Speaker 1: Coaching is not about having power over other people and
Speaker 1: being directive or advisory. It's really about creating more of
Speaker 1: a sense of equality, right, and so asking questions and
Speaker 1: listening and sort of making the space equal among people
Speaker 1: so that everyone participates.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast Today. I'm happy
Speaker 2: to welcome Jeffrey Hole to the show. Jeffrey is a
Speaker 2: highly solid after facilitator, keynote speaker, and executive coach to
Speaker 2: both nonprofit and for profit global organizations.
Speaker 3: He is the.
Speaker 4: Executive director of the Institute of Coaching based at McLean Hospital.
Speaker 4: Jeffrey is also a clinical instructor in psychology at Harvard
Speaker 4: Medical School and an adject professor of Leadership at New
Speaker 4: York University. His latest book is called Flex, The Art
Speaker 4: and Science of Leadership in a Changing World. In this episode,
Speaker 4: I talked to Jeffrey Hole about the new landscape of leadership.
Speaker 4: The world is changing and alpha leadership is not the
Speaker 4: only way to manage a team. Jeffrey highlights importance of
Speaker 4: beta leadershi, a style that values emotion and collaboration. According
Speaker 4: to Jeffrey, the most effective leaders know which style to
Speaker 4: lead with depending on the situation. In addition to learning
Speaker 4: other ways of being, Jeffrey believes we need deleverage perspectives
Speaker 4: from the indigenous and neurodiverse communities. We also touch on
Speaker 4: the topics of emotional intelligence, coaching, creativity, and authenticity. This
Speaker 4: is a really great chat with my friend.
Speaker 5: Who is really leading the way in the coaching world.
Speaker 5: He is very sensitive, compassionate, and very forward looking. So
Speaker 5: without further ado, I'm pleased to bring you Jeffrey Hold.
Speaker 5: Jeffrey Hold, so great to finally get you on the
Speaker 5: psychology podcast.
Speaker 1: That's been It's fun to finally be here.
Speaker 5: Oh man, We've been trying to get you on for
Speaker 5: a while. You're a legend in the coaching field, and
Speaker 5: I know I have so much to learn from you today,
Speaker 5: as I'm sure a lot of people have a lot
Speaker 5: to learn from you today. How are you doing.
Speaker 1: I'm doing well, thank you. I am happily home in Amsterdam,
Speaker 1: just got back from India over the jet lag and
Speaker 1: settling back at home for a few days, which is
Speaker 1: kind of nice.
Speaker 5: How about you, Yeah, I'm you know, I'm doing pretty good.
Speaker 5: I'm doing pretty good. Jeffrey. Okay, you know, where do
Speaker 5: we begin with this kind of conversation. I like to
Speaker 5: begin with the concept of the beta boss. Now that
Speaker 5: doesn't sound hot, but you're telling me, no, it is.
Speaker 3: I need to rethink this. It is good. This is
Speaker 3: a good thing.
Speaker 1: I am. That's true.
Speaker 5: Talk to me, tell me about your reconceptualization of leadership.
Speaker 1: Well, I think that the traditional sort of authoritative leader
Speaker 1: that fits the patriarchal mold that we all kind of
Speaker 1: grew up with in the West, it's still alive and well,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, there's still top down leadership, there's
Speaker 1: still hierarchies, there's still very directive bosses out there. They
Speaker 1: have not been replaced completely. But there's quite a few
Speaker 1: things that have changed over the last few years. And
Speaker 1: I think there's a confluence of a couple of major shifts.
Speaker 1: One is that the senior ranks of many organizations, especially
Speaker 1: global organizations, are much more diverse than they had been until,
Speaker 1: you know, a decade ago or so. There's more women,
Speaker 1: there's more people of color, there's more people from all
Speaker 1: different kinds of cultures all over the world that are
Speaker 1: part of the global leadership teams of many organizations. So
Speaker 1: that is a major change that's taking place over time,
Speaker 1: and it continues to diversify, which is a good thing.
Speaker 1: And then secondly, in confluence with that, is this desire
Speaker 1: for most organizations to be much more nimble, much more agile,
Speaker 1: much more creative. We have a highly disrupted world these days,
Speaker 1: with technologies and economic disruptions, and you know, we could
Speaker 1: talk about all the different disruptions, not even mentioning a
Speaker 1: pandemic of course, which shifted things for everyone in the world.
Speaker 1: So you know, the world is that much more complex
Speaker 1: and the need for creativity and innovation is that much greater.
Speaker 1: So having a one stop or one's you know, one
Speaker 1: trick pony approach to leadership is no longer going to
Speaker 1: be as effective as what is needed in today's world.
Speaker 1: And I think you know where I started doing research
Speaker 1: in this space as a coach is recognizing that over
Speaker 1: the last five to ten years, my clients were changing
Speaker 1: and they didn't necessarily want to be coached on how
Speaker 1: to be bossy, or how to be authoritative, or how
Speaker 1: to be directive, or how to be alpha as you
Speaker 1: might call it. So that started me thinking about what
Speaker 1: are the other ways of being as a leader. And
Speaker 1: the emergent theme I call beta is really about building
Speaker 1: an environment where you hear that you get the best
Speaker 1: out of everyone. You really try to elevate the performance,
Speaker 1: the creativity, and the capability of everyone on the team.
Speaker 1: And that requires a leadership style that's more flexible that
Speaker 1: maybe directive may be authoritative at times, but also needs
Speaker 1: to be consensus oriented, needs to be collaborative, needs to
Speaker 1: be inquisitive, needs to be a good listener, It needs
Speaker 1: to be empathic, and empathy is key, and so developing
Speaker 1: this much more diversified portfolio of capacities and capabilities is
Speaker 1: really key to success. So I don't think it's either
Speaker 1: a it's not beta or alpha. It's, in my world,
Speaker 1: a development of a flexible portfolio so that leaders can
Speaker 1: actually choose what's appropriate in the moment or in the
Speaker 1: situation that we'll get the best out of everyone.
Speaker 5: I love that about your approach. So there's definitely a
Speaker 5: place for assertiveness and for making decisions when everyone else
Speaker 5: is like undecisive, you know, or indecisive in this sensive Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: I just made up a word, but you know, so
Speaker 5: there's definitely a place for that. But if that's all
Speaker 5: you are and you don't listen and you're not flexible,
Speaker 5: you know, if you're not affiliate affiliative at all, if
Speaker 5: you're not a team player, that will come to bite
Speaker 5: you in the butt right.
Speaker 1: Well, not only that, but if you're part of a
Speaker 1: leadership training program, for example, of high potentials, which a
Speaker 1: lot of companies at least used to have and many
Speaker 1: still do.
Speaker 3: You know, the.
Speaker 1: Way that they were training leaders was to be all
Speaker 1: of that kind of alpha energy, you know, directive visionary,
Speaker 1: know where you wanted to go, have your goals in mind,
Speaker 1: motivate the troops. You know, it was kind of almost
Speaker 1: militaristic historically. Well, the problem with that is twofold number one.
Speaker 1: It's going to attract a particular type of leader, and
Speaker 1: so that limits the kinds of people that are going
Speaker 1: to get identified to take leadership roles because introverts are
Speaker 1: not going to get chosen. People that are naturally more
Speaker 1: beta are not going to get chosen. So that's one issue.
Speaker 1: And then secondly, what happens when you want to create
Speaker 1: an environment where where your goal is creative brainstorming, getting
Speaker 1: new ideas, new ways of operating. You're not going to
Speaker 1: get that from a top down, directive approach because you
Speaker 1: can't you know this because you know we've read your
Speaker 1: book and self actualization, this is a key theme. You
Speaker 1: cannot direct creativity. It doesn't come from being told what
Speaker 1: to do. It's like you will go into the shower
Speaker 1: and when you come out of the shower you will
Speaker 1: have great new ideas.
Speaker 5: Well.
Speaker 3: I wish it were that.
Speaker 1: Simple, right, You know, creativity and innovation comes from from
Speaker 1: a different part of the brain. It comes from a
Speaker 1: different experience. It comes from being in nature. It comes
Speaker 1: from a fluid, more relaxed space for the so your
Speaker 1: brain is more mindful, more present. And if you're trying
Speaker 1: to get that level of creativity out of your people
Speaker 1: in an organization and you're a top down sort of
Speaker 1: bossy boss, it's going to backfire. It's the bottom line.
Speaker 1: And like you said, there are times like at the
Speaker 1: beginning of the pandemic when people were panicking and they
Speaker 1: were like, oh my god, what are we going to
Speaker 1: do and how are we going to get work done
Speaker 1: in this crazy environment? There was a need for some
Speaker 1: very strong directive. You will be okay, we'll go hybrid,
Speaker 1: people will work at home, we'll figure it out. You know,
Speaker 1: those kinds of authoritative leadership styles are useful especially in
Speaker 1: an emergency. But it's no longer going to be appropriate,
Speaker 1: and it's no longer going to elevate all the key
Speaker 1: talent that you have to ask everyone to be that
Speaker 1: kind of leader.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that's that's a real theme of this
Speaker 5: whole your whole research project is diversity in a very
Speaker 5: very broad sense of the term. I feel like you're
Speaker 5: trying to look at it from like every possible perspective.
Speaker 5: I know that you also care deeply about the indigenous perspective,
Speaker 5: something that you don't see that often in coaching discussions.
Speaker 5: And then you're also interested in neurodiver which I am
Speaker 5: very interested in as well. I wotted you very loudly
Speaker 5: at the recent Better Up conference when you were talking
Speaker 5: about that on the panel.
Speaker 3: I was like, whooping you. I was like, whoa, yeah,
Speaker 3: yeah that was me. That was me. Yeah. So I
Speaker 3: love that.
Speaker 5: I love that really really broad approach. Real diversity, to
Speaker 5: me is is one that is really inclusive of all
Speaker 5: different ways of being, but doesn't mock even maybe standard
Speaker 5: ways of being you might even call patriarchal.
Speaker 3: I don't use that word. It's funny.
Speaker 5: We think we may differ on that. I think you're
Speaker 5: more woke than me, Jeffrey, to be honest, to be honest,
Speaker 5: but you know, I wouldn't use that word because I
Speaker 5: guess real and I just want to get your thoughts
Speaker 5: on this. It just seems like, you know, like real
Speaker 5: inclusivity is one where we have more of a spirit
Speaker 5: of like everyone's welcome to the table, not like everyone
Speaker 5: but white men, you know, like everyone, but there's no
Speaker 5: everyone but the alpha. You know, now the alpha is excluded.
Speaker 5: You know, I just I don't like that spirit. I
Speaker 5: want the Alpha. I do neither people with everyone else.
Speaker 5: You know, there's room for the alpha, you know, oh.
Speaker 1: Not only room, there's a need, yeah for it. Absolutely no,
Speaker 1: I totally agree with you.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I don't think we're disagreeing all here.
Speaker 5: I think we're saying, like, real inclusivity is one where
Speaker 5: we just have this really welcoming spirit of kind of
Speaker 5: like everyone's welcome at the table, and historically disadvantaged or
Speaker 5: historically excluded people are very welcome and we need to
Speaker 5: open up opportunities for them.
Speaker 3: And so I totally get that totally. I do totally
Speaker 3: get that point.
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Speaker 5: I look forward to welcoming you in December. You cover
Speaker 5: a whole wide range of different skills that are important
Speaker 5: in this unpredictable environment that we live in today, the mental,
Speaker 5: the emotional, and the somatic. Would you mind if we
Speaker 5: went through this we went through them, and we could
Speaker 5: start with the mental and why those skills are important?
Speaker 3: Great?
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, Okay, So flexibility and intentionality are within the
Speaker 5: mental sphere. Can you talk a little bit more about Yeah,
Speaker 5: what are they? Why are they important?
Speaker 1: Well, I think you know, when you're thinking about coaching,
Speaker 1: I'm always kind of coming at this from how to coach,
Speaker 1: because that's what I do as a psychologist and as
Speaker 1: an executive coach, and of my work is trying to
Speaker 1: coach and support leaders to develop their full capacity, their
Speaker 1: full potential, which is why I love your work because
Speaker 1: it's also about that same kind of continuing learning journey
Speaker 1: right expansion and around the themes of decision making and
Speaker 1: intentional communication. There's a whole spectrum, you know, when you're
Speaker 1: thinking about what we would call like a traditional authoritative
Speaker 1: or alpha approach, it would be very rational, it would
Speaker 1: be very data driven, it would be very directive, it
Speaker 1: would be very goal oriented, and all of that, as
Speaker 1: we just spoke to, is absolutely appropriate under certain circumstances
Speaker 1: where you want to set a marker for where you
Speaker 1: want to go to in the future, what you want
Speaker 1: to accomplish, having a clear vision, having a strategy, all
Speaker 1: of which is absolutely appropriate. But there's a spectrum that
Speaker 1: includes a whole other, more diverse approach, or an expansive
Speaker 1: approach that I call the beta side of things, which
Speaker 1: is really more positive curiosity, slowing down and really listening
Speaker 1: into the space of hearing all the voices in the room.
Speaker 1: Because sometimes you're mavericks, you're more creative. People tend to
Speaker 1: be maybe introverts, they're not quite so quick to speak
Speaker 1: up against authority or in the face of authority. So
Speaker 1: that is where the decision making process can be more
Speaker 1: collaborative and more consensus oriented. And same thing with your
Speaker 1: communication style. If you're purely rational and data driven, then
Speaker 1: at some point you're going to kind of lose your
Speaker 1: audience because you're not going to be very inspirational. You know,
Speaker 1: people want to know why, what is the purpose, what
Speaker 1: are we driving towards, and what's the goal, what is
Speaker 1: the reason why we're doing it, what's the value? And
Speaker 1: so that requires a storyteller, someone who can share their
Speaker 1: personal perspective and why it's really valuable for us to
Speaker 1: do X, Y and z, and maybe be able to
Speaker 1: tell a story or a metaphor. So those are the
Speaker 1: kinds of more flexible style of communication, which is really aspirational,
Speaker 1: you know, sharing why we're doing what we're doing. And
Speaker 1: again it's not an either or proposition, it's really almost
Speaker 1: like expanding the instrument as a leader.
Speaker 5: Yeah, the flexibility part does that from a neuroscience perspective,
Speaker 5: kind of relates to certain executive functions of the brain,
Speaker 5: like the dorsalato prefront the cortex, and I mean and
Speaker 5: training those areas to be intentionally flexible. Is that Do
Speaker 5: you ever link that to neuroscience?
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, especially when I get when when you get
Speaker 1: into the emotional intelligence part of it.
Speaker 3: Right, Oh, yeah, we'll get there.
Speaker 1: So that part of it probably even more than the uh,
Speaker 1: you know, rational decision making piece, which is an executive function.
Speaker 1: But I think of the intersection between what Richard boyatsis
Speaker 1: for example, would call the default network, the task oriented
Speaker 1: network in our brain, versus the being network in our brains.
Speaker 1: And you know, if you want to create an environment
Speaker 1: where you have more creativity, people are more relaxed, a
Speaker 1: little bit more mindful than the you know, you have
Speaker 1: to create a safe space where people feel they're able
Speaker 1: to be calm, they can regulate their feelings and not
Speaker 1: feel like it's an intense decision making rational experience. And
Speaker 1: that again requires a certain flexibility in a leader to
Speaker 1: know how to basically regulate their own emotions, but also
Speaker 1: to create a space for others to be expressed, to
Speaker 1: be able to feel safe enough to disagree or come
Speaker 1: up with a creative way of approaching things. So in
Speaker 1: the emotional regulation or the emotional intelligence space. It's really
Speaker 1: crucial for leaders to have this more diverse or more
Speaker 1: expansive approach that we're talking about.
Speaker 5: Well, I want I want you to be my leader, Jeffrey.
Speaker 5: You got the right idea. You got the right idea.
Speaker 1: And then you're gonna I know you're going to ask
Speaker 1: me about the somatic piece, right.
Speaker 3: Oh, well not there yet.
Speaker 5: Well, well, I'm going in order of the mentally emotional
Speaker 5: and the somatic. Okay, you haven't covered uh you know,
Speaker 5: well you started to touch an emotional intelligence a little bit,
Speaker 5: but that's a whole deep dive, you know, is so,
Speaker 5: and so let's let's do a little bit of a
Speaker 5: deep dive into emotional intelligence because this is I mean,
Speaker 5: the you're a world's expert on this, and particularly in
Speaker 5: the coaching realm, you know, applying it to the coaching
Speaker 5: is I think it's quite novel. You know, a lot
Speaker 5: of coaching programs are so doing oriented and and maybe
Speaker 5: and you would say, I'll you know, and so the
Speaker 5: idea of emotional intelligence, you know, it can be very alpha.
Speaker 5: You know, an alpha can can have it can use
Speaker 5: a little bit of emotional intelligence. Can you tell us
Speaker 5: a little bit about about how you define emotional intelligence.
Speaker 3: Do you take them out?
Speaker 5: Do you take the Salave Mayer Caruso model, do you
Speaker 5: like the Daniel Goleman model. There's so many different models
Speaker 5: of emotional intelligence, you know, do you adopt one or
Speaker 5: do you have your own? I'll shut up now and
Speaker 5: just want to listen to you.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think they all have value. You know,
Speaker 1: Dan Goleman basically popularized a lot of the work that
Speaker 1: Salavi and others had done in research a few years
Speaker 1: before that, and so I give him a lot of
Speaker 1: credit for bringing to the masses that framing. You know,
Speaker 1: self awareness, social awareness, emotional regulation, all of those kinds
Speaker 1: of things were you know, now they're part of our
Speaker 1: vernacular in the leadership space and in the coaching space,
Speaker 1: but they really weren't there twenty years ago. It was
Speaker 1: all IQ, it wasn't EQ. So you know, Dan and
Speaker 1: his colleagues, there's a number of them, Richard Biasis as
Speaker 1: I mentioned, and others that have brought that to the
Speaker 1: public sphere. I think have a real have added a
Speaker 1: lot of value. I personally am a big fan of
Speaker 1: the EQI two point zero emotional intelligence assessment, which I
Speaker 1: think goes back to Peter Sellaby and his colleagues originally.
Speaker 1: But what I love about it, and it's funny because
Speaker 1: I was just coaching someone today using it, and it
Speaker 1: was a physician, a very rational surgical surgeon, and you know,
Speaker 1: he took this emotional intelligence assessment and he was a
Speaker 1: little confused as to how it could be so complicated.
Speaker 1: And but what I shared with him, which I think
Speaker 1: he found valuable, was to break down the leadership activities
Speaker 1: that he's involved in leading a team right of nurses
Speaker 1: and technologists and anesthesiologists and all these other practitioners, all
Speaker 1: these other clinicians, and recognizing that in almost every single
Speaker 1: thing they do, there's an emotional component. You never completely
Speaker 1: escape the feelings in the room, the feelings of the
Speaker 1: people on the team, the feelings that you bring as
Speaker 1: the leader, whatever. So emotions are always at play. And
Speaker 1: what this assessment does is it breaks it down into
Speaker 1: multiple categories like self awareness, self expression, independence versus interdependence,
Speaker 1: a sense of social responsibility. One that you would like,
Speaker 1: which is self actualization. Whether you feel like what you're
Speaker 1: doing emotionally in your day to day world brings a
Speaker 1: sense of satisfaction and contribution. There's also stress related emotional intelligence.
Speaker 1: There's problem solving, like how do you solve problems when
Speaker 1: there's emotions in the space, and then things like self
Speaker 1: esteem and optimism. All of these are components. And what
Speaker 1: my client, who tends to be very rational obviously as
Speaker 1: a surgeon, loved about it was because he could actually divide.
Speaker 1: He could see how the emotional components are so key
Speaker 1: to all of these different activities as a leader, and
Speaker 1: so it made a whole lot more sense. For example,
Speaker 1: when we talked about problem solving, his initial reaction was, well,
Speaker 1: you solve your problems with rational thought, with data, with analysis,
Speaker 1: And I said, yeah, that's always true, but think about
Speaker 1: when you're interacting with a patient another human being, or
Speaker 1: when you're talking to your spouse or you know, you're
Speaker 1: making decisions in your life, is it really true that
Speaker 1: there's no emotional component? And he of course recognized, he
Speaker 1: was like, you're right. I'm like, I'm always trying to
Speaker 1: think about the especially with my patients, like how do
Speaker 1: they feel about the data that I'm sharing with them? So, yeah,
Speaker 1: problem solving is an emotional activity anyway, Just to summarize,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think there are ways that we can
Speaker 1: break down intelligence into very practical, useful domains that then
Speaker 1: can be coached and developed. And I left out probably
Speaker 1: one of the most important ones, which is empathy, right,
Speaker 1: developing your sensitivity to what's going on with other people.
Speaker 1: So those are just examples.
Speaker 5: Great examples. Well, how does realness come into play here?
Speaker 5: I think that's a fascinating angle that you bring into
Speaker 5: the emotional realm of life. What does that mean realness?
Speaker 1: Well, I used realness just as part of a euphemism
Speaker 1: for the acronym that I created in the model that
Speaker 1: I wrote about in my book called Fierce. So realness
Speaker 1: in that sense was just a quick term related to authenticity,
Speaker 1: which is a much bigger context, a much bigger concept
Speaker 1: construct Right. But what's interesting about this spectrum we talk
Speaker 1: about alpha versus beta in the space of authenticity is that,
Speaker 1: again on the more authoritative or alpha side, you have
Speaker 1: authenticity that's very competent and strong and stoic, and you
Speaker 1: want that quality and a lot of leaders at certain times.
Speaker 1: But then think about the other end of the spectrum,
Speaker 1: which is humility, vulnerability, relatability, and trust, and those are
Speaker 1: also key components of authenticity, but they require what we
Speaker 1: often think of as the softer side, right, And so
Speaker 1: the key to success is developing the entire spectrum and
Speaker 1: then being able to recognize when it's appropriate to be vulnerable,
Speaker 1: to share your humanity. And what I always find is
Speaker 1: interesting for clients, you know, when I'm working with executives,
Speaker 1: they sometimes struggle with this because they think that if
Speaker 1: they share vulnerability, or if they open their kimono and
Speaker 1: share transparency about their own fears or their own insecurities,
Speaker 1: that they will be viewed as being weak or less powerful.
Speaker 1: And the irony is the opposite is true. They'll be
Speaker 1: trusted even more, they'll be respected even more, they will
Speaker 1: be followed more willingly because their humanity is one of
Speaker 1: the core elements of their leadership capability. Right. People love
Speaker 1: to follow someone who's both strong but also human.
Speaker 3: M that's why I hit the gym. Get that strong part. No,
Speaker 3: I love it.
Speaker 5: I love it. So we got the mental the emotional. Basically, folks,
Speaker 5: what we're doing here is we're going through his fierce model.
Speaker 5: We've already covered, we've gotten into fire, and now we're
Speaker 5: going to.
Speaker 3: Go for the CE part.
Speaker 5: Okay, so let's talk about the somatic elements of your
Speaker 5: fire model. First of all, before we go into the
Speaker 5: specifics of collaboration and gay what does somatic mean? What
Speaker 5: does that mean?
Speaker 1: Well, the simple version is it's anything and everything that's physical, right,
Speaker 1: the physical energy. Somatics are the physicality of the beings
Speaker 1: of r of how we show up. And the reason
Speaker 1: it's so relevant in the space of collaboration and engagement
Speaker 1: is because the neuroscience studies and other research that's been
Speaker 1: done around the way human beings interact with each other
Speaker 1: is that a lot of what happens between people that
Speaker 1: creates a sense of trust, connection, relationship is based not
Speaker 1: on the words, not on verbal but on your physical presence,
Speaker 1: your nonverbals, your eye contact, your smile, which I don't
Speaker 1: do enough of. I think you know, all of those
Speaker 1: kinds of things. And even in zoom calls, you know,
Speaker 1: I coach my clients make sure they show their hands
Speaker 1: so that they don't look like they're just like from
Speaker 1: the neck up right. So it's all of those kinds
Speaker 1: of things that are really crucial to creating an environment
Speaker 1: of safety and connection and trust. And if you're alive,
Speaker 1: like in a room with people, then you want to
Speaker 1: pay attention to the energy of the space. And I
Speaker 1: always give a simple example, which is the difference between
Speaker 1: a long, rectangular power oriented table versus a circle. And
Speaker 1: when people sit in a circle, there's no automatic boss,
Speaker 1: there's no automatic leader, so people relax a little more,
Speaker 1: they feel like they're part of a community, Whereas if
Speaker 1: you're sitting at a boardroom, there's someone at the head
Speaker 1: of the table that automatically physically creates an energy of power.
Speaker 1: So that's just one example, but those are the kinds
Speaker 1: of things that leaders need to think about when they
Speaker 1: start to do to reflect on their somatic presence.
Speaker 5: Okay, so the two main components of that. Thank you
Speaker 5: for elaborating that. The two main components are collaboration and engagement.
Speaker 5: I think a lot of us can wrap our head
Speaker 5: around collaboration, but what is engagement?
Speaker 3: How is that relevant?
Speaker 1: Well, with engagement, I think what you're trying to focus
Speaker 1: in on here is the age old dichotomy of productivity
Speaker 1: versus creativity, because when you want to engage with your
Speaker 1: team as a leader in an organizational context, you often
Speaker 1: want to get both. And this is a bit of
Speaker 1: a double edged sword because productivity is very much management oriented,
Speaker 1: time oriented structure disciplines. You know, you have a perk
Speaker 1: chart you want to follow to get productivity, whereas creativity,
Speaker 1: as we mentioned earlier, requires a much more fluid space
Speaker 1: where people are more relaxed, they allow themselves to have
Speaker 1: daydreaming and kind of see what comes up. And the
Speaker 1: engagement space that creates one or the other. They're very different.
Speaker 1: They're very different. And I've worked with clients with leaders
Speaker 1: that tend to be leaning in one direction or the other.
Speaker 1: And I think I wrote a couple of case studies
Speaker 1: in the book of both examples where I had one
Speaker 1: leader who really wanted to have it. He had a
Speaker 1: very creative team that was in the media space, but
Speaker 1: his team never got any projects finished. They always came
Speaker 1: up with new ideas. They were constantly brainstorming, and it's
Speaker 1: because he was so flexible and fluid and created this
Speaker 1: wonderful creative environment. But then they didn't have enough discipline
Speaker 1: to get the work done. So he had to inject
Speaker 1: some alpha productivity approaches to his creative space and vice versa.
Speaker 1: You know, you have the highly productive, like get the
Speaker 1: work done kind of leader, and then he demands his
Speaker 1: team to be more creative and they all kind of
Speaker 1: look at him like, we're totally burnt out. You want creativity,
Speaker 1: we're exhausted.
Speaker 3: So anyway you get the idea, Yeah, I do, I do.
Speaker 5: And then collaboration. How can leaders foster better collaborative spirit?
Speaker 1: Well, the first thing it gets back to that topic
Speaker 1: of creating psychological safety, right, yeah, And the key, one
Speaker 1: of the keys there is creating an environment where people
Speaker 1: feel safe to speak up. You know, my friend, my
Speaker 1: friend and colleague Amy Edmondson at Harvard Business School when
Speaker 1: she started, you know, she's now the world renowned expert
Speaker 1: in that space. But she started that project many years
Speaker 1: ago by studying the operating rooms at mass General Hospital
Speaker 1: and what was the reason that some of them worked
Speaker 1: well and some of them didn't. And there were a
Speaker 1: lot of more mistakes in the operating room than was acceptable.
Speaker 1: And the fundamental key was whether or not people felt
Speaker 1: safe enough to speak up. And that had to do
Speaker 1: with the leadership style that was created in the environment.
Speaker 1: And so if you extrapolate that research that she did
Speaker 1: into other organizations where you want to create collaborative space,
Speaker 1: it starts with psychological safety and people having permission to
Speaker 1: say what they think and not feel like they're going
Speaker 1: to be chastised or criticized. And then I think the
Speaker 1: second component, and I spent some time on this in
Speaker 1: my book, is to have leaders recognize the difference between
Speaker 1: being an advisor and a delegator and a coach, and
Speaker 1: they need to do both. There are times when you
Speaker 1: need to delegate and advise and give direction, but if
Speaker 1: you want to create collaborative spaces, then you also need
Speaker 1: to coach. And coaching is not about having power over
Speaker 1: other people and being directive or advisory. It's really about
Speaker 1: creating more of a sense of equality, right, And so
Speaker 1: asking questions and listening and and sort of making the
Speaker 1: space equal among people so that everyone participates. And that's
Speaker 1: more creates a coaching dynamic. So those are some of
Speaker 1: the key elements of creating the collaborative energy.
Speaker 3: Mm I gotcha.
Speaker 5: The idea of coach, well, yeah, let's dive into coaching. Yeah,
Speaker 5: let's let's dive into that world is a good segue
Speaker 5: because something I really like a concept of your book
Speaker 5: is this notion of self coaching. You know, we can
Speaker 5: we can be our own leaders, our own best leaders
Speaker 5: as well, right, And I think that's a really cool,
Speaker 5: really cool way of thinking about life. You know, Karen Horney,
Speaker 5: the psychoanalyst called it, called it self analysis. You know,
Speaker 5: like like using psychoanalysis for yourself. But I think the
Speaker 5: new age, the newer version of it is self coaching.
Speaker 5: So what is self coaching?
Speaker 3: How can you be?
Speaker 5: How can you be your own leadership coach?
Speaker 1: Well, it's funny you would mention Karen Horney, because of
Speaker 1: course my training is originally from Carl Jung. I was
Speaker 1: a young and trained psychology just love it. And you know,
Speaker 1: his whole fundamental theme was individuation. Right, that life is
Speaker 1: a lifelong process of first developing an ego as a child,
Speaker 1: as an adolescent, as an early young adult, you develop
Speaker 1: your ego, which is giving you a sense of competency, capability,
Speaker 1: being able to operate in the world, right, And you
Speaker 1: get that mostly from your family, traditional parents, your family system,
Speaker 1: your school system. But at a certain point later in
Speaker 1: life that can become problematic because it becomes rigidified and
Speaker 1: you get sort of stuck in your personality, your belief
Speaker 1: that this is the way the world is, this is
Speaker 1: the way I am, and so young would always say,
Speaker 1: you know, part of your challenge in life is to
Speaker 1: get over your childhood right and to constantly be looking
Speaker 1: for opportunities to break through into what he called like
Speaker 1: a more permeable transcendent space. And I think that that
Speaker 1: it's it's interesting because that's from like twenty thirty forty
Speaker 1: years ago, but I think self coaching is very much
Speaker 1: along those same lines. It's recognizing that you're on a
Speaker 1: learning journey and that you know your personality is not
Speaker 1: a rigid it's not etched and stone. You know, studies
Speaker 1: have been done that brain is a great deal of
Speaker 1: brain plasticity, that we're constantly growing and changing. And so
Speaker 1: if you want to develop yourself, you think of yourself
Speaker 1: almost like a musical instrument, and you learn to see
Speaker 1: it as a lifelong expansion of your capacities, and you
Speaker 1: want to keep an open mind, and fundamentally to self coach,
Speaker 1: you want to create feedback loops. You know, where do
Speaker 1: you get feedback from your colleagues, from your partner, from
Speaker 1: your friends, from your employees. You know, are you willing
Speaker 1: and open to taking feedback from wherever it's offered, especially
Speaker 1: if it's done with the best of intentions, But you
Speaker 1: know that is that is a key element of self
Speaker 1: coaching is and my my colleague Marshall Goldsmith, who's you know,
Speaker 1: the number one coach in the world so to speak,
Speaker 1: you know, and he's a great human being.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: He developed this very simple form of self coaching which
Speaker 1: I mentioned in my book also, which is called feed forward,
Speaker 1: where you and I use it all the time. Where
Speaker 1: you literally whenever you do something, you give a presentation,
Speaker 1: or you put together a new paper, or you do
Speaker 1: something you know where you're producting presenting a product of
Speaker 1: some sort, and you just ask the people you respect,
Speaker 1: people that colleagues or the audience, you know, people then
Speaker 1: that you know that you respect their opinion, to give
Speaker 1: you you one specific thing that you could do even better.
Speaker 1: That's called feed forward. What would I if I do
Speaker 1: it again and I do it even better?
Speaker 3: What would you think I could do so good?
Speaker 1: Right? So it's just continuous learning basically, and being open
Speaker 1: to recognizing that you're never finished, you're always on an
Speaker 1: improvement process.
Speaker 3: Literally taking notes doing this interview.
Speaker 5: I don't normally do that in podcasters, and I'm like
Speaker 5: continuous learning and being it's so good, you're saying such
Speaker 5: good stuff. I actually met Marshall Goldsmith for the first
Speaker 5: time the other day at a Better Up Coaching after party,
Speaker 5: when Prince Harry was in the room, right, and we
Speaker 5: were all drinking, and I met him a little bit tipsy,
Speaker 5: and he think he was a little bit tipsy, and
Speaker 5: it was just he was, this is really funny. You know,
Speaker 5: he's just a you know, I assume he's like that sober,
Speaker 5: but just we were just really funny.
Speaker 3: He was just really funny. But anyway, I really like
Speaker 3: meeting Marshall Goldsmith. He's very great guy. Yeah.
Speaker 5: You know, you had this great panel at the Better
Speaker 5: Up conference and you were asked what do you see
Speaker 5: as some of the most important things for the future
Speaker 5: of coaching now? Most my listeners were not at that panel,
Speaker 5: So if you don't mind talking a little bit more
Speaker 5: about that, what you see as the most exciting areas
Speaker 5: of coaching for the twenty first century, especially the kind
Speaker 5: of the world we live in right now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, you're right. I was a really nice panel
Speaker 1: and the theme was the future of coaching, the future
Speaker 1: of human development? Where are we headed? What kind of
Speaker 1: research should we be doing? And I think what you're
Speaker 1: pointing to is that there were two or three key
Speaker 1: themes that came up not just from me, but from
Speaker 1: the other experts on the panel. One is that we
Speaker 1: have to become much more aware of the strengths and
Speaker 1: the potential liabilities of being very Western in our approach.
Speaker 1: That we now live in a global village. Were literally
Speaker 1: a global village.
Speaker 3: And I mean it.
Speaker 1: It's a small planet, right. And when I go to
Speaker 1: do coaching in other countries in China and India, which
Speaker 1: is one of the fastest growing democracies, and coaching is
Speaker 1: huge there. I was just there last week. You know,
Speaker 1: they don't always appreciate having a Western overlay to everything
Speaker 1: that's being taught. There's value because we bring a scientific approach.
Speaker 1: We bring thousands of years of Western civilization and knowledge,
Speaker 1: but there's also a lot to be gleaned from Eastern approaches,
Speaker 1: from indigenous approaches, from the wisdom traditions of indigenous tribes
Speaker 1: in South America, and the Aborigine Aboriginal tribal approaches. I
Speaker 1: read a book by Tyson Jung Komporda recently called Santok,
Speaker 1: which I highly recommend.
Speaker 3: That sounds great.
Speaker 1: You know, he's interweaving the West and the Eastern narratives
Speaker 1: and it's really powerful.
Speaker 3: Stuff.
Speaker 1: So that's one thing, as I think we need to
Speaker 1: become a little bit more permeable and broad in our
Speaker 1: perspective on human development and include some of these non
Speaker 1: Western approaches. So that's because we will all benefit from that,
Speaker 1: and for too long many of them have been marginalized.
Speaker 1: But there's a lot of wisdom there. So that's one area.
Speaker 1: And then the second one that I brought up that
Speaker 1: I think is also kind of emerging on the scene
Speaker 1: is how can we leverage people that have what we
Speaker 1: call neurodiversity, you know, that are bringing in a wide
Speaker 1: range of intellectual capacities that may not always look sort
Speaker 1: of mainstream. They may be and I'm always worried about labels,
Speaker 1: you know, people that are on the spectrum or autistic
Speaker 1: or have aspergers or whatever. You know, it's a little
Speaker 1: bit of a double edged sword because on the one hand,
Speaker 1: they need to have some recognition, and our psychology communities
Speaker 1: have a tendency to diagnose and then label. But it
Speaker 1: does bring those things into the conversation, which is probably
Speaker 1: a good thing. But I also want to be careful
Speaker 1: not to label people and then have them feel denigrated
Speaker 1: or judged because there's so much potential. There's so much brilliance,
Speaker 1: there's so much wisdom, there's so much creativity, and I
Speaker 1: did share that on the panel. I think that what
Speaker 1: is it, ten or fifteen years ago, we had the
Speaker 1: American Disabilities Act in the US and mainstreaming of people
Speaker 1: that had been left out of work, the work world,
Speaker 1: the education systems, all of which was really great. But
Speaker 1: now we need to go to the next level, and
Speaker 1: we need to not just allow people that are different
Speaker 1: into our mainstream systems. We need to leverage their talents
Speaker 1: and their capabilities. And so this is an opportunity for
Speaker 1: coaches because I've seen the power of where coaching can
Speaker 1: really bring to life someone who has perhaps a different
Speaker 1: way of seeing the world, and it's just powerful, and
Speaker 1: I'd like to see more of it. I'd like to see,
Speaker 1: you know, rather than giving a lot of pharmaceutical approaches
Speaker 1: to like ADHD and things like that, which may be
Speaker 1: appropriate under certain circumstances, yes, but I'd love to see
Speaker 1: more coaching, yes, and brought into those spaces of add ADHD, autism,
Speaker 1: all of those kinds of things. So neurodiversity is an
Speaker 1: area that I think is one that we could do
Speaker 1: better research and also equip our coaches to be more
Speaker 1: capable and comfortable.
Speaker 3: Oh, I completely agree.
Speaker 5: Well, obviously, obviously my whole career is a bit supporting
Speaker 5: the neurodiversity movement. But I got a LinkedIn message the
Speaker 5: other day from someone, a woman who is a neurodiversity coach,
Speaker 5: and I thought that was interesting because I never heard
Speaker 5: of that before as like a specific thing. And she
Speaker 5: reached out she liked my book Transcend, and I was like, wow,
Speaker 5: this is amazing what you're doing.
Speaker 3: I'd love to hear more. And we had a zoom call.
Speaker 5: And and she said, you know, she feels a little
Speaker 5: bit lonely in the coaching space. You know that there's
Speaker 5: not many who identify as neurodiversity coaches or who work
Speaker 5: with that specific population, and so there's just so much
Speaker 5: potential there in the coaching community, as you've astutely pointed out.
Speaker 5: So absolutely, Okay, what else about the do you want
Speaker 5: to keep going?
Speaker 3: We got, Well, you say.
Speaker 1: One more, I'll say one more thing about it, please do,
Speaker 1: and that is that there's a there is an intersection
Speaker 1: between the two themes that I brought up, the bringing
Speaker 1: in the indigenous wisdom traditions and neurodiversity because and I
Speaker 1: can give a reference. There's a wonderful woman that I
Speaker 1: had to do a webinar for us at the Institute
Speaker 1: of Coaching at Harvard on neurodiverse City and Community building.
Speaker 1: And her name is Lana Yelenev, and she's a Filipino,
Speaker 1: but she also comes from a indigenous tradition in the Philippines.
Speaker 1: And what she brought to us was this idea that
Speaker 1: in many indigenous traditions, if you look at African traditions,
Speaker 1: you look at North American Indian traditions, you look and
Speaker 1: I learned from her about the Filipino and digit I
Speaker 1: didn't even know there was such a thing. So even
Speaker 1: I was taking notes, in many of those indigenous traditions,
Speaker 1: people that are considered odd or unusual, or what we
Speaker 1: might call even retarded, which is a really inappropriate term,
Speaker 1: or disabled, right, those individuals are actually included in the
Speaker 1: community because they bring talents, they bring gifts, and so
Speaker 1: those indigenous communities actually ask the question, what is the
Speaker 1: gift that this individual needs to bring to our community?
Speaker 1: Why we have someone Yeah, it's like, why do we
Speaker 1: have someone who has this so called inability or disability?
Speaker 1: Or different ability in our community? What is there? What
Speaker 1: is their gift? And that is a wonderful way of
Speaker 1: reframing what in the West has led to almost a
Speaker 1: monochromatic approach to normalcy.
Speaker 3: Right, I agree.
Speaker 1: So anyway, there's there's this wonderful intersection between the wisdom
Speaker 1: traditions and some of this indigenous approaches and not just
Speaker 1: welcoming and respecting but literally leveraging neurodiverse individuals getting them
Speaker 1: to participate and actually be part of the creativity of
Speaker 1: that we need in the world.
Speaker 5: Well, it's beautiful and I mean it's it's also a
Speaker 5: very powerful coaching question. You know, what is the gift
Speaker 5: that you bring to the world? You know, it's just
Speaker 5: you know, that's from an individual coaching perspective as well,
Speaker 5: having a very you know, I'm a very strengths based
Speaker 5: oriented guy. What can I say? So I really resonate
Speaker 5: with that a lot. How far can we take this?
Speaker 5: Can we take this Tulso viewpoint? Diversity? That's a little
Speaker 5: bit more of a controversial topic. But you know, in
Speaker 5: politics right now, everyone's ripping their heads off. You know,
Speaker 5: if you disagree with my political viewpoint, you're dead to me.
Speaker 5: You know, it's as opposed to, like, I don't know, like,
Speaker 5: would it be cheeky to be like, let's say you're
Speaker 5: a Democrat and you're talking to a Republican, you know,
Speaker 5: asking the Republican, Oh, what are some of your gifts
Speaker 5: you can bring to the table with your unique perspective
Speaker 5: on the matters, you know, like as opposed to just
Speaker 5: immediately saying, oh, you're a Republican, get out of here,
Speaker 5: you know, or vice versa, you know, the Republican looking
Speaker 5: at a you know, a Democrat.
Speaker 3: I don't know. Can we further extend this powerful coaching
Speaker 3: question to viewpoint diversity as well, or is that destined
Speaker 3: for failure?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 1: I think it is. It's destined as you're pointing to,
Speaker 1: what is a great opportunity actually in the coaching space,
Speaker 1: because I think one of the fastest growing skill sets
Speaker 1: for coaches is group coaching and team coaching and facilitation,
Speaker 1: And if you really want to learn how to do that, well,
Speaker 1: then you're creating spaces for people to feel safe enough
Speaker 1: to share what their deepest fear might be, or their
Speaker 1: deepest aspiration might be, their deepest desire might be. And
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, what we often find
Speaker 1: when we have enough safety created in the listening space,
Speaker 1: is that as human beings, we all want the same thing, right,
Speaker 1: We're not really as far apart from each other as
Speaker 1: we think. I often go back to my political science
Speaker 1: classes where when they talked about the far right and
Speaker 1: the far left, and then you realize that the far
Speaker 1: right enough to go around and they end up being
Speaker 1: in the same players.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's great opportunity for coaches to be come good
Speaker 1: facilitators in this space to create dialogue because at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, what we're talking about is how
Speaker 1: can we have more dialogue rather than not what's the
Speaker 1: word for disagreement, right, dialogue instead of yes.
Speaker 5: That was actually next to my list to kind of
Speaker 5: end the interview with you saying we live in an
Speaker 5: age of convergence, and I was going to ask, how
Speaker 5: do you reconcile that with all of our talk about
Speaker 5: you know, diversity and indifference, But you just answered it.
Speaker 5: I mean, you just did it. Yeah, So we in
Speaker 5: a lot of ways, while it seems as though we're
Speaker 5: living in the age of discord and strife, you actually
Speaker 5: think we live in the age of convergence. And that's
Speaker 5: that's a very unique spin on the situation. Can you
Speaker 5: elaborate in that and kind of us end us here
Speaker 5: today on a positive hope for humanity?
Speaker 3: My friend.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll just say two things about that. One is
Speaker 1: that where I came out on the on what I
Speaker 1: call the Age of convergence is the recognition that all
Speaker 1: of these dichotomy ease that are embedded in our culture
Speaker 1: left brain, right brain, male, female, masculine, feminine. Oh god,
Speaker 1: you can go on and on. You know, computers are
Speaker 1: you know, bits and bytes right on and off system
Speaker 1: kind of in system one thinking and system two thinking,
Speaker 1: all of which is incredibly valuable on one level. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's also pointing to sort of a black and
Speaker 1: white mindset. And if we want to transcend that again,
Speaker 1: I'm so much of a Jungian. It's always about breaking
Speaker 1: through the ye you know, the splits, right. If we
Speaker 1: want to transcend it, we have to recognize that the
Speaker 1: only thing that keeps us from moving through the fluidity
Speaker 1: of those dichotomies and bringing them together is fear.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I go back to the Buddhists like Pema Children, who
Speaker 1: basically said is there's only two ways of being in
Speaker 1: the world fear and love. You're either in fear or
Speaker 1: you're in love ool, And that's matt In fact, maybe
Speaker 1: that's the one dichotomy that's worth having, is recognizing the
Speaker 1: difference between fear and love, because if you're in a
Speaker 1: dialogue and you're talking Republicans and Democrats and blue states
Speaker 1: and red states and all that, at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, the rankor the anger is really about fear.
Speaker 1: You know, we're afraid of each other. We're afraid we're
Speaker 1: going to get hurt. We're afraid that we're going to
Speaker 1: lose something, We're going to lose the Great American Dream
Speaker 1: or whatever it is. If we can shift our mindset,
Speaker 1: and this is where coaches can help, if we can
Speaker 1: shift our mindset to recognize that we're all the same,
Speaker 1: We're all human beings. We all want to feel safe,
Speaker 1: we all want love, and if we can love each
Speaker 1: other across the table, then that opens the energy to listen.
Speaker 1: And when we start listening to each other, we begin
Speaker 1: to realize that we're not really all that far apart.
Speaker 1: So that's my note of optimism, I guess, and maybe
Speaker 1: some people will say I'm doing the rose colored classes,
Speaker 1: but I am an optimist. What can I.
Speaker 5: Say, Well, what I would say is this, there is
Speaker 5: a really important place for you in this world. And
Speaker 5: your perspective. I'm saying, even if there are people listening
Speaker 5: and it's not their perspective and they're like more of
Speaker 5: like a dominant, you know, kind of personality, you can
Speaker 5: imagine a real a real you know, like dominant you know,
Speaker 5: like jacked up on testosterone listening to you and rolling
Speaker 5: their eyes. But but your perspective is incredibly valuable. And
Speaker 5: that's and I think that's what I want to highlight today.
Speaker 5: In this world. There's a great place for there's a
Speaker 5: great place in the coaching world to you know, it's
Speaker 5: almost wide open to the coaching world. We need to
Speaker 5: you know, we need to put this more in there,
Speaker 5: you know, emotional intelligence and all the things you talked
Speaker 5: about today. Seriously, thank you so much for I'm so
Speaker 5: glad we finally recorded this, and I'm so glad I
Speaker 5: can't wait to share this with our listeners.
Speaker 3: So thank you so much for all the great work
Speaker 3: you're doing.
Speaker 1: Jeffrey, Well, thank you for having me. It's ever since
Speaker 1: I read your book. I love all of the work
Speaker 1: that you did and upgrade, you know, and updating Abraham
Speaker 1: Maslow's work. And I love your sailboat metaphor. And you
Speaker 1: know a lot of the themes that you write about
Speaker 1: in terms of self actualization, they just resonate so powerfully
Speaker 1: with me that you know, maybe there'll be people out
Speaker 1: there that don't just disagree with us, but I think
Speaker 1: what we're trying to do is positive for the world,
Speaker 1: and I think your work also represents that in a
Speaker 1: really powerful way.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Thanks so much.
Speaker 5: I always get confused when someone disagrees with a humanistic
Speaker 5: perspective than this is really what we're presenting here, you know,
Speaker 5: but look, I just thank you so much. That means
Speaker 5: so much. And glad we recorded this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, me too. Look forward to seeing you again soon.
Speaker 5: Likewise, thanks for listening to this episode of The Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 5: If you'd like to react in some way to something
Speaker 5: you heard, I encourage you to join in the discussion
Speaker 5: at thus psychology podcast dot com. We're on our YouTube
Speaker 5: page thus Psychology Podcast. We also put up some videos
Speaker 5: of some episodes on our YouTube page as well, so
Speaker 5: you'll want to check that out. Thanks for being such
Speaker 5: a great supporter of the show. And tune in next
Speaker 5: time for more on the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.