WEBVTT - Who Wants To Live Forever? 0:00:04.680 --> 0:00:14.760 Technology with text from dot com here and welcome to 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:17.680 text to Hi am your host John from Strickland and 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:20.960 sometimes I'm known as strick or Baldy by my guest 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:24.720 host Josh Clark of Stuffy Chanel, j stri Jay Stretch. 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:27.000 That's true. How are you? Thank you for having me, 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:30.120 Thank you for being on the show. And when I 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:32.800 asked Josh what he would like to cover when we 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:35.680 started talking about the possibility of doing another tech stuff together, 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:41.840 you came up with a great suggestion, digital immortality. Digital immortality. 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:45.000 You know, I have a feeling the title of this 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:48.280 episode will be who Wants to Live Forever? Right, because 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:52.240 I'm a big fan of Queen. Yeah, who wants to 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:55.040 Live Forever? That came from the soundtrack to the hit 0:00:55.240 --> 0:01:00.360 film Highlander. Oh cult classic. Did Queen do the whole check? 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:05.720 They did Highlander and Flash Gordon? They did. I did 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:07.760 not know Highlander and I saw Highlander the other day 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:10.520 and I was like, not, hold up, No, the movie 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:12.399 is one of those that I wish we could just 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:16.000 wipe from history and redo because the concept is amazing. Yeah, 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:17.960 but that's not what we're gonna talk about. Although there 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:22.480 are immortals in Highlander, yeah, yeah, there are. Yeah, I 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:24.880 mean that's the that's the connection, right, I guess so 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:28.360 or Queen your love of Queen in Queen doing the 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:33.479 Highlander sound check. The mortality. Yeah, it's ultimately it all 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:37.240 goes back to uh tesla. No, we're gonna be talking 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:43.520 about digital immortality, this concept of using technology to extend 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:48.559 our lifespans indefinitely. Yeah, immortality. Yeah, to the point where 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:54.240 essentially until the sun burns out right and the great 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:56.400 heat death of the universe. Yeah, I mean yeah, because 0:01:56.400 --> 0:01:59.280 you could in theory, if you were had digital immortality, 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:03.320 there's nothing stopping you from hopping on a spaceship and 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:08.640 high tailing it somewhere else, or being transmitted it near 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:11.239 the speed of light. Yep. Yeah, you could be beamed 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:15.280 from one point to another and sure if you I 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:17.560 wonder what that experience would be like. Well, maybe that 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:20.880 it's that's the future of space travel. Physical space travel 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:25.000 is as digital beings, rather than maybe that's the while 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:28.360 we keep banging up against is the physical limitations, and 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:31.080 then that will finally unbridle us and allow us to 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:35.000 really do like interstellar travel, intergalactic travel, though presumably you 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:38.799 would have to have something you're beaming into well you 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:41.280 just purely digital, then you have to have something to 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:43.520 house that information. I mean, I guess you could just 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:48.280 be literally just information beaming around, but I don't know how. 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:50.200 I wonder what that experience would be, like I wanted 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:52.160 to be like going to sleep. Think about a laser. 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:59.520 The laser doesn't have any sort of infrastructure, and you're 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:03.760 trans meeting light information from one place to another at 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:06.160 the speed of light. Right, Well, what if we figured 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:10.440 out a way to digitize ourselves, as we'll talk about um, 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:13.120 and we were able to beat ourselves in much the 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:16.160 same way that a laser beams light. Right, But the 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:19.760 question is then, because if we are digitizing ourselves, we're 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:23.760 usually talking about that with the understanding that that digital 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:28.000 information rests on top of some physical architecture. Right, just 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:30.960 as software needs hardware to run off of, Right, you 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:33.360 need like fiber optics. Now, yeah, I'm saying, what if 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:35.960 you remove that, you figure out a way to remove it, 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:37.640 then there's no leye. If you can get to a 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.400 point where we become pure information and there is no 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:45.160 need for physical infrastructure beneath that, then we're golden. There's 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:47.160 no limit. Then I guess we would need some sort 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:49.800 of receptacle to beam into even on the end, even 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:54.680 if we don't have something connecting the two points that 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:59.920 if you're just gonna send someone ahead like all right, dull, 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:04.240 it's your job to set up all these these CPU talents, Bill, 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:07.600 do not let us down. Make sure they're all plugged in, 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:11.040 and please use one of those uninterrupted power supplies because 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:13.080 if if there's a blackout, we don't want you know, 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:16.320 we lost Lucy, and then make it over. Please don't 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:18.599 smoke while you're setting them up, Bill, because we could 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:20.880 smell it last time. It's dunk up the whole place, 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:23.599 right right. So to get down to what we're actually 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.520 talking about, you probably picked up on this. The idea 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:32.400 of digital immortality largely revolves around this concept of somehow 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:39.520 transferring human consciousness and experience into a digital format. Usually 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:42.719 the way we describe it as uploading your brain into 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:46.040 a computer. That's kind of the easiest way to explain it. 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:50.200 And there are a lot of really smart people who 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:54.120 have been talking about this possibility beyond saying it's hypothetical, 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:57.080 saying it will be possible or it will happen. A 0:04:57.080 --> 0:04:59.320 lot of people strut around like they're just cock of 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:01.960 the walks. They and it's gonna happen. And some sometimes 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:03.800 they even put like dat on things like this, Oh 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:06.080 ye know the guy we got to talk about to 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:11.040 be at least ray Kurt's watch. Kurtzwile Uh famous for 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:16.479 his futurism predictions, including the idea that we will reach 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:19.880 what is called the singularity. There's the point at which 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:24.440 technology is evolving so quickly that there is no meaningful 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:27.760 way to describe the present because it's changing that fast 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:31.560 and in the way I always think about singularities. Usually 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:35.320 it's also the moment where UM one of two things 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:39.880 has just happened. Either UM in AI has awakened and 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:44.880 become conscious right and therefore we it is now the 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:47.800 master of the universe as far as we're concerned, or 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:54.479 we it's the moment we merge biology merges with technology 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:59.920 at a point where we're able to UM remove ourselves 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:03.560 the limitations of evolution and chart our own courts from 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:06.160 that point on. Yeah, that's that's pretty accurate. I would 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:11.360 argue that there's also there's the possibility of developing UM 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:15.320 technology that allows us to genetically alter ourselves without having 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:19.279 to directly incorporate like computers or electronics into our systems. 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:22.000 That also can be It's transhumanism, is what we're talking 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:26.120 about here. We're like right there. Yeah, we're already kind 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:30.479 of happening, like very crudely, but it's we're like right there. 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:33.960 As far as that last definition, yeah, yeah, we're there. Well, 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:36.919 even with the incorporation of technology, we're getting there. You 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:40.359 look at things like cochlear implants, and while this is 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:44.839 this technology is specifically meant to give people who have 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:50.520 either lost or never developed a particular uh sense or 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:54.880 maybe some other form of neurological process. Uh you know, 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:58.159 right now, it's meant to address that. In the future, 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:01.320 it could be meant to augment, not just to to 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:06.680 repair damage or to address a loss of something. Right, Like, 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:11.720 the defining characteristic of trans humanism is that, um, you 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:19.200 don't want a blade prosthetic leg because the one you 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:24.560 were born with was removed. You want to blade prosthetic 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:26.360 leg because you want to be able to run faster. 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:29.960 It's not to it's not to make up for a loss. 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:32.679 It's to further, right, it's to go to the next 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:37.560 step exactly. So, Uh, this this singularity idea is very 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:42.360 closely related to digital immortality, and largely because of Ray Kurtzwild, because, 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:45.520 as it turns out, I think it's fair to say 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:49.080 Ray Kurtzwild has an issue with the concept of mortality. Yeah, 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:52.360 I was wondering, like, I don't know that much about Kurtzwild. 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:54.800 I mean, I'm slightly familiar, but you clearly know a 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:56.600 lot more about him than I do. And I was 0:07:56.640 --> 0:08:01.000 wondering if he is a like a fretful Annie, Like 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:05.600 does he constantly worry about misstepping and dying? You know, 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:11.560 people dying really weird, random mundane ways every day. And 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:14.400 I wonder if he just lives in literal mortal fear 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:18.679 of that. Well, he he is certainly taking great precautions 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:23.000 to extend his life because he does believe firmly that 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:26.840 we will reach this point in which technology will allow 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:31.000 us to extend our lifespans indefinitely within his lifetime if 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:33.960 he takes care of himself, so he he is determined, 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:36.440 he doesn't. I mean, you would kind of feel like 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.400 a like a dufus if you, you know, if you 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:42.160 were capable of feeling if you died the day before 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:46.880 they invented digital immortality. Right, it's the like the last 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:50.280 guy to die in a war right after like right 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:54.280 before there? Right, Yeah, there's a there's a great um. 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:57.680 Have you ever seen there's a British sketch comedy show 0:08:57.720 --> 0:08:59.800 called that Mitchell and Webb. Look, have you ever seen? 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:02.040 You've told me about it though, Yeah, it's it's a 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:05.960 two comedians, uh, David Mitchell and Robert Webb who do 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.240 this series. And one of the ones they they have 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:11.720 is it's just supposed to be off the cuff conversation 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:13.520 between the two so it's not in the context of 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:15.640 a sketch, so basically like what we're doing kind of 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:18.640 what we're doing now, except it's obviously scripted and ours 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:22.319 is not. But in that case, they have a conversation 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:24.920 where David Mitchell is very upset with the thought that 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:28.199 his generation is going to be the last generation to die, 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:33.200 and he is spiteful of the of the next generation. 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:36.320 He's mad at them for being able to live forever 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:38.720 while he has to die. Robert Webb is like, you 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:42.520 could just be happy for them, and there's no same 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:44.120 sort of thing I think with Kurt Swile is that 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:47.360 he's um taking great pains to take care of himself. 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:52.720 He's advocate for a healthy diet and exercise, which is fantastic. 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:56.040 He takes something like a hundred and fifty dietary supplements. 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:58.320 I'm going to have to correct you, and this is 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:07.520 from the article that you two's constantly taking pill you know. Yeah, 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:10.200 so that's uh. And and there there are plenty of 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:13.160 studies that have suggested that unless you are suffering a 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:18.719 deficiency of some sort, these supplements are not actually helpful. Well, um, 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:24.680 it's kind of like um, vitamin A. I believe vitamin 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:28.760 A H is known to help you see better. Pretty sure, 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:32.480 it's vitamin A UM. And it's been shown that if 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:35.640 you're especially like night vision is a little deficient, that 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:38.680 if you eat some carrots your night vision will improve. 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.720 So carrots do help you, But if it's already up 0:10:41.760 --> 0:10:45.239 to whatever your baseline night vision level is, you can't 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:48.040 all the carrots in the world and it's not going 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:49.559 to help it. As a matter of fact, you will turn. 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:51.920 My wife turned a little orange because she like carrots 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:54.959 so much when she was a kid. So, but she 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:57.920 couldn't see any better beyond her baseline night vision level. 0:10:58.440 --> 0:10:59.920 So I think it's the same thing as what you're 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:02.600 same thing with vitamin C. Right, once you hit a 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:05.400 certain level of vitamin C. Anything beyond that you're such 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:07.920 is just going to pee away. And in fact, vitamins 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:11.120 can become toxic. Much of anything is is toxic to 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:14.720 the human body because it speaks homeostasis. Right, So I'm 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:17.679 wondering if kurts, well, surely he's smart enough to know, like, 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:21.280 maybe I should cut this one out, or maybe I'm 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:23.760 taking too much of this. Well, it's also possible that 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:26.920 the reported number of supplements that he takes has been 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:31.360 you know, exaggerated, as it's been reported over and over again. 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:35.679 I am personally a little skeptical that he takes that many, 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:38.080 But at any rate, the whole point is that he 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:41.040 wants to make certain to live long enough to see 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:44.400 the day when his prediction comes true, that that we 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:49.200 will have the technological ability to port a person's mind 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:54.160 into some kind of electronic construct. May I point the 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:57.400 thing out I have, just while you were speaking, pulled 0:11:57.440 --> 0:12:02.559 out my calculator and Ray Chritswell takes a pill every 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:06.439 five point seven six minutes a day, assuming he stays 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:09.320 up all twenty four hours in a day, assuming again 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:12.640 that that number is in fact accurate, that the number 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:16.800 of supplements, not that I completely trust your math. Let's 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:19.600 talk a little bit about some of the concepts here 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:23.240 about how this could in theory happen. Now, obviously, we 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:26.160 are not at the point where we can create any 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:30.800 kind of hardware and or software that would allow us 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:37.360 to to migrate and intelligence from our meaty brains, right, 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:40.880 And that's a huge problem what you've just said, we're 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:46.360 we are dealing in something called software hardware, when what 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:49.640 the substrate that our our brains and consciousness exists on 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:55.160 is what you would term wetware biological material, and where 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:59.839 it's not necessarily analogous to a computer. Even though people 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:01.920 and to think of the brain is such, that doesn't 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:05.880 mean that it is the same thing. That's absolutely correct. 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:08.440 I mean, let's let's take memory for an example. Memory 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:11.880 is a great way to illustrate the difference between a 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:14.520 computer system and the brain. All right, So in a 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:19.320 computer system, you end up designating a certain space on 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:24.600 some medium, like on magnetic tape or in certain you know, 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:27.800 it all depends on whatever the form is that you're 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:29.200 saving it too, But at any rate, it all ends 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:33.400 up being zeros and ones, and it is unaltered. If 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:36.400 you call up a file and you know you haven't 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:38.080 done anything to it since the last time you looked 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:41.720 at it's going to be exactly the same there, unless 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:44.600 there's some sort of corruption in the file or you 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:47.000 have made changes to it and then saved it again. 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:49.920 You're not you know, it's gonna be the same experience 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:54.840 every time. Human memory totally different a memory is, and 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:58.600 we only sort of understand memory. Uh, we don't have 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:03.560 a full grasp on how memory works. But based upon 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:06.840 what we do know, when you experience something, your brain 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:10.359 creates a certain neural pathway in response to the stimuli 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:14.559 you are experiencing. So, for example, right here in this room, 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:18.880 my brain is thin hair. Your hair, the heat in 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:22.160 this room, the light in this room, little things, and 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:25.880 I'm not noticing everything. My hair look pretty good, isn't it. 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:28.160 You can start contrast with all the rest of the 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:34.120 experiences is amazing hair. So the these these pathways are 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:38.160 forming in my brain. Later on, assuming that I have 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:41.600 converted this particular experience to long term memory, which is 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:45.400 a pretty big assumption. Honestly, I can't remember what a 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:47.920 podcasted about two weeks ago. Yeah, I think my hair 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:50.080 is going to make it into your long term memory. 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:51.960 The more you say it, the more likely it's going 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:55.400 to happen. When when I think back on it, my 0:14:55.520 --> 0:15:00.120 brain will reconstruct that same pathway. So the memory is 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:05.600 essentially representative and the physical relationship between the various synapses 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:09.080 that light up when I have this experience. Right, So 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:14.360 there is a physical pathway that is retraced when you recall. Right, 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:18.200 but it's not like your memory of how great my 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:21.920 hair looks is sitting in one little spot of your 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:25.240 brain like it would be on a computer's magnetic tape. 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:29.440 It's distributed, and it's faulty because when I remember the 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:34.640 process of remembering, sometimes that that pathway doesn't form exactly 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:37.280 the way it did, and sometimes it adds new stuff 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:40.600 exactly I might fill in some gaps. Like imagine if 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:44.520 you opened a power point presentation that you've made and uh, 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:46.520 there are a few slides missing, but then there's some 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:48.400 new stuff and maybe it was a little bit better 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:52.480 than before. But you haven't done anything. Don't remember this transition, 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:54.240 but all right, we'll go with it. Just the very 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:57.000 act of retrieving it from your computer's memory and opening 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:00.440 it again changes it. Right. That doesn't happen computer, but 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:03.640 it doesn't human memories, right, thing, right exactly. That is 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:05.640 exactly what I'm saying. And the reason why I say 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:09.040 it is that that's a problem because if we are 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:13.040 ever to move from wetware in center brains to hardware 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:17.680 and software in the digital realm, unless we factor that 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:22.360 in somehow, like we create an algorithm that mimics the 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:27.400 experience of remembering something, the experience is going to be 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:31.640 fundamentally different. The experience of remembering will be totally different. 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:35.000 I mean, one of the reasons why I very much 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:39.960 argue against eyewitness testimony for things, especially for crimes that 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:43.800 might have happened a long time in the past, is 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:46.400 that our memories are faulty. Now, if we were in 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:48.720 this other experience where we had moved to hardware and 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:52.400 software and our memories were more analogous to computer memory, 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:57.640 that would not be an issue. Perfect. So, but that's 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.080 a that's't just one illustration of how this is a 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:02.680 tricky thing. It is tricky. And you say that, you know, 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:05.840 comparatively speaking, it sounded like your take on it was 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:10.080 that human memory is faulty compared to computer memory. I 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:12.240 I would positive that there's also another way to look 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:17.359 at it, that um, human memory is much more robust 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:21.040 and rich than computer memory because think about it, when 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:24.679 you say, smell something for the first time, and then 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:28.359 you smell it again and again, that that memory of 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:31.760 what something smells like is going to become more detailed. 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:34.040 There's going to be more to it, it will become 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:36.679 more refined, and it will be totally different from that 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:40.159 first sent memory that you created of whatever it was 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:44.520 you smelled. And so I would pose it again. Sorry 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:46.720 to use that word twice, but it makes me sound 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:52.280 pretty smart when I do um that that additional adding 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:54.959 new material, adding new stuff to it when you recall 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:57.840 things or when you experience something. The ability to make 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:01.240 your memory more robust and more rich and and to 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:04.320 be able to refine it just through recall, to me, 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:08.600 is superior to just straight here's the information that a 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:12.239 computer will give you, and it should be exactly what 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:15.040 you have before. And also with memories, we can associate 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:19.480 stuff that previously was not connected in our brains, whereas 0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:22.399 with computers, the way you do that as through meta data. 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:25.800 You tag stuff. Right, you're like, Okay, well, let's tag 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:28.640 this piece of information with all the metadata we can 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:31.960 think of that that that describes what this information is 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:35.040 really about. And then if I want to associate things, 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:38.480 I have to look for similar tags like but but 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:41.600 in my brain, it doesn't automatically, and it does it 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:45.000 in ways that you cannot necessarily anticipate, which can lead 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:48.840 to things like innovation, creativity. Yes, precisely, and you also 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:52.840 kind of hinted at something that's the big problem facing 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:56.520 the idea of uploading ourselves onto the internet strick. It 0:18:56.720 --> 0:19:02.959 is that with with men, we can figure out memory. 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:07.000 Will will eventually figure out how human memory works exactly. 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:11.720 And that's what There's a philosopher called David Chalmers. That's 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:15.040 what he's pointed out as the easy problem of consciousness. 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:19.520 We understand, we're going to understand how the mind functions. 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:22.960 Sometime down the road. We will figure that out. There's 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:26.480 a hard problem is what what Chalmers has also pointed 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:31.760 out in figuring out how phenomenal experience, our experience of 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:38.439 reality is produced from those processes. That that is the 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:42.040 big issue that is facing us trying to upload ourselves 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:44.760 onto the internet. It's like when you talked about meta. 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:48.119 The computer is not writing meta itself. It might be 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:51.760 able to simulate memory retrieval in its own way, but 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:55.520 it's not writing its own tags. It's not making these connections. 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:58.280 It takes a human consciousness to do that. And not 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:01.000 only do we not know how to make a computer 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:03.720 simulate that, we don't even know how we do that, right, 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:05.800 we may never know. There's a lot of philosophers out 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:08.040 there there like, we may never figure out the hard 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:14.000 problem of consciousness. Uh. Neuroscientists would say that clearly the mind, 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:17.000 which is what we could probably you know, use as 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:19.520 an umbrella term for things like consciousness and experience and 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:23.920 intelligence and the kind of stuff that that emerges from 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:27.800 the physical construct of the brain, because you can you 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:31.439 can observe changes to the mind when someone suffers an 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:34.560 illness or injury that damages the brain. And therefore it 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:36.760 stands to reason that the mind in fact is a 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:39.240 product of the brain. So if you could figure out 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:44.040 how to simulate a brain to a significant level of sophistication, 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:51.600 hypothetically you could have intelligence emerge naturally from that simulation, hypothetically, 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:54.399 hypothe Because we can't do it yet, the best we 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:58.240 can do right now is to simulate a few thousand neurons, 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:01.720 but there are know, we're talking about billions of neurons 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:04.840 and synapsis in the human brain. Yeah, from what I saw, 0:21:04.920 --> 0:21:09.080 the low but average estimate is something like EIGHTI six billion, 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:13.280 and the normal human brain I'm sorry, not synatha's neuron, 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:17.960 it's trillions of synantha. Right, So it's it's incredibly complicated, 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:20.960 and in fact, there's some people who suggest that it 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:23.680 may be to truly simulate a human brain, you may 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:25.760 have to go down to the molecular level, at which 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:29.399 point the computational requirements for simulating that brain are going 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:32.440 to be so vast as to be impractical or impossible 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:34.960 to achieve. Well, you mentioned the Blue Brain project in 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:38.560 this article that you wrote, um, and I was just 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:41.080 kind of skimming their website and they mentioned that in 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:45.920 their simulations it requires about a laptops worth of computing power. 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:48.680 They didn't say what kind of RAM or hard drive 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:51.440 for storage or anything it has. They just used a 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:54.000 laptops worths You can kind of let your imagination from 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:56.640 on with it, but that that was required just for 0:21:56.960 --> 0:22:04.199 one individual neuron to power. Yes, we're talking about billion laptops, 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:07.600 which is that's you know, should be great news for 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:12.679 the exactly any hardware manufacturers out there. Um, there are 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:16.119 actually quite a few different uh projects out there that 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:19.200 are attempting to simulate brains for one reason or another, 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:23.320 not necessarily so that we can pourt consciousness to them, 0:22:23.359 --> 0:22:26.520 but also to just study things like, uh, you know, 0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:30.080 how our brains work, how we might be able to 0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:34.800 treat brain damage or illnesses that that damage the brain. 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:38.880 That how how certain medications might react to our brains. 0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:42.240 Building these very complex simulations, so some of them. M I. 0:22:42.280 --> 0:22:48.040 T has a course on the emergent science of connect tomics. 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:54.520 I've seen that lately too. It sounds so full of bs, 0:22:54.560 --> 0:22:58.000 but apparently it's it's a real deal and and once 0:22:58.040 --> 0:23:01.480 you look into it, that makes total the terrible name. 0:23:01.560 --> 0:23:05.480 Connectomics is all about the connections that happen within the brain. 0:23:05.680 --> 0:23:08.200 And yeah it does. Connectomics sounds like it's some sort 0:23:08.240 --> 0:23:11.520 of weird economics course or like maybe an l. Around 0:23:11.560 --> 0:23:17.000 Hubbard book. Yeah, like Dinetics part two. Connectomics. Yeah, So 0:23:17.840 --> 0:23:20.320 that's an example. There's the US Brain Project, there's an 0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:25.880 EU Brain project, there's the Google project. Yes, and there's 0:23:25.880 --> 0:23:30.800 the Google Brain project. They hired Ray Kurtzwile. Yeah, he's 0:23:30.840 --> 0:23:35.600 their chief engineer, director of engineering. Yeah, for for specifically 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:38.840 for the Google Brain project. They I mean, clearly Google 0:23:38.880 --> 0:23:40.800 has just put their cars in the table. They're like, 0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:43.879 we're putting some serious resources behind figuring out how to 0:23:43.920 --> 0:23:47.960 get people on to digital consciousness. Right. It's it's one 0:23:48.000 --> 0:23:52.560 thing to think about this kind of you know, armchair 0:23:53.440 --> 0:23:57.560 computer scientists neuroscientists sort of approach, but they're really putting 0:23:58.119 --> 0:24:00.760 actual money towards research and development and on this stuff, 0:24:00.960 --> 0:24:04.879 including hiring another guy named Jeff Hinton who is a 0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:08.800 British computer scientist who who specializes in neural networks. So 0:24:08.840 --> 0:24:11.800 they're looking at using neural networks for lots of stuff, 0:24:11.800 --> 0:24:15.320 not just to simulate a human brain. I mean that 0:24:15.440 --> 0:24:18.239 might be part of it too, but neural networks can 0:24:18.280 --> 0:24:20.960 be really useful for processing different types of information for 0:24:21.040 --> 0:24:23.879