1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: There are some bodies buried, so to speak, not actual ones, 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: but you know, there's a body buried in the Rise 3 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: of the NBA, and he was ruthless and he wielded 4 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 1: his power. So certainly a person who would have conceived 5 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: of this not a question. 6 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:16,959 Speaker 2: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry o'she. 7 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,240 Speaker 3: I served in the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, 8 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 3: living undercover all around the world. 9 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 4: And in my thirty three years with the CIA, I 10 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 4: served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. 11 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 3: Although we don't usually look at it this way, we 12 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 3: created conspiracies. 13 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 4: In our operations. We got people to believe things that 14 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 4: weren't true. 15 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 3: Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the 16 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 3: news almost every day. 17 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 4: Will break them down for you to determine whether they 18 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 4: could be real or whether we're being manipulated. 19 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 3: Welcome to Mission Implausible. 20 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 4: And on sports and espionage. A lot of people don't 21 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 4: realize it, but when John and I were serving abroad, 22 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 4: we're looking for ways to meet other diplomats so we 23 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 4: can assess them and so forth. And one of the 24 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 4: things sometimes we do is we organize sports events. Is 25 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 4: one country where foolishly, we organized a soccer tournament for 26 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 4: all the diplomats that we could get into them, and 27 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 4: we went up against the Egyptians and we got the 28 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 4: first goal and we lost twenty two to one. 29 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 5: It was never up. 30 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:23,199 Speaker 2: Afterwards, We're like, we're the CIA. 31 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 4: We should have challenged them to like baseball. 32 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 5: And they say intelligence is your middle name. 33 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. I remember my first tour. 34 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 3: I was in the Scandinavia, an international soccer team that 35 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 3: we tried to get all the diplomats on to play 36 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 3: against the different businesses there and stuff, so we could 37 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 3: get the Russians and the Hungarians and everybody on during 38 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 3: the Cold War, and we had a volleyball tournat where 39 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 3: the American embassy played against the Russians, and yeah, it 40 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 3: is true. We would just get hammered every time. And 41 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 3: I never I played football on lacross and basketball. I 42 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 3: never played soccer, so I had to play goaliecause I 43 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 3: don't even know how to. 44 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 4: This is really funny, but I do have to say 45 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 4: we did pay a softball tournament because we're all getting older. 46 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 4: And see I didn't run it, but we had a 47 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 4: lot of guys in there. Was allowed us to travel 48 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 4: so farth and it was in Africa. It was in Zimbabwe, 49 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 4: and of course the capital of Zimbabwe is Hurrari and 50 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 4: the name of our team was the Hurrari Krishna's. 51 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 5: That's very funny, but that was our cover. 52 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 4: Right. 53 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 3: I'm impressed you guys can talk this much about sports, 54 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 3: because my impression of both. 55 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 5: Of you is your geeks and you don't know about 56 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 5: so I am a geek and I'm not ashamed of it, 57 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 5: even though you said that in a way that made 58 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 5: me think you thought I should be for some reason. 59 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 2: Correct. 60 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 5: Correct, And I have never had even the slightest interest 61 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 5: in sports, although now because I'm a good father to 62 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 5: a lovely young man named Asher who's twelve and completely obsessed, 63 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 5: particularly with basketball, although any sport. I'm in my mid 64 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 5: fifties and I'm discovering sports for the first time, and 65 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 5: we're Celtic's household and two years wait. 66 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 2: Wait, wait a minute, wait a minute. 67 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 3: You're a New Yorker, but you know living in Vermont, 68 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 3: so you've chosen Boston over New York. 69 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 5: Actually good. So my dad is a sports fanatic. In fact, 70 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 5: he's such a sports fanatic that it helps explain why 71 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 5: I'm not a Spartan at it, and so I grew 72 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 5: up in a Boston household and I just didn't care. 73 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 5: But then Vermont is Celtics country, Red Sox, Celtics, Patriots, Ruins, 74 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 5: and my son is obsessed with all of them. And 75 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 5: I will say, following for the first time in my life, 76 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 5: like the year like the Celtics had quite two years, 77 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 5: but my son gets these conspiracy theories, like he really 78 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 5: will believe like the refs are on the take. There's 79 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 5: no way like they were, even though the next day 80 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 5: you read the papers and they're like, no, the reps 81 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 5: were equally, but it's like they just hate the Celtics. 82 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 5: They're killing. But it just made me realize if the 83 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 5: Celtics had lost. For those of our listeners who like me, 84 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 5: are geeks and don't care that much, the Celtics did 85 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 5: win the NBA Championship to become the winningest team with eighteen. 86 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 3: All right, all right, move on here to the conspiracy partist. 87 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 5: But it made me see how I could. It's just 88 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 5: so emotional, you're so invested, and the narrative ends with 89 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 5: them winning, and if they don't win, there has to 90 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 5: be some reason why they didn't win and it can't 91 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 5: be fair. But then you realize there's thirty teams that 92 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 5: have fans who feel that way. 93 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 4: But I will say very often, CIA guys are the 94 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,119 Speaker 4: worst sports fans because we get sent abroad for ten 95 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 4: fifteen years at a time and you're living in Africa 96 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 4: or the Middle East. You're not getting the sports scores 97 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 4: and things like that, and you start losing. It is 98 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 4: none of the people you talk to even know what 99 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 4: baseball is. That's the one like rugby. No, it's the 100 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:24,679 Speaker 4: one like cricket. It's the one like cricket. 101 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 3: It's like they nowadays you can watch like ESPN and 102 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 3: all kind of stuff. When I first started, when I 103 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 3: first one overseas, yeah, you just got the local television 104 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 3: or radio or whatever. You had none of the stuff 105 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 3: from the US. 106 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 4: We can sit down and we can talk to a 107 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 4: Burmese kernel till the cows come home. But put us 108 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 4: together with someone who's a Mets fan right from New 109 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 4: York and like, I don't know, I have no idea 110 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 4: what to talk. 111 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 3: Stay away from that fans. 112 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 2: That's smart. Yeah. 113 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 3: So our guest today is Chris Ballard. Chris is a journalist, 114 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 3: author and a recent senior writer at Sports Illustrated for 115 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 3: over twenty three years. He's written books on a variety 116 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 3: of sports subjects and is currently working on a book 117 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 3: for Simon and Schuster. So today you want to speak 118 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 3: with him about an article that he wrote about a 119 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 3: conspiracy surrounding the NBA Draft. Chris, can you outline a 120 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 3: little bit about that story for us? 121 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 2: Sure? 122 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 1: The nineteen eighty five NBA Draft went down as one 123 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: of the most controversial elements in NBA history. We looked 124 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 1: back on it at Sports Illustrated more than twenty years 125 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: later and had seen this continued interest in how it happened, 126 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 1: in how Patrick Ewing ended up with the New York 127 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: Knicks at the exact time when New York needed a 128 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: dominant big man and despite the odds against them. An 129 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: editor I had there assigned me the story and I 130 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: started digging into this controversy, assuming I might not get 131 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,239 Speaker 1: that far because people had dug into it for about 132 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: twenty plus years at this point, and they'd created YouTube 133 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: videos and analyzed it like it was a Bruder film. 134 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: And in the end I was able to talk to 135 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: David Stern, who was the commissioner during this time, he's 136 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: now passed away, and I was surprised that he actually 137 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: would speak about it. And I'm not sure sure how 138 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,919 Speaker 1: much of a definitive answer was possible or will ever be, 139 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: but it definitely added its some intrigue to it. The 140 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: NBA in nineteen eighty four was in a rough place. 141 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: They had not quite yet reached the era of Michael 142 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 1: Jordan and Larry Bird and Magic Johnson were in the league, 143 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: but they were just coming up and it hadn't created 144 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: this great marketing bonanza that it would end up creating. 145 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: So at the time, the NBA was trying to gain legitimacy, 146 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: which sounds a little bit weird now, but this is 147 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: an era when they had come off widespread drug use 148 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: problems With the NBA, they were showing their telecasts on 149 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: tape delay, They did not have cultural clout, and one 150 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: of the issues was that it felt like there was 151 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: there was no good sense of parody in the league, 152 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: and that lays down to the draft. So at the 153 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,919 Speaker 1: end of each season prior to nineteen eighty five, the 154 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,799 Speaker 1: worst teams in the league would have the best chance 155 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: of getting the best players coming out of college. So 156 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: if there was a really impressive college star Rick Berry, 157 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,600 Speaker 1: a Luel cinder Bill Russell, whichever NBA team had done 158 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 1: the worst the year before had a very good one 159 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 1: and two chance of getting that player, because the teams 160 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: with the two worst records at the end of the 161 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: year would flip a coin, and whoever on the coin 162 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: flip got the number one pick in the draft, and 163 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: whoever lost the coin flip got the number two pick 164 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: in the draft. So, if you knew a really good 165 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: player was about to graduate college and enter the NBA, 166 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: and during this era, you could intentionally lose games, and 167 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: this is something that teams were doing. And so this 168 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: happened for a few years in a row. And what 169 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: occurred is David Stern, who is then the new commissioner 170 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: of the NBA, realized he had a legitimacy problem. People 171 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: saw the NBA as a league where teams were intentionally 172 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: losing games to try to game the system. And so 173 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: what he did is he instituted the first draft lottery, 174 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: which meant that rather than a coin flip where you 175 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: had a one and two chance of getting the first pick, 176 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: instead the teams with these seven worst records would all 177 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: have an equal chance at that worst pick, So you're 178 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: going from fifty percent to fourteen percent, and they would 179 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: be decided by a random drawing, in this case from 180 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: a giant bubble. Now we're familiar with it for pink 181 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: punk balls, and this is going it HAPs to be 182 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: going into a draft when the most valuable and well 183 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: known NBA draft prospect in that era was coming out, 184 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: Patrick Ewing, seven foot one center from Georgetown, one of 185 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: the most famous athletes in the country at the time. 186 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: Is back when college basketball was more popular in many 187 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: ways in the NBA. So whoever won this prize, whoever 188 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: got Patrick Ewing, would immediately become not only a potential 189 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: contender or at least a very good team, and then 190 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: probably for a decade after, but would sell tickets, they 191 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: would sell merchandise, they would get buzz and just so 192 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: happens that New York, the biggest media market in the country, 193 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: finally has a down season that year, and just so 194 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: happens that New York ends up winning this fourteen percent chance, 195 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 1: and so Patrick Ewing goes to New York, which is 196 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: where David Stern, the commissioner, is from. So when this happens, 197 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: there was and immediately a lot of pushback, and people 198 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: were saying, how is it that Patrick Ewing ends up 199 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: in New York. They've watched this televised draft lottery and 200 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: they start coming up with theories. The very corner of 201 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: the envelope of the Knicks when they were drawn from 202 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: this quote random drawing, it's creased, so obviously David Stern 203 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: knew that he was picking the Nick's envelope, or they 204 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: had put the envelope in a freezer prior to putting 205 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: it in this drum. So David Stern put his hand 206 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: in and just reached for the frozen envelope, and thus 207 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: was born a controversy, a conspiracy theory that has continued 208 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: still to this day about whether or not the NBA 209 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: rigged the nineteen eighty five draft lottery to ensure the 210 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: best player went to the biggest media market. 211 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,439 Speaker 6: We're back at the Waldorf Astoria in New York, sitting 212 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:47,559 Speaker 6: in a starlight roof, and David de Busher is here 213 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 6: with a number one pick in the draft, and you said, 214 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,319 Speaker 6: you still you can he believe it. 215 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 3: It's just a wonderful thing having the number one pick. 216 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 5: And obviously I think everybody knows who are number one 217 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 5: pick is going to be and we're very delighted. 218 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: I think you knew it too. 219 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 4: Show the show what you got in your hand. 220 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 6: He has number thirty three all printed up here ready 221 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 6: up to this confidence for you. So you will make a. 222 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 2: Call to you, Chris. 223 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 4: Wouldn't that be bad sportsmanship? Wouldn't that be be cheating? 224 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 4: Wouldn't that be a conspiracy? Chris? 225 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 2: Where do you come out on this? 226 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:24,199 Speaker 1: I think probably going into my reporting, I leaned slightly 227 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: towards they pulled this off. The league pulled it off, 228 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: and they were able to get eing to New York. 229 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: By the time I was done reporting and talking to people, 230 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: I realized just how fly by night and a little 231 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: bit haphazard this whole process was, and probably how hard 232 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: it would have been for them to actually rig it. 233 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: So by the end of my reporting I came down 234 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: on it probably was not rigged, but I wouldn't put 235 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:47,959 Speaker 1: it past David Stern. 236 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 3: But there's a few things that I wonder on New 237 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 3: York wasn't the worst team, right, so they weren't in 238 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 3: the old system, weren't going to get the top picked. 239 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 3: But do the dates match up of when the idea 240 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 3: for the lottery came up. Was it clear that New 241 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 3: York would be one of those seven teams. We can 242 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 3: talk about what happened at the actual lottery, but even 243 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 3: the lead up to the lottery, when they decided through 244 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 3: the lottery, with the next part of that process, how 245 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 3: could they know where the Knicks were going to end 246 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 3: up in because they weren't the worst team. 247 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: So this is when David Stern proposes with his league 248 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: execs this draft lottery and they choose seven teams, and 249 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: it just so happens the Knicks have the seventh worst record, 250 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: so they barely make this cut to be one of 251 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: these seven teams. And you could say that was done intentionally. 252 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: You could say seven teams is about where you should 253 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: make the cutoff. But there was a direct reaction in 254 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,319 Speaker 1: this time to what Houston and the Los Angeles Clippers 255 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: have been doing, and they had been essentially taking a 256 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: race to the bottom to see who could lose more games, 257 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: playing Elvin Hayes at thirty eight for fifty two minutes 258 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: a game just to make sure they fell on an 259 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: important contest. So that impulse was correct, and it needed 260 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,559 Speaker 1: to be done to ensure there was legitimacy to the League. 261 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: But if that cut off of seven in the year 262 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: the Knicks happened to be bad, that led people down 263 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: this road. 264 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 2: Let's take a break. We'll be right back, and we're back. 265 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 4: So, Chris, if CIA were given the mission to do this, 266 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 4: we would probably we'd look at it in two ways. 267 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 4: We'd look at it like the equipment freezing the envelope, 268 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 4: and then we look at the people who would we 269 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 4: recruit to do that. But then how to keep it quiet, 270 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 4: which would also be important for this, And it's basically 271 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 4: how to keep people from blabbing afterwards and twenty years 272 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 4: after this happens, and in CIA or the US government, 273 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 4: we keep it quiet by threatening to throw people into 274 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 4: prison who like talk out of school, John and I 275 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 4: are still under an obligation not to spill certain secrets. 276 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 4: What would be the incentive not to like, make lots 277 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 4: of money by spilling the beans on this right? If 278 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 4: this was to say this is how we did it 279 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 4: twenty years later, or to million dollars for a book 280 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 4: or a pullitzerprise for pulling this off. 281 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: Exactly, and I think that's probably the best rationale for 282 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: why it wasn't rigged, because at this point David Stern 283 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: missis twenty twenty four. Him Stern has passed away, and 284 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: he definitely governed the league through a little bit of 285 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: intimidation and fear. So you can understand to a certain 286 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 1: extent how when he was still commissioner and even when retired, 287 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: why people might have been hesitant to say a thing 288 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,079 Speaker 1: about it. But now you'd assume something would come out 289 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: and it hasn't come out. And secondarily, you can look 290 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: at the amount of people that were involved in this, 291 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: from Pat O'Brien who was doing the broadcast, to the 292 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: people doing the TV trucks, to everyone who helped set 293 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: up the Waldorf which is where this was held. And 294 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: to pull this off. It couldn't have been a one 295 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: person job. Obviously, you know the counter argument to that 296 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,719 Speaker 1: might be, and just to engage in that, and I'll 297 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: go a little bit of a tangent, but you'll see I'll. 298 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 2: Give us the Grassy Knoll version. 299 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: Yes is you know, recently, as NBA fans will be aware, 300 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 1: a year and a year and a half ago this point, 301 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: during a pre season workout, Draymond Green of the Golden 302 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: State Warriors got upset with Jordan Poole, who was then 303 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: one of their guards, a young brash guard, and Draymond 304 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: Green punches him in practice. And you know, twenty years earlier, 305 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: this kind of thing was sort of the norm, not norm, 306 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: but it was part of NBA culture. You know, Michael 307 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: Jordan got in a fist fight in practice. These things happened. 308 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: But in today's era, the Warriors tried to keep this quiet, 309 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: and they succeeded in keeping it in house for a 310 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: very short amount of time until someone in the best 311 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: guesses it's probably someone in the video office took the 312 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: feed from up in the arena which showed this happening 313 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: and sold that video and then you know, probably disappeared 314 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: to Brazil or wherever. But so today, no way, you know, 315 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: no way you're pulling this off in such a physical fashion. 316 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: But I do think that in nineteen eighty four at least, 317 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: that probably wasn't what everyone was thinking about, and probably 318 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: the majority of people that were just hoping the NBA 319 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: would survive at this point and this would be successful 320 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: and this production would work out. 321 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 3: The question is, in his remaining decades after that, is 322 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 3: there anything else that David Stern seemed to get involved with. 323 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 3: It would suggest that perhaps this earlier conspiracy was just 324 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 3: part of a pattern. 325 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: Sure, you know, if you talk to enough people who 326 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: covered the league for a long time, I mean you 327 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: could say, if David Stern had gotten nailed for this, 328 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: it would not be the least of but it would 329 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: be one of the things he did that was more understandable. 330 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: I mean, he definitely ruled with an iron fist. There 331 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: are some bodies buried, so to speak, not actual ones, 332 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: but you know, there's a body buried in the rise 333 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: of the NBA, and he was ruthless and he wielded 334 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: his power. So certainly a person who would have conceived 335 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: of this not a question. And I think to a 336 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: certain extent Stern enjoyed in the years after being thought 337 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: to be someone who might have pulled this off, because 338 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: it's furnished his legacy either way, like it worked out 339 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: for them. More people watch the draft lottery every year, 340 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: more people talked about the league. He created this mythology, 341 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: so he sort of enjoyed going back and forth between 342 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: denying it and jokingly not denying it to help keep 343 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: that question alive. 344 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 4: Sports have always had conspiracies and conspiracy theories around them, 345 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 4: often due to to betting you know in the wider world, 346 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 4: like in nineteen sixty nine a war started between Honduras 347 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 4: and Al Salvador, like four thousand people were killed, three 348 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 4: hundred thousand people were made refugees over conspiracies over whether 349 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 4: this soccer match was fixed. And maybe if I could 350 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 4: just take you there for a second to talk about 351 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 4: maybe baseball's biggest one arguably the nineteen nineteen Black Sox 352 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 4: World Series issue right where Julis Joe Jackson was thrown 353 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 4: out of baseball forever after he signed this legal confession 354 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 4: even though he couldn't read or write. Court found an 355 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 4: innocent and this almost blew up baseball as well. 356 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: And it's always a matter of the power level, right, 357 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: So if the athlete, and it's really worked for college 358 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: basketball players, if the athlete could make more money, if 359 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: it was financially worthwhile for them, if they weren't going 360 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 1: to make the NBA, there's no pot of goal professionally 361 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 1: for them to take this side bet or to throw 362 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: a game, then they'd consider it. Now, the majority of 363 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: athletes would not go down that road, obviously, we hope, 364 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 1: but enough did. And you see that in the same 365 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: way that when it came the steroid era in baseball, 366 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: the financial payout and staying in the league was worth 367 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: it to the hundreds of players who decided to use steroids. 368 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: I think why it becomes less and less prevalent now 369 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: is because the amount of money that athletes in most 370 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 1: of these sports are making, it really doesn't make sense 371 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: get involved in throwing a game. But coming up and 372 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: especially like in nineteen eighty four, there was a lot 373 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: of a lot of impetus for someone to consider those routes, 374 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: and I think in this case, the impetus was not 375 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: necessarily for a individual player. It was for the league. Okay, 376 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 1: we'll get we're gonna gamble with our reputation because our 377 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: reputation already sucks, right, so we're going to gamble with 378 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: it a bit here for the payout of getting you 379 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: in this media market and getting people to talk about it. 380 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: So anytime that gamble was worth it for an athlete, 381 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: I think is when you would see the betting. 382 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 3: Going back to the eighty five draft, let's talk a 383 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 3: little bit about if it was a conspiracy pulling it off. 384 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 3: And so some of the theories were, like you already 385 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 3: mentioned the bent corner, the frozen envelope, how do those 386 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 3: stack up? 387 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: The bent corner concept, which is that when David Stern 388 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: is putting the envelopes, and they're these unnaturally large envelopes, 389 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: and they designed them so that when you pulled out 390 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: the placard in the envelope, it would have the logo 391 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,199 Speaker 1: of the team, so it was the Clippers or if 392 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: it was the Knicks, and then you place that logo 393 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: up on a shelf with the other logos and David 394 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 1: Stern would hold it up that on a twenty inch 395 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 1: TV of the era that the logo would pop. So 396 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: that was their explanation for why they needed these oversized envelopes. 397 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: But because they were oversized envelopes and not say ping 398 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 1: pong ball, because there was this large envelope, you could 399 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: in fact probably bend a corner if you wanted to. 400 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: And when you watch Stern put the envelopes in and 401 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 1: he puts in that envelope, it looks a little. 402 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 2: You could read into it. 403 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: It looks a little intentional that he drops it on 404 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: the side of this big plastic sphere, which is what 405 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: they're quote tumbling. It's really hard to tumble envelopes, but 406 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 1: that's what they had never to do, and so he 407 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 1: drops on the side and you see that corner bend. 408 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 1: You can also see a film of the draft of 409 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: Stern doing this. You can see that he fumbles a 410 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 1: bit when grabbing the envelopes, so conceivably he's feeling for 411 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: that bent corner. 412 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 5: Thank you. 413 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 7: The drum will now be turned to further mix the envelopes, 414 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 7: and then I will conduct the drawing. 415 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 6: That is Jack Joyce, he's the head of security for 416 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 6: the NBA. Spinning the drums. There's about six turns. 417 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 7: The team whose logo is in this envelope will have 418 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 7: the first pick in the NBA draft. 419 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: So that one definitely holds water. As far as would 420 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: it work, you know, the concept of the frozen envelopes, 421 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,439 Speaker 1: to my mind a little harder to believe because you 422 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 1: would have had to get this thing out of the 423 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 1: freezer theoretically get it in there, and it would have 424 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 1: to still retain a coolness. I've never really tried freezing paper, 425 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: but I can't imagine it would retain the coolness for 426 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: long enough to be a fail safe way for Stern 427 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: to make sure he got the right envelope. 428 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 3: But this is also being done right in front of 429 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 3: the executives of the losing teams here too, right, So 430 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 3: if you're going to pull us off, you can't pull 431 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 3: it off so that the Golden State Warriors executive sitting 432 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 3: there could say, oh my god, there's a bent corner 433 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 3: on that envelope. 434 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: And it's being broadcast live. There's already questions about this 435 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 1: draft that it happens to work out that the Knicks 436 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: are going to be in it, and you're going live 437 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,199 Speaker 1: for the first time with this new conceit, which is 438 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 1: that you're going to show the draft process on live 439 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,719 Speaker 1: TV at the halftime of an existing game. So Ale 440 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: Adols could have very easily thrown a fit right there 441 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 1: on the spot on live TV. So there's a lot 442 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: of variables that could have gone wrong for the NBA. 443 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 4: I assume people have recreated this, right. 444 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: There was a writer, Patrick Ruby into an eleven who 445 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 1: watched this film with a professional magician and asked, and 446 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 1: there's always no one can say for sure one way 447 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 1: or the other, or no one has at this point, 448 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: like they're bizarre enough theories that you were like, I 449 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 1: don't know they could pull that off, But at the 450 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: same time they are plausible theories to the point, you're like, 451 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: I don't. I can't say they didn't pull that off. 452 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: And that's what you've heard from any expert who has 453 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: been consulted on this. 454 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 3: And in this case, actually you could argue that the 455 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 3: losers all benefit of the NBA, all those other teams 456 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,360 Speaker 3: that maybe didn't get Patrick Ewing, the NBA became this 457 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 3: cash call for everybody. Conceivably David Start could have gone 458 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 3: around dead, but he say, listen, this is going to 459 00:21:57,760 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 3: benefit all of us if you just play a lot. 460 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 1: If it happened today, there would be a different response, 461 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 1: But in nineteen eighty five, in that era, there was 462 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: You're right, the rising tide lifts all ships because of 463 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: the TV contracts that came on the heels of it. 464 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 1: The TV contracts, the international, the global work that Stern 465 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: did were the values of each of these franchises, and 466 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: the salaries of everyone involved on that day just exponentially 467 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: grew over the next ten years. I mean, as opposed 468 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,479 Speaker 1: to the other great conspiracy of the NBA is that 469 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: Michael Jordan was banned from the NBA and that's why 470 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: he went to play baseball. And that's one where I 471 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: think if you had polled most people involved in the league. 472 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: They would have said that was bad for us. It 473 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: was good for baseball, but it was bad for the 474 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: NBA when Jordan was out of the league. 475 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 3: Let's take a break, we'll be right back, and boom, 476 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 3: we're back. Are there any other sports conspiracies that you're 477 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 3: interested in or that you feel rise to the level. 478 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: There definitely remained questions about the reffing and NBA and 479 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 1: Sports Illustrated. We had a writer who spent nine months 480 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: at one point, Thomas Lake, very talented writer, looking into 481 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,439 Speaker 1: the Kings Lakers series, and there reffing in it. And 482 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,959 Speaker 1: this was the era where the Kings were ascended. This 483 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: is in the early two thousands, Chris Weber, Paisiaestoyakovic, and 484 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: it looked like they're on the verge of becoming a 485 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: dominant team in the NBA. And there's this crazy Game 486 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: seven that the Lakers with Shaquille and Eland, Kobe Bryant 487 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: once again major media market eke out. And if you 488 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:37,440 Speaker 1: go back and you retroactively interviewed all these people involved 489 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:39,959 Speaker 1: in it, that one smelled bad. Weirdly enough, we never 490 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: ran the story. So maybe that's another conspiracy theory right there. 491 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 4: One place where the world of intelligence, where intelligence and 492 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 4: sports and conspiracies and conspiracy theories all genuinely overlap of 493 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 4: courses in the Olympics, and was at Sochi in twenty sixteen. 494 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 4: The Russian intelligence services were at the center of the 495 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 4: doping scandal, and Russian intelligence services were putting their fingers 496 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 4: on the scale to make sure that Putin won medals 497 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 4: and cheating was massive, factory level, with secret rooms and 498 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 4: whole teams of scientists to hide yurn and blood samples. 499 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a place where there's almost you assume if 500 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: you were to look at the last sixty years of 501 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: Olympic sports, and especially say, for example, like the Russian 502 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 1: team or the German team over the years, you would assist, Yes, 503 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: in particular, Yeah, you would assume more often than not 504 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,640 Speaker 1: that there had been some mechanics at play there. 505 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 4: I have to share a story real quick, so you know, 506 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 4: I spent a lot of time in Germany, and when 507 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 4: East Germany and West Germany, when they united West Germany, 508 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 4: the United Germany took over all of East Germany's like 509 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 4: debts and things that it had to fulfill, and it 510 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 4: turns out one of them was the East German athletes 511 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 4: who had been regularly beating the entire world and beating 512 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 4: the West Germans. All their athletes, especially their women, had 513 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 4: been like fully doped. And so these athletes who would 514 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 4: won all their gold medals, Yeah, I know, surprise, they're 515 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 4: now suffering from these terrible medical conditions because the East 516 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 4: Germans forced them to dope, or they agreed to it, 517 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 4: but they sued the West German government for medical malprek 518 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 4: because they took over there. They took over everything that 519 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 4: these Germans did. So the West German athletes are like 520 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 4: a they cheated. I didn't get a medal. They did, 521 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 4: and now now their health is all fucked up because 522 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 4: of all the drugs, and now they're suing. I got 523 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 4: my taxes who've got to pay for their medical care. 524 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 2: That's not okay. 525 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 4: I didn't see the movie with Matt Damon and Victus 526 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 4: about South Africa re entering the world of rugby after 527 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 4: apartheip was coming down, but there was an interesting story 528 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 4: that came out afterwards of a conspiracy. Theory is that 529 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,479 Speaker 4: the New Zealanders who lost to the South Africans, who 530 00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:00,080 Speaker 4: were the great favorites, the night before the game, they 531 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 4: all came down with diarrhea. They all come down with 532 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 4: they all got sick, and there was this mysterious waitress 533 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 4: who served them the food, called Susie, and they never 534 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 4: saw her again and she could never be found. Although 535 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 4: the New Zealand team swears they all know who she 536 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 4: is and they could identify her. The South Africans couldn't 537 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 4: produce her. And later this guy Stein, one of Nelson 538 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 4: and Dala's bodyguards, came out and said it was the 539 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 4: South African Intelligence Service. They needed South Africa to have 540 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 4: a good feeling, They needed it to win. They wanted 541 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 4: to keep civil war at bay in South Africa because 542 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 4: apart I hadn't quite come down yet and they needed 543 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 4: this win. 544 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 3: I can remember years ago when they thought was that 545 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 3: they not poisoned, but it had given Michael Jordan bad 546 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 3: food or something before one of the playoff games. 547 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. 548 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, and maybe every player should have a taster. 549 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 3: Now, Chris is a fascinating story. What is it your 550 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 3: book that you're writing now about That. 551 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: One's totally different. That's sports and jacent I would say 552 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: it's the concept of ice swimming and how it has 553 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: this roots back in Europe, going back four hundred five 554 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: hundred years, and then how it's now being looked at 555 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: as a way of cold exposure. So there's a whole 556 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: science to a science and history, and I'm doing a 557 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: narrative exploration of it. 558 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,120 Speaker 3: My first overseas assignment was to Finland, and I lived 559 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 3: right on the Baltic and I lived right next to 560 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 3: the Finish Sauna Society, And they in the Baltic under 561 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 3: the water had this little bubble machine that would continue 562 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 3: all year long, so it would create this big hole 563 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 3: in the ice over the winter, and the ice could 564 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 3: get is eight to ten feet or more thick, and 565 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 3: you'd go swim in there after you took a sauna 566 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 3: and swim into the ice and stuff. The fact that 567 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 3: sauna was so central a part of the culture in 568 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 3: a place like Finland, and the fact that everybody goes 569 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 3: in there naked, it was a great opportunity to steal 570 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 3: stuff from people's wallets and clothes and car keys and 571 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 3: other things while you were in the sauna, or at 572 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 3: least copy them so that you could use them later 573 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 3: to perhaps break into their place and steal secrets. 574 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: Wow, I'm going to be more careful when I go 575 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: to the beach. 576 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 2: There you go. As long as you're not a KGB spy, 577 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. 578 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 3: Well, Chris, this is really great. Thank you for talking 579 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,439 Speaker 3: to us. Fascinating stuff and I really enjoyed your story. 580 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no problem. Good luck with the podcast. 581 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 4: So now that we've had someone who really knows what 582 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,199 Speaker 4: they're talking about, let's switch to the other side and 583 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 4: bring in John and Adam. 584 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 5: Hey, guys, I don't. 585 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 8: Know a lot about sports, but I do know about 586 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 8: scientific experiments, because what I did was I tested the 587 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 8: theory that you could freeze an envelope and then feel 588 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 8: the temperature differential. So I froze a bunch of different 589 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 8: envelopes for different periods of times, brought them out, did 590 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 8: a blind field test between them and one that hasn't 591 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 8: been frozen, and after about fifteen seconds, they all felt 592 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 8: the same. So I frozen for longer. Same thing. My 593 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 8: son said, try spraying them with water and the water 594 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 8: will hold the temperature longer, and he was right for 595 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 8: about thirty seconds. If you really wanted to make it noticeable, 596 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 8: I think you'd have to do something physical to it. 597 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,239 Speaker 8: Different texture, different shape than in the corner. Significantly. I 598 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 8: know all of these were discussed, so I tested these 599 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 8: as well, and it is really hard to tell the difference. 600 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 8: I think the way to do it would be to 601 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 8: have a different texture of paper. But this all goes 602 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 8: back to, well, how many people have to be involved 603 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 8: in this. You don't just get to go in yourself 604 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 8: and replace the envelope, but you have to feel up 605 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 8: the different envelopes, right, you got to feel this one. 606 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 4: Oh, that's not it. And then he's got to know 607 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 4: did they show him? 608 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 3: Like, yeah, you can see him what he does, and 609 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 3: I don't see that there's. 610 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 4: Any It's all how you see it. 611 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 8: Some people say they see that video and it looks 612 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 8: like he's feeling around. 613 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 5: If you guys got the technical branch of the CIA, 614 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 5: couldn't you could solve this? 615 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 4: Right? 616 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah we could have. 617 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 3: Usually the first thing to do is to think there's 618 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 3: probably an easier way around all this. Professionals who do 619 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 3: this type of thing could probably come up with a 620 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 3: way to do it. But again, you're talking about stuff 621 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 3: that you have to bring in. 622 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 4: You know, there are ways of palming things and having 623 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 4: it up your sleeve, pulling rabbits out of hats and 624 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 4: shit like that, but that's not saying that like any 625 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 4: schmoke can just like quick go do it. Penn and 626 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 4: Teller could pull it off. 627 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 5: When I think about the is it called the technical branch. 628 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 3: What's it called technical services? 629 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 5: Office of technical Did you have cool things that they like? 630 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 5: Weird problems that they solved? 631 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 2: Yeah? Tell me what first? 632 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 3: In the whole disguise thing, they had actually people who 633 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 3: had worked in Hollywood and had done masks and done 634 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 3: things for Hollywood. There's all kinds of technical gear that 635 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 3: we could use. In fact, I remember when I was 636 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 3: in Moscow and we were under surveillance all the time, 637 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 3: we actually did hire a magician to try to work 638 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 3: with us, to think about sleight of hand as we 639 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 3: being watched, trying to get away with things and that 640 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,719 Speaker 3: type of thing. So it's an ongoing process and it's 641 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 3: part of understanding what you're up against and how you 642 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 3: can defeat it, either technically or visually or what have you? 643 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 2: Did? 644 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 5: It was it kind of Willy Wonka ish like fun 645 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 5: to go down there? Or is just an office with 646 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:52,959 Speaker 5: a bunch of it? 647 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 3: Was fun? I remember when I got did you ever 648 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 3: go do the fancy disguise stuff done? 649 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 4: Yeah? I did, and I did the ots thing, like, 650 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 4: we have places abroad where we do them, and I 651 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 4: visited some of those and they've got like carpentry and 652 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 4: working on cars, and yeah, disguises and yeah they do 653 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 4: some pretty but most of them are pretty straightforward, like 654 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 4: how to hide something or how to trick something out. 655 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 4: It's not Penn and Teller stuff. We're not hiding tigers 656 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 4: or anything like that. 657 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 5: You've never hired. 658 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 3: But if we had hired a tiger, tiger, you tie 659 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 3: the fuck out of it. 660 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 2: Although you never know what that tiger's going off turn 661 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 2: on you either. 662 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 5: But yeah, so I will say, like, hearing about this 663 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 5: whole case, it does make me think of a point 664 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 5: that some economists made to me once, which is the 665 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 5: general assumption should be if there is money to be 666 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 5: made by breaking the rules, they will be broken to 667 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 5: the extent that they can be broken. Like that, you 668 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 5: should just assume that if there's an incentive, people are 669 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 5: going to work to break it. 670 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 3: All right, next time, let's talk about stuff that you 671 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 3: guys do know about. Residan sports. I think you made 672 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 3: a You guys tried really hard, and I'm impressed by that. 673 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 5: I have been to more sports events I've watched more 674 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 5: sports in the last like fourteen months than in my 675 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 5: entire life, and I'm enjoying the time with my kid. 676 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 5: We'll see you next time. 677 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 8: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'Shea, John Seipher, 678 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 8: and Jonathan Sterner. 679 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 2: The associate producer is Rachel Harner. 680 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 8: Mission Implausible is a production of honorable mention and abominable 681 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 8: pictures for iHeart Podcasts.