two because Duval had the 177 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: Claret jug he was on there. He was going to 178 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: return it the next week as defending Chap and it 179 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: was we were packing up our rooms and his it 180 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: was in this wooded crate and it was outside his room, 181 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: and I was just walking through this courtyard, and for 182 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: a split second I thought about stealing it as kind 183 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 1: of a joke. And could you imagine the panic that 184 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: would have set off if Duval had lost the oldest 185 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: trophy and golf like and that we could have just 186 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: kept it for a few days and I had a 187 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: little fun with it, but I chickened out to my 188 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: everlasting regret, because I remember that there they had it 189 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: was we're at the cake club? Is that everywhere? Yeah, 190 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: that sounds right. I think, Yeah, Tiger was so rather, 191 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: Tim was so fair with everybody. What was Tigers slaying 192 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: with him? What? Why? Why? Why did why did he 193 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: even have a beef with him in the first place? Michael, 194 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: I think the problem Tiger had wasn't just with Tim, 195 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: but with John Strady and anybody else who made a 196 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: dime off of Tigers being off his likeness. Uh, and 197 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: those guys wrote books on Tiger, and for whatever reason, 198 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: Tiger took extreme umbrage to that. He didn't want people 199 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: making any money off of his life story was the 200 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: first you know him eventually kind of fell out of 201 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: favor with him, and I'm sure I did at some point, 202 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 1: although I never wrote a book on him. Um well 203 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: hideas I mean, he was a co author on The 204 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: Big Miss with Hank Caney, and so I just understand 205 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: why they might have been upset because it's some sort 206 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: of unspoken code about the player caddie relationships, like is 207 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,839 Speaker 1: like is it like a client privileged sort of thing? 208 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 1: Even though I'm sure we all disagree, but I know 209 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: that was Tiger's take. But I mean Stringy's book was 210 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: so affectionate. It was really the first biography and he 211 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 1: had he was writing for the Orange County Register and 212 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: he just knew the family well. And like I always 213 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: think that's one of the best Tiger books there is. 214 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: It's hard to imagine they were upset about that. And 215 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 1: then Rosaford like he did it in like two thousand 216 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: and Tigers. He's right, and he was like the biggest 217 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: athlete in the world coming out out of that season. 218 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: And it's so my opic. Like both those guys helped 219 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: burnish Tiger's legend and they helped they helped get fans 220 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: excited about him. They helped fill in the gaps on 221 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: his story, like Tiger was making enough money, why would 222 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: he be gruds? You know, Tim rosa fort a small 223 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: advance on a on a golf book, Like it's to me, 224 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: it's so bizarre. And do you know the story about 225 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,839 Speaker 1: about Tim covering a tiger and Earl at Newport at 226 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: the second U s m uh, it depends what story 227 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: you're talking about. Enlightened me, partner, Well, the part I'm 228 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 1: trying to get you started on is uh is Earl 229 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: lifting the trophy at thet when when it was all over. 230 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: When after Tiger had defeated defeat a Marucci for a 231 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: second U s M. When he said that my son 232 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: will win fourteen major championships, that was part of it. 233 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: Can you feel a son on the rest of or 234 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: maybe you don't know, I'm imagining you might, or maybe 235 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 1: you don't cover that tournament. That that was before I 236 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: was still getting told to perform some anatomical impossibilities from 237 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,719 Speaker 1: people like Bobby boy uh and uh Roberto Album. I 238 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 1: was still covering baseball. Hey hawk, I've seen Bobby Bonney 239 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: in recent years, and those anatomical things that you're talking about. 240 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: He can't even think about him. He's so large. So 241 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: who's getting the last lap? Here? Anyway? Just to briefly 242 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: finish up my own little self, you know, I was 243 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: trying to wind you up, but I didn't realize that. 244 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: And it doesn't take much. You know, this is part 245 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: of the legend of Rosa, Forden and Tiger and this 246 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: will only be interesting in the three of us. And 247 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: you know, uh, maybe being sickle, he's listening. Um, but 248 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: so Tim has been covering tegraph for a while. You 249 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: know the chap reverse, don't you where I'm going I 250 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 1: do not even bother Michael, You're eight miles down the road. 251 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: You gotta finish, right, you gotta now, you gotta finish. 252 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: That's the Detroit thing. Eight miles Okay. So uh so, 253 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 1: I don't know the exact quote. I was there myself. 254 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,199 Speaker 1: I think the quote goes like this. He lists or 255 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: lift the trophy and says, I hope Bobby Jones is 256 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: spinning in his grip. I hope Bobby Jones is spinning 257 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 1: in his grave knowing this stove was going to a 258 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: black man's home for another year. But a little bit 259 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: more profane than that. Anyway, Tim's got it somewhere deep 260 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: in the story, but he's using it, and the s 261 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: I editors took it, and you know, period new graph, 262 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: he's gonna win fourteen Earl, period new paragraph. And now 263 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: it was the kicker or was way upon the story 264 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: was one expreiment the other. You know, Bobby Jones kissed 265 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: my ass, blah blah bla. This show was going to 266 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: a black man's home for another for another year. And 267 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: of course Tiger and Earle, but probably Earl. Tiger probably 268 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: thought it was funny. Earl hated it. And I think 269 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: that was the beginning of the end for for Tim 270 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: with with the Woods is even though he went out 271 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: of his way to be so so fair and scrupulous 272 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: with him and reported with a lot of integrity, what's 273 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: amazing is that Tim got the saint treatment as Charlie 274 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: Pierce and Charlotte Pierce completely through Tiger round the bus. 275 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: I mean, there was no middle ground. You were either uh, 276 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: Tiger would either talk to you or he he loathed you. 277 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: And uh, it wasn't the process wasn't quite fair. But 278 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: then Al and I have talked about this many times. 279 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: That is very telling, and that is telling about his 280 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: whole thing. Or it's either you're either on Tigers team 281 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: or you're off Tiger team, and there is no other 282 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: area to be. And of course we can't be on 283 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: a team, but a lot of people can. His competitors, 284 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: you know, Zack Johnson can't be on team Tiger. He's 285 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: not Tiger's enemy, but he's trying to beat Tiger too. 286 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: And if he's not gonna beat him, he's gonna try 287 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: to make you know, the best checking can. But Tiger 288 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: cannot see the world that way. And of course I 289 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: think it comes out of a military perspective, and it 290 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: was very, very very effective for him. But now this 291 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: new Tigers, like, oh yeah, I miss having dinner with 292 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: the guys. Like what I mean? Have you ever in 293 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: your life seemed tire eating out anywhere? You've seen everybody, 294 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: You've seen Ernie's seen John Dale, You've seen everybody. You've 295 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: never seen Tiger. I've never seen Tiger. Have you ever 296 00:15:55,880 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: seen Tiger eating dinner? Have you Huck ever? I never did, 297 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: I ever saw him eating a meal with anybody but himself, 298 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: except for the memorable exchange in the Dallas in the 299 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: last Collina's dining room at Allen Uh, he wrote in 300 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: the book, when Phil came schmaltzing up with his tray 301 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: like some nerd in the eighth in the Junior High cafeteria, 302 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: Can I join you guys? And then he sits down Tiger. 303 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: That's what made another thing I loved in Allen's book, 304 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: the banter between Michelson and Woods at state dinner, which 305 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: I had heard. Um, I think that's really when it 306 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: kind of started turning around the whole Michaelson Woods, I 307 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: don't know if it's a friendship, that's probably too strong 308 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: a word Tiger's ability to tolerate Phil uh seemed to 309 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: him prease after he'd gone through his first wave of 310 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: problems in the early times, not to mention, and I 311 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: I kind of knew it at the time, but I 312 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 1: had forgotten all some of the details as I got 313 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: into the into the weeds on this book. Was that 314 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 1: there was that period where Phil started beating Tiger with regularity, 315 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: and it really started in in you know, eight oh 316 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 1: nine and for about five years, and of course the 317 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 1: scandal change Tiger's trajectory. We all know that, you know, 318 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: but uh, Phil was beating Tiger every time they were 319 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 1: paired together, and and it kind of culminates at Pebble 320 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: Beach in two thousand and twelve when it's really the 321 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: worst beat down of Tiger's career, and Phil shoot sixty 322 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: four and Tiger shoot seventy five and Phil just blows 323 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: him off the golf course. So I think even in 324 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: those victories, Phil still bit his tongue and knew was 325 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: not a good idea to taunt Tiger, And I think 326 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: that increased Tiger's respect for Phil, that he beat him, 327 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 1: but he also kept it classy, and and that that 328 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: definitely shifted that dynamic a little bit between them, and 329 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: I think that's how that's how you get Tiger's respect 330 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 1: might not sacking down, and and there was a period 331 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 1: of Phil retreated, but you know, kind of later in 332 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: their relationship he started giving it back to Tiger. I 333 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: think that helped their relationship strangely, but if they if 334 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: they have anything like a real friendship, you couldn't prove 335 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: it by tigers proscarfance this week where he says, quote, 336 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 1: I haven't reached out to him. I mean, here's Phil 337 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: probably the lowest period of his of his life that 338 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 1: we would that we would know about any way. And uh, 339 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: if Tiger go ahead hook no, no, if if if 340 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: if he has some sort of friend especially in this 341 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: day of texting, I hope you're okay. If you want 342 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: to talk, let me know. That's easy as could be. 343 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 1: And uh, he eppenently hasn't done that by by by 344 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: what by what he's describing. So I think that's very telling. 345 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: I'm loath to disagree with that on anything Hawk, But 346 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: in this instance, I think we've been I think we've 347 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: been fed a story by both sides, you know, leading 348 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: up to that Las Vegas thing between the two of them. 349 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,360 Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything there except for actually animosity 350 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: for the uh not fill to Tiger, because I think 351 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: Phil generally is rateful for all the Tiger's done for golf, 352 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: I e. Raised versus immeasurably. But I think Tiger has 353 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 1: no use for philm Well. I mean, it's a very 354 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: interesting situation. Saw you guys, I you remember, I mean 355 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 1: twenty years and twenty two years ago, it was Tiger 356 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 1: beefing about the tours using his likeness and and all 357 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: the very same proprietary ownership things that Phil complained about 358 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 1: at the first stage of his uh you know, grand 359 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: gripe against the tour h a few months ago. It 360 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: was Phil Tiger had a problem with the tour making 361 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: a bunch of money off and the saying it's just 362 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 1: an identical argument. What's what's kind of somewhat stunning is 363 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: that Woods wouldn't even reach out to him and say so, 364 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 1: like poke fun at him, like I bitched about that 365 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: when you were still trying to win your sixth tour tournament, 366 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: right it was. Tiger can be very very snarky, very witty. 367 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: He rarely reaches out in a in a loving way right, 368 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: There's a lot of ways to transit transmit a message. 369 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 1: I'm surprised he didn't do that. Well, there there's a 370 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a cold blooded side to Tiger. We 371 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: all know that. Yeah, you know, even like his his 372 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: pr guy Glenn Greenspan, who we all knew worked worked 373 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: for Tiger and stuck by him through all the different 374 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: all the scandals, and and then when it was when 375 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: he fell out of favor, he was just gone and 376 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: Tiger never reached out to him, right, Like that's how 377 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: as the story goes, Like, do you think if you 378 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: had someone who's who's by your side through thick and 379 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,640 Speaker 1: thin for a decade, you would want to at least 380 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: personally end the relationship. But I think Tiger's somewhat conflict diverse. 381 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: You'd rather have other people do that sort of thing 382 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: for him. And how do you have any insight into 383 00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 1: that white white white Tiger? Let Glenn Glenn go no idea? 384 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: I'm not surprised. I mean, uh, there's a similarity and 385 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: harass the only one between Tiger and Greg Norman. Every 386 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:15,479 Speaker 1: relationship ship seems to end with a burning bridge. Uh uh. 387 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:21,719 Speaker 1: Obviously Steinberg is the only guy that survived at all, uh, 388 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 1: Joe Lacava. I suppose as a chance in this era 389 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: of kinder, gentler Tiger. But they all end in flames. 390 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: They all end with no way across the water and 391 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 1: therefore no way back. And when when you think about 392 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,120 Speaker 1: when you think about Steve Williams being a Tiger's wedding 393 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 1: and Tiger being at St Williams wedding, who would guess that, 394 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: you know, ten years whatever years later they would not 395 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: even be on speaking terms Now. I think they are 396 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 1: to some degree, but certainly not like what it was 397 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: the best tigers. Tiger was Stevie's best man. He was 398 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: not just a passive attendant. I mean, he played a 399 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,160 Speaker 1: very important role. Like that's wild. I don't know too 400 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: many people who won't even talk to their best man, 401 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: you know, a few years later, Like that's a very 402 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: strange turn any relationship, right, And the relationship disintegrated because 403 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: Stevie worked for Adam Scott. I mean, is that the 404 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: whole story? I mean, that's what we were allowed to believe. 405 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: That's not really well he was, that was part of it. 406 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: But when when the whole scandal broke after Tiger around 407 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 1: over the fire, hydrant. And as the story goes, Stevie 408 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: begged for Tiger to make some public statement that you 409 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,719 Speaker 1: know that Steve Williams was not a party to this, 410 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: and he didn't know about it, because Steve is a 411 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: very black and white kind of self righteous guy, and 412 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: it was just assumed that anyone who was in Tiger's 413 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: orbit was kind of facilitating all these secret liaisons and everything, 414 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: and and and Steve Williams wanting to be exonerated of that. 415 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: And of course Tiger never did that, and I think 416 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: that was really the source, and Adam Scott was the symptom, 417 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: not the cause. Well, I never even believe that, you 418 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: know how your point earlier about you know, you're either 419 00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: on the team or off the team. There's no you know, 420 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: black or white, there's take a side. I've never bought 421 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: that whole Adam Scott thing. I think when Steve Williams 422 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 1: went to work for Adam Scott that week, he was 423 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: quitting because you can't work. You know, Adam Scott is 424 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: the enemy. He's trying to beat me in majors. Even 425 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: though I'm not playing this week, it doesn't matter. You're 426 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: still you're consorting, working and working for the enemy, and 427 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: I think Steve Williams had to know uh that even 428 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: working that one off, even if he quote had permission, 429 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: which I don't know the ins and the outs of that, 430 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 1: that was tandem out to quitting. Disagree with that. So 431 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: certainly always seems there's a public reason and then one 432 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: that's the real one can be fed. Oh here here's 433 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,120 Speaker 1: another one that we might want to discuss. How about 434 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: how about Butch. I mean, Tiger had all the town 435 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: in the world, but Butch, by all accounts, including Tigers, 436 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: did bring him to another level. And that swinging two 437 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: thousand speaks for itself. Um, And once Butcher was out, 438 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: Butch was out, and I think I don't really Maybe 439 00:23:57,760 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 1: one of you guys recalled, I don't recall the ins 440 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: and the I think Butch quit on Tiger, but I 441 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 1: don't recall that the tales of it. Yeah, it was 442 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: just it became afraid relationship. I think Tiger resented Butch's 443 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: high profile in the media, and he did feel like 444 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: Butch was making money off of him, which he kind 445 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: of had to because Tiger was only paying a fifty 446 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: grand a year and Butch was leveraging the fame in 447 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 1: different ways, but that's his golf schools and his and 448 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: the things on the side, and and somehow that bothered Tiger, 449 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: like it was Tiger demand it's it's sort of trump 450 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: and like he demanded blind loyalty and exclusivity, but he 451 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: wouldn't give it back. And so yeah, I think I 452 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: remember Butcher Butch saying that he was offered a million 453 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: dollars to write a book about Tiger, not a tell 454 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: all at all, more like how I teach Tiger Woods 455 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 1: how to play golfer? How I did while he was 456 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 1: still working for him, And and Butch wisely went to 457 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: Tiger and said, I've been offered this sum of money. 458 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: I don't know the exact sum, but I think it 459 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: might have a million dollars certainly would be reasonable or believable. 460 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,919 Speaker 1: And the and and the answer from Tiger was, you know, 461 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: you do what you want, but I prefer If he didn't, 462 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: well that's means, don't do the book if you want 463 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: to keep your job. And and Bush didn't. But that's 464 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: just how the Tiger demands complete fidelity. It's or use 465 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: the word of the moment galty, which was an outlier, 466 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: and that he talked freely about Tiger and the relationship 467 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: and the things that they worked on. Not every day, 468 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: but certainly I think Butch probably talked himself out of 469 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:30,120 Speaker 1: that job to a certain extent. I would also point out, however, 470 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: that Tiger there probably wasn't a whole lot more Tiger 471 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: was going to get out of Butch, Um, Well, how 472 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,920 Speaker 1: about how about just keep doing what you're doing. Don't 473 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 1: change anything, don't don't put don't put on, don't go 474 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 1: to the gym so much, don't put on any weight. 475 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 1: Your body is perfect, the two thousand bodies perfect. Swing 476 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: is perfect. Let's just keep a good thing going. But 477 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 1: I think, why would you, Why would you change? Because 478 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: not if you want to us open by well, but 479 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 1: here's the thing. I mean, Tiger always had to be 480 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 1: working towards that. He always had to be improving. That's 481 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: what got him out of bitter. But he was this 482 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 1: quest to get better. He didn't want to just do 483 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: maintenance and try and keep the same thing. He wanted 484 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 1: to get better. And it's an admirable mindset, it is. 485 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: That's what that's what takes you the mountaintop. But you 486 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 1: wish when you when you get to the mountain top, 487 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: you could just stay there. But so many you know, 488 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: whether it's Iatan Baker, Finns, it was Puddrick, just seven degree, 489 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: that drive to get there. You can't just shut it off. 490 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: He so believed that thing. If you're not getting better, 491 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: you're getting worse. And I mean, I guess as a 492 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: truism it's true. But if you're winning US by fifteen, 493 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: you can win a bunch more US opens by six 494 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:36,640 Speaker 1: and five and four and three and two and one 495 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 1: and still catch Big Jack. Well, yeah, that's true. But 496 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: and Tiger would argue, And Steve Williams has always said 497 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 1: this that the Tiger in oh six oh seven was 498 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: better than Tiger in two thousand, that he had more control, 499 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 1: he had more shots, and he may have lost a 500 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 1: little bit of explosiveness, but the and maybe his ceiling 501 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: was not quite his eye, but the floor was much higher, 502 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: and he played at a much higher level. And you know, 503 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: and he was winning like crazy. He wasn't winning by fifteen. 504 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: So in Tiger's mind, maybe he had to leave butch 505 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: to keep evolving. I mean, the rest of US, I 506 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 1: don't think so. I think that you know, the body 507 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: was giving on just some degree because not nothing to 508 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: do with Butch, but what Tiger was doing to the 509 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 1: body and then the body couldn't make the swing that 510 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: Butch loved. We all love so much because it was 511 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: so beautiful to watch. The body looked weird and then 512 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 1: a weird swing had to be constructed that would work 513 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: with that money. Yeah, but I mean it is it 514 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: is frustrating your Patrick Harrington and you win three majors 515 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: in thirteen or fourteen months. I just keep doing what 516 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: you're doing. But he doesn't have He couldn't shut it 517 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: off either. I mean, there's a lot of guys who 518 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: they just that they're on the never ending quest and 519 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 1: I respected even though in hindsight it can look like 520 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,919 Speaker 1: it can look like folly. But I will say it's 521 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 1: fun to excavate all these old Tiger stories because we're 522 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: at this age of haggeography where a lot of there's 523 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: this whole generation who who have come up revering Tiger. 524 00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: They weren't that close to him during the years when 525 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 1: he was, you know, pretty much the biggest thing in 526 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: the world as far as his fame and the adulation 527 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: was untouchable, and then the scandals changed everything, and now 528 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 1: he's he's come back so many times he's been humanized, 529 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: and he tries, he tries a little harder to appear 530 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,439 Speaker 1: softer and gentler. But we kind of know the real Tiger. 531 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: We lived it for before everyone else came on the scene. 532 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: So you forget about some of these these these these 533 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: old battles and these old quirks. It's how about that 534 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: quote from Armin in the HBO special where somebody says that, oh, 535 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: you know, I'd like to get a piece of Tiger. 536 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 1: I wish I could get a piece of Tygers Prime, 537 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: and Norman says, the fuck you do. It's a classic. 538 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: It's a classic. I remember telling Michael on the phone, 539 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: it's been a couple of years now, that when he 540 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: was lying on his back in seventeen that summer, and 541 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: I think he looked up to the sky. I mean 542 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: he was already like this twelve hours a day, uh, 543 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: if not twenty four uh and saying, you know, basically 544 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: coming to terms with the big eyes, saying, if you 545 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: get me out of this bed and you get me 546 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: back on green grass, standing up and hitting balls, I'll 547 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: I'll change. And I think that's what we what we've 548 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: come to enjoy. Might be too strong were. But the 549 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: metamorphosis of Tiger into the kinder, gentler sort is an 550 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: interesting one because you would think that a guy whose 551 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: blood ran that Chili seven until he was about what, 552 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: until he until his life came to pieces. The transformation 553 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: was so dramatic it's hard to understand. For those who 554 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: weren't old enough for a part of it before oh nine, 555 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 1: they would have a very difficult time understanding what we're 556 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: talking about. And if you were incarcerated in two thousand 557 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: nine and he didn't hear anything about Tiger, you'd have 558 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: a hard time. I'm believing that he's a vanilla cupcake nowadays. 559 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just so weird, that so market and 560 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: I don't know how manufacturer it is well that I'm 561 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: kind of glad to use that word hawk, because I mean, 562 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: you know, we all remember the Buick ad, the Nike ads, 563 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: the Bridgestone adds, the press conferences. One of my you know, 564 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: starting points of Tiger is, you know, forget about Tiger 565 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: and the golf course that stands by itself for all time, 566 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: but off the golf course, Tiger is one of the 567 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: greatest actors the world has ever seen. I really do 568 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: believe that and uh So, with respect to all that 569 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 1: you're saying, I have a different view. I think Tiger 570 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: has worked masterly to manage his public image, and I 571 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: think it would be impossible for any of us to 572 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: understand how hard it is to and I say this 573 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: with a lot of empathy, all the empathy that I have, 574 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: how hard it actually is to be Tiger Woods. Oh, 575 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: I wow, I agree with you on that. I mean, 576 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: I wouldn't want it. I wouldn't want any of that. 577 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,719 Speaker 1: I think he's he is, to me, living proof that 578 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: fame is a drug. Uh and he overdoes back there 579 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: in two thousand nine, and the rest is the rest 580 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: is history forgotten. It's a drug, and it's a prison. 581 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: We we tend to remember the most real you know, 582 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: it's just it's it's It may end up being the 583 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: same thing with Phil, who knows, although Phil seems to 584 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: be in a much hotter water than Tiger ever was. 585 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: I don't know which is which is crazy because Tiger 586 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: broke actual laws, you know, with his d u I 587 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,959 Speaker 1: and all that, and feel has only broken some unwritten rules. 588 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 1: And yet it does feel like like it's it's in somebody. 589 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: It's gonna be harder to feel for Phil to come 590 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 1: all the way back, which is wild, because I mean, 591 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: Tiger was on the back page of the New York 592 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: Post twenty days in a row. Like if you remember 593 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: the salaciousness of that scandal and the intensity and the 594 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: vanity fair pictorials of all the girls and all of 595 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: that stuff, like it's it's forgotten now, but it was 596 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: a wild happened. Yeah, he wishes it was the backpage 597 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: because that's the sports page. He was on the front 598 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: place above page. Right, that's well said, like, um, and 599 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: I guess you know Tiger was lucky that was just 600 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: before the dawn of Twitter. Really, like I didn't, I didn't. 601 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: That's what caught me on Twitter in early two thousand 602 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: and ten, Like he just That'scampa came out just before 603 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: the height of social media, and I think that that 604 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: helped helped it kind of fade away in the collective 605 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 1: memory a little faster. But like the for of those 606 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: who you know, lived through it, like it was hard 607 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: to believe you could ever put that in the rear 608 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: view mirror. But Tiger has pretty effectively. Uh it's hockey, 609 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: You've got You've got a good rapport with Phil. Uh 610 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've been talking to about all 611 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: In in more recent years. But what would you advise 612 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: Phil if you could, if if you're I mean your 613 00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: a reporter, and you might say that's not quote might play. 614 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,959 Speaker 1: But you know, we also have personal relationships a lot 615 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 1: of these people. What would you say to him? I 616 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: tell him that I tell him with after probably I 617 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: probably need a couple of shots of whiskey before I 618 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: walked into the room. But I tell him that he 619 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: asked to completely disclose. He has to tell the complete truth. 620 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: The same thing with Norman. I mean, Norman makes that 621 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: ridiculous comment about the SHOWGI Great Normal. Was just too 622 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: ignorant to understand the magnitude of that situation as it 623 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: related to so many people across the world. As for Phil, 624 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 1: you come out, you say I've got a problem. Actually 625 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: I've got a couple of problems, but I want I 626 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: need to settle this one first. Uh. I think it's 627 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: fairly evident that money played a huge role. I don't 628 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: want to get a suit here. But although if Alan 629 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: can't get us suit, then nobody can. The jury is 630 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: out on that one. It's it's early days. Well, there's 631 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: still plenty of time. But I think you've got to 632 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: come completely clean. You've got to you've got to bear 633 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 1: your soul. You've got to stand naked in front of 634 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: the world and say, Hi, my name is Phil and 635 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 1: I got a problem. What what mechanism would you do it? 636 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 1: And would you have a press conference? Would you do 637 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: sixty minutes with Jim Nance? What? What would you does? 638 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: Barbed water still alive? I don't even know that. I 639 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: you know, I would try to do it. You know how, 640 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,760 Speaker 1: when it's really something really important, you don't text theree email, 641 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: you pick up the phone I think you're taking it, uh, 642 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: or or if it's a really big deal, you do 643 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: it in person. I think he's got to do it. 644 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 1: I think he's got to do it with I love 645 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: the idea of doing it on sixty minutes or or 646 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: or like a blue curtain, a big blue curtain hill 647 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 1: emerge from and just you gotta see him. You gotta 648 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 1: be able to see him. You gotta be able to 649 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 1: watch every every facial tick and how he reacts to everything. 650 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: And he's gotta he's got to make him. He's got 651 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:14,399 Speaker 1: to avail himself to some very very difficult questions. Until then, 652 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:20,399 Speaker 1: he's he's really not going to be forgiven. Look twenty all, 653 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: the hardcore Phil legion is never gonna think he did 654 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,280 Speaker 1: anything wrong. They're like the folks who stormed the capitol. Okay. 655 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: Then you've got the people who the that don't really care, 656 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 1: that don't really know what he did. They just appreciate 657 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,240 Speaker 1: him for his golf and all the enjoyment he brought 658 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 1: to them as a player. And then you've got that 659 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: middle sector, I don't know fifty six of all people 660 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 1: who might be interested in such a matter probably need 661 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: to see how Phil reacts in his first public appearance, 662 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,840 Speaker 1: regardless of the context, and see how he reacts to 663 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 1: at all. Hey, that's why I didn't show up at 664 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: Southern It couldn't show up at Southern Hills. That was 665 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:09,439 Speaker 1: not possible. It certainly wasn't even remotely practical. You don't 666 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,360 Speaker 1: show up in a golf tournament, uh and turn it 667 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: into a confessional, right, this is this is what his 668 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: problems were. Multifold. He committed Uh, he committed crimes of code. 669 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: And who knows where this thing's gonna end? I mean, uh, 670 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 1: he the way he talked about the tour alone was 671 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:40,399 Speaker 1: probably probably his biggest sin, right, I mean, he made 672 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 1: all this money over thirty years on the PGA tour 673 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: and now he's basically well not quite defaming it, but 674 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: doing his best and uh, well it's it's pretty rich. 675 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 1: If you're over in Saudi Arabia taking a bloated appearance 676 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,399 Speaker 1: for to accuse the tour of obnoxious greed like that, 677 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 1: you're sort of telling on yourself in that in that scenario, 678 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: like I hear what you're saying like that, especially from 679 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 1: his colleagues, Like that's the original sin is that you 680 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: know that Phil was was essentially working against their own 681 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 1: interests because you know, if this, if this Saudi tour 682 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: succeeds and they get a big TV deal and then 683 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,840 Speaker 1: they start signing up big corporate partners like Rolex, like 684 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: that's going to siphon money away from the tour, the 685 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: PGA tour and all of a sudden, like phils directly 686 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 1: threatening the livelihoods of most of the guys on tour. Now, 687 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,399 Speaker 1: some of the top stars could could get cherry picked 688 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 1: and play in Saudi Arabia, but all the guys who 689 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 1: are thirty to two on the money list, like they 690 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: they're not have that opportunities. You wouldn't think so he was. 691 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 1: He was threatening their livelihoods, and that's why the players 692 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: are upset. Yeah, understood, But but it seems to run. 693 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 1: It's run all through the golf community. I mean Dave 694 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 1: Stockton saying that he wasn't missed at the PGA Champions 695 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,760 Speaker 1: dinner last night. That's Stockton is not exactly the mainest 696 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 1: guy whoever lived, And it's like, no, he wasn't. It's 697 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 1: it's almost like everybody has a license to take a 698 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 1: shot at the guy, and he does he deserve it. Yeah, 699 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: I suppose it's pretty easy to make a case that 700 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 1: he does. Um, what he did flew in the face 701 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: of all rational behavior as it relates to being a 702 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,400 Speaker 1: professional golfer. Uh. Never mind the fact that he's made 703 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,879 Speaker 1: what for how much a lot of money? He's made 704 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 1: eight hundred million dollars over the course of his thirty 705 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 1: year career, at least that was the estimate I saw. 706 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:40,919 Speaker 1: That's uh for him to have any perceived, any real 707 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: financial problems that might have led to this. Uh, dallly 708 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,839 Speaker 1: answer to this relationship with the Saudis boy, it just 709 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: it runs deep and it runs wide, and we don't 710 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: know where the river ends? Very interesting. How are you 711 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,879 Speaker 1: consuming you know, you're you're You're not on the road 712 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: as much as it used to be. How are you 713 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 1: consuming your golf these days? Column? I'm writing a TV column. 714 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: I just started about two months ago, a media column. 715 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,399 Speaker 1: Lets a TV column right from morning read. I write 716 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 1: once a week. I'd love more work, but it's not easy. 717 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:26,319 Speaker 1: It's not easy to find work, especially when you are 718 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 1: known as a maybe a bit of a sniper or uh. 719 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 1: I want to write columns. I like to write. I 720 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: don't think the game has nearly enough of that stuff. 721 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:40,280 Speaker 1: And you know that's that's what's missing from the old days. 722 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,879 Speaker 1: It's the critical element. Everybody's in bed with everybody else 723 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 1: now it's it's really it's not covered the way the 724 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 1: NFL it's covered. I mean it's it's just not covered 725 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 1: like like the rest of professional sports are covered. I mean, Michael, 726 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,879 Speaker 1: you live got the Sixers are are dirt right now. 727 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,759 Speaker 1: I mean they lose to the to the who I mean, 728 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 1: they get trashed. They did everything they could to put 729 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: together a team that could make a run for the 730 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:20,840 Speaker 1: NBA championship. They were unsuccessful. Now the run town, we 731 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,800 Speaker 1: don't right right exactly, and we don't have that type 732 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 1: of of objectivity or journalistic sensibility and golf. It's kind 733 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 1: of weird when the players when the when we had 734 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,400 Speaker 1: actually more access to the players and a better report 735 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,279 Speaker 1: with them, it was actually easier to be honest in 736 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,319 Speaker 1: our reporting about what they were actually like. And now 737 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,360 Speaker 1: that we don't really know them because they're you know, 738 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,360 Speaker 1: they're they're so quarantined, it's harder to and the courage 739 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 1: is far more bland. It's it's an I've never thought 740 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:52,760 Speaker 1: of it that way, but it is a very odd conundrum, 741 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,879 Speaker 1: as you've just described well, because so much, so much 742 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 1: of the coverage is comes from the tour itself, and 743 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 1: then you go to a tournament now and there's more 744 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,600 Speaker 1: PGA Tour social media staffers and there are actual reporters, 745 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 1: and then there is an element of the golf media 746 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 1: that you know, the term fanboy has been attached to 747 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 1: them and and whether that's fair or not, I mean 748 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 1: it does exist. So uh, there's for the people who 749 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:19,800 Speaker 1: are doing like old school journalism, you're in the minority. 750 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,480 Speaker 1: There's there's all these other elements you have to compete with, 751 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 1: and from the agent standpoint, and maybe the players themselves 752 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 1: they know it's much safer to go with the approved channels, 753 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,759 Speaker 1: which is the tour or or these other channels where 754 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 1: you know, they're not really trying to do journalism. It's 755 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 1: more about it's experiential and it's more about kind of 756 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,200 Speaker 1: being being browed up with the players and if they've 757 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,440 Speaker 1: obviously found audiences, and that's great, but it does make 758 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:46,799 Speaker 1: it harder for people who want to do kind of 759 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:52,319 Speaker 1: more serious objective journalism because the players are only gonna 760 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 1: give so much time. They only have so much bandwidth 761 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 1: for quote unquote media, and if they have these other homes, 762 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,880 Speaker 1: these other safe harbors, there's really nothing in it for 763 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 1: them to to give time to people who might want 764 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,800 Speaker 1: to be more critical or more objective or have a 765 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,279 Speaker 1: little more of a John Just eye. So it is 766 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 1: a challenge for for those of us who are left 767 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,640 Speaker 1: were trying to cover the sport in a more serious way, 768 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 1: sort of getting squeezed out in in certain situations. And 769 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:20,480 Speaker 1: U said, you have to find a different way to 770 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 1: do the job that's maybe not as access based. But 771 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:25,640 Speaker 1: as you're saying, Michael, then you don't get to know 772 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 1: the players. There's not that intimacy, and it creates its 773 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,759 Speaker 1: own challenges. Look back, when you were doing that Great 774 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: Goose show on on Golf Channel, was there ever any 775 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,759 Speaker 1: sort of limitation put on you, either spoken or unspoken, 776 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 1: about what your view could be? Well, I think I 777 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:45,960 Speaker 1: had one thing removed from the air and the rebroadcast 778 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:51,720 Speaker 1: because it had to do with my quitting drinking. Uh. 779 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,040 Speaker 1: One of the shows who has taped, I don't remember. 780 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:59,040 Speaker 1: You know, I was never a guy, right, I just 781 00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:06,800 Speaker 1: quit become h. I had I had stretched my childhood 782 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,960 Speaker 1: as long as it could, and I UH made mention 783 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,320 Speaker 1: to it. Uh. And because Grey Goose makes vodka for 784 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,839 Speaker 1: a living, that was the only thing that was ever 785 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 1: caught in a hundred and forty episodes or whatever it was. 786 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:25,320 Speaker 1: There was never an opinion that was deemed either inappropriate 787 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 1: or too dangerous or bad for business. That was I 788 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,440 Speaker 1: know that the folks who UH made the deal with 789 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:38,000 Speaker 1: the vodka company worried about I think me and maybe 790 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 1: a couple of the other guys. And there were some 791 00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:42,360 Speaker 1: changes personnel wies on the show that made it a 792 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,920 Speaker 1: little softer as time went on. But I was never 793 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:50,760 Speaker 1: told by Kevin Schultz my wonderful producer for all four years. 794 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 1: I can't say that I can't do that. He couldn't 795 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 1: take it far enough for him, and that was a 796 00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,480 Speaker 1: wonderful experience. I mean for for people don't even know 797 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:00,600 Speaker 1: what we're talking about. This was the Gray Goose nineteenth Hole. 798 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:04,680 Speaker 1: It was this lively show on the Golf Channel basically 799 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,680 Speaker 1: Monday through Wednesday, when we're gonna have tournament golf. You 800 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,760 Speaker 1: could fill those gaps and it had a little spice 801 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,120 Speaker 1: and it was really debating these two to the day 802 00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,880 Speaker 1: and it was kind of like the sports reporters remember 803 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,480 Speaker 1: that show, or a little like pardon my interruption, is 804 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:22,080 Speaker 1: point point counterpoint on sixty minutes for those who remember that. Yeah, 805 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 1: and you know now on the Golf Channel, like the 806 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,520 Speaker 1: Major weeks is great. You know, there's there's there is 807 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:29,520 Speaker 1: a lot of opinion because they do to live from 808 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 1: but otherwise week to week, I don't think they're looking 809 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:37,040 Speaker 1: for that that that kind of that kind of edgy content. 810 00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,319 Speaker 1: You know, they're they're kind of a broadcasts partner of 811 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,040 Speaker 1: the tour and it doesn't seem like they're welcoming criticism 812 00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,440 Speaker 1: of the product. And uh, you know it's that's kind 813 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,600 Speaker 1: of what we're talking about earlier, Like the whole tone 814 00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,520 Speaker 1: of the golf media has shifted, because back when we 815 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 1: were there in the nineties and the two thousands, it 816 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,120 Speaker 1: was a lot of newspaper guys and it's a competitive 817 00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,439 Speaker 1: business and everyone was fighting claw and to get great 818 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,000 Speaker 1: stories and to beat each other, and and there really 819 00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 1: it really was a beat like you're talking about Hawk, 820 00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:05,439 Speaker 1: Like if if you're covering the Yankees, you know, there's 821 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,919 Speaker 1: a lot of people and everyone and there's an energy there. 822 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,120 Speaker 1: And and then of course there was structural changes to 823 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:14,200 Speaker 1: the whole industry that affected everyone, but especially on the 824 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,280 Speaker 1: golf beat because it was a big city newspaper started 825 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,360 Speaker 1: contracting in the two thousand's, the first guy to go 826 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,359 Speaker 1: was was was the golf reporter because they still had 827 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:25,560 Speaker 1: to cover their football and basketball and baseball teams. But 828 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,160 Speaker 1: like I remember, used to roll up and and every 829 00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,480 Speaker 1: big city newspaper had a really talented writer, you know, 830 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:37,719 Speaker 1: from Dallas, from Orlando, from l A, obviously Chicago, like 831 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,319 Speaker 1: at Cleveland, you name it. Like these guys covered the 832 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:42,600 Speaker 1: game full time. And you'd go in the press room 833 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:44,160 Speaker 1: and there was big egos and there was a lot 834 00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,000 Speaker 1: of talent, and it was it was cool man like, 835 00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,640 Speaker 1: I'd love that energy. Uh. And one by one they 836 00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,880 Speaker 1: started to disappear, and and they've never really been replaced. 837 00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:58,360 Speaker 1: Remember let me let me throw this guy at you. 838 00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,200 Speaker 1: Remember back in nine when when the four guys, the 839 00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:07,200 Speaker 1: Brookline four rebelled against the uh the PGA practice of 840 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:10,960 Speaker 1: not paying the players. Remember how hard Lindsey Comb and 841 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,440 Speaker 1: all of Chicago column just ripped the players. I mean 842 00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:18,359 Speaker 1: it was it was, it was a little they were 843 00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:20,560 Speaker 1: driving a little bit blind. I mean, there were It 844 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,000 Speaker 1: was a realistic issue and that there were two sides 845 00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:25,640 Speaker 1: to it. And ultimately the players have got their way. 846 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,799 Speaker 1: They they found a nice compromise and money would be 847 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,880 Speaker 1: donated charity, and that's a practice that continues to this day. 848 00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,440 Speaker 1: But those guys were, oh my god, they were they 849 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:41,520 Speaker 1: were uh quartet. They were the collective pariah in the 850 00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:46,040 Speaker 1: golf universe there for for good month. Yeah. Yeah, because 851 00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:49,840 Speaker 1: I grew up admiring Dave Anderson at the times, you know, 852 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:51,239 Speaker 1: and then later got to know him. Did you have 853 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:55,040 Speaker 1: a guy like that? You know? I worked with John 854 00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:59,520 Speaker 1: Steadman at the very beginning, a little loopy, Uh, not 855 00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:04,120 Speaker 1: nearly as grounded as Dave. I was so lucky when 856 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,279 Speaker 1: I was at the Ball and when Hews American from 857 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,719 Speaker 1: early eighty four until it closed in eighties May of 858 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:14,320 Speaker 1: eighty six. I mean those were great. Two and a 859 00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:16,360 Speaker 1: half year had had a lot of guy Bernie Nicholas, 860 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,839 Speaker 1: Jeff Gordon, Mark Snyder onto that we just had not 861 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,160 Speaker 1: always not not not a ton of big names, and 862 00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,840 Speaker 1: many of them have probably long since left the business. 863 00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,680 Speaker 1: But boy, you know, we used to cover a lot 864 00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:34,560 Speaker 1: of games, uh NFC East games, and I knew all 865 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,439 Speaker 1: the guys up in your market, Bill Lyons and Mark 866 00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:40,280 Speaker 1: cran I mean there was there were so many great 867 00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:45,320 Speaker 1: newspaper guys. I was one of those dweeves who really 868 00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:50,799 Speaker 1: took it upon myself to read, uh all the newspapers. 869 00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:52,920 Speaker 1: I could get my hands on all the sports sections. 870 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,120 Speaker 1: I could get my hands on guys like Ron Borge's 871 00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,839 Speaker 1: or Mark him. I mean there's a million of them. 872 00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,680 Speaker 1: They were, they were, they were all great writers. I 873 00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:06,000 Speaker 1: never really had a Dave Anderson until I until I 874 00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,680 Speaker 1: got to Golf World Slash Golf Digest, and there was 875 00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:13,000 Speaker 1: Dave Anderson. But you know, my favorite, like every like 876 00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:17,279 Speaker 1: many of us, Jenkins was was Jenkins was God, kind 877 00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,960 Speaker 1: of like clapped in back in the old days. Jenkins 878 00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:23,320 Speaker 1: was God. I wonder what Jenkins would think of the 879 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:27,359 Speaker 1: kinder gentler Tiger called bullshit on Are you kidding me? 880 00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:30,920 Speaker 1: Was it you? Was it you who wrote on the 881 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,479 Speaker 1: subway well, Jenkins's God? Or maybe that was somebody else. 882 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:36,920 Speaker 1: I might have I might have grabbed this can of 883 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:42,520 Speaker 1: spray paint. He he was, he was critical, he was 884 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:47,040 Speaker 1: to the point, he was a master. And uh, you know, 885 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,239 Speaker 1: as hard as Rick Riley tribe will never have another one, 886 00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:55,160 Speaker 1: not like that. I met a guy today who uh 887 00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,959 Speaker 1: Tulson native, who just a fan but loved Jenkins so much. 888 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,640 Speaker 1: And I can't remember if it was the Oh one 889 00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:05,000 Speaker 1: Open or the Oh seven p g A, but um 890 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,000 Speaker 1: brought a backpack that had like four Dan Jenkins books 891 00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,359 Speaker 1: and somehow talked his way into the pressure and got 892 00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:12,400 Speaker 1: Jenkins to sign them. All. I was like, that is 893 00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:14,799 Speaker 1: an awesome story. He was more excited to meet Dan 894 00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:17,520 Speaker 1: Jenkins and he was to meet any of the players 895 00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:22,440 Speaker 1: in the field like that was tonight. Yeah, yeah, just yeah. 896 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:25,359 Speaker 1: I had a little book siding thing and who did 897 00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:27,680 Speaker 1: you want to sign him? He wanted you just signed Jenkins. No, 898 00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:29,440 Speaker 1: he just told me because we were he was we 899 00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,520 Speaker 1: were just talking to He's just a lover of golf literature, 900 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,520 Speaker 1: and and I was like, man, that's mad. Respect, Like 901 00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:38,560 Speaker 1: it's back a backpack full of books, like you're going 902 00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:43,759 Speaker 1: to the library. But well, tul Jenkins Country, Yeah, that's right, 903 00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:49,879 Speaker 1: the whole Southwest. He owned the sec. Yeah, he said 904 00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:51,919 Speaker 1: something to me, this guy that I met. He said, 905 00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,719 Speaker 1: a lot of guys can write about about golf, but 906 00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:59,200 Speaker 1: Jencken's a about golf, whiskey, sex, and chicken fried steak. 907 00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:02,200 Speaker 1: I said, I could maybe can do two of those 908 00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:09,360 Speaker 1: at most. Absolutely. I mean some of the loudest, some 909 00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:12,840 Speaker 1: of the greatest l wells of my life were courtesy 910 00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:18,680 Speaker 1: of Dan Jenkins. Yeah. He um. He was more fun 911 00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:20,960 Speaker 1: probably to sitting next to the press room than actually 912 00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:22,440 Speaker 1: read the stuff, because a lot of stuff you couldn't 913 00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:24,359 Speaker 1: get in the print. He would mutter through the corner 914 00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:27,360 Speaker 1: of his mouth and you could always hear tittering around 915 00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,880 Speaker 1: him because he was just so naturally funny and sharp. 916 00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:32,719 Speaker 1: How did you ever know a cops reporter in Baltimore 917 00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,240 Speaker 1: named John Wade Jennings. He was on the news American 918 00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,640 Speaker 1: He when the news American clothes. He came to the 919 00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:42,080 Speaker 1: inquiry He was a golf bumb like like us and uh, 920 00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:45,200 Speaker 1: but he was a cops reporter and he's just a natural. 921 00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,480 Speaker 1: Cops love talking to him. And one year I went 922 00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:50,279 Speaker 1: to the Uh, some kind of sheep. I don't think 923 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,160 Speaker 1: Alan was there behind me? Was there? There was a sheep? 924 00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,560 Speaker 1: Was s get together for writers hawk. You might have 925 00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:56,520 Speaker 1: been there. I think I'd remember if you were. But 926 00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:58,440 Speaker 1: it was in Carmel and we sat in a circle 927 00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:00,960 Speaker 1: and her legs across the arms or cross and you know, 928 00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,160 Speaker 1: we're doing the yoga thing and we're trying to close 929 00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:06,000 Speaker 1: their eyes and you know, and going to some happy place. 930 00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,239 Speaker 1: And I could not stop laughing because I was thinking 931 00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:11,680 Speaker 1: about this John Way Jennings from from Baltimore who would 932 00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:14,600 Speaker 1: come up to to the to the Inquirer. He came 933 00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:16,560 Speaker 1: to work in a T shirt. And if he saw 934 00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,440 Speaker 1: me they're contemplating, you know, the meaning of golf in 935 00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:22,200 Speaker 1: this kind of thing, he would have laughed his ass off. 936 00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,560 Speaker 1: And so that made me laugh uncontrollably. And then when 937 00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:27,760 Speaker 1: I was asked what was so funny, and I maybe 938 00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:30,080 Speaker 1: said something and they said, you know, they congratulated for 939 00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:32,120 Speaker 1: being for me to being in touch with my mirth. 940 00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:34,439 Speaker 1: But you know, this is this is the suic iron 941 00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:39,360 Speaker 1: society society thing. But we were lucky. John Allen's a 942 00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:41,520 Speaker 1: little younger, but we've been lucky that we've been able 943 00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:43,680 Speaker 1: to We caught the I mean I literally caught the 944 00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:47,480 Speaker 1: lesson to typewriters and uh, as you said, those guys 945 00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:51,520 Speaker 1: ripped dubal and uh and who was it? Uh Tiger 946 00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:56,120 Speaker 1: and o'mira and whomever else just because they didn't like it. 947 00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:58,919 Speaker 1: They didn't like it, and they're gonna let you know, well, 948 00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:03,040 Speaker 1: the ace of what people were used to go. Golf 949 00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,239 Speaker 1: is a Golf is a is a is an old 950 00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:11,040 Speaker 1: soul game. You know. It's it doesn't like change. It 951 00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:15,479 Speaker 1: doesn't take kindly to people who who step out of line, 952 00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:19,279 Speaker 1: even if they mean to improve things or do things 953 00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:21,799 Speaker 1: for the better. That's part of the reason why these 954 00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:27,440 Speaker 1: rival golf leagues are are considered anywhere between farcical and 955 00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:33,640 Speaker 1: another F word. I think there's a there's a certain 956 00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:37,880 Speaker 1: sense of reluctance to mess with the formula of that 957 00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:42,720 Speaker 1: has worked for so long. H Sometimes the Palmer player 958 00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:45,840 Speaker 1: Nicholas stuff can get a little old because it it 959 00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:49,879 Speaker 1: is fifty years old, and the oldsters will never give 960 00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:54,080 Speaker 1: the woods Is in the Michelson's and perhaps even down 961 00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,920 Speaker 1: the road the Mcarroys and the speech the credit they deserve. 962 00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:00,200 Speaker 1: But that's part of the beauty of the game is 963 00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:04,880 Speaker 1: that it changes somewhat reluctantly and slowly. And when you 964 00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:07,840 Speaker 1: come along and try to flip it the game on 965 00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:10,600 Speaker 1: its here, you're you're probably gonna get slapped upside the 966 00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,920 Speaker 1: head for it. It's extremely well. So, yeah, I have 967 00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,080 Speaker 1: to say, it's such a pleasure just talking about the 968 00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,200 Speaker 1: old things. I don't know how many listeners are going 969 00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:20,560 Speaker 1: to really go down this path with us. I don't know, 970 00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:22,359 Speaker 1: but that that last thing you said, Hawk was so 971 00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:25,360 Speaker 1: deeply true. I completely agree there word you said, Yeah, 972 00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:29,240 Speaker 1: I think so. Well, it's it's really fun to relive 973 00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:32,520 Speaker 1: all this stuff. John. I appreciate your time and your insight, 974 00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:36,760 Speaker 1: and uh, this is this has been a pleasure. Um. 975 00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:41,960 Speaker 1: Before we go, no, no, before we go, I'm gonna 976 00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,840 Speaker 1: give a shout out to our corporate sponsors at par Points, 977 00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:50,600 Speaker 1: who you know, they've invented this ingenious scoring app and uh. 978 00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,919 Speaker 1: The two founders become friends of Michael and mine. In fact, 979 00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,520 Speaker 1: we've dined to them and Tulsa this evening, and um, 980 00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:00,120 Speaker 1: it's just it's just a really cool way to as 981 00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,280 Speaker 1: you get back into golf Hawk and you're you're relearning 982 00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,000 Speaker 1: the game, you might, you might, you might pick up 983 00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:06,319 Speaker 1: a new trick. Is it does add a different layer 984 00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:09,280 Speaker 1: of of sort of intrigue. And this thing Hawk par points. 985 00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:13,520 Speaker 1: I've see these ads on for all these apps and 986 00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,720 Speaker 1: things you can that can keep track of your own game. 987 00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:21,600 Speaker 1: You know. I well, I'm a little I've got a 988 00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:23,480 Speaker 1: lot of that old soul in me too. I already 989 00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,239 Speaker 1: told my buddies I'm gonna come back and kick your 990 00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:29,000 Speaker 1: ass as soon as I'm ready to go, I believe it. 991 00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:31,319 Speaker 1: We'll try and get you up to date on the 992 00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:34,919 Speaker 1: new school stuff. But anyway, Johnny than thanks for your time. 993 00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:40,520 Speaker 1: Let's make this an ongoing conversation. And uh, Michael Allen 994 00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:45,560 Speaker 1: as always, it's a blast. Um, this has been a yeah, 995 00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:48,040 Speaker 1: it's been. It's been good stuff. This has been There 996 00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:50,640 Speaker 1: has been another Fire Drill podcast. We'll be doing this 997 00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:53,479 Speaker 1: off and on all week from from Tulsa. We're gonna 998 00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:55,600 Speaker 1: get Jeff Vogilly back on the line. For at least 999 00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:57,640 Speaker 1: one more and maybe two and maybe a few more 1000 00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:00,839 Speaker 1: surprised guests. Sure hurt. The other day he's talking about 1001 00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:04,120 Speaker 1: Tiger being the best player at that Melbourne President's Cup 1002 00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:06,640 Speaker 1: and to that body's falling apart. He's playing the best 1003 00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:08,920 Speaker 1: gain players in the game. But although he's back to 1004 00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:11,120 Speaker 1: the point, he's the only guy who actually really knows 1005 00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:12,840 Speaker 1: how to play golf on that course, you know, of 1006 00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:14,879 Speaker 1: course that good and shape the shots and actually play. 1007 00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:18,760 Speaker 1: It was so cool to hear him talk golf oto. 1008 00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:21,920 Speaker 1: We could talk forever to you might have to, you 1009 00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:26,759 Speaker 1: might run out of tape or whatever. That Yeah, that's it. 1010 00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:30,799 Speaker 1: Oh I think you're right, Yeah, for sure. All right, 1011 00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,320 Speaker 1: Well I'm gonna send the listeners home. But thanks to 1012 00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:35,719 Speaker 1: everyone who's been on this little journey with us. Thanks Allen. Yeah, 1013 00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:56,400 Speaker 1: we'll keep doing this. And all right, put another log 1014 00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:03,560 Speaker 1: on the fire. Nobody hears to get the time