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Speaker 1: Hi there.

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Speaker 2: This is Steve Fishman, creator of The Burden and most

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Speaker 2: recently Empire on Blood the Director's Cut. Today, we're featuring

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Speaker 2: an episode from another podcast. This one's called The Confessions

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Speaker 2: of Anthony ray Mundy. It's hosted by Mark Smirling, our

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Speaker 2: friend and an Emmy Award winning filmmaker who you might

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Speaker 2: recognize as one of the creators of The Jinks and

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Speaker 2: the podcasts Crooked City and Crimetown. This time, Mark investigates

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Speaker 2: the story of Anthony ray Mundy. He's a former mafia

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Speaker 2: enforcer who claims that Pope John Paul the First, who

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Speaker 2: died just thirty three days after being elected in nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy eight, didn't die of natural causes, even though the

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Speaker 2: Vatican said he did. Anthony says the Pope was assassinated

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Speaker 2: by the mob and that he witnessed it. I've listened

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Speaker 2: to the Confessions of Anthony Ramundy, and I'm sure you're

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Speaker 2: going to love it just like I. Here's the first episode, Genesis.

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Speaker 3: Where is the closest Catholic church to you right now?

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Speaker 3: I bet you could get there in less than twenty minutes,

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Speaker 3: whether at home or at work, in your car or

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Speaker 3: out for a walk, whether in a big city or

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Speaker 3: small town, any place in the world, either hemisphere, it

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Speaker 3: doesn't matter there's a Catholic church nearby. There are almost

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Speaker 3: a billion and a half Catholics in the world, a

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Speaker 3: population equal to China. Administering to all those Catholics are

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Speaker 3: more than four hundred thousand priests who report to more

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Speaker 3: than five thousand bishops, who report to around six hundred

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Speaker 3: and fifty archbishops and cardinals. And they all report to

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Speaker 3: one man, the Pope. He oversees a vast empire of wealth.

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Speaker 3: His church is one of the largest landowners in the world.

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Speaker 3: The pope has the power to influence world leaders. Popes

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Speaker 3: have changed the course of history. Anyway. I've been thinking

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Speaker 3: about all of this way too much lately. I have

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Speaker 3: a stack of books on the subject next to my bed.

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Speaker 3: It's been keeping me up at night. And it's all

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Speaker 3: because of this guy.

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Speaker 4: You.

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Speaker 5: I wish you guys could have seen this neighborhood years ago.

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Speaker 5: If you guys would have seen this neighborhood years ago,

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Speaker 5: usually I loved it.

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Speaker 3: Believe me, this is Anthony.

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Speaker 1: We're Monday, okay.

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Speaker 3: Anthony ram Mundy. Anthony has a story to tell about

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Speaker 3: a pope in the Catholic Church. And we'll get to that.

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Speaker 3: But today Anthony has invited my producer Zach and I

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Speaker 3: on a tour of his old neighborhood in Brooklyn, New York.

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Speaker 3: He wants to show us something.

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Speaker 5: I always just want to come in to call with me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to go. Yeah, when of you guys

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Speaker 1: are ready, whatever you want to do.

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Speaker 3: Anthony's a big guy, approaching seven years old, with slick backed,

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Speaker 3: salt and pepper hair, and he dresses like a gangster

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Speaker 3: because Anthony was a gangster. He says, he used to

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Speaker 3: be a made member of the Italian mafia in Brooklyn. Today,

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Speaker 3: Anthony's sporting a shiny black track suit, a gold bracelet,

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Speaker 3: and dark sunglasses. Think of Big Pussy from the Sopranos.

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Speaker 1: All right, is it ready?

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Speaker 5: Yep, We're ready.

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Speaker 1: We hop in.

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Speaker 3: Anthony's muscle car, a Dodge Challenger, all black.

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Speaker 1: That's good.

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Speaker 3: When Anthony grew up here in the nineteen fifties, this

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Speaker 3: was a working class neighborhood. He calls it South Brooklyn.

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Speaker 3: By the time I moved here in the early nineties,

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Speaker 3: people had started calling it Park Slope.

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Speaker 1: We slip right down there.

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Speaker 5: Call you in the carriage house. Yeah, oh wow, right

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Speaker 5: across you were really in the neighborhood.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, And the neighborhood has changed a lot over

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Speaker 3: the years. These days your kid will need to be

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Speaker 3: on a wait list to get into daycare. And everywhere

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Speaker 3: you look there seems to be an artisanal coffee shop

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Speaker 3: where you can buy a six dollars cup of coffee.

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Speaker 5: I was talking with somebody about it, say, Anthony's called progress.

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Speaker 5: Has everybody killed the neighborhood.

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Speaker 3: But one place hasn't changed, The local Catholic church, like

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Speaker 3: the one I got married in. I got married, but

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Speaker 3: the church was the one down on sixth Avenue, big,

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Speaker 3: big stone church, beautiful Catholic.

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Speaker 1: It might have been Santaugustine.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it might have been Sustins. And it turns out

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Speaker 3: that Saint Augustine's Church is where Anthony is taking us

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Speaker 3: right now.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's Sant Augustine's Church. That's the Stone church where.

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Speaker 2: I got married.

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Speaker 1: So weird.

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Speaker 5: What a small worlds I did my communion, dad, I

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Speaker 5: did my confirmation there.

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Speaker 3: Also, Anthony pulls into a parking spot.

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Speaker 5: Now Saint Augustine School is connected right onto it.

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Speaker 1: I show you.

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Speaker 3: He struggles out of his car. He's had some health

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Speaker 3: issues lately, so he walks slowly with the help of

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Speaker 3: a cane. He leads us towards the building behind the church,

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Speaker 3: Saint Augustine School.

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Speaker 5: See that right there, you see there's the open window

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Speaker 5: over there, and then right next to you see the

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Speaker 5: open windows.

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Speaker 3: Anthony has brought us to Saint Augustine's to tell us

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Speaker 3: a story about something that happened here. Not a crime

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Speaker 3: story about a mob hit or a famous heist, a

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Speaker 3: more personal story from when he was just seven years old.

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Speaker 1: That's where our class was at.

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Speaker 5: I was at the last window over here, one two three,

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Speaker 5: right up there.

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Speaker 3: Nine days before Christmas in nineteen sixty, Anthony was sitting

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Speaker 3: in his second grade classroom.

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Speaker 5: There was a big blackboard in front, and then there

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Speaker 5: was all the all the seats with the benches.

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Speaker 1: If you were bad, you had to sit near the window.

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Speaker 3: And that day Anthony was sitting by the window.

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Speaker 5: I remember it was in the morning. Missus Piccarelly, she's

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Speaker 5: writing something on the blackboard and we heard this explosion. Me.

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Speaker 5: I want to see what's on there. I want to

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Speaker 5: see what's there. It sounded like a rocket kept coming

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Speaker 5: and getting louder and louder.

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Speaker 3: And that's when Anthony says he saw something unbelievable, a

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Speaker 3: passenger jet flying by his classroom window so close. He

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Speaker 3: says he saw the passengers inside.

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Speaker 5: You heard people screaming on the plane. You can actually

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Speaker 5: hear people screaming. Oh yeah, you can hear him screaming.

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Speaker 5: And it hit the window and I got the glass

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Speaker 5: came in my face, that's how close it was.

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Speaker 1: That's when the building shook. The nuns caiming said, eybody's

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Speaker 1: gotta leave the build.

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Speaker 5: We have to leave the building. There was fire engines

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Speaker 5: all over the place. Alarms were going off. You couldn't

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Speaker 5: see the sun. You couldn't see the light of from

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Speaker 5: all the smoke. The sky was totally black.

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Speaker 6: In nineteen sixty, only a few days before Christmas, two

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Speaker 6: commercial airliners collide in the sky above New York City.

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Speaker 6: One plane carrying eighty four passengers falls on the park

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Speaker 6: Slope section of Brooklyns. Many thought that nearby Saint Augustine's School,

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Speaker 6: where seventeen hundred children were attending classes, had been bombed.

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Speaker 5: The jet fuel was coming down the block this way,

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Speaker 5: and you could see the snow actually melt that was

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Speaker 5: on fire.

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Speaker 1: When it came down.

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Speaker 5: It took out the pillar of fire church. That took

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Speaker 5: part of their move off. There was the laundromat, the

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Speaker 5: candy store, the funeral parlor, and there was fourteen Brownstones

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Speaker 5: that went out. I'll tell you there was a guy

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Speaker 5: I'll show you the spot who was selling Christmas trees

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Speaker 5: when the plane hit. They never found his body. The

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Speaker 5: ambulance that took me to the hospital, it was parked

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Speaker 5: over there, the ambulance. They looked at me and they

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Speaker 5: seen all the glass in my and then I see

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Speaker 5: they put another kid in the ambulance with me. This

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Speaker 5: kid was burnt so bad you did not know if

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Speaker 5: he was black or white. That's how bad he was burnt.

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Speaker 5: And his kid was still alive. He actually fell out

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Speaker 5: of the plane between six and seventh Avenue. He died

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Speaker 5: the next day.

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Speaker 3: And this is when Anthony takes a beat and his

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Speaker 3: story takes an unexpected turn.

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Speaker 5: Now, when they put me into the ambulance as I'm

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Speaker 5: going down, and I think you could think I'm crazy.

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Speaker 1: People think I'm crazy when they hear this. Whoever, I kept.

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Speaker 5: Telling them that I've seen somebody standing on the plane,

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Speaker 5: just to.

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Speaker 3: Be clear Anthony's saying that he saw a man riding

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Speaker 3: on top of a crashing plane.

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Speaker 5: First time I seen him on the plane standing on

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Speaker 5: the plane, cause I was looking at the window. The

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Speaker 5: second time I seen him was when they were bringing

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Speaker 5: me in the ambulance. He was walking down the block

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Speaker 5: and I kept telling him, Dabby is he is? He said,

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Speaker 5: who is the guy on the plane? They all thought

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Speaker 5: I was the guy on the plane. He just went

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Speaker 5: kept on going down the block and they faded away.

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Speaker 3: Anthony believes that the man he saw standing on that

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Speaker 3: plane and then walking down the street that day wasn't

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Speaker 3: a man at all.

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Speaker 5: That was death on the plane. I don't care what

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Speaker 5: anybody tells me. Where do you want to call him Debt?

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Speaker 5: Where do you want to call him? The angel of Debt?

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Speaker 5: And the Jewish religion they call him the Macho moves

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Speaker 5: they call him.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't a skeleton.

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Speaker 5: His skin was pulled so tight on his face that

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Speaker 5: you could see, like you know, like the bone, the structure,

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Speaker 5: the bones and everything. My mother and father they had

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Speaker 5: sent me to psychiatrists Jesus for what three years? My

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Speaker 5: father took me to psychiatrists in Manhattan Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn.

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Speaker 5: They all said the same thing. It's one or two

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Speaker 5: things happened. Either I had from the shock of the

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Speaker 5: plane that I put this in my head what I

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Speaker 5: supposedly seen, or they said he really seen it. That's

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Speaker 5: the only two edges they could give. Nobody could give

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Speaker 5: another answer. I'm telling I know what I saw.

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Speaker 3: As I've gotten to know Anthony, he's told me a

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Speaker 3: lot of stories like this. One story's rooted in truth,

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Speaker 3: there was a plane crash in park Slope back then,

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Speaker 3: but his stories often grow to biblical proportions. Death appears

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Speaker 3: to seven year old Anthony like one of the four

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Speaker 3: horsemen of the Apocalypse, only instead of the pale horse

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Speaker 3: Death rides in the Bible, Anthony's version of Death rides

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Speaker 3: a crashing airplane.

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Speaker 5: I know he's the one that's gonna come for me

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Speaker 5: one of the times when at nighttime comes, he's gonna

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Speaker 5: come and get me. It ain't gonna be my mother

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Speaker 5: or my father. No, it's gonna be him. I'm telling you,

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Speaker 5: it's gonna be him. When I go that much, I

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Speaker 5: don't know.

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Speaker 3: And Anthony tells another unbelievable story, one that he thinks

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Speaker 3: will come back to haunt him on Judgment Day. It's

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Speaker 3: the story that's been keeping me up at night about

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Speaker 3: corruption and murder at the highest level of one of

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Speaker 3: the world's Oh, this is the most powerful institutions, the Vatican.

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Speaker 5: You know what's going to happen to me when I die.

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Speaker 5: I'm going to go to heaven Gods. I'm gonna say, Noah,

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Speaker 5: fuck you, you killed one of my popes. You're talking

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Speaker 5: about killing a fucking pope.

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Speaker 3: I'm Mark Smirling And these are the confessions of Anthony

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Speaker 3: Ramundi just.

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Speaker 5: After Fast seven.

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Speaker 6: And is Lorian macmillan with the summary.

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Speaker 7: Of the news, John Poll thet is dead.

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Speaker 3: The public speculation that this death was not natural grow

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Speaker 3: by the minute. Men and women were heard shouting as

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Speaker 3: they passed the body.

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Speaker 5: Who has done this to you?

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Speaker 4: Who has murdered you?

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Speaker 1: When is a central bank not a central bank? When

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Speaker 1: is a.

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Speaker 2: Private bank public DNA, public bank, private, sound, mistief, arrious

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Speaker 2: and full of secrets?

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Speaker 1: Well that's the Vatican Bank.

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Speaker 5: The Vatican Bank over the last hundred years or so

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Speaker 5: is not being without scandal.

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Speaker 3: You know, certain dirty dealings, certainly money laundering.

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Speaker 8: If the mafia wished to bring some of their clean

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Speaker 8: money into Italy.

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Speaker 4: They used Vatican bank channels.

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Speaker 7: Luchani was contemplating cleaning up the Vatican Bank.

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Speaker 4: Well, obviously he passed away before he was able to

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Speaker 4: do it.

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Speaker 1: He only lasted thirty three days.

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Speaker 5: He may have seen the movie god Father three. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: it's sort of loosely based on what happened during that time.

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Speaker 1: You don't mess with the Mafia.

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Speaker 3: Chapter one Genesis. Let me tell you how I first

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Speaker 3: heard about Anthony Ramundi. A few weeks before that day

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Speaker 3: in Brooklyn, I got an email from a guy at

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Speaker 3: NBC Universal named Josh. He worked some podcasts there. It said, Hi, Mark,

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Speaker 3: we're green light fascinating series involving the Mafia and Vatican,

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Speaker 3: a deathbed confession from a mafia enforcer, and an alleged

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Speaker 3: papal assassination. It's the kind of story that I think

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Speaker 3: is right up your alley and would love to discuss.

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Speaker 3: I gave Josh a call, and that's when I learned

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Speaker 3: that Anthony had published a book about his life as

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Speaker 3: a made member of a New York mafia family. It's

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Speaker 3: called When the Bullet Hits the Bone subtitle The Incredible

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Speaker 3: and possibly True Stories of the Last mafia enforcer. In it,

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Speaker 3: Anthony puts himself in the center of mafia folklore. He

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Speaker 3: says he's related to Mafia Royalty, a Sicilian mobster named

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Speaker 3: Lucky Luciano, who many people believe founded American organized crime,

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Speaker 3: and Anthony says as a kid, he was close to

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Speaker 3: Lucky's partner, a guy named Meyer Lansky. Lansky was the

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Speaker 3: model for the character Hymen Roth in The Godfather Too,

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Speaker 3: And toward the end of his book, Anthony tells a

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Speaker 3: story about the murder of a pope. I'll be honest,

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Speaker 3: it's a really fun read. Then I check out Anthony online.

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Speaker 3: I find articles in tabloids from around the world, The

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Speaker 3: New York Post, The Daily Mail, the New Zealand Herald

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Speaker 3: with headlines like meet the mobster who says he helped

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Speaker 3: whack a pope. After he published his book, Anthony went

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Speaker 3: on kind of a publicity tour. Only instead of appearing

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Speaker 3: on the morning talk shows, Anthony did interviews on a

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Speaker 3: whole bunch of mafia fan YouTube channels. I never knew existed.

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Speaker 3: Your uncle was no ordinary, I mean he's one of

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Speaker 3: the most famous.

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Speaker 1: Oh, uncle Lucky.

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Speaker 3: Some of these videos got millions of views.

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Speaker 5: Uncle Lucky.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, this is Lucky Luciano for those of you who

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Speaker 8: haven't figured it out, and he's one of the most

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Speaker 8: famous gangsters.

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Speaker 5: Uncle Lucky was my grandmother's my father's mother, that was

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Speaker 5: her half brother.

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Speaker 3: In all of these interviews, Anthony sports his black track suit,

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Speaker 3: his gold chains, dark sunglasses, and he carries a huge

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Speaker 3: unlit cigar.

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Speaker 2: You said, uh, Lansky taught me so many ways of

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Speaker 2: shaking down a guy, but he also taught me a

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Speaker 2: lot of ways to actually kill a guy because Mile

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Speaker 2: Lansky was deadly.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, definitely, definitely. I had told me a lot

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Speaker 5: of things.

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Speaker 3: And these interviewers all ended up asking Anthony the same thing.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it's crazy with the hold the Pope stuff.

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Speaker 5: I mean basically what you're saying is the mob killed

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Speaker 5: the Pope.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I decided to call my producer Zach and make a

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Speaker 3: date for us to meet Anthony Ramundi for the first time.

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Speaker 3: Feel the guy out. See what's what.

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Speaker 1: It's in the corner of your mouth there? Yes, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to speak that. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: It's a sunny afternoon when Zach and I meet Anthony

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Speaker 3: in a conference room in Williamsburg, Brooklyn.

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Speaker 5: How you've been feeling some days ago, some days bad.

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Speaker 1: I got done with my chemo.

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Speaker 3: Anthony sporting his usual attires and the cigar.

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Speaker 5: It's crazy. Ever since I got the COVID, I haven't

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Speaker 5: been right. I got I was in the hospital for it.

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Speaker 5: I don't remember my first six days. They didn't think

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Speaker 5: I was gonna make it. Meanwhile, I had to get

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Speaker 5: two transfusions because my blood levels keep dropping. I wound

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Speaker 5: up getting an infection. Then they put the pacemaker in.

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Speaker 5: But it's like my father says. Well, my father used

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Speaker 5: to say, no matter what you're doing this world, you're

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Speaker 5: gonna pay a price. After he died, I realized what

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Speaker 5: he was talking about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what is he talking about?

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Speaker 5: It don't make a difference if he turns around upstairs

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Speaker 5: and says, yeah, you did this good, but I don't

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Speaker 5: like what you did here. Well, you're gonna have a

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Speaker 5: little bit of a problem.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 3: After Anthony talks about his latest health problems, I asked

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Speaker 3: him to start at the beginning when he was growing

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Speaker 3: up in Brooklyn.

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Speaker 5: Now, my grandfather had the house on Balton Street between

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Speaker 5: Third and Fourth Avenue. It was eight family, but his

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Speaker 5: only family living in dead there was like me, my

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Speaker 5: mother and my father, my grandfather, my grandmother, my aunt

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Speaker 5: Nanny and her husband May and Julian husband, uncle.

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Speaker 1: Frank and his wife.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, everything goes back to the old country.

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Speaker 3: By old country, Anthony means Sicily.

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Speaker 1: Now we had an uncle Ralph guy though Uncle Ralph

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Speaker 1: was a member of the Black Hand.

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Speaker 3: And by black Hand, Anthony is talking about the Sicilian mafia.

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Speaker 5: My grandfather, Frank Castle was, my grandfather Antonio was. They

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Speaker 5: were all schooled, these guys, and I'm telling you, seriously,

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Speaker 5: old school. Whatever they say they've done, they said, who

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Speaker 5: said they're killers?

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Speaker 1: And they killed this guy and that guy. To me,

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Speaker 1: it was my family. This is all I knew.

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Speaker 3: As Anthony goes on, I start to wonder if I'm

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Speaker 3: really looking at an old mobster or if this is

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Speaker 3: some kind of elaborate performance and I'm his captive audience.

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Speaker 8: But they put me with my cousin Mac because I

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Speaker 8: was getting into a lot of trouble. Anthony drops the name.

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Speaker 8: I recognized Mac as in you Macintosh, a notorious mob enforcer.

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Speaker 5: And he brought me down to the diplomat and Joe

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Speaker 5: Colombo came in one day, and Tom de Bella was

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Speaker 5: there because that was the Colombo family.

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Speaker 1: Scappy, everybody's there, so first time.

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Speaker 3: It quickly becomes clear that Anthony remembers every mobster he

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Speaker 3: ever met.

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Speaker 1: I saw Joe Shawana Mayo. They called him.

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Speaker 3: Yogi and their nicknames.

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Speaker 1: They called him Top because he was top. Sat what

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Speaker 1: he done. This guy they called him the garage.

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Speaker 5: They called him Catfish, Frankie, I forgot his last name,

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Speaker 5: but they call him Frankie blue Eyes.

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Speaker 1: In the Witness Protection program.

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Speaker 3: He remembers every spot in Brooklyn for all his stories

360
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Speaker 3: took place.

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Speaker 5: The Stabbor Club was on thirty Avenue between eighty Fish

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Speaker 5: and we went to Honey's garage. Honey had a place

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Speaker 5: on Cattle Street between thirty and seven. It was the

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Speaker 5: Desiree after Owl Club. Cousin Max says he was commanded,

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Speaker 5: says seventh Street and.

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Speaker 3: Street and Anthony got into a ton of trouble.

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Speaker 1: I got invested, My uncle, Frank got invested in. His

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Speaker 1: girlfriend got arrested, My uncle got represented Miami. He opens

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Speaker 1: up his jack and I see he grabs the gun.

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Speaker 1: I just picked him in and I just entered the

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Speaker 1: hole gun.

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Speaker 5: Okay on the school, they plug the headline on the

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Speaker 5: mother's cast and the guy with an adult maybe crazy.

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Speaker 1: If I ain't freaking stupid.

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Speaker 5: You're losing me.

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Speaker 1: So so this guy.

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Speaker 3: These stories fly by and I have a lot of questions,

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00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,040
Speaker 3: but before I can say anything, Anthony has moved on

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Speaker 3: to the next chapter.

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Speaker 5: So I'm at the house and my father says, she

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Speaker 5: had a call. That's amove. It goes from Italy.

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Speaker 3: It's the story we came here for folks.

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Speaker 1: Calling me from Italy. Her cousin Luigi. He's in the Vatican.

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Speaker 3: Back in the conference room in Brooklyn, Anthony Ramundi describes

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Speaker 3: how we first got involved in crimes with a Vatican.

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Speaker 3: His story starts in nineteen seventy five with a call

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Speaker 3: from another family member, a Catholic cardinal also named Ramundi.

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Speaker 3: Luigi Ramundi tell me about Luigi's actually.

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Speaker 5: Actually yeah, Luigi Vermundi. Yes, so he is in a

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00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 5: vacant he was. He was one of the guys that

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Speaker 5: was becoming a what do you call it?

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Speaker 1: The cardinals.

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00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,359
Speaker 3: He lived in the Vatican, and Anthony says the Cardinal

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Speaker 3: Ramondi had called him with an offer he couldn't refuse.

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Speaker 5: They got the forger from de' mafia from one of

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Speaker 5: the mafia guys. They got the stocks the at and

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Speaker 5: t Ibma.

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Speaker 3: According to Anthony, Luigi and some of his friends in

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Speaker 3: the Vatican were running a counterfeiting scam.

400
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Speaker 5: He goes, if you got somebody in the stock market,

401
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Speaker 5: I can send you a ton of stocks.

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Speaker 1: You keep your end, you give us our ends.

403
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Speaker 3: And they needed help selling these forged stocks in the

404
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Speaker 3: United States.

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Speaker 1: He says, yeah, we'll make a ton of money.

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Speaker 5: Because I was the guy that they were bringing up

407
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Speaker 5: in the family to be the gangster, you understand, and

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Speaker 5: they liked me. What the fact is, they loved my

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00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:11,200
Speaker 5: grandfather Antonio. Now he sends me a badge, one hundred

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Speaker 5: thousand dollars, certificates and stocks.

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Speaker 1: Every one of those a forged met.

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Speaker 3: With the help of some of his mafia connected friends,

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Speaker 3: Anthony says, he gave the forged stocks to shady brokers

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Speaker 3: who then sold them to unwitting investors.

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Speaker 5: They were bringing them a ton of money, and what

416
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,920
Speaker 5: we're doing was sending the money overseas to Italy.

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00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,720
Speaker 3: Now and Anthony says that his cousin told him that

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Speaker 3: the counterfeiting scam went right to the top of the Vatican.

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Speaker 5: So now I find out that Paul Paul the Six

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Speaker 5: knew about this.

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Speaker 3: They're working together and everybody was making a lot of

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Speaker 3: money until Anthony got some news about one of his

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Speaker 3: connected friends.

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Speaker 1: And guess what he done. He fucking rated us all out.

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Speaker 5: Scam was over at that point, Oh yeah, scam was over.

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Speaker 3: According to Anthony, his partners in the Vatican shut the

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00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 3: scam down, and the cops never showed up at his door.

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Speaker 3: Then just three years later.

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Speaker 5: What happens is Pope pulled the six diys, Pope John

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Speaker 5: Pulled the First gets in. Now he becomes the Pope.

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Speaker 5: They go through the whole process of boom, okay, here's

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Speaker 5: the Pope.

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Speaker 3: Anthony says that Pope John Paul the First was a

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Speaker 3: very different kind of pope, an honest one.

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Speaker 9: Pope John Pulled the First said, and neither his words

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Speaker 9: everybody and anybody who was involved in the stock fraud

437
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 9: and the scam, I am defrocking them and excommunicating them

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Speaker 9: from the Church, which meant now they're falling under the

439
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Speaker 9: Italian law.

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Speaker 3: And that's when Anthony says, his grandfather got another call

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Speaker 3: from the Vatican.

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Speaker 5: My grandfather, he goes, we got to give it the Pope.

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Speaker 1: We got to kill him.

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Speaker 5: What do you fucking crate killed the pop Are you

445
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 5: out of your fucking mind? Excuse my language, But he said,

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Speaker 5: let me tell you something.

447
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 1: He goes.

448
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,920
Speaker 5: For as long as we've had popes, we've been killing

449
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,239
Speaker 5: pope's whoiut history. If we didn't like him, we kill

450
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,120
Speaker 5: him and we put our own guy in there. I said,

451
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,479
Speaker 5: Jesus Christ, they're gonna kill a pope. I said, i'm

452
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 5: a said, good luck with it. My grandfather goes, no,

453
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:22,400
Speaker 5: he goes, you gotta go with him.

454
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: I gotta go with him. I'm not killing no fucking

455
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,640
Speaker 1: Paul Papa. I mean, I don't care.

456
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 5: On the streets, on the street, your loan, shock and shadlock,

457
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 5: and you got a problem with the guy.

458
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 1: The guy gets whacked. Who gives a shit?

459
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 5: You know we're talking about the pope. This is the

460
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 5: guy who couldn't like supposedly directly talks to God. But

461
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 5: my grandfather turned around and says, you got my grandson,

462
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 5: I love you.

463
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 1: You gotta go. Just when he said it like that,

464
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 1: I knew I had to go.

465
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 3: A few days later, Anthony says, the mastermind of the

466
00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,439
Speaker 3: entire conspiracy showed up at his door is.

467
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 5: Paul Jacob Marsinkus, who is the head of the Vatican Bank.

468
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 5: I said, okay, I said, what am I going there for?

469
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,199
Speaker 5: Because show us how to.

470
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 1: Take him out in a nice way.

471
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 3: Anthony says that reluctantly he flew with Marcinkus to Rome

472
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 3: to come up with a plan to take out the

473
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 3: new pope in a nice way.

474
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 5: These guys are nothing like New York guys. Let me

475
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 5: tell you, he says, Now, how do we you know,

476
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,680
Speaker 5: how do we put him at rest? We want you

477
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 5: to tell us how we can do it without pain

478
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 5: and without him suffering. And you're going to love this,

479
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 5: and you are going to be our uh what is

480
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:57,919
Speaker 5: that word to use our witness before God? I'm going

481
00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 5: to be your witness before God? What the fuck you

482
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 5: talk about? When we die, God is going to say

483
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 5: you killed one of my popes. He never suffered, He

484
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 5: went peacefully. And then we can stay in they called

485
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 5: we'll call the paradise, we'll call it every but we can.

486
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 1: Stay with God.

487
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 5: And I'm saying to myself, how did I get into

488
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 5: this mess? I said, what's his whole schedule? He goes here,

489
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 5: he goes dare God at nighttime. He always liked tea,

490
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 5: but he liked it extra sweet, and it's okay. I says,

491
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,439
Speaker 5: here's what we can do. I says, can you get

492
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 5: liquid value? He says, yeah, all right, bring him his

493
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 5: tea and you have liquid valume in it.

494
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,200
Speaker 1: But the tea's got to be really sweet. He goes,

495
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 1: he likes it really.

496
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 5: Sweet because you know, liquid volume doesn't have a taste,

497
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 5: but sometimes it's a little hint that this doesn't taste right.

498
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 3: According to Anton, the volume would put the Pope in

499
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 3: a deep sleep so he wouldn't feel what was coming.

500
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:09,439
Speaker 5: Next, I says, can you get cyanide? Potassium cyanide. If

501
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 5: you have a high level of potassium in your body,

502
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 5: you're gone.

503
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 1: You're dead.

504
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 3: That night, Anthony says, the Pope went to bed as

505
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 3: he usually did, after he had his tea.

506
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 5: The Pope is out like a light. The captain of

507
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 5: the Swiss guards comes over. They shake hands, and I

508
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 5: can see the thing bottle.

509
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,880
Speaker 3: And now Anthony says that it was Paul Jacob Marcinkus's

510
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 3: job to get the deadly deed done.

511
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 5: He gets the bottle, he opens it up, fills up

512
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 5: the eye dropper, puts it like this in between it

513
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 5: and just squeeze it once, put the back on, walks

514
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 5: out and closed the door. Now we're standing there, all right,

515
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 5: he says, the guy's got to come back and check

516
00:26:55,080 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 5: on him, to popish it all. A sudden, doctors, this one,

517
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 5: that one comes over. They examine him. They're doing a

518
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 5: like CPR on his chest. They're doing this to everything.

519
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 5: Pope is dead. Yeah, I had to stay. I had

520
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 5: to stay co I had to.

521
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: See this to be a witness before God for them.

522
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 1: Now he's dead.

523
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 3: At this point, I look over at Zach and notice

524
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 3: the Florida ceiling window beyond him. It's dark outside. I

525
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 3: glance at my phone and see a screen filled with

526
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 3: miscalls and text messages, and I realized we've been talking

527
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 3: for five hours. But Anthony just keeps going. It's starting

528
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 3: to feel like he's auditioning for a role he's always wanted.

529
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 1: I have to call it for yes.

530
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,679
Speaker 3: As we leave, we share the elevator to the lobby.

531
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: You have to lift this up and push it down

532
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: before we.

533
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 3: Reach the ground floor. Anthony takes out an old switchblade

534
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 3: and hands it to me.

535
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 5: It's a switchblade that belongs to my uncle, Lucky.

536
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 3: As in Lucky Luciano, one of the most famous wise

537
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 3: guys of all time.

538
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,640
Speaker 5: That Ti, it's not his names in Marenzano's with the tip.

539
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 3: Of the blade is broken off. He says it's from

540
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 3: when Lucky stabbed a guy and it broke off in

541
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 3: his ribs. I snapped the knife closed and hand it

542
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 3: back to him. As we exit the elevator and walk

543
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 3: out of the building, Zack and I stand in the

544
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 3: dark watching Anthony limp away down the sidewalk toward a

545
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 3: waiting black car. The next day, I start looking for

546
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 3: someone who can vouch for Anthony. Anthony says he was

547
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 3: a member of the Columbo crime family. There aren't many

548
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,719
Speaker 3: of those guys left, but I managed to find one

549
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,239
Speaker 3: guy high up in the Columbos and I write him

550
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 3: a letter. It wasn't too hard to find him. He's

551
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 3: serving a life sentence in federal prison. I write, I'm

552
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 3: researching the connection between organized crime and the Vatican. My

553
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 3: interest begins with a possible associate of yours, Anthony Ramundi,

554
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 3: who wrote a book in which he claims that he

555
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 3: was a member of the Columbo crime family and that

556
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 3: he helped murder a Pope. I was sure this guy

557
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 3: would know you. Macintosh, the Columbo enforcer Anthony says, was

558
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 3: his cousin. So I mentioned mac in the letter. Then

559
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 3: I make my pitch. You may be the only guy

560
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 3: around who could tell me who Anthony really is or isn't.

561
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 3: So I'm asking for your help. I seal the envelope,

562
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 3: address it not forgetting the inmate number, and drop it

563
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 3: in the mailbox.

564
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 4: Hey, Mark, what's up? Hey, listen, I'm gonna record this

565
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 4: phone call. Okay oo okay.

566
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 3: A week or so later, I call Zach.

567
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 4: I got some news. So remember I sent a letter

568
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 4: to Oh, yeah, the guy in the Columbo family. Yeah,

569
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 4: he texted me from prison.

570
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 3: Apparently gangster's context from prison.

571
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 4: Now, yeah, apparently they have phoned in prison. Can you

572
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 4: read it?

573
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 7: He says, As a small courtesy, I'm replying to request

574
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 7: received six six twenty three.

575
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 4: I do not recall the person you mentioned.

576
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 3: At first, the guy texted back that he had no

577
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 3: memory of Anthony Ramundi. But as I predicted, he did

578
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 3: know you McIntosh, and he remembered that you had a

579
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 3: cousin named Anthony. After a few back and forth, I

580
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 3: realized that the Anthony this guy remembers is not Anthony Ramundi.

581
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 3: Then he asked me if I know Anthony's nickname. He says,

582
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 3: back then, everybody had a nickname.

583
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 5: Okay.

584
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 7: So then I looked through Anthony's book and found his

585
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 7: nickname back when he was in the Columbo Crime Family,

586
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 7: and it was Pluto. So I write back that Anthony's

587
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 7: nickname was Pluto, and he writes back to me, yes,

588
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 7: I found out that was who you were referring to.

589
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 7: I was thinking of another cousin to Macintosh. Obviously he

590
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 7: knows who Pluto is.

591
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely. So he's kind of an a roundabout way

592
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 4: of saying two days he's saying, yes, I remember Anthony Raymundy,

593
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 4: and yes he was a cousin to Hugh McIntosh exactly.

594
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 4: That's something that is I guess you're not you're not convinced.

595
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 7: No, no, But then he wrote me back he says,

596
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 7: as I'm not a fan of any books on such

597
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 7: a topic because most are inaccurate to various degrees. I

598
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 7: cannot wish you any type of luck or success in

599
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 7: your endeavor.

600
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 4: Well, it's kind of intense. Maybe just remindy podcast gets

601
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 4: me killed.

602
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 3: Later that night, this guy sent me one final text message.

603
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 3: It simply said, I do request that you do not

604
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 3: contact me again for any reason.

605
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 5: Stay safe.

606
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 3: Next time. On the Confessions of Anthony Ramundi, we learn

607
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 3: a lot more about Anthony.

608
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 5: Joey mate the man, and he just started to get

609
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 5: wiser and wiser, and why they're doing more and more

610
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 5: and more, and he wound up with them.

611
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 1: What can I say? Do you remember your sinking Udo?

612
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 3: And we learn a little about Pope John Paul.

613
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 5: The first huge mount claimer.

614
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 4: Oh was he really?

615
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: Yeah?

616
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 6: He scaled his last was it a mountain outside of

617
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 6: Trento about six or seven months before he died?

618
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: So he was a fit guy, right.

619
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 3: The Confessions of Anthony Ramundi is a ust audio and

620
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 3: truth media podcast in partnership with Clockwork Films. The show

621
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 3: was produced by Lexa Burke, Kenny Cuziak, and Kevin shep

622
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 3: Zach Saint Lewis is our senior producer. Mark Smirling That's

623
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 3: Me is your host and story editor. Executive producers are

624
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 3: Josh Block from USG Audio, Jamie Cohen, Naomi Harvey and

625
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 3: Rob Huxley from Clockwork Films and Me Mark Smirling. Scott

626
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 3: Curtis is our production manager. Production support from Josh La

627
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 3: Longi at USG, Audio fact checking by Donnie Solimon, sound

628
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 3: design and mixing by Kenny Cuziak. Music by Universal Production,

629
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 3: Music Marmoset and Kenny Cuziak. Our title track is Big

630
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 3: Fish by Kenny Cuziak. Legal review by Linda Steinmann and

631
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 3: Abigail Overdale at Davis Wright Tremaine. If you've enjoyed the

632
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 3: Confessions of Anthony Ramundi, leave us a review on iTunes.

633
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 3: It really helps other people find the show, and thanks

634
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 3: for listening.