WEBVTT - Joan Baez on learning to confront the past 0:00:04.120 --> 0:00:06.120 What do you do when life doesn't go according to 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:09.760 plan that moment you lose a job, or a loved one, 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:14.080 or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brookshields and this 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:18.759 is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as told 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:21.599 by people who lived them. Each week, I sit down 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:23.840 with a guest to talk about the times they were 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:26.920 knocked off course and what they did to move forward. 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:33.040 Some stories are funny, others are gut wrenching, but all 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:38.320 are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:42.760 every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:50.760 answers one question, Now, what are there any other risks 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:53.600 that you sit there and look back at and go, God, 0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:56.360 oh my god, I can't believe I did that. 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:01.840 I think probably Saria comes out on top of that, 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:04.840 because I was just in snipe rally, you know. But 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:12.000 there again, I'm protected by my own denial, just blocking out, 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:16.880 blocking out my mortality, and my mortality I hadn't really 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:20.160 run into until nineteen seventy two. In her noise, I thought, 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:24.120 oh god, yeah, I could die here, and kind of 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:27.160 don't really believe until it's in your face. And by 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:32.080 the way, every atheist there says Oh God, say, oh God. 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:41.720 They're praying like thunder at the end of the day. 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:44.760 My guest today is one of the leading voices of 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:49.440 her generation. Joan Biaz is a singer, songwriter, political activist, 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:53.280 and more. Her legendary soprano made her famous, but it 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:56.960 was her role in the counterculture of the nineteen sixties 0:01:57.240 --> 0:02:01.320 that made her an icon. She stood with doctor Martin 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:05.920 Luther King Junior at the March on Washington, performed at Woodstock, 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:10.480 fought to integrate schools. The list goes on. I was 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:14.400 admittedly starstruck during our interview, especially when she said we 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:17.560 should go get a cup of coffee, but mostly because 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:21.480 I had just watched I Am Noise, an incredible new 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:26.359 documentary about Joan's life. It chronicles her incredible career, her 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:31.120 efforts to uncover and heal from childhood trauma, her relationships, 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:35.160 and her activism. I'm blown away by her life's story 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:37.440 and honored that she took the time to share a 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:41.840 little of her wisdom with me. Here is Joan Bias. 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:47.040 Joan Bias. I can't believe I'm actually talking to you. 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:49.960 This is such a huge honor, and I just want 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:53.360 to say thank you for your time, and just for 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:55.400 deciding to spend any time with me. 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:57.800 I'm delighted to be here, are you, beautiful woman? 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:04.239 I was watching your documentary I am Noise. I recently 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:07.560 was part of a documentary about my own life, and 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:10.920 watching it and being in it was a very surreal 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:14.800 sort of revisitation of a lot of things in my life. 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:17.320 And I was so impressed by you and your career 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:22.760 and your messaging and your voice and your history. Why 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:28.400 did you decide that this was the appropriate time to 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:32.160 re examine all of that and share it with the public. 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:35.800 Well, a question goes for the whole film, and the 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:41.040 singing and the family, sisters and growing up and all 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:44.560 of it. Why did I decide? And it was about 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:50.520 wanting to leave an honest legacy, wanting to just go ahead. 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:53.320 I mean, I've got nothing left to lose. I'm eighty two, 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:56.560 my family's gone, so for a lot of the sensitive 0:03:56.640 --> 0:04:00.920 material that this was the time to do it. It 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:05.760 came out as I would have hoped. It stays understated, 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:09.000 but you get the general idea of what my entire 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:13.800 life was, and also things like the tapes from Birmingham, 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:16.920 you know, Hi Mummy and Popsy I'm going to meet 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.880 Martin Luther kingdomarw. I mean, how crazy is that? So 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:22.560 I don't have to tell the story. It tells itself 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:25.799 from tapes I made when I was twenty two, things 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:26.279 like that. 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:28.800 And you kept it all. I mean you kept it. 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:33.840 Was amazing seeing your doodles and your your handwriting and 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:38.520 your love for your family is evident. 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:41.919 It is. First of all, my mother kept everything. I 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:44.440 didn't keep a thing, and I had no idea it 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:47.560 was in that storeroom, nothing And when I walk in 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:49.600 and the film, it's the first time I've ever been 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:53.920 in there, so surprise, surprise, I've learned a lot. Yeah, 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:55.880 I've learned a lot from watching the film. 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:58.720 What did you learn the most? What struck you the 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:00.000 most from watching it? 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:04.760 I think things like my son, it's just the depth 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:07.000 of what he was dealing with. I knew he was 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:11.640 dealing with, you know, my not being present for so 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:15.640 many years. I didn't know how deep, how deeply it 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:18.920 affected him, and how marginal he felt, you know, And 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:23.240 I get it about feeling marginal. Hearing my sisters say 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:26.279 what they really felt about me. You know, you kind 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:29.279 of guess, but it's hard for you it's hard for 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:31.880 them to really say what they said face to face 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:34.880 with one of the directors, and they love My older 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:38.400 sister never talked to anybody anybody, wouldn't let anybody take 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:43.040 a photograph. But Karen O'Connor, one of the directors, they 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:45.640 were friends, and she just put the camera there and 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:48.520 Pauline started to talk. So I learned from that and 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:53.120 from my son, and then some of the some of 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:56.479 the therapy tapes I had, you know, I mean, I 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:57.840 want to get rid of all the rest of them. 0:05:57.880 --> 0:05:59.520 I don't even know what they say. I just know 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:03.280 they were a lot of them, and that I turning 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:06.520 the keys over to the directors. That was part of it. 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:11.400 The opening up of that storage, like the just it 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:14.080 was such a I don't know if the director intended that, 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:17.679 but that's sort of that roll up and then being 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:21.400 confronted with all of this in the film. The film 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:25.800 examines your whole life up to the current day, from 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:30.760 the beginning, through your diaries through home videos. It's quite 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:36.320 extraordinary the amount of material that exists and that has 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:39.880 been documented, and it really it's very moving to watch. 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:42.880 And there's one journal entry when you were I think 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:46.040 you were about thirteen, and you say, I think of 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:49.120 myself hardly a spec Then I see there is no 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:52.600 use for this small dot to spend its entire life 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:56.120 doing things for itself. It might as well spend its 0:06:56.120 --> 0:07:01.120 time making the less fortunate specs enjoy themselves. Where did 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:04.679 you develop that? Where did that come from? At thirteen? 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:09.320 You know, probably well it had to have come from 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:12.520 whatever in my life had been so far. And my 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:17.600 family at that point weren't officially Quakers but pretty much 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:20.400 as close to. No, actually they actually were. And I'd 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:23.840 been subjected to quicker meeting, which kids are not crazy about. 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:26.240 You should have to sit there and be quiet, but 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:30.240 it does affect you anyway. No, And I think going 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:32.440 to bag Dad, which is in there a little bit, 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:37.440 and seeing the poverty and people who had absolutely nothing, 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:41.600 sick and all of that. People respond in different ways. 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:45.280 I mean, my sister will all respond slightly differently, but 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:51.040 whatever my makeup is, it was devastating to me. And 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:54.920 I remember one day I was on a train and 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:58.440 I couldn't have been more than ten or twelve, and 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:02.880 in my mind I saw train going parallel to us. 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:06.240 I mean it wasn't for real, but I saw and 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:11.480 I saw a little girl basically another little me, and 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:14.560 I was thinking I didn't want anybody to hurt that 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:18.000 little girl, that if she didn't want to be hurt, 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:20.200 then I didn't want, you know. I looked at her 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.320 and thought, oh, this represents kids, and none of us 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:26.560 wants to be hurt. And we you know, we all 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:28.960 want to be loved. And you know, I would have 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:33.320 these little epiphanies when I was pretty young. They saved 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:34.839 my life also, but. 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:38.880 They're also there. It's you taking care of that little 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:42.280 girl in you. Somewhere in there, you knew you wanted 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:46.520 to feel safer than life maybe made you feel or 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:51.000 was unfolding around you, maybe didn't feel as safe. 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:54.680 Self care wasn't a word back then, but yeah, I 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:56.920 mean that's must have been what the whole thing was about. 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:00.400 I just was so surprised that the degree that you 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:06.959 suffered from panic attacks and depression and dissociation. Do you 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:08.920 remember when that started? 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:13.400 Yeah, I mean I was fragile as a little girl, 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:15.200 and I didn't realize it. You know, we didn't have 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:18.400 any words for panic attacks back then. It's just seeing 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:20.959 you're crazy people, and the crazy person went to see 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:24.520 a psychiatrist. It was really not something anybody talked about. 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:28.520 So but early on, yeah, I was. You know, my 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:32.079 mom says something about we you know, she but something's 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:34.480 bothering her and we don't know what that is, and 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:37.720 you know, and it confounded my lovely mom who wanted 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:40.440 to take care of her daughter and didn't know quite 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:42.880 how to deal with it all. So, yeah, I went 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:46.319 through a life of it until I hit fifty and 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:47.520 started dealing with it. 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:50.840 Said you said it one moment, you said I was 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:54.400 just too crazy at the time, and that is that. 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:58.280 I don't think you were crazy at all. I think 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:01.839 you were coping. I think were you know, I used 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.960 to carl into the sink and cry and spurts and 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:07.120 then get up and have to memorize lines. And you 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:10.240 know that's not that's not crazy. I mean you, how 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:10.880 did you like? 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:11.719 It? 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:14.280 Broke my heart when I heard you call yourself crazy, 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:18.120 because I I, that's a trigger for me, because it 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:21.920 is you are coping, you're sensitive, you're an artist, you're 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:24.760 a little kid. You're traveling all around in quite a 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:28.440 bohemian way of life. Was music a tough form of 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:30.680 escape or yeah? That help? 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:34.160 I mean since music did both because I was I 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:37.000 would have crippling stage fright, but I'd go out there, 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:39.480 and I know that that gave me. I mean, I 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:42.320 guess in the film it says when I really started 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:45.920 getting that recognition, I went from thinking of myself as 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:49.360 a skinny, dumb Mexican. Literally, that's how I saw myself 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:52.800 as a well the madonna. That's a good why not 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:56.520 off through that? But I began developing, you know, some self, 0:10:56.920 --> 0:10:59.679 some self worse, and I was proud. I loved my 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:02.800 I can always consider it a gift, so I can 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:05.520 talk about it. However, I like my job has been 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:10.040 maintenance and delivery since I was fifteen. Yeah, so it 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:12.040 gave me me. 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:23.680 You were such an active participant in the seminal moments 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:27.800 in our history, whether it's the March on Washington, or 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:32.439 helping into great schools, or Woodstock or the list just continues, 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:38.440 Vietnam War protesting. Do you think that your motivation for 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:42.720 that stemmed from anything in particular. 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:47.839 I think that there was great sadness that I didn't 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:51.680 know about when I was little, and I remember, you know, 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:55.200 the interviewers would say I was a twenty one or something. 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:58.840 Why are seeing all those sad songs. I don't know 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:01.600 why were you saying we shall overcome with me please, 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:10.840 that there was a diet. You know there was a 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:14.240 depth of sorrow in me, and that was you asked 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:16.480 it earlier. That was one way to deal with it, 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:19.439 with singing those songs that were expressing something I didn't 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:20.800 really know about yet. 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:26.920 Well, I encourage everybody to see this documentary because of 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:31.680 the honesty and because of hearing your voice, and hearing 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:36.040 your voice at different stages, even when you're taping messages 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:38.800 to your parents and you're on the train and you're 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:42.160 talking about the sunrise or the mountains or whatever it is, 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:47.320 you really do get an understanding of your psyche to 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:52.640 a certain extent, you and your sweetness juxtaposed with your strength. 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:57.840 The juxtaposition of both of those things all the time 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.720 really does come through in the documentary. And I think 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:03.600 people will feel that I. 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:05.360 Was just going to say, I think we're allowing them 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:09.800 to feel in some way, as I'm not telling people 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:14.080 what to feel. What we've discovered that this is unlocked things. 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:17.560 For many people come up and say exactly that, whether 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:19.960 it was communicating with their family or whether it was 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:24.520 trauma childhood trauma, et cetera. I didn't this is icing 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:26.240 on the cake for me. It wasn't. I didn't go 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:28.880 out to make a film and make everybody else feel better. 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:34.360 But it's given. You know, it's open doors for people, 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:35.360 which is wonderful. 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:40.120 The documentary really does dive deeply into your mental health 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:46.000 and discovering at what at such a young age, how 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:49.480 you are grappling with that, and discovers that abuse was 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:52.640 part of the family narrative. We hear tapes in therapy 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:55.719 and we see you examine the roots of your anxiety. 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:59.520 I feel like you've sat with this for so many years. 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:05.880 But the willingness to be to examine it with regards 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:12.200 to how you can heal I think as generous. I don't. 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:15.079 I don't think maybe you set out to make other 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:18.360 people happy, But I do think sharing experiences that are 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:24.680 less than perfect are important. Yes, But it does. I 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:27.560 think you examine your memories. 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:31.280 Yeah, it does, and I that was the healing journey. No. 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:34.240 I think everybody ought to see a therapist at some 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:37.840 point because we're all we all get so lost and 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:40.480 we go turn to friends and they're trying to please us, 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:43.880 and or turn to a friend who just pisses us off. 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:46.240 But if you can go somewhere where you're going to 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.000 get a straight answer or you're going to find your 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:53.880 own straight answer, I think it's really important. And just 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:59.160 just to make myself crazier then you say, I'm not, 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:02.280 I do that my way of talking about I talk 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:06.680 to trees. Now. I remember when Charlie McClain talked about, 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:08.680 you know, talking to trees. I thought, oh man, what 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:13.040 a fruitcake, you know, And I come completely around the 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:15.440 other way. They're a big part of my life that 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:18.680 I go to. There's one special one and I just 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:21.960 take my problems there. And if you speak to a 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:27.320 tree and listen very carefully, you are I get answers. 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:30.960 Well that's that's great. I mean I've been going to 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:35.160 the same therapist for almost thirty five or maybe a 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:37.600 little bit over almost thirty eight years, and I got very, 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:42.440 very lucky. And you know, hearing your own voice, hearing 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:48.040 your own belief and feelings about things, is a huge gift. 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:53.600 The show is called now What because it's about pivotal 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:58.840 moments in our lives that, really, looking back, good or bad, 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:02.120 they were you know something in your life that was 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:08.080 specially specially formative. If you were to look back, are 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:09.720 there any that come to mind? 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:15.160 What comes to my mind first is the goodness that 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:19.560 I got from my parents that comes before worrying about 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:25.480 the problems. Was that I have to have survived partly 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:29.640 because they loved me and I love them. And the 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:33.520 importance of the Quakerism, I mean Quakerism. You really learned 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:35.960 that human life is more important than the nation state. 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:40.520 So here we are the nation states pile up, you know, 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:44.480 one after another, and kids go on dying for that. 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:47.600 So at a very early age, I was thinking about 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:51.440 those things and for that I'm grateful. In the in 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:54.400 the movie, my older sisters has that globe and she's 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:58.080 pointing to it the place sort of symbolizing all the 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:01.040 places that we've been, and she said, Pops wanted to 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:04.240 travel around meet different people to show us that we're 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:08.000 sort of we're all the same basically, you know. And 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.240 that's probably where that speck came from, that little speck 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:15.800 of a person that my parents both must have helped 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:16.520 me form. 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:21.040 That was there a person that you came into contact with. 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:24.000 I mean, you've known so many icons like Martin Luther 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:27.080 King Jr. And James Baldwin and Patti Smith, who is 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:31.399 a I love her, Bob Dylan, Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:35.199 gave me my first computer, katies me too. Any is 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:36.720 there anybody? Yeah? 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:37.320 I love that. 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:41.800 Was there anybody in particular that made an impression on you? 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:45.359 Oh? There have been people, No, I mean the first 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:51.000 ones that come to mind are Hallville, who was became 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:54.240 the president of Czech Republic and been a dissident. I 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:57.240 always go for these dissidents because they've paid the price, 0:17:57.600 --> 0:17:59.359 taken the risk and paid the price, and I just 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:03.280 admire so much. It's what we don't have, broke, we 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:06.000 don't have. I mean, we have a lot of people 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:10.160 doing a lot of good things, and it's really difficult 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:14.360 in this political atmosphere which is all about bullying, you know, 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:19.200 and hatred and fear and this people there are people 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:22.160 who are doing good things and I don't know where 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:27.840 this rambling I'm doing started. But social change, really serious, 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:31.399 social change, meaningful, can't happen until people are willing to 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:36.080 take a risk. And we need to be more tuned 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:39.280 into that and hopefully more willing to step out of 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:41.120 our comfort zone. 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:44.480 And not letting fear, not letting fear, you know, really 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:47.000 guide us as much as it wants to do. 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:56.000 Yeah, yeah, I think I think courage is contagious, and 0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:59.720 courage is not that you're fearless, but it is that 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:03.080 you're afraid and you do it anyway. So most of us, 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:07.880 to be courageous means to face the demons, whether they're 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:11.760 personal and internal or whether it is this sick world 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:12.480 we're living in. 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:15.600 But I mean I also think you like people have 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:19.280 said things I've done, written about are courageous, and I've 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:21.720 never thought about it as courageous. I just thought about 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:27.440 it as necessity because very rarely, I think, does one 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:32.560 really feel courageous unless something is simple, and then that's 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:34.959 not really courage. But you took risks. I mean, are 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:37.720 there moments that from your youth and your career that 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:39.679 you still can't believe that you experience? 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:43.919 Yeah? There are, and I think it's a blessing. I 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:47.600 think denial is our friend because as I'm walking through 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:51.359 those threetes, who great Mississippi, I mean you're either in 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:55.399 denial or dumb to do that, because you're going to 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:59.760 get hurt. No, I mean denial about say climate change. 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:02.639 If we didn't stay in denial, maybe ninety percent of 0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:04.879 the day, it wouldn't be worth living. 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:18.200 You talk about being the right voice at the right time, 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:23.280 and I'm so moved by the sound of your voice now. 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:31.000 It resonates differently, but there's something about the richness of 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:36.520 your voice now. Albeit the younger sound was extraordinary and 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:40.479 unique and there was a clarity and a timbre to it, 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:46.119 But hearing your voice now is extremely moving. Do you 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:50.800 think that there's any metaphor in that psychologically with how 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:53.639 far you've come and of doing all the work. 0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:56.520 Well, I was busy not liking my voice for the 0:20:56.560 --> 0:20:59.920 last number of years, and it's because I was trying 0:20:59.920 --> 0:21:02.880 to make it in something it can't be anymore. And 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:05.480 the more I accept it. I mean, I don't sing much, 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:08.560 but people have asked me recently to do a couple 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:11.560 of things. I mean, I took the guitar off the wall, 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:14.600 which is where it's lived since I quit touring, and 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:16.879 started to see whether I could my fingers are going 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:19.640 to stay spaghetti, or whether the muscle memory would come back. 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:24.560 It came back enough, and I actually when I quit 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:27.280 trying to make notes that I couldn't make. That's where 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:29.840 all the tension was coming from and that was making 0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:32.520 it not fun. And I would say, although I don't 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:36.800 spend much time at it, I've found spots where I'm 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:40.800 really happy with the sound of the voice and accepting 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:46.439 that sort of like accepting wrinkles. For me, it just is. 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:47.560 It is what it is. 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:49.879 But there's no botox for the vocal cords. 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:51.240 That's correct. 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:57.719 Yeah, But I think anytime we try to compare ourselves 0:21:57.760 --> 0:22:01.800 to something that was, I think we come up short. 0:22:02.160 --> 0:22:06.000 I hope you found joy again in your voice, because 0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:11.240 so many of us have and do. But looking back 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:14.520 at your songs and your activism, did you do it 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:18.480 for the greater good or was there a part of 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:23.280 you that just was being defiant or self destructive? 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:27.800 I don't think self destructive. I think the positive part 0:22:27.840 --> 0:22:30.640 of it is that I am proud of every one 0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:34.679 of those challenges that came along and I did. I 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:37.239 don't think I went off on the wrong track at 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:40.239 any point. I think then the film alludes to it. 0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:43.520 I was addicted to it, which show, you know, whatever 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:47.000 made it impossible to me to be really present with 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:50.879 my son. Something in there was so difficult for me 0:22:50.920 --> 0:22:53.320 that I would take off you know, and I would 0:22:53.400 --> 0:22:58.000 do something valuable and something good, but I could have 0:22:58.000 --> 0:22:58.520 stayed home. 0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:03.480 When you say that you your son, you were not present, 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:06.679 do you mean that just because of your schedule or 0:23:06.720 --> 0:23:10.919 do you mean that emotionally both both. 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:15.280 I mean the schedule physically took me away, but being 0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:19.360 there but not really being present for him, I kind 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:21.880 of knew. I mean, I know that, and I knew 0:23:21.920 --> 0:23:24.719 it already, but to hear more from him about what 0:23:24.760 --> 0:23:28.639 that actually felt like, and you know, to hear you know, 0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:31.200 my mom surrounded me with really good people, but there's 0:23:31.240 --> 0:23:34.800 nothing can really take the place of a parent. So 0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:37.120 you know, I had a lot of gut punches while 0:23:37.160 --> 0:23:40.080 I was watching and the healthy ones because I learned 0:23:40.080 --> 0:23:40.560 from them. 0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:43.760 And to see your son, you and your son on 0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:47.240 tour for the quote unquote, I don't want to admit it. 0:23:47.280 --> 0:23:48.959 I will not I will not be I will not 0:23:48.960 --> 0:23:51.800 be accepting the farewell tour as a farewell tour. But 0:23:52.040 --> 0:23:57.240 that's not for me to decide. Seeing you know, you're 0:23:57.280 --> 0:23:59.679 his only mom, you know, and seeing the two of 0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:02.960 you to other and seeing you two performed together, there's 0:24:03.000 --> 0:24:06.840 a huge amount of healing in that, and you can 0:24:06.920 --> 0:24:09.720 feel it and I don't think it's ever too late 0:24:10.080 --> 0:24:14.080 in any way. We all have guilt. For I have 0:24:14.160 --> 0:24:17.639 a huge amount of guilt for being so kidnapped by 0:24:17.720 --> 0:24:21.560 postpartum depression with my first daughter. And you know and 0:24:21.640 --> 0:24:26.800 hold that, and I think, what you it's it's a 0:24:26.960 --> 0:24:29.480 very it's a beautiful thing anyway to see you both 0:24:29.600 --> 0:24:33.679 on stage together, and so I'm glad for that. 0:24:34.119 --> 0:24:36.960 When people ask me what is it I'm most proud 0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:40.320 of in my life, it really isn't the accolades and 0:24:40.359 --> 0:24:44.280