1 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,479 Speaker 1: Growing up in a rural area myself, I have come 2 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: to appreciate that childhood and what could be more wholesome 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: than the Apple capital of the world. When at you, Washington, 4 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: now home to one of the worst child sex scandals ever. 5 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: Didn't anyone stop and notice what was happening? Didn't anyone 6 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 1: stand up and say this is wrong? As this couple 7 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 1: and that couple, this mother, that father, a pastor, his 8 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: wife all thrown behind bars on charges of child rape 9 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: and child molestation, no one thought to question what was 10 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: going on around them. It's so easy to blame just 11 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: one person, Detective Perez, apparently drunk on power with an 12 00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: extra dose of arrogance added in. But what really happened? 13 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: What about all the other lawyers, the prosecutors, the social 14 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:19,119 Speaker 1: workers that were part of this so called investigation as 15 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,320 Speaker 1: we explore one of the worst travesties of justice ever 16 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: to take place in our country that we know of. 17 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: You know, as I've said before, you hear of people 18 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: being rounded up in the night, dragged away from their 19 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: homes and countries like Russia and China, North Korea. But 20 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: here in America, mothers and dads literally being taken away 21 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,639 Speaker 1: from the supper table with their children sitting there, charged 22 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: with child rape, with me an all star panel to 23 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: analyze what happened players that were there when it all 24 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: went down. But in case you're wondering, who was standing 25 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: by twiddling their thumbs, is it all played out in 26 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: front of them doing nothing? Take a listen to this. 27 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: It surprises even me how traumatizing it is. I haven't 28 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: slept well the last two nights in anticipation of this interview. 29 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: But that's how post traumatic stress works. You have the 30 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 1: flashback experience, so I lie awake a flashback experience. You 31 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: are hearing a former Child Protective Services worker, Paul Glasson, 32 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: who now says how traumatizing it is if he even 33 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: looks back on what happened in Wenatchee. If you didn't 34 00:02:54,480 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: hear what he said, listen again. It's surprised. This is 35 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 1: even me, how traumatizing it is. I haven't slept well 36 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: the last two nights in anticipation of this interview, But 37 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 1: that's how post traumatic stress works. You have a flashback experience. 38 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 1: So I lie awake, lie awake, thinking back on what 39 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: happened with me that CPS worker Paul Glasson fired by 40 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: CPS for reporting a recantation of some of these children 41 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: recan't That means you've given a statement and you want 42 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: to take it all back. You want to recant what 43 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: you said. Also with me, Tom Grant, Award winning journalist, 44 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: former reporter k R. E. M and the co executive 45 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: producer of In the Valley of Sin. You can find 46 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: him at doctor Thomas Grant dot com. Steve Lacy, defense attorney, 47 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: former managing partner Lacy Kane and Cube, former mayor of 48 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: East Swanachi boy, I bet he's got some stories to tell. 49 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: Teresa Gill, professor of psychology, psychotherapist twenty five years working 50 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: with child abuse truma victims and the author of Women 51 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: who Were Sexually Abused as Children, Mothering Resilience and Protecting 52 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:28,679 Speaker 1: the Next Generation. And Catherine Lyons, former public defender there 53 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: in Pierce County, Washington and author of witch Hunt, A 54 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 1: True Story of social hysteria and Abused Justice. First of all, 55 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 1: to you, Paul glasson just hearing you talking about the 56 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: flashbacks you have knowing you were going to be asked 57 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: questions about the Wenaci witch hunt. This has got to 58 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: just weighed on your mind for all these years like 59 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 1: a sack of rocks you're carrying around. What happened? Take 60 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: me back to the time this all went down. What happened? Oh, 61 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: it all started for me when I was visiting a 62 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: teenager from my caseload who was being held in juvenile detention, 63 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: and I was there simply to discuss her being moved 64 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: to another foster home, and she suddenly blurted out that 65 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: she had told a bunch of lies those are her words, 66 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: told a bunch of lies about Dad, meaning her foster father. 67 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: And she went on to say, and the policeman, the 68 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: policeman without to get Dad and told me I had 69 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: to say those things or he would know I was lying. 70 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 1: Did you just stop in your tracks? I did. I 71 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 1: did because it was not my job to continue a 72 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 1: criminal investigation, even though that's what was being suggested. I 73 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: simply reassured her that she had said one thing to 74 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: the policeman the day before, she was saying a different 75 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: thing to me today, and that it would be some 76 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: time before she would have to testify in any court case, 77 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: and we would arrange for her to see a mental 78 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: health counselor. And I asked her if who she had 79 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: seen in the past that she might like to see again. 80 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 1: Now I believe you're talking about Annie Rodriguez and that 81 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 1: was Bob Devereaux's foster daughter. Yes, yes, that's right. You know, 82 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 1: I want to go back to that particular case, to 83 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: Tama Grant joining me. He's a co executive producer of 84 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: In the Valley of Sin. And I've got to tell 85 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: you something, Tom, When I would hear that child molestation 86 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: cases had been dropped and my world, that's not real. 87 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: It was really only until I have spoken to these 88 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: adults then, child victims, who were telling me how all 89 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: of this has really ruined their lives, the years of 90 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: self loathing and hatred for ratting out their moms and 91 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: dads over false clients. I've just I've been floored. What 92 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: can you tell us about Annie Rodriguez's case, Tom, You know, 93 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: Annie loved her her foster father, but she was also 94 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: you know, she was a teenager who had other issues. 95 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: She had a boyfriend who was a trouble and and uh, 96 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: and Bob didn't want her spending all the time with 97 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: her boyfriend, and so she was mad at her at 98 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: her foster father, and so she put iodine in his 99 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: in his drink to poison. You know it was. It 100 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: was wrong, and that's why why she ended up in 101 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: uh in you know, juvenile care, you know, juvenile the 102 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: juvenile detention center. But but Bob, you know, Bob didn't 103 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: really hold that against her. But everybody was targeting Bob Debriel, 104 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: this foster father who took care of girls like Annie. 105 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: And that's how this, that's how this got started. The 106 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: police detective went in and asked her again, and you know, 107 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: again and again if for a foster well not just 108 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: if for a foster father had abused were telling her 109 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: that her foster father had abused her and pressuring her 110 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: into making this statement. Later on she talked to me 111 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: and you know, as well as to other people and recanted. 112 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: But but you know, nobody would believe her then. You know, 113 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: it really feeds in to what you are writing about. 114 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: To Catherine Lyon's former public defender. They are in Pierce County, Washington, 115 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 1: an author of witch Hunt, A true story of social 116 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: hysteria and abused justice. You hear the child in this case, 117 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: one of the children, Annie Rodriguez, blurting out, no prodding, 118 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: no pushing, no leading, no cross examination, just blurting out, 119 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: I love about my dad. Those were all eyes. Yet 120 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: it didn't seem to matter. Catherine, Yeah, it didn't. It 121 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: didn't matter because the belief was there. And besides, I've 122 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: mentioned in an earlier episode, there's their explanations for that 123 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: in the literature about child abuse, that kids recamp and 124 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: they change their story and they deny because that's part 125 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: of their the symptomatic behaviors of child abuse. And so 126 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: there was plenty of literature that would support some of 127 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: this stuff, but none of it to support the methods 128 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: that were used here. But of course that wasn't known, 129 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: and when I first came to Winachi, I had really 130 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: not had heard that much about it. It It was a 131 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 1: couple of years after some of these cases had been 132 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: kicked around and charges had already been made. Again some 133 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: of the more the more limited people, I guess in 134 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: terms of their intellectual behavior that lived in that valley. 135 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: But it didn't You didn't get in the paper. It's 136 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: not even popular to write about this kind of thing, 137 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: so unless unless it had more of an impact on 138 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: the city's west of the mountains, there wasn't a lot 139 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: of interest in writing about this. So I hadn't even 140 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: come across it. Until my boss called me into his 141 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 1: office and suggest that I go look into this. I 142 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,839 Speaker 1: had done a lot of child abuse cases. Nobody wanted them, 143 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:27,719 Speaker 1: of course, but I also found that if there's a 144 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: one area where you might be falsely accused for whatever reason, 145 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: it's in the area of child abuse, because because it's 146 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: the pre territory. And that's so interesting, Catherine Lye in 147 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: because as a crime victim myself and a former prosecutor, 148 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: I've always said that's one of the cases where you 149 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: can really count on the victims because as children aren't 150 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: really old enough, they don't have the wilds to know 151 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: how to create an elaborate lie and then stick to 152 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: it over and over and over. And as we see 153 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: he that was true. The children tried to recant, they 154 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: could not keep up the lie, but it didn't matter. 155 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace forty three adults charged with 156 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 1: nearly thirty thousand counts of child molestations, sixty children and 157 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: all named victims. Back to Paul Glasson former Child Protective Services, 158 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: who suddenly he's talking to this little Annie Rodriguez teen 159 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: who's lashing out at her foster dad because he doesn't 160 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: want her hanging out with her boyfriend all the time, 161 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: and she boards out I lied about my dad. I 162 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: lied about my dad. Okay, So, Paul Glasson, when you 163 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: hear this, who do you tell her? I left the 164 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: interview with the child. I went directly to the director 165 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: of the Jubitle Dettention Center and told her that Annie 166 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: was beginning to recant, but I also told her that 167 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: beyond her recantation, Annie was clearly making it understood that 168 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 1: she had been led to making the false accusations by 169 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:37,319 Speaker 1: the police officer. She said he described sex acts, claiming 170 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: my foster dad had performed those acts on me, and 171 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: then told me, you know, I had to say that 172 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: was the case, that was true, or he would know 173 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: I was lying. And the other girls have already accused Dad, 174 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: and so I needed to do so as well. Well, 175 00:12:55,240 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: that was clearly a coercive interview interrogation that he had 176 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: conducted with her, and the detective was who Bob Perez. 177 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: You know it's hard enough for as Catherine Lyon was 178 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: just pointing out, people don't want to hear about it, 179 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: people don't want to read about it. Child molestation. I 180 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: get it. When I would have child molestation cases juries 181 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 1: the jurors would actually WinCE when I would describe what 182 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,199 Speaker 1: the indictment said and what I was intending to prove. 183 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: Some of them would look away. When the child would 184 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: be on the witness stand, they would look down, they 185 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: would physically recoil. Well. Another demonstration of that is that 186 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: it's taken twenty five years for the documentary to be 187 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: made about those events. At the time, there are a 188 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: couple of different production companies who approached those of us 189 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: involved and discussed making such a documentary, but it didn't 190 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: happen back then. Took twenty five years for someone to 191 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: have thee to do this. And I've got to say 192 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:09,479 Speaker 1: that what makes it even more shocking is the landscape 193 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: the backdrop, and that would be when Natchee, Washington, because 194 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 1: it's such a rural, beautiful area, as I like to say, 195 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: nothing but apple orchards and green trees as far as 196 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: the eye can see, because that's where parents moved to 197 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: keep their children safe. That all said back to paul 198 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: A glasson Anywhere and Riguez's caseworker. So you didn't prod her, 199 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: he didn't press her. She blurted this out. And the 200 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: first person you told was who the woman who was 201 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: in charge of the juvenile detention. She was very much 202 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: involved in the things there. I don't remember the names, 203 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: but I know her husband was one of the one 204 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: of the prosecutors in Shlann County. After you reported it, 205 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: what if anything happened, Well, I got a call from 206 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: my supervisor, Juana Vasquez sometime that afternoon. I continued doing 207 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: my job and got a call and she said, you 208 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: need to get back to the office. There's a lot 209 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: of wild stories going around the office about you. Okay, 210 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: that's never good. Go ahead, So you go back to 211 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: the office and what are the wild stories. Well, she 212 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: told me that that the police were saying that I 213 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: had tampered with the witness, meaning talking to Annie and 214 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: gotten her to recant her story. And as I've said 215 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: many times in the years since then, that's the one 216 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: thing that they could do that would convince me that 217 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: Annie's suggestion that she had been coerced was true. They 218 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: tried to deflect the blame the irony of her Their 219 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: charge of witness Tampa, of course, is that if what 220 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: she said was true, they were the one tampering with 221 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 1: a witness by coercing her into false testimony. I want 222 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: to go to Steve Lacy, veteran defense attorney, former managing 223 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: partner Lacy Kane and Cube, and a former mayor of 224 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: Eastwinacchi Stee, thank you for being with us. When you 225 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: hear the word witness tampering, that's not a phrase that 226 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: just falls off, that just trills off a civilians tongue. 227 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: That is very that's a very serious charge witness tampering. 228 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: What do you make of what you're hearing Paul glass 229 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: And say he's trying to do his job. I was 230 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: interesting when I was I represented both Paul and one 231 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: Garcia and one of Oscars at one point after Paul 232 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: and and one and one had all been fired from 233 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: the Fish. Yes, ultimately the only person that went to trial. Well, 234 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: hold on just a moment, Steve Lacy, uh, Paul Glasson, 235 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: he didn't tell me they can do you they can, Paul, 236 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: they can one Garcia and they terminated one of Basket. 237 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 1: They were the three individuals you were talking earlier about 238 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 1: why people didn't stand up and state what they knew 239 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: or pose what they're going on. Well, those were the 240 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: three people that did. And all those three people lost 241 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 1: their jobs. You're telling me that the CPS workers that 242 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 1: tried to stand up. I guess to what was happening, 243 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: all got fired correct, and they all brought suit over 244 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: that discharge, and one up on me ended up in trial. 245 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: He's only one hit by that time, Paul and one 246 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: hold on, wait wait, Paul glasson one you clon Garcia 247 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 1: and you named one other? Did you not? One of 248 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: ano guess he was this Paul supervisor. He just mentioned 249 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 1: who's supervisor supervised all the case workers within the foster 250 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 1: care system as well as some of the foster homes. Well, 251 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: both of you are right. I've been saying why didn't 252 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 1: people stop stop it when they saw what was happening? 253 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: But here you're hearing about three individuals in addition to 254 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 1: the pastor Robertson that tried to stop it. I want 255 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: you to take a listen to this. I had the 256 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: ultimate responsibility to decide whether or not what I was 257 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: being asked to do was ethical. Being a dedicated worker 258 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 1: wasn't enough. In fact, being a dedicated worker was enough 259 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 1: to get to in trouble. I was so fearful we 260 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: made the decision that we were going to be moved 261 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: to Canada. Crime Stories with Nancy grace. I had an 262 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: ultimate responsibility to decide whether or not what I was 263 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: being asked to do was ethical. Being a dedicated worker 264 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: wasn't enough. In fact, being a dedicated worker was enough 265 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: to get to in trouble. I was so fearful we 266 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 1: made the decision that we were going to be moving 267 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 1: to Canada. You're hearing the voice of Paul Glasson. A 268 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 1: child partaker serves his worker who was so hounded and 269 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 1: so maligned after he tried to stop the case against 270 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: this little girl's father, Andy Rodriguez, he was fired and 271 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: believed he had to move to Canada with me. In 272 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: addition to an all star pan is Paul Blossom. Paul, 273 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 1: what led you to think you needed to move to Canada? Well, 274 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,360 Speaker 1: I had a son who was only five years old 275 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: at that time, coincidentally about the same age as Pastor 276 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: Robertson's daughter. And at first, even with the witness tampering charge, 277 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 1: they were simply saying I was a bad social worker. 278 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 1: But I learned eventually that Perez wasn't satisfied with that 279 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: and started to get witnesses to suggest that I was 280 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: also part of the child abuse, the circle of child 281 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 1: abusers and once I heard that, I knew that my 282 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 1: child was vulnerable, that they could justify picking my child up, 283 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:03,679 Speaker 1: putting him into foster care, subjecting him to the psychiatric 284 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: care that they used on children. And I called Steve, 285 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: Steve Lacy, my attorney, and I said, you can tell 286 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 1: the prosecutor I'm available anytime he wants to talk to me. 287 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: I'll return from Canada to appear, but I'm getting my 288 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: child out of their jurisdiction so that they can't get 289 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 1: at him. And at the time that I decided that, 290 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 1: I felt like, well, you know, maybe in the future 291 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: I will feel I was being alarmist and this was 292 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: foolish for me to leave the country with my child, 293 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,360 Speaker 1: but I'd rather be safe than sorry. What did your 294 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: wife say? I don't think my wife completely understood what 295 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: was going on, As you've said so accurately, all of 296 00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: this was incredible, literally incredible, unbelievable. Did she go with you? 297 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: She did not. Right away. We owned a house there. 298 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: My wife was an instructor at Wenatchi Valley's College. In fact, 299 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 1: it was interesting when you mentioned Bob Devereaux and the 300 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: girls in his home. I would sometimes hear from my 301 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 1: wife about the girls in the Devereaux home who were 302 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:26,120 Speaker 1: students of hers at the college, because Bob encouraged them 303 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: to go on with their education, you know. To Steve Lacy, 304 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: the defense attorney for Paul and others, it almost sounds 305 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: like an Orwellian work of fiction where the state can 306 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 1: just randomly decide to just take you and claim the 307 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 1: worst thing about a parent, that you have raped or 308 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: molested your own children. It doesn't really seem real, Steve, 309 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: but it is. It did not take it did not 310 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: take more than an hour or so of reading the 311 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: police reports, the works of fiction that mister Prez created, 312 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: Blob Prez created for these cases for me to realize 313 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 1: that something was really a miss I mean, Tom, did 314 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: you talk to the prosecutors and say this. I mean, 315 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: I would see a defense attorney coming from the end 316 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 1: of the hall at the courthouse and go, h here 317 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 1: she comes to some story about their client and do 318 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: it and blah blah. But there were occasions when the 319 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: lawyer was say listen, this is real. He did not 320 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: do it, and this is why, and prosecutors have a 321 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:52,199 Speaker 1: duty to listen. The story of mister Debeau's case was 322 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,479 Speaker 1: a case study in exactly what you're talking about. I 323 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: didn't lack credibility with the prosecutors of Banazis because my 324 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: previous encounters with them, But after reading the reports, and 325 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 1: Tom Grant can probably attest to what some of them, 326 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 1: how fantastic some of those reports were, I realized that 327 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 1: it couldn't bossibly be true what they were claiming against 328 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: mister Debel. So I rounded up one hundred and five 329 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: witnesses to basically disapprove rather than their allegations my figure 330 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 1: with child abuse. Instead of it engaging in a presumption 331 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: of innocence, you pretty pretty need pretty much needed to 332 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 1: prove innocence. And so then I took those witnesses and 333 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: everything I had to chief deputy prosecutor, who I knew, 334 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: and I went through that him in great detail, challenge 335 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 1: the prosecutor as a reason to try the case against 336 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: my client and not leave it to his chief deputy 337 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 1: who had the case. And that afternoon they showed over 338 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: my office ready to deal because they finally had an 339 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 1: attorney put the pieces together, and mister Debriel was not 340 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 1: one of the twenty nine or thirty people that went 341 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: to prison because it wasn't that hard to put it together, 342 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: and the people that were representing up to that point 343 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: the defendants and the sex so called sex spring, were 344 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:30,399 Speaker 1: undermanned contract just sense attorneys. It wasn't in sales I 345 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,640 Speaker 1: and some of you guys, good retained counsel from out 346 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: of town got involved in some of these cases fell apart. 347 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: That's what it's all we countered in the in the documentary. 348 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:48,199 Speaker 1: You know, thank god, Paul, that you had Steve Lecy 349 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: representing you, that had the money, the ability, the resources 350 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,360 Speaker 1: to know what to do to fight back satellite. Not 351 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: all of those forty three adults were as blessed as you. 352 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 1: That's absolutely right. And as he just mentioned, the public 353 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 1: Defender's office was wholly inadequate to defend the people who 354 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 1: were being charged and hustled through this legal system. And 355 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 1: it was only due to people like Steve that it 356 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,199 Speaker 1: finally was brought to halt. Paul, I got a question 357 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: for you with me CPS worker that tried to stop 358 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: the witch hunt, he ended up getting fired and having 359 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: to flee to Canada with his five year old son. 360 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: What was it that led you to think they were 361 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 1: going to take your son and turn him against you. Well, 362 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: they'd already taken Pastor Robertson Conye Robertson's daughter, and I 363 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: knew because I worked in the office that they used 364 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 1: psychiatric services. They had a whole cadre of private counselors 365 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: in the community who purported to be specialist in child 366 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:18,399 Speaker 1: of use cases, and they would counsel these children to 367 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 1: build their testimonies for court cases. As we know, in 368 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 1: one instance they even sent a teenager. I'm sure in 369 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 1: more than one instance, they sent a teenager to a 370 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 1: psychiatric hospital in Idaho and Cordelaine, Idaho, and she ran away, 371 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 1: she did, and she very famously as soon as she 372 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: was released after a month there gotten taught in touch 373 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: with Tom Grant and said she wanted to be interviewed 374 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: for television. And she said, you know, I've just spent 375 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: a month being drugged and brainwashed and to try to 376 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: get me to say my parents did things they never did. 377 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 1: Tom Grant with me right now. Ward winning Journalists co 378 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 1: Executi producer in the Value of Sin. Do you remember 379 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: that moment? Oh, yeah, very well. I was standing covering 380 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: another story when this little blonde girl shows up and 381 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 1: starts telling me these horrible stories, but about how she'd 382 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: been mistreated in order to try to make her a 383 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: witness against her parents. And that was Sam dogg At, 384 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: one of my heroes in this case. But I have 385 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: to tell you go back to Paul glass and Paul 386 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 1: Glasson was the reason why I decided to do the story. 387 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: I came down and did interviews with a number of people, 388 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: but it was Paul Glasson who was so credible and 389 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,159 Speaker 1: so steady. It had written evidence that he'd maintained that 390 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: showed that Annie Rodriguez had immediately recanted, and he I thought, 391 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: once we interviewed him, this case would turn around because 392 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: he was so credible that but nobody would believe the 393 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: story if it didn't fit their preconceived notions that there 394 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: was this horrible sextoring occurring. When Age Special guests joining 395 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 1: me now Teresa Gil Professor of psychology, a psychotherapist twenty 396 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: five years working with child abuse and trauma victims. She's 397 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: actually doctor Teresa Gil and author Doctor Gil. I'm just 398 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: a JD. You're the doctor. What do you make of this? 399 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: When I was watching a documentary? At first, I was 400 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: just mind bottled and it feels fictional. But after listening 401 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: to the testimonies and the stories of the people who 402 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 1: were impacted by this. It was just a lot of 403 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: sadness that came over me because I don't really know 404 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: how you undo the pain and the terror of being 405 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: accused of child sexual abuse and having a children taken 406 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: from you and putting in force to care. And when 407 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: you listen to the children, they talk about the pain 408 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: that they experienced, the fear that they experienced, but also 409 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: the tremendous amount of guilt that they experienced in saying 410 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: that their parents sexually abused them. But at the same time, 411 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: this man Perez, when he was interviewing them, he would 412 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,479 Speaker 1: stand up and posture over them, he would threaten them. 413 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: He had a gun on the table. Well, he was 414 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: threatening that they would never see their parents again and 415 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: they would be enforced to care or in juvenile detention center, 416 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: and their parents were going to be put in prison. 417 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: And he also said, but if you sign this, and 418 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: if you say this, I'll let you go back to 419 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: your parents. What you had was a sociopath who had 420 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: a lot of power and control in his position, and 421 00:30:47,240 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: he manipulated it and he had no conscience. Crime stories 422 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, How did everything go so wrong? Take 423 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: a listen to this. I remember this page. Tell Tell Tell, Tell, 424 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: Tell tell see you know what happened. You just don't 425 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: know you're supposed to say anything, but you have to tell, Tell, Tell, Tell, Tell, 426 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: Tell Tell. You are hearing one of the alleged child 427 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: abuse victims, Rebecca Osborne, talking about what she was quote 428 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: supposed to say on the stand. Tom Grant, tell me 429 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: about Rebecca. Rebecca was five years old at that time, 430 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: when she was you know, when her parents were arrested. 431 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: She was then placed with her grandmother through family members, 432 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: and then police came and ripped her away from her 433 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: grandmother and placed her in custody of foster homes. And 434 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 1: these kinds of you know, therapists who were who were 435 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: pushing her to try and make an accusation. She has 436 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: been tremendously brave, you know, and but you know, and 437 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: she refused to make allegations against her parents, and yet 438 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: you know, it is waged and weighed tremendously on her 439 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: over the years, and it's just it's so painful to 440 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: watch her now because she tells the most heartbreaking story, 441 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: first of all, being taken away from her parents and 442 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 1: taken to her grandparents and every night, the grandmother would say, 443 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: pray to God his angels surround you and protect you. 444 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: Then they came and took her from her grandmother, and 445 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: the last thing her grandma said to her as she 446 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 1: was being taken was keep praying that God says his 447 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: angels to protect you. It's just very, very upsetting. And 448 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: when I think of the little girl, Rebecca living through that, 449 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: and I think Detective Perez forcing these children into these 450 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: statements pointing the finger at their parents. To you, Paul 451 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: glasson what do you think motivated Perez? Well, I've been 452 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: asked that many times, both back in nineteen ninety five, 453 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: ninety six and since, and I've always thought that you 454 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,239 Speaker 1: and you were familiar with that. I'm sure from your 455 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: illegal backgrounds that crimes are not all the same. In 456 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: the public's eye. We will overlook white collar crime, you know, 457 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: to the extent of millions of dollars, But there are 458 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: some crimes we love to hate, and one of them, 459 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: of course, is child abuse and neglect. And that wasn't 460 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 1: wasted on somebody like Perez. He knew that getting a 461 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: reputation for being tough on this particular crime was good 462 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: for his career. To you. Attorney Steve Lacy, former mayor 463 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 1: of Eastwanachie, who actually represented Paul Glasson. I've been asked 464 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: that too. The motivation of Detective Perez and all the 465 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 1: others syncophants it sucked up to him and stood by 466 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 1: while this happened. I mean, I guess they saw what 467 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: happened to Paul. He got fired immediately, he was accused 468 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: of witness tampering and moved to Canada ran with his son. 469 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: What motivated him? Well, I agree with generally with what 470 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: Paul just said, but I have a different take on 471 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: the motivation. By that mister Perez had given my knowledge 472 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: of how the inner workings the DSHS went. And remember 473 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 1: that I had the value of aving the CWS supervisor. 474 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 1: One of Esquez is my client for many, many years. 475 00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,880 Speaker 1: And the motivation you think was his motivation primarily was 476 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 1: his ego. But Matt ties into building his career. But 477 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: he also had the emotional support of a whole host 478 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 1: of CPS and some CUS workers who basically latted him 479 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: as a hero that just fed mister Press's ego. Something 480 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,399 Speaker 1: cares he felt that support he was there. These are 481 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 1: people that literally acted like groupies toward mister Press, with 482 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: the exception of Paul, who kind of saw what was 483 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,920 Speaker 1: going on. These people were working behind the scenes as 484 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,840 Speaker 1: hard as they could to get these disclosures to be made. 485 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 1: Juanna told me something later or during the course of 486 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: my representation of her. It kind of explained a lot 487 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 1: to me, and I'll share with you. She said that 488 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: at that time, if children were in foster care because 489 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: of abuse or neglect the word still physical abuse or neglect, 490 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:06,280 Speaker 1: there was one payment given to the foster care people, 491 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: the foster care parents. But if the kid had disclosed 492 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 1: and was considered a child abuse victim, a sex abuse victim, 493 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 1: that the amount of compensate, and it wasn't really compensation, 494 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: was more of a stipend that was given to the 495 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:28,280 Speaker 1: foster parents was about twice what they would have gotten otherwise, 496 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: which gave the foster parents themselves. Remember a lot of 497 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: these allegations, a lot of these case workers and foster 498 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: parents were instigators and bringing these kids forward with these 499 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,800 Speaker 1: allegations and treating them in ways. The kids that didn't 500 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: make allegations were not treated, and they were given better treatment, 501 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,479 Speaker 1: more attention. And so you'd wonder why kid is five 502 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 1: seventy eight ten eleven years old, will all of a 503 00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 1: sudden turn on a foster parent, or, like to Debrie 504 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 1: in his case, alive, it had to do with the 505 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 1: fact that there was something in it, not just for 506 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 1: the caseworkers and the thoughts appearance, but even for the 507 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: child because of what they perceived to be would be 508 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:17,840 Speaker 1: more favorable treatment if they were actually disclosed. Something to 509 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 1: Paul Glasson, who was actually fired when he tried to stop, 510 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: they went actually witch hunt and ultimately fled to Canada 511 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: with his five year old son. Paul, when did you 512 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: realize your coworkers at CPS we're going along with this 513 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,319 Speaker 1: and actually thinking the worst of you. Well, there were 514 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 1: some indications even before the disclosure. The recantation by Ammy 515 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: pres was just as Steve as describing. He wasn't above 516 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: bragging about his powers and what he was going to do. 517 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 1: And when I said that, I was uncomfortable with the 518 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: way he was speaking in public about our foster families, 519 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:09,799 Speaker 1: foster parents. That's when I think to begin to other 520 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 1: people in office began to realize, Oh, Paul's not going 521 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: to go along with this. Juanna Vasquez, my supervisor, she 522 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 1: warned me, she said, you know, once you started to 523 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 1: question Perez's behavior, that was it. You were no longer 524 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 1: on the inside group, the group that supported Perez. Gosh, 525 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:34,719 Speaker 1: I can't imagine your whole world crushing in around you 526 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 1: and speaking of Perez. Listen to this ran me through it. 527 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: You're gonna see this, this, and this happened. You've seen 528 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 1: this happened at the church. You've seen these kids were involved, 529 00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 1: you know, and you just stick to basically stick to 530 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:55,279 Speaker 1: the script, right, Just say what we want you to say, 531 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: and you'll see your parents again. But if you don't 532 00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,399 Speaker 1: say what we want you to say, you're never gonna 533 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:09,399 Speaker 1: see him again. And I just kept praying, Lord, let 534 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: her tell the truth. We raised her right and let 535 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,800 Speaker 1: her tell the truth. Let the truth come forward. How 536 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:21,320 Speaker 1: this has torn apartner just a community, but a country 537 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 1: that learned of it, and most important, torn apart children 538 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:31,960 Speaker 1: from their parents, from their mother and their father. What 539 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 1: happens in the Dogget and Robisson trials. What happened to 540 00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:42,320 Speaker 1: them after these claims were so brutally made against them, 541 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 1: after their children tried to recant, believe it or not, 542 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: they go to trial. That's next in the Valley of 543 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:57,280 Speaker 1: sin Nancy Grace Crime Story, signing off goodbye friend,