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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Indie rock band Not a Serf first hit big on

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Speaker 2: college radio in ninety six with their driving guitar forward

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Speaker 2: song Popular. The band had started playing together four years

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Speaker 2: earlier while attending college in Vermont, but they're perhaps best

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Speaker 2: known as a New York City band where their lead

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Speaker 2: singer and primary songwriter, Matthew Kaus came of age. Kus

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Speaker 2: is known as a vulnerable and often reflective songwriter who

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Speaker 2: tackles everything from social anxiety to politics in his work.

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Speaker 2: Not a Serf's latest album, Moon Mir is the band's

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Speaker 2: tenth studio album, and it's every bit as introspective and

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Speaker 2: at times hard hitting as ever. On today's episode, Bruce

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Speaker 2: Helm talks to Matthew Kabs about growing up on Manhattan's

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Speaker 2: Upper West Side in a house filled with baroque music

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Speaker 2: and how he thinks some of the classical instrumentation may

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Speaker 2: have influenced his own writing. Matthew also recalls the time

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Speaker 2: Not a Serf backed up Joey Ramone and played a

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Speaker 2: full Ramone set at Coney Island High Plus. He performs

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Speaker 2: two songs from Not a Serf's latest album, moon Mer

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Speaker 2: Forest Live. This is broken record Liner notes for the

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Speaker 2: Digital Age I'm justin Ritchman. Here's Bruce headlam with Matthew Cars.

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Speaker 1: This a new propeller.

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Speaker 3: Turning up by. There's a whooful spinning digging a saw grace.

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Speaker 3: There's growing menu of preanu mistakes, same old ground I've

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Speaker 3: always walked on. Now they call it face dopy free.

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Speaker 3: You won't be replaced, don'py.

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Speaker 1: Free, you won't bearing. There's a new day coming. We

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Speaker 1: don't know its name.

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Speaker 3: There's new methods bruin. Some will be the same. There's

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Speaker 3: growing feeling going down the drain. Same old ground I've

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Speaker 3: always walked on. There's always new pain.

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Speaker 1: Don't be fred you will belted. Don't bet you will belt.

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Speaker 3: There's a brando flavor, a seat again, its taste. There's

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Speaker 3: a brand new picture. Color has gone to waste.

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Speaker 1: There's a growing feeling nobody is chased.

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Speaker 3: Same old ground I've always walked on. Sliding in the lake.

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Speaker 3: You felt a bright white law. You gave it a name. Man,

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Speaker 3: you said a prize. Okay, then may be a guy

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Speaker 3: and they love you with all the hall. But there's

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Speaker 3: no place underground.

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Speaker 4: There is no devil has We're alone.

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Speaker 1: But you are the door prize. Watch it go it's.

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Speaker 3: Twilin We're alone, but you are the door prize.

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Speaker 1: Watch it go. It's lovely twil.

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Speaker 5: Matthew cause, thank you so much from not a Surf

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Speaker 5: coming in to talk about your new album Moon Mirror. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: and we have lots to talk about. Great and I

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Speaker 5: wanted to get to that song, so we're going to

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Speaker 5: start with it. You did, Okay, tell me about that song.

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Speaker 6: Well, I started writing it a long time ago. You know,

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Speaker 6: sometimes start something and finish it right away, but sometimes

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Speaker 6: you know, write half and put it away for a

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Speaker 6: few years. And I was writing this one when Trump

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Speaker 6: was running for office the first time, and I he

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Speaker 6: and Mago, which maybe at the time wasn't exactly called that,

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Speaker 6: but that feeling seemed to me like a like a

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Speaker 6: giant cruise ship propeller turning up the water and destabilizing things.

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Speaker 6: And then when I got to the line, don't be

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Speaker 6: afraid you won't be replaced, I was a bit nervous

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Speaker 6: about it because what I was thinking about was people

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Speaker 6: who have a demographic paranoia, who are afraid that they'll

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Speaker 6: be replaced by another race, or immigrants in general, you know,

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Speaker 6: And I was thinking, in very simple terms, you are

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Speaker 6: alive and you will live out your life. You can't

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Speaker 6: be replaced, you know, the way like jealousy doesn't help,

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Speaker 6: this fear isn't going to help anybody's life, you know,

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Speaker 6: and maybe that's not the point of it. Anyway, of

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Speaker 6: that fear, you know, it's a road to blame, to

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Speaker 6: blame other people for whatever you have going on, and

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Speaker 6: then a road also to anger as a relief, you know.

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Speaker 6: I think anger is a relief to people. Blame is

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Speaker 6: a relief to people because then you don't have to

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Speaker 6: feel your own troubles. But anyway, I was nervous about

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Speaker 6: it because it seemed like it was flirting with sympathy,

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Speaker 6: which I wouldn't want to be accused of. But I

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Speaker 6: think I'm more thinking about just humanity. You know, if

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Speaker 6: people feel heard, sometimes they can let their defenses drop

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Speaker 6: a little bit. I've had the experience of a couple

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Speaker 6: of times, at least maybe three, where on Facebook or

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Speaker 6: something I'd said something vaguely political or overtly political, and

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Speaker 6: somebody had commented in an aggressive way, you know, from

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Speaker 6: say a maga point of view, for example, and other

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Speaker 6: friends of mine would then you know, fight with them,

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Speaker 6: and I found myself these two or three times, talking

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Speaker 6: to them very calmly, and then taking it into private

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Speaker 6: messaging and spending two hours just talking. And what I

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Speaker 6: did find was that each time the person said at

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Speaker 6: the end, you know, I was surprised. I was used

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Speaker 6: to democrats yelling at me. I thought everybody would yell,

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Speaker 6: you know, So there's this of course, there's a lot

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Speaker 6: of civility lacking, but also the sort of illusion that

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Speaker 6: it doesn't exist or something. Those are the ideas I

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Speaker 6: was playing around with with it. And then Mark Pellington,

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Speaker 6: who directed a video that's I think it's pretty great

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Speaker 6: for it. He'd done a video for a song called

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Speaker 6: just Wait on our Last record and he has to

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Speaker 6: hear it, and I sent him the record and he

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Speaker 6: really zeroed in on that song. And what he's really

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Speaker 6: zeroed in on also was the sort of understory that

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Speaker 6: I was also feeling at time that once I started

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Speaker 6: seeing those lines, I'm like, that's about AI, or it

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Speaker 6: feels like that's what it's about. Also, you know, when

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Speaker 6: lyrics sort of matched two meanings, and he zeroed in

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Speaker 6: on that and absolutely thought that's what it was about,

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Speaker 6: which I thought was great because it just gave it

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Speaker 6: another dimension. And there's a great podcast I like called

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Speaker 6: Soda Jerker and Lloyd Cole was on it, and one

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Speaker 6: of his sort of best practices for songwriting was that

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Speaker 6: he said, don't be at all attached to the meaning

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Speaker 6: that you intended. Be okay, be at peace with any interpretation,

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Speaker 6: which I think is really good advice.

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Speaker 5: You know, well, I'm interested that it started as a

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Speaker 5: more overtly political song. Yeah, but I didn't take that.

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Speaker 5: And when you said you didn't want to betray any sympathy,

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Speaker 5: I found those lines incredibly sympathetic.

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Speaker 7: Oh good.

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Speaker 5: Not just about AI, but I think that I think

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Speaker 5: there's a feeling in society that people are so much

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Speaker 5: more connected, yeah, through media, and yet for that reason

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Speaker 5: you feel, yeah, people feel more expendable.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm glad you heard it that way.

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Speaker 6: And I guess I was speaking very specifically about sympathy

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Speaker 6: for white supremacists. That was the thing I was uncomfortable with,

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Speaker 6: but sympathy for people absolutely. And I also find that's

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Speaker 6: an experience that I have sometimes when there's a certain meaning,

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Speaker 6: sitting alone in my room and singing something and then

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Speaker 6: to an audience, what is the communal feeling? And I

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Speaker 6: think the sympathy for each other that we need so

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Speaker 6: much of in any way to express it feels good

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Speaker 6: or valuable.

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Speaker 5: Well, it's a terrific song on a really great album.

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Speaker 7: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 5: That I guess Rolling Stone just said is your best

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Speaker 5: in maybe the best of your career, which is you've

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Speaker 5: had a long that's almost thirty years. That's pretty good.

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Speaker 7: I haven't seen that review yet. I just got a

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Speaker 7: text about it. Okay, Well, I'm very pleased to hear

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Speaker 7: that's what it says.

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Speaker 5: Your last record was Never Not Together, which on the

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Speaker 5: surface felt a little more experimental choral intro and a

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Speaker 5: spoken intro in another song. This one feels kind of

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Speaker 5: more direct and new propeller aside, a little more joyful.

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Speaker 5: And it's got that great sound that you have perfected.

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Speaker 7: Oh thank you tell me because it is such.

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Speaker 5: A distinctive sound. How do you get that? How do

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Speaker 5: you take that song? You go into the studio and

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Speaker 5: I'll even ask for the boring details of how you

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Speaker 5: set it up and how you how you're recording. How

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Speaker 5: do you get that that great not a surf sound?

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Speaker 6: Part of I guess part of any band's sound is

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Speaker 6: like what the rhythm section feels like and Iron Daniel,

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Speaker 6: where the forever members of the band have a certain

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Speaker 6: vibe together. So that's part of it. I think it's

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Speaker 6: Guitar layering is a thing. I borrowed a four track

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Speaker 6: from somebody when I was fifteen and sat down with

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Speaker 6: my WHO songbook and recorded a couple of songs, two

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Speaker 6: guitars doing the exact same thing and two vocals doing

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Speaker 6: the exact same thing. And I became immediately hooked on

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Speaker 6: double tracking, which has led to triple tracking, etc.

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Speaker 7: Just take it a bit further, and.

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Speaker 6: I guess I really like the sound of a few

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Speaker 6: guitars doing the exact same thing, so it becomes a

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Speaker 6: sort of super nature, you know. And certainly when you

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Speaker 6: double track yourself doing something impossible, And that's why siblings

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Speaker 6: sounds so special. I think when siblings sing together, there's

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Speaker 6: the fact that the grain matches so well.

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Speaker 5: The brother sounds yes, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 6: And so when one person does it, it kind of

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Speaker 6: sounds fictional.

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Speaker 7: You know, you're you're doing something that doesn't.

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Speaker 6: Exist, but maybe it sounds Maybe that's the supermagic of

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Speaker 6: the elderly brothers. They sound impossible too, and it's impossibly

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Speaker 6: beautiful in their case, so that and just trying to

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Speaker 6: fill it up a little bit. I'm always chasing the

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Speaker 6: high of the first time I had shivers hearing a song,

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Speaker 6: and I remember it was She's So Cold by the

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Speaker 6: rolling Stones on a little battery powered FM radio under

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Speaker 6: my pillow while sleeping in a tent in the summer.

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Speaker 6: We were working in our house and there was no

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Speaker 6: room for us kids in the house, and I remember

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Speaker 6: that shiver, And you know, I'm just trying to get excited,

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Speaker 6: or chase excitement, or chase pleasures. It's like pleasure seeking

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Speaker 6: in a way. You know, what sound is going to

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Speaker 6: feel really blissful to me, you know, And I would

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Speaker 6: never claim it's it.

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Speaker 7: Is blissful in an objective way. I just mean to me.

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Speaker 5: So, how many guitar tracks, for example, would New Propeller have, Oh.

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Speaker 6: In the intro, maybe as few as two, just playing

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Speaker 6: just playing this, but with a pick two electrics and

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Speaker 6: probably two acoustics. So there you go, four playing the

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Speaker 6: exact same thing, and then this.

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Speaker 7: You know, that's probably three or four electrics. So it's

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Speaker 7: not crazy. We don't change mixers every record.

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Speaker 6: We've used some of the same John Anniello, who's a

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Speaker 6: New Yorker who's now in North Carolina. John Goodmanson from

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Speaker 6: Seattle mixed this record. He produced Lucky in its entirety.

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Speaker 6: He did a couple of songs on the way It's

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Speaker 6: a Gift. He did a few on if I had

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Speaker 6: a high fi. When you hear something again and again,

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Speaker 6: you almost become too sensitive to it. And when he

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Speaker 6: sent the first mixes, I actually thought they were over crispy,

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Speaker 6: too much, and.

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Speaker 7: I'm saying, sorry, John, this is just all hyped, you know.

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Speaker 6: And in fact they were totally perfect, and I think

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Speaker 6: they're really beautiful and super well done.

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Speaker 7: But sometimes you get a little too close to.

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Speaker 5: It when you get a tape like that back, the

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Speaker 5: mixed back, do you like you listen to it in

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Speaker 5: one room, to go to other rooms, to go to

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Speaker 5: your car.

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Speaker 6: If I'm nervous about hearing it, I'll put it on

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Speaker 6: I have a little home studio. I'll put it on

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Speaker 6: my little home studio and hit play and go to

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Speaker 6: the other room. You know, you know, like when you

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Speaker 6: open an email you're afraid of Yes, you're kind of

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Speaker 6: you're ready to shut the screen.

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Speaker 7: Are you looking through you know, through a gap? In

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Speaker 7: your fingers.

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Speaker 5: We just had crowded house in here. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 5: think Neil Finn said something of it. Sometimes the songs

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Speaker 5: just sound better in the next room.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, totally.

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Speaker 5: And you're right, You're like it has that kind of

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Speaker 5: magic quality.

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Speaker 6: If I think that I'm tripping, I guess what I

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Speaker 6: mean is if I think I'm being paranoid about something,

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Speaker 6: or having circular thoughts or obsessing or something, very often

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Speaker 6: I'll just like put in earbuds and take a long

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Speaker 6: walk and listen to it a bunch of times until

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Speaker 6: whatever weird feelings I was having disappear. And it's like

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Speaker 6: walking to objectivity, Like I have to walk out the

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Speaker 6: overthinking or the panic or something.

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Speaker 5: There's an old Latin phrase It's solved by walking.

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Speaker 7: I can't.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, just you go for a walk.

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Speaker 7: Wonderful.

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Speaker 2: After quick break, we'll be back with more from Not

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Speaker 2: a Serf's Matthew Cars.

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Speaker 5: So let's go back to the beginning. Yeah, you grew

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Speaker 5: up in New York, right, that's right, Okay, where'd you

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Speaker 5: grow up?

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Speaker 6: I grew up on eighty first in Lexington. My parents

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Speaker 6: taught at Hunter College, so they wanted to get an

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Speaker 6: apartment near there. My dad was a philosophy professor, and

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Speaker 6: my mom was in French at first but then moved

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Speaker 6: on to comparative literature and also English, and now at

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Speaker 6: ninety one, has been an art has story and for

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Speaker 6: quite a few years.

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Speaker 5: So did you grow up in a was it a

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Speaker 5: musical family.

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Speaker 7: Only in fandom?

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Speaker 6: My father had been kind of promising at piano, but

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Speaker 6: he grew up in a fundamentalist Christian cult in England

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Speaker 6: called the Exclusive Brethren or the Plymouth Brethren, and he

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Speaker 6: wasn't allowed to play anything but hymns, and he felt

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Speaker 6: constricted by that and sort of moved on. And my

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Speaker 6: mom had played a little bit, but they they were

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Speaker 6: fairly obsessive listeners to baroque music, and in fact, to

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Speaker 6: one record in particular, which I was so glad that

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Speaker 6: I came around to asking my dad about that. I

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Speaker 6: would think I was in my thirties, and I said,

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Speaker 6: I know it was mostly back in the house, but

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Speaker 6: it's with anything in particular we listened to because his

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Speaker 6: you know, it's overwhelming, there's so much work, and he said, yes,

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Speaker 6: ten fifty two. So I went and found it's b BWM.

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Speaker 6: There are three letters, and then there's a number, and

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Speaker 6: that's that's the way Bach works are classified. And anyway,

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Speaker 6: I knew every note it was. They must have played

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Speaker 6: it so often because I felt like I could see

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Speaker 6: the dust on the coffee table, you know. It was

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Speaker 6: so brought me back to Saturday mornings Tuesday nights, like

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Speaker 6: they must have played it all the time.

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Speaker 5: And did any melodic lines or harmony crept their way

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Speaker 5: into your.

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Speaker 6: I wouldn't know how to say that. But Phil Peterson,

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Speaker 6: who played strings on the one you want on this record,

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Speaker 6: and who's played all the strings on the last three

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Speaker 6: or four albums of ours, we were talking about that

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Speaker 6: and he said he heard something baroque in some of

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Speaker 6: my melodies, which I thought was a kind of a

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Speaker 6: thrilling thing to hear, even though I don't even know

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Speaker 6: how to interpret it. No, Like I don't even know

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Speaker 6: you know in fact, what that means. But I guess

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Speaker 6: I liked hearing that.

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Speaker 7: It's a nice thought.

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Speaker 5: And then was you mentioned hearing She's so cold by

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Speaker 5: the stones? Yes, getting that chill?

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Speaker 7: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: Had you started playing music by that point?

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Speaker 7: Yes.

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Speaker 6: My mother's older sister, peg Garson passed away a few

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Speaker 6: years ago.

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Speaker 7: She had bought a guitar for my dad.

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Speaker 6: In the sixties, and he wasn't interested, so she put

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Speaker 6: it in the closet. And then when I was eleven,

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Speaker 6: she pulled it out and asked me if i'd like

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Speaker 6: to play it, and she showed me one chord E major,

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Speaker 6: and I went into the other room and played that

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Speaker 6: chord for an hour.

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Speaker 7: I was so thrilled.

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Speaker 6: And I hadn't yet discovered the ramones, which I would

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Speaker 6: a bit later, but just just doing that over and over,

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Speaker 6: and then I thought, what if I move it?

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Speaker 7: I'll move it up. What if I go this way? Oh?

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Speaker 7: What's that? That's interesting? What if I move it over here? Oh?

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Speaker 7: So I moved this one shape? Yeah, yeah, and yeah.

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Speaker 6: So I started picking up then, and then when I

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Speaker 6: was sort of thirteen and fourteen, then I started playing

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Speaker 6: it a lot more often.

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Speaker 5: Was there a band that inspired that or the Yeah?

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Speaker 6: Well, my formative musical moment was when my best friend,

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Speaker 6: Philip Platel was his name. They lived near us, and

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Speaker 6: I went to his house every day after school for

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Speaker 6: years and years and years, and there was a real

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Speaker 6: sweetness to our relationship, and you know, sometimes when it

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Speaker 6: was time for me to go home, he'd walk me

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Speaker 6: home the three blocks to my house, and then I'd

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Speaker 6: say I'll walk you home, and then we turned around

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Speaker 6: and walked to his house and he said I'll walk

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Speaker 6: you home, and we'd do that a few times. He

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Speaker 6: had an older brother who went to boarding school, so

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Speaker 6: I didn't see very often, but I always thought he was

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Speaker 6: really cool. He had these really interesting posters in his

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Speaker 6: room and seemed like a lovely guy. And one day

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Speaker 6: he was home from school and he when we were thirteen,

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Speaker 6: and he said, you guys want to come into my

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Speaker 6: room and listen.

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Speaker 7: To some music. Yeah?

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Speaker 6: Absolutely, So we went and sat on his bed and

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Speaker 6: he played us with no comment, front to back, three

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Speaker 6: entire albums, Ramon's Rocket to Russia, Velvet Underground, Loaded and

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Speaker 6: Talking Heads Remained in Light those three and it was

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Speaker 6: I sometimes get misty thinking about it. It was so overwhelming.

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Speaker 6: I was so interested and thrilled and knocked out. And

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Speaker 6: it was funny. I mean, the remote romone songs were funny,

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Speaker 6: really just rhythmically exciting moments sounds I didn't understand, you.

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Speaker 7: Know, like Remain in Light. I can't remember which were the.

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Speaker 6: Tracks, but there are a couple where it's a series

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Speaker 6: of like impossible, sounds like an emotional computer or something,

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Speaker 6: you know. And then a kid at school, a new kid,

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Speaker 6: gave me a cass head of Tommy, and I became

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Speaker 6: a whot and bought all their old records, and Pete

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Speaker 6: Townsend started to feel like a like another dad, or

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Speaker 6: like an older brother or something.

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Speaker 5: It's interesting that he's I think underestimated as not as

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Speaker 5: a guitar player, but almost as an influence on people.

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Speaker 5: He's so, yeah, he is unique, but that propulsive style,

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Speaker 5: no one plays the way he does. Yes, but he doesn't.

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Speaker 5: He's not in that pantheon of oh I love Clapton

350
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Speaker 5: or I love this guy, right, but in terms of rhythm,

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Speaker 5: he's completely his own.

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Speaker 6: Beast absolutely and and sound and approach and and and

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Speaker 6: tricks and adventure.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, and it's super punk.

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Speaker 6: I know that's a that word as a whole hours

356
00:21:51,756 --> 00:21:54,476
Speaker 6: long discussion, because it's sometimes very slippery, you know the

357
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Speaker 6: meaning of it. But just the wildly adventurous kind of

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Speaker 6: reigned in organized chaos and doing stuff that you know,

359
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Speaker 6: sounded like the speaker is blowing up kind of a

360
00:22:07,716 --> 00:22:11,556
Speaker 6: pickup switching and and string scratching, and it's just so exciting.

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Speaker 5: Did that music I'm thinking, particularly something like Remain in Light,

362
00:22:15,276 --> 00:22:17,076
Speaker 5: it's fairly esoteric.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, for sure.

364
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Speaker 5: Did you feel like I can go do this?

365
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Speaker 6: Absolutely not? And that was the great thing about the

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Speaker 6: Ramones and the Who. I really I loved classic rock

367
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Speaker 6: and love the songs, really loved Zeppelin and Hendrix too,

368
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Speaker 6: and that to me was not particularly encouraging music because

369
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Speaker 6: it was so many steps away.

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Speaker 7: I couldn't see it. I always felt that.

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Speaker 5: Way with them as I grew up on that kind

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Speaker 5: of music and just thinking like, be like if somebody

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Speaker 5: gave me like eat Sock Pearlman and said here's a violin,

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Speaker 5: and I'd be like, well, I don't know where to start.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, where whereas a lot of like Who in Ramones,

376
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Speaker 6: it is sort of like, if you can drum this

377
00:22:53,036 --> 00:22:55,236
Speaker 6: beat out with your hand on a desk, you can

378
00:22:55,396 --> 00:22:57,036
Speaker 6: probably actually do it because all you have to do

379
00:22:57,076 --> 00:22:58,676
Speaker 6: is put your fingers in a certain position to get

380
00:22:58,716 --> 00:23:01,076
Speaker 6: a chord and get used to holding a pick and

381
00:23:01,116 --> 00:23:03,396
Speaker 6: do that same rhythm you were beating out on the desk,

382
00:23:03,476 --> 00:23:04,996
Speaker 6: do it on the guitar and you're kind of there,

383
00:23:05,676 --> 00:23:08,116
Speaker 6: you know, not to overly simple, I mean obviously they're

384
00:23:08,116 --> 00:23:10,556
Speaker 6: incredible players, unbelievable, but yeah.

385
00:23:10,436 --> 00:23:14,876
Speaker 7: Much much more, much more doable, reachable. Yeah.

386
00:23:14,916 --> 00:23:16,396
Speaker 5: Well, there's something else I want to ask you about,

387
00:23:16,436 --> 00:23:19,276
Speaker 5: because you made a short little filmed about it, which

388
00:23:19,316 --> 00:23:21,356
Speaker 5: is you had a tremor when you were a kid.

389
00:23:21,556 --> 00:23:23,876
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, and do you still I do.

390
00:23:24,036 --> 00:23:27,276
Speaker 6: It's I'm really lucky in that it's going the opposite

391
00:23:27,316 --> 00:23:29,836
Speaker 6: direction of most people I know have it. It tends

392
00:23:29,836 --> 00:23:31,516
Speaker 6: to get worse. Mine is getting a little better. But

393
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Speaker 6: I just had very shaky hands as a child. There's

394
00:23:34,356 --> 00:23:36,716
Speaker 6: you know, teased a fair amount for that, you know, while.

395
00:23:36,516 --> 00:23:39,916
Speaker 5: You're so nervous, because did it made you appear nervous?

396
00:23:40,076 --> 00:23:40,836
Speaker 7: Yeah?

397
00:23:41,116 --> 00:23:43,556
Speaker 6: You know, if I would meet like my girlfriend's parents

398
00:23:43,596 --> 00:23:45,916
Speaker 6: and they asked me to pour them a glass of

399
00:23:45,916 --> 00:23:48,476
Speaker 6: water or something, you know, thinking that something was going

400
00:23:48,516 --> 00:23:50,196
Speaker 6: to go wrong I was going to start shaking, would

401
00:23:50,196 --> 00:23:52,996
Speaker 6: make me shake very much. So there's that kind of

402
00:23:53,036 --> 00:23:58,316
Speaker 6: psyching yourself out problem. What's the neurological it's just for

403
00:23:58,356 --> 00:24:02,236
Speaker 6: that intentional tremor, And I wish I knew more, But

404
00:24:02,276 --> 00:24:05,276
Speaker 6: it's something like intentional, I e. When you don't want

405
00:24:05,316 --> 00:24:06,036
Speaker 6: to do it, you do it.

406
00:24:06,836 --> 00:24:09,796
Speaker 5: So is it almost like stuttering, Yes.

407
00:24:10,076 --> 00:24:10,716
Speaker 7: Exactly right.

408
00:24:10,756 --> 00:24:13,796
Speaker 6: And it's gotten better in part because I'm just calmer

409
00:24:13,796 --> 00:24:14,836
Speaker 6: and happier as a person.

410
00:24:15,476 --> 00:24:16,116
Speaker 7: I meditate.

411
00:24:17,196 --> 00:24:20,836
Speaker 6: I don't have totally, you know, super regular practice or anything,

412
00:24:20,836 --> 00:24:23,516
Speaker 6: but I do it pretty often. And just I have

413
00:24:24,516 --> 00:24:26,636
Speaker 6: this theory that as you get older, you get happier

414
00:24:26,676 --> 00:24:29,116
Speaker 6: because you were in so much danger when you were

415
00:24:29,156 --> 00:24:30,996
Speaker 6: a child, or there was so much danger that you

416
00:24:31,036 --> 00:24:34,276
Speaker 6: needed to communicate to your parents when you were a baby.

417
00:24:34,316 --> 00:24:36,636
Speaker 6: You needed to let them know you were tired, or

418
00:24:36,676 --> 00:24:39,556
Speaker 6: that you were hungry or thirsty or cold. And now

419
00:24:39,636 --> 00:24:42,796
Speaker 6: that now that we're older, maybe our bodies are like,

420
00:24:43,356 --> 00:24:45,876
Speaker 6: maybe it's okay to turn off some alarm systems now

421
00:24:45,876 --> 00:24:50,956
Speaker 6: because things seem to have been going pretty regularly for

422
00:24:50,996 --> 00:24:54,676
Speaker 6: a few years. So I've been experiencing this increase in

423
00:24:54,756 --> 00:24:56,676
Speaker 6: peace as I get older.

424
00:24:56,716 --> 00:25:00,356
Speaker 5: It absolutely happens, and it's well documented the U shape

425
00:25:00,716 --> 00:25:04,956
Speaker 5: oh happiness. The low point apparently is forty seven, right.

426
00:25:06,916 --> 00:25:11,236
Speaker 5: It actually I'm maybe the isolated to the one day

427
00:25:12,036 --> 00:25:14,876
Speaker 5: forty And I'm not sure, but I'll bet you when

428
00:25:14,876 --> 00:25:17,076
Speaker 5: you were a kid, did did tremor affect how you

429
00:25:17,076 --> 00:25:17,716
Speaker 5: played guitar?

430
00:25:18,476 --> 00:25:18,716
Speaker 4: Well?

431
00:25:18,756 --> 00:25:21,476
Speaker 6: I think I think it discouraged me from getting too

432
00:25:21,476 --> 00:25:23,876
Speaker 6: far into fingerpicking, which is kind of a regret. I'm

433
00:25:23,916 --> 00:25:26,796
Speaker 6: trying to mend that now and learn a little more,

434
00:25:26,916 --> 00:25:29,116
Speaker 6: you know, trying to figure out how to play scarboroughfair

435
00:25:29,156 --> 00:25:31,596
Speaker 6: and stuff like that. But no, I mean, because once

436
00:25:31,596 --> 00:25:34,316
Speaker 6: I'm into it, it would kind of disappear. It's like

437
00:25:34,356 --> 00:25:35,956
Speaker 6: the first few minutes on stage used to be a

438
00:25:35,996 --> 00:25:38,476
Speaker 6: little dicey. I think, like my breath is going to

439
00:25:38,556 --> 00:25:40,956
Speaker 6: be really short, and I'm going to sing. You'll hear

440
00:25:41,036 --> 00:25:44,196
Speaker 6: my nervousness. But that's gotten shorter and shorter, and it's

441
00:25:44,276 --> 00:25:47,756
Speaker 6: kind of dissipated. But even back then, after a few minutes,

442
00:25:48,116 --> 00:25:50,516
Speaker 6: just the act of doing something I love so much

443
00:25:50,556 --> 00:25:52,396
Speaker 6: would calm me down and then I'd get through.

444
00:25:52,476 --> 00:25:57,156
Speaker 5: Interesting, you're such a propulsive player, maybe that helps you

445
00:25:57,276 --> 00:25:58,276
Speaker 5: to start.

446
00:25:58,556 --> 00:25:59,636
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think so.

447
00:25:59,836 --> 00:26:02,036
Speaker 6: And I was just talking about XDC the other day,

448
00:26:02,036 --> 00:26:04,396
Speaker 6: you know, Andy Partridge stopped touring and I think it

449
00:26:04,476 --> 00:26:06,596
Speaker 6: was eighty two or something from Stage Fright, and I

450
00:26:06,636 --> 00:26:09,396
Speaker 6: was talking to a friend about how he's seem to

451
00:26:09,436 --> 00:26:13,476
Speaker 6: be such an animated and active and compelling frontman.

452
00:26:13,796 --> 00:26:14,796
Speaker 7: But maybe that's how.

453
00:26:14,636 --> 00:26:18,556
Speaker 6: He got through his Stage fright was by by just

454
00:26:18,956 --> 00:26:22,796
Speaker 6: becoming wild. So that he would forget that he was afraid.

455
00:26:23,676 --> 00:26:27,436
Speaker 5: You know what's interesting to me about particularly this new record,

456
00:26:28,356 --> 00:26:30,036
Speaker 5: because you have been a band that's been around for

457
00:26:30,076 --> 00:26:34,276
Speaker 5: a while. Most bands that have been around this this long,

458
00:26:34,596 --> 00:26:38,756
Speaker 5: most singer songwriters, you know, some of my favorite performers

459
00:26:38,796 --> 00:26:42,916
Speaker 5: in the world, they lose their fastball. It becomes very

460
00:26:42,916 --> 00:26:46,156
Speaker 5: hard for them to do the fast songs the way

461
00:26:46,156 --> 00:26:50,556
Speaker 5: they used to. But your band, you still do amazing

462
00:26:50,636 --> 00:26:53,236
Speaker 5: fast songs. And I think you're I'm not gonna say

463
00:26:53,236 --> 00:26:55,156
Speaker 5: one of the few, but you're one of the bands

464
00:26:55,156 --> 00:26:57,436
Speaker 5: that can still pull off a great fast song without

465
00:26:57,596 --> 00:27:00,396
Speaker 5: making it sound like here's our new fast song. I'm

466
00:27:00,396 --> 00:27:05,116
Speaker 5: trying really hard without that. So what accounts for you

467
00:27:05,196 --> 00:27:07,836
Speaker 5: being able to do this so well for so long?

468
00:27:08,716 --> 00:27:11,156
Speaker 7: Guys, thank you for the very kind words. I don't know.

469
00:27:11,196 --> 00:27:13,796
Speaker 6: I heard a Johnny Mark quote. He said something like,

470
00:27:13,916 --> 00:27:16,916
Speaker 6: I have two speeds, fast and slow. We're very fast

471
00:27:16,956 --> 00:27:19,556
Speaker 6: and very slow, and so I don't know if there's

472
00:27:19,556 --> 00:27:23,036
Speaker 6: this habit like I'm used to. I'm used to moving

473
00:27:23,076 --> 00:27:26,916
Speaker 6: my right hand really quickly. I have like jittery legs,

474
00:27:26,916 --> 00:27:29,396
Speaker 6: you know, nervous legs. And remember when I was a kid,

475
00:27:29,756 --> 00:27:31,836
Speaker 6: I was at like a play with my parents, and

476
00:27:32,316 --> 00:27:35,436
Speaker 6: during the intermission somebody from three or four seats away

477
00:27:35,516 --> 00:27:36,316
Speaker 6: came over to me and.

478
00:27:36,276 --> 00:27:38,076
Speaker 7: Said, kid, you gotta stop moving.

479
00:27:39,356 --> 00:27:40,756
Speaker 6: But anyway, that was when I was a kid, So

480
00:27:40,756 --> 00:27:43,676
Speaker 6: it doesn't explain now. I don't know it just it

481
00:27:43,716 --> 00:27:44,916
Speaker 6: feels like it comes naturally.

482
00:27:45,516 --> 00:27:47,676
Speaker 5: I'm not wrong though. A lot of bands kind of

483
00:27:47,716 --> 00:27:48,316
Speaker 5: lose their.

484
00:27:48,636 --> 00:27:51,396
Speaker 6: Yeah, well we check ourselves now and again and keep

485
00:27:51,436 --> 00:27:54,716
Speaker 6: asking ourselves, is too fast right? Because we tend to

486
00:27:54,716 --> 00:27:57,196
Speaker 6: play everything faster, live, just excitable.

487
00:27:57,396 --> 00:28:00,716
Speaker 5: Well that's you know, that's the Ramones tradition, right, wasn't

488
00:28:00,756 --> 00:28:03,596
Speaker 5: the famous quote They asked one of them how the

489
00:28:03,596 --> 00:28:07,116
Speaker 5: tour was going, and one of them said, we're doing

490
00:28:07,116 --> 00:28:10,356
Speaker 5: it in fifty minutes whatever. It's like crazy number of songs. Said,

491
00:28:10,356 --> 00:28:11,956
Speaker 5: but we're trying to get it down to forty five.

492
00:28:13,716 --> 00:28:16,556
Speaker 6: Well, you know we We did an iggy Pop song

493
00:28:16,756 --> 00:28:19,756
Speaker 6: on a compilation called We Will Fall the nineteen ninety

494
00:28:19,836 --> 00:28:22,796
Speaker 6: eight or something, and Iggy Pop was on it, and

495
00:28:22,916 --> 00:28:24,596
Speaker 6: the label was based in New York and they wanted

496
00:28:24,636 --> 00:28:26,236
Speaker 6: to have a record release party and they needed a

497
00:28:26,276 --> 00:28:29,196
Speaker 6: band to back Joey up, so they we were the

498
00:28:29,196 --> 00:28:31,636
Speaker 6: only New York band on that record, so they asked us,

499
00:28:31,676 --> 00:28:33,196
Speaker 6: and of course we said yes, and they said, okay,

500
00:28:33,436 --> 00:28:35,556
Speaker 6: you're going to do I want to be sedated and

501
00:28:36,276 --> 00:28:37,796
Speaker 6: nineteen seventy this do just song.

502
00:28:38,316 --> 00:28:39,716
Speaker 7: So we practiced.

503
00:28:39,316 --> 00:28:42,476
Speaker 6: For two weeks, I mean completely obsessively, and then at

504
00:28:42,516 --> 00:28:45,076
Speaker 6: practice for the thing when he came, you know, and

505
00:28:45,116 --> 00:28:49,116
Speaker 6: we're just like grinning like kids, were so excited. Daniel

506
00:28:49,596 --> 00:28:52,116
Speaker 6: Ray was this great producer, was with him and he

507
00:28:52,196 --> 00:28:55,796
Speaker 6: counted it off at the speed that the Ramones were

508
00:28:55,836 --> 00:28:58,636
Speaker 6: doing it, you know, right up until the end. And Ira,

509
00:28:58,716 --> 00:29:01,356
Speaker 6: our drummer, to his total credit, said actually, could we

510
00:29:01,356 --> 00:29:03,116
Speaker 6: do this? Could we do it at this speed? And

511
00:29:03,156 --> 00:29:06,476
Speaker 6: clicked out the album speed, which is quite a bit slower.

512
00:29:07,116 --> 00:29:10,916
Speaker 6: It's really twenty twenty twenty four, it's not that fast.

513
00:29:11,476 --> 00:29:14,476
Speaker 6: And Joey really liked it, which was so it was

514
00:29:14,516 --> 00:29:17,476
Speaker 6: so great. And then he said, after we'd done the

515
00:29:17,476 --> 00:29:19,716
Speaker 6: record release party, he said, hey, if you want the

516
00:29:19,756 --> 00:29:21,436
Speaker 6: next time you have a gig in New York, learn

517
00:29:21,476 --> 00:29:23,516
Speaker 6: your seven favorite Romone songs and I'll get up and

518
00:29:23,516 --> 00:29:26,196
Speaker 6: sing them. And we had a show at conyel And

519
00:29:26,236 --> 00:29:29,236
Speaker 6: High two weeks later, and he did it.

520
00:29:29,436 --> 00:29:31,236
Speaker 5: Oh my god, it was so great.

521
00:29:31,316 --> 00:29:33,076
Speaker 7: I still have the setless. I just can't.

522
00:29:33,196 --> 00:29:35,316
Speaker 6: I can't believe it actually happened, but it did. It

523
00:29:35,396 --> 00:29:38,076
Speaker 6: was a total thrill, I mean thrill of a lifetime obviously.

524
00:29:38,676 --> 00:29:39,956
Speaker 5: Wow, so fantastic.

525
00:29:40,036 --> 00:29:40,796
Speaker 7: Yeah, so great.

526
00:29:40,996 --> 00:29:42,836
Speaker 5: You see even he wanted to go mid tempo when

527
00:29:42,836 --> 00:29:45,436
Speaker 5: he got older. Yeah, what a great guy.

528
00:29:45,916 --> 00:29:49,436
Speaker 7: Yeah, he was so super sweet. Yeah, incredibulous.

529
00:29:49,676 --> 00:29:51,316
Speaker 5: So where did you meet your bandmates?

530
00:29:51,756 --> 00:29:55,316
Speaker 6: So Daniel Lorca, the bass player, he went to the

531
00:29:55,396 --> 00:29:58,996
Speaker 6: Lise Frosse and I did too because my parents took

532
00:29:58,996 --> 00:30:01,836
Speaker 6: sabbatical years and I lived. We lived in parisise five

533
00:30:01,916 --> 00:30:04,836
Speaker 6: years old and then twelve years old later, and they

534
00:30:04,876 --> 00:30:07,076
Speaker 6: put me in the local school and I didn't understand

535
00:30:07,076 --> 00:30:09,276
Speaker 6: a word, and then started to pick up a little

536
00:30:09,276 --> 00:30:10,476
Speaker 6: bit of French, and by the time we got back

537
00:30:10,516 --> 00:30:13,636
Speaker 6: to New York, I was Frenchish enough that my parents

538
00:30:13,636 --> 00:30:14,356
Speaker 6: put me in that school.

539
00:30:14,396 --> 00:30:15,196
Speaker 7: So Daniel was there.

540
00:30:15,796 --> 00:30:18,716
Speaker 6: He's from Spain, but his father was a diplomat and

541
00:30:18,716 --> 00:30:19,636
Speaker 6: they'd moved around a lot.

542
00:30:19,836 --> 00:30:21,196
Speaker 7: So that's two of us.

543
00:30:21,236 --> 00:30:25,356
Speaker 6: And then when we were sixteen, we went to see

544
00:30:25,396 --> 00:30:28,276
Speaker 6: a band called the Fuzztones a bunch of times and

545
00:30:28,396 --> 00:30:30,036
Speaker 6: thought their drummer was great and met him and he

546
00:30:30,076 --> 00:30:33,636
Speaker 6: seemed like a really nice guy. And there were a

547
00:30:33,676 --> 00:30:36,876
Speaker 6: few times when Daniel and I had a couple of bands,

548
00:30:36,956 --> 00:30:38,956
Speaker 6: and there were a couple of times, yeah, maybe only

549
00:30:38,956 --> 00:30:40,596
Speaker 6: two times when we needed a drummer and he said,

550
00:30:40,636 --> 00:30:43,636
Speaker 6: let's call Iron. I said no, because I thought he

551
00:30:43,756 --> 00:30:46,156
Speaker 6: was too good, and I thought we might not be

552
00:30:46,196 --> 00:30:48,956
Speaker 6: able to hold on to him. You know, a really

553
00:30:48,996 --> 00:30:51,116
Speaker 6: good drummer in New York who was also a really

554
00:30:51,156 --> 00:30:52,836
Speaker 6: sweet guy and funny.

555
00:30:52,916 --> 00:30:55,876
Speaker 7: You know, that's like gold. So I thought, let's not

556
00:30:55,876 --> 00:30:57,596
Speaker 7: do it Unicorn, Yeah, exactly.

557
00:30:57,636 --> 00:30:59,916
Speaker 6: And then and then a couple of years later, I

558
00:31:00,036 --> 00:31:02,396
Speaker 6: kind of started to have some confidence in the songs

559
00:31:02,396 --> 00:31:04,076
Speaker 6: that we had and I said, yeah, let's call him,

560
00:31:04,476 --> 00:31:08,116
Speaker 6: and he joined up. And then Louis Lino, our keyboard player,

561
00:31:08,596 --> 00:31:11,236
Speaker 6: was here, and Williamsburg and Daniel in nineteen ninety one

562
00:31:11,356 --> 00:31:14,876
Speaker 6: moved into the apartment under Louis and he had a

563
00:31:14,916 --> 00:31:18,396
Speaker 6: recording studio, and we became friends and would sometimes record

564
00:31:18,396 --> 00:31:21,516
Speaker 6: a little something in his studio, and over the years

565
00:31:21,556 --> 00:31:23,796
Speaker 6: he could you know, mix a song here or there

566
00:31:24,036 --> 00:31:25,756
Speaker 6: and add some keyboards to a couple of songs on

567
00:31:25,796 --> 00:31:28,156
Speaker 6: a record, and finally started touring with us, and now

568
00:31:28,156 --> 00:31:28,956
Speaker 6: he's full time.

569
00:31:28,996 --> 00:31:31,836
Speaker 5: And then how did you meet rick O Kasik, who

570
00:31:31,876 --> 00:31:33,076
Speaker 5: produced your first record.

571
00:31:33,396 --> 00:31:36,516
Speaker 6: Well, Daniel would go back to Spain every summer and

572
00:31:36,676 --> 00:31:39,356
Speaker 6: we made a forty five. A friend of mine, Joehabiko,

573
00:31:39,436 --> 00:31:43,036
Speaker 6: wanted to start a label, but he couldn't afford to

574
00:31:43,076 --> 00:31:44,916
Speaker 6: put out a single and I couldn't either, so we

575
00:31:44,996 --> 00:31:46,436
Speaker 6: split it and I made the covers.

576
00:31:46,436 --> 00:31:46,836
Speaker 7: He made the.

577
00:31:47,036 --> 00:31:51,876
Speaker 6: Vinyl and a song called the Plan, and Daniel took

578
00:31:51,916 --> 00:31:53,796
Speaker 6: that to Spain and played it for somebody, who played

579
00:31:53,796 --> 00:31:56,276
Speaker 6: it for somebody, and we were offered a deal to

580
00:31:56,316 --> 00:31:58,836
Speaker 6: put out a record in Spain. So we made an

581
00:31:58,836 --> 00:32:01,276
Speaker 6: album and sent it to this label and they said, well,

582
00:32:01,276 --> 00:32:04,396
Speaker 6: we want it worldwide, and we said, you know, we

583
00:32:04,676 --> 00:32:07,876
Speaker 6: knew that, even though we were just pretty green, that

584
00:32:08,276 --> 00:32:10,516
Speaker 6: if somebody didn't have something going on in the whole world,

585
00:32:10,596 --> 00:32:12,116
Speaker 6: you couldn't give it to them for that. So I

586
00:32:12,156 --> 00:32:13,636
Speaker 6: was sitting on this tape of a record that we

587
00:32:13,676 --> 00:32:15,036
Speaker 6: didn't know what to do with, and I sent it

588
00:32:15,076 --> 00:32:17,756
Speaker 6: to the indie labels I really liked, and never heard

589
00:32:17,796 --> 00:32:19,476
Speaker 6: back from him. I was sitting on the subway one

590
00:32:19,516 --> 00:32:23,996
Speaker 6: day and there was Mitch Easter like twelve feet away

591
00:32:24,156 --> 00:32:27,836
Speaker 6: reading the daily news. I was too shy, and I

592
00:32:27,876 --> 00:32:29,916
Speaker 6: regretted it immediately when I got out of the train,

593
00:32:29,916 --> 00:32:31,716
Speaker 6: and I hadn't given him a cassette. So I told myself,

594
00:32:31,756 --> 00:32:33,276
Speaker 6: I'm never going to do that again. If there's a

595
00:32:33,356 --> 00:32:36,036
Speaker 6: chance i'm supposed to take, I will take it. A

596
00:32:36,116 --> 00:32:37,956
Speaker 6: couple of weeks later, I went to see a blonde

597
00:32:37,956 --> 00:32:40,436
Speaker 6: redhead knitting factory and I was walking out and I

598
00:32:40,476 --> 00:32:44,076
Speaker 6: saw Rick Okasak walking in, and I mean, I'd always

599
00:32:44,076 --> 00:32:44,396
Speaker 6: loved him.

600
00:32:44,396 --> 00:32:46,476
Speaker 7: I always loved the cars. I knew he was a

601
00:32:46,516 --> 00:32:49,036
Speaker 7: producer too, and he's a really good one.

602
00:32:49,556 --> 00:32:51,996
Speaker 5: Underrated as a producer. He did a lot of music. Yeah,

603
00:32:52,076 --> 00:32:53,756
Speaker 5: people remember him as a singer.

604
00:32:53,796 --> 00:32:57,916
Speaker 6: Song right, Yeah, Romeo Avoid Suicide, Bad Brains and then Weezer, Weezer.

605
00:32:58,076 --> 00:32:58,436
Speaker 7: Yeah.

606
00:32:58,636 --> 00:33:01,636
Speaker 6: So I went up and said, so sorry to bother you,

607
00:33:01,636 --> 00:33:03,596
Speaker 6: but I'm an abandon and could I give you a tape?

608
00:33:03,596 --> 00:33:04,956
Speaker 6: And he said, oh, sure, is your number on it?

609
00:33:04,996 --> 00:33:08,196
Speaker 6: It's very gracious. Wow, And I never thought in a

610
00:33:08,236 --> 00:33:10,636
Speaker 6: million years you would call. But I, as the saying goes,

611
00:33:10,676 --> 00:33:12,196
Speaker 6: went out to dinner on that for a couple of weeks.

612
00:33:12,196 --> 00:33:13,596
Speaker 6: You know, I told some friends, you'll ever get So

613
00:33:13,636 --> 00:33:15,676
Speaker 6: I gave a tape and then one day I came home,

614
00:33:15,716 --> 00:33:18,596
Speaker 6: my roommate said, you need to listen to the answer machine,

615
00:33:18,796 --> 00:33:20,716
Speaker 6: and there was a message from him, and I called

616
00:33:20,796 --> 00:33:23,516
Speaker 6: him back and he invited me to his house and

617
00:33:24,356 --> 00:33:27,836
Speaker 6: beautiful spring night. I locked my bike to nothing, just

618
00:33:28,156 --> 00:33:30,476
Speaker 6: I leaned my bike against a pole outside his house,

619
00:33:30,516 --> 00:33:31,996
Speaker 6: but locked it nothing.

620
00:33:32,836 --> 00:33:35,716
Speaker 7: I was so right, just based out on cloud nine.

621
00:33:36,036 --> 00:33:39,716
Speaker 6: And he was really sweet, really sweet, and we hung

622
00:33:39,716 --> 00:33:41,276
Speaker 6: out for a little while, you know, I mean.

623
00:33:41,156 --> 00:33:42,916
Speaker 7: You know whatever.

624
00:33:42,956 --> 00:33:46,076
Speaker 6: He had coffee, had water, you know, like nine or

625
00:33:46,076 --> 00:33:48,716
Speaker 6: ten o'clock, and then he invited me to his studio

626
00:33:48,756 --> 00:33:50,916
Speaker 6: downstairs and he said, so, what is this What is

627
00:33:50,956 --> 00:33:52,516
Speaker 6: this tape? And I said, well, it's this record that

628
00:33:52,556 --> 00:33:53,996
Speaker 6: we don't know what to do with. And he said, well,

629
00:33:54,036 --> 00:33:56,676
Speaker 6: you could put it out, but if you ever want

630
00:33:56,676 --> 00:33:59,836
Speaker 6: to rerecord these songs, I'll produce them and I'll be

631
00:33:59,916 --> 00:34:00,436
Speaker 6: really cheap.

632
00:34:01,076 --> 00:34:02,676
Speaker 7: That's great. And he said, do you have a record deal?

633
00:34:02,716 --> 00:34:04,556
Speaker 7: I said no, and he said, well, just keep my number.

634
00:34:05,116 --> 00:34:07,716
Speaker 6: And a couple of weeks later, unbelievably, we were playing

635
00:34:07,756 --> 00:34:09,796
Speaker 6: a bar called Rebar on six steenth Street on the

636
00:34:09,796 --> 00:34:13,236
Speaker 6: West Side, and this really nice guy called Bobby McCain

637
00:34:13,316 --> 00:34:15,676
Speaker 6: came up after and said, I'm into label called Number six,

638
00:34:15,716 --> 00:34:17,836
Speaker 6: and I'd heard of them because they put out a

639
00:34:17,876 --> 00:34:20,076
Speaker 6: Dean Ware Them single and they'd put out the Unrest

640
00:34:20,116 --> 00:34:23,676
Speaker 6: record an Imperial FFRR, which I thought was so good.

641
00:34:24,236 --> 00:34:26,236
Speaker 6: And that was my dream that somebody who put out

642
00:34:26,236 --> 00:34:27,996
Speaker 6: cool records would come up to me after a show

643
00:34:27,996 --> 00:34:30,116
Speaker 6: and just say could I hear a tape? So we

644
00:34:30,116 --> 00:34:33,396
Speaker 6: gave him one and the next day he called and said, actually,

645
00:34:33,436 --> 00:34:36,756
Speaker 6: my day job is at Electra and my friend Ben Weber,

646
00:34:36,796 --> 00:34:39,076
Speaker 6: who happens to be our manager now played it for

647
00:34:39,116 --> 00:34:41,196
Speaker 6: his boss and he wants to meet you today. So

648
00:34:41,236 --> 00:34:42,836
Speaker 6: he went up there and we were offered a deal,

649
00:34:42,876 --> 00:34:45,276
Speaker 6: which we turned down for about a month and thought

650
00:34:45,316 --> 00:34:47,356
Speaker 6: about it. Kind of scared us, you know, right, that

651
00:34:47,436 --> 00:34:50,836
Speaker 6: was so quick, and i'd heard stories about you know,

652
00:34:50,876 --> 00:34:53,636
Speaker 6: this was the period of commercial alternative when a lot

653
00:34:53,636 --> 00:34:56,356
Speaker 6: of indie kind of bands were getting signed by big labels.

654
00:34:56,396 --> 00:34:58,876
Speaker 6: It didn't noise end well, but in the end we

655
00:34:58,916 --> 00:35:01,676
Speaker 6: said yes, and he was great in the studio. He's incredible.

656
00:35:01,676 --> 00:35:03,876
Speaker 6: He didn't let the label visit. They wanted to come down.

657
00:35:03,876 --> 00:35:05,996
Speaker 6: He said, absolutely not, and we wouldn't have.

658
00:35:05,956 --> 00:35:06,796
Speaker 7: Been able to stop them.

659
00:35:07,436 --> 00:35:09,716
Speaker 6: And the other wonderful thing he did for me. It

660
00:35:09,796 --> 00:35:12,396
Speaker 6: was great, was that when we would record a song,

661
00:35:12,436 --> 00:35:14,196
Speaker 6: he would have me sing what's called a scratch vocal

662
00:35:14,196 --> 00:35:15,996
Speaker 6: where you go in andto you know, and you'd say, okay,

663
00:35:16,076 --> 00:35:18,636
Speaker 6: do that one more time. Then we did guitars and

664
00:35:18,636 --> 00:35:20,396
Speaker 6: and so about eight or nine days into the record,

665
00:35:20,556 --> 00:35:21,836
Speaker 6: we were running out of things to do, and I

666
00:35:22,036 --> 00:35:24,876
Speaker 6: knew it was time to sing. And I sort of

667
00:35:24,996 --> 00:35:27,036
Speaker 6: nervously said, you know, Rick, is it time to do

668
00:35:27,036 --> 00:35:30,476
Speaker 6: the vocals? And I said, You're done. He knew that

669
00:35:30,516 --> 00:35:34,476
Speaker 6: what I was going to do naturally after a take relaxed,

670
00:35:34,556 --> 00:35:36,236
Speaker 6: was you know, maybe not great, but it was going

671
00:35:36,276 --> 00:35:38,636
Speaker 6: to be better than Red Light Fever. So that was

672
00:35:38,756 --> 00:35:40,676
Speaker 6: really that was a really sweet thing. I think he's

673
00:35:40,716 --> 00:35:44,356
Speaker 6: really good at young bands. My father figure.

674
00:35:45,236 --> 00:35:48,876
Speaker 5: You know, those car records he did were so I know,

675
00:35:48,916 --> 00:35:51,476
Speaker 5: he didn't produce small, but they were so slick and

676
00:35:51,596 --> 00:35:52,516
Speaker 5: highly produced.

677
00:35:52,596 --> 00:35:54,316
Speaker 7: Yes, yeah, your.

678
00:35:54,156 --> 00:35:59,876
Speaker 5: First record wasn't Yeah, it was more ramshackle. And did

679
00:35:59,876 --> 00:36:01,516
Speaker 5: that surprise you? Did you think he was going to

680
00:36:01,516 --> 00:36:02,996
Speaker 5: give you the cars sound?

681
00:36:04,036 --> 00:36:07,436
Speaker 6: No, but it's it's a little wilder maybe than the

682
00:36:07,796 --> 00:36:08,396
Speaker 6: We's a record.

683
00:36:08,436 --> 00:36:08,996
Speaker 7: For example.

684
00:36:09,236 --> 00:36:11,596
Speaker 6: Parably, I already knew that he really likes suicide and

685
00:36:11,596 --> 00:36:14,796
Speaker 6: stuff so and bad brains. Right, So like he clearly

686
00:36:14,836 --> 00:36:18,476
Speaker 6: he liked wilder music also, right. But but you know

687
00:36:18,556 --> 00:36:21,756
Speaker 6: he even in the ramshackle nature that record, he was

688
00:36:21,836 --> 00:36:24,796
Speaker 6: he zoned in on certain things, said double this word,

689
00:36:24,876 --> 00:36:27,276
Speaker 6: put another guitar here, you know, And I knew what

690
00:36:27,356 --> 00:36:29,916
Speaker 6: he was going for was a little precision. Yeah, like

691
00:36:30,036 --> 00:36:31,676
Speaker 6: when you would have me double track of guitar, you'd

692
00:36:31,676 --> 00:36:33,716
Speaker 6: have me do it seven or eight times. And I

693
00:36:33,756 --> 00:36:35,076
Speaker 6: was just doing the same thing over and over, and

694
00:36:35,116 --> 00:36:37,396
Speaker 6: he was just waiting for the one where accidentally I

695
00:36:37,556 --> 00:36:39,236
Speaker 6: hit it the same micro second and it had a

696
00:36:39,236 --> 00:36:41,836
Speaker 6: little more power to it, And he was looking for that,

697
00:36:42,356 --> 00:36:44,156
Speaker 6: which is kind of a pop thing to be looking for,

698
00:36:44,356 --> 00:36:45,196
Speaker 6: looking for impact.

699
00:36:45,556 --> 00:36:48,876
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, and then you know from there, you've had

700
00:36:48,916 --> 00:36:51,836
Speaker 5: this career that's it's like the history of modern music.

701
00:36:51,956 --> 00:36:56,676
Speaker 5: You had a big single, right popular that's on MTV. Yeah,

702
00:36:56,716 --> 00:36:58,196
Speaker 5: and then you're dropped by your label.

703
00:36:58,916 --> 00:36:59,316
Speaker 7: Yeah.

704
00:36:59,436 --> 00:37:02,156
Speaker 5: Then you put out you know the album where I

705
00:37:02,236 --> 00:37:05,556
Speaker 5: discovered you let Go or a lot of people discovered you. Yeah,

706
00:37:05,596 --> 00:37:09,916
Speaker 5: and I discovered it because someone gave me a compilation

707
00:37:10,036 --> 00:37:13,276
Speaker 5: They used to give out it Starbucks. Oh yeah, yeah,

708
00:37:13,596 --> 00:37:16,156
Speaker 5: here music used to do them, and I know everybody

709
00:37:16,356 --> 00:37:20,356
Speaker 5: makes fun of you know, oh Starbucks music. Those compilations

710
00:37:20,356 --> 00:37:22,316
Speaker 5: were actually fabulous. There are a bunch of great bands,

711
00:37:22,356 --> 00:37:25,756
Speaker 5: and you did it was a blizzard of seventy eight seven,

712
00:37:25,836 --> 00:37:27,916
Speaker 5: which I have to ask you about that song because

713
00:37:28,476 --> 00:37:31,636
Speaker 5: growing up in Canada as I did. Yeah, I heard

714
00:37:31,636 --> 00:37:33,996
Speaker 5: that song and I thought, wow, this guy knows what

715
00:37:34,036 --> 00:37:37,356
Speaker 5: a blizzard really is. Yeah, yeah, tell me about that song.

716
00:37:37,716 --> 00:37:39,956
Speaker 7: Well, I remember blizzards in New York.

717
00:37:40,116 --> 00:37:43,276
Speaker 6: I mean I blizzards everywhere. I mean snow days. Did

718
00:37:43,316 --> 00:37:46,596
Speaker 6: you find that snow days were like heaven?

719
00:37:46,716 --> 00:37:48,156
Speaker 5: I mean they were like magic.

720
00:37:48,236 --> 00:37:49,076
Speaker 7: It's like magic.

721
00:37:49,116 --> 00:37:51,196
Speaker 6: And we'd wait by the phone to hear if there

722
00:37:51,196 --> 00:37:53,396
Speaker 6: was the announcement that that schools were closed in New

723
00:37:53,436 --> 00:37:56,916
Speaker 6: York today, and I love that the city would disappear.

724
00:37:57,756 --> 00:38:02,916
Speaker 6: All the cars are gone, everything's white, everything's new clean.

725
00:38:03,676 --> 00:38:05,716
Speaker 6: I knew that there was a big blizzard in seventy eight.

726
00:38:06,316 --> 00:38:09,836
Speaker 6: Seventy seven was catchy number, though I moved it over

727
00:38:09,876 --> 00:38:12,276
Speaker 6: by one. But I was just thinking back to those

728
00:38:12,396 --> 00:38:15,636
Speaker 6: joyous I mean that line at least is thinking back

729
00:38:15,676 --> 00:38:17,716
Speaker 6: to those joyous days. And then you meet up with

730
00:38:17,756 --> 00:38:20,076
Speaker 6: your friends in the park and you see people on

731
00:38:20,516 --> 00:38:24,036
Speaker 6: cross country skis going down the avenue and the cars

732
00:38:24,076 --> 00:38:26,476
Speaker 6: are just lumps in the snow the way the lyrics say.

733
00:38:26,396 --> 00:38:28,676
Speaker 5: Yeah, then it becomes a love song. It's not a

734
00:38:28,836 --> 00:38:29,916
Speaker 5: blizzard song at all.

735
00:38:30,196 --> 00:38:30,956
Speaker 7: Yeah.

736
00:38:31,116 --> 00:38:33,476
Speaker 6: The reason it's sort of a for us kind of

737
00:38:33,556 --> 00:38:35,316
Speaker 6: quiet song is that I was sharing a room with

738
00:38:35,396 --> 00:38:37,836
Speaker 6: Daniel in a hotel in Amsterdam when we were on tour.

739
00:38:38,196 --> 00:38:40,036
Speaker 6: I was starting to hear the song in my head

740
00:38:40,076 --> 00:38:41,516
Speaker 6: and didn't want to bother them, so I went into

741
00:38:41,556 --> 00:38:45,196
Speaker 6: the bathroom and played it really quietly into a little

742
00:38:45,196 --> 00:38:47,596
Speaker 6: portable four track, and we like the way it sound

743
00:38:47,676 --> 00:38:49,076
Speaker 6: kind of hushed, so we kept it that way.

744
00:38:49,356 --> 00:38:51,356
Speaker 5: Is that how you write? You just have a four track?

745
00:38:51,476 --> 00:38:53,596
Speaker 5: Or do you sit down with pen and paper? What's

746
00:38:53,756 --> 00:38:55,636
Speaker 5: what's your well? Chie?

747
00:38:56,156 --> 00:38:59,356
Speaker 6: I do a little pen and paper, but that stuff

748
00:38:59,356 --> 00:39:02,276
Speaker 6: doesn't seem to last. Maybe I'll fish a line out

749
00:39:02,276 --> 00:39:04,876
Speaker 6: of it or something. But the bits that seem to

750
00:39:05,636 --> 00:39:07,916
Speaker 6: have the best shot. Or when I sit down and

751
00:39:08,156 --> 00:39:10,596
Speaker 6: write some words, ani melody and some chords all at

752
00:39:10,636 --> 00:39:13,396
Speaker 6: the same time, like all married to each other, and

753
00:39:13,436 --> 00:39:15,436
Speaker 6: it can be just a short like one little line,

754
00:39:16,036 --> 00:39:18,556
Speaker 6: and some of them I'll really like and want to

755
00:39:18,596 --> 00:39:20,436
Speaker 6: do more or you know, it depends on it depends

756
00:39:20,476 --> 00:39:23,956
Speaker 6: on if I'm hunting, like if I'm waiting for a

757
00:39:23,996 --> 00:39:25,676
Speaker 6: song to appear, or whether I have an idea, because

758
00:39:25,676 --> 00:39:28,476
Speaker 6: sometimes it's like a concept, you know, and chase it down.

759
00:39:28,916 --> 00:39:30,436
Speaker 2: One last break and then we'll be back with the

760
00:39:30,436 --> 00:39:38,436
Speaker 2: rest of Bruce Headlam's conversation with Matthew Cas What was

761
00:39:38,476 --> 00:39:39,676
Speaker 2: writing like on this album?

762
00:39:40,396 --> 00:39:42,636
Speaker 6: Well, this is for the first time I had a

763
00:39:42,676 --> 00:39:46,076
Speaker 6: real system for a little while, and that is that

764
00:39:46,516 --> 00:39:49,156
Speaker 6: it was sort of tail end of COVID and I

765
00:39:49,196 --> 00:39:52,116
Speaker 6: hadn't done very much with all that extra time except

766
00:39:52,396 --> 00:39:56,076
Speaker 6: spend glorious time with my then toddler. But it was

767
00:39:56,116 --> 00:39:59,116
Speaker 6: really time to get the band going. And so for

768
00:39:59,156 --> 00:40:01,196
Speaker 6: about two months I woke up at five or five

769
00:40:01,356 --> 00:40:05,356
Speaker 6: thirty most mornings, and I found that it was it

770
00:40:05,396 --> 00:40:07,276
Speaker 6: was because then I'd have the house to myself. My

771
00:40:07,316 --> 00:40:08,796
Speaker 6: wife and kid would still be asleep, and I'd have

772
00:40:08,796 --> 00:40:11,156
Speaker 6: the living room all to myself. It's nice to be

773
00:40:11,196 --> 00:40:13,796
Speaker 6: in a big room. Sometimes something about the sound not

774
00:40:13,836 --> 00:40:16,156
Speaker 6: coming back at you from a wall that you're near

775
00:40:16,396 --> 00:40:21,796
Speaker 6: is sort of less assaulting. But what I found, and

776
00:40:21,836 --> 00:40:23,116
Speaker 6: it's a kind of a corny way to put it.

777
00:40:23,156 --> 00:40:24,996
Speaker 6: But it's really what it feels like is that my

778
00:40:25,076 --> 00:40:30,276
Speaker 6: inner critic was still asleep, because like a lot of people,

779
00:40:30,276 --> 00:40:33,476
Speaker 6: I have a fairly active inner critic, and I'm ready

780
00:40:33,476 --> 00:40:35,596
Speaker 6: to shoot down a lot of things that I make.

781
00:40:35,676 --> 00:40:39,196
Speaker 6: And often the fuel or the AMMO of this critic

782
00:40:39,356 --> 00:40:42,036
Speaker 6: is like, this isn't you know A, this isn't very good,

783
00:40:42,116 --> 00:40:44,196
Speaker 6: and you should have started three hours before because it's

784
00:40:44,276 --> 00:40:47,636
Speaker 6: two pm. What we you know, procrastinatory, ADHD, whatever it is,

785
00:40:47,676 --> 00:40:49,796
Speaker 6: whatever caused me to start later than I meant to,

786
00:40:50,076 --> 00:40:54,636
Speaker 6: and that guilt turns into shame, et cetera. But I've

787
00:40:54,676 --> 00:40:58,276
Speaker 6: found that at five, six, six point thirty in the morning,

788
00:40:58,956 --> 00:41:01,676
Speaker 6: I was just innocent. There's nothing wrong. I couldn't have

789
00:41:01,676 --> 00:41:04,196
Speaker 6: wasted the day. There hasn't been a day, it hasn't

790
00:41:04,236 --> 00:41:04,676
Speaker 6: been anything.

791
00:41:04,676 --> 00:41:07,156
Speaker 7: It's all free. Maybe I won't use it later, but

792
00:41:07,196 --> 00:41:08,796
Speaker 7: it's not wrong. It's okay.

793
00:41:09,516 --> 00:41:12,996
Speaker 6: And the sort of heart of most of the songs

794
00:41:13,076 --> 00:41:17,516
Speaker 6: was from those mornings, and I would I'd record whatever

795
00:41:17,556 --> 00:41:19,876
Speaker 6: I liked that morning and label it with a date,

796
00:41:19,956 --> 00:41:22,276
Speaker 6: and then every couple of weeks go back and go

797
00:41:22,316 --> 00:41:24,116
Speaker 6: through those dates and see what was there and try

798
00:41:24,116 --> 00:41:27,276
Speaker 6: to get organized what lines did I like, where the hooks,

799
00:41:27,836 --> 00:41:30,076
Speaker 6: what hooks would go with other hooks and sort of

800
00:41:30,076 --> 00:41:30,756
Speaker 6: build it from there.

801
00:41:31,356 --> 00:41:35,236
Speaker 5: I just saw this interview with Ringo Star and he

802
00:41:35,436 --> 00:41:38,476
Speaker 5: said something I hadn't heard him say before, which is

803
00:41:38,516 --> 00:41:42,916
Speaker 5: that he gave a lot of credit to Paul McCartney

804
00:41:43,756 --> 00:41:46,956
Speaker 5: for he said, always making them work. And he said,

805
00:41:46,956 --> 00:41:49,676
Speaker 5: if it weren't for him, we would have put up

806
00:41:49,716 --> 00:41:53,476
Speaker 5: three albums and been forgotten. So what is it about

807
00:41:53,476 --> 00:41:56,996
Speaker 5: your band that has endured? Are you the task master?

808
00:41:57,156 --> 00:42:00,196
Speaker 5: Are you the guy that gets them all working? Or

809
00:42:00,236 --> 00:42:02,836
Speaker 5: is there some other dynamic that's allowed you to produce

810
00:42:02,996 --> 00:42:03,956
Speaker 5: music for so long.

811
00:42:04,316 --> 00:42:07,276
Speaker 6: I'm a little bit of that guy, but no, because

812
00:42:08,236 --> 00:42:10,556
Speaker 6: we work so much more slowly than the Beatles. You know,

813
00:42:10,596 --> 00:42:12,876
Speaker 6: it's four years since our last record. They would have

814
00:42:12,876 --> 00:42:13,836
Speaker 6: made six.

815
00:42:13,996 --> 00:42:14,836
Speaker 5: It was half their career.

816
00:42:14,956 --> 00:42:17,516
Speaker 7: Yeah, half their career, Yeah, exactly, So we're on a

817
00:42:17,596 --> 00:42:21,236
Speaker 7: much slower track. But yeah, I get real excited. But

818
00:42:21,276 --> 00:42:23,876
Speaker 7: we all do, you know, we all love it.

819
00:42:24,276 --> 00:42:27,556
Speaker 6: And the producer on the last couple of records has

820
00:42:27,596 --> 00:42:29,996
Speaker 6: been this wonderful guy called Ian Lawton, who's been our

821
00:42:30,676 --> 00:42:32,956
Speaker 6: sound man in Europe for over twenty years and our

822
00:42:33,116 --> 00:42:36,676
Speaker 6: tour manager and he he's a get stuff done guy

823
00:42:36,956 --> 00:42:39,876
Speaker 6: with a really sweet touch, you know, not a sergeant,

824
00:42:40,916 --> 00:42:46,036
Speaker 6: more like an encourager, cheerleader, coach, and he gets us going.

825
00:42:46,116 --> 00:42:48,516
Speaker 7: But I'm fairly driven once I get going.

826
00:42:49,356 --> 00:42:51,596
Speaker 5: How much do the songs transform once you're with the

827
00:42:52,076 --> 00:42:53,716
Speaker 5: rest of the band, you.

828
00:42:53,676 --> 00:42:55,956
Speaker 7: Know, from not a lot to a lot.

829
00:42:56,076 --> 00:42:58,796
Speaker 6: It's really a case by case, not tons, but they

830
00:42:58,836 --> 00:43:01,316
Speaker 6: just take on so much more life. And you know,

831
00:43:01,396 --> 00:43:05,396
Speaker 6: Daniel's a really he's a very adventurous player, and we'll

832
00:43:05,436 --> 00:43:09,956
Speaker 6: come up with pretty unorthodox baselines and so often something

833
00:43:09,956 --> 00:43:13,076
Speaker 6: I wouldn't have thought of. And what I really love

834
00:43:13,156 --> 00:43:16,396
Speaker 6: is sometimes that it will feel alien at first, almost wrong,

835
00:43:16,436 --> 00:43:17,396
Speaker 6: and then I'm like, oh, it's great.

836
00:43:18,156 --> 00:43:20,036
Speaker 7: You know. I love that sense of adventure. IRIS like

837
00:43:20,076 --> 00:43:20,356
Speaker 7: that too.

838
00:43:21,156 --> 00:43:24,516
Speaker 5: You know, I mentioned this album was full of like

839
00:43:24,836 --> 00:43:28,556
Speaker 5: good straight ahead, yeah guitar songs, but you know, Open

840
00:43:28,596 --> 00:43:30,476
Speaker 5: Seas and Give Me the Sun. There's just a lot

841
00:43:30,476 --> 00:43:33,716
Speaker 5: of really really sharp songs. Can you talk about the

842
00:43:33,716 --> 00:43:35,356
Speaker 5: first single in.

843
00:43:35,276 --> 00:43:35,876
Speaker 7: Front of me now?

844
00:43:36,036 --> 00:43:36,276
Speaker 5: Yeah?

845
00:43:36,396 --> 00:43:37,236
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah.

846
00:43:37,556 --> 00:43:40,876
Speaker 6: So there's a story, there's a very specific story to

847
00:43:40,916 --> 00:43:43,476
Speaker 6: the song, and it is that I was at home,

848
00:43:44,156 --> 00:43:46,396
Speaker 6: I was vacuuming the house and I was wearing noise

849
00:43:46,436 --> 00:43:49,276
Speaker 6: canceling headphones, and my wife came up the stairs and

850
00:43:49,316 --> 00:43:51,676
Speaker 6: she said, could you fill the bath? I want to

851
00:43:51,716 --> 00:43:53,276
Speaker 6: put some bleach in it and give it a good clean.

852
00:43:53,596 --> 00:43:55,876
Speaker 6: Said it absolutely, So I start filling the bath. I

853
00:43:55,956 --> 00:44:01,076
Speaker 6: put my noise canceling headphones back on, and I keep vacuuming, assuming,

854
00:44:01,076 --> 00:44:03,156
Speaker 6: of course, that I will remember that I'm running a bath.

855
00:44:03,276 --> 00:44:05,316
Speaker 6: Well I did not remember, and she came running up

856
00:44:05,356 --> 00:44:08,316
Speaker 6: the stairs ten minutes later, yelling so.

857
00:44:08,316 --> 00:44:09,916
Speaker 7: That I would hear her what is happening.

858
00:44:10,396 --> 00:44:12,316
Speaker 6: And all our smoke alarms in the house were going

859
00:44:12,316 --> 00:44:15,596
Speaker 6: off because I was I was flooding the kitchen from

860
00:44:15,636 --> 00:44:16,516
Speaker 6: the bedroom upstairs.

861
00:44:16,676 --> 00:44:19,196
Speaker 7: Total utter disaster, to my great shame.

862
00:44:19,876 --> 00:44:24,436
Speaker 6: So I go into whatever action I can mop stop,

863
00:44:24,916 --> 00:44:28,356
Speaker 6: try to turn off the smoke alarms. A few hours later,

864
00:44:28,916 --> 00:44:32,196
Speaker 6: we get the power back on. Seems like everything's drying out.

865
00:44:32,356 --> 00:44:35,796
Speaker 6: We stopped it in time. Nobody's mad, It's all okay.

866
00:44:35,836 --> 00:44:40,476
Speaker 6: But I'm left with this cloud of feeling so dumb

867
00:44:41,276 --> 00:44:45,916
Speaker 6: and disappointed and worried that this is my brain. You know,

868
00:44:45,956 --> 00:44:47,076
Speaker 6: this is the brain I have to live with. It's

869
00:44:47,076 --> 00:44:49,676
Speaker 6: the only one I've got. We'll do something like this unbelievable.

870
00:44:50,156 --> 00:44:52,836
Speaker 6: And a couple of days later, I'm driving. I said,

871
00:44:52,796 --> 00:44:54,956
Speaker 6: it's sort of an errand to do a couple hours

872
00:44:55,036 --> 00:44:57,676
Speaker 6: drive and I'm trying to get out of this funk,

873
00:44:58,596 --> 00:45:02,036
Speaker 6: and I start making a deal with myself. I say,

874
00:45:02,396 --> 00:45:03,996
Speaker 6: the problem is I do too many things at once.

875
00:45:04,116 --> 00:45:06,036
Speaker 6: I'm going to try and do one thing at a time.

876
00:45:07,156 --> 00:45:09,836
Speaker 6: And this tears me up because you know, when you

877
00:45:09,836 --> 00:45:12,356
Speaker 6: make a deal with yourself, it's kind of on on credit.

878
00:45:13,036 --> 00:45:17,196
Speaker 6: You know, I'll feel better now because I'm promising myself

879
00:45:17,196 --> 00:45:19,036
Speaker 6: that I'm going to do X, Y or Z and

880
00:45:19,596 --> 00:45:22,756
Speaker 6: you know, ps that thing. And that song has kind

881
00:45:22,756 --> 00:45:26,356
Speaker 6: of helped me multitask less, but only by like five percent,

882
00:45:26,436 --> 00:45:28,996
Speaker 6: but still every every little bit helps, I guess. But

883
00:45:29,076 --> 00:45:31,996
Speaker 6: so I started writing this song at the wheel, which

884
00:45:31,996 --> 00:45:33,876
Speaker 6: is funny because that's the kind of multitasking too.

885
00:45:33,836 --> 00:45:35,916
Speaker 5: But I wrote more dangerous.

886
00:45:36,836 --> 00:45:38,716
Speaker 7: Well, I was definitely watching the.

887
00:45:38,716 --> 00:45:40,356
Speaker 5: Road, but somebody, yeah, no, I didn't.

888
00:45:40,436 --> 00:45:43,156
Speaker 6: I wasn't using a pen. I was just thinking about it.

889
00:45:44,236 --> 00:45:46,956
Speaker 6: And I didn't get every line, but the concept absolutely.

890
00:45:46,996 --> 00:45:50,196
Speaker 6: I used to be this while I was that. Now

891
00:45:50,236 --> 00:45:53,076
Speaker 6: I'll do what's in front of me. Now, Yeah, that's it.

892
00:45:52,956 --> 00:45:55,796
Speaker 5: And there's something very joyful about that song. Yeah, but

893
00:45:55,916 --> 00:45:58,156
Speaker 5: you're actually just going to take things as they come.

894
00:45:58,276 --> 00:46:00,636
Speaker 6: I think so, I think so, and just the yeah,

895
00:46:00,676 --> 00:46:02,676
Speaker 6: and it's kind of a tumble, which is sort of fun.

896
00:46:02,956 --> 00:46:05,276
Speaker 5: Yeah, you've got a great rhyme with decembering. I can't

897
00:46:05,276 --> 00:46:05,756
Speaker 5: remember what.

898
00:46:05,756 --> 00:46:09,756
Speaker 6: It yes in the middle of summer. I used to

899
00:46:09,756 --> 00:46:12,116
Speaker 6: be haunting, not just remembering. In the middle of the summer,

900
00:46:12,156 --> 00:46:12,876
Speaker 6: I was decembering.

901
00:46:13,316 --> 00:46:15,276
Speaker 5: Now, when you get an idea like that, are you

902
00:46:15,396 --> 00:46:17,676
Speaker 5: just so eager to sit down because you just know

903
00:46:17,716 --> 00:46:21,316
Speaker 5: the lyrics can be? Yeah, how far can I take this?

904
00:46:21,476 --> 00:46:21,676
Speaker 3: Yeah?

905
00:46:21,756 --> 00:46:25,236
Speaker 7: Totally, And I what I enjoyed doing.

906
00:46:25,316 --> 00:46:28,396
Speaker 6: I showed it to a couple of people, and I

907
00:46:28,436 --> 00:46:30,716
Speaker 6: was just making up lyrics on the spot and always

908
00:46:31,156 --> 00:46:33,876
Speaker 6: always messing up, you know, stumbling and out it because

909
00:46:33,876 --> 00:46:35,516
Speaker 6: it's too fast to think of at least for me

910
00:46:35,676 --> 00:46:38,716
Speaker 6: to think of a new words or concept every few seconds.

911
00:46:38,796 --> 00:46:40,476
Speaker 6: But it was just fun to think that it could

912
00:46:40,516 --> 00:46:43,116
Speaker 6: be anything. You know, I used to be cleaning when

913
00:46:43,156 --> 00:46:45,316
Speaker 6: I was dreaming, or I used to be eating when

914
00:46:45,356 --> 00:46:46,836
Speaker 6: I was sweeping, or you know.

915
00:46:47,196 --> 00:46:50,116
Speaker 5: Yeah, it almost feels like like one of the old

916
00:46:50,116 --> 00:46:53,396
Speaker 5: list songs like Johnny Cash is I've been everywhere or

917
00:46:53,596 --> 00:46:55,876
Speaker 5: something like that that just like goes through the whole.

918
00:46:56,116 --> 00:46:57,116
Speaker 7: I love a list song.

919
00:46:57,276 --> 00:47:00,196
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, so tell me about the song Losing.

920
00:47:00,756 --> 00:47:05,316
Speaker 6: That is by Louis Leno, our keyboard player. And we

921
00:47:05,316 --> 00:47:08,076
Speaker 6: were at Daniel's house where we have band practice, and

922
00:47:08,116 --> 00:47:10,676
Speaker 6: we were waiting for everybody to show up and just

923
00:47:10,716 --> 00:47:14,156
Speaker 6: playing each other stuff, you know, tracks or demos on

924
00:47:14,236 --> 00:47:16,716
Speaker 6: our laptops, and he played me that and.

925
00:47:16,756 --> 00:47:18,716
Speaker 7: Just I was floored.

926
00:47:18,756 --> 00:47:21,276
Speaker 6: I loved the chorus right away, really really loved it,

927
00:47:21,356 --> 00:47:24,036
Speaker 6: and asked him if he wouldn't mind, you know, contributing

928
00:47:24,076 --> 00:47:27,116
Speaker 6: it to the band, which means, you know, splitting the

929
00:47:27,156 --> 00:47:29,916
Speaker 6: writing and stuff, because we're kind of a collective that way, right,

930
00:47:29,996 --> 00:47:32,516
Speaker 6: no matter who writes. And yeah, he was into it,

931
00:47:32,596 --> 00:47:35,876
Speaker 6: and I was thrilled. And hats off to John Goodminson

932
00:47:35,916 --> 00:47:39,156
Speaker 6: who makes this record, because he managed to make sense.

933
00:47:38,996 --> 00:47:40,916
Speaker 7: Out of a whole.

934
00:47:41,156 --> 00:47:44,476
Speaker 6: I recorded a lot of kind of my bloody Valentine

935
00:47:44,556 --> 00:47:48,876
Speaker 6: knee early teenage fan club me string bendi whiny stuff,

936
00:47:49,636 --> 00:47:51,476
Speaker 6: which is a real mess, but he managed to kind

937
00:47:51,476 --> 00:47:53,396
Speaker 6: of corral it into something that still works.

938
00:47:53,556 --> 00:47:55,436
Speaker 5: You're not a big string bender.

939
00:47:55,196 --> 00:47:57,716
Speaker 7: But that's yeah, No, I'm not usually you did on.

940
00:47:57,676 --> 00:47:59,916
Speaker 5: That and second Skin, which is the song that leads

941
00:47:59,956 --> 00:48:00,356
Speaker 5: the album.

942
00:48:00,516 --> 00:48:02,636
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's one of the ones I wrote early in

943
00:48:02,636 --> 00:48:06,036
Speaker 6: the morning. And it's just like the idea of those

944
00:48:06,076 --> 00:48:08,956
Speaker 6: times in life where I felt I was hiding some

945
00:48:09,196 --> 00:48:11,836
Speaker 6: thing or trying to present a certain way, you know,

946
00:48:11,876 --> 00:48:13,876
Speaker 6: which is not a lot. I've had a lot to hide,

947
00:48:13,916 --> 00:48:16,116
Speaker 6: but you know, I still have those moments and just

948
00:48:16,636 --> 00:48:19,836
Speaker 6: not feeling good in your in your skin. Yeah, and

949
00:48:19,996 --> 00:48:23,756
Speaker 6: just about that and about how I've started to feel better.

950
00:48:23,876 --> 00:48:26,876
Speaker 6: So it's kind of you know, chronicling that a little

951
00:48:26,876 --> 00:48:29,756
Speaker 6: bit and searching for better ways to feel.

952
00:48:30,516 --> 00:48:30,956
Speaker 7: What is it?

953
00:48:31,636 --> 00:48:33,556
Speaker 6: I tried so many new and old ways to die

954
00:48:33,596 --> 00:48:37,516
Speaker 6: and self improve, from divining with dead sticks to fall

955
00:48:37,516 --> 00:48:38,716
Speaker 6: in yogi hot moves.

956
00:48:38,756 --> 00:48:40,916
Speaker 7: That's like, you know, doing hot yoga for a while.

957
00:48:41,356 --> 00:48:44,796
Speaker 6: And then just making friends with that skin. Or maybe

958
00:48:44,836 --> 00:48:47,516
Speaker 6: it's mine. Maybe this is my brand new skin. Maybe

959
00:48:47,716 --> 00:48:49,996
Speaker 6: maybe I'm not hiding anything, maybe I'm just maybe I'm

960
00:48:50,036 --> 00:48:51,116
Speaker 6: just me and maybe I'm just here.

961
00:48:52,076 --> 00:48:52,436
Speaker 7: Yeah.

962
00:48:52,476 --> 00:48:55,276
Speaker 5: And the last song on the album, Oh there's the

963
00:48:55,316 --> 00:48:56,356
Speaker 5: loveliest lovely.

964
00:48:56,116 --> 00:48:59,076
Speaker 6: Song, Oh Thanks, And that's kind of a in a

965
00:48:59,516 --> 00:49:04,876
Speaker 6: really Fisher Price my first Riff kind of way, is

966
00:49:04,916 --> 00:49:08,596
Speaker 6: an attempt at kind of a baroque feel, the way

967
00:49:08,636 --> 00:49:11,796
Speaker 6: that line kind of drips down, you know, on one

968
00:49:11,796 --> 00:49:14,196
Speaker 6: finger moves, then the other finger moves when the one

969
00:49:14,196 --> 00:49:17,276
Speaker 6: finger stays, et cetera. Which I love those moments at

970
00:49:17,276 --> 00:49:19,716
Speaker 6: the end of bock Pieces where he hits the final

971
00:49:19,836 --> 00:49:21,956
Speaker 6: chord and then but then there's still some little modulations

972
00:49:21,956 --> 00:49:24,636
Speaker 6: inside it, some little changes inside. I find that really thrilling.

973
00:49:25,316 --> 00:49:28,956
Speaker 6: And then the rest is another kind of looking for

974
00:49:29,036 --> 00:49:30,196
Speaker 6: piece song.

975
00:49:30,596 --> 00:49:33,916
Speaker 5: Well, it is a very optimistic, great sounding record.

976
00:49:34,236 --> 00:49:34,556
Speaker 7: Thank you.

977
00:49:34,636 --> 00:49:36,036
Speaker 5: Do you want to play another song from it?

978
00:49:36,236 --> 00:49:38,316
Speaker 7: Sure? Can I play in front of me now?

979
00:49:38,516 --> 00:49:39,516
Speaker 5: Shure? Absolutely?

980
00:49:39,716 --> 00:49:42,036
Speaker 7: Okay, great, seeah, this goes.

981
00:49:54,276 --> 00:49:57,596
Speaker 3: I used to be dreaming when I was driving. I

982
00:49:57,716 --> 00:50:00,756
Speaker 3: used to be leaving when I was a raving. I

983
00:50:00,876 --> 00:50:04,276
Speaker 3: used to be calling when I was walking. I used

984
00:50:04,356 --> 00:50:07,596
Speaker 3: to be thinking when I was talking. I used to

985
00:50:07,636 --> 00:50:10,876
Speaker 3: be counting when I was sharing. I used to be

986
00:50:10,996 --> 00:50:14,636
Speaker 3: blanking when I was staring. I used to be rolling

987
00:50:15,076 --> 00:50:18,476
Speaker 3: when I was parking. I used to be raining when

988
00:50:18,556 --> 00:50:26,316
Speaker 3: I was poking. To day, I do what's in front

989
00:50:26,436 --> 00:50:32,156
Speaker 3: of me. Now to day, I do what's.

990
00:50:31,876 --> 00:50:33,476
Speaker 1: In front of me now.

991
00:50:33,756 --> 00:50:36,996
Speaker 3: I used to be stopping when I was trying. I

992
00:50:37,116 --> 00:50:40,476
Speaker 3: used to be landing before I was flying. I used

993
00:50:40,476 --> 00:50:44,356
Speaker 3: to be haunting, not just remembering. In the middle of summer,

994
00:50:44,956 --> 00:50:49,516
Speaker 3: I was decembering, always rewriting when I was reading, but

995
00:50:49,756 --> 00:50:50,636
Speaker 3: also doubting.

996
00:50:51,116 --> 00:50:54,396
Speaker 1: I was conceiving. I used to be dropping when I

997
00:50:54,476 --> 00:50:55,316
Speaker 1: was collecting.

998
00:50:55,596 --> 00:51:03,836
Speaker 3: I used to be building when I was dissecting. I

999
00:51:03,996 --> 00:51:09,956
Speaker 3: do what's in front of me now to day, I

1000
00:51:10,156 --> 00:51:12,556
Speaker 3: do what's in front of me, what's.

1001
00:51:12,316 --> 00:51:13,916
Speaker 1: In front of me?

1002
00:51:16,156 --> 00:51:19,316
Speaker 3: I do what's in front of me now. I used

1003
00:51:19,356 --> 00:51:23,276
Speaker 3: to be missing when I was kissing. Why wasn't a present?

1004
00:51:23,596 --> 00:51:26,476
Speaker 3: I could have been living. I used to be dodging

1005
00:51:26,836 --> 00:51:27,956
Speaker 3: when I was catching.

1006
00:51:28,236 --> 00:51:29,436
Speaker 1: I used to be dying.

1007
00:51:29,796 --> 00:51:32,596
Speaker 3: I could have been hatching. I used to be drowning

1008
00:51:32,956 --> 00:51:36,276
Speaker 3: when I was drinking. I was only masking. I could

1009
00:51:36,316 --> 00:51:39,596
Speaker 3: have been feeling. You used to surround me whenever you

1010
00:51:39,756 --> 00:51:42,556
Speaker 3: found me. I could have learned more from the friends

1011
00:51:42,756 --> 00:51:45,876
Speaker 3: around me. I used to be falling when I was

1012
00:51:45,996 --> 00:51:50,196
Speaker 3: leaning Catastrophe Carden. I could have been dreaming. I was

1013
00:51:50,356 --> 00:51:54,036
Speaker 3: Korean in looking for me that which I was relaxing.

1014
00:51:54,356 --> 00:52:01,756
Speaker 3: I could have been breathing today. I do what's in

1015
00:52:01,996 --> 00:52:07,836
Speaker 3: front of me now today.

1016
00:52:07,036 --> 00:52:08,476
Speaker 1: I do what's in front.

1017
00:52:08,596 --> 00:52:15,036
Speaker 3: I mean, Oh, there's too many lanes. There's too much

1018
00:52:15,076 --> 00:52:18,516
Speaker 3: to see in the frame at once. It's too much

1019
00:52:18,596 --> 00:52:27,316
Speaker 3: to contain. Oh, there's too much to rain. I can

1020
00:52:27,436 --> 00:52:37,956
Speaker 3: never explain it all too much for my friend. Do

1021
00:52:38,076 --> 00:52:40,956
Speaker 3: what's infront of me, what's in front of me?

1022
00:52:43,956 --> 00:52:45,556
Speaker 1: Do what's in front of me.

1023
00:52:45,956 --> 00:52:55,996
Speaker 5: Now, beautiful, Thank you so much for coming in.

1024
00:52:55,956 --> 00:52:58,436
Speaker 7: Man, Thanks for having me, joy, thank you, thank you,

1025
00:52:58,516 --> 00:52:58,836
Speaker 7: thank you.

1026
00:53:01,676 --> 00:53:04,516
Speaker 2: Thanks to Matthew Calls for taking us inside his creative process.

1027
00:53:04,556 --> 00:53:07,716
Speaker 2: I'm Not a Serf's latest album, moon Mare. You can

1028
00:53:07,756 --> 00:53:09,836
Speaker 2: hear all of our favorite songs from a surf on

1029
00:53:09,876 --> 00:53:13,396
Speaker 2: a playlist in the episode description. You can find this episode,

1030
00:53:13,436 --> 00:53:16,676
Speaker 2: along with past episodes, on YouTube dot com slash Broken

1031
00:53:16,716 --> 00:53:19,796
Speaker 2: Record Podcast, and be sure to follow us on Instagram

1032
00:53:19,836 --> 00:53:22,596
Speaker 2: at the Broken Record Pod. You can follow us on

1033
00:53:22,636 --> 00:53:26,516
Speaker 2: Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited

1034
00:53:26,556 --> 00:53:29,316
Speaker 2: by Leah Rose, with marketing help from Eric Sandler and

1035
00:53:29,396 --> 00:53:33,676
Speaker 2: Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tolliday. Broken Record is

1036
00:53:33,676 --> 00:53:37,036
Speaker 2: a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show

1037
00:53:37,156 --> 00:53:41,676
Speaker 2: and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin

1038
00:53:41,716 --> 00:53:44,756
Speaker 2: Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and

1039
00:53:44,796 --> 00:53:48,276
Speaker 2: ad free listening for four ninety nine a month. Look

1040
00:53:48,316 --> 00:53:52,076
Speaker 2: for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you

1041
00:53:52,196 --> 00:53:54,796
Speaker 2: like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review

1042
00:53:54,876 --> 00:53:58,036
Speaker 2: us on your podcast app Our theme musics by Kenny Beats.

1043
00:53:58,196 --> 00:53:59,276
Speaker 2: I'm justin Richmond.