1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Hello, this is the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcast show 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: where we explore some of the big money issues in 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:10,639 Speaker 1: the world of sports on Michael Black. And there is 4 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: a big feud now that's even getting hotter between the 5 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: p g A and Live and according to our reporting, 6 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: that has now boiled over with nine eleven families dragged 7 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: into the middle of these legal battles. And with us 8 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: is our own Bloomberg Eric Larson, who wrote the article 9 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: about this. Eric, first of all, thanks for talking to 10 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: us on the Bloomberg Business of Sports. Yeah, thanks for 11 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: having me. Now what has happened? What what is the 12 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: latest here? This feud has gone up to another level 13 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: and now it involves the nine eleven families. Yeah, you know, 14 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: as you said this, this has been an ongoing, you know, 15 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: antitrust case between p g A and Live, where of 16 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:59,279 Speaker 1: course Live is accusing p g A of monopolistic behavior. Um. 17 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: So this nine eleven angle really kind of came out 18 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: of nowhere, although it's not too much of a surprise 19 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: since it all kind of is related. But Live had 20 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 1: issued a subpoena to p g as public relations firm, 21 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: a company called Cloud Public Affairs that has offices in Washington. 22 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: Uh So they wanted to get documents and communications from 23 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: p G as PR firm that they thought could use 24 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 1: they could use in their antitrust case. But Clouds Um 25 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: you know, fired back in a court filing a couple 26 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 1: of days ago challenging the subpoena on the grounds that 27 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: Live was allegedly using the subpoena to quote, build an 28 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 1: intelligence file to quote on families of nine eleven victims 29 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: who have been critical of the Kingdom and its professional 30 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: golf circuit. Uh So it's pretty explosive claim, um. And 31 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: of course a lot of those nine eleven families have 32 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: been protesting against this golf circuit side some of their locations, 33 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: so there was already that anger there, and now this 34 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: PR firm is accusing Live of essentially trying to help 35 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: out of Arabia gather intelligence on some of its biggest 36 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: critics in the US, these nine eleven victims families. So, Eric, 37 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: you know, for our audience, can you shed a little 38 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: bit of light on on Cloud on their president David Polanski, 39 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: who I believe served as Ted Cruz's chief of staff 40 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 1: and was also a senior advisor to Scott Walker's seen 41 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: presidential campaign, I think they also have another employe their 42 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: CEOs and at the Davis worked at the e p 43 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: A during the Trump administration. Now we all know, you know, 44 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: Live Golf play some of its matches at at Trump's 45 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: golf courses here in the US. I wonder, like, what's 46 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: going on here? Is there something deeper and more sinister 47 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: that we're not saying? Well, I I think that's definitely 48 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: what's being alleged on both sides here, that there's something 49 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: centerster going on. You know, the p g A claims 50 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 1: that Live is UH trying to you know, quote sports 51 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: wash its reputation to UM try to rehabilitate its image 52 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: in the US of course, after the two thousand one 53 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 1: nine terror attacks, after the murder of Jamal Khoge, and 54 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: you know even US as this public relations are firm 55 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: pointed out even UH Staudi Arabia has helped helping of 56 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 1: Russia in terms of UH energy prices after the invasion 57 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: of Ukraine. So they claim that this whole Live tournament 58 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: is just an economic money loser for Saudi Arabian. The 59 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: only reason it's doing it is to rehabilitate its image 60 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: and of course lives that the p G A is 61 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: being sinister here by UM propping up these nine eleven 62 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: families to protest live tournament events and smear its image 63 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: that way. So you have these allegations coming on on 64 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: both sides. But when you when you talk about this 65 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: Cloud Public Affairs firm, it's you know, as you say, 66 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: it has these connections to ex chief of staff, to 67 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: Ted Cruz and the like. So it is kind of 68 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: an interesting, uh company that I'm actually trying to learn 69 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: more about. But it clearly has some clients who are 70 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: opposed to Saudi Arabia, like a lot of politicians you know, 71 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: are UM. But one of their clients is called nine 72 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: eleven Justice, and there the families and nine eleven victims 73 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 1: and uh so you have that connection with uh, with 74 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: this public relations firm and you and Live now wants 75 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 1: to see all these documents and communications as well, not 76 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 1: just involving p g A, but involving nine eleven Justice. Yeah, 77 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: I mean, not Eric, I mean, that's exactly where I 78 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: was going with us. I mean nine eleven Justice. I mean, 79 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: do you think that the PGA selected Clouds specifically for 80 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: its work with nine eleven Justice, because you know, that's 81 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: kind of I think what's being insinuated here? Now, Well, 82 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: I'm reluctant to say exactly what what I think, but 83 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: certainly I don't think that it would be unusual. Um. 84 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: I think that the Cloud Public Affairs is saying that 85 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,720 Speaker 1: there's nothing strange about PGA and nine eleven Justice working 86 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: together because p g A has said that it's reasoning 87 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: for being so anti live you could say, is that 88 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,359 Speaker 1: it does not want US golf professional golf to be 89 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: tainted by Saudi Arabia's human rights abuses. Uh So, in 90 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: a way, it would sort of makes sense for p 91 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 1: g A to work with with families because they're on 92 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: the same page. Um, whether or not there's something sinister 93 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: about that, Uh you know, I guess that potentially is 94 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: something that a judge might decide. But um, you know, 95 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 1: one could also argue it's just the First Amendment issue. 96 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 1: In fact, that's what Cloud Public Affairs is, arguing that 97 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 1: this subpoena violates its First Amendment right to associate with 98 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 1: its client. Um. So it's if you want to talk 99 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 1: about what definitely is sinister, I think we can say 100 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 1: that nine eleven was sinister, and so is the murder. 101 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 1: Of course, So I mean it's kind of leaned a 102 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 1: little harder against Saudi Arabia just based on the facts here, 103 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: and that's kind of PA's points. Well, this takes another 104 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: interesting angle because in a few months we're going to 105 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: be playing the Masters in Augusta, Georgia, and the Masters 106 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 1: have said, okay, we're going to allow the top players 107 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: who are either other former champions of the Masters and 108 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 1: the top players on the list in golf who are 109 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: with LIVE to play in the masks. This is this 110 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: takes an interesting turn face fight on the driving range. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, 111 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: I think, uh that that's kind of what Live has accomplished. 112 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: Sort of, it's it's goal here, right, It is concerted 113 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: itself into this massive popular industry. Of course, you know, 114 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: Donald Trump's properties hosted uh lave of events and it 115 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: got even more political in that context. Uh. But I 116 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: mean this sports washing, this term, you know, it has 117 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: been successful in lots of different ways. I mean, just 118 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: look at what happened with the World Cup. You had 119 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 1: years of allegations of bribery and forced labor and things 120 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: like this, and then all the other things that happened 121 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 1: during the event um itself, and it just ended up 122 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: in you know, a success, if not for Quitar's team, 123 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: at least for Quitar. So uh, it is, it's been. 124 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:11,239 Speaker 1: It is a successful way for um sort of authoritarian 125 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: countries to assert themselves on the world stage. Well, Eric, 126 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: I think also we can disagree on the fact that 127 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: it's also been kind of successful in pushing the PGA 128 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: down the road. It probably wouldn't have thought about going 129 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: down just a few months back, right, I mean, now 130 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: they're having I mean the Century Tournament. I mean that's 131 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: a smaller field with a bigger payout for PGA players 132 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: only you know, thirty eight players. You know, it gives 133 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: them a better chance of winning money. And so you know, 134 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: obviously this change coming to the PGA as well. So yeah, 135 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: you know, I mean I agree with you, Michael, What 136 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: do you think? No, I agree with you, and and 137 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: it I mean, it brings up so many angles involved, 138 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: and I just think that, let me put it this way, 139 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: all that money that they're offering these golfers, and we 140 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: can sit back because nobody's offering me any any money 141 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: like this, you know, and we can say, hey, I'm 142 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: going to play and live. But someone comes to me 143 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: and says, tell you, well, we're gonna offer you fifty 144 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: million dollars a year to broadcast, but you're gonna be 145 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: doing it in Saudi Arabia. You're put in that dilemma. 146 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: I kind of go back to the old quiz show 147 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: scandal thing, where you know, they were getting the answers, 148 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: but they're gonna paid a lot of money, and the 149 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: question comes down to, well, what would you do? So, 150 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: you know, Eric, I guess that's what it comes down 151 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: to with these golfers. Absolutely, And of course I don't 152 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: think that that's why it gets a little dry when 153 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: you get it into into court, because these judges are 154 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 1: going to be looking at it, and it's just very 155 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: straightforward way about whether or not PJ is a monopolist, 156 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: and in the case of this, you know, public relations firm, 157 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: whether or not it has to hand over all of 158 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: its communications with nine eleven victims to live. So it's 159 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: gonna come down to the law here. But I do 160 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: appreciate your point about sort of the morals of all 161 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: of this as well, which really people have to decide 162 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: on their own. Yeah, I mean is it's this is 163 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: one of those deals where, uh, this few is going 164 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: to continue for a while, and well, let me put 165 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 1: it this way, do you see any hope of live 166 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: and the p g A existing now like cats and dogs? 167 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I to be honest, it's just if you 168 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: look at p GA in terms of the market control 169 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 1: that it has, and if you just look at Live 170 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: as just another industry entrance, um, it's hard to not 171 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 1: imagine that there's room for more for another big player 172 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: like p g A. Right. I mean, I'm not an 173 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: expert on that, but it does seem like there might 174 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: be some um uh some be to anyone claiming that 175 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: PGA has too much uh market share, too much market control. Um. 176 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: So it live could be making a valid point while 177 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: also engaging in sports watching. Both could be true. Our 178 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: own Bloomberg's Eric Larson and an excellent article. If you 179 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: want to check it out, go on the Bloomberg terminal 180 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: and you can check it out. P g A Live 181 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: Golf Court feud boils over with nine eleven families dragged in. Eric. 182 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us on the Bloomberg 183 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,199 Speaker 1: Business of Sports. Thank you. This has been the Bloomberg 184 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: Business of Sports podcast. I'm Michael bar along with Damien Sassaur. 185 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: Catch us here each and every Monday, Wednesday and Thursday, 186 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: exploring the world of money in sports. Catch me on 187 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 1: Twitter at big Bar Sports and I'm at the Sasser. 188 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg Business Sports on Bloomberg Radio around 189 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: the world.