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Speaker 1: Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. All of us here at

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Speaker 1: on Sirius XM one eleven the Triumph Channel. Free Listening

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Speaker 1: for you runs until May fifteen. Sirius XM, thank you

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Speaker 1: for letting our listeners listen for free and for being

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Speaker 1: our partner. How did two convicted killers manage to dig

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Speaker 1: their way out of one of the most rock solid

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Speaker 1: SEI correctional institutes known? Clinton and Dana Mora. How did

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Speaker 1: they do it? How did they not get caught? Did

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Speaker 1: they have inside help? Two convict to killers, one a

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Speaker 1: cop killer, the other gets his victim, drives him around

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Speaker 1: and the trunk of his car, then snaps his neck

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Speaker 1: with his bare hands. These are the two that manage

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Speaker 1: to emerge from Clinton CI blocks away from the jailhouse.

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Speaker 1: How did they do it and what was left in

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Speaker 1: the aftermath? I mean, it'sy Grace. This is crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: How do two convicted murderers manage to walk free? We

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Speaker 1: have heard of daring escapes in the past. Ted Bundy

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Speaker 1: managed to do it? Did they do it and did

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Speaker 1: they have help from the inside? I mean, it's Grace.

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Speaker 1: This is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us

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Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM one eleven jaculates

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Speaker 1: kick it off. Here's ABC News correspondent Geo Benitez being

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Speaker 1: the lookout for to escapes from Clinton County Question Facility tonight.

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Speaker 1: The first convicts to ever break out of this maximum

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Speaker 1: security prison are on the run to days and counting.

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Speaker 1: Thirty four year old David Sweat and forty eight year

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Speaker 1: old Richard Matt both convicted murderers, now gone without a

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Speaker 1: trace from the Clinton Correctional Facility in upstate New York.

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Speaker 1: They could be literally anywhere. We're leaving no stone unturned,

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Speaker 1: reminiscent of the Hollywood blockbuster the Shawshank Redemption. Officials say

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Speaker 1: the men were last seen in their adjoining sales at

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Speaker 1: ten thirty pm Friday night for bedcheck, and reported missing

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Speaker 1: at bedcheck the following morning at five thirty am, leaving

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Speaker 1: this note behind reading have a nice day in their

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Speaker 1: empty beds. Clothing was arranged to make it look like

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Speaker 1: someone was sleeping. You know, the thought of an escape

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Speaker 1: from behind bars for everybody to bellow be on the

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Speaker 1: lookout is scary if you've ever actually been behind bars

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Speaker 1: and met the people who are there, specifically convicted killers.

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Speaker 1: I've sat in court many a time, and I would

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Speaker 1: be trying a murder case, or even a serial murder

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Speaker 1: or a spree murder case and look over at the defendant,

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Speaker 1: of course, not while the jury was there. Didn't want

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Speaker 1: them to see that. And wonder do they have any

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Speaker 1: idea of the wake of pain they have left behind them,

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Speaker 1: Like a boat going across a lake. And you see

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Speaker 1: the wake behind the boat. It goes on and on,

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Speaker 1: and the ripple effects seemed to never end. And then

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Speaker 1: I would look them in the eye, not every time,

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Speaker 1: but so often they would look back at me, and

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Speaker 1: it would be as if I were looking at a

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Speaker 1: frog or a snake, a cold blooded creature that seemingly

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Speaker 1: had no emotion or feelings at all. That's just who

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Speaker 1: escaped from the Clinton CEI to Convicted Killers with Me

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Speaker 1: an all star panel, first of all, renowned lawyer joining me.

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Speaker 1: Attorney with Butler Snow, Legal counsel for various municipalities, Jim Elliott.

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Speaker 1: You can find them at Butler Snow dot com. Stephen Lampley,

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Speaker 1: former detective, author of Outside Your Door. Well that's not

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Speaker 1: enough to scare you. I don't know what will. Stephen

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Speaker 1: Lampley dot com, professor flood Beneath my Feet on Amazon

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Speaker 1: Death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan, renowned psychiatrists joining me from

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Speaker 1: the Atlantic. Boy, do I need a shrink? But straight

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Speaker 1: out to Crime Online dot com investigative journalists Alexis Terres

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Speaker 1: Chuck Alexis. They thought, especially when you live around a

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Speaker 1: CI of one of the no I don't mean a

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Speaker 1: low level dope addict or a low level dope dealer.

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Speaker 1: There are low level dope dealers. They send, they sell

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Speaker 1: maybe one five hits. I'm not talking about a drug lord,

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Speaker 1: a stolen car, blah blah blah. I'm not talking about that. Alexis,

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Speaker 1: You've got a baby boy. What if you had a

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Speaker 1: home and out in a rural area and suddenly they

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Speaker 1: build a CI a mile from you and you're stuck,

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Speaker 1: and then two convicted murderers escape, broke out a dude

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Speaker 1: and it is absolutely terrifying to dards. And that's the thing.

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Speaker 1: And these guys are not, as you said, low level criminals.

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Speaker 1: They're not like a little drug dealer who sold, you know,

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Speaker 1: a small bit of drugs. These guys are murderers. In fact, one,

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Speaker 1: David Sweat is a cop killer. He murdered a police officer.

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Speaker 1: Alexis Urez, Chuck, David Sweat and Richard Matt let's just

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Speaker 1: start with that. Who are these guys? So David Sweat,

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Speaker 1: he was really young, he was got you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: shootout with a police officer. Are you trying to make

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Speaker 1: me feel sorry for him because he's young? He's a

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Speaker 1: cop killer. M well, I was just saying that when

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Speaker 1: he was so young to be so evil. You know,

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Speaker 1: this guy was twenty three years old when he murdered

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Speaker 1: a police officer. Now, hold on just a moment, just

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Speaker 1: just just a moment. Let's just for argument's sake. When

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Speaker 1: I was twenty three, I had ordered in the victim

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Speaker 1: of violent crime, went back to undergrad to make up

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Speaker 1: for all the time that I lost when I dropped

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Speaker 1: out of school after the murder, got through law school.

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Speaker 1: Putting myself through with three jobs not easy. But let's

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Speaker 1: think about somebody else. My dad, he had already lied

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Speaker 1: to the US Navy and was on the other side

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Speaker 1: of the world fighting for his country. Let's see my

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Speaker 1: mom at twenty three. She probably already had one of

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Speaker 1: us twenty three. Hey, Joseph sky Morgan, what were you

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Speaker 1: doing when you were twenty three? Oh? Working in the

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Speaker 1: morgue and volunteering in the morning. That gives you an

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Speaker 1: idea of how insane I am. I was doing it

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Speaker 1: for free. He was just Jackie, what were you doing

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Speaker 1: when you were twenty three? I'm i'most afraid to ask

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Speaker 1: right working round the clock at CNN, So tell me

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Speaker 1: something I don't care that he's twenty three. He's a

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Speaker 1: cop killer. That's all I need to know about him.

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Speaker 1: What about the other one, Alexis so Richard Richard matt Is,

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Speaker 1: he was convicted of killing his boss. It was his boss.

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Speaker 1: He tortured him. That you were right. He was in

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Speaker 1: the trunk. He up here, you say, snapped something. He

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Speaker 1: snapped his bones, he was. I mean, he just kind

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Speaker 1: of rushed right over that. You know, I think you

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Speaker 1: may have a future as a defense lawyer. Alexis Torres Chuck.

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Speaker 1: If you ever get tired of the reporting business, you

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Speaker 1: cannot it just never trilled off of your tongue. He

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Speaker 1: snapped his victim's bones. Tell me exactly what he did

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Speaker 1: to his boss. He tortured him. He physically dismembered him.

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Speaker 1: He cut him into little pieces. He snapped his bones,

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Speaker 1: and he did this the bone snapping. He literally physically

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Speaker 1: did this with his own hand. He was so enraged

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Speaker 1: when he killed him. And that's who escapes the Clinton

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Speaker 1: c I but how did they do it? Again, Gia Benitez,

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Speaker 1: All the use was the hacksaw Blaze figured out, so

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Speaker 1: that would make sense on the length of time that

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Speaker 1: it took them to do it. By February, he has

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Speaker 1: methodically cut through the steel wall of his cell three

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Speaker 1: eighths of an inch thick, and continues carving through the

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Speaker 1: wall of his next door neighbor two Richard Matt where

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Speaker 1: they clean holes they work. There's an air duck bantoney

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Speaker 1: to these cells, but they move dead and they're large

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Speaker 1: enough for a person in the size of matter sweat

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Speaker 1: to get through it. And so behind those cells there's

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Speaker 1: some sort of corridor righte a catwalk. It's a catwalk

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Speaker 1: that goes through the length of the back of the cells,

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Speaker 1: and there are four different tiers. Night after night, after

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Speaker 1: guards finished bed chests, sweat freely wanders those catwalks, descending

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Speaker 1: into the bowels of the prison. Okay, wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: Wait a minute. Jim Elliott, attorney, veteran trial lawyer, practices

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Speaker 1: in multiple jurisdictions. Jim Elliott, I'm sure that you've been

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Speaker 1: in plenty of jails like myself. This sounds like a movie.

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Speaker 1: I thought they were impenetrable. Absolutely, that's what you know, Syb.

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Speaker 1: We all think, and so how in the world you

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Speaker 1: get the account of a quick in there to make

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Speaker 1: that happen? But the thought of this guy. Hacks say.

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Speaker 1: This is how the two were connected. David Sweat and

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Speaker 1: Richard matt were. They shared a wall. That's how they

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Speaker 1: were wall buddies. One in this cell, one in that cell.

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Speaker 1: So for one to saw through the wall, the other

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Speaker 1: had to be part of the scheme. Crime Stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, we are talking right now about one of

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Speaker 1: the most notorious breakouts ever heard of, and the two

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Speaker 1: that break out. They're convicted killers, one a cop killer

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Speaker 1: and one who tortured his victim, literally snapped his net

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Speaker 1: with his bare hands, carried him out around in a

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Speaker 1: trunk before he killed him. These are the two that

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Speaker 1: could be sticking their foot through your back window. Let's

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Speaker 1: take a listen now to ABC's GEO Benitez. By May.

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Speaker 1: As the weather warms, the blistering steam is shut off. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: the stocky met goes on a crash diet so he's

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Speaker 1: skinny enough to slither through their escape route. To get

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Speaker 1: through the pipe, which was less than two feet in diameter,

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Speaker 1: and to get through the wallet they broke, he had

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Speaker 1: to lose weight, and even then, Sweat says he had

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Speaker 1: difficulty getting through. By that night in June, it's all

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Speaker 1: systems go. They execute their plan to perfection. They come

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Speaker 1: out of the pipe near a manhole cover and emerge

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Speaker 1: on the street a block from the prison. They leave

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Speaker 1: behind a twisted calling card, this tiny note have a

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Speaker 1: nice day, and there's that taunting message they left behind,

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Speaker 1: obviously to us. So there you are hearing information glean

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Speaker 1: from other inmates seemingly new about the breakout, and we

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Speaker 1: now learn that they dieted you know who. That reminds

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Speaker 1: me of Stephen Lampley, detective author of Outside Your Door

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Speaker 1: at Stephen Lampley dot com. It reminds me of Ted

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Speaker 1: Bundy who escaped not once but twice, and he kept

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Speaker 1: loose it through. I think it was a lighting fixture.

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Speaker 1: Uh do you remember that, Lampley? I do? I do? Nancy?

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Speaker 1: Then and this guy there, these two, the gentleman that

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Speaker 1: broke up mind who was already slender, and the older gentleman,

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Speaker 1: of course, was the weight problem, so to speak, and

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Speaker 1: had to lose weight in order to get through the

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Speaker 1: air duct in his celler. That's my understanding. And think

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Speaker 1: about this Steve at night after they had sawed through,

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Speaker 1: and they couldn't escape down that heat duct because it

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Speaker 1: was so it would it would burn them. They couldn't

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Speaker 1: go down it. They had to wait until the spring,

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Speaker 1: until May before they could make their escape. And that's

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Speaker 1: exactly what they did. But these heat ducks are only

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Speaker 1: about about that wantage to hack saw through their cell walls,

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Speaker 1: get into the heat up and go all the way down.

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Speaker 1: And for weeks on end, maybe even months, they had

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Speaker 1: been going through the ducks at night and going down

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Speaker 1: in the bowels of the prison, just walking around on

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Speaker 1: the interior of the prison. Wow. Okay, So they make

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Speaker 1: their way out to doctor Angela, Arnold's psychiatrist. The other

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Speaker 1: inmates that may have known about the escape plan, but

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Speaker 1: they never said a word. What is that mentality? Never

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Speaker 1: to say a word? Well, do we know that they

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Speaker 1: knew about the escape? Well from what perhaps and maybe

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Speaker 1: they were threatened. I think you just hit the nail

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Speaker 1: on the head, because life behind bars isn't anything like

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Speaker 1: life on the outside. If you snitch, as my son

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Speaker 1: always says, snitches get stitches, you'll die behind bars, especially

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Speaker 1: if you're snitch on a convicted killer Doctor Angela. And

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Speaker 1: these guys are mean, aren't they. They aren't letting anything

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Speaker 1: get in their path, are they? I know they're not,

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Speaker 1: so how does it progress from there? How did they

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Speaker 1: manage to make their way out? We also heard that

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Speaker 1: they had a hack saw, that they had a hack

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Speaker 1: saw behind bars. Take a listen now to ABC's twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty owner John Stockwell and his black lab Dolly were

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Speaker 1: checking up on the cabin when they saw signs of

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Speaker 1: unwanted activity and challenged any of the occupants by saying,

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Speaker 1: who's in there? You better come out? Who's in there?

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Speaker 1: You need to come out now. Whoever was on the

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Speaker 1: back deck fled down the bank, and he could tell

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Speaker 1: that because he could hear the crashing through the brush. Inside,

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Speaker 1: Stockwell finds more signs that something's a miss a misplaced

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Speaker 1: coffee pot, a missing shotgun that had been hidden between

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Speaker 1: two mattresses, a map ripped off the wall. Stockwell quickly

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Speaker 1: alerts authorities, who find more evidence that Sweat is the

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Speaker 1: careful criminal and Matt the wild card. Sweat had wanted

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Speaker 1: to leave Matt's position. Was no sense in leaving just yet.

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Speaker 1: And if somebody intrudes upon our occupancy at the cabin,

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Speaker 1: you know, frankly, we're ready to deal with them. Now.

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Speaker 1: I have a shotgun. Yeah, we could we could kill them,

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Speaker 1: we could take them hostage. Sweat prevailed with the logic

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Speaker 1: of let's get out of here. You are hearing our

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Speaker 1: friend over at ABC twenty twenty. That was Lindsay Janice.

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Speaker 1: So alexis terres shut. To add more to the drama,

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Speaker 1: the two guys had very very different personalities. Well, can

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Speaker 1: you tell me about this mountain cabin. So the mountain cabin.

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Speaker 1: These cabins are owned by the locals. They're up, they're

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Speaker 1: very deserted. But you know what is in all of

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Speaker 1: these mountain cabins a lot of weapons and a lot

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Speaker 1: of ammunition. These people's doctor. I don't want to use

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Speaker 1: the word stocpol because I feel like that sounds like

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Speaker 1: it's something to very see people. All legally, the owners

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Speaker 1: of the cabins legally owned all of all of these weapons,

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Speaker 1: and they legally own the ammy, but they kept it

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Speaker 1: up there because these are you know, rural areas to

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Speaker 1: all of these cabins had a lot of weapons in them,

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Speaker 1: they had maps of the area, they had food, they

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Speaker 1: had perfect hideout spots for these guys, and they were

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Speaker 1: going from breaking in cabin and cabins, stealing guns, stealing bullets,

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Speaker 1: steal eating their food, sleeping in their beds, but trying

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Speaker 1: to really keep a low profile, like not turning on

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Speaker 1: bites or anything like that, because they didn't want to

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Speaker 1: alert the authorities. Because the authorities knew they were up there,

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Speaker 1: they just had to view in on which cabin they

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Speaker 1: were in. You know, what's what I'm thinking about right

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Speaker 1: now to doctor Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrists joining me out

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Speaker 1: of Atlanta. Interesting to me that the owner of that

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Speaker 1: cabin and he knows somebody's been there. You know what's

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Speaker 1: interesting our little idiosyncrasies. For instance, if I were to

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Speaker 1: walk into the kitchen in the morning and see a

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Speaker 1: chair out of place, or or a knife, a butcher

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Speaker 1: knife sitting out, or a utensil, the least little things

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Speaker 1: were really creatures of habit and that's what really led

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Speaker 1: the investors of the teapot that had been moved. Isn't

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Speaker 1: that interesting that one little detail, Doctor Angela? Well, I

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Speaker 1: think that we all have a little touch of OCD

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Speaker 1: in all of us, and I would I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I go that far, but go ahead. Well, I

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Speaker 1: mean I think it's I think it works well for

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Speaker 1: some people. And I also think that there could be

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Speaker 1: a little bit of paranoia, different levels of paranoia in

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Speaker 1: the people who own these cabins that are full of

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Speaker 1: ammunition and guns. I'm not gonna come out against hunters.

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Speaker 1: I'm not a hunter myself. I'm not. You don't like

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Speaker 1: guns at all. I hate guns. To me, every gun

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Speaker 1: was like a rattled snake. But in my mind, that's

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Speaker 1: in the constitution. And I'm not gonna mess with a constitution.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I disagree with you, doctor Angel, and

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Speaker 1: I know I'm getting in deep water here because you're

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Speaker 1: the MD. I'm just a JD. But the reality to you,

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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, you have analyzed a million crime scenes.

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Speaker 1: The reality is that we are creatures born of millions

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Speaker 1: of years, millions of years of evolution, and we look

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Speaker 1: around a room and see a million things at once,

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Speaker 1: and we process it. So when you walk into a

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Speaker 1: room and you see I have a special teapot, j Scott,

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Speaker 1: I have a special teapot. And when I'm in New York,

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Speaker 1: catch this, I point it toward home. When I am

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Speaker 1: in Georgia, I pointed toward New York. It's just a

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Speaker 1: little idiosyncracy. I don't know Nancy, and this is this

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Speaker 1: is the this is the interesting thing. It's also heightened

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Speaker 1: by this guy you're referring to this as his cabin.

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Speaker 1: This is you know, for me, I love going to

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Speaker 1: a cabin. This is your happy place. This is the

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Speaker 1: thing that that's kind of imprinted on your brain. You're thinking,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go here and escape in a good way.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to forget everything, and you're you're anticipating this

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Speaker 1: moment you walk through the door, and it's not as

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Speaker 1: if it's not it's not in the condition in which

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Speaker 1: you left it. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: let me use a different example. Okay, forget the teapots. Pertinue.

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Speaker 1: You didn't hear that that it's gone, it's gone. Erase, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this studio. I know that Jackie. Every day when she leaves,

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Speaker 1: she shuts the door and she cuts the lights off.

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Speaker 1: She does a million other things too. If I walked

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Speaker 1: in here and a light was on, I would know

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Speaker 1: something was amiss because that's just not her standard routine

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Speaker 1: and practice. But wait a minute, wait a minute, before

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Speaker 1: I get onto the light switch and the teapot, how

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Speaker 1: the hey did they get a Hacksaw Crime Stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Everybody did I thank you for being with

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Speaker 1: us here at Fox Nation and series one eleven. Here

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Speaker 1: at Crime Stories, we are talking about one of the

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Speaker 1: biggest breakouts and jail house history. Two convicted killers bust

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Speaker 1: out of Clinton CEI how did they get a Hacksaw.

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Speaker 1: Let's just start with that. Take a listen to our

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Speaker 1: friend Brian Todd. Inmate Eric Jensen worked at the Clinton

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Speaker 1: Taylor Shop with Joyce Mitchell and David Sweat, and tonight

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Speaker 1: he drops a bombshell. Jensen says, about four times a week,

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Speaker 1: Mitchell and Sweat would disappear into a closet at the

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Speaker 1: Taylor's shop, sometimes for a half hour or forty five minutes.

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Speaker 1: I believe they were getting it on. I believe they

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Speaker 1: were getting it on in that back room. Mitchell's husband,

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Speaker 1: Lyle says she but Jensen says Mitchell's interactions with Sweat

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Speaker 1: suggested otherwise, giggling like a schoolgirl. And not only that,

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Speaker 1: it's actually like when when, like you know, a superstar

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Speaker 1: football player, he asked a girl out on a date

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Speaker 1: or for the prim or something like that. Um, this

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Speaker 1: is not the superstar football player asking her to go

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Speaker 1: to the prom. This is having sex in the closet

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Speaker 1: with a convicted killer at clinton CI. Let's just let's

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Speaker 1: make that clear distinction. Although I appreciate the analogy, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much in May, Eric Jensen. So now we're

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Speaker 1: getting a picture of what may have happened. Let me

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Speaker 1: understand this. I think I need a shrink before I

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Speaker 1: can take another step. Doctor Angela Arnold. She has a

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Speaker 1: husband that she's been with for years and years and years.

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Speaker 1: He's always stuck by her. What is she doing in

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Speaker 1: a closet with an inmate for half an hour giggling? Well,

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Speaker 1: I have a feeling these inmates are very medipulousives and persuasives,

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Speaker 1: and It'll be a cold day in huble L before

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Speaker 1: I get in a closet with anybody number one. Apparently

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Speaker 1: this goes on at these places, doesn't it. Well, I

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Speaker 1: don't know anything about that. They saw some sort of

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Speaker 1: weakness in her, and they made her feel good about herself,

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Speaker 1: and they they took her in, didn't they. What we

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Speaker 1: understand is that Mitchell was having a sex relationship with

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Speaker 1: Richard Matt that she sent naked pictures to David. Sweat

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Speaker 1: admits to smuggling in tools. Now, remember these two are

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Speaker 1: on the run. Matt gives Mitchell peels to give to

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Speaker 1: her husband on the day of the escape. Straight down

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Speaker 1: to Alexas Terreschuk, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. So

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Speaker 1: the investigation turns toward the prison seamstress Joyce Mitchell. It

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Speaker 1: sounds as if the plan was much bigger than an escape,

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Speaker 1: that they were planning to kill her husband Lyle. Yep,

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Speaker 1: she had planned in fact, so when they broke out

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Speaker 1: of the prison, she was supposed to meet them. You know,

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Speaker 1: they popped up one block away. She was supposed to

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Speaker 1: drive her jeep and meet them there and take them

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Speaker 1: and then three of them were going to go back

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Speaker 1: to her house, get rid of her husband, and then

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Speaker 1: go on together. Alexas Treschuk, we remember what happened with

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Speaker 1: one of these guys when he took his boss on

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Speaker 1: a rady trip. The boss ended up in the trunk

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Speaker 1: with his next snapped. Remember that, yep, So it probably

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have ended up very well for her. Doctor Angela

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Speaker 1: Arnold made a very good point. A lot of these inmates,

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Speaker 1: they're charismatic. I remember for years, in the years Jim Elliott.

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Speaker 1: I was in one of the busiest courtrooms in inner

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Speaker 1: city Atlanta. We tried more cases in that courtroom than

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Speaker 1: any other courtroom. And I'll tell you why. As an aside,

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Speaker 1: I had the oldest I was assigned to the courtroom

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Speaker 1: to run the state's business. I had the oldest judge

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Speaker 1: in the courthouse, Luther Alverson, but he was Shadies Jim.

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Speaker 1: He was so old he got grandfathered in under the

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Speaker 1: mandatory retireminat he didn't have to retire, so he was

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Speaker 1: hell bent on showing everybody that he was fit to

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Speaker 1: stay on the bench, which he was. He wanted to

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Speaker 1: keep the lowest jail count in the Fulton County jail.

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Speaker 1: Jail count means the people languishing in jail waiting for

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Speaker 1: you to either plead him out, drop the case, or

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Speaker 1: go to trial, and it would go out every Monday

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Speaker 1: the jail count. What judge wasn't handling his or her

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Speaker 1: b business and had a high jail count, so we

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Speaker 1: would have to be on trial every other week to

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Speaker 1: keep our jail count down. I don't care. It could

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Speaker 1: have been a drug case, a murder case, a rate

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Speaker 1: grand theft, it didn't matter. We had to move those cases.

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Speaker 1: So long story short, I would do a lot of

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Speaker 1: plea negotiations, and in that court, I would directly negotiate

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Speaker 1: with the defendants sitting there and their lawyer. Some of

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Speaker 1: them could be very persuasive and very charismatic. Of course,

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Speaker 1: it meant nothing to me because I would read the

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Speaker 1: police report and believe the cop But they are very

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Speaker 1: charismatic sometimes, yes, And clearly the judge was well aware

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Speaker 1: of how manipulative a lot of these people are and

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Speaker 1: that was his goal was too. But then where they

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Speaker 1: needed to be. My point is, I can see how

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Speaker 1: this seems to struck up a friendship with these two

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Speaker 1: convicted killers, because she would be with them every day

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Speaker 1: and somewhat non threatening situation, but falling for one and

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Speaker 1: making out having sex in the broom closet, that's a

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Speaker 1: little beyond the pill. Agree or disagree, Jim Elliott, and

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Speaker 1: then they saw her to be perhaps they're route out

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Speaker 1: and so then flattery and all that sort of things.

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Speaker 1: So you know that's that was going to be their escape. Well,

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Speaker 1: Alexis Terreschuk, you hear what Jim Elliott is saying, but

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Speaker 1: how do you explain sending one inmate nude photos of

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Speaker 1: yourself and having sex on the closet with the other one. Well,

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Speaker 1: you explained it as she was really in love or

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Speaker 1: in lust with these guys, and she was definitely wanting

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Speaker 1: to keep the work romance going. You people talk about

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00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,360
Speaker 1: having a work husband. Her hockey went out a guard.

425
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 1: He worked in another part of the prison. So all

426
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: this carrying on with these two inmates was happening while

427
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: her husband was working at the exact same place, right

428
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: under his nose. And I guess the inmates thought at

429
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 1: some point they were going to kill the husband Lyle,

430
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: because we understand that she got two pills to give

431
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 1: her husband that I guess we're going to sedate him

432
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: to kill him. Let's take a listen now to ABC's

433
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: GEO Benitez. I'm sure once they realized that they could

434
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: manipulate Joyce into bringing in the tools, that was the

435
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: first step. What did she give them haxab blades, drill bits,

436
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: a punch tool, a couple of the lay of eyeglasses

437
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: that have lights on them. She later then provided batteries

438
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: for those lights. But while he claims she had helped

439
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 1: a guard on their unit named Gene Palmer, who brought

440
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 1: ground beef to the prisoners with the critical saw blades

441
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: hidden inside. It was a cool officer down to earth.

442
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: I don't think he had anything any knowledge about what

443
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: was in that meet. Palmer says he had no idea,

444
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: but admits he cut corners other times, helping men on

445
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: other prisoners, now properly equipped, while he says, sweat begins

446
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 1: gnawing through the walls of Clinton Prison like a rat

447
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 1: through rope after months of nocturnal labor. It's Friday, June fifth.

448
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 1: In the Tiller shops. That day, Matt allectedly tells Joyce

449
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: the time has come Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys,

450
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: we are talking about one of the most notorious prison

451
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 1: breaks ever known out of Clinton CEI to convicted killers

452
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 1: managed to escape with the help of the prison same mistress.

453
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 1: The way it looks right now, Joyce Mitchell, take a

454
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: listen to our friend, Geo Benitez. Mitchell would pick up

455
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: the escape ease and drive back home where they would

456
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: kill her husband. But she gets cold feet, and when

457
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: she doesn't show up, the men escape into the deep

458
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: rugged woods, launching the three week man hunt. Joyce Mitchell

459
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 1: soon under arrest. As we tracked down her husband. What

460
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: do you make of the reports that she was trying

461
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: to have you cool today, Lyle Mitchell visiting his wife

462
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: in jail? And why did she do it? I was

463
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: caught up in the fantasy, she says. I enjoyed the attention,

464
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: the feeling both of them gave me, and the thought

465
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: of a different life. Okay, I definitely need to shrink

466
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: right now, straight out to doctor Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrists

467
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: joining me out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Doctor Angela, A

468
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: different life, you know, doctor Angela. I've seen so much crime,

469
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: so much deception, so much pillaging of humanity. I'm so

470
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: happy to have an awesome husband and children. I would

471
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: never jeopardize that. What other life? What other life would

472
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: you want? Beside that? I don't get it. Well, I

473
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: have a feeling that they were very good. Here you

474
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: go blaming or blaming them, I mean, she's the one

475
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: having sex in the closet and providing a hack saw

476
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: well we also, I mean who knows what was going

477
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: on in her life and in her home? Right? I

478
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: mean who wants to be the seamstress in a prison

479
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: for goodness sake? Right? I also get the impression that

480
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 1: she felt a little empowered by us by what she

481
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: was doing, and that's why. And then boom, she came

482
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: out of that when she didn't meet them at the end.

483
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: So she does have you know, she does have sense

484
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: about her in that way. She wasn't able to do

485
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: she wasn't, but I feel like she felt empowered in

486
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: doing this. Empowered. Okay. Stephen Lampley, detective author outside your

487
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: Door at Stephen Lampley dot dot com. Have you ever

488
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: had a situation where you had co defendants, let's say

489
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: two or three, and one of them backed out at

490
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: the last minute, Because that's what she did when they

491
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 1: got out of that heat duck blocks away from the jail,

492
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: and she didn't go through with the plan to kill

493
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 1: her husband. You ever seen a defendant back out of

494
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: the plan, Nancy. It doesn't happen often, but of course

495
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: in this case it did happen. And the supposedly is

496
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: what I understand, she quote unquote got some sense about

497
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: her and didn't want her husband to be killed. And

498
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 1: I actually had a good line to lose that and

499
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 1: in defense of her, maybe that was her good point.

500
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: But again, she still did go through with the first part,

501
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: you know, like a snake charmer, the whole bunch of you.

502
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 1: It's like the snake's going like this, and I'm going

503
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: like that and going No. These are two convicted killers.

504
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: A cup killer, she helped let a cop killer at

505
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: the victim's head with his bare hands. No, no, empowered,

506
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: empowered my riant. Uh no, n oh. So these two

507
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: go on the run while she's trying to explain to

508
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: her husband. Uh well, let me think what happened in

509
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: the meantime. Take a listen to Lindsay Janis. The authorities

510
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: later learned that Sweat had gotten fed up with his

511
00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: increasingly unstable partner in crime. With the news quickly heightening,

512
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: Matt decides to hold up here for a spell. Consider

513
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: there's a little bit of food in the cupboard, yea. Eventually,

514
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 1: Natt leaves the camper and hunkers down here in the woods,

515
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: a swamp and a ravine behind him, state police lining

516
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: the road in front of him. He points that twenty

517
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 1: gage shotgun towards them, when suddenly he coughs, betraying his position,

518
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 1: and then they communicate that quality in the woodline. They're

519
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: coming up from behind where Matt is just here correct.

520
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: A Border patrol agent levels his end core assault rifle

521
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: at Matt and twice orders him to drop his shotgun.

522
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: The border patrol agent engaged inmate Matt at this location

523
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: because Matt failed to comply with his instructions. At least

524
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: three rounds struck inmate Matt. Head two Alexis Terrez Chuck,

525
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: Investigative Journalists, Crime online dot Com Alexis Terrez Chuck. The

526
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 1: two split up while they're on the run. Why they

527
00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: split up, and that was I don't know was their downfall.

528
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: But this is when it ended so Richard Matt that

529
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: the portrol agents they get him. Okay, wait a minute,

530
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: wait wait wait, Matt gets shot after he coughs and

531
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: its border patrol agent hears it. But they dynamic. The

532
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: dynamic between the two of them. To Joseph Scott Morgan,

533
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: one is hot headed, one is level headed, and it

534
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: gets to a point where they feel one of them

535
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: anyway has to split up in order to escape. I

536
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: mean it's basically the level headed one has a cement

537
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: block around his ankle, the one he couldn't control. Yeah,

538
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: you're right, and you know and once you look, these

539
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 1: guys are inside prison they're dependent upon one another to

540
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 1: escape this environment. But once they're out there, this whole

541
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: new world opens up to them, literally and it's massive.

542
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: And suddenly the faults you know in these ten circumstances

543
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 1: are right here. You see where the Achilles heel is

544
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 1: for everybody. If you got a sense about you to survive,

545
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: which you're gonna note, uh, they're they're trail and yeah,

546
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: have a nice day. And so this guy is like,

547
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,479
Speaker 1: I don't want this guy weighing me down. He's gonna

548
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: he's gonna give us away. And so they're gonna split

549
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: naturally like this this team that was on this on

550
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: the trail of these guys, these guys are trailed, are

551
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 1: are are trained in order to work in a tactical

552
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: situation where they're gonna take down and look, trust me,

553
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: these guys viols their criminals. These individuals that you know

554
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 1: had literally one of these guys that actually dismembered a man.

555
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 1: I wonder if he used that to charm this lady. Hey,

556
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:44,839
Speaker 1: did I everyone tell you about the time that you know,

557
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: I dismembered a guy. I wonder if if he wooed

558
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 1: her with that, and then you got another guy that's

559
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 1: a cop killer. So they're gonna be on their toes

560
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 1: looking for these people. It's a violent, violent, potential violent situation.

561
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: You've got these individuals that are literally sit for the

562
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: least little movement out of these guys and a cough

563
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: gives them away. You know, when you put it like that,

564
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 1: Joe Scott, just imagine the law enforcement out searching for

565
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 1: them and they know they've got a cop killer. At

566
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:21,320
Speaker 1: another guy that dismembered the victim after snapping his neck.

567
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: Take a listen to this. Sergeant Cook engages in conversation,

568
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: says hey, stop, and Sweat says no, I'm good. Sweat

569
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: kind of did a hand motion like this, framing his

570
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 1: face as if to say, what, it's not me, you know,

571
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: kind of like an unsolicited denial, which sweat head was

572
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 1: clean shaven at this point. Correct, he made the facial

573
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: gesture that he made like he got the wrong guy.

574
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 1: But Cook knew immediately I've got the right guy. This

575
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: is Sweat. It's on Suddenly it's a foot chase. Bear

576
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: in mind, and Sweat had a good twenty five yard

577
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 1: head start find Sergeant Cook. Sergeant Cook has his gun

578
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 1: drawn at this point. He's running full speed, but he

579
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: has to set himself here. Takes a deep breath. Cook,

580
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: an expert marksman, ends the manhunt with two shots, to

581
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: which Sweat dropped immediately the constable personnelity that's right, one,

582
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 1: dad one apprehended. Just so you know, we're bringing you

583
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: this story today because in the last weeks that prison

584
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 1: seems just Joyce Mitchell has walked free from jail. Nancy

585
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 1: Grace Crime Stories signing off goodbye friend,