1 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: Technology with text from dot com here and welcome to 2 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: text to Hi am your host John from Strickland and 3 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: sometimes I'm known as strick or Baldy by my guest 4 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: host Josh Clark of Stuffy Chanel, j stri Jay Stretch. 5 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: That's true. How are you? Thank you for having me, 6 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: Thank you for being on the show. And when I 7 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: asked Josh what he would like to cover when we 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: started talking about the possibility of doing another tech stuff together, 9 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 1: you came up with a great suggestion, digital immortality. Digital immortality. 10 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: You know, I have a feeling the title of this 11 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: episode will be who Wants to Live Forever? Right, because 12 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of Queen. Yeah, who wants to 13 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: Live Forever? That came from the soundtrack to the hit 14 00:00:55,240 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: film Highlander. Oh cult classic. Did Queen do the whole check? 15 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: They did Highlander and Flash Gordon? They did. I did 16 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: not know Highlander and I saw Highlander the other day 17 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: and I was like, not, hold up, No, the movie 18 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 1: is one of those that I wish we could just 19 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: wipe from history and redo because the concept is amazing. Yeah, 20 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: but that's not what we're gonna talk about. Although there 21 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: are immortals in Highlander, yeah, yeah, there are. Yeah, I 22 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: mean that's the that's the connection, right, I guess so 23 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: or Queen your love of Queen in Queen doing the 24 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:33,479 Speaker 1: Highlander sound check. The mortality. Yeah, it's ultimately it all 25 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: goes back to uh tesla. No, we're gonna be talking 26 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: about digital immortality, this concept of using technology to extend 27 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:48,559 Speaker 1: our lifespans indefinitely. Yeah, immortality. Yeah, to the point where 28 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: essentially until the sun burns out right and the great 29 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: heat death of the universe. Yeah, I mean yeah, because 30 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: you could in theory, if you were had digital immortality, 31 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: there's nothing stopping you from hopping on a spaceship and 32 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: high tailing it somewhere else, or being transmitted it near 33 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,239 Speaker 1: the speed of light. Yep. Yeah, you could be beamed 34 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: from one point to another and sure if you I 35 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: wonder what that experience would be like. Well, maybe that 36 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: it's that's the future of space travel. Physical space travel 37 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: is as digital beings, rather than maybe that's the while 38 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: we keep banging up against is the physical limitations, and 39 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: then that will finally unbridle us and allow us to 40 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: really do like interstellar travel, intergalactic travel, though presumably you 41 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 1: would have to have something you're beaming into well you 42 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: just purely digital, then you have to have something to 43 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: house that information. I mean, I guess you could just 44 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: be literally just information beaming around, but I don't know how. 45 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: I wonder what that experience would be, like I wanted 46 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: to be like going to sleep. Think about a laser. 47 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: The laser doesn't have any sort of infrastructure, and you're 48 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: trans meeting light information from one place to another at 49 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: the speed of light. Right, Well, what if we figured 50 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: out a way to digitize ourselves, as we'll talk about um, 51 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: and we were able to beat ourselves in much the 52 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: same way that a laser beams light. Right, But the 53 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: question is then, because if we are digitizing ourselves, we're 54 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: usually talking about that with the understanding that that digital 55 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: information rests on top of some physical architecture. Right, just 56 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: as software needs hardware to run off of, Right, you 57 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 1: need like fiber optics. Now, yeah, I'm saying, what if 58 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: you remove that, you figure out a way to remove it, 59 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: then there's no leye. If you can get to a 60 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: point where we become pure information and there is no 61 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: need for physical infrastructure beneath that, then we're golden. There's 62 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: no limit. Then I guess we would need some sort 63 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: of receptacle to beam into even on the end, even 64 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: if we don't have something connecting the two points that 65 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: if you're just gonna send someone ahead like all right, dull, 66 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: it's your job to set up all these these CPU talents, Bill, 67 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: do not let us down. Make sure they're all plugged in, 68 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: and please use one of those uninterrupted power supplies because 69 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: if if there's a blackout, we don't want you know, 70 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: we lost Lucy, and then make it over. Please don't 71 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 1: smoke while you're setting them up, Bill, because we could 72 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: smell it last time. It's dunk up the whole place, 73 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: right right. So to get down to what we're actually 74 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: talking about, you probably picked up on this. The idea 75 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: of digital immortality largely revolves around this concept of somehow 76 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: transferring human consciousness and experience into a digital format. Usually 77 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: the way we describe it as uploading your brain into 78 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: a computer. That's kind of the easiest way to explain it. 79 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: And there are a lot of really smart people who 80 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: have been talking about this possibility beyond saying it's hypothetical, 81 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: saying it will be possible or it will happen. A 82 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: lot of people strut around like they're just cock of 83 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: the walks. They and it's gonna happen. And some sometimes 84 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: they even put like dat on things like this, Oh 85 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: ye know the guy we got to talk about to 86 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: be at least ray Kurt's watch. Kurtzwile Uh famous for 87 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 1: his futurism predictions, including the idea that we will reach 88 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: what is called the singularity. There's the point at which 89 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: technology is evolving so quickly that there is no meaningful 90 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: way to describe the present because it's changing that fast 91 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: and in the way I always think about singularities. Usually 92 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: it's also the moment where UM one of two things 93 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: has just happened. Either UM in AI has awakened and 94 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: become conscious right and therefore we it is now the 95 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: master of the universe as far as we're concerned, or 96 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 1: we it's the moment we merge biology merges with technology 97 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: at a point where we're able to UM remove ourselves 98 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: the limitations of evolution and chart our own courts from 99 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: that point on. Yeah, that's that's pretty accurate. I would 100 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: argue that there's also there's the possibility of developing UM 101 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: technology that allows us to genetically alter ourselves without having 102 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: to directly incorporate like computers or electronics into our systems. 103 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: That also can be It's transhumanism, is what we're talking 104 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: about here. We're like right there. Yeah, we're already kind 105 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 1: of happening, like very crudely, but it's we're like right there. 106 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: As far as that last definition, yeah, yeah, we're there. Well, 107 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,919 Speaker 1: even with the incorporation of technology, we're getting there. You 108 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,359 Speaker 1: look at things like cochlear implants, and while this is 109 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 1: this technology is specifically meant to give people who have 110 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: either lost or never developed a particular uh sense or 111 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: maybe some other form of neurological process. Uh you know, 112 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 1: right now, it's meant to address that. In the future, 113 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: it could be meant to augment, not just to to 114 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: repair damage or to address a loss of something. Right, Like, 115 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: the defining characteristic of trans humanism is that, um, you 116 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: don't want a blade prosthetic leg because the one you 117 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: were born with was removed. You want to blade prosthetic 118 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: leg because you want to be able to run faster. 119 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: It's not to it's not to make up for a loss. 120 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,679 Speaker 1: It's to further, right, it's to go to the next 121 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: step exactly. So, Uh, this this singularity idea is very 122 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: closely related to digital immortality, and largely because of Ray Kurtzwild, because, 123 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: as it turns out, I think it's fair to say 124 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: Ray Kurtzwild has an issue with the concept of mortality. Yeah, 125 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: I was wondering, like, I don't know that much about Kurtzwild. 126 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm slightly familiar, but you clearly know a 127 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: lot more about him than I do. And I was 128 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: wondering if he is a like a fretful Annie, Like 129 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: does he constantly worry about misstepping and dying? You know, 130 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 1: people dying really weird, random mundane ways every day. And 131 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: I wonder if he just lives in literal mortal fear 132 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,679 Speaker 1: of that. Well, he he is certainly taking great precautions 133 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: to extend his life because he does believe firmly that 134 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: we will reach this point in which technology will allow 135 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: us to extend our lifespans indefinitely within his lifetime if 136 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: he takes care of himself, so he he is determined, 137 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: he doesn't. I mean, you would kind of feel like 138 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: a like a dufus if you, you know, if you 139 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: were capable of feeling if you died the day before 140 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: they invented digital immortality. Right, it's the like the last 141 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: guy to die in a war right after like right 142 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: before there? Right, Yeah, there's a there's a great um. 143 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 1: Have you ever seen there's a British sketch comedy show 144 00:08:57,720 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: called that Mitchell and Webb. Look, have you ever seen? 145 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: You've told me about it though, Yeah, it's it's a 146 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: two comedians, uh, David Mitchell and Robert Webb who do 147 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: this series. And one of the ones they they have 148 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: is it's just supposed to be off the cuff conversation 149 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: between the two so it's not in the context of 150 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: a sketch, so basically like what we're doing kind of 151 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: what we're doing now, except it's obviously scripted and ours 152 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 1: is not. But in that case, they have a conversation 153 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: where David Mitchell is very upset with the thought that 154 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 1: his generation is going to be the last generation to die, 155 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: and he is spiteful of the of the next generation. 156 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 1: He's mad at them for being able to live forever 157 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: while he has to die. Robert Webb is like, you 158 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: could just be happy for them, and there's no same 159 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: sort of thing I think with Kurt Swile is that 160 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: he's um taking great pains to take care of himself. 161 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: He's advocate for a healthy diet and exercise, which is fantastic. 162 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: He takes something like a hundred and fifty dietary supplements. 163 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 1: I'm going to have to correct you, and this is 164 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: from the article that you two's constantly taking pill you know. Yeah, 165 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: so that's uh. And and there there are plenty of 166 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: studies that have suggested that unless you are suffering a 167 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:18,719 Speaker 1: deficiency of some sort, these supplements are not actually helpful. Well, um, 168 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 1: it's kind of like um, vitamin A. I believe vitamin 169 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: A H is known to help you see better. Pretty sure, 170 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: it's vitamin A UM. And it's been shown that if 171 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: you're especially like night vision is a little deficient, that 172 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: if you eat some carrots your night vision will improve. 173 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: So carrots do help you, But if it's already up 174 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,239 Speaker 1: to whatever your baseline night vision level is, you can't 175 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: all the carrots in the world and it's not going 176 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: to help it. As a matter of fact, you will turn. 177 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: My wife turned a little orange because she like carrots 178 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,959 Speaker 1: so much when she was a kid. So, but she 179 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: couldn't see any better beyond her baseline night vision level. 180 00:10:58,440 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: So I think it's the same thing as what you're 181 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: same thing with vitamin C. Right, once you hit a 182 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: certain level of vitamin C. Anything beyond that you're such 183 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: is just going to pee away. And in fact, vitamins 184 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: can become toxic. Much of anything is is toxic to 185 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: the human body because it speaks homeostasis. Right, So I'm 186 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 1: wondering if kurts, well, surely he's smart enough to know, like, 187 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: maybe I should cut this one out, or maybe I'm 188 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: taking too much of this. Well, it's also possible that 189 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: the reported number of supplements that he takes has been 190 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: you know, exaggerated, as it's been reported over and over again. 191 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,679 Speaker 1: I am personally a little skeptical that he takes that many, 192 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: But at any rate, the whole point is that he 193 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: wants to make certain to live long enough to see 194 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: the day when his prediction comes true, that that we 195 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: will have the technological ability to port a person's mind 196 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 1: into some kind of electronic construct. May I point the 197 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: thing out I have, just while you were speaking, pulled 198 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:02,559 Speaker 1: out my calculator and Ray Chritswell takes a pill every 199 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 1: five point seven six minutes a day, assuming he stays 200 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 1: up all twenty four hours in a day, assuming again 201 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: that that number is in fact accurate, that the number 202 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: of supplements, not that I completely trust your math. Let's 203 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about some of the concepts here 204 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: about how this could in theory happen. Now, obviously, we 205 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: are not at the point where we can create any 206 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: kind of hardware and or software that would allow us 207 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: to to migrate and intelligence from our meaty brains, right, 208 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: And that's a huge problem what you've just said, we're 209 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: we are dealing in something called software hardware, when what 210 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: the substrate that our our brains and consciousness exists on 211 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: is what you would term wetware biological material, and where 212 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 1: it's not necessarily analogous to a computer. Even though people 213 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: and to think of the brain is such, that doesn't 214 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: mean that it is the same thing. That's absolutely correct. 215 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: I mean, let's let's take memory for an example. Memory 216 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: is a great way to illustrate the difference between a 217 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: computer system and the brain. All right, So in a 218 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: computer system, you end up designating a certain space on 219 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 1: some medium, like on magnetic tape or in certain you know, 220 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: it all depends on whatever the form is that you're 221 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: saving it too, But at any rate, it all ends 222 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: up being zeros and ones, and it is unaltered. If 223 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: you call up a file and you know you haven't 224 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 1: done anything to it since the last time you looked 225 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: at it's going to be exactly the same there, unless 226 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: there's some sort of corruption in the file or you 227 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: have made changes to it and then saved it again. 228 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: You're not you know, it's gonna be the same experience 229 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: every time. Human memory totally different a memory is, and 230 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: we only sort of understand memory. Uh, we don't have 231 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: a full grasp on how memory works. But based upon 232 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: what we do know, when you experience something, your brain 233 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,359 Speaker 1: creates a certain neural pathway in response to the stimuli 234 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 1: you are experiencing. So, for example, right here in this room, 235 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: my brain is thin hair. Your hair, the heat in 236 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: this room, the light in this room, little things, and 237 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: I'm not noticing everything. My hair look pretty good, isn't it. 238 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: You can start contrast with all the rest of the 239 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: experiences is amazing hair. So the these these pathways are 240 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: forming in my brain. Later on, assuming that I have 241 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: converted this particular experience to long term memory, which is 242 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: a pretty big assumption. Honestly, I can't remember what a 243 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: podcasted about two weeks ago. Yeah, I think my hair 244 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: is going to make it into your long term memory. 245 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: The more you say it, the more likely it's going 246 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: to happen. When when I think back on it, my 247 00:14:55,520 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 1: brain will reconstruct that same pathway. So the memory is 248 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: essentially representative and the physical relationship between the various synapses 249 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: that light up when I have this experience. Right, So 250 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: there is a physical pathway that is retraced when you recall. Right, 251 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: but it's not like your memory of how great my 252 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: hair looks is sitting in one little spot of your 253 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: brain like it would be on a computer's magnetic tape. 254 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: It's distributed, and it's faulty because when I remember the 255 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: process of remembering, sometimes that that pathway doesn't form exactly 256 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: the way it did, and sometimes it adds new stuff 257 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: exactly I might fill in some gaps. Like imagine if 258 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: you opened a power point presentation that you've made and uh, 259 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: there are a few slides missing, but then there's some 260 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: new stuff and maybe it was a little bit better 261 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: than before. But you haven't done anything. Don't remember this transition, 262 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: but all right, we'll go with it. Just the very 263 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: act of retrieving it from your computer's memory and opening 264 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: it again changes it. Right. That doesn't happen computer, but 265 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: it doesn't human memories, right, thing, right exactly. That is 266 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: exactly what I'm saying. And the reason why I say 267 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: it is that that's a problem because if we are 268 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: ever to move from wetware in center brains to hardware 269 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: and software in the digital realm, unless we factor that 270 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: in somehow, like we create an algorithm that mimics the 271 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: experience of remembering something, the experience is going to be 272 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: fundamentally different. The experience of remembering will be totally different. 273 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: I mean, one of the reasons why I very much 274 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: argue against eyewitness testimony for things, especially for crimes that 275 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: might have happened a long time in the past, is 276 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: that our memories are faulty. Now, if we were in 277 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: this other experience where we had moved to hardware and 278 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: software and our memories were more analogous to computer memory, 279 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: that would not be an issue. Perfect. So, but that's 280 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 1: a that's't just one illustration of how this is a 281 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: tricky thing. It is tricky. And you say that, you know, 282 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: comparatively speaking, it sounded like your take on it was 283 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: that human memory is faulty compared to computer memory. I 284 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: I would positive that there's also another way to look 285 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: at it, that um, human memory is much more robust 286 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: and rich than computer memory because think about it, when 287 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,679 Speaker 1: you say, smell something for the first time, and then 288 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 1: you smell it again and again, that that memory of 289 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: what something smells like is going to become more detailed. 290 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: There's going to be more to it, it will become 291 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 1: more refined, and it will be totally different from that 292 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: first sent memory that you created of whatever it was 293 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: you smelled. And so I would pose it again. Sorry 294 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: to use that word twice, but it makes me sound 295 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: pretty smart when I do um that that additional adding 296 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,959 Speaker 1: new material, adding new stuff to it when you recall 297 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: things or when you experience something. The ability to make 298 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: your memory more robust and more rich and and to 299 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: be able to refine it just through recall, to me, 300 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: is superior to just straight here's the information that a 301 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,239 Speaker 1: computer will give you, and it should be exactly what 302 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: you have before. And also with memories, we can associate 303 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: stuff that previously was not connected in our brains, whereas 304 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 1: with computers, the way you do that as through meta data. 305 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: You tag stuff. Right, you're like, Okay, well, let's tag 306 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,640 Speaker 1: this piece of information with all the metadata we can 307 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: think of that that that describes what this information is 308 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: really about. And then if I want to associate things, 309 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: I have to look for similar tags like but but 310 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: in my brain, it doesn't automatically, and it does it 311 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: in ways that you cannot necessarily anticipate, which can lead 312 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: to things like innovation, creativity. Yes, precisely, and you also 313 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: kind of hinted at something that's the big problem facing 314 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: the idea of uploading ourselves onto the internet strick. It 315 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:02,959 Speaker 1: is that with with men, we can figure out memory. 316 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: Will will eventually figure out how human memory works exactly. 317 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: And that's what There's a philosopher called David Chalmers. That's 318 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: what he's pointed out as the easy problem of consciousness. 319 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: We understand, we're going to understand how the mind functions. 320 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: Sometime down the road. We will figure that out. There's 321 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: a hard problem is what what Chalmers has also pointed 322 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: out in figuring out how phenomenal experience, our experience of 323 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 1: reality is produced from those processes. That that is the 324 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: big issue that is facing us trying to upload ourselves 325 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: onto the internet. It's like when you talked about meta. 326 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: The computer is not writing meta itself. It might be 327 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: able to simulate memory retrieval in its own way, but 328 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: it's not writing its own tags. It's not making these connections. 329 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 1: It takes a human consciousness to do that. And not 330 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: only do we not know how to make a computer 331 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: simulate that, we don't even know how we do that, right, 332 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: we may never know. There's a lot of philosophers out 333 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: there there like, we may never figure out the hard 334 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: problem of consciousness. Uh. Neuroscientists would say that clearly the mind, 335 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: which is what we could probably you know, use as 336 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: an umbrella term for things like consciousness and experience and 337 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 1: intelligence and the kind of stuff that that emerges from 338 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: the physical construct of the brain, because you can you 339 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 1: can observe changes to the mind when someone suffers an 340 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: illness or injury that damages the brain. And therefore it 341 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: stands to reason that the mind in fact is a 342 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: product of the brain. So if you could figure out 343 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: how to simulate a brain to a significant level of sophistication, 344 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: hypothetically you could have intelligence emerge naturally from that simulation, hypothetically, 345 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 1: hypothe Because we can't do it yet, the best we 346 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: can do right now is to simulate a few thousand neurons, 347 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: but there are know, we're talking about billions of neurons 348 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: and synapsis in the human brain. Yeah, from what I saw, 349 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: the low but average estimate is something like EIGHTI six billion, 350 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: and the normal human brain I'm sorry, not synatha's neuron, 351 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: it's trillions of synantha. Right, So it's it's incredibly complicated, 352 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: and in fact, there's some people who suggest that it 353 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 1: may be to truly simulate a human brain, you may 354 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: have to go down to the molecular level, at which 355 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 1: point the computational requirements for simulating that brain are going 356 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 1: to be so vast as to be impractical or impossible 357 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: to achieve. Well, you mentioned the Blue Brain project in 358 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: this article that you wrote, um, and I was just 359 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: kind of skimming their website and they mentioned that in 360 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: their simulations it requires about a laptops worth of computing power. 361 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 1: They didn't say what kind of RAM or hard drive 362 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 1: for storage or anything it has. They just used a 363 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: laptops worths You can kind of let your imagination from 364 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 1: on with it, but that that was required just for 365 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:04,199 Speaker 1: one individual neuron to power. Yes, we're talking about billion laptops, 366 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: which is that's you know, should be great news for 367 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 1: the exactly any hardware manufacturers out there. Um, there are 368 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 1: actually quite a few different uh projects out there that 369 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: are attempting to simulate brains for one reason or another, 370 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: not necessarily so that we can pourt consciousness to them, 371 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: but also to just study things like, uh, you know, 372 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: how our brains work, how we might be able to 373 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: treat brain damage or illnesses that that damage the brain. 374 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,880 Speaker 1: That how how certain medications might react to our brains. 375 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: Building these very complex simulations, so some of them. M I. 376 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: T has a course on the emergent science of connect tomics. 377 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: I've seen that lately too. It sounds so full of bs, 378 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: but apparently it's it's a real deal and and once 379 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: you look into it, that makes total the terrible name. 380 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: Connectomics is all about the connections that happen within the brain. 381 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 1: And yeah it does. Connectomics sounds like it's some sort 382 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: of weird economics course or like maybe an l. Around 383 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: Hubbard book. Yeah, like Dinetics part two. Connectomics. Yeah, So 384 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: that's an example. There's the US Brain Project, there's an 385 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: EU Brain project, there's the Google project. Yes, and there's 386 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: the Google Brain project. They hired Ray Kurtzwile. Yeah, he's 387 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: their chief engineer, director of engineering. Yeah, for for specifically 388 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: for the Google Brain project. They I mean, clearly Google 389 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 1: has just put their cars in the table. They're like, 390 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 1: we're putting some serious resources behind figuring out how to 391 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: get people on to digital consciousness. Right. It's it's one 392 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: thing to think about this kind of you know, armchair 393 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: computer scientists neuroscientists sort of approach, but they're really putting 394 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: actual money towards research and development and on this stuff, 395 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: including hiring another guy named Jeff Hinton who is a 396 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: British computer scientist who who specializes in neural networks. So 397 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: they're looking at using neural networks for lots of stuff, 398 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: not just to simulate a human brain. I mean that 399 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,239 Speaker 1: might be part of it too, but neural networks can 400 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: be really useful for processing different types of information for 401 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 1: all sorts of applications, right true. And also, I mean, 402 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 1: if you think about it, just figuring out some of 403 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: the efficiencies that the human brain is evolved to include 404 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: as far as networking goes, if you could just even 405 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 1: get some insider inspiration from that, that could help tremendously. Yeah, absolutely. 406 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: There's some other great things I can mention. There's um 407 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: Ted Burger, who is a professor at the University of 408 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 1: Southern California's Center for neuro Engineering, who built a prosthetic 409 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 1: of the hippocampus. Now, the hippocampus is uh, hippocampuses is large. Yeah, 410 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 1: is lar argually associated with the formation of memories, also 411 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: with incorporation of emotion. But memory is a big part 412 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 1: of what hippocampus is involved in. So I think it 413 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: also um takes in century information, determines what region it 414 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: should be transmitted to, if it should go into long 415 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: term memory or that kind of stuff. It's kind of 416 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: like a big deal, big engineer in this case. And 417 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: so in two thousand eleven came up with a proof 418 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 1: of concept hippocampal prosthesis and tested it in live rats. 419 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: In two thousand twelve tested it in non human primates, 420 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: and supposedly sometime this year they're going to test it 421 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: in people. Man, that is amazing. So like, if you 422 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: have some sort of damage to your hippocampus and you're 423 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: no longer able to form memories, then this would be 424 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: the thing for you. Kind of yeah, I mean, this 425 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 1: could end up being depending upon the nature of of 426 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: the the problem. I mean, it could potentially be a 427 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,199 Speaker 1: treatment for things like Alzheimer's. Um Whether or not that 428 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 1: turns out to be the case, we'll still have to 429 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: wait and see, but it is very promising. Have you 430 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: ever heard of Henry Mollison. He is like one of 431 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 1: the one of the more facing, one of the more 432 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 1: famous patients, or to save time, you could just say 433 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 1: one of the more faiths um in as far as 434 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: memory studies go, because he had some he had I 435 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,199 Speaker 1: believe epilepsy, and some old timey doctor gave him some 436 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:29,919 Speaker 1: brain surgery and messed up his his hippocampus and the 437 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: guy was unable to form new memories from that point on. 438 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: He could remember everything up to that point under the surgery. 439 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: Then after that it was almost like his brain refreshed 440 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 1: every I think something like thirty seconds. And he was 441 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: just lived in an institution and was fortunately taken care 442 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: of by a few doctors that like really studied him 443 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: but also like really kept him from the public limelight. 444 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 1: His name wasn't published in the life he died, but 445 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: he yielded a lot of information about how memories are 446 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: formed thanks to the hippocampus. But it sounds like he 447 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 1: would have been a great candidate for that. Yeah, I'm 448 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: reminded of and I have to trust other people's uh 449 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: details of this, because I have no memory of it. 450 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: I had There was a time where I had a 451 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 1: kidney stone. It was so bad that I had to 452 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: go to the hospital and they treat me with a 453 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: very powerful pain killer that just knocked your hipocampus out 454 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 1: of a convention, I couldn't remember things. I had no 455 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: short term memory. Well, it makes sense. Like also, when 456 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,239 Speaker 1: you're drinking, um, your hippocampal function is is messed with 457 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: your You are not forming new memories, and you require 458 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,959 Speaker 1: the hippocampus do this. So if you're doing something, if 459 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 1: you're on drugs, if you have some sort of structural damage, 460 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 1: if you have been drinking, like that's why you're you're 461 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 1: not forming new memories. That accounts for a blackout, that 462 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: accounts for amnesia. Your hippocampus is just not functioning properly exactly. Uh. 463 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 1: There's another expert I want to mention, Enders Sandberg of 464 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: the Future of Humanity Institute at Oxford Universe. I am 465 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: a huge fan of that institute. Yeah, yeah, one of 466 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: my favorite people in the world works. There's names Nis. Yeah, 467 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 1: I know of Nick Bostrom. So Sandberg had said this 468 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: is a quote. The point of brain emulation is to 469 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: recreate the function of the original brain. So this is 470 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: talking about actually creating a copy of a of a 471 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,159 Speaker 1: person's brain, not just the concept in general, but in 472 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: the specific case of this person's brain. We're going to 473 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: recreate it digitally. If run, it will be able to 474 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: think and act as the original brain. We are now 475 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: able to take small brain tissue samples and map them 476 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: in three D. These are at exquisite resolution, but the 477 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: blocks are just a few microns across. We can run 478 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: simulations of the size of a mouse brain on supercomputers, 479 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: but we do not have the total connectivity yet. As 480 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: methods improve, I expect to see automatic conversion of scanned 481 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: tissue into models that can be run. The different parts exist, 482 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: but so far there is no pipeline from brains to emulations. 483 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: Now he thinks that it may be very difficult to 484 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: ever simulate memory in a computer the way that humans do, 485 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: for the very reasons we mentioned earlier. Um He also 486 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: points out that there is a problem with this particular 487 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: approach as the scanning essentially damages or destroys the brain 488 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: tissue because there's not a non invasive way. It's like 489 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: Heiberg all over again. Huh. You gotta pretty much crack 490 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 1: the nogg and open and mush around in the gray 491 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: stuff to find out, you know, to really scan it 492 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: and get that resolution. This this scanning would either kill 493 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: you or you need a freshly dead person, in which 494 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,719 Speaker 1: case there's no longer consciousness right right, exactly A big 495 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: so you could make You can make a copy of 496 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: a dead brain, which, as you point out, not really 497 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: that useful. Or you could make a copy of a 498 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: living brain, but in the process you kill the living brain. 499 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: You are left with the copy. Now, theoretically, this copy 500 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: would think and react in a way that would be 501 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: exactly the way the original person thought and reacted, but 502 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: the original person still dead. So, Josh, if you had 503 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: this done, there would be a Josh computer Josh Bought 504 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: two thousand and Josh Bought would think like you, would 505 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: have quips like you, better hair, with even better hair 506 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: than you, and feel somewhat smug about it. Meanwhile, Josh Clark, 507 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: the human being would be no more. And this comes 508 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: to another big problem in the concept of digital immortality, 509 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: which is continuity. Sure, so continuity being the continuous experience 510 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: of you as Josh Clark, whether you are in your 511 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: meat body or poured it over to some digital format. 512 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: I don't think that's that big of a problem. Really, 513 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: think a man every day there we we have gaps 514 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 1: in continuity. We go to sleep and then we wake up. 515 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: But you're talking about functional continuity. There's also a physical continuity, 516 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: and there's the real problem. So functional continuity is exactly 517 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: what you're talking about. It's our our experience that we 518 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: are having, and it does have interruptions, whether it's when 519 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: we go to sleep or we are put under for 520 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 1: exactly all of that. It could end up being a 521 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,959 Speaker 1: break in our functional continuity. We can recover from that 522 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: because the physical continuity, the stuff that's in our brains, 523 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: is still there, so that even though we have that reset, 524 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: we can come back and everything will be fine. If 525 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: the physical continuity is destroyed, as in the actual brain dies, 526 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: then you have a problem. Now. An interesting thing is 527 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: that I've looked at some neuroscientists uh and their work 528 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 1: and what they have to say about this, and it 529 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: was really interesting to me. There's a guy named Stephen Novella. 530 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 1: He's a neuroscientist, works at Yale. He has a great 531 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: podcast called Skeptics Guide to the Universe UM, and he 532 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: is a critical thinker and a skeptic. Uh. He has 533 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: talked a lot about this as well. He's blogged about 534 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: it and his idea or his perspective. The way he 535 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: communicates it is that as humans, we have brains that 536 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: are divided into two hemispheres. Now, through drugs or through surgery, 537 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: you can have one of those hemispheres separated from the other. 538 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 1: It essentially is rendered inactive. But the two hemispheres are 539 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 1: largely copies of each other. So even if this does happen, 540 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: you can have a relatively normal experience. You might have 541 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: find that some things are now very hard to do, 542 00:32:55,120 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: like math if your colossum isn't there exactly. Yeah, so 543 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: he says, but these two halves, which individually can act 544 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: as a single brain, work together, and we have you know, 545 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: even if you have the one shut down, the other 546 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: one can continue to work. You're still you, largely you. 547 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: So he says, what if we then extend this and 548 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: we make the assumption that yes, we have created the 549 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: hardware and software that will allow for the simulation of 550 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: a brain in in some way we connect that to 551 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: a person's brain so that it becomes an extension. It's 552 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: another part of the brain, kind of like a third hemisphere. 553 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: I guess. And and so this one is starting to 554 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: form pathways that mimic what your brain does naturally, so 555 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: over time it helps you think the way you think already. 556 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 1: It also starts to build in redundant memories, so it's 557 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 1: essentially backing up your memories. And gradually it's going to 558 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: act like it another hemisphere of your brain. And it 559 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: could even be more powerful. Potentially, you could do things 560 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 1: like include algorithms that like make it way easier for 561 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 1: you to do math. You'd be a math genius. I 562 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: would hope that if I were uploaded on the internet, 563 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: my math skills would just automatically improve. I would expect that. Yeah, 564 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 1: there's certain little like base assumptions you want to make, right, 565 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 1: that's one of them. It would be it would be 566 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: funny to be digitally immortal, but crap at math. So 567 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:42,719 Speaker 1: I guess you get made fun of by all the 568 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 1: other digital immortals. Very likely, you know, the Kurgan is 569 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: just taunting you before cutting off your digital head. Uh So, 570 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 1: the his point being that over time you would be 571 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 1: relying more heavily on the AI version of your brain, 572 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: that even while your meat brain goes to sleep, your 573 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,240 Speaker 1: AI brain could stay awake so that you know, you 574 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: you as you could remain active all day long because 575 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,760 Speaker 1: it's you know, it's it's your organic brain that's sleeping. 576 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 1: But your AI brain takes over, and it could get 577 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: to a point where you don't even really notice that 578 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 1: part of you as asleep, and you could theorectly reach 579 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: a point where your AI brain is doing the vast 580 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: majority of the work, so that the time when your 581 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: organic brain dies is a non event to you. Okay, so, 582 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: first of all, I could see the AI brain becoming 583 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: very resentful of the organic brain right having to do 584 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 1: all the work while it just lays around and sleeps. Right, 585 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: I don't know that the left brain gets mad at 586 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 1: the right brain. Mind us, they're always arguing they're at 587 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 1: odds they're doing it right now. Hey, guys, Josh and 588 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 1: I had so much to say about this topic that 589 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: it turned out it was long enough to be two episodes, 590 00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: not just one episode. So we're going to stop things 591 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 1: right here. You can find Josh's work at Stuff you 592 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 1: Should Know, including the website podcast. They do live events, 593 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 1: so check that out. And if you guys have suggestions 594 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: for me, whether it's a particular type of technology you 595 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,400 Speaker 1: want me to cover, or to do a profile on 596 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,760 Speaker 1: a person or a company, or even just a suggestion 597 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,719 Speaker 1: for another guest host or interview, let me know. Send 598 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: me a message that addresses tech stuff at how stuff 599 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 1: works dot com or drop me a line on Twitter, 600 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 1: Tumbler or Facebook to handle it. All three is tech 601 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,320 Speaker 1: stuff hs W and I'll talk to you again really 602 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:41,280 Speaker 1: soon for more on this and bathens of other topic, 603 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 1: is it housefs dot com