Speaker 1: Hi, Catherine, Oh hi Chelsea, yea, Hi. Guess where it's
Speaker 1: snowed twenty inches last night? Oh my gosh, does have
Speaker 1: been Whistler Orca? Oh no, no, are you serious? Twenty
Speaker 1: foot waves? They have what are they called manholes? Or
Speaker 1: what are those called when they're in the streets cave in?
Speaker 1: Is that called a manhole? I mean the island is
Speaker 1: not prepared for snow. Maybe in the mountains. Its twenty
Speaker 1: inches of snow, and so every day told everyone to
Speaker 1: stay in, don't go outside. It was on the Daily Mail.
Speaker 1: It popped up on my Instagram this morning. And not
Speaker 1: that I read the Daily Mail because I don't. But
Speaker 1: we don't want us brother that, no, we don't. But
Speaker 1: my Orca, I think, just comes to me. You know,
Speaker 1: since our phones are all eavesdropping on me, can you
Speaker 1: believe that it is snowing. I'm in Whistler right now
Speaker 1: and it is snowing. Well, it's snowed last week in
Speaker 1: Los Angeles, in my backyard. So that's the world is
Speaker 1: over everyone. So we're just going to end this podcast
Speaker 1: right now because everyone should just take shelter. Good Bye.
Speaker 1: Hope you have enough owning Barrico to get you through.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's insane, I know, and I've heard
Speaker 1: LA is just the worst right now. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: it's been like pouring rain. My puppies have been like
Speaker 1: trying to potty train them. They're like, there's nowhere to go.
Speaker 1: It's flooded. So it's been interesting. I saw some kids
Speaker 1: surfing down the street in a Tuckerware bucket the other day.
Speaker 1: There was like the rivers going down the street and
Speaker 1: the gutters, and then there was a kid pulling another
Speaker 1: kid on a mini bike and the other kid was
Speaker 1: in like a Tuckerware tub and they were just zooming
Speaker 1: down the street. So that's that's the state of affairs
Speaker 1: right now. Listen. If you can't have a little fun
Speaker 1: and a Tuckerware tub, where can you find it. We
Speaker 1: went night skiing the other night after my birthday. We
Speaker 1: all decided it was snowing, snowing. It snowed like twenty
Speaker 1: centimeters whatever that means in America, and we were like
Speaker 1: all together, we went to apray and then everyone's like,
Speaker 1: let's go up to the top of the parking lots
Speaker 1: and have someone drop us off and then we could
Speaker 1: just ski down at night because it was all fresh
Speaker 1: and so like. Ten of us did it. It It was
Speaker 1: so much fun. Oh my god, it's nothing better than
Speaker 1: being in the snow at night. I don't know why.
Speaker 1: It's so beautiful the best. It is so beautiful. And
Speaker 1: I also had a great birthday this year. Again. I
Speaker 1: love celebrating my birthday and Whistler. It's got all my ingredients, skiing,
Speaker 1: capre skiing, Margarita's skiing, other Margarita's. Oh when I had
Speaker 1: my niece Charlie up here, who is a dream boat,
Speaker 1: such guy. She's ridiculous. She is just so cute and funny,
Speaker 1: and we skied. We should. We had her charging by
Speaker 1: the end of the week, and well she was here
Speaker 1: for like four days a solo. And then my friend Nick,
Speaker 1: who is my director on Chelsea Does, she was my DP.
Speaker 1: She came up and it was just so fun. I
Speaker 1: love I love having one on one time with my
Speaker 1: nieces and nephews. It's the best. I got shot down
Speaker 1: by a niece this week. Rejection from children is fierce.
Speaker 1: I know teenagers are trouble. Another reason not to have them,
Speaker 1: you know exactly exactly. It's like, if they're tiny, they're pooping,
Speaker 1: if they're three, they're mean to you, right, terrible twos,
Speaker 1: terrible threes, and then they turn into teenagers immediately after that,
Speaker 1: but no one tells you. They starts smelling at like
Speaker 1: eight smelling. Yeah, they start smelling bad at like eight.
Speaker 1: Well the boys, oh really, girls start smelling really I
Speaker 1: think girls start getting stuck. Oh oh, like tricky situation.
Speaker 1: I speaking of smelly. I went three days without taking
Speaker 1: a shower and skiing while I was up here because
Speaker 1: we had such a full house and it was NonStop action.
Speaker 1: And finally, like yesterday or the day before, everyone left
Speaker 1: and we went skiing again. I was like okay, And
Speaker 1: then I was like, okay, guys, I'm going home after
Speaker 1: skiing today, like no Appray, Like I'm wrecked for my birthday.
Speaker 1: I'm so tired. My body's aching. We had a huge
Speaker 1: powder day, so my thighs were burning. Yeah, and then
Speaker 1: of course, you know, they persuaded me to go to Appray.
Speaker 1: Twist my cut to one in the morning, I'm getting
Speaker 1: opped off at my house and we had adopted a
Speaker 1: giant baby, my friend Kelly and I her friend. We've
Speaker 1: decided he was our baby and he had to come
Speaker 1: sleep in one of our extra guest rooms, and I
Speaker 1: was like, wait, what happened. It's like the whole day
Speaker 1: got away from me. That's how it goes. I know's
Speaker 1: how one drink so yesterday. So I'm hibernating this week
Speaker 1: until my next batch of visitors come, which is Friday.
Speaker 1: And then we got you out of bed at seven
Speaker 1: in the morning. That's okay. I you know, I get
Speaker 1: up early anyway. I'm always up. Okay. So our guest
Speaker 1: today has a book out that you may have read.
Speaker 1: It's called Going There. Her daily newsletter is called wake
Speaker 1: Up Call. I get that every morning. It's a mix
Speaker 1: of news, culture and advice. She's the EP which is
Speaker 1: an executive producer of the new documentary No Ordinary Campaign,
Speaker 1: which is debuting at south By Southwest, and she is
Speaker 1: host of her podcast which is called Next Question. Please
Speaker 1: Welcome Katie Kirk. I Katie, what are you doing on
Speaker 1: the floor? Oh? Because we don't have a place to
Speaker 1: do this, so I'm just going to sit on the
Speaker 1: floor and honestly, it'll be fine, it will be comfortable.
Speaker 1: What are you two girls up to that you have
Speaker 1: that you're both sleeping in the same room and have
Speaker 1: nowhere else to record she's not sleeping in here, she's
Speaker 1: sleeping in the guest room. But we're in this big
Speaker 1: kind of echoe house and we thought this would be
Speaker 1: the best room. Is it? Is it? Okay? Yeah? Well
Speaker 1: that horrors there. It looks so weird, Atrianna, but I
Speaker 1: think it's a good look for you, Katie. It'll switch
Speaker 1: things up. People will be surprised by the way. My
Speaker 1: dad would say, it looks like I combed my hair
Speaker 1: with an egg beater. Hi, Hi, Hi, This is Katherine,
Speaker 1: my producer. I know Catherine. Hi, Catherine Hike. Oh, yes,
Speaker 1: you guys know each other because she's gonna be working
Speaker 1: with you now. She's gonna be helping us, which is
Speaker 1: also she's so great in my yelling. Oh sorry, I'm yelling.
Speaker 1: I'm yellow. Oh that's nice that you have someone who
Speaker 1: will tell you that. Oh my god, Katie, where did
Speaker 1: we start? Let's figure this out. How did we first meet?
Speaker 1: Was it an interview? I think it might have been
Speaker 1: an interview. I'm trying to remember when I took you
Speaker 1: to the White House Scorres Fund It's oh yeah, it
Speaker 1: was really that was our first date. It was and
Speaker 1: I think I just reached out to you because I
Speaker 1: thought you were fun and funny and that you would
Speaker 1: get a kick out of going to the White House
Speaker 1: Scorres fund It's dinner, which we did. We got a
Speaker 1: big kick out of it. That was a fun night.
Speaker 1: Remember we ended up in a car with two real randoms.
Speaker 1: I don't even remember. I remember who Do you remember
Speaker 1: who they were? I don't remember. The whole thing is
Speaker 1: a little bit of a blur to me, but I
Speaker 1: remember it was cute, Chelsea, because you were very nervous.
Speaker 1: Do you remember that? No, no, no, no, tell me,
Speaker 1: you were kind of I think you felt out of
Speaker 1: your element and you had never been to something like
Speaker 1: that and you were just a little a little jittery.
Speaker 1: And it was really sweet. And who else came that year?
Speaker 1: Was that the year Betty White came? And she was
Speaker 1: also my guest? Oh yeah, yeah, we all sat at
Speaker 1: the same table. Yeah, so I felt like I had
Speaker 1: the coolest table in the room. That's a cool event, actually,
Speaker 1: the White House Correspondence Center. It's really really like a fun,
Speaker 1: fun night because it's not a lot of Republicans go,
Speaker 1: if any, and so that's always a win. Well, that
Speaker 1: was sort of back in the day. It was pretty bipartisan, honestly,
Speaker 1: and I think when Trump became president, I think they
Speaker 1: stopped having them. Then there was the pandemic, and so
Speaker 1: it used to be a really kind of jocular bipartisan affair,
Speaker 1: and it was really fun because the president hits up
Speaker 1: and makes a really funny speech and it was a
Speaker 1: lot of fun. And then I think we went to
Speaker 1: the party. Did we go to the party at the
Speaker 1: French embassy that Bloomberg usually hosted or yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: that's where we went. I remember us being in a
Speaker 1: car with someone really really famous, like a famous director
Speaker 1: or somebody I can't even remember. Yeah, I can't remember
Speaker 1: for either who was that? And then I looked to
Speaker 1: my left and it was another random and I've just
Speaker 1: thought this is one of those nights. But we had
Speaker 1: a couple of those nights because we had our Woody
Speaker 1: Allen Knight, which we've both talked about, where we accidentally
Speaker 1: had dinner with Woody Allen and SUNI and some other unmentionables.
Speaker 1: Should we retell that story because or do you feel
Speaker 1: like everybody's heard it? I know you put it in
Speaker 1: your comedy routine. I think everybody has heard it, But
Speaker 1: I mean there's no well you know what you tell it,
Speaker 1: because I haven't heard you tell it. I've accepted the
Speaker 1: book of course. Yeah. Yeah. So basically I was working
Speaker 1: at CBS News. It was I believe was it January
Speaker 1: or February or something like that. In the winter, Chelsea,
Speaker 1: You and I had made plans to have dinner, which
Speaker 1: I was really looking forward to. I got an email
Speaker 1: from Peggy Siegel, who was this sort of big publicist
Speaker 1: who's kind of fallen from grace now, and she said,
Speaker 1: would you like to have dinner at the largest single
Speaker 1: family home in Manhattan? And I was like, well that
Speaker 1: sounds in preaking, you know, be interesting to see some big,
Speaker 1: beautiful home where people usually live in pretty small apartments
Speaker 1: in New York City. So I said, okay, great, and
Speaker 1: she said it's going to be honoring Prince Andrew. George
Speaker 1: Stephanopolis is going to be there, and she mentioned some
Speaker 1: other newspeople and I thought, oh boy. Well, the royal
Speaker 1: wedding was coming up that spring and William and Kate
Speaker 1: were getting married, and I thought, you know, any end
Speaker 1: to a member of the royal family is a good inn.
Speaker 1: Well that turns out all that's what that's what she said.
Speaker 1: But anyway, so I thought, gosh, I should probably go
Speaker 1: to this, and I called you and I said, Chelsea,
Speaker 1: I've just been invited to this dinner. Do you want
Speaker 1: to go? It sounds like it might be interesting. It's
Speaker 1: for Prince Andrew. I don't know if I even mentioned
Speaker 1: that when I called you. I think I must have,
Speaker 1: and I said do you want to go? And you
Speaker 1: were like, sure, why not? So I was dating someone
Speaker 1: at the time, so he came to it turns out,
Speaker 1: and I googled him as I almost got there. I
Speaker 1: think I met you there, but I remember googling Jeffrey
Speaker 1: Epstein and thinking, oh, well, he was convicted of something
Speaker 1: in Florida. It sounded sleazy, but it didn't sound horrible
Speaker 1: and criminal and disgusting as now we know his behavior was.
Speaker 1: So I thought, oh, this is pretty sketchy, but I
Speaker 1: guess I'm in now. And so we walked in and
Speaker 1: there was this whole assortment of people, including George Stephanopolis
Speaker 1: I believe Charlie Rose was there, and yes, Woody Allen
Speaker 1: and Sunny and it was probably about what would you say, Chelsea,
Speaker 1: like twenty four people. Oh, I remember it being so
Speaker 1: much smaller. But you know, my memory is not great
Speaker 1: because I didn't even remember that you brought a date.
Speaker 1: So really, yeah, it was it John, No, it was Brooks,
Speaker 1: the good young guy I was dating. Okay, Okay, So no,
Speaker 1: I thought it was a small party, like eight or
Speaker 1: ten people. No, No, No, well, I think actually it's
Speaker 1: probably somewhere between ten and twenty four. I think I
Speaker 1: own remember the key players, is why I remember bring it.
Speaker 1: I remember Charlie Rose walking out, just shitfaced, leaving his coat,
Speaker 1: and then coming back an hour later, because you and
Speaker 1: I were leaving, and apparently Brooks we were leaving, and
Speaker 1: then he came back and he was kind of like
Speaker 1: walking down the street, very disoriented, and he was like,
Speaker 1: I'm looking for my coat. I'm looking. I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: I had no idea. So many people were such a
Speaker 1: hot mess, you know. I like Charlie Rose acts like
Speaker 1: this at that time. He was a respectable newsman too,
Speaker 1: So I remember that much from the night. But I
Speaker 1: remember kind of sitting in I almost think like a
Speaker 1: horseshoe shaped table situation, maybe in the living room. And
Speaker 1: I titled that chapter of my book Lasagna Was Served,
Speaker 1: because they served lasagna in these sort of shallow bulls.
Speaker 1: And then before that he'd kind of given us a
Speaker 1: tour of the house, and I remember he had those
Speaker 1: stubbs and wooten velvet slippers on and torn jeans and
Speaker 1: like a velvet maybe a velvet blazer, and he was
Speaker 1: holding a drink. And I really didn't know very much
Speaker 1: about him. I remember the artwork being were weird. But
Speaker 1: after dinner, that's when you went up to Woody Allen.
Speaker 1: I was at the end of dinner because I remember
Speaker 1: the living are. We were all seated because I kept
Speaker 1: from seeing all these people walk in. You know, when
Speaker 1: I saw Woody Allen and SUNI walk in, I remember going, whoa, whoa, whoa,
Speaker 1: what is this? And then I didn't obviously know Jeffrey
Speaker 1: either Epstein. I knew Prince Andrew. I know who Peggy
Speaker 1: Siegel is, yeah, and I don't remember him being there
Speaker 1: at all. George, No, Charlie Rose is the other person
Speaker 1: I remember, and then I feel like there was one other.
Speaker 1: But I know when you just said that, I was like,
Speaker 1: oh he was there. Yeah, Well that's great to know.
Speaker 1: Good information. What a high ratio of predators, though, I
Speaker 1: know when I look back I'm like, oh my god.
Speaker 1: Almost every person in that room was canceled. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: felt like the den of an equity or something. But
Speaker 1: after dinner, Chelsea, everyone was sort of sitting around, and
Speaker 1: I remember seeing a friend of mine who's a doctor
Speaker 1: who knew Jeffrey Epstein talking to him and a female doctor,
Speaker 1: really beautiful woman. And then Chelsea walks up to Woody
Speaker 1: Allen and Sunny and I don't think I heard you
Speaker 1: say it. You just told me later and said, I
Speaker 1: you know, I'm Chelsea Handler. And you started chit chatting
Speaker 1: and you said, how did you two meet? Now you
Speaker 1: knew how they met? Right, you were just well, of
Speaker 1: course I was giving it to him. But it was
Speaker 1: at dinner when we were getting dessert. We were seated
Speaker 1: at the table because I was seated right across from them,
Speaker 1: and I was next to you. You were on my right,
Speaker 1: and they were across from me, And the whole time
Speaker 1: at dinner, all I was waiting was to say something
Speaker 1: to him, because as a woman, I was like, there's
Speaker 1: no way that I'm not going to say something to
Speaker 1: him to make him know that he's out completely out
Speaker 1: of line. But you did hear me, because you said, Okay, Chelsea,
Speaker 1: time to go. Katie mentioned that this happened. I was like, wait,
Speaker 1: that was real. She really said that. It wasn't just
Speaker 1: a bit. I just figured it was like a bit.
Speaker 1: Oh No, that part I remember perfectly because because I
Speaker 1: had to contain myself for so long throughout the dinner
Speaker 1: to not embarrass everybody, you know what I mean as
Speaker 1: a guest, I was like, how do I play this?
Speaker 1: And I remember because I was talking to Woody Allen
Speaker 1: during the dinner trying to be friendly, and we were
Speaker 1: talking about stand up and movies and all of it.
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh. And then I was like,
Speaker 1: don't don't do this. Don't get sucked in and think
Speaker 1: that you like somebody. You don't like this person, you
Speaker 1: don't like them. I had to have this internal dialogue
Speaker 1: with myself the whole time. Yeah, and I was definitely
Speaker 1: tipsy because I'm me one weird. Thing I remember is
Speaker 1: when we left, Brooks looked at me and said, did
Speaker 1: you notice how young the girls were who were taking
Speaker 1: our coats? Oh? God, so he noticed, well he did,
Speaker 1: and he mentioned it to me. So now, in hindsight,
Speaker 1: that's a very perceptive and really upsetting comment m. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and we've been through We've hung out a lot of
Speaker 1: times because we had boyfriends that both had places, right,
Speaker 1: we were both spending time in Shelter Island for a while.
Speaker 1: You were about to get married, and I've met your daughters,
Speaker 1: who you know are fabulous and so yeah, we've known
Speaker 1: each other for many, many years. Yeah, and of course
Speaker 1: I follow you from Afar and love watching you not
Speaker 1: only with your Santa, but I'm obsessed with your Instagram.
Speaker 1: So I enjoyed watching you skiing and your bikini recently.
Speaker 1: You're a good skier, Chelsea. Oh thanks, I've been you
Speaker 1: know what, Katie, I've been working so hard at becoming
Speaker 1: a good skier. It was like my dream as a
Speaker 1: little kid. I was like, I just want to be
Speaker 1: a great skier. Well, you have very good form in
Speaker 1: every way, but I you know, when did you start?
Speaker 1: Because I started skiing at forty five. I'm sixty six
Speaker 1: now and I can ski okay, like I can do
Speaker 1: a semi easy blue, but I have never felt that freedom,
Speaker 1: that total relaxation that good skiers feel. Yeah, it's just
Speaker 1: time spent. Right. I bought a place in Whistler, and
Speaker 1: I just spent months here at a time and just
Speaker 1: skiing over and over with an instructor, you know, a
Speaker 1: former racer who's giving me technique, so I'm not just
Speaker 1: running around the mountain like a lunatic. And that's helped
Speaker 1: a lot too. I think part of the problem, Chelsea
Speaker 1: is I only ski once a year. Yeah, it's hard
Speaker 1: to improve when you're ending. You don't put the effort in,
Speaker 1: or you don't have the time. I have to tell
Speaker 1: you my instructor is my father in law, Herb, and
Speaker 1: Herb is ninety one and he, oh, don't tell anyone,
Speaker 1: he's still a ski instructor in Aspen. Oh my god. Really,
Speaker 1: how cute is that he is? Well, he is the
Speaker 1: most amazing person. I mean, he is in incredible shape.
Speaker 1: Not only does he carry his skis, he carries mine.
Speaker 1: He is obviously an excellent ski or. He's been doing
Speaker 1: this for like forty years. He was in business and
Speaker 1: he cashed out, and his boys, one of whom is
Speaker 1: my husband, thought oh he's going to do this for
Speaker 1: a little while. No, forty five or fifty years later,
Speaker 1: he's still doing it and he's just amazing, and he's
Speaker 1: so much fun to be with. And he has helped
Speaker 1: me become a mediocre skier. Yeah. Yeah, And I like
Speaker 1: mountain culture, you know, like I like the idea of
Speaker 1: going for a run, having a nice leisurely lunch, then
Speaker 1: going for more skiing and then app right. Like I
Speaker 1: just I'm home every night by seven thirty or eight
Speaker 1: o'clock most exhausted. I exhausted, and then I get a
Speaker 1: massage or I read at night. I mean, I'm just
Speaker 1: so happy in my little winter cabin life that I've
Speaker 1: created for myself. So are you there by yourself? Do
Speaker 1: you bring friends or people come through? I bet your
Speaker 1: sister comes right. Yeah, my niece was just here for
Speaker 1: my birthday. My friends were here, they just all left.
Speaker 1: So then I have a couple of down days and
Speaker 1: then I have a new group coming in this weekend. Fun.
Speaker 1: So yeah, people come through all the time. It's really fun.
Speaker 1: Oh that's great. Where have you been spending your vacation time?
Speaker 1: Do you guys go to the Hampton's mostly in that area.
Speaker 1: Right now, we're in a rental property in Los Angeles.
Speaker 1: So for the past five or six years, during the
Speaker 1: dog days of winter in New York, we've usually come
Speaker 1: out here for six weeks to two months, because now
Speaker 1: when you can work remotely, and now that we have
Speaker 1: our own company and everything, I don't have to be
Speaker 1: in a studio. So that's been a really nice change
Speaker 1: of pace. But it is the weather Chelsea here. I know.
Speaker 1: I can't believe you just said you were in LA.
Speaker 1: I would have thought I would thought you were going
Speaker 1: to say you're in the Happens or something. It is
Speaker 1: so bad in La right now. It's the worst time.
Speaker 1: I have a very good piece of good news to
Speaker 1: report because it's sunny right now, and I can't believe it. Atriana,
Speaker 1: who works with me, who's here for a couple of days,
Speaker 1: that she feels like she's taken a party drug. So
Speaker 1: let's talk about John and talk about your marriage a
Speaker 1: little bit, because you guys have a very great thing
Speaker 1: going and he's a great support ballast for your life
Speaker 1: as well as you to him. Well, we're gonna talk
Speaker 1: about your cancer advocacy work also because you lost your
Speaker 1: first husband to cancer, you lost your sister, and this
Speaker 1: is a very important kind of lifelong project for you.
Speaker 1: Just so I feel part of the whole mission. I
Speaker 1: got cancer too, exactly, So tell us what the update
Speaker 1: on that is the cancer. John, Well, let's talked about
Speaker 1: the cancer first. Okay, all right, I kind of ruined
Speaker 1: the flow, didn't I let's talk about your health first.
Speaker 1: My health is good. And by the way, Katie, I've
Speaker 1: let me just interrupted. I had no idea you were
Speaker 1: sixty six years old. You are so cute, you have
Speaker 1: never not and I know that you talked about in
Speaker 1: your book how annoying it is to be cute. But
Speaker 1: I have to say, like, you have one of those
Speaker 1: faces that you will never look old. I don't know
Speaker 1: about that, Chelsea. No, you don't. You just look you
Speaker 1: always look young, like it doesn't matter what your age is.
Speaker 1: I do have kind of a young vibe, kind of
Speaker 1: a yeah yeah, lively young vibe. So thank you. You're
Speaker 1: nice to say that. But in terms of my health,
Speaker 1: I'm fine, Knockwood only because when I was diagnosed with this, Chelsea,
Speaker 1: I wasn't that surprised because cancer has been such a
Speaker 1: fixture in my life. But I felt so lucky because
Speaker 1: both Jay and Emily were diagnosed with stage four cancer.
Speaker 1: And it's all about when you're diagnosed. That's why I've
Speaker 1: been on my sort of relentless advocacy about screening because
Speaker 1: if you detect cancer early, that's when it's most treatable,
Speaker 1: right when it hasn't metastasized what it hasn't spread through
Speaker 1: your body and landed on another another organ. So I
Speaker 1: didn't realize I hadn't gone for my annual mammogram, went
Speaker 1: and got a mamogram, didn't expect anything weird. But my
Speaker 1: breast radiologist, who's I think one of the best in
Speaker 1: the world, Susan Drossman, said, you know how the technician
Speaker 1: calls the doctor in and they're looking at the scan.
Speaker 1: And I have always gotten an ultrasound because I have
Speaker 1: very dense breasts, which can only be indicated on a mamogram,
Speaker 1: and forty five percent of women forty and over have
Speaker 1: what are considered dense breass. And dense breass mean that
Speaker 1: the breast density the tissue shows up white in the mamograham,
Speaker 1: So it makes it very hard for the radiologists to
Speaker 1: identify a tumor or an abnormality. As Susan says, it's
Speaker 1: like looking for a snowball against a backdrop of snow.
Speaker 1: So I've always gotten pressed ultrasounds and we were videotaping
Speaker 1: it to do a little tape piece on the importance
Speaker 1: of getting screened. And Adriana, who's here with me now,
Speaker 1: who's sort of we're like freakin frack. She Susan said,
Speaker 1: you need to stop filming. You know. She was filming
Speaker 1: on her iPhone and we were just going to put
Speaker 1: together a little piece. And I said, no, it's okay,
Speaker 1: she can keep filming. And she's like, no, tell her
Speaker 1: to stop. And so she said, I'd see something very suspicious.
Speaker 1: I'm going to do a biopsy this afternoon. Can you
Speaker 1: stick around? Long story short, it was after getting a
Speaker 1: lump back to me, a stage one a hormone receptor
Speaker 1: positive breast tumor. So I got radiation for fifteen days,
Speaker 1: a lump back to me prior to the radiation, and
Speaker 1: then you take something called an aromatase inhibitor for five years,
Speaker 1: which suppresses the estrogen. The biggest bummer about this, so
Speaker 1: my cancer, as my surgeon said, is the good one.
Speaker 1: It's not only treatable, it's curable. The only bummer about
Speaker 1: it is I desperately miss my estrogen. Well that's my
Speaker 1: next question. Yes, how does that affect someone of your age?
Speaker 1: Because we need HRT at a certain age. YEA right. Well,
Speaker 1: I had been on hormone replacement therapy, although my doctor
Speaker 1: says she does not think that contributed to my breast cancer.
Speaker 1: But I was on the patch for probably ten years.
Speaker 1: So I had to take the patch off immediately. And
Speaker 1: now I take these pills that further suppress estrogen. And
Speaker 1: what can I say, it sucks. Estrogen is a wonder hormone.
Speaker 1: It helps with brain fog, it helps with skin dryness,
Speaker 1: dryness everywhere, if you know what I'm saying. And so
Speaker 1: it's not fun, but it's a small price to pay
Speaker 1: considering what other people go through. What have been the
Speaker 1: worst kind of or the biggest side effects that you've had.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I have very dry skin, and
Speaker 1: I had when I was a little girl, I had egzema,
Speaker 1: like on my arms, and so I was starting to
Speaker 1: get really dry skin even when I was on the patch.
Speaker 1: So I think it's just made it worse. And so
Speaker 1: that's really the most significant I know it sounds stupid,
Speaker 1: but it's bothersome. Does it help if you're just constantly
Speaker 1: glathering up your face like you know, sah done moisturizer.
Speaker 1: It does, But I just don't do that. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm kind of lazy and land and you know, I'll
Speaker 1: do it after I get out of the shower, and
Speaker 1: then I'll it's just not something I do. I should
Speaker 1: do it every night before I go to bed and
Speaker 1: all that, but I'm usually too tired and too lazy.
Speaker 1: But you know, I haven't noticed a problem with brain fog. Sometimes,
Speaker 1: I like a lot of people my age, and anyone
Speaker 1: my age listening will know that I kind of have
Speaker 1: to think of words or I don't quite have the
Speaker 1: recall I used to have. I saw somebody at Craig's
Speaker 1: the other night who's a very big guy in the
Speaker 1: TV industry, and I was like, oh, I can't remember
Speaker 1: his name, and then I saw LaVar Burton, which was
Speaker 1: very exciting. But so I really haven't noticed much of
Speaker 1: a change. And you know, it's hard because as you
Speaker 1: get older, it's hard to parse out like what's causing what.
Speaker 1: And I'm stiff and my joints are kind of stiff.
Speaker 1: I do a lot of pilates. But is that because
Speaker 1: of the estrogen then I'm not taking or is it
Speaker 1: just sort of a natural part of aging. So one
Speaker 1: of the things I really wanted to come out of
Speaker 1: my breast cancer diagnosis is I want women to a
Speaker 1: find out if they have dense breasts, to be their
Speaker 1: own advocates, find out if they have dense breasts, and
Speaker 1: then ask if they can do additional screening because a
Speaker 1: lot of breast cancers are missed in women with dense
Speaker 1: breast because mammograms aren't sufficient. So I went down to
Speaker 1: Capitol Hill and did a press conference with a congresswoman
Speaker 1: from Connecticut named Rosa do Loro. She introduced legislation John
Speaker 1: makes fun of me, goes, who do you think you are?
Speaker 1: Nancy Pelosi? But she introduced legislation that will require insurance
Speaker 1: companies to cover breast ultrasounds in women with dense breasts,
Speaker 1: because right now many of them don't, and of course
Speaker 1: many women can't afford it. So I just want women
Speaker 1: to really be smart about their testing and make sure
Speaker 1: that they get all the screening they need. Thank you
Speaker 1: for this public service announcement. I'm king no, thank you
Speaker 1: for this public service announcement. Let's talk about your relationship
Speaker 1: and meeting someone later in life in the way that
Speaker 1: you did, and how that's impacted your family dynamic with
Speaker 1: your girls, and with you and how this is different,
Speaker 1: you know obviously than your prior relationship. Every relationships different. Sorry,
Speaker 1: some of the highs and like inspirational things that you
Speaker 1: can share with us for people who are listening. Well,
Speaker 1: it's been a joy and I've really I'm so happy
Speaker 1: that I met John and that we found each other.
Speaker 1: You know, he's just a good company. He's fun to
Speaker 1: be with. Of course, occasionally get on each other's nerves.
Speaker 1: He bugs me, I bug him, but he's really he's
Speaker 1: just a solid person. He is a happy person. He
Speaker 1: loves adventure, although he's kind of boring with his restaurant choices.
Speaker 1: We go kind of a square mile around our apartment.
Speaker 1: I'm like, muhlnerd, can we like mix it up a
Speaker 1: little bit? But he's got a great family. They have
Speaker 1: been an additional gift. He's one of three boys. And
Speaker 1: you know, I love his parents. Both my parents have
Speaker 1: died and Jay's parents died a number of years ago.
Speaker 1: So Herbie and Paula treat Ellie and Carry like their granddaughters.
Speaker 1: I mean, they really think of them as their granddaughters.
Speaker 1: You know. It was hard because Ellie, Carrie and I
Speaker 1: were like the three Musketeers for so long. And when
Speaker 1: we got engaged, they came out to the Hampton's and
Speaker 1: I took them into a room and I showed them
Speaker 1: my engagement ring and they both burst into tears, and
Speaker 1: they weren't really happy tears. I think they were just
Speaker 1: shocked and worried that this was going to change things.
Speaker 1: But of course it hasn't. He's just enriched our lives.
Speaker 1: And he's got two wonderful kids as well. And we're
Speaker 1: too old to be the Brady bunch. You know. My
Speaker 1: kids are grown, his kids are grown, but they all
Speaker 1: have a really nice relationship, and I just feel extraordinarily lucky.
Speaker 1: But I tell everyone, since I know this is an
Speaker 1: advice show, is you know, you have to be intentional
Speaker 1: if you want a partner, and I'm kind of a
Speaker 1: partner person. You have to tell people. You have to
Speaker 1: ask people. So when I asked my friend Molly heal
Speaker 1: Fit at spinning class if her husband, who was the
Speaker 1: chief of trauma surgery at the Hospital for Special Surgery,
Speaker 1: I said, Molly, does Dave know any doctors? I'm so
Speaker 1: did in medicine and science. I've learned so much about cancer.
Speaker 1: I think i'd enjoy dating a doctor, and she said,
Speaker 1: we don't have I don't think we know any doctors,
Speaker 1: but we do know this banker named John Muhlner. And
Speaker 1: I was like, does he have a pulse? Has he
Speaker 1: been to has he ever been to a doctor? Because
Speaker 1: that will all suci And so he finally called me,
Speaker 1: and he was funny. You know, right away he just
Speaker 1: had an easiness and a fun personality and I just
Speaker 1: liked him immediately felt comfortable. He was from Chicago. I
Speaker 1: like midwesterners, Chelsea. They're just a little different in a
Speaker 1: good way. They're just less pretentious. I know that's such
Speaker 1: a generalization about millions of people, but anyway, so it's
Speaker 1: all worked out and I'm really happy, and as I said,
Speaker 1: I feel very, very very lucky. And also I think
Speaker 1: what you said as a salient point is having your
Speaker 1: girl's reaction thinking there's going to be some sort of subtraction,
Speaker 1: and instead there's an enhancement. And addition, everything he's bringing
Speaker 1: to the table is actually wonderful. His parents, you know,
Speaker 1: his kids, all of those things, and those elements, his intelligence.
Speaker 1: You know, he's the CEO of our company. He's got
Speaker 1: he's a great businessman, you know, working with your partner
Speaker 1: spouse is not always easy, and we're both pretty strong willed,
Speaker 1: but his skills in building this company, Chelsea, we have
Speaker 1: like forty plus employees. We're working with purpose driven brands.
Speaker 1: I have a podcast, we have a newsletter. We have
Speaker 1: a million subscribers newsletter, which is great, you guys. I
Speaker 1: read it every single morning, Chelsea wake up Call. It's
Speaker 1: called So if you haven't signed up for that, please do.
Speaker 1: It's a great way to get your news in the morning.
Speaker 1: And it's got a mix of everything, so it's not
Speaker 1: like just you're just reading about politics. It's got like
Speaker 1: pop culture and health and wellness and yes and human
Speaker 1: interest stories, all of those things. So yeah, you go
Speaker 1: to Katiekirk dot com to sign up shameless plug. But anyway,
Speaker 1: that's that's John. Yeah, well, thank you for making sure
Speaker 1: we spoke of about him. Okay, So we have a
Speaker 1: couple of letters that people have written in and then
Speaker 1: then I think we have one live call Captain tell
Speaker 1: us what we're in store for Well, I mean it's
Speaker 1: all on the themes that we've touched on today. It's
Speaker 1: relationships and starting over, it's breast cancer. So Katie I
Speaker 1: know you have talked about it all, so I thought
Speaker 1: these questions would be perfect for you. Okay, great, great,
Speaker 1: but we'll take a quick break and we'll be right
Speaker 1: back with Katie and Chelsea. And we're back. We're back.
Speaker 1: Well today, I thought we might start with our caller.
Speaker 1: She's a teacher, so we got to get her back
Speaker 1: to her students. But she says, dear Chelsea. I got
Speaker 1: together with my husband ten years ago after two years
Speaker 1: of close friendship. In that time, my husband battled a
Speaker 1: heroin addiction. For the first five years of our relationship,
Speaker 1: he was in and out of rehab and recovery. Although
Speaker 1: it wasn't easy, I do think him being in recovery
Speaker 1: made me a better person. I learned to focus on myself.
Speaker 1: I learned how to set better boundaries in all my relationships,
Speaker 1: and through it all, our relationships still remained a very
Speaker 1: good one. We've always communicated well, loved each other sincerely,
Speaker 1: and had a relationship based on true friendship. In July
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, we decided to finally get married. Our
Speaker 1: wedding day was the happiest day of my life, and
Speaker 1: since our wedding day, we've been having a true honeymoon period.
Speaker 1: The amount of love we have for each other is
Speaker 1: honestly overwhelming. Things were finally looking up after years with
Speaker 1: dealing with the drama of relapse and recovery. He had
Speaker 1: found stability in sobriety, a good job, and Hay had goals.
Speaker 1: We bought a house together last September, and things were
Speaker 1: going better than I had ever imagined. Then in December,
Speaker 1: I found out he was sleeping with this coworker. This
Speaker 1: is something I never saw coming and could not have
Speaker 1: prepared myself for. We went from mentioning daily how grateful
Speaker 1: we were for each other to him moving out and
Speaker 1: pursuing a relationship with another much younger by the way woman.
Speaker 1: To say and devastated is an understatement. This feels to
Speaker 1: me a lot like a relapse. It happened suddenly after
Speaker 1: he stopped taking care of himself, going to meetings, and
Speaker 1: communicating with his sponsor and friends in recovery. I married
Speaker 1: him fully knowing that there was a possibility he could relapse,
Speaker 1: but I never knew how this could happen. Since he
Speaker 1: moved out just before Christmas, he has moved into an apartment,
Speaker 1: continued dating as coworker, and basically ignored my existence. He's
Speaker 1: given me no indication that he's interested in working on
Speaker 1: himself or our relationship. But I'm having such a hard
Speaker 1: time letting him go. Do I wait for him to
Speaker 1: figure his shit out? Do I move on? How do
Speaker 1: I let go? Elizabeth? God, that is so sad, so brutal.
Speaker 1: Hi Elizabeth, you're here, Oh, Hi, Elizabeth. I'm so sorry, Elizabeth,
Speaker 1: this happened. And I can imagine how devastating this is.
Speaker 1: And it sounds like you were so important to his
Speaker 1: journey and then to have this happened is awful. By
Speaker 1: the way, you look so young. How could this woman
Speaker 1: be much younger? What is she eleven? And how old
Speaker 1: are you? I want to echo what Katie said, I'm
Speaker 1: so sorry. I'm so sorry. Heartbreak is the way it
Speaker 1: feels like it's the worst thing and that it is
Speaker 1: the most unrecoverable thing. But it is not, and you
Speaker 1: will recover. And I said this the other day to
Speaker 1: my friend and because we were talking, and I know,
Speaker 1: it's like, sometimes when we can't get ourselves out of
Speaker 1: situations by ourselves, the universe has a way of getting
Speaker 1: us out of those situations. And even though it doesn't
Speaker 1: feel like he's doing you a favor, and he has
Speaker 1: several issues with drugs, with the cheating, with all of
Speaker 1: these things. This is a way for you to have
Speaker 1: him out of your life and really reassess, I think
Speaker 1: what drew you to him in the first place, what
Speaker 1: allowed you to trust him in the first place and
Speaker 1: have so much faith in him, and kind of recalibrate
Speaker 1: what you're willing to accept in the future moving forward,
Speaker 1: or whether it's him coming back in six months, which
Speaker 1: is a possibility, and you have to decide what you're
Speaker 1: going to do with that if and when that happens,
Speaker 1: and if it doesn't happen, what are you going to
Speaker 1: do to prepare yourself to be in a real, loving
Speaker 1: relationship that is reciprocal where you don't have to worry
Speaker 1: about somebody going off the rails because it was intense, intense, intense, intense,
Speaker 1: and then disappear like that's not what any responsible human does.
Speaker 1: You sit down and you have a conversation saying, I'm
Speaker 1: having these feelings for another person or I've acted on
Speaker 1: these feelings and I'm confused. You don't just take off
Speaker 1: and ignore this person that's been by your side I agree.
Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds so cruel that he You know,
Speaker 1: people do fall in love with other people, it happens.
Speaker 1: But the fact that he has been so cruel and
Speaker 1: callous and completely cut you out of his life. But
Speaker 1: one thing I wanted to say that Chelsea mentioned is
Speaker 1: it's so interesting who we're drawn to. You know, were
Speaker 1: you drawn to him because you wanted to save him,
Speaker 1: that you wanted to fix him, that you wanted to
Speaker 1: help him. Is there something in your past, in your
Speaker 1: relationships with your family or with your parents, that maybe
Speaker 1: make you gravitate to people like this who are sort
Speaker 1: of dangerous and living on the edge. And even if
Speaker 1: he was getting better, I thought it was interesting too
Speaker 1: that you described this as a relapse, like maybe one
Speaker 1: addiction replacing another, the high of almost an illicit romance
Speaker 1: replacing the high of drugs. And I don't know much
Speaker 1: about that, but I thought that was an interesting use
Speaker 1: of words, did you, Chelsea? Yeah, absolutely, it does sound
Speaker 1: like a transference, right, like you go from one thing
Speaker 1: to the other. Do you know if he's had a relapse.
Speaker 1: I don't think he's used drugs or alcohol. A lot
Speaker 1: of the like warning signs of a relapse. We're coming up.
Speaker 1: Before I found out, which is how I found out,
Speaker 1: I started getting a little bit suspicious. I thought that
Speaker 1: he relapsed on drugs, and then I found out that
Speaker 1: it was an affair. And like I've spoken to his sponsor.
Speaker 1: His sponsor agrees it's very much like relapsed behavior. But
Speaker 1: he's in such denial, like he does not want to
Speaker 1: hear it, and he gets super defensive anytime anybody accuses
Speaker 1: him of needing mental health help right now? And when
Speaker 1: was the last time you spoke with him? Well, I
Speaker 1: spoke with him on Sunday because he wants to talk
Speaker 1: about Dad. But he did tell me on Sunday that
Speaker 1: he's no longer with that girl, but that he still
Speaker 1: doesn't want to be married to me anymore. And you
Speaker 1: have this house together, yeah, And so what's the plan there?
Speaker 1: Have you gotten that far yet? I know I'm not moving.
Speaker 1: I'm not selling the house. I put a significant portion
Speaker 1: of my savings into the house, like the down deposit,
Speaker 1: and it wouldn't make any sense for me to move
Speaker 1: because rent anywhere I have to dogs, and rent anywhere
Speaker 1: with two dogs would be more expensive than what my
Speaker 1: mortgage is. But he's under the impression that we'll just
Speaker 1: sign papers and he'll get off scot free and just
Speaker 1: live a life that has no repercussions for his actions.
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like his behavior alone is going
Speaker 1: to help you get through this quicker, as painful as
Speaker 1: it feels. He's like disassociating himself from your prior relationship.
Speaker 1: And I do think you are dodging a major bullet
Speaker 1: of like more pain and more grief. I don't think
Speaker 1: that you should be holding onto the idea that maybe
Speaker 1: you guys can reconcile, because hey, he needs a ton
Speaker 1: of therapy and you don't have time for that. Like
Speaker 1: I would rather see you take this time to really
Speaker 1: get centered and grounded and read all the books that
Speaker 1: you can read about what that means for you. There's
Speaker 1: a great book I mentioned all the time on this podcast,
Speaker 1: Letting Go, by David Hawkings, which is very deep and
Speaker 1: very meta, but it is about letting the world stop
Speaker 1: resisting your reality. You know, whatever ever is happening, Just
Speaker 1: deal with what's happening and the situation without trying to push,
Speaker 1: move or change it, aligning yourself and it makes recovery
Speaker 1: at heartbreak so much easier because there are doors that
Speaker 1: are going to open because of this closure that you
Speaker 1: haven't seen yet, and life is going to take a
Speaker 1: different shape for you, and you have to be inspired
Speaker 1: by that and move towards that. If you can understand
Speaker 1: what I'm saying there, Yeah, that's what I'm having a
Speaker 1: hard time with is just letting go, honestly, especially because
Speaker 1: it's a relapse, because I married him knowing that he
Speaker 1: could relapse, but I did not know that an affair
Speaker 1: could be a relapse. I thought it would be drugs
Speaker 1: or alcohol in some ways, Are you excusing his behavior
Speaker 1: and saying, well, this is the personality of an addict. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And like I married him knowing he was an addict,
Speaker 1: and so what is my responsibility? But then again, like
Speaker 1: I meant my vowels when I said them, and he's
Speaker 1: broken them, and I don't know even if he came back,
Speaker 1: where we would land. And you deserve so much better, right,
Speaker 1: you know, there's I think a lot of women hold
Speaker 1: on thinking they're going to fix somebody, and that's almost
Speaker 1: part of the attraction. And I think if he doesn't
Speaker 1: let you not to go all over on you be
Speaker 1: your best self and let you pursue your dreams and
Speaker 1: be a full and whole person. And if it's all
Speaker 1: about him and his addiction and his you know, wanting
Speaker 1: to stay clean and you're so focused on that, what's
Speaker 1: left over for you? Yeah, I agreed, not much and
Speaker 1: just the treatment, you know what I mean. This isn't
Speaker 1: how you treat someone you've spent all this time with,
Speaker 1: who's been there for you all this time, and that
Speaker 1: alone is just like you're that's not acceptable to you.
Speaker 1: You deserve so much better and you deserve to be
Speaker 1: standing on higher ground. And by continuing to have this
Speaker 1: conversation with yourself about what you want moving forward. I
Speaker 1: understand it's hard to get over someone, but time will heal.
Speaker 1: You will get over him. You will get over him
Speaker 1: before you think you will. It always happens, you know.
Speaker 1: We don't stay in love with the same people for
Speaker 1: twenty or forty years. And sometimes even if people do,
Speaker 1: there's people along the way that come in and you know,
Speaker 1: shake things up. And I think this is a time
Speaker 1: for you to dive inward and really do the work
Speaker 1: on yourself so that you're never in a position where
Speaker 1: you are vulnerable to a person or an addict like this. Again,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, yeah, And I think Katie is right that,
Speaker 1: you know, he's chasing chaos, whether it's the heroine or
Speaker 1: another person, or busting up his marriage in this way,
Speaker 1: whatever it is. And so are you in therapy right now?
Speaker 1: I am okay good. I mean, you know, we talked
Speaker 1: about this a couple of weeks ago. But when you
Speaker 1: are ready for a new relationship, because it's probably not
Speaker 1: going to be right away, but when you are going
Speaker 1: after relationships that feel steadier and feel really not these
Speaker 1: like extreme highs and lows. The nice thing about that too,
Speaker 1: is like there's less for you to take care of.
Speaker 1: You know, you don't necessarily need somebody who can take
Speaker 1: care of you in that way, but you need someone
Speaker 1: who you can take care of each other. It's not
Speaker 1: just one sided of like I gotta help him be
Speaker 1: in recovery. I gotta help him get out of this,
Speaker 1: you know, I gotta help him figure out his life.
Speaker 1: Now that he's laughed me. I wonder why so many
Speaker 1: women you all are attracted to chaos chaotic relationships sort
Speaker 1: of the push pull the where do I stand? I
Speaker 1: was watching before I went to bed. Sometimes I watch
Speaker 1: old episodes of sex in the City and Carrie is
Speaker 1: dating Aid in it right now. In this episode I
Speaker 1: was watching and she said, it's so nice, it's so easy,
Speaker 1: it's so calm, and she was so unhappy about that.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting when you look at your own self,
Speaker 1: like why do I what is it about my past
Speaker 1: or about relationships or about my makeup that makes me
Speaker 1: want to be in this chaos because ultimately it's just
Speaker 1: so not fun. But I think when you see that,
Speaker 1: you can move towards thing that's different than that, especially
Speaker 1: with the help of a therapist. I think after five
Speaker 1: years of sobriety, like we were getting to that point,
Speaker 1: and that's one of the things he said, Like I
Speaker 1: was just waking up, going to the gym, going to work,
Speaker 1: coming home, sitting on the couch watching TV, and I
Speaker 1: was like, that's life, Like that's where I wanted to be.
Speaker 1: I want a boring life with somebody. I want somebody
Speaker 1: that I can just sit on the couch next to
Speaker 1: and not necessarily even have to have a conversation. So
Speaker 1: for me, like we were finally at the point where
Speaker 1: I was like, great, we own a house. This is
Speaker 1: our nice, little like boring life together. And it was
Speaker 1: comfortable and this really just like smacked me in the
Speaker 1: face out of nowhere. I feel like I'm still reeling
Speaker 1: from the shock. It's interesting what some people consider contentment
Speaker 1: other people consider boredom. Right, I would be with you
Speaker 1: because those are the things I'm interested in as well.
Speaker 1: Sitting on the couch watching TV at the end of
Speaker 1: the day and not fucking talking to anybody. That is
Speaker 1: also my idea of perfect relationship. You know, too much
Speaker 1: talking drives me crazy. It's like I make a living talking,
Speaker 1: so I like quiet, you know as much as I
Speaker 1: like talking. Do you relate to that, Katie, like everyone
Speaker 1: just to stop? Yeah, I love quiet too. I feel
Speaker 1: like you that it's contentment to be able to I
Speaker 1: used to be so sad when I saw people out
Speaker 1: to dinner and not talking, and that still makes me
Speaker 1: sad when I see couples. But there's something when you're
Speaker 1: comfortable enough to not have to talk all the time,
Speaker 1: when you just find comfort in each other's presence and
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel forced or awkward. That to me is
Speaker 1: my sweet spot. That's where I want to be in
Speaker 1: a relationship, and that's what I found, and it is
Speaker 1: possible to find it and you know, I think you
Speaker 1: deserve a drama free relationship. That's what you want, and
Speaker 1: that's what you should go out and find. And I
Speaker 1: was saying earlier to Chelsea and Catherine. You know, when
Speaker 1: I look for a partner, I'm pretty intentional about it.
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm going to run into somebody at
Speaker 1: a bookstore, you know, perusing the new novels. I think
Speaker 1: that you have to network. You have to say to people,
Speaker 1: I'm interested in meeting new people. And it may not
Speaker 1: even be for love connections. It may be just for
Speaker 1: expanding your social circle, learning something new from somebody who's
Speaker 1: in a completely different profession or has an interesting hobby.
Speaker 1: And you know, I always say only coffee or a
Speaker 1: glass of wine, because I don't want to be stuck
Speaker 1: having dinner with somebody who I just don't feel a
Speaker 1: connection with it all. But I also try to give them,
Speaker 1: you know, I try to respect them and appreciate them
Speaker 1: for who they are, even if they're not somebody I
Speaker 1: want to be, you know. Dating there's also a book
Speaker 1: called It's called Breakup because It's Broken, which is a
Speaker 1: good breakup book. Write that one down, and then the
Speaker 1: Letting Go book because I think what you're really talking
Speaker 1: about is letting go. Yeah, And I think that you
Speaker 1: know this is an off oportunity. Don't ever forget every disaster,
Speaker 1: every traumatic experience we have is an opportunity for growth.
Speaker 1: So you're going to take this opportunity and you are
Speaker 1: going to grow, you know what I mean? And you
Speaker 1: think you have to think about that every single day
Speaker 1: and use the intention that Katie's referring to as a
Speaker 1: daily practice for yourself. What am I intentions for today?
Speaker 1: To learn more about myself, To be more honest with myself,
Speaker 1: to be looking for the good in people and the
Speaker 1: people that are giving the good back to you, and
Speaker 1: really just you know, taking the time to get yourself
Speaker 1: a little bit out of your comfort zone in the
Speaker 1: things that you're reading and learning about yourself, even with
Speaker 1: your therapy. Really get down to it, and I think
Speaker 1: that you're going to be in a much better spot
Speaker 1: sooner than later. And don't lose hope. Just remember that
Speaker 1: you are a person of strength. We all have such
Speaker 1: a deep reservoir of strength within us. Sometimes we have
Speaker 1: to really pull it out, and this is one of
Speaker 1: those times where you have to stand on your two
Speaker 1: feet and don't waiver. His behavior has been unacceptable and
Speaker 1: there's no way back to him. Yeah, and think of
Speaker 1: all you have to offer. I think when people get
Speaker 1: treated this way, they look for deficits in themselves because
Speaker 1: it's sort of what's wrong with me? What did I
Speaker 1: do wrong? Why wasn't I good enough? And it doesn't
Speaker 1: have anything to do with that. It's not that you
Speaker 1: have deficits. And I think at a time like this,
Speaker 1: you have to remember all the great things about you,
Speaker 1: And as Chelsea said, I think Chelsea would be an
Speaker 1: excellent purpose by the way, but that you know, to
Speaker 1: really think about all that you have to offer, not
Speaker 1: the things that you are suddenly feeling that you don't have.
Speaker 1: When you break up and you start to obsess about
Speaker 1: the other person, what are they doing, what are they thinking,
Speaker 1: what's their motive? What were they saying? What do they
Speaker 1: mean when they did this? That is the thinking that
Speaker 1: it's like, no, no, what do I think? What am
Speaker 1: I doing? What do I think about him? What do
Speaker 1: I think about myself? How did he make me feel? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's about you redirect any thoughts you have about about
Speaker 1: him back to you, because that's who you need to
Speaker 1: be paying attention to It doesn't matter what he thinks
Speaker 1: or what he's doing. You're going to stand your ground
Speaker 1: and you're going to develop as a human being because
Speaker 1: of this experience. Yeah, you get to be a little
Speaker 1: bit selfish now, and you should be. That's nice. So
Speaker 1: stay busy. I know that, Like even when I lost
Speaker 1: my husband Jay, and even when I've had sort of
Speaker 1: dramatic breakups or you know, after long relationships. I think
Speaker 1: you really have to lean on your female friends and
Speaker 1: your male friends and really stay busy. Take a trip,
Speaker 1: go for a hike, take a pottery class. I mean,
Speaker 1: just work on yourself. But I think those times where
Speaker 1: you wake up at three in the morning and you're
Speaker 1: ruminating and you can't go back to sleep, and I
Speaker 1: think just staying busy for me was so important during
Speaker 1: traumatic periods of my life. It's like I'm trying to
Speaker 1: strike a balance between staying busy and like taking time
Speaker 1: to feel my feelings, because I think sometimes staying busy
Speaker 1: makes me avoid my reality a little bit. I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm performing all the time for other people. Well,
Speaker 1: maybe stay busy by yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, it's
Speaker 1: good to reflect. I think that's really important. I didn't
Speaker 1: learn that until I was much older. About sitting by
Speaker 1: yourself and like allowing the pain to come through, allowing
Speaker 1: yourself to grieve, you know what I mean, not necessarily
Speaker 1: relying on other people to make you feel better as
Speaker 1: a distraction, but kind of working through the pain yourself,
Speaker 1: allotting that time each day. Another good book for you
Speaker 1: to read is attached, because it can probably it will
Speaker 1: probably be very clear to you what kind of person
Speaker 1: he is, which sounds avoidant, and it kind of gives
Speaker 1: you the dynamics between people who are needy or what
Speaker 1: people are expecting out of relationships, and the attraction that
Speaker 1: why you're even in a relationship with someone like this.
Speaker 1: You know, not that there's anything wrong with you, it's
Speaker 1: just our patterns of behavior and our patterns of giving love.
Speaker 1: So yes, please just remember that you're a huge value.
Speaker 1: Separating is not the end of your world. It's the
Speaker 1: beginning of a different part of your life. Yep, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna play this on repeat. Talk Thank you, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: I want to get these books too. They sound so interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're all just you know, like it just depends what
Speaker 1: kind of hits you. You know, I've read so many
Speaker 1: like breakup or self help books. They kind of go
Speaker 1: hand in hand. And some of them are deeper, some
Speaker 1: of them are lighter. There's like The Untethered Soul, which
Speaker 1: is kind of a light, freely read and that's okay,
Speaker 1: but that's not the book for me. Like I like
Speaker 1: deep thinking about like how life gets easier when you
Speaker 1: accept everything and you just go, oh, that didn't work out, Okay,
Speaker 1: what else is going to happen? Not belaboring you know,
Speaker 1: oh what happened when you beat a dead horse like that?
Speaker 1: You're stuck. So you're just gonna have to get yourself unstuck.
Speaker 1: What you're gonna do, and then you're going to report
Speaker 1: back to us. Okay, thank you so much. Okay, Okay,
Speaker 1: we love you, Thanks Elizabeth, good luck bye. I love
Speaker 1: you so much. Thank you. We're gonna be okay. Well
Speaker 1: she's so sweet too. Just to brag on her for
Speaker 1: a second, she said, you know, because I was like, oh, man, December,
Speaker 1: like it's right before the holidays that this all blew up.
Speaker 1: And she goes, oh yeah, and he had invited his
Speaker 1: whole family to come for Christmas, and I go, oh,
Speaker 1: my gosh, did you guys cancel, she goes No, I
Speaker 1: just told them he left. I don't know where he's
Speaker 1: going to be, but you guys are still welcome to come.
Speaker 1: And so they came and stayed with her. Oh that's sweet.
Speaker 1: I like that. I know what a sweetheart. She's so nice.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't I would be like, Nope, you and your
Speaker 1: family can go fuck off. That's more my style. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we took up too much time Katie catching up. Yes,
Speaker 1: we loved very much on so it's good love it.
Speaker 1: We probably could have cut that. Well. You know what,
Speaker 1: we can clarify for now once and for all, because
Speaker 1: I'll so. The other thing is, I keep getting these
Speaker 1: people saying I was on his flight log to Epstein Island,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I mean, that's why this dinner. Have
Speaker 1: I ever pretended that I didn't do something that I've done,
Speaker 1: Like I am the first person to announce it to
Speaker 1: the world. So I would like to clarify that neither
Speaker 1: Katie or myself has ever been on a flight with
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein. Just a dinner. Yeah, that was my meing
Speaker 1: that I was on his manifesto like she was on Jeffrey.
Speaker 1: I'm like, what are they talking about. First of all,
Speaker 1: it's manifest It's not Manifesto. Sorry sorry sorry wait sorry sorry, Oh,
Speaker 1: we'll have to edit that out. We can't have me
Speaker 1: correct you. I keep reading and people tweeked me you
Speaker 1: were on Jeffrey Epstein's manifest and I'm like, what I
Speaker 1: imagine you and I going to that island and then
Speaker 1: what what are we? What are we up to there? Right? Anyway?
Speaker 1: That but that's good. So yes, my dinner which Jeffrey,
Speaker 1: our dinner with Jeffrey is has been discussed once and
Speaker 1: for all. Okay, great, well let's take a quick break
Speaker 1: and we'll be right back to wrap up. And we're
Speaker 1: back with Katie, Gerrik and Katherine, and we're wrapping up
Speaker 1: today's episode. Well, Katie, is there any advice you'd like
Speaker 1: from Chelsea? Yeah, Katie, yes, Oh gosh, I'm springing it
Speaker 1: on you. Oh gosh. Yes, I know. I was supposed
Speaker 1: to think about that, Katherine, and I think I forgot
Speaker 1: to think about it. Okay, that's no problem. What about
Speaker 1: if we just do one more question and then close
Speaker 1: it up. Yeah, I think that's good. Sure, this is
Speaker 1: a bit of a heavy one, but it is right
Speaker 1: up your alleys, so I definitely wanted to get to
Speaker 1: this one. This is from Marty. Marty says, Dear Chelsea.
Speaker 1: I'm the eldest of six sisters and one brother. I'm
Speaker 1: also a wife and mother to three girls. We're close knit,
Speaker 1: though a little crazy. My second to youngest sister, who's
Speaker 1: seven years younger than I, has breast cancer diagnosed back
Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen. In twenty twenty, the cancer metastasized to
Speaker 1: her brain, which was a heartbreak. She was given three
Speaker 1: months to live and there are not a lot of
Speaker 1: treatment options. My sister has miraculously lived a quality life
Speaker 1: for the last two years due to her hard work,
Speaker 1: support group, and medical advances. However, we're now at a
Speaker 1: point where her chemotherapy is no longer working. She's on
Speaker 1: her way to take part in a phase one medical trial,
Speaker 1: hoping to help others in the future and perhaps also
Speaker 1: extend her life. My sisters and I have been her
Speaker 1: cheerleaders throughout this process and have been her confidant in support.
Speaker 1: She's an amazing person and sister. I sure hope that
Speaker 1: her life is extended through the trial, but I'm trying
Speaker 1: to prepare for the alternative. I want to be there
Speaker 1: for her, say all the right things and provide comfort,
Speaker 1: strength and peace. But I don't know how to do this.
Speaker 1: I don't know what to say. I'm afraid I will
Speaker 1: say the wrong thing. I want to save her. I
Speaker 1: don't want this to happen. I'm heartbroken and I need
Speaker 1: to help myself so I can help her. Can you help?
Speaker 1: Give me answers? Thank you, and I hope this note
Speaker 1: finds its way to you. Marty. You have really smart, sensitive,
Speaker 1: eloquent listeners. So that was a beautiful letter, and that
Speaker 1: is a very very I think that is one of
Speaker 1: the most profound and difficult situations. You know, we as
Speaker 1: a culture just don't know how to help people die.
Speaker 1: You know. I think I wrote a lot about this
Speaker 1: in my book because I was in a state of
Speaker 1: denial and was the cheerleader for Jay, despite the fact
Speaker 1: that I knew that his illness was you know, the
Speaker 1: likeliness of being cured was almost zero. So you know,
Speaker 1: they have something called death duelas now, which is really
Speaker 1: interesting that they helped families and they help people deal
Speaker 1: with their own mortality. And I think clearly this is
Speaker 1: an incredibly loving family and I wish that when Jay
Speaker 1: was sick. We had had somebody to sit and talk
Speaker 1: to us and a lat give us space to express
Speaker 1: our fears and our Jay's hope for the future, for
Speaker 1: our daughters to be able to have those conversations, which
Speaker 1: are the hardest conversations you can have. So I have
Speaker 1: so much empathy and sympathy for that listener, and I
Speaker 1: think just being there for the person and just surrounding
Speaker 1: them by love or with love. There was this incredible
Speaker 1: show on Netflix called From Scratch and kem By Locke
Speaker 1: wrote it. It was based on a true story and
Speaker 1: I watched it and I just cried because her husband
Speaker 1: died of cancer and the way he was surrounded by love,
Speaker 1: and the way she was just there for him and
Speaker 1: she was saying Tiamo, tiamo because he was Italian. It
Speaker 1: was so moving. I'm started crying thinking about it. And
Speaker 1: I think families need help with this. You know, nobody
Speaker 1: reads a book about this, Nobody. It's such a new
Speaker 1: and painful experience. But I think it can be turned
Speaker 1: into something that's truly transcendent us. I think that people
Speaker 1: need help, and she should get together with her loving
Speaker 1: sisters and maybe talk about it and talk to someone
Speaker 1: who specializes in this to say. Kate Bowler has a
Speaker 1: great podcast. She's been living with colon cancer for a
Speaker 1: long time. She talks a lot about this this kind
Speaker 1: of stuff. And I did a whole video with a
Speaker 1: death duela and with Kate and with another woman who
Speaker 1: had lost her husband right after they she gave birth
Speaker 1: to twins. And it's a very very hard thing. What
Speaker 1: would you say, Chelsea to this for I think it's
Speaker 1: really important just to give as much love as possible,
Speaker 1: you know, to anybody who is leaving this earth. The
Speaker 1: situation is not in your control, but what you can
Speaker 1: control is how you deal with the situation and what
Speaker 1: you provide. And I think it can be a completely
Speaker 1: transformative relationship for you to be able to show up
Speaker 1: for your sister in this way, in this loving way,
Speaker 1: where it's not about necessarily you losing her right now,
Speaker 1: it's about you being there for her right now and
Speaker 1: working through your stuff on your own time with your family.
Speaker 1: I think a death duel is a great idea, and
Speaker 1: also to just start to think about death in a
Speaker 1: different way, in a way that it doesn't feel like, yes,
Speaker 1: your sister may be leaving this earth, but her aura.
Speaker 1: Her spirit is never going to be gone. I can't
Speaker 1: tell you how often I feel my mother around me. Katie.
Speaker 1: Do you have that experience with Jay or with your
Speaker 1: sister that you feel them around you, or that you
Speaker 1: have a sign when you know, like that they're giving
Speaker 1: you or anything like that a little bit? You know,
Speaker 1: I'm not. I just don't think I'm very receptive to that, Chelsea. Yet.
Speaker 1: I wish I were. There are moments, but I sometimes think, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm just imagining that. Yeah, And I think that's true.
Speaker 1: I think the more open you are spiritually and open
Speaker 1: hearted you are, the more that you will be able
Speaker 1: to receive from people once they are not on this earth.
Speaker 1: You know, the energy just transforms. It never dies. It's
Speaker 1: not like she's going to go on and live up
Speaker 1: in heaven or whatever. But her spirit will still survive
Speaker 1: because that's the energy that we all have. You know,
Speaker 1: our spirit goes on and whatever wherever it goes, you know,
Speaker 1: we'll never know. But I want you to look at it.
Speaker 1: Try to start looking about it. You know. There's a
Speaker 1: book called Many Lives, Many Masters, which kind of blows
Speaker 1: your mind about reincarnation, which I don't really believe in
Speaker 1: but when I read that book, it's impossible not to.
Speaker 1: These are firsthand accounts of people who have been built
Speaker 1: under hypnosis and then speak Italian for an hour and
Speaker 1: they didn't even know they could speak Italian, you know,
Speaker 1: like crazy memories that people have from their lives. So
Speaker 1: I just I think having that attitude and being open
Speaker 1: to what the possibilities of life after death are and
Speaker 1: what that means, so that it doesn't feel yes, you're
Speaker 1: not going to see her again in her physical form,
Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean what she's imprinted on you thus
Speaker 1: far ever has to disappear. And you have an opportunity
Speaker 1: now to give her so much love and so much
Speaker 1: support and really be there for her in a way
Speaker 1: that is going to elevate you as well, that is
Speaker 1: going to make you proud of the way that this
Speaker 1: takes shape. Whether she passes on or whether she is
Speaker 1: able to survive, you should be prepared for the prior
Speaker 1: and that you can be here in this moment as
Speaker 1: somebody who is going to be holding her hand as
Speaker 1: she leaves this world, that is going to be there
Speaker 1: with that kind of love that all that's all you
Speaker 1: could ever want in this world is to be born
Speaker 1: into love and then leave in love. And so I
Speaker 1: also think Chelsea, you know, just they're obviously a very
Speaker 1: close family, and I think to be able to have
Speaker 1: an honest conversation with her sister, like what do you need?
Speaker 1: I love that you said, don't think about losing her,
Speaker 1: but just think about being there for her. What do
Speaker 1: you need? What can I do? What are you afraid of?
Speaker 1: I don't know if her sister has children. I mean
Speaker 1: that's really hard too, you know, talking about even some
Speaker 1: of the practical concerns that she might have, and just
Speaker 1: telling her that she is there for her, to help
Speaker 1: her in any way big and small. And it just
Speaker 1: we're afraid, you know, we're afraid to say. I wish
Speaker 1: I had said to Jay, I'm so afraid that you're
Speaker 1: going to die, And can you leave something for Ellie
Speaker 1: and Carrie who are two and six and are never
Speaker 1: going to know their father truly? And I just think
Speaker 1: that as a culture, we need to learn the language
Speaker 1: of loss and of illness and of death, and that
Speaker 1: we're so afraid of our own mortality. It just it's
Speaker 1: it's almost paralyzing, Yes, and honoring this time in her life,
Speaker 1: you know, all the things that Katie just said, and
Speaker 1: then also having everybody around having a party, having a
Speaker 1: dinner party, you know, to a celebration of her life. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true. You know, they do living memorial services now
Speaker 1: I read. Yeah, you know, and maybe you should talk
Speaker 1: to someone by my friend Laurie Gottlief, she had she's
Speaker 1: a therapist. She had a patient with cancer really young,
Speaker 1: you know, I think she was in her early thirties,
Speaker 1: and they did a whole celebration of her life while
Speaker 1: she was living. And you know, maybe that's something as
Speaker 1: you mentioned, I didn't mean to interrupt, Chelsea, but that
Speaker 1: that is something you could do for her, if that's
Speaker 1: something that would be helpful. Yeah, closure with everyone is
Speaker 1: so helpful, the whole family member just showing up and
Speaker 1: just being there for her and every moment and fulfilling
Speaker 1: her requests whatever they may be. It's going to help
Speaker 1: you through the rest of your life and your loss too,
Speaker 1: and your grief and your families. You know. So this
Speaker 1: is the time when families really have an opportunity to
Speaker 1: show up for each other. So I know it's a
Speaker 1: really difficult situation, but I think you can rise to
Speaker 1: the occasion and really just be a leader, like, help
Speaker 1: lead this so that she's as comfortable as possible and
Speaker 1: gets anything she wants off of her chest or you know,
Speaker 1: time spent with other family members and her wishes from
Speaker 1: after she's gone, to honor all of those things, I
Speaker 1: think will be really helpful in what you're dealing with.
Speaker 1: You know, when my mom died, Chelsea, I was just bereft,
Speaker 1: you know, I was very close to both my parents,
Speaker 1: and I remember my minister calling, and I go to church,
Speaker 1: so I'm not super religious, but I really liked my
Speaker 1: minister and he called to offer his condolences, and I
Speaker 1: told him I was just felt like an untethered Helian balloon,
Speaker 1: you know, I just was sort of unmoored. And he said,
Speaker 1: remembered those who love deeply, grieved deeply, and it kind
Speaker 1: of turned a switch in me, and it made me
Speaker 1: go from immense sadness to immense gratitude. Obviously, this letter
Speaker 1: was written by someone with a very loving relationship with
Speaker 1: her sisters, and to kind of take a moment and
Speaker 1: appreciate that is also very comforting. Indeed, we ended on
Speaker 1: a really difficult note, but I think so many of
Speaker 1: us go through something like this that it's going to
Speaker 1: be really helpful to a lot of people. So thank
Speaker 1: you for sharing. Thank you Katie for sharing. It's always
Speaker 1: nice to see you. I love you. I hope I
Speaker 1: see you in person sooner than later. I hope so too,
Speaker 1: because there's so much I want to talk to you
Speaker 1: about and ask you about. And yeah, I have to say, Chelsea,
Speaker 1: I really appreciate listening to you give advice because you're
Speaker 1: very wise, and you're very smart, and I think you're
Speaker 1: extremely helpful to a lot of people. Not to mention
Speaker 1: highly entertaining, we didn't even talk about tuckered carsons. Oh
Speaker 1: my god. Oh I think that's apt because he doesn't
Speaker 1: deserve anymore. As my daughter said, that's all they have.
Speaker 1: That's all they have, or these culture wars, and that's
Speaker 1: all they can talk about. And it's just so poisonous
Speaker 1: and so ridiculois. I loved It's so stupid poisonous. Also,
Speaker 1: my niece was up here saying, she goes. They were
Speaker 1: Tucker Cross talking about how women. If you've ever seen
Speaker 1: a woman back up a car, then you know that
Speaker 1: they're not equal to men. He said, it back up
Speaker 1: a car like it's almost a parody of misogyny. Right,
Speaker 1: it's not even in real step with real misogyny, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. It's like it's it's misogyny for
Speaker 1: morons for nineteen fifties. Yeah, misogyny. So yeah, so let's
Speaker 1: not give him any more airtime. But they thank you
Speaker 1: so much for coming on. Oh. I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed it. Katherine, Thank you. I'd spend fun
Speaker 1: being with you as well. And Chelsea, please let me
Speaker 1: know when we're in the same city because I would
Speaker 1: love to spend some quality time with you. I would too.
Speaker 1: I would too. I'm going to reach out to you
Speaker 1: and let you know when I'm in New York. You're
Speaker 1: in New York mostly right, yeah, mostly New York. Yeah? Okay, okay, cool,
Speaker 1: all right, lots of love to everyone, Okay, bye, bye,
Speaker 1: thank you. Okay. I've added some new dates for my
Speaker 1: new Little Big Bitch tour. I'm gonna tell you the
Speaker 1: ones that are not sold out because we're adding second
Speaker 1: shows in Kalamazoom, Michigan Sunday, April sixteenth, we added a
Speaker 1: second show. We're adding a second show in Spokane, Washington,
Speaker 1: which is going to be Thursday. So I'll be performing
Speaker 1: in Spokane Thursday and Friday. And then we added Red
Speaker 1: Rocks Amphitheater in Colorado, which is in Morrison, Colorado, and
Speaker 1: that is May tenth, so and then I have one
Speaker 1: new edition Friday, May twelve. We added Monticello, New York.
Speaker 1: So that's a resort World Cats Skills. I don't think
Speaker 1: I've been to the Cat Skills well ever, and we're
Speaker 1: continuing to add shows. We have a lot of cities
Speaker 1: on the list, Vegas, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Alabama, a lot of
Speaker 1: places in Tennessee. So if you're listening, go to Chelsea
Speaker 1: Hammo dot com for tickets and you could see my
Speaker 1: stand up special Revolution on Netflix, which is now streaming.
Speaker 1: So if you'd like advice from Chelsea, just send us
Speaker 1: an email at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: Dear Chelsea is a production of iHeartRadio, produced by Catherine
Speaker 1: Law and edited and engineered by Brad Dickert.