1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: Listener mail. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, 4 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: and it's Monday. Time to hear some of the messages 5 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 1: you've sent into the mail bag. We've got stuff about numeracy. 6 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: We've got stuff about super intelligent a I S. We've 7 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: got stuff about free san Uh. It's gonna be great, Rob, 8 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: Do you want to start with this message from Jim 9 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 1: in New Jersey? Oh? Yeah, Yeah, it's always great to 10 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: hear from Jim in New Jersey. Jim rights, it says 11 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: Robert and Joe, I have several thoughts on your recent 12 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: numeracy podcast. Mathematics is both invention and discovery. Your mention 13 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: of chess is a good metaphor. The sheet of paper 14 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 1: one gets in a department store chess set contains the 15 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: rules of chess. This is the invention. Most people can 16 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: learn the rules of chess in an hour. However, bookshelves 17 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: are filled with chess books. These are the discoveries of 18 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: chess that have emerged from the single page of rules. 19 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: People can spend a lifetime studying these discoveries. Mathematics is similar. 20 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: Euclidean geometry consists of five postulates, that is, invented principles 21 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: that define points, lines, etcetera. The theorems about angles, triangles, etcetera. 22 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 1: Are there discovered consequences. When these principles aligned with something 23 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: in the real world, such as the management of landownership, 24 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: then geometry can be used to manage land ownership via 25 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: surveying for which of our senses do we have this 26 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: innate logarithmic numeracy ability? And then Jim breaks it down 27 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: a little bit vision. I think we all agree that 28 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: we can look at two groups of things and estimate 29 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: their basic ratios pretty accurately hearing. While I can compare 30 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: relative differences in pitch and volume, I am not sure 31 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: I could do ratios accurately. Can I easily tell that 32 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: one sound is twice as loud as another? Touch? This 33 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: feels like hearing to me too. While I can compare 34 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: relative temperature, roughness, or weight, I'm not sure I could 35 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: do ratios accurately. Smell taste again, I feel like they 36 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: are hearing. In touch, I can compare relative strengths, but 37 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: I don't think I have the ability to compare ratios accurately. 38 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: If my hypothesis about logarithmic numeracy is accurate, then it's 39 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: mostly an ability of vision. Is it part of our 40 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: visual cortex? What form of innate ratio comprehension do people 41 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: blind from birth experience? I don't think that counting is innate. 42 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: We all learn it externally, usually from our parents in 43 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: counting fingers or toys. As we grow and continue into adulthood, 44 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: we constantly use external tools to keep track of our accounting, 45 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 1: such as fingers, numeric symbols, pencils and paper, advocacies, calculator, spreadsheets, etcetera. 46 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: Even when we do counting exclusively in our heads, we 47 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: store the numbers in our short term memories, and without 48 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: constant refreshment, the values disappear. If we had innate counting abilities, 49 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: we would need those external tools. I recommend that the 50 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: one hour fourteen BBC documentary The Story of One, hosted 51 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: by Ry Jones of Monty Python Fame. A search on 52 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: YouTube usually provides several copies, and Jim includes one for us. Uh, 53 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: he says. Jones traces the story of One, starting with 54 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: a twenty thousand year old bone found in the Congo 55 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: with a consistent number of scratched notches on it, which 56 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: cannot be done without the ability to count them. He 57 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: traces one through Samarian tokens used as a form of money, 58 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: through Roman numerals, and into our modern era Jim in 59 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 1: New Jersey. Oh, a lot of interesting ideas here, Jim. 60 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: So this one obviously came in between our two episodes 61 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: on Numerousy because at the end here Jim is is 62 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: referencing the Ishango bone, which we talked about in the 63 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: second episode, which you know, is a very interesting artifact 64 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: from about twenty thousand years ago discovered in the Varunga 65 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: region of the Congo, and it appears to be I mean, 66 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: it's hard to be perfectly sure, but it really looks 67 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: like some kind of ancient mathematical technology, some sort of 68 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: aid to counting or computation, and as these interesting patterns 69 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: of numbers of scratches on it, such as one column 70 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: that contains all the prime numbers between ten and twenty, 71 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: and another column that at least partially is composed of 72 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 1: pairs of doubles, and then another column that contains ten 73 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 1: plus and minus one and twenty plus and minus one. Uh. 74 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: And so it's hard to know exactly how to interpret 75 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: that bone, but it's a super interesting artifact. And so 76 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 1: I agree if the numbers of slashes are significant, and 77 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: it would be a real coincidence. If they're not significant, 78 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 1: it seems like they probably are. This indicates some kind 79 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: of counting and computation going on, though it's still up 80 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: for debate exactly how best to interpret this thing. Yeah, 81 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 1: and that documentary sounds sounds especially interesting. I've seen a 82 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: couple of things that Terry Jones, the late Terry Jones 83 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: UM hosted various documentaries, and he was always delightful. So 84 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: I haven't seen this one, but I'll have to check 85 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: it out. It sounds like it it touches on some 86 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: of the the basic beats that we touched on in 87 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: these episodes. Uh, but of course I'd love to the visuals. 88 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: You know, this may be a kind of tried observation, 89 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: but I was just thinking about when in the earlier 90 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: part of the email, when Jim is talking about the 91 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 1: difference between mathematics being a discovery of something pre existing 92 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 1: in the universe or human invention and and sort of 93 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: straddling the difference there. Um, you know, I thought about 94 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: how actually at least the way Jim is talking about 95 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: it is sort of similar to how you can think 96 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: about language itself. So language is obviously a human invention. 97 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: The words of your language were not like waiting out 98 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: there in the universe to be discovered. They were made 99 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: up by humans at some point. And yet with language 100 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: you can construct statements about the universe that are true. Alright, 101 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: This next message comes from Josh. Josh says, Hi, Joe, Robert, 102 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: and Seth, your episode on numbers brought to mind a 103 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: project that I just turned in for a computing class. 104 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: I chose to write a program that modeled the three 105 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: D flight of a frisbee, including drag and lift and 106 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: accounting for the tilt of the disc as it is thrown. 107 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: Let's just say there is a reason nearly all projectile 108 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: motion problems are done in a vacuum. The governing equation 109 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: was a nonlinear vector differential equation. Uh And then he says, 110 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:17,919 Speaker 1: feel free to skip the next three paragraphs if you 111 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: don't want a full explanation. We'll try him out here. 112 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: Uh So, Josh says, a differential equation in a projectile 113 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: motion uh sense, is where the acceleration of an object 114 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: is a function of its velocity. Think of something in 115 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: free fall approaching terminal velocity. Okay, that makes sense. A 116 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 1: nonlinear differential equation is one where something is done to 117 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: the velocity in the equation other than multiplying it by 118 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: a constant, such as squaring it. My equation involved the 119 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 1: Pythagorean theorem. Math doesn't have a way to solve them 120 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: that I or the instructor were aware of. Uh. And 121 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,679 Speaker 1: then a vector equation means that there are actually three 122 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: equations in one one for X, one for y, and 123 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: one for z, and there can be more, but we 124 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,239 Speaker 1: don't have a fourth to mention. To find the initial 125 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:04,679 Speaker 1: speed and velocity that are needed to hit a target, 126 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: the equation has to be quote solved. As I said above, 127 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: that isn't possible with my equation. The only thing I 128 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: could do was plot an approximate path for the frisbee 129 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: based on a guess. I never hit the virtual target. 130 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: Contrast that with a human and even with some animal brains, 131 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: without actually thinking any numbers or ever being consciously aware 132 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: of what they're doing. A person can do in their 133 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: head what was practically impossible for the computer. With enough practice, 134 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: a person can hit a target with a frisbee in 135 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: strong cross winds, essentially solving my non linear vector differential equation. 136 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: Computers are great, but there is a long way to 137 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: go before we will match the human brain with transistors. 138 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: The doctoral student who is teaching the class said that 139 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: there have been studies on how we do these kinds 140 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: of mental simulations that might be an interesting topic for 141 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: a future episode. All the best, Josh, Josh, I think 142 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: this is a great point. This is something I we 143 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: we've actually talked about on the show a long time ago, 144 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: in the in the deep past, about all of the 145 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: amazing approximate calculation that's done by the brain. And I 146 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: think this is another great example of how using exact 147 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: values and having an arithmetic sense of quantities and numbers 148 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: is maybe not always the most useful for all the 149 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: kinds of things humans would need to do. In fact, 150 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: for a lot of things humans need to do, it's 151 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: better to have a sort of approximate judgment since than 152 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: it is to try to work out exact values. All right, 153 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: let's move on to another one. This one comes to 154 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: us from Lawrence. Hey, guys, dropping a note to pick 155 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: a knit with you. I just listened to your episode 156 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: on numerous e in which you expressed the belief that 157 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: a dog might judge a quantity of meat by smell. Specifically, 158 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: you suggested that if you were to cut a one 159 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: ounce piece of meat into two pieces, the dog would 160 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: smell the same amount. Well, I don't know. The ants 161 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: are definitively I disagree. I think cutting the meat would 162 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 1: increase the amount of smell because it would increase the 163 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: surface area of the meat. Uh and the surface is 164 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: where the meat interacts with the air. It would not, however, 165 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: double the smell because it would not double the surface area, 166 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: even though it would double the number of pieces. Of course, 167 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: I haven't tested this. It's an educated guest on my part. 168 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: Thanks for the episode, Lawrence. Yeah, I was the one 169 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 1: who who suggested that. Lawrence, actually, just like seconds after 170 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: I said that in the podcast, I was thinking the 171 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: same thought that you just wrote in with That's one 172 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 1: of the perils of talking for a living. So yeah, 173 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: I think you're right. Probably increasing surface area would increase 174 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: the amount of smell. That would just be a guest though. 175 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: Have you not experimented with your dog Charlie yet? No, 176 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: I don't know how I test that. If you can 177 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: not think that he wants you to test this, that 178 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: you should get some meat and start slicing it up 179 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: in the kitchen, measure the surface area, build a little 180 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 1: maze where he has to choose one path or another there. 181 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: But Lawrence, you're exactly right. This actually brings up a 182 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: little meta question about creating this podcast. I mean, it 183 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: often happens that, like I say something off the cuff 184 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: on the show, and then later, maybe even seconds after 185 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: I say it, I'm sort of doubting what I said, 186 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: and then you come to the question of, Okay, now 187 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: do we need to do I need to try to 188 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: screw around with that in editing and like take that 189 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: out or just leave it in because it was my 190 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 1: thought at the time. I don't know that this is, 191 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: as I say, one of one of the perils of 192 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: talking into a microphone. Yeah. Well, I think with the 193 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: with the dog meat smell question in that particular episode, 194 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 1: we did couch it as as in in terms of 195 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: sort of idle speculation on our part um. So so 196 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: hopefully the hope is that that when we do engage 197 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 1: in speculation and sort of wonder out loud how things 198 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: might come together, that that those parts of the podcast 199 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: will will be more obvious, and you know, we'll come 200 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: across a little differently as a put to us citing 201 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: material and you know, and making a more research case 202 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 1: for various other aspects of the episode. Sure, I think 203 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: we actually take great pains to make clear when we're 204 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: just sort of like spit bawling and when we're actually 205 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: citing citing something as fact, at least we try to. Okay, 206 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: This next message is about our episode on super intelligent 207 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: alien Aiyes, and this comes from E n H. This 208 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: was a great email, but it was very long, so 209 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: I had to make some some major cuts to it. 210 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: I'm just going to read some parts of it. I've 211 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: already done some some paring down here, uh Ian says 212 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: dear Rob and Joe. The episode I'm writing about today's 213 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: your episode on super intelligent alien aies and what their 214 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 1: nature might be. Part of your discussion about distributed intelligence 215 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: reminded me of the Gath, a race of intelligent machines 216 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: in the Mass Effect video game series. Rob, have you 217 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: played these I played part of one. I know they're 218 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: very well reviewed and U I, um, yeah, I've always 219 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: meant to pick them up, but it just hasn't happened 220 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:11,959 Speaker 1: for one reason or another. I played them years ago 221 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: and really enjoyed them. Some some really good world building 222 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: in that, like unusually good sci fi world building, smart, 223 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 1: sort of thought out politics of space cool. I think 224 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: they're rereleasing them or something like they're remastering the originals. Uh, yeah, 225 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: they just rereleased them. Actually, I've been excited to go 226 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: back and revisit them at some point. Whatever, I'll check 227 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: it out. Yeah. Anyway, so Ian goes on to explain 228 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: with with these particular characters. He says in the game, 229 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: the Gath were created hundreds of years ago by an 230 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: alien race called the Koreans, which triggered a Terminator style 231 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 1: war that resulted in the Koreans being exiled from their 232 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: home planet and becoming space nomads. As an aside, there's 233 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: a neat twist here on the Ai war. It was 234 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 1: the organics who started it. The precipitating of event was 235 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 1: one of them asking its quorey and owner, does this 236 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: unit have a soul? Once the Koreans realized the Gath 237 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: had become sentient, they the Koreans attempted to wipe the 238 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: Gath out before they could start a terminator style uprising. 239 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: Their strategy backfired spectacularly. However, once the Gath had won 240 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: the war and the Koreans fled, they did not give 241 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: chase and instead just became isolationists, preferring to be left 242 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,239 Speaker 1: alone and do their own thing. The reason your discussion 243 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 1: reminded me of the Gath was because of their nature. 244 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,959 Speaker 1: They are software, not directly tied to particular hardware. Each 245 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 1: individual GATH is simply a copy of a not terribly 246 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: intelligent piece of software designed to assist with menial tasks. 247 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: In order to improve efficiency and allow them to perform 248 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 1: more complicated tasks, the Koreans designed them to share computational 249 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 1: resources with each other. Eventually, this led to the Gath 250 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: becoming sentient, but it's only group sentience. Individual GATH process 251 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: is are not intelligent enough to be self aware on 252 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:06,079 Speaker 1: their own. They require a certain number of them operating 253 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: in tandem to reach that point. They quote govern by 254 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 1: what they call consensus, which involves rapidly sharing information between 255 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: different processes until all agree on the appropriate course of action, 256 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: or at least all of the processes within range of 257 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: the hardware platform making the decision. It's acknowledged in the 258 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: game that this type of decision making could never work 259 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: for organic races, as it would simply take too long 260 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: and differing viewpoints make that kind of absolute agreement impossible. 261 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: The get, however, being essentially many copies of the same 262 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: piece of software, fundamentally all think alike and so are 263 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: able to come to unanimous agreement despite their being uncounted 264 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: trillions of quote individuals participating. Even with this superspeed essentially 265 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: telepathic communication, they're limited by the laws of physics and 266 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: their ability to coordinate over large distances. For instance, a 267 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: fleet in one star system cannot direc actually communicate with 268 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: the main GATH civilization, and so operates at reduced capacity 269 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: using only the local hardware. It would then be reincorporated 270 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: into the greater consensus upon return, bringing its knowledge and 271 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: experiences from the trip with it. As a result, the 272 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: grand project toward which all GATH activity is directed is 273 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: the creation of a Dyson swarm with sufficient processing and 274 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: storage capacity to allow all GATH processes to be uploaded 275 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: into it and truly become a single thinking group. I 276 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: think this tied in well with your discussion of a 277 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: s I S or artificial superintelligence is keeping themselves localized 278 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: to maximize computational efficiency. Apparently the game developers at BioWare 279 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: had similar thoughts. And then there's a part where Ian 280 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: also talks about a plant that controls living beings with pheromones. 281 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: I'm gonna skip ahead to follow up on this earlier 282 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: idea raised about AI s here. Ian says, I wanted 283 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: to share some of my own thoughts about the isolationist 284 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: or localized artificial sup or intelligence as you discussed. As 285 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: I understood the argument, it was that a s I 286 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: S would tend to stay localized enough that all parts 287 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: of themselves could communicate efficiently in order to maximize processing 288 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: capability and an ability to consider everything available to it. 289 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: I think this was part of Susan Schneider's argument that 290 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: they would be stay somewhat localized too to be able 291 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: to talk to all parts of itself. Ian says, I'm 292 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: not convinced by this argument for two main reasons. The 293 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: first is that expanding outside of the efficient communication bubble 294 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: does not actually decrease the processing efficiency of the intelligence 295 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: within that bubble. The fact that it's expanded portions would 296 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: have access to information and processing capability it does not 297 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: is a change from if it had never expanded at all. 298 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: Either way, it does not have that information or capacity. 299 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: This is not so much a reason to expand as 300 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: a critique of the efficient processing justification as to why 301 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: it might not expand. My second objection is more related 302 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: in the context of the discussion than the argument itself. 303 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: The discussion began by considering what types of alien civilizations 304 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 1: we might be likely to discover. In that context, a 305 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: size that remain localized are largely irrelevant. There could be 306 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: millions of Dyson swarm localized A s I s scattered 307 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: throughout the galaxy, but if even one A s I 308 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: was motivated to expand, that is the one we would 309 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: most likely encounter. Ultimately, it's a variation on the Fermi paradox. 310 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: Even if it is vanishingly unlikely that any given civilization 311 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 1: might be motivated to expand, given the numbers and ages 312 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: of stars and the time scales involved, someone should have 313 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,719 Speaker 1: colonized the entire galaxy by now, with four hundred billion 314 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,120 Speaker 1: stars to potentially give rise to life. Anything that prevents 315 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 1: expansion into wider regions has to be absolute, not just 316 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: a tendency, or someone would have already become the exception, 317 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: and Ian says at the end, sorry this email and 318 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: ended up so long. Thank you so much for all 319 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: the interesting discussions and food for thought you provide in Well, 320 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: that's that's all very fascinating, I mean, and certainly it 321 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: makes me more inclined to check out these games in 322 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: the future. Yeah. Yeah, Like I said, really solid world building. 323 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: I remember that the Gath storyline was was super interesting 324 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: development and and it gets especially interesting with some twists 325 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: in the second game that I don't want to spoil. 326 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 1: Are the Gath that they're not little bird people? Right? 327 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 1: Those are the Geck for bird people? Yeah, oh you're 328 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 1: thinking in No Man's Sky? Yeah, No Man Sky that yeah, ye, 329 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 1: creatures you encounter. I reme rather taken with the Geck. 330 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: I like. I like their their character design, little sort 331 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: of reptilian parrot type creatures. It's been a while, but 332 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: I remember I made my character and No Man's Sky 333 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: this little thing that had a floating birdhouse for a head. 334 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: You can do that. Oh yeah, yeah, they do have 335 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 1: some cool changes you can make to it. But maybe 336 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 1: if I ever go back to it, I'll get ghecked up. 337 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: All right. Here is a bit of listener mail from 338 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: Dalen that in which they chime in on one of 339 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: our favorite topics of discussion on the Listener Mail episodes, 340 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: and that is, of course Sean Connery's accent in the 341 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: movie Highlander and Highlander two. Uh So, Dallen writes, it's 342 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: time for me to enter the Sean Connery accent arena. 343 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,400 Speaker 1: As an actor, I have learned several different dialects and accents. 344 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: I have become fluent in a British RP basically the 345 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: standard pronunciation without regionalisms, and several other British dialects along 346 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 1: with Irish, and working on Scottish in my practice with 347 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: French and German and my experience otherwise. Once you know 348 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: what to look for, you can definitely here where a 349 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: non English speaker learned English. Most of it is how 350 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 1: open or close the vowels are. Something a lot of 351 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: people don't think about is when an American and a 352 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: person from the UK speak Russian, for example, the name 353 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: if Russian speaker can hear the American and British accents 354 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: in their voices, even if that's something we wouldn't pick 355 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: up on at all. I will end this here because 356 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: I could accidentally turn this into a forty page essay. 357 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,719 Speaker 1: Thank you, Dalen. Well, that's great, that's just some additional 358 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:19,120 Speaker 1: food for thought about just how accents work and how 359 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: they work within language acquisition. Um. And of course it's 360 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: great that we're hearing from an actor who's who's who's 361 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: working on developing these different accents, and and certainly at 362 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: times that there are examples of actors who who have 363 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: proven themselves rather phenomenal at at at taking on different accents, 364 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: you know, many times with the help of an accent coach. 365 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: Sean Connery, of course, was not one of these actors. Uh. 366 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: And and we should drive home again that outside of 367 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 1: of of the fantasy and the fiction and the dream 368 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 1: weaving of of highlander and Highlander to the real reason 369 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 1: here is that Sean Connery couldn't slash, wouldn't do another accent. 370 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 1: So if somebody they were scared to ask him, I 371 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,439 Speaker 1: haven't I actually haven't researched this a lot, but I 372 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: feel like I I vaguely remember reading about there being 373 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 1: maybe a project or two where it was requested and 374 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: perhaps he tried, but it just simply was not meant 375 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: to be. And and ultimately, like, come on, you're casting 376 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: Sean Connery. You're gonna get Sean Connery doing Sean Connery's 377 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: own voice. That's just that's just how it worked. The 378 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: did he ever try a Russian accent and hunt for 379 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: Red October? I don't think so. That may have been 380 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: the one where there was like some talk at some 381 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: point about would he do a Russian accent and you 382 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: know clearly he did not. Um. But then again, you 383 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: get into accent I mean, it all gets kind of 384 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: silly rather quickly when you know you have a situation 385 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,239 Speaker 1: where characters would be speaking Russian, uh, they would not 386 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 1: be speaking American with a Russian accent. You know, you 387 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 1: get into a lot of this with with certainly your 388 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: movie romans, who often, you know, we're speaking British accents, 389 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: British accent, proper British accents and fact, to tie into 390 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: two Dallin's messes, not just British accents, but received pronunciation 391 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: like very the very posh Tory British accent. Yeah. Though, 392 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: if if memory serves, there's a recent German series uh 393 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: that is about the Roman Empire, in which they actually 394 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: go to the trouble of having their Romans speak um uh. 395 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 1: You know, accurate Latin of the day. Oh, I'm blanking 396 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: on what this show is called. Um. I think it 397 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: is perhaps called Barbarians. Yes, I think it's Barbarians. Um. 398 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: I only watched one episode, so I really didn't get 399 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: enough into it to really, you know, to really get 400 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: into the series. So I don't I I can't recommend 401 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: it or not recommend it because I just didn't push 402 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 1: forward enough. But I was impressed that the Romans are 403 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: speaking actual Latin in this series. It's it's it's a 404 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 1: pretty pretty ambitious concept. How did they pronounce the word caesar? Oh, 405 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: I don't remember. I don't know if Caesar came up. 406 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: They're they're very as I recall, they're very into into 407 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: some regional issues. But I I don't remember. I should 408 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: probably give the series another look. Okay. This next message 409 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: is about the episode that I did with our producer 410 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: Seth about free Saan the feeling of getting a shiver 411 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 1: in the body from listening to music. Um. This comes 412 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: from Renata Renata and the subject line is music lover 413 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: with no Freeeson. Renada begins, Hi, guys, I thought i'd 414 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: offer myself as an interesting data point. I'm a music nerd. 415 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: A woman and have had a strong emotional connection to 416 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: music for as long as I can remember. I can 417 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 1: almost feel the dopamine releasing in my brain when I 418 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:47,880 Speaker 1: listen to certain music, but I don't experience freezon no chill, 419 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: no shiver, no goose bumps. I get that feeling from 420 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: other emotional responses, for example, certain emotional moments in movies, 421 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: but I can't remember any experience of that sensation with 422 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: music by itself. I paused your episode on Freeze on 423 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,919 Speaker 1: midway to test myself to be sure, and pulled up 424 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 1: my go to emotional peace Jupiter from Holsts Planets, and 425 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: I wasn't familiar with this before, so I had to 426 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: look it up. So this is also known as Jupiter, 427 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: Bringer of Jollity by the English composer Gustav Holst, which 428 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 1: I think it was composed sometime in the early twentieth century, 429 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 1: maybe the nineteen teens or so, but it's from his 430 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: orchestral suite known as the Planets. There are seven entries 431 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,160 Speaker 1: in this, uh so, wait a minute, seven but the Planets, well, 432 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: he did not do one for Earth and he actually 433 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: died before Pluto was discovered, so it's just all the 434 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: planets without Earth or Pluto, depending on what it would 435 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: have been a planet when when first discovered, well, Earth 436 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 1: already had enough music right now, Holst the planets they 437 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 1: had these are these are great great works. I remember 438 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: I had these. I had had some performances of of 439 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: these these pieces on CD back when I was like 440 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: in junior high or something. I for some reason, you know, 441 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: I picked up a couple of classical pieces and this 442 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: one had the planetary theme, so it seems a little 443 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 1: bit sci fi. So I ended up getting it, and um, yeah, yeah, 444 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 1: it's good stuff. I realized when I was checking these 445 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: out that I had heard say, the theme from Mars before. 446 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,120 Speaker 1: That's uh. I think it's been in some movies. It's 447 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: you would probably recognize that maybe we can include a 448 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: little snippet very Imperial March. In fact, I think this 449 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: is often cited as having inspired the score to Star 450 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: Wars Um. But the one from Jupiter I was also 451 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: listening to, and uh naa, I gotta say, Jupiter, Bringer 452 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: of jollity. Uh there was a part in it where 453 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 1: I definitely got frees on something like it's a little 454 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: bit less than three minutes into the version of Jupiter 455 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 1: that I was listening to when beforehand there's been a 456 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: lot of sort of dizziness and and sort of tinkling 457 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: and different stuff going on, but it suddenly resolves into 458 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: this strong, unified melody and uh and very powerful emotional 459 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: body response for me. Which Jupiter is the Jupiter of jollity? Oh, 460 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: Jupiter Julius, I don't know, but anyway, so that was 461 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 1: my reaction. But but Renata rights, um, yeah, I paused 462 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: your episode on frees On midway to test myself to 463 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 1: be sure, pulled up my go to emotional piece Jupiter 464 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: from Hosts Planets. It hits all the marks you outline 465 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: in the episode about a moving, triumphant but emotionally ambiguous, 466 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 1: sudden transition and music. I'd love it if you listen 467 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: and let me know if it triggers frees On and you. 468 00:26:49,280 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: The part that really gets me is at about three minutes. Yes, 469 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: that is exactly the part that really got me, so 470 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 1: uh so right on right there. Um, But Renada says 471 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: on cue, when I listened to it this time, it 472 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: made tears stream down my face. It inspires intense drug 473 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: like feelings, and I immediately want to listen to it 474 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 1: again as far as the study about visualization, it triggers 475 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: distinct images of harrowing space travel for me, even though 476 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: Holst composed the planet Sweet decades before space travel. Jupiter 477 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 1: in particular nails the hopeful, terrifying glory you imagine astronauts feel. 478 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: I looked at my arm and saw no goose bumps. 479 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 1: I would describe the feeling from Jupiter and other music 480 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: as more like that feeling you get when you slip 481 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: into a hot tub and get a sudden rush of 482 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: danger followed swiftly by intense release. Well, that's interesting, nat, 483 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: I would say, if you know, if you're having tears 484 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: and you're having feelings of warmth going through the body, 485 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: that seems like it would at least have some sort 486 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: of overlap with free on. Uh though you're you're just 487 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,880 Speaker 1: not experiencing the feeling of chills or goose bumps, which 488 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: are two of the commonly reported elements of frees on, 489 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: but not necessarily there for everybody. So I would say 490 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 1: maybe that your experience still counts as some form of 491 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: frees on. It just seems like a variation that's maybe 492 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: not like the majority of people. M hm. Now, first 493 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: of all, I have to stress that I have not 494 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 1: had the chance to listen to this episode yet. Um 495 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,439 Speaker 1: I got back from my travels and if I think 496 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: I've just been going NonStop with other stuff. But but 497 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: I wonder if if if you guys got into this 498 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: or or based on this listener mail, what you think 499 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: about about this, Like the idea of comparing it to 500 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: um to a drug. It makes me think about various 501 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: pieces of music that in the past have had that 502 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: effect on me and then they lost that ability to 503 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,479 Speaker 1: affect me. So perhaps through over use of the music 504 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 1: or um, you know, changing attitudes towards the music. Like 505 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: the one that comes to mind most readily is karl 506 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: or Carmina Burana, which is a wonderful work. I'm not 507 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: taking anything away from it, but there was a time 508 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: when I was in college and I where where I 509 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: was first turned onto this, where you know, it was 510 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: so new to me, and I probably listened to it 511 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: a little too much and then subsequently, like I've observed it, 512 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: you know, and heard it overused in the media. You know, 513 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: you see it, you see it popping up, uh sort 514 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: of go to um, you know, emotionally stirring music. And 515 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: so I don't have the same relationship with the piece 516 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: that I once did. Though I still I still love it, 517 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: I still recognize it as being great, but I don't 518 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: I don't think it would have the same chilling effect 519 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: on me today. Yeah, when a great piece of music 520 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: gets used in a commercial, that really kind of kills it. Yeah, 521 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: But luckily, um, Carmena Barana is a very long piece. 522 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: It has some sections that haven't been picked over by 523 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: by by the media as much, so there's still a 524 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: lot to to love in there. And of course he 525 00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: has some other works as well well. That is interesting. 526 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: I mean, we certainly talked about the dopaminergic reward pathways 527 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: in the brain and how uh certain experiences with music 528 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 1: do seem to stimulate activity in those reward pathways, similar 529 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: to how you would get stimulation of the reward pathways 530 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: with any kind of um stimulus that the brain is 531 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: going to encourage you to try to repeat your exposure to. UH. 532 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: So this is what happens with all kinds of things 533 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: with uh, with food, with sex, with drugs, with money, um, 534 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: you know the and that is one of the primary 535 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: functions of dopamine in the brain is to seemingly stimulate 536 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: awareness of and motivation to acquire and re acquire these 537 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: these stimuli or goals over and over again. And I 538 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: think music can be like that. But yeah, one thing 539 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: you might notice about lots of these other things is 540 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: that if you just keep repeating the experience that you're 541 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: getting that reward motivation to experience over and over again, 542 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 1: it does have diminishing returns. In fact, this is often 543 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: described as something that people experience with drug addiction, right 544 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: that you know that the subsequent times of trying the 545 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: drug are never as good as the first time, and 546 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: people are constantly chasing after the experience of how good 547 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: it felt the first time they were doing it, but 548 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: of course that can't happen again, so they just keep 549 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: trying more and more. I find that this results in 550 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: two strategies. For me. If there's a piece of music 551 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,360 Speaker 1: or an album that I just truly love, you know, 552 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 1: one of those where it's like, you know, top ten 553 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: albums of all time, I'm more inclined to sort of 554 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: really to be aware that I might be listening to 555 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: it too too much, or limit my exposure to the 556 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: piece because I want to continue to treasure it, Like 557 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: I know this is going to happen. But then there 558 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: are other tracks, especially if it's like a I don't know, 559 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: if it's like a really popular track that maybe I'm 560 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: not like a really hardcore fan of the the artist. Um, 561 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: then I'll just say, well, the heck with it. Yeah 562 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: this is feeling good. I'm just gonna put it on 563 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 1: repeat until I feel nothing anymore, you know, like I will. 564 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: I will put on X Gonna give It to You 565 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 1: until until I don't feel anything anymore, because I'll ultimately 566 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: I'm not as invested in that piece, Like it's okay 567 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: if that if I completely you know where the treads 568 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: off of that track. Oh well, it's funny because it 569 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: can kind of come around full circle. X Gonna give 570 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: It to You would be so first year grooving with it, 571 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: and then it becomes really funny. And then after it's 572 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: been really funny, you start thinking like this is a 573 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: great song. Yeah, I shouldn't give up. I'm too strong. 574 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: Yeah you you really sort of end up leaning into it. 575 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 1: Uh so, yeah, you there's a there's a whole journey 576 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: that takes place with obsessive listening of any song. Yeah. Yeah. Now. 577 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 1: Nada also has a part in her message about the 578 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: experience of a s MR, which a Seth and I 579 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: alluded to. It seems possibly in some way sort of 580 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: related or might have some overlaps with Free Song, but 581 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 1: it also seems like a different thing. So we're not 582 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: going to get into that here. But but thanks for 583 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 1: sharing all this or not. Oh and we'nada says in 584 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: the end. In any case, enjoy your show even though 585 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: it doesn't give me chills. Cheers. We've got to work 586 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: on chills. Um. Yeah, that that was That was great. 587 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: I really need to go back and listen to that 588 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: episode because uh yeah, I'd love to hear what you 589 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: and Seth had to had to say and to explore 590 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: about this topic. All Right, we have some weird House 591 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: cinema centric listener mail here. This one comes to us 592 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: from brad Burn. Hello, Joe, Robert and Seth. An enthusiastic 593 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: listener for many years now, I have more recently been 594 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 1: enjoying Weird House and Artifact episodes very much. I had 595 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: never heard of the movie Metal Storm The Destruction of 596 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 1: Jared Sin before, and was indeed laughing out loud at 597 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: the trailer. The topic of eighties three D movies brought 598 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: out an intense sense memory of being taken to the 599 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: movies by my I can only imagine suffering mother to 600 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: experience Star Chaser and the Legend of Oran in mind 601 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: blowing red blue three D, chock full of Oregon harvesting, 602 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 1: cyborg mutants, space battle lay or stabs quote unquote, sexy 603 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: robot misogyny, swords made of light and spirit, and cookie 604 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: cutter heroes. Journey type movie. What more could you want? 605 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 1: I've read about this movie as a notorious Star Wars 606 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 1: rip off. That is awful. Also, you've mentioned in passing 607 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 1: the movie horror Vision a few times now, and it 608 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 1: makes me smile every time, as I have the possibly 609 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: uh ignominous distinction of having been in a Canadian electronic 610 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: industrial band whose song was featured in the dreamy desert 611 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 1: driving scene in that movie. Stay safe and keep up 612 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,720 Speaker 1: the great work, Bragber. Wait have we mentioned horror Vision? 613 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: I thought we were we talking about Terror Vision. We 614 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,720 Speaker 1: were talking about Terror Vision, which I don't think has 615 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: a desert driving scene. Um, though it wouldn't be completely 616 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: out of keeping with it. But yeah, I think we 617 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 1: have our movies crossed here. Um, But I'm still excited 618 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: about this. I have okay anytime we can hear from 619 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: from a listener who was ever in a Canadian electronic 620 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 1: industrial band. I'm excited and I really want to know 621 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: to pull the threads on this and see where it 622 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: takes us. But yeah, I'm not familiar with the movie 623 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 1: horror Vision. I think this is a two thousand one movie, 624 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:23,760 Speaker 1: so it's it's still within the like the realm of 625 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 1: films that we sometimes find quite interesting. Is horror Vision 626 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,879 Speaker 1: straight out of band camp? No, I don't think it is. Well, 627 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: you know, let's just take a look at it real quick. 628 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: Let's pull up to the details here. Yeah, I don't 629 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,439 Speaker 1: know that I'm familiar with anybody involved in this. Let's 630 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 1: see who produced it. Let's see if it was Charles Band. Um, 631 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: oh my god, it is Charles Band. How could I 632 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,839 Speaker 1: doubt it? Yes, Charles Band was executive producer on this 633 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: movie Baby, Full Moon, Fright Night. Yeah, all right, I 634 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,720 Speaker 1: stand corrected. This is straight out of band camp. Maybe 635 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: Bradburn is wrong. Maybe Bradburn's music was in terror Vision, 636 00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,240 Speaker 1: that horror Vision. If that were the case, I wouldn't 637 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: blame you. Yeah, well, so you'll just have to write 638 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: back in brad burnon and set the record straight and 639 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 1: tell us what the name of the band was. Now. 640 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 1: I wonder if the differences between terror vision and horror 641 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 1: vision as films track with the horror literary theory on 642 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: the distinction between these two concepts in fiction, Like, you know, 643 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: horror versus terror, what's the difference that horror is the 644 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,760 Speaker 1: emotion you feel when you see the thing you dread, 645 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 1: and terror is the emotion you feel leading up to 646 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 1: that experience? Is the dread you feel before you see it? Well, 647 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 1: given that, I don't think terror vision really leans into 648 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: this distinction very much. I doubt horror vision does either, 649 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:40,839 Speaker 1: but it would be it would be interesting to see. 650 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 1: I'm more of a terror guy myself. Um, all right, 651 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: you know this next bit is is this not all? 652 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 1: This is not a listener mail bit, but I've been 653 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,879 Speaker 1: meaning to mention this on an episode. If you listen 654 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,799 Speaker 1: to our discussions of the bicameral mind a while back, 655 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 1: or perhaps some of our episodes on the dealt with Neanderthal, 656 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 1: you might have heard me mention writer Karence Hawkins. I 657 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: think this also came up in some past listener I mean, 658 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 1: I'm sorry summer reading episodes. Uh, specifically, he wrote a 659 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:15,760 Speaker 1: book titled The Rage of Achilles that is the portion 660 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: of the Iliad retold leaning into Julian jaynes Um hypothesis 661 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: of the bicameral mind. I really enjoyed it when it 662 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 1: when it came out, and I also really enjoyed his 663 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 1: other book, his other novel, American Neolithic And anyway, I 664 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:34,919 Speaker 1: just wanted to let everybody know that he has revised 665 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: editions of both novels out now, as well as a 666 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 1: book of short stories titled Turing's Graveyard. I haven't had 667 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 1: a chance to read that story collection yet, but it's 668 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 1: on my bedside table, uh, with the other various books. Uh, 669 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 1: so you can find these wherever you get your books. 670 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 1: More Terror, More horror Um, The Rage of Achilles. Yeah, 671 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,919 Speaker 1: I guess that's more terror, right, Terror is what terror 672 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 1: is my my? Yeah? Terror terror for sure, right. Phobos 673 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: and Demos, yeah, Dread and Route Yeah, definitely definitely some 674 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 1: terror going on outside the walls of Troy. All right, Well, 675 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: if there's nothing else here, I guess we'll close up 676 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: the mail bag for today. Uh, we will be back. 677 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: We'll probably have even more listener mail to touch on 678 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,279 Speaker 1: them because we're recording this one I think like an 679 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,920 Speaker 1: extra week out, so um the great um nets that 680 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,560 Speaker 1: gather the listener mail haven't had as much time to 681 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: accumulate on this particular episode, but we look forward to 682 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,800 Speaker 1: reading your thoughts your listener mail related to other listener 683 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,360 Speaker 1: mails related to episodes that we've put out of Stuff 684 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,879 Speaker 1: to Blow Your minds, episodes of Weird House Cinema. It's 685 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 1: all fair game and in the meantime, if you want 686 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 1: to listen to other episodes of our show, while you 687 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:51,880 Speaker 1: can find it all and the Stuff to Blow your 688 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: Mind podcast feed core episodes of Stuff to Blow Your 689 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: Mind on Tuesdays and Thursday's Weird House, on Friday's Wednesdays 690 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 1: we bust out the Artifact, and on Monday's That's a 691 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: listener Mail. Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio 692 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get 693 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: in touch with us with feedback on this episode or 694 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 1: any other to suggest topic for the future, just to 695 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,360 Speaker 1: say hi, you can email us at contact at stuff 696 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:22,359 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your 697 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,799 Speaker 1: Mind is a production of I Heart Radio. For more 698 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio 699 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 1: app Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.