1 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: On April twenty fifth, nineteen ninety, Robert McLendon saw his 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: biological daughter for the first time in five years, just 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:12,879 Speaker 1: walking down the street. They stopped and spoke. Later on 4 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: that same day, the ten year old girl was allegedly abducted, blindfolded, 5 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: driven to an abandoned house, and raped. According to the victim, 6 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: she was later able to escape from the assailant's car 7 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: when he had stopped at a convenience store. The following day, 8 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: the victim's mother noticed that she was acting and walking strangely. 9 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: When asked, the victim alleged that her father, Robert McClendon, 10 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,599 Speaker 1: had attacked her. She was taken to the hospital where 11 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: a rape kit was performed. Seamen was not detected, so 12 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,599 Speaker 1: for now no DNA testing was done, but her underwear 13 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: would later become a key piece of evidence. According to 14 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,840 Speaker 1: a polygraph examiner, the final test of five that were 15 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: done was ruled to be inconclusive and could have been 16 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: quote a deliberate attempt at deception. With this dubious result 17 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: and the testimony of the ten year old victim, Robert 18 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: was ultimately confined. Nearly two decades passed while Roberts are 19 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 1: fifteen to life for the kidnapping and rape of his 20 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: biological daughter, before advances in DNA testing made it possible 21 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: to develop a mail profile from the victims underwear, the 22 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: Ohio Innocence Project, the Columbus Dispatch, and eventually the prosecutor's 23 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: office worked diligently to ascertain the truth. This is wrongful conviction. 24 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: Welcome back to wrongful Conviction this episode. There's a lot 25 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:38,479 Speaker 1: of things in this case that are typical the state 26 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: that had happened in Ohio, the crime that was committed. 27 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: But there's a twist in this case. It's you're just 28 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: going to be scratching your head like I am, because 29 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: it's crazy. And to tell this story, we have Jennifer 30 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: Berger on and name you'll recognize. She is a professor 31 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: of clinical law and the director of operations at the 32 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: Ohiolo discens Project. And actually, this, Jennifer, this was your 33 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: first case, right, it sure was, so I'm sure this 34 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: is going to be exciting for you, and of course 35 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:14,959 Speaker 1: the man himself who lived through this nightmare, Robert McClendon. Robert, 36 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: I had the pleasure of meeting you, yes recently, and listen, 37 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: I'm sorry for what you went through. But I'm so 38 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: glad that you're here to share your story. 39 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 2: Thank you, and I'm really glad to be here. 40 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 1: So before we even get into the actual crime itself, 41 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: which is a horrific crime. Yes, sir, what was your 42 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: life like growing up? 43 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 3: Well, I want to say it was a normal life. 44 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 3: I didn't have a traditional mom. I come from a 45 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 3: family of alcoholic drug apies, but my mom tried the 46 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 3: best so she could raising three boys. We're kind of 47 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,799 Speaker 3: like stairstap kids, and me and my mother we had 48 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 3: a lot of disagreements because I've never smoked rick or 49 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 3: these drugs, and because I will speak up to my 50 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,679 Speaker 3: mom and asked her, why don't you cook like other 51 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 3: moms and things like that, So my mother would get 52 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 3: on me and she would whoop me in. So I 53 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 3: went on the left and I was stayed with my 54 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 3: live with my aunt Martha, who basically raised me from 55 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:13,079 Speaker 3: a teenager. 56 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 2: All the way up. But I was very good at school, 57 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 2: made good grades in school. 58 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: So you still managed to perform well in school despite 59 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: everything else. And then I understand you had three daughters 60 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: by three different mothers. Not too long after high school. 61 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: There was Robin Nicole and then your youngest ended up 62 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: being the victim in this case. But before we get 63 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 1: into what happened to her, can you talk a little 64 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 1: bit about your kids. 65 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was young and I was there Robin and 66 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 3: the cold Life. I didn't really get to know the 67 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 3: victim in this case because me and her mom it 68 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 3: broke up and I hadn't seen her since she was 69 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 3: five years old up until the time, and I saw 70 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 3: her when she was ten years old. The mom kept 71 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 3: me away from her, and that's just how it was. 72 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: But there was a time before the mother ever became pregnant, 73 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: before your relationship had gone south. Right. 74 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, I had my own apartment, but I was found 75 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 3: myself staying over there a lot with her, and she 76 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 3: had two kids, two boys, and we were seeing each 77 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 3: other and she, you know, she became pregnant. 78 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: And at some point during that pregnancy, she decided that 79 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: she didn't want you in your daughter's life. And at 80 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: that time, you were already helping to support your other 81 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: two daughters while working for the Columbus Parks in a 82 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: recreation department. 83 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, City of Columbus, But. 84 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: You became a known entity the police with your side hustle, right, 85 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: selling drugs to supplement your income. No judgment here. 86 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 3: Back then, that's what you did because the money was 87 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 3: so good, good and fast, and I felt that because 88 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 3: I wasn't using drugs, I was all in and I 89 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 3: did very very well until I got caught. I was 90 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 3: put on probation. I think the judge saw that I 91 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 3: was not a bad person, but when he gave me 92 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 3: that probation, there were certain people back then on the 93 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 3: police department in the eighties that did not like me 94 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 3: and like other guys that did what I did, and 95 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 3: they made it very difficult for me and other guys. 96 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 1: And there was one officer in particular who played a 97 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: pivotal role in your case. 98 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 3: Officer Nardella, that was a detective. He was what you 99 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 3: call a dirty cop. He would arrest guys and take 100 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 3: their money in their drugs, plant drugs, very corrupt. 101 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: And he took a very special interest in you, eventually 102 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: arresting you while you were on probation, alleging that he 103 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 1: had found drugs in your car. And this was in 104 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: the lead up to your trial for the crime that 105 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 1: we're here to discuss today. 106 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 3: But I also want to make a point out that 107 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 3: once I was put on probation, I did not indulge 108 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 3: in selling drugs anymore. 109 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 1: I think that's important, but it wasn't important to Nardella though, 110 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: as we so often see, a prior connection to drug 111 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: deal and can make someone a target for incarceration by 112 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: any means necessary, even though that past does not make 113 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: you in any way guilty of another crime like murder 114 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: or in this case, a rape, and especially the rape 115 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: of your own daughter. So let's get to the day 116 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: of the incident itself. Robert, after the birth of your 117 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 1: youngest biological daughter, you had only seen her twice, once 118 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: at age five, and then curiously, you saw her earlier 119 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: in the day that this horrendous rape occurred, and it 120 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: was April twenty fifth, nineteen ninety. Is that accurate? 121 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 2: That it is accurate? 122 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 3: I was going down Hudson Street, going over to a 123 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 3: lady friend's house, and this young girl came up to 124 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 3: me and said, are you Robert. I think you're my daddy, 125 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 3: she says. She remembered me from the pictures of her 126 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 3: mother had on her metal piece. So I said, well, 127 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 3: tell your mama, said hi, and I asked her how 128 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 3: she was doing in school. She said good, and I said, well, 129 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 3: keep doing good. In school and till your mama said hi. 130 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 3: Two days later, my attorney called me and told me 131 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 3: I needed to turn myself in because I was accused 132 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 3: of raping a child. 133 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: And we don't know the exact machinations behind you being 134 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 1: accused of this rape. Perhaps because you had seen her, 135 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 1: maybe there were resentments, maybe her mother had something to 136 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 1: do with the blame being placed, and you were really 137 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: not sure. But we do know for a fact it 138 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: was not you. I said it again, it was not you. 139 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: And as we go along here, perhaps motivations become more clear. Now, 140 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: make no mistake, this little girl absolutely did suffer a 141 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: horrible sexual assault that day. According to a statement, It 142 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: wasn't until the next day, though, that her mother confronted 143 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: her about how she was acting or walking strangely, and 144 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: at that point she told her mother that her biological father, you, Robert, 145 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: had abducted her from her backyard in Columbus, Ohio, tied 146 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: a sock over her eyes, and drove her off to 147 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: some abandoned house somewhere where you allegedly raped her on 148 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: a couch inside the house, ejaculated on her, and then 149 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: drove to a convenience store and she was able to 150 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: escape while you were allegedly inside this store. Now, the 151 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: victim was taken to a hospital and a rape kit 152 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: was performed and no seamen was identified on her underwear 153 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: or on vaginal swamps, so no DNA testing was done 154 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: as a result. But remember this is nineteen ninety and 155 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: DNA testing approved over time, and this evidence became irrelevant 156 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: again later. However, back in nineteen ninety, when asked if 157 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: she could identify the attacker, the victim said, quote, I 158 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: think it was my dad, but I may be wrong 159 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: because my eyes were covered. So at that point, things 160 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: were not looking good for Robert. 161 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 4: Well, yes, I mean when we first looked at this case, 162 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 4: it was very perplexing. I mean, Robert has been very 163 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 4: steadfast in his innocence from day one, and you know, 164 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 4: I wanted to believe what he was saying, but I 165 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 4: was also kind of perplexed by why would this young 166 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 4: girl make something up against her own father. It could 167 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 4: have been something manufactured in her own head, maybe completely innocently, 168 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 4: or it could have been something that was planted in 169 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 4: her head by someone from her family. I don't know. 170 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: Then things take another tragic turn, right, which is that 171 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: you Robert were arrested and charged with kidnapping and rape 172 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: of this child. Yes, Robert, take us back to that 173 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: awful day when you were arrested, did falsely accused and 174 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: in fact charged with this horrendous crime. 175 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 3: My attorney didn't believe it. I thought it was some 176 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 3: type of mistake. I was given a very low bond 177 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 3: of one thousand dollars and was released. 178 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: Wait, a thousand dollars bond. That's like what they give 179 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: somebody for like riding their bike on the sidewalk. I mean, 180 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: this seems really way off for this horrible crime that 181 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 1: we're discussing here. But we're going to come back to 182 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,199 Speaker 1: that now. Let's just say for now that it doesn't 183 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: seem like your attorney was the only one who didn't 184 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: believe these allegations. 185 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 3: This judge, Judge Johnson, what's the same judge that put 186 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 3: me on probation for aggravated trafficking during the time when 187 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 3: they were a war on drugs. 188 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 2: The police apartment would hate it by goods. 189 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: Okay, okay. So now you're out awaiting trial and some 190 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: people in the police department feel some kind of way 191 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: about that, and that's when Nardella pulled you over. 192 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 3: I had a beautiful red Mercedes that was customized, and 193 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 3: there's a code. 194 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 2: When you are dealing drugs or selling. 195 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 3: Drugs, you never ever do it. When you're driving your 196 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 3: prize car, you don't carry, you don't do anything wrong. 197 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 3: Anybody's selling drugs. When you're driving your show car, you're 198 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,839 Speaker 3: not working. There's never nothing wrong. There's no drugs, there's 199 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 3: no illegal activities, no guns or anything in these cars. 200 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: Well, that makes sense as a practical matter, because in theory, 201 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: they could take the car. 202 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, yeah, he arrested me and put drugs 203 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 3: in my car because I was on probation, and he 204 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 3: knew that I would go to jail and not be 205 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 3: able to get out because I was on probation. 206 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,839 Speaker 1: So now you're locked up for over a year awaiting trial, 207 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: unable to fight the case from the outside, ineligible for bail, 208 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: and now I need to go back to how bail 209 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: was originally said at one thousand dollars. I mean, if 210 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: they actually believed you to be the kind of sick 211 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,559 Speaker 1: bastard that would rape your own ten year old daughter, 212 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: that just it doesn't add up. It makes no sense. 213 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree, What was. 214 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,559 Speaker 3: The prosecutor did not want to take this case because 215 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,079 Speaker 3: he didn't think he could win. That's why he opted 216 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 3: for me to take a polygraph test, and if I 217 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 3: passed a polygraph test, would not even go to trial, Sir. 218 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,439 Speaker 1: And the polygraph test, we know that they're not accurate. 219 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: Even if the examiner is a true expert at reading 220 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: the results, there's still only approximately seventy percent accurate. So 221 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 1: it's a little better than guessing right. 222 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 3: My attorney gave me a pre polygraph test. I passed 223 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 3: it with flying colors. They gave me four polygraph tests. 224 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 3: We now know that the guy that did the polygraph 225 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 3: test was corrupt. They were looking for a failed result 226 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,199 Speaker 3: and they got what I think was close to it 227 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 3: when it came back inconclusive. 228 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: So a State Highway Patrol examiner found, which is again subjective, 229 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: that your answers quote unquote, could be a deliberate attempt 230 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: at deception. That could apply to any polygraph test. You 231 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: could literally be you could have the best polygraph test 232 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: in the history of the world. Right they equivalent of 233 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,199 Speaker 1: getting eight hundreds on your SATs. You could nail it right, 234 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 1: and they could still go that it could be in them. 235 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe I don't know, it could be 236 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: something looked like you might have tried to say. I mean, 237 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: that's a ridiculous I have to laugh because if I don't, 238 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to cry or I'm going to break something. 239 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: You know, yes, sir, oh, okay. So you've got this 240 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: polygraphic examiner saying that this could be a deliberate attempt 241 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: at deception, which could be something a corrupt polygraphic examiner 242 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: would testify to. And then you've got the victim saying 243 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 1: that it was you and you decided to go for 244 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: a bench trial. 245 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 4: They chose to go with a bench trial because of 246 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 4: the nature of this crime. It was such a horrendous crime, 247 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 4: and there was going to be testimony from a ten 248 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 4: year old girl. And I think it's very hard for 249 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,559 Speaker 4: nu juror to hear the testimony of a ten year 250 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 4: old who went through this and a quit, even if 251 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 4: it's the right thing to do. 252 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 3: My attorney said, a jury would think that if you're 253 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 3: a drug dealer, that you're a child molestor. We opted 254 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 3: for a trial with Judge Johnson because he felt that 255 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 3: Judge Johnson would follow the law. 256 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: And that seems like a very rational decision. With the 257 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: circumstances as you. 258 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 3: Described, every person knows why they were found guilty. There's 259 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 3: two causes of why I was found guilty, the testimony 260 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,599 Speaker 3: of the child and the inconclusive results of the polygraph 261 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 3: test that I believe the prosecutor sold to the judge 262 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:40,559 Speaker 3: more powerful than what my attorney did. If my attorney 263 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 3: dropped the ball anytime it was with he did not 264 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 3: convince the judge that inconclusive results of the polygraph test 265 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 3: means you did not feel it and you did not 266 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 3: pass it. 267 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, they gave it to you four times. The probably 268 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,479 Speaker 1: would have given it to you forty times. And eventually, 269 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: just because of that, you know, I mean, because they 270 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: were you know, if you keept passing that, we're going 271 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: to keep doing it. And because we know how inaccurate 272 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: these things are. Eventually the law of averages says you're 273 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: going to either fail one or be inconclusive or whatever 274 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 1: it is. So yeah, I mean this is important because 275 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: as anyone in our audience could end up on a 276 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: jury at a criminal trial, please be aware that these things, 277 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: well he's not even allowed to be introduced as evidence. 278 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: That's how that's how inaccurate these things are they're not 279 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: even allowed to be introduced as evidence, right. But it's 280 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: not like your lawyer did nothing. I mean, he did 281 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: present alibi witnesses. I mean, there was a cable guy 282 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: who would have no agenda. 283 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 4: I mean. 284 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: And then it was your friend Laverne, who you had 285 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: been with all that day, and I understand that they 286 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: were very rough with her. But like you said, your 287 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: lawyer didn't do enough to combat the bogus polygraph evidence. 288 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: And of course, what can be said to combat the 289 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: tearful words of a ten year old victim. 290 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 3: There's nothing more powerful than a beautiful child on stand 291 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 3: that points a finger at you and say that you 292 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 3: did something. I had family members in the audience, and 293 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 3: they told me that we are your family, we love you. 294 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 3: But if we did not know you, and the way 295 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 3: that girl pointed their finger at you and said you 296 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 3: did it, we would believe it. 297 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: Take us back to that moment, that awful, awful moment 298 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: when the judge declared you incorrectly declared you guilty of 299 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: this rape and kidnapping and sentence you to fifteen years 300 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: of life in prison. 301 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 3: I remember Judge Johnson even to this day. He said, 302 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 3: the testimony of the child was powerful. 303 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 2: I believe that you're guilty. 304 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 3: And I shook my head and I said, Judge Johnson, 305 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 3: I did not do this. He shook his head and 306 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 3: he looked down and he said, Son, I think you're guilty. 307 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 2: Never forget it. 308 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 3: When I walked into that sale, it was like I 309 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 3: was being closed out of the whole world, Like the 310 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 3: whole world was over. 311 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 2: No. 312 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 3: Prison is a nice place. I think you have to 313 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 3: be adaptable to it. I adapted to it. I helped 314 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 3: a young guys, gang beggars get their GEDs. I'm very 315 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 3: proud of that. And I did most of my time 316 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 3: at ROSS. In the last year I was transferred to Chillicoty. 317 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: And Jennifer, how did Roberts case become the first case 318 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: that you ever worked on and how did you end 319 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: up prevailing against all odds? 320 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 4: Yeah. So I came here almost fifteen years ago, and 321 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 4: there was a project underway already that the High Winnescence 322 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 4: Project was doing with the Columbus Dispatch newspaper, and the 323 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 4: reporters had realized that prisoners across the state of Ohio 324 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 4: had been asking for post conviction DNA testing in Ohio 325 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 4: and the vast, vast majority of times they asked for testing, 326 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 4: it was just either summarily denied or in a lot 327 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 4: of cases, the judges never even ruled on the applications. 328 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 4: So they teamed up with us and reviewed the several 329 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 4: hundred cases where individuals had asked for post conviction DNA 330 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 4: testing and had been denied or nothing had happened, and 331 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 4: they ended up choosing thirty cases, and Roberts was one 332 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 4: of those. There was a whole series of articles in 333 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 4: the Columbus Dispatch that came out in two thousand and 334 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 4: eight called test of Convictions. So the Ohio Innocence Project 335 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 4: and the Ohio Public Defender did a few of the 336 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,959 Speaker 4: thirty cases. So I had a handful of those, and 337 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 4: Roberts was one of them. We filed for DNA testing 338 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:48,160 Speaker 4: in I think February of two thousand and eight, and 339 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 4: much to my surprise, the Franklin County Prosecutor's office actually 340 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 4: agreed to do the testing, which, based on the responses 341 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 4: we were getting from others across the state, was shocking. 342 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 4: I always theorized that at the time they did it 343 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 4: because they were so convinced he was guilty that it 344 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 4: would just come back and prove it and that would 345 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 4: be fine, which is fine with me because then it 346 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,719 Speaker 4: would show the system worked. I didn't care why they 347 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 4: were deciding to agree. I was just glad they were, 348 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,479 Speaker 4: but that was my theory. So as a result of that, 349 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 4: we ended up entering in agreed order to have the 350 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 4: items tested. The rape kit was searched for, but that 351 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 4: was long since gone. But fortunately they had the victims 352 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 4: underwear still in storage at the prosecutor's office. 353 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 3: When I fouled for DNA testing three times, they said 354 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 3: the underwear was missing or they couldn't find them. But 355 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 3: when the Ohio Innocent Project and the Columbus Patch got involved, 356 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 3: voila the underwear. 357 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: That reminds me of the Allen Newton case in New York, 358 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: where for over twenty years they were denying the existence 359 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: of the evidence. They said it had been lost, and 360 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 1: when the Innocence Project got involved, they found it in 361 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: exactly the place where it was supposed to be and 362 00:18:57,680 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: a ile with his name on it. And it's like 363 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, like this sounds like some banana Republic, third 364 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: world country type of stuff. And this was New York City. 365 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: So it's a miracle. I mean, you know that there 366 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 1: was evidence left to test, and it's a travesty that 367 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,439 Speaker 1: there isn't a national standard for the preservation of this 368 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 1: type of evidence that literally turns out to be the 369 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 1: difference between dying in prison, quite possibly, and living life. 370 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, that was one of the unfortunate discoveries from thirty cases. 371 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 4: There were several where I mean, I can think of 372 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 4: one person in particular where I do believe they're innocent, 373 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 4: but all of the evidence was gone. 374 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: And who's that This. 375 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 2: Was for Marion Reynolds, Yes, someone I know. 376 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 4: Yeah, his wasn't the only case, but yeah, there was 377 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 4: just a complete lack of any sort of uniform standards 378 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 4: anywhere across the state. Fortunately, due to legislation that came 379 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 4: into effect. I believe in twenty ten that's changed in 380 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 4: Ohio by statute, although unfortunately I don't think all of 381 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 4: the law enforcement agencies are following it at this point, 382 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 4: but theoretically they should be now maintaining evidence in a 383 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 4: more uniform way. But fortunately for Robert, at least they 384 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 4: had the underwear. It had been looked at way back 385 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 4: at the time of trial, and they had determined that 386 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 4: there wasn't any ceman or sperm on it, which is 387 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 4: partially why I thought they figured either they weren't going 388 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 4: to get any results, or if they did, it would 389 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 4: come back and show Robert. But in any case, they agreed, 390 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 4: which was great, and we wanted to do YSTR testing 391 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 4: on it because at this time that was the best 392 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 4: way to find any male DNA, since we figured most 393 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,200 Speaker 4: of the DNA would be from the victim who was female. 394 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 4: And ultimately they agreed to that, so we ended up 395 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 4: sending it to private lab here in Fairfield that is 396 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 4: certified by the state of Ohio and DDC, the private company, 397 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 4: in cooperation with the Columbus Dispatch, had agreed to do 398 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 4: the testing in all of these cases, all thirty of 399 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 4: them for free, and Robert's happened to be the first one. 400 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: The results come back, and sure enough it proves that 401 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: what Robert had been saying from was true. He had 402 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,199 Speaker 1: nothing to do with this. Jennifer, what was that moment? Like, 403 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 1: you must have been ecstatic. 404 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. 405 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 4: I happened to be on vacation at the beach when 406 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 4: the results came in, and you know, I was trying 407 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 4: not to think about work, but then I get the 408 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 4: information about this and it just blew my mind. I 409 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 4: mean it was amazing. I remember we went out to 410 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 4: dinner that night. I was out with my family and 411 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 4: I was just kind of like in a daze of like, wow, 412 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 4: this this really happened and it's not him. And then 413 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 4: you know, this was the first case I had worked, 414 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,959 Speaker 4: so the first time, you know, i'd received results. So 415 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 4: then my head was spending with Okay, now what do 416 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 4: we do? Of course, you know Robert didn't know. 417 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,479 Speaker 1: Right, So that's the thing I'm dying to know. So 418 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: there you are at the beach, you're celebrating. You're probably 419 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 1: almost in a state of shaka like I was. I 420 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: loved my job. You're like, I can all the emotions, right, 421 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: How did you communicate this to Robert? And then I 422 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: want to get to Robert's reaction. I got to know everything. 423 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:59,360 Speaker 4: Tell me well, because the Dispatch was involved, the two reporters, 424 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 4: Jeffutt and Mike Wagner, really wanted to be there to 425 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,199 Speaker 4: document us giving the results to Robert. And I can 426 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 4: let him tell the story about meeting these two requires, 427 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 4: but he knew them and they kind of had a 428 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 4: good relationship going, so they definitely wanted to be there. 429 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 4: So they worked it out with the prison, so they 430 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 4: had a camera crew there. I mean, I felt bad 431 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 4: for Robert having not told him ahead of time, but 432 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 4: I promised the reporters I wouldn't and also obviously we 433 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 4: knew it was good news. 434 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,880 Speaker 3: They have alerted my people that the results were in, 435 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 3: but they never said anything about what the results was. 436 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 2: My people are going crazy, well, what is it? What? 437 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 3: So I'm in the hallway and the attorneys are walking 438 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 3: by and no one's looking at me at all. It 439 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 3: makes me think about you knowing the jury. The jury 440 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 3: comes in, they say, if they don't look at you, 441 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 3: you're guilty. So I'm looking at the body language. I'm 442 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 3: looking for eye contact. Okay, what Jennifer walks in. I'm 443 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 3: looking at Jennifer. She don't look at me. 444 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 2: I think. A couple of the students walk by. 445 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 3: I'm looking at them. 446 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 2: They don't look at me. 447 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 3: Now, I remember a conversation that me and Mike Wagner 448 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 3: had because he played basketball, and he said if I 449 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 3: ever got out that we was going to go to 450 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 3: the y and play basketball together. So then he walks by, 451 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 3: and I'm looking for some type of reaction from him. 452 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 3: He's looking straight on the floor, but he says, you 453 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 3: ready for that basketball game, and I just say that's 454 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 3: when I knew. 455 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 2: Otherwise what was going on. So they mustn't came back inconclusive. 456 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 2: You know, inconclusive haven't worked out too well for me. 457 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: Everyone's keeping a poker face and he spills to be 458 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 1: I guess he could have resisted. I mean, and then 459 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: I read that you said, hello, truth, I never ever 460 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: raped anyone? Is that an accurate quote? 461 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 3: The first words I said after Jennifer gave me the 462 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 3: results was hello Truth. 463 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 2: I have a card. 464 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 3: My business card is a picture of me receiving my 465 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 3: DNA results from Jennifer. 466 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 2: My favorite picture. 467 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: So seventeen almost seventeen years in prison, you were freed. 468 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,880 Speaker 1: Tell us about that day when you finally came home. 469 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 2: When I got out. 470 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 3: When I first got out, I went out and I 471 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 3: said Hello Truth and hello freedom. They had a camera 472 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 3: crew there and they asked me what I wanted to eat, 473 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 3: and of course I said wings and the not old pizza. 474 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 3: They brought stacks of pizza and stacks of wings over 475 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 3: to my daughter's mom's house, and I was just like, 476 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 3: in a day, it's still surreal. So many people are 477 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 3: talking to you and everything, and you just realized you 478 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 3: just walked out of hell into heaven basically, and you're 479 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 3: in a zone where you're there, but you're not there. 480 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,439 Speaker 3: It was special being around loved ones and friends and 481 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,360 Speaker 3: people that had been there with me through the journey 482 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 3: that Ohio, an Innocent Project and the Columbus Dispatch were 483 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 3: there for hours, all the way up until nighttime. It 484 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 3: was wonderful. One of the best days of my life. 485 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: It is wonderful, and it's actually really important that we 486 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 1: not leave out the fact that for those seventeen years 487 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: of your wrongful incarceration, no one was looking for the 488 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: guy that actually did this. And we owe it to 489 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: ourselves as a society to make the system better and 490 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 1: fairer for everyone, you know, to get justice for the 491 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: victims and justice for the innocent person, and to get 492 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 1: the real perpetrator off the streets. So, Robert, did they 493 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: ever find out who the real perpetrator was in this 494 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: particular case. 495 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 2: Yes, yes. 496 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 3: Ron O'Brien the prosecutor is the county prosecutor in Columbus, Ohio, 497 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,160 Speaker 3: who has work very closely with the Innocent Project where 498 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 3: he wanted to do his own DNA tests. 499 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 2: A follow up. 500 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 3: Of course, I was going crazy Kogle for cocoaps. 501 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, this is while you were still in, before 502 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 4: you got it. 503 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 3: While I was still in because I thought there was 504 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 3: a fix in. I thought there was something going on. 505 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,439 Speaker 3: They're getting ready to undo this somehow the Ohio Instant 506 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 3: Project and told me that the science is a science. 507 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 3: Robbert's gonna come up the same. So the results come 508 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 3: back again. It was not me, but this time, sir, 509 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 3: they came back with a hit. A known suspect, the 510 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 3: seventeen year old son, had molested her at the age 511 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 3: of ten years old. They continue to have a consential 512 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 3: relationship while she was a teenager, and then continue to 513 00:26:55,040 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 3: have a consential relationship into their adult life. Ronald Ryan 514 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 3: told me when he presented the evidence to the mom, 515 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 3: she did not even seem surprised. I asked, ron can 516 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 3: we take this guy to court to prosecute him? He said, Robert, 517 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 3: we can't do it because during the consential relationship, she 518 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,479 Speaker 3: would never take the stand against Now, how wicked is that? 519 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 2: Guys. 520 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: I'm rarely at a loss for words, but I don't 521 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: have any words to say. It's going to take me 522 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 1: a minute. Sorry, I'm to apologizing to the audience. This 523 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: is the first I learned of this. Yeah, did they 524 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: not know this before the DNA proved it? Or was 525 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: this known to some people in positions of authority at 526 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: the time of your wrong for conviction. 527 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 2: I'm not sure. 528 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 3: Everything that happened to this child. I always empathized, guys. 529 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 3: I always empathized with this child because I knew and 530 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,479 Speaker 3: believed that something happened to this child, and I was 531 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 3: very empathetic as a result of that. It just was 532 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 3: not me, And I was even empathetic until we always thought. 533 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 2: It might have been a family member. 534 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 3: But I stopped being empathetic to this child when I 535 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 3: found out that they was in a relationship while I 536 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 3: was sitting in jail righting all this time, knowing that 537 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 3: I was in prison, and her mother coerced her into 538 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 3: saying all that stuff on the stand. 539 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 2: Her mother knew all along. 540 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: There's a layer of evil in that that. 541 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 3: Is really there. 542 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 2: Is her. 543 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 3: I'm glad you said that were because that's exactly how 544 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 3: I feel. 545 00:28:50,800 --> 00:29:13,479 Speaker 1: A sir. I've been hearing a lot of amazing things 546 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: that you've been engaged in on behalf of other axigneries 547 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: and the community and I would love to hear about that. 548 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 3: I've been an advocate for the Ohio interc Project since 549 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 3: I've been out doing speaking engagement schools, colleges, universities, getting 550 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 3: the word out, talking about what happened to me and 551 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 3: what happened to others. We all go to court and 552 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 3: when some of the other designeries are out to be 553 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 3: of support for their families and the other exigneries. There's 554 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 3: nothing more powerful than being there for one of your 555 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 3: own when they get out to the free world. And 556 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 3: then once they're out in the free world. 557 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 2: They need help. We all need help. 558 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 3: Some of these guys come out with issues as myself 559 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 3: PTSD and such financial problems. Me and Dean were kind 560 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 3: of like the ogs of the O High Innocent Project, 561 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 3: and you guys should talk to him. His story is 562 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 3: powerful to that lawyers can't talk about the things that 563 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 3: me and Dean can talk to to other dexigneries that 564 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 3: you well know, Me and Dean were there to talk 565 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 3: to these guys. We're on call twenty four to seven 566 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:16,959 Speaker 3: to these guys when they have problems. 567 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 2: We're real with it, you know. They tell us everything 568 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 2: they come to us. We have a lady by the 569 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 2: name of Dona Mayerson. 570 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 3: Who does a lot of work in regards to our counseling, 571 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 3: mental health and things like that. Somebody that we trust 572 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 3: who's there for us. It's just giving back. 573 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: That's a really beautiful thing. And you mentioned Dean. That's 574 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: Dean Gillespie and I remember meeting him at the Innocents 575 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: Network conference this year. I met him several times before 576 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: in the past, and it sounds like the work you're 577 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: doing just keeps the spirit of the conference, you know, 578 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: the camaraderie alive all year and just being a witness 579 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: being a part of that incredible energy. I wish I 580 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: could bottle it and share it with people and just 581 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: take a sip of it whenever I need the inspiration 582 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: because it's it's almost impossible to describe it. Anyone who's 583 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: been there knows what I'm talking about, and you're doing 584 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: that every day, So kudos to you. So I also 585 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: understand that you've been active in getting so much needed 586 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: legislation passed, which is incredible. I mean, can you fill 587 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: us in on what you've been up. 588 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 2: To House Bill seventy seven. I was there, we helped 589 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 2: do that. 590 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 3: I'm going to let Jennifer talk about the four part 591 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 3: deal or she can describe it there at the media. 592 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 4: Boy, you're putting me on the spot for the four parts. 593 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 4: But basically those the last big overhaul of the Ohio 594 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 4: DNA post Conviction Statute, and it did things like put 595 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 4: in the statute the right to have codis upload of 596 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 4: any DNA results, and it also it addressed recording of 597 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 4: interrogations and preservation of evidence. It was for the first 598 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 4: time put in state wide standards on what evidence and 599 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 4: what crimes needs to be kept and for how long, 600 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,479 Speaker 4: so that we could stop running into the issues of 601 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 4: not being able to do testing because it was gone up. 602 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 4: Oh yes, thank you, and changing the way photo lineups 603 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 4: are supposed to be done in Ohio so that it's 604 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 4: not the six packs, but is done with what they 605 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 4: called a folder method, so it's done one at a 606 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 4: time to try to decrease the amount of mistaken identity. Yes, 607 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 4: so Robert was very helpful with going around and meeting 608 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 4: with a bunch of legislators to just tell them his 609 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 4: story firsthand, and I think, you know, hearing from him 610 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 4: and others who'd been through similar situations really helped the 611 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 4: legislators understand why the legislation was important. 612 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 3: And Mark because of that legislation, Mark has me talking 613 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 3: to someone here in New York when your guys in 614 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 3: about social security because as you will know, when you're 615 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 3: in prison, you don't get to pay in social security 616 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 3: or retirement or nothing. And when you get out the 617 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 3: conversation that they give you, trust me, after you've become 618 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 3: a victim of being used by your family like I did, 619 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 3: it's just not enough. Some exigneries end up with nothing. 620 00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 3: Some exigneries end up being in financial tragedies, financial straits. 621 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 3: Is say it because we just don't have the income 622 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 3: to make it, and social Security would help out here 623 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 3: that some people. We could probably get it under PTSD 624 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 3: because all of us suffer from some forms of PTSD 625 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 3: when we get out. 626 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 2: But we need powerful people. 627 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 3: That's going to get together and put their heads and 628 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 3: their efforts together to make this happen. 629 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: You know, this idea has been floating around in the 630 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 1: Zeitgeis lately, and I feel like it's finally starting to 631 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: grow some wings. So let's work together. Let's amend the 632 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 1: thirteenth Amendment or make a new amendment to the Constitution 633 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: that closes the slavery loophole in the thirteenth Amendment, and 634 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: by the way, it's on the ballot this November twenty 635 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: twenty two in five states Louisiana, Alabama, Oregon, Tennessee, and Vermont. 636 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 1: So again, Louisiana, Alabama, Oregon, Tennessee, and Vermont. If you 637 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: live in one of those five states, you have an 638 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 1: opportunity to make your voice heard and to help abolish 639 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: slavery once and for all, and eventually we get all 640 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: fifty states. I mean, if you think it would be 641 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 1: a no brainer that there would be no slavery anywhere 642 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: regardless of your legal status, but who knows in our 643 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: current political climate, I shudder to think anyway. With all 644 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,399 Speaker 1: of that said, I want to thank both of you 645 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: for joining us here today and sharing this incredible story 646 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: and just for being. 647 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 2: Who you are and thank you for having us. Yeah, 648 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 2: thank you, Jennifer. I want to say thank you again. 649 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 2: I don't know if how many times I can. 650 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 4: I'll never get tired of saying, but you're welcome. It 651 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 4: was privileged to work with you. 652 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 2: Wow. 653 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: And of course, please support the Ohio Innocence Project. Their 654 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: work is saving lives to this very day and they 655 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: need all of our support. We'll put a link in 656 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 1: the bio, and of course that brings us to closing arguments, 657 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: where I just turn my microphone off, kick back in 658 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: my chair and listen for whatever you feel is left 659 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: to be said. So Jennifer please go first, and then 660 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,320 Speaker 1: Robert close it out for us. 661 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 4: Well, I just want to say thank you again for 662 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 4: having me on and for putting a spotlight on these 663 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 4: stories that are important and need to be shared. And 664 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 4: I also want to thank Robert. It's the fourteenth anniversary 665 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 4: of the day I was there with you when you 666 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 4: were able to walk out of jail, and it was 667 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 4: one of the most memorable days of my life. And 668 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 4: I've just enjoyed watching you over these last fourteen years 669 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 4: and seeing all the good that you've been doing to 670 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 4: pay it forward to all the other men and women 671 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 4: who've been in situations similar to you. So thank you 672 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 4: for your work with them and also for helping us 673 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 4: out over time. 674 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 2: Appreciate it. 675 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,360 Speaker 3: I just want to say that the worst day of 676 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 3: my life was when I was wrongfully convicted and sentenced 677 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 3: to fifteen years of life for raping kidnapping, But the 678 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 3: happiest day on my life was when I was free 679 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,240 Speaker 3: to help the Ohio Interstry Project and Columbus Dispatch because 680 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 3: it's freed me to where I'm. 681 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 2: At now, where I've been able to be there. 682 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,800 Speaker 3: For other people to, as you say, pay it forward 683 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 3: with the Ohio Interstry Project. I think it's important that 684 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 3: I don't regrets no one who gets out that want 685 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 3: to just go their own way and do their own thing. 686 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 2: And they have people do that. But I feel like I've. 687 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 3: Never had a job since I've been out because I 688 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,799 Speaker 3: feel like this is my job. This is my job, 689 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 3: and I'm on board. I'm serious about it, and it 690 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,359 Speaker 3: means it means the world to me because I noticed 691 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 3: there's other people in there that should be out and 692 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 3: I'm just doing my part to just help and bring 693 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 3: the attention to me. So I want to thank you all. 694 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 3: I want to thank you Jennifer, I want to thank 695 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 3: you Jason. Want to thank Connor for the opportunity. 696 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Rafel Conviction. I'd like to 697 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wartis. 698 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: With research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production 699 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 700 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 701 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at 702 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,279 Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On 703 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,359 Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both 704 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flam. Wrongful Conviction is 705 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good podcasts and association with 706 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one