1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero. I am Akshatrati today the forgotten crisis. 2 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: Here on zero. We've dedicated a lot of time at 3 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: covering COP twenty nine at the end of last year 4 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: in Baku. We interviewed the heads of state, the CEO 5 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: of Exonmobil, and even the COP thirty president, who by 6 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: that time hadn't been named as such. But there was 7 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,599 Speaker 1: another COP last year, COP sixteen, that focused on biodiversity 8 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: in Cali, Colombia, where nations came together to try to 9 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: figure out how to protect natural habitats, plant, animal species 10 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:51,639 Speaker 1: and halt the destruction of nature. If the climate crisis 11 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: is a monster wave, the biodiversity crisis could be a 12 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: Leviathan And unlike COP twenty nine, actually COP sixteen is 13 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: still not over. It ended before key agreements could be reached, 14 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: and so talks are going to resume next week in Rome. 15 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: I wasn't at COP sixteen, but my colleague Natasha White 16 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 1: was high. 17 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:14,839 Speaker 2: Actually I was, indeed, and thanks for having me Today. 18 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: We're going to talk a lot more about why these 19 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: talks dragged on and what will happen in Rome. But 20 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: Natasha tell me first, how was Cali CALLI. 21 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 2: So it's the capital of sugar cane in Columbia. It's 22 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 2: sort of nestled between mountains and the sea, and it's 23 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 2: also known to be the capital of salsa salsa dance, 24 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 2: not the salsa sauce, and it's a really vibrant town. 25 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:41,839 Speaker 2: And this came through, i think to a great extent 26 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 2: in the way that Columbia hosted the COP. It was 27 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 2: really framed as the People's cop and the Green Zone. 28 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 2: So the area at these cops you have a blue 29 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 2: zone where all the official proceedings take place and you 30 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 2: need to have official access and it's much more managed. 31 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 2: But then you also have a green zone where anyone 32 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 2: can exhibit and the general public can visit. And in Cali, 33 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 2: the green zone and the blue zone were apart, so 34 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 2: the green zone was downtown. It was kind of in 35 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 2: the center of the city. It had a sort of 36 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 2: festival street festival vibe. It was open from the morning 37 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 2: to late at night, and there were live music events. 38 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 2: There was salsa. Unfortunately I didn't make any of it. 39 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 2: Well that's probably no bad thing. I can't dance, but 40 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 2: it was a really vibrant, warm place to host it, 41 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 2: and the cop itself was kind of nestled out of 42 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 2: town in the foothills of some hills, so you had 43 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 2: beautiful mountain backdrop to the conference venue and yeah, beautiful 44 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 2: nature all around. 45 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 1: Well, you clearly got the better assignment here at Bloomberg 46 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: because you also came to Baku and that place had 47 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: no natural daylight, let alone all the beautiful mountains. 48 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true. In Baku, we kind of walked into 49 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:52,799 Speaker 2: a tent in a stadium. There was no natural light, 50 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 2: there was no fresh air, there was nowhere to stand 51 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 2: outside and get some daylight. In Cali, the tents were 52 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: all separated, it was hot, you know, there was water features. 53 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 2: It was just a much more kind of humane setting 54 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 2: for a COP. There was an explicit choice, I think, 55 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 2: to host the COP in this city because of its nature, 56 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 2: and you really feel it surrounds you. You know. We 57 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 2: went out for dinner one night in the old town 58 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 2: and we were sort of taken over by a cacophony 59 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 2: of frogs while we were eating. 60 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: Well that's loud. I mean frogs I like, but I 61 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: don't like the croaking. This sounds actually quite pleasant. Well, 62 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: it seems like you had way more fun than we 63 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: did at COP twenty nine. But biodiversity cops in general 64 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: now have started to become bigger and are being given 65 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: perhaps not as much importance as climate cops, but increasing importance. 66 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: And what happened at COP fifteen in Montreal perhaps made 67 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: that happen because it was this big moment where one 68 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: nineteen nations reached an agreement to preserve thirty percent of 69 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: the planet's land and seas. Having that big goal set 70 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: was important. But really just to understand what is at 71 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: stake with biodiversity. 72 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 2: Well, I think if you start with the numbers, WWF 73 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 2: does analysis which has shown that over the past five decades, 74 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 2: over the past fifty years, the diversity of species has 75 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 2: declined by I think around seventy five percent, which is massive. 76 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 2: So that's the numbers. I think everybody everybody feels it, 77 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 2: Like you know, in this country in the UK where 78 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,359 Speaker 2: we're both based, people commonly talk about the number of 79 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 2: insects on their wind screens when they drive around in 80 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 2: the summer. And even I am in my mid thirties, 81 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 2: like when I was younger, I grew up in the countryside, 82 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 2: it was something I remember regularly not being able to 83 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 2: wash the windscreen well enough to see where you're going 84 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 2: and now it's just not the case. You know, over 85 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 2: the over the summer, we had the windows open and 86 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 2: the lights on and normally there'd be insects buzzing around them, 87 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:56,119 Speaker 2: but there are none. So everybody recognizes this drastic loss 88 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 2: in biodiversity, and this country, the UK, is one of 89 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,840 Speaker 2: the worst, but it's affecting every country in the world 90 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 2: and that's what this Global bio Diversity Framework that was 91 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 2: agreed in Montreal in twenty twenty two seeks to address. 92 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 2: And so the kind of overarching goal of that, which 93 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 2: is for twenty fifty, is for the world to be 94 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 2: living in harmony with nature. But underneath these broad goals 95 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 2: there's a number of i think around twenty three targets 96 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 2: which are a lot more specific. One of them is 97 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 2: the protect thirty percent of land and sea, well land 98 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 2: and water actually by twenty thirty. And so countries gathered 99 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 2: in cop this year to look at the progress that 100 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 2: they've made since that framework. 101 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: Was agrees and even at this cop in biodiversity finance 102 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: was at the heart of the conversation. But what was 103 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: the approach to try and raise money towards what clearly 104 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: is a very important issue. Not just from a perspective 105 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: of how humans should live on the planet, but also 106 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 1: from the perspective of how do we sustain an economy 107 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: where humans thrive because nature is so important to enable 108 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 1: that to happen. 109 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, So on the money, there's a seven hundred billion 110 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 2: dollar per year financing gap that's been identified for tackling 111 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 2: this problem, and that's kind of split into two buckets. One, 112 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 2: which covers around five hundred billion, is about redirecting harmful subsidies, 113 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 2: so the money that governments pay to make cheaper things 114 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 2: that destroy nature, so fossil fuel production, chemical agriculture, things 115 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 2: like this, and the goal there is to redirect those 116 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 2: subsidies from doing harm to things that do good, so 117 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 2: regenerative agriculture or what's spink called the bioeconomy, basically business 118 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 2: that doesn't harm the planet. And then the other is 119 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 2: the remaining two hundred billion is what needs to be 120 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 2: raised in kind of new money from all sources, public 121 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 2: and privates. And that's where we see a lot of 122 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 2: the kind of parallels in the climate space, I think, 123 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 2: where it's about getting more grant money from governments, more 124 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 2: concessional finance governments, and multi natural development banks and more 125 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 2: private sectimoney invested in again things that aren't harming nature 126 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 2: but instead are sensitive to it. 127 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 1: In the climate sphere, I think there is now a 128 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: certain sense that has settled, and I'm not saying it's 129 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: widely accepted and always consistent, but the fact that cleaner 130 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: energy is cheaper than fossil fuels, that investing in clean 131 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: energy is actually going to not just have an impact 132 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: on carbon, but so many other things that all cannar 133 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: that you know, the only way progress or economic progress 134 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: could happen is through extraction, through perhaps some amount of 135 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: harm to the environment. Has been in some ways being 136 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: broken in the climate sphere. Do you think that's been 137 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 1: broken in the biodiversity sphere. Do you think people understand 138 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: that it is actually possible to have economic activity that 139 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: does not harm nature. 140 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 2: Well, I think the challenge of bio diversity and sort 141 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 2: of nature loss more broadly, as it's extremely cross cutting 142 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 2: right in some areas. I would say it's even more 143 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 2: fundamental in the bi diversity space. If you look at agriculture, 144 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 2: I think agriculture companies are not going to make any 145 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 2: money unless they change a business model. So in that 146 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 2: space it makes perfect business sense to manage the land 147 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 2: in a way that nurtures nature so that nature can 148 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 2: go back, you know, in terms of production. In other areas, 149 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 2: it's more challenging, I think, because the business model that 150 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 2: we're we're used to is externalizing the negativities. You know, 151 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 2: we dun't waste, we don't really recycle it or limit 152 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,959 Speaker 2: its production. And it's those business models where it's cheapest 153 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 2: to behave in that way are the ones that really 154 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 2: need to fundamentally change. And that's structural and it's hard, 155 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: and it's not just about moving subsidies but overhauling an 156 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 2: entire way of functioning, which is a big challenge. 157 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: And so at this COP sixteen, what were the headline 158 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: things on the agenda? And we know from headlines from 159 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: stories you've written that largely it ended in failure. But 160 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: let's just first go through what were things on the 161 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: agenda and understand why it was classed as a failure. 162 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 2: What was on the agenda at the outset, which we 163 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 2: identified as the most important one, was a stock take. 164 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 2: So countries have to submit national biodiversity plans for how 165 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 2: they are going to achieve the targets and the goals. 166 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 2: As a global Biodiversity Framework and the deadline for doing 167 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 2: so was the beginning of cop so by that measure, 168 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 2: very few countries managed to submit their nb SAPs on time. 169 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 2: Some gave reasons for that, which was that they really 170 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,599 Speaker 2: want to engage, for example, indigenous peoples and local communities 171 00:09:55,640 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 2: and defining these kind of cross cutting strategies. That takes 172 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 2: time and it's not easy. But nonetheless they've had two 173 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,079 Speaker 2: years to do it and a lot of them most 174 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 2: of them failed, So by that measure, it wasn't a 175 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 2: great success. The second big agenda item was a strategy, 176 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 2: a resource mobilization strategy, so a way to raise this 177 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 2: two hundred billion dollars per year from public and private 178 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 2: sources to tackle nature loss. The third main agenda item 179 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 2: was finding a way to collect and share the profits 180 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 2: from companies that benefit from what's called digital sequence information 181 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 2: on genetic resources. And it's extremely technical, but in essence, 182 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:51,359 Speaker 2: what it's about is pharmaceutical companies, cosmetics companies, biotech companies, 183 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 2: all of them make money out of products that are 184 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 2: based on nature's genetics and that used to be a 185 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 2: physical process. But in the day and age that we 186 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 2: live in today, obviously a lot of that has become digitized. Yeah, 187 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 2: so it's difficult for the countries that are home to 188 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 2: this diversity to benefit from it. So, for example, the 189 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 2: venom of a lizard found in Mexico and the US 190 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 2: inspired the blockbuster drug ozenpic for weight loss and diabetes. Well, 191 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 2: Mexico may well not have been remunerated for the benefits 192 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 2: that companies have accumulated thanks to it its biological genetic diversity. 193 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 2: So the idea of this mechanism is to find a 194 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 2: way to collect a portion of the profits or of 195 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 2: the revenue of these big pharmaceutical biotech companies and share 196 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 2: them with the countries from which these resources come. It's 197 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 2: not a kind of direct trade, but the idea is 198 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 2: there'll be a kind of levy of one percent of 199 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 2: profits or zero point one percent of revenue that will 200 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 2: go into a fund, and then that fund will distribute 201 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,559 Speaker 2: money to countries that are rich in biodiversity to help 202 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 2: protect biodiversity. And those were the kinds of details actually 203 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 2: that were ironed out during the cops and throughout the 204 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 2: two weeks negotiators worked on this text, which one of 205 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 2: you know, a veteran negotiator, described to me as the 206 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 2: most complex item he's ever negotiated in his life. He 207 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 2: kind of likened it to quantum physics, and you can 208 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 2: imagine when you're talking about a voluntary mechanism to levy 209 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 2: certain sectors globally through a United Nations mechanism to sort 210 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 2: of centralize money and distribute it. There's a number of 211 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 2: questions there that are extremely difficult to iron out, and 212 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 2: some were ironed out and some weren't. But that was 213 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 2: a big focus of an event. 214 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: So usually these COP meetings come toward and end with 215 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: all these countries negotiating and ideally coming to a consensus 216 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: that signs off on some of the headline items in 217 00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: an agenda that happened at COP twenty nine with the 218 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: three hundred billion dollar climate finance goal and the attempt 219 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: to try and get the carbon markets through Article six 220 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: to be working where countries could trade corbon credits. How 221 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: did COP sixteen end. 222 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 2: Well, it ended over a couple of days, which I 223 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 2: think is the first point. We were reassured in the 224 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 2: run up that it's very unusual to go over time, 225 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 2: and it ran over time and ended somewhat abruptly after 226 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 2: a big success of signing off on a document explaining 227 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 2: the ways to kind of operationalize this digital sequence information 228 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 2: fund called the Cali Fund. That was a big success, 229 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 2: and you had a kind of sentiment that, you know, 230 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 2: momentum was good and things were going well. And then 231 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 2: they came to the resource mobilization strategy, and after some 232 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 2: welcoming comments from developing countries, developed nations stood up one 233 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 2: after the other and just said no, no, no, no, 234 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 2: at which point I think Brazil intervened to ask if 235 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 2: there were still because we were in an early hours 236 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: of Saturday at that point, and some people had started 237 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 2: to leave to get their flights, So are there enough 238 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 2: people in the room to make a decision. There weren't, 239 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 2: and so the event ended abruptly and has been suspended 240 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 2: and will be resumed next month in Rome, where they 241 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 2: will iron out or try to iron out over two 242 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,479 Speaker 2: or three days, which seems rather short given the contentions 243 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 2: the outstanding agenda items. 244 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: So this is unusual and rare, but it's not unprecedented. 245 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: COP meetings of this kind, not just in nature or climate, 246 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: but also in other types of big un bodies tend 247 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: to have this option of suspending the COP and then 248 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: restarting it in another place. Was there Seene that you 249 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: remember that sort of like captured how it feels because 250 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: obviously they spent two weeks that all these people from 251 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: different countries, they really want an outcome and then they 252 00:14:58,560 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: don't have it. 253 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 2: I think there are a few moments. One was the 254 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 2: kind of emotive intervention from the Philippines talking about the 255 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 2: urgency of what's being discussed when they were kind of 256 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 2: the countries were arguing over some details of texts. You know, 257 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 2: he mentioned that they've lost already recently a couple of 258 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 2: species of birds to typhoons, which again speaks to the 259 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 2: interconnectivity of climate change and nature lost issues, So that 260 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 2: there was that emotive intervention. And then shortly after an 261 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 2: Australian negotiator had their heads in their arms and Suzanna Mohammad, 262 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 2: the cop president, asked in plenary Australia, are you still awake? 263 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 2: And then you had a standing ovation when they signed 264 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 2: off the digital sequence information on genetic resources text and 265 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 2: then suddenly this total collapse and again the moment that 266 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 2: stuck in my mind. After the kind of show of 267 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 2: the whole event in Calle, you know, there was a 268 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 2: big opening ceremony, there was real kind of energy throughout 269 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 2: the event, the president just walked off the stage and 270 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 2: it ended. There was no closing speech, nothing, It just 271 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 2: collapsed and mohammed. 272 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: The Environment Minister of Columbia was the president of COP sixteen. Well, 273 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: she was also quite active at COP twenty nine, and 274 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: it felt to me that having seen what happened at 275 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: COPS sixteen, she felt this urge to make sure that 276 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: that kind of failure doesn't happen again, and she partly 277 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: succeeded at COP twenty nine. But you know, we'll see 278 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: what happens at the resumed COP and whether whether in 279 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: Rome they come up with the items that haven't been agreed. 280 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: So let's take the big one, which is where develop 281 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: country said no, no, no, What was that and how 282 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: do you resolve that? 283 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the crux of the issue in Cali was 284 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 2: around the creation of a new fund. So as part 285 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 2: of the resource mobilization strategy or the way to kind 286 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 2: of collect developed country contributions, a fund was set up 287 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 2: called the Global BIY Diversity Framework Fund, which is housed 288 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 2: at the Global Environment Facility, which is based in Washington, DC. 289 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 2: It was a fit launched last summer August twenty twenty three, 290 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 2: and developing countries basically see it as controlled by developed 291 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 2: nations and they want a new fund that's overseen by 292 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 2: the COP so the Conference of Parties so much broader 293 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 2: representation instead, and developed countries on the other hand say 294 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 2: that we've already got the GBFF, let's just focus on 295 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 2: making it better. A new fund doesn't mean more money, 296 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 2: and they disagree basically. So there was a bit of 297 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 2: a curveball in the sense that on Friday morning, so 298 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 2: the day that the event was meant to wrap up, 299 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 2: this fund wasn't really on the table. It was going 300 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 2: to be discussed at a later date. Then I believe 301 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 2: it was in the early hours of Saturday morning a 302 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 2: new text got tabled and the fund was back in there. 303 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 2: So the countries didn't really have time to go through 304 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 2: the text, and the developing countries very much welcomed it 305 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 2: when they go to that agenda item, but when it 306 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 2: turned over to the developed nations one after the other, Candada, Japan, 307 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 2: the EU and others just said no, no, no, And 308 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 2: I mean an important point to highlight is that when 309 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 2: the GBFF was formed, it was formed as a temporary 310 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 2: stop gap solution to twenty thirty so from twenty thirty 311 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 2: there is a question mark over where this money is 312 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 2: going to be collected, and what was proposed in the 313 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 2: text was the last version of the text was that 314 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 2: from twenty thirty a new fund overseen by the Copper 315 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 2: set up. So I think it does speak a bit 316 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 2: to the distrusts that was in the room, like the 317 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 2: developing nations, I think were proposing a pragmatic solution that 318 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 2: worked a little bit better from them in terms of representation, 319 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 2: and it was just outright denied. 320 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: What do you think private markets can do to try 321 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: and address this crisis and how does it fit in 322 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: with their business model which is very clearly towards making money. 323 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 2: Well, I think the way in which it's broken down 324 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 2: and the numbers and the text is quite a useful 325 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 2: way of thinking about it. Five hundred billion needs to 326 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 2: come from redirecting harmful subsidies, so you can think about 327 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 2: that more broadly as limiting or impact on the plan 328 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 2: and finding business models that are more well sustainable. The 329 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 2: flip side of that is about how to raise this 330 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 2: additional two hundred billion, and that's of course where private 331 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 2: finances is focusing its attention. These are opportunities to make 332 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 2: money out of the problem, and there there was these 333 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 2: cops are not really the forum for that, but of 334 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 2: course there's plenty of side events where the private sector 335 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 2: can participate. And there were two products, as it were, 336 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 2: that were really prominent, I would say in CALLI. One 337 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 2: is biodiversity credits, so the kind of equivalent to a 338 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 2: carbon credit, where carbon credits are about offsetting your emissions. 339 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,360 Speaker 2: There's a big debate in the bidiversity space about whether 340 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 2: the buidiversity credits are about offsetting your impacts on nature 341 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 2: or whether they're about making a positive contribution to projects 342 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 2: that help protect it. But nonetheless these a tradeable instruments 343 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 2: that are very controversial and was a big, big part 344 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 2: of the proceedings there, to the extent that rooms were overflowing. 345 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 2: I think every single day there was a side event 346 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 2: on bio diversity credits. A number of kind of guidance 347 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 2: principles were launched to try to make sure the market 348 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 2: doesn't fall down the same shortcomings as the carbon markets. 349 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 2: At the same time, businesses were putching their ways of 350 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 2: measuring and trading nature. And the other one was debt 351 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 2: for nature swaps, which are deals where countries can refinance 352 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,719 Speaker 2: their sovereign debts on better terms and allocate the savings 353 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 2: to conservation projects. So this has been a model really 354 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 2: spearheaded by the Nature Conservancy US nonprofit and Credit Sweese. 355 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 2: But is now you know, witnessing a lot of competition 356 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 2: from big global banks that ultimately can make a lot 357 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 2: of money out of the fees that they get from 358 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 2: structuring these extremely complex and bespoke deals. And some are 359 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 2: also offering loans now and you know obviously making money 360 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,479 Speaker 2: out of the interest on those. So those are kind 361 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 2: of the two products I would say that are really 362 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,160 Speaker 2: in the eyes of wool Street when it comes to 363 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 2: this issue, and. 364 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 1: They're both new instruments. You and I have covered carbon 365 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: credits for a while now and to the extent where 366 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: I actually am still very tired of covering them, but 367 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: there is no way around covering them. Biodiversity credits, which 368 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: you've covered also for some time. What are the pitfalls 369 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 1: that are different from carbon? 370 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 2: Right? 371 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: In carbon the pitfall is you're supposed to actually offset 372 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,880 Speaker 1: for a ton of carbon and you want to ideally 373 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: have it one to one. So if you're extracting fossil 374 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: fuel from the ground, then you want to have that 375 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 1: carbon go back into the ground, and typically that doesn't 376 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: happen in biodiversity. How do you exactly do that? If 377 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: you kill a bird that is extinct, now you can't 378 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: offset that by bringing that bird back to life, right. 379 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, So this offsetting credits debate is very contentious and 380 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,879 Speaker 2: people feel strongly, as they do in the carbon space, 381 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 2: about both sides of the argument. So on the one hand, 382 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 2: if you think about it, we are going to continue 383 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 2: destroying nature in the future. We build homes, we build infrastructure, 384 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 2: we build minds to fuel the energy transition, and that 385 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 2: destroys tracks of land and everything that lives on it. 386 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 2: So there's a group of people that think that offsetting 387 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 2: is fundamentally critical. You have to compensate for your impact, 388 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 2: otherwise we're just going to have a downward spiral of loss. Obviously, 389 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,199 Speaker 2: there's a number of guardrails that can be put in place, 390 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 2: and the people who back that generally I think promote, 391 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 2: which is that it should be a regulated market with 392 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 2: proper oversight. The offsetting should be done as local as 393 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,360 Speaker 2: possible and in as equivalent ecosystems as possible. So if 394 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 2: you impact to wetland in Norfolk, you rebuild a Wetland 395 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,919 Speaker 2: and Norfolk. I think people who think about this seriously, 396 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 2: you don't really agree that a rainforest in Brazil can 397 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 2: be offset with savannah in Kenya. The other side is 398 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 2: that biodiversity offsetting is fundamentally flawed and given the complexities 399 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 2: of nature and the challenges with measuring it, and the 400 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 2: fact that there are no single units that there are 401 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 2: for carbon, there's no one ton of carbon dirk side 402 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 2: or greenhouse cash equivalent emissions, that there is a nature 403 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 2: that this is never going to work. So that's the 404 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 2: offsetting debate, and then so out of that really has 405 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 2: emerged the credits. They sit in what's called the mitigation 406 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 2: hierarchy at the very end. So you know, you impact nature, 407 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 2: you minimize your impact on nature, or you avoll your 408 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 2: impact on nature, You minimize it, you restore it, you 409 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,360 Speaker 2: offset it, and then you invest in a bid diversity 410 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 2: credit and you are nature positive, obviously ignoring the fact 411 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 2: that you have to offset your nature to get to 412 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 2: the zero to become positive. So it's a very kind 413 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 2: of theoretical debate that once you then look at the 414 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 2: by side and the people who actually are going to 415 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 2: be spending money on these instruments, whether there'll be any 416 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 2: demand for credits rather than offsets, and what happened to 417 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 2: the offsetting component. If these are any credits, and it 418 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 2: starts to kind of I think, fall apart. But there's 419 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 2: also an international market for these emerging companies are beginning 420 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 2: to trade them globally, so you will get a company 421 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 2: with you know, supply chains in one area of the 422 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 2: world or in one country, investing you know, in credits elsewhere. Obviously, 423 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 2: I think the goal is to keep it as local 424 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:33,159 Speaker 2: as possible, but that's not how the market itself is 425 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 2: being set up. And I think, as we've seen over 426 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:37,880 Speaker 2: and over again, once you create a market, it takes 427 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 2: on a life of its own, and if it's outside 428 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 2: of regulated frameworks, then anything goes basically, and that's what 429 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 2: we've seen in the carbon market, and I think that's 430 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 2: the big risk for the biodiversity credits market, which is 431 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 2: why there was such a focus on it in Cali. 432 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: And can you give me an example of what a 433 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 1: biodiversity credit looks like, because some are clearly selling already. 434 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 2: So England last year brought into force what's called Biodiversity 435 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 2: net game, which is an offsetting mechanism. Infrastructure developers and 436 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 2: home builders are required to compensate and find ten percent 437 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,640 Speaker 2: on top, so one hundred and ten percent compensates for 438 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 2: their impacts. And that means there's a number of developers 439 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 2: across the country now that are taking over degraded land 440 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 2: and restoring it and creating the difference between the starting 441 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 2: point and the restored point. They pay packages a credit 442 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 2: and they sell it as an offset. So I went 443 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 2: to visit. I went to visit last year a small 444 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 2: field called Puddington Moor in Devon in the southwest of England, 445 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 2: which was a field of pumpkins, I think or swedes. 446 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 2: It was a swede field, so it had been run 447 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 2: by a farmer that was supplying supermarkets. It had been 448 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 2: just pummeled with fertilizer and over farmed really for decades. 449 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 2: And so this young couple bought it. They took out 450 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 2: a mortgage to buy it. They are going to restore 451 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 2: it to the indigenous what's called calm grassland. The difference 452 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 2: there between the starting point so the endpoint, is what 453 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 2: creates the bio diversity credits which are sold to companies 454 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 2: that operate within that area and need to compensate for 455 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 2: their impacts. Another example which is going to be pitched 456 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 2: as a credit instead of an offset. I went to 457 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 2: visit an estate in Yorkshire where again they've got a 458 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 2: segment of land that's been destroyed by years of intensive 459 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 2: agriculture and they're going to restore it to what's mostly 460 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 2: wetlands in that area. And they're marketing those credits to 461 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 2: companies globally. So anyone who has an interest in nature, 462 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:34,919 Speaker 2: or perhaps as a part of their supply chain in 463 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 2: the UK, or for some other reason, wants to invest 464 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 2: in these credits, they can buy these credits and claim 465 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 2: to have made a nature positive investment. 466 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: After the break, what we can expect when COP sixteen 467 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: resumes in Rome next week. And if you've been enjoying 468 00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: this episode, please take a moment to rate and review 469 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It helps other 470 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: listeners find the show. As with all our reporting, Natasha, 471 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: this seems to be a pretty messy place to be 472 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: and perhaps that's why our reporting is valuable. But coming 473 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: back to COP despite the sense that it is not 474 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 1: the place that solves all problems, it does create the 475 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:29,120 Speaker 1: space for solutions. What is going to happen in Rome, 476 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: and then what happens in COPS seventeen, which is supposed 477 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: to be in Armenia next year. 478 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, So in Rome they're going to address the agenda 479 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 2: items that were left unresolved. The big one there is 480 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 2: the resource mobilization strategy, but they're also going to be 481 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 2: discussing ways to monitor progress because at the moment that's 482 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,719 Speaker 2: not actually very clear about how they can monitor and 483 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 2: report on progress against the Global bid Diversity Framework targets. 484 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 2: So on the resource mobilization point, I think the fund 485 00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 2: is still very much on the table. So that would 486 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:04,360 Speaker 2: be three days of intense negotiations around that item which 487 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 2: led to the collapse of CALI. So yeah, we'll see that, 488 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 2: and then looking forward to COP seventeen in Armenia, the 489 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 2: focus there is again going to be a review of 490 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 2: progress towards the implementation of the Global bio Diversity Framework. 491 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: Because all these countries that were supposed to bring a 492 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 1: plan for biodiversity not and maybe they will between now 493 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: in COPS seventeen. 494 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,959 Speaker 2: I think the expectation is that more countries will come 495 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 2: out with more national bi diversity action plans and that 496 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 2: there'll be more specific and developed there's also targets within 497 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 2: those and what will hopefully be agreed in Rome is 498 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 2: a way to monitor progress and that will all be 499 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 2: taken together in Armenia next year to assess progress. 500 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: More broadly, this was fun, Natasha, Natasha, There's a lot 501 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: of other coverage, so you should check out her stories, 502 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: which will link in the show notes. Thanks, thank you, 503 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: thank you for listening to Zero. And now for the 504 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: sound of the week. That's the sound of Indigenous musicians 505 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: back at the opening of cop sixteen in Kelly. If 506 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: you like this episode, please take a moment to rate 507 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: and reveal the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share 508 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: this episode with a friend or with someone who is 509 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: going to roam for work. You can get in touch 510 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: at zero port at bloomberg dot net. Zero's producer is 511 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: Mike Lera. Bloomberg's head of podcast is Stage Boum and 512 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: head of Talk is Brendan Yunan. A. Theme music is 513 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: composed by Wonderly Special thanks to Shan Chan and jessicab 514 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: I am a Stuart back up