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Speaker 1: Cool media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode, So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions, all right.

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Speaker 3: This is the last night of the DNC episode or

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Speaker 3: reporting from our homes now, which is great because I

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Speaker 3: feel like death. Garrison Davis is here, I'm Sophie Lichterman,

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Speaker 3: Robert Evans is here.

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Speaker 4: We more or less survived the DNZ. SOPHI took a

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Speaker 4: few hits there at the end. So the DNC is over,

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Speaker 4: it's wrapped up, it's all finished, Thank goodness. Tiring in

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Speaker 4: a very different way than the RNC, and I mean

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Speaker 4: obviously a very different demographic. And this is something that

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Speaker 4: I noticed just as soon as they got to the air,

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Speaker 4: Like when I got to the gate for the RNC,

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Speaker 4: it was like, oh, I'm here for the RNC, And

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Speaker 4: when I got to the gate for the DNC, it

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Speaker 4: was Oh, this is just a regular airport gate.

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Speaker 5: This is just normal people.

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Speaker 4: There's a very broad demographic that you know, pretty fairly

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Speaker 4: would represent whatever city you happen to come from. And

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Speaker 4: in calling these people normal, that's not saying they're necessarily

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Speaker 4: good people, but they're normal people. Sure, they're into politics,

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Speaker 4: maybe a little bit more than your average person, but

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Speaker 4: by and large they are kind of regular people and

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Speaker 4: including shitty in a lot of the ways that regular

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Speaker 4: people are shitty about politics, whether that be their views

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Speaker 4: on Palestine, Gaza, queer people. But it's a pretty pretty

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Speaker 4: normal demographic base.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the difference between like when something I showed

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Speaker 2: up at our gate for the RNC, we took off

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Speaker 2: our masks because the threat at that point was being

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Speaker 2: on a mask surrounded by Republicans, yes.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it was like the risk to our lives

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Speaker 3: was greater than the risk of COVID.

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Speaker 6: To our lives safe few eyes, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Whereas we just kind of treated the flights to and

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Speaker 2: from the DNC like normal flights, like like you'd handle

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Speaker 2: the normal precautions just regular people.

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Speaker 6: Some of that has to do with the fact that

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Speaker 6: Chicago's like a much larger city.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, but yes.

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Speaker 4: But I mean I got into the conversation with a

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Speaker 4: delegate from Georgia who was sitting right next to me,

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Speaker 4: you know, young guy, mid twenties. Very clearly everyone on

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Speaker 4: the plane was going to the DNC, at least for me,

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Speaker 4: And yeah, I mean you just had like a regular conversation.

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Speaker 1: Was it little John?

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Speaker 5: No, no, Sophie, it was not okay, cool?

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Speaker 2: So if he little John as a senior citizen, now it's.

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Speaker 1: Little John, thank you so much.

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Speaker 4: But no, he was this this young, kind of nominally

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Speaker 4: progressive democrat who is excited. This is I think, I

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Speaker 4: think his first time going excited to vote for Kamala

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Speaker 4: and much more excited about her than Joe. He also

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Speaker 4: just finished his college program to get a criminal justice degree,

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Speaker 4: so it's like, yeah, this is this.

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Speaker 5: Is who the democratic area.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, random, kind of kind of queer, but definitely sis dude,

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Speaker 4: like I said, gay dude, bisexual, whatever, but yeah, it's

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Speaker 4: gonna reform, reform that criminal justice from the inside. Yeah, anyway,

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Speaker 4: kind of I just wanted to descry about talking with

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Speaker 4: this kind of those kind of general convention demographics because

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Speaker 4: that's basically the same.

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Speaker 5: It felt well inside the convention as well.

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Speaker 2: Yes, a lot more. What I will say is a

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Speaker 2: lot more women who are like middle aged at the

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Speaker 2: d NC, like that was the overwhelmingly most common demographic

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Speaker 2: on like at the convention that I noticed.

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Speaker 4: And probably more racial diversity than a lot of than

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Speaker 4: a lot of cities probably Honestly, Yeah, I guess that's

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Speaker 4: a good general sign, but it's not a great sign

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Speaker 4: just in and of itself, right, I guess it's it's

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Speaker 4: good for kind of the general future of this country,

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Speaker 4: but it doesn't it doesn't really affect many of the

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Speaker 4: biggest problems that were kind of addressing, whether that be

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Speaker 4: you know, gazo that, whether that be police brutality, whether

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Speaker 4: that be all all of these other things, LGBTQ issues,

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Speaker 4: the economy, right, like that does not necessarily equal over

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Speaker 4: onto any of those, at least at the DNC. But

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Speaker 4: you know that is that is a general trend that

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Speaker 4: that that the country is heading towards.

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Speaker 7: It seems.

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Speaker 5: So there you go, and my god, was there a

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Speaker 5: lot of people there was.

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Speaker 3: There was such an unhinged amount of people, like I

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Speaker 3: can't even.

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Speaker 2: It was so much bigger and so much more crowded

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Speaker 2: than the d r n C.

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Speaker 3: I set this online when right wingers were trying to

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Speaker 3: be like there was nobody there, which was like, you're

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Speaker 3: you're so dumb.

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Speaker 2: It was vastly more crowded, but like.

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Speaker 3: At the R and C, most of the time, we

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Speaker 3: generally had an entire road to ourselves.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was always easy to find seating, super eased

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Speaker 4: to find a spot to sit any time during the

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Speaker 4: R and C. Not true for the DNC, very challenging

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Speaker 4: to find a seat. And this kind of brings us

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Speaker 4: to the last day of the convention, horrible.

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Speaker 5: The three of us wrap up.

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Speaker 4: A very nice dinner with mister Vermin supreme lovely, possibly

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Speaker 4: the most ethical presidential candidate this year.

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Speaker 2: The only presidential candidate who has been maced with a

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Speaker 2: member of the cool Zone media team. We can say

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Speaker 2: that much.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so we have a great to dinner with them.

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Speaker 4: We walked over to the DNC, massive massive lines coming outside, terrible,

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Speaker 4: and then we get told it's okay, there's a special

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Speaker 4: press entry, so we bypass all those lines. We are

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Speaker 4: feeling great, We are feeling like gods, just passing by

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Speaker 4: hundreds and hundreds of people waiting waiting line to get

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Speaker 4: in the DNC. It was a very powerful feeling. I've

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Speaker 4: never felt that empowered before.

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Speaker 2: Oh Garrison, oh you sweet summer child.

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Speaker 5: It was wonderful.

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Speaker 1: It was really a rush that can't be described.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I almost didn't want to let you guys know

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Speaker 2: that the whole venue is at capacity.

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Speaker 4: So we get up to the door after just breezing through,

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Speaker 4: going past all of those lines, and we get to

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Speaker 4: the door and all.

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Speaker 5: The doors are shut.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, their secret service at every entrance saying that nobody

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Speaker 4: can get in because the venue.

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Speaker 5: Is at capacity.

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Speaker 4: And the crash, oh my god, the crash that we

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Speaker 4: had from our high so so bad.

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Speaker 2: I talked to a couple of police officers outside the

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Speaker 2: venue who were like, yeah, the fire marshals are here,

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Speaker 2: like's it was literally I do think that it from

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Speaker 2: and from everything I've read since, I think their reboarding

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Speaker 2: was accurate. Yes, Like there were just more people than

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Speaker 2: were allowed to be in the building.

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Speaker 3: They definitely let more people in than they should have. Yeah, However,

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Speaker 3: there was a group of journalists with Garrison and myself

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Speaker 3: that were waiting to be let in, and there was

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Speaker 3: like triple the amount of people to journalists that left

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Speaker 3: in the time that we were standing there, which was

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Speaker 3: a very long time. And let me just say, the

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Speaker 3: Secret Service officer really enjoyed telling a bunch of journalists

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Speaker 3: that we couldn't come in. He was having a g night,

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Speaker 3: ruining our night.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's nothing that makes me happier than making

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Speaker 2: a journalist miserable. So I actually do feel some solidarity there.

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Speaker 2: You know, I would love to tell a bunch of

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Speaker 2: journalists fuck you.

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Speaker 4: I was certainly skeptical because of just how many people

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Speaker 4: were getting let out, because I really wanted to see

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Speaker 4: how full the venue actually was. And after waiting for

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Speaker 4: nearly for two hours, two hours.

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Speaker 6: Two hours, two hours, I went home.

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Speaker 5: Pablo's speech already started.

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Speaker 3: I abandoned you, and then some media logistics person from

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Speaker 3: the Secret Service entrance every five minutes would point at

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Speaker 3: ten people like they were the chosen ones to let them.

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Speaker 1: Into the arena.

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Speaker 3: And on round three or four, Gary and I did,

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Speaker 3: in fact get in and run up like seven or

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Speaker 3: eight flights of stairs, which I'm still feeling.

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Speaker 2: You made the cut. You made the cut.

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Speaker 7: We did.

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Speaker 2: I bet Tim Walls whispered your very names into the

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Speaker 2: ears of that Secret Service agent.

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Speaker 3: Although I do feel like a piece of me is

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Speaker 3: still on those stairs because it was brutal.

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Speaker 5: It was bad.

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Speaker 4: And then we got up to kind of the floor

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Speaker 4: of the arena that we usually entered into and they

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Speaker 4: were not lying. It was way too full. There was

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Speaker 4: not a single seat available. People were standing in the

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Speaker 4: fire exits, people were standing on the stairs and the

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Speaker 4: hallways inside the actual arena. It was, in fact a

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Speaker 4: real safety hazard.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I do really feel the need to emphasize not

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Speaker 2: one of those things where the cops were fucking over

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Speaker 2: the press or whatever for their own It was a

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Speaker 2: serious issue.

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Speaker 4: No, we saw, We saw firefighters inspecting the hallways and

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Speaker 4: letting a whole bunch of fire code violations fly. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: we were not supposed to be standing in the middle

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Speaker 4: of tent stairwell. And yeah, we got inside just in

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Speaker 4: time for the foreign policy, border patrol, and geopolitics section

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Speaker 4: of Kamalis's speech. And we will talk about her speech,

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Speaker 4: including those aspects, right after we come back from this

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Speaker 4: ad break.

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Speaker 5: All right.

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Speaker 4: The final speech of the DNC arguably the most important one,

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Speaker 4: Although the DNC just went on for so long that

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Speaker 4: I was so checked out by that last day.

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Speaker 3: Honestly, it was just Bill Clinton's nine hour speech where

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Speaker 3: he just was just the oldest man who's ever lived.

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Speaker 2: No, he's convinced me. You know, I watched last night

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Speaker 2: several episodes of the show about him committing a sex

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Speaker 2: crime as the president, and it really reminded me. Boy

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Speaker 2: slick Willy's gotten old.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you for music. My dad's nickname for Bill

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Speaker 3: Clinton on Mike Click Willy.

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Speaker 2: That's every dad's nickname for Bill Clinton.

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Speaker 3: My dad loves to call him that. Anyways, Garrison, we

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Speaker 3: got up there. We are standing in a crowd of

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Speaker 3: journalists just trying to get a glimpse of what's going on.

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Speaker 3: And is there any particular part of the speech you

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Speaker 3: want to talk about, because there's a few things that

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Speaker 3: come to mind for me.

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Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, I have notes on like the whole speech,

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Speaker 4: just you know, a few lines from each little section.

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Speaker 4: And I think this speech was more important than most

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Speaker 4: of Trump's speeches, because we've heard Trump speak, you know,

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Speaker 4: a bajillion times.

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Speaker 8: Now.

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Speaker 4: I will say Trump's R and C speech was important

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Speaker 4: because this was his first speech after getting shot at

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Speaker 4: in the head. And similarly, I think this speech for

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Speaker 4: Kamlo was extremely important because this is basically her second

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Speaker 4: presidential speech. The speech she's been using for her campaign

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Speaker 4: trail has been the same stump speech for the past month.

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Speaker 4: It's been the same one delivered many times, which is

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Speaker 4: not a regular But this is the first time we've

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Speaker 4: really heard her do a new speech, and this is

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Speaker 4: her introduction as a presidential candidate to the entire world.

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Speaker 4: As she took the stage, there's obviously tons of cheers

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Speaker 4: chants of usay. She opened by praising Biden's record and

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Speaker 4: his character, saying that that history will will prove him

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Speaker 4: to have such a great record and character. And then

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Speaker 4: she framed her own personal story as like a template

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Speaker 4: of like the American journey, right, saying, quote, I'm no

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Speaker 4: stranger to unlikely journeys unquote.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 4: She talked about her mother as an immigrant, saying her

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Speaker 4: parents met at a civil rights gathering and then her

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Speaker 4: dad taught her to be fearless, although her dad also,

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Speaker 4: I guess probably failed to teach her how to be

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Speaker 4: a good Marxist, but she did not bring that part

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Speaker 4: up in this speech.

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Speaker 2: Complicated relationship, but we all get to have one.

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Speaker 4: Yes, But her parents taught her and her sister about,

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Speaker 4: you know, different different civil rights leaders, including civil rights

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Speaker 4: lawyers that fought civil rights in court, and Kamala said,

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Speaker 4: this is what inspired her to go to law school.

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Speaker 4: Although you know, very famously, she did not become like

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Speaker 4: a civil rights lawyer.

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Speaker 5: She became a prosecutor.

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Speaker 4: And Kamala said that this was inspired by her high

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Speaker 4: school best friend getting molested by her stepfather and that's

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Speaker 4: what got her to want to go down the prosecutor path.

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Speaker 6: That was the first time that I had ever heard

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Speaker 6: her talk about that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I hadn't heard that either.

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Speaker 5: She literally did a few other times, obviously not on

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Speaker 5: that large of a stage.

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Speaker 4: Yes, no, No, There was a lot of talk about that,

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Speaker 4: and a lot of talk about her focus on like

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Speaker 4: familial sexual abuse, molestation and other sex crimes as a prosecutor,

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Speaker 4: like basically framing that as like her specialty, and that

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Speaker 4: was a good part of what she focused on, which

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Speaker 4: he was a courtan prosecutor.

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Speaker 5: The line that she.

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Speaker 4: Used to refer to her work in the court was

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Speaker 4: that quote, everyone has a right to safety, dignity, and justice.

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Speaker 4: So that was kind of the introduction to Kamala and

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Speaker 4: her background. That was like who she was, where she

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Speaker 4: came from. And then the speech pivoted to talking about

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Speaker 4: orange Man Bad, which worked very well in twenty twenty,

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Speaker 4: and I think we're going to see more of that.

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Speaker 4: The closer we get to the election.

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Speaker 2: One way or the other is the last time you're

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Speaker 2: gonna get to make hay out of it, and so

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Speaker 2: you might as well do that while the sunshine.

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Speaker 3: Yes, honestly, that was the general theme of the DNC

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Speaker 3: speeches for me, was like orange.

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Speaker 2: Man bad, we got one last shot.

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Speaker 3: We can be good for you, be good with us,

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Speaker 3: We're good orange Man back.

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Speaker 4: It's even less that they want to be elected to

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Speaker 4: make any actual progressive change. It's that in order to

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Speaker 4: do that in the future, we first need to beat

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Speaker 4: Donald Trump. And that was kind of the guiding the

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Speaker 4: guiding principle of most of the DNC and commalist speech.

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Speaker 4: She called this election a fight for America's future.

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Speaker 2: It's infuriating that, like we deal with this again right

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Speaker 2: where we have to like sit down and knock the

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Speaker 2: Republicans out and end a chunk of the conservative ideology

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Speaker 2: in this country because literally nothing can progress without doing that,

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Speaker 2: and we still can't handle the more fundamental problems. But

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Speaker 2: you know, that's the way it is.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And she talked a lot about voting rights, saying

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Speaker 4: that Trump tried to throw away your vote and when

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Speaker 4: that didn't work, he directed an armed mob to the

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Speaker 4: capital to overthrow the election. She talked about how Trump

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Speaker 4: wants to deploy the military against protests, although she said

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Speaker 4: he wanted to play the military against quote our own citizens,

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Speaker 4: but this was in reference to him wanting to deploy

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Speaker 4: the military against protests. And she framed the Supreme Court's

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Speaker 4: new ruling to give president's immunity in court from criminal

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Speaker 4: prosecution as imagining Trump but now without any guard rails,

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Speaker 4: which of course is very scary. And part of this

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Speaker 4: is Project twenty twenty five again trying to reiterate this

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Speaker 4: as the Republican's playbook in case Trump is able to

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Speaker 4: get back into office. Mentions of Project twenty twenty five

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Speaker 4: starting a series of we are not going back chance,

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Speaker 4: which I think is probably some of the best messaging

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Speaker 4: the Democrats have the opertion of deploying this go around.

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Speaker 4: I know there was an upper Democratic strategist who has

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Speaker 4: been meeting with the Kamala team who said that this

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Speaker 4: messaging doesn't work because it's too vague and too negative

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Speaker 4: and not enough focused on the future, and thankfully the Democrats,

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Speaker 4: or at least Kamala's team, did not listen to that guy,

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Speaker 4: because that is the most wrong a man has ever been.

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Speaker 4: This messaging has been played very well in person at

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Speaker 4: all these rallies, and especially at the DNC. Kama talked

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Speaker 4: a little bit about economics, saying, quote, we are charting

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Speaker 4: a future towards a strong and growing middle class unquote,

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Speaker 4: and quote, we will build an opportunity economy where everyone

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Speaker 4: has a chance to compete and a chance to succeed unquote,

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Speaker 4: which I guess is fine.

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Speaker 5: I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I have a few kind of issues with this, mainly

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Speaker 4: like what happens when you don't succeed and what happens

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Speaker 4: to the lower class. Throughout the entirety of the DNC,

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Speaker 4: there's been a lot of talk about growing a strong

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Speaker 4: middle class and a big focus on the middle class,

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Speaker 4: but very little focused on actually helping the people that

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Speaker 4: are having it the hardest in this country instead really

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Speaker 4: really catering to like the middle class voter. And I

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Speaker 4: don't know, it's it's like there's a lot of talk

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Speaker 4: about labor. There's a lot talking about like working people,

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Speaker 4: like workers' rights, that stuff all has a pretty big

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Speaker 4: spotlight at the DNC this year, but very little mentions

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Speaker 4: of how we can actually improve life for the lower class.

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Speaker 5: She did talk about, you know.

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Speaker 4: Very vague gestures towards lowering the cost of everyday needs,

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Speaker 4: but so far she's kind of yet to unveil any

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Speaker 4: actual solid policies. Really we have that first time home

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Speaker 4: buyers like twenty five K.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she's proposed some details on like how to help

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Speaker 2: increase the number of first time home buyers and build

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Speaker 2: an additional like three million homes in the United States,

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Speaker 2: Like there's been some but it is all kind of

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Speaker 2: vague at this point.

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Speaker 8: Now.

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Speaker 2: One thing that they do have going for them is

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Speaker 2: when the dim say, like we're going to cut inflation.

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Speaker 2: You know, we've seen inflation drop from the post pandemic

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Speaker 2: highs over the last couple of years to the point

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Speaker 2: where it's at now, so like that is that, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's a leg to stand on there. And in general,

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Speaker 2: I actually think one of the better economic points was

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Speaker 2: made by Clinton during his speech, which is that, like

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Speaker 2: the vast majority of jobs that have been created over

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Speaker 2: all of our lifetimes have been created under democratic presidents,

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Speaker 2: and you know if you can't, if like that's your

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Speaker 2: voting issue. The polls are also moving in the direction

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Speaker 2: of that. People seem to be trusting Kamala more on

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Speaker 2: the economy. Yan, they trusted Biden even though there's not

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Speaker 2: really a perfectly logical reason to do that. But this

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Speaker 2: is elections aren't about logic, right, Like.

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Speaker 5: No, They're about vibes.

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Speaker 2: They're about vibes in a lot of ways. They're about vibes.

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Speaker 2: And I do think the dims. I think the dims

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Speaker 2: have that actually, like the good headwinds on and now

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Speaker 2: a lot can change in the next seventy days or so.

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Speaker 2: What I really saw with this speech and with this

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Speaker 2: convention as a whole, was the Democratic Party embracing the

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Speaker 2: middle and some conservatives. And yeah, they tried not to

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Speaker 2: be too directly abrasive to progressives and the left.

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Speaker 5: But they weren't catering to them.

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Speaker 2: But they were not catering to it.

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Speaker 8: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Kamala did attack Trump on taxes, specifically saying that trumpill

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Speaker 4: do tax breaks to his billionaire friends, it'll add a

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Speaker 4: five trillion too the national debt, and she called Trump's

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Speaker 4: tariff proposal basically a national sales tax, or a Trump

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Speaker 4: tax that will raise costs for middle class families by

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Speaker 4: up to four thousand dollars a year, which is in

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Speaker 4: line with the whole bunch of economists' predictions if Trump's

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Speaker 4: tariffs do go through, and then again gesturing to kind

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Speaker 4: of vague policy ideas without actually proposing strict policies, saying

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Speaker 4: that quote, we will provide access to capital for entrepreneurs,

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Speaker 4: small business owners, and founders, warning that Trump will ban

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Speaker 4: abortion pills and enact in national abortion ban and force

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Speaker 4: the states to report on people's abortions and miscarriages, and

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Speaker 4: instead of common will sign into law a bill that

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Speaker 4: protects abortion access nationally, as well as calling to pass

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Speaker 4: the John Lewis Voting Rights Act and the Freedom to

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Speaker 4: Vote Act, and more kind of vague gestures towards protecting

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Speaker 4: the freedom to love who you love, to have clean

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Speaker 4: air and clean water, and the freedom that unlocks all others,

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Speaker 4: the freedom to vote. So that's kind of the most

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Speaker 4: of the domestic policy section of the speech, and that

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Speaker 4: is the part of the speech that we missed. And

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Speaker 4: then we came in right started talking about the border,

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Speaker 4: saying again that, like many others have talked about the

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Speaker 4: DNC how the Democrats and Republicans worked together to write

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Speaker 4: the strongest border bill in decades, and Kamala said that

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Speaker 4: this bill was endorsed by the Border Patrol which it wasn't.

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Speaker 4: It was endorsed by the Border Patrol.

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Speaker 5: Union, but who cares.

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Speaker 4: And Kamma talked about how Trump called Republicans to kill

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Speaker 4: the bill so that Democrats couldn't take credit, and she

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Speaker 4: promised that she will bring back this bill and sign

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Speaker 4: it into law, saying that, quote, we can create an

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Speaker 4: earned pathway to citizenship and.

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Speaker 5: Secure our border unquote.

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Speaker 4: So again, this is one of the areas that Democrats

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Speaker 4: I think have lost the most amount of ground on

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Speaker 4: the past like eight years, and they are still kind

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Speaker 4: of willing to seed it. And then in terms of

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Speaker 4: like geopolitics and foreign policy, one line of kammalist that

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Speaker 4: has kind of cotton some flak, but also I don't know,

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Speaker 4: I'll just read it, we can talk about it. She

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Speaker 4: said that quote, I will ensure America always has the

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Speaker 4: strong I guess to most lethal fighting force in the world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so did you guys, what did you think by

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Speaker 2: the use of that language.

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Speaker 3: I think she was trying to appeal to the voters

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Speaker 3: that don't think a woman can lead.

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Speaker 1: That's the end of my sentence.

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Speaker 5: Agreed.

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Speaker 2: Oh interesting, I feel very differently.

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Speaker 4: I found this as being a reaction to right wing

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Speaker 4: and centrist attacks kind of questioning her strength as a leader. Yea,

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Speaker 4: So she went for very very like intense language on this.

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Speaker 2: So I feel very differently about that. And I think

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Speaker 2: this may be just due to the fact that I've

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Speaker 2: kind of some more experience with how people in the

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Speaker 2: NATSK space speak, because the phrasing that she used, it's

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Speaker 2: been lampooned a lot online. We've all had a couple

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Speaker 2: of some bits about, you know, talking about I don't

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Speaker 2: want a lethal the most lethal military in the world.

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Speaker 2: I want this or that, but like that's what the

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Speaker 2: military does. No, no, Well, lethality is also a meme term, right,

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Speaker 2: Like that's the way it is used in this space.

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Speaker 2: Like if you go to like speeches where people who

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Speaker 2: are involved in any level as contractors in the military

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Speaker 2: industrial complex making arms working for like, it is all

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Speaker 2: about when they're talking about like improving efficiency within the

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Speaker 2: air Force, it's about lethality, right, we are increasing lethality,

445
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:26,959
Speaker 2: Like that is our goal. That's what we're doing here today,

446
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 2: because that is the measure by which you determine the

447
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:34,159
Speaker 2: success of the organization. So what I saw Harris as

448
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,480
Speaker 2: doing by using that specific terminology was not I am

449
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,800
Speaker 2: trying to talk extra hard in order to burnish my

450
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,959
Speaker 2: credentials because conservatives are going to attack me. It was

451
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 2: Trump is actually kind of weak on the national security stuff,

452
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,600
Speaker 2: especially within the community of people who are like Natsek

453
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,240
Speaker 2: gools Yeah, right, within people who are members who have

454
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 2: are born and raised members like my family, a lot

455
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 2: of them, of the military industrial complex, the people who

456
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,920
Speaker 2: have their professions in that space, right, they actually don't

457
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 2: all like Trump a lot. And some evidence of that

458
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,679
Speaker 2: was recently he made some statements where he essentially insulted

459
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,880
Speaker 2: Medal of Honor recipients that like the VFW came out

460
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,639
Speaker 2: and attacked Trump, which is wild, like absolutely unpaced.

461
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:22,119
Speaker 1: I do think it's a little bit.

462
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 3: I definitely agree with you, Robert, but I do think

463
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:25,720
Speaker 3: it's a little bit of what gar and I were

464
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,960
Speaker 3: talking about as well. An another thing that I'm just

465
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 3: thinking of, as Robert saying that, is just how often

466
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,480
Speaker 3: Trump has said that, you know, the war, the war

467
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,639
Speaker 3: in Ukraine wouldn't happen if he was in office, that

468
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 3: like he putn't scared of him and things like that,

469
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 3: as like one of his main reasons why we should

470
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 3: re elect him is because he commands authority and nobody

471
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,920
Speaker 3: did anything bad when he was in power. And I

472
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,680
Speaker 3: think a lot of that has to do with Kamala's

473
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 3: language choice.

474
00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's she said what she said because

475
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,200
Speaker 2: it was a way of expressing like.

476
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,440
Speaker 4: Like an internal signifier to other people in the NAT

477
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 4: sock space.

478
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was. It was.

479
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:09,159
Speaker 5: It was a way of saying that I am not

480
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 5: just I'm not an outsider.

481
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 2: I am a professional. I understand and speak about this

482
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 2: the same way that you guys do.

483
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, yeah, right, No, I can I can see that.

484
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 2: You know, the whole speech I kind of saw in

485
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 2: those terms. It was very much calculated. I could see

486
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,400
Speaker 2: who they were trying to get with that speech. There

487
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,679
Speaker 2: was a bit in there for everybody, uh, and they

488
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 2: were trying to get kind of those moderate chunks of

489
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 2: every group, including moderate chunks of the people whose like

490
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 2: primary issue is gaza, right, because there is a chunk

491
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 2: of the people who's who are are mostly concerned to

492
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 2: this election with what the fuck we're going to do

493
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 2: about Gaza. But also are not you know, hardline communists

494
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 2: or whatever? You know, are people who like the uncommitted folks,

495
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 2: really want to embrace the Democratic Party, and are maybe.

496
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 5: People who still believe in the system want to just.

497
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 2: Need a little bit of a lie that they can

498
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 2: go along with to vote right, Like Kamala was attempting

499
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 2: to kind of give because she didn't announce a substantive

500
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 2: change in policy. No, her verbiage on Gaza in this

501
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 2: speech was the same as the kind of stuff that

502
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,160
Speaker 2: like Obama was saying, honestly, like ten years ago.

503
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 6: Sure, Gary, do you have a quote of what she said? Yeah,

504
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 6: let's talk about it. But first let's head to our

505
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 6: last ad.

506
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 1: Break real quick.

507
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 4: All right, let's talk about her closing remarks relating on

508
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 4: foreign policy and Palestine. I guess there's a few other

509
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 4: kind of general foreign policy things. Yeah, saying that under

510
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 4: her watch, quote, we will lead the world into the

511
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 4: future on space and artificial intelligence, America, not China will

512
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,199
Speaker 4: win the competition for the twenty first century unquote. She

513
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 4: framed Trump as an ally of Russia and Putin, and

514
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 4: she claimed that she will help us quote stand strong

515
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 4: with Ukraine and our NATO allies. And then finally, one

516
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 4: of the last things she talked about was Israel Palestine, saying, quote,

517
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 4: President Bien and I are working around the clock. Now

518
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 4: is the time to get a hostage deal done and

519
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 4: a ceasefire deal done. This had a decent sized cheer.

520
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 4: She followed this up by saying, quote, we will always

521
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 4: stand for Israel's right to defend itself and ensure Israel

522
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 4: has the ability to defend itself unquote. And I think

523
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 4: this signals mostly to people that it's unlikely she will

524
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 4: adopt anything resembling an arms embargo, And there was a

525
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 4: lot of internal pressure from the uncommitted folks, people who

526
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 4: got into the DNC trying to push on this topic,

527
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 4: specifically because Democrats are now kind of adopted kind of

528
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,679
Speaker 4: vague ceasefire rhetoric. Now, the goalpost does need to be

529
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 4: shifted towards something that will actually stop the bombing of

530
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 4: families inside Gaza, and that is an arms embargo, some

531
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 4: kind of conditions on the way that bombs and weapons

532
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 4: are going to be used. And I think this line

533
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 4: signified that that is probably not going to take place,

534
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:01,959
Speaker 4: at least before the election.

535
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: No, definitely, not before the election.

536
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 2: Wait, that's very clear at this point.

537
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 4: And she kind of both sides this issue. Yeah, Her

538
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 4: last quote was quote, what has happened in Gaza over

539
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:17,360
Speaker 4: the past ten months is devastating. So many innocent lives lost, desperate,

540
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 4: hungry people fleeing for safety. Why over and over again,

541
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 4: the scale of suffering is heartbreaking.

542
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 2: Whom is making them do this?

543
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 4: President Biden and I are working to end this war

544
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 4: such that Israel is secure, the hostages are released, the

545
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 4: suffering in Gaza ends, and the Palestinian people can realize

546
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 4: their right to dignity, security, freedom, and self determination.

547
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 5: Unquote. And this was.

548
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 4: Followed by what I would call the biggest cheers of

549
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 4: the entire night.

550
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 9: Yeah, I was.

551
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,120
Speaker 6: I was about to say the crowd reaction was massive to.

552
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 4: That people lost it so much, bigger cheers than saying

553
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 4: we will ensure Israel has the ability to defend itself.

554
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 4: This closing line about dignity, security, freedom, and self determination

555
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 4: for the Palestinian people gotten by far the biggest years.

556
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 5: And but like, what does it mean? Like what are

557
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 5: you actually saying?

558
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: It means nothing?

559
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 2: I mean, what all of that means to me? Is

560
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 2: that like Democrats because they are normal people, they're not Republicans.

561
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 2: They know how bad all this is. They hate it.

562
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 5: They are mad at at and Yahoo.

563
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 2: You only really need to see a couple of war

564
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 2: crime videos to know that, like what happened is happening

565
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 2: over there is ghastly. They also aren't willing to like

566
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 2: nuke their lives and a lot of other people's lives

567
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 2: to let Trump back in, right.

568
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 4: And I do believe they genuinely view Israel as an

569
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 4: extremely important ally in the Middle East.

570
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they think that this could be fixed, right

571
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 2: because like we did some awful stuff in Iraq, but

572
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 2: then we elected Bobama and everything got better, right or

573
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 2: something like that. Yeah.

574
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 4: No, I mean like they don't like Netan Yahoo, the

575
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 4: batting admin doesn't like that Yahoo because he's not efficient

576
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 4: at war. He's efficient at doing like like an ethnic cleansing,

577
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 4: he's efficient at doing wide civilian casualties, but he's not

578
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 4: gonna actually like fighting this war very well. This is

579
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 4: something that like Biden's team has consistently not been thrilled by,

580
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 4: but they're not gonna do much about it. Kind of

581
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 4: the last foreign policy line that she had was quote,

582
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 4: I will never hesitate to take whatever action is necessary

583
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 4: to defend our forces and our interests against Iran and

584
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 4: Iran backed terrorists, and will not cozy up to tyrants

585
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 4: and dictators like Kim Jong un who are rooting for

586
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 4: Trump unquote. And I think basically this ties into a

587
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 4: whole bunch of rhetoric that I've seen throughout the DNC,

588
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 4: including from speakers, speakers who are either vets or active military,

589
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 4: that seems to be kind of slowly preparing the Democratic

590
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 4: Party for another war, for some kind of on the

591
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 4: ground activity in the Middle East, whether that be in Lebanon,

592
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 4: whether that be in Iran.

593
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 5: It's like they're slowly just.

594
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 4: Prepping us for the possibility of war or invasion.

595
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: Oh, that does seem likely.

596
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 4: This is a big part of like the Democratic Party's

597
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 4: official like policy platform on Phalesteine, which they did release

598
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 4: during the DNC, and a big part of that is

599
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 4: about is talking about how important Israel is as a

600
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 4: Middle East ally.

601
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 2: Where will we fly our planes over.

602
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 4: If they ever need to put troops on the ground.

603
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 4: And I think that is so much of why they're

604
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 4: unwilling to budge on anything resembling like an actual ceasefire

605
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 4: or an arms embargo. Is because they view this as

606
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,479
Speaker 4: like a real possibility. Anyway, that was that was this speech.

607
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 4: The balloons dropped. Everyone lost their minds. Yep, it's not

608
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 4: a cult in the same way.

609
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 2: But there's there's you can see one building.

610
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 4: Maybe the party is a cult, but it's not a

611
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 4: Kamala cult the same way the GOP is now a

612
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 4: Trump cult, right, like the Republicans are now a Trump cult.

613
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 10: It is.

614
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 4: It is not a cult of like who is the

615
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 4: leader in the DNC, but it is more of a

616
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 4: cult of like ideology, which I guess the Republicans just

617
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 4: don't even have anymore.

618
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 2: It's not even that it's it's a cult of I

619
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 2: think I would describe it as defensive cult making. Democrats

620
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 2: have been so bewildered and frightened by the momentum that

621
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 2: and his people have had over the last decade, and

622
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 2: they have like responded in part by adapting some aspects

623
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: of like the cultic milieu to wrap around these ideas

624
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 2: that like are safe to them like that. That's a

625
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 2: big part of the appeal of that don't go back

626
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,959
Speaker 2: champ right, which I think is a smart bit of

627
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 2: politics and I think actually it has the potential to

628
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 2: save quite a bit of lives, particularly at least of

629
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 2: like queer trans people in the United States. So I'm

630
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 2: not saying this is bad politics, but there is a

631
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 2: level of cultiness to that where you are kind of

632
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 2: enrapturing people with this possibility of constant forward motion that

633
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 2: we all know doesn't feel as true as it felt

634
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 2: in twenties fifteen or fourteen, you know, it doesn't feel

635
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 2: as possible as it felt in twenty twelve or two

636
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 2: thousand and eight. That they're kind of trying to sell

637
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 2: people on if we can just get over the hurdle

638
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 2: of these Republicans, right, we can get back to the

639
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: period where like things felt like we were all moving

640
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 2: in the right direction, and that's magical thinking, Yeah.

641
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 5: We can get back to a period of steady progress.

642
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 2: I try to be even about this because as I

643
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 2: wrote that episode, the fucking don't panic episode, because I

644
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 2: was looking at people's talking on Reddit and Twitter and

645
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 2: just in real life and being like, I think some

646
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 2: folks might kill themselves soon, yeah, out of fear of

647
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 2: the Republicans. So I really hope no one reads what

648
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 2: I'm saying is like, ah, these stupid libs and their

649
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 2: hope fetish It's like no, no, no, but it's still

650
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 2: a cultic belief. It's not rational. It may be necessary

651
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 2: sometimes irrational beliefs are necessary, sure, but there's not a

652
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 2: good reason for it yet. And don't fall too far.

653
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 2: Like fall, try not to fall further down that hole.

654
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 2: Then you need to fall in order to keep yourself

655
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 2: alive for the next eight months.

656
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 4: So, even though Trump has spoke a lot the past

657
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 4: eight years, his speech at the ER and C I

658
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 4: think was important because it was the first one post assassination.

659
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 4: His viewership for that speech peaked at twenty eight point

660
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 4: four million. Viewership for Kamala's speech Thursday night peaked at

661
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 4: twenty eight point nine million. So she edged him out

662
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 4: just barely, at least in terms of peak numbers, by

663
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 4: about five hundred thousand views.

664
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: Very even, very even, yeah.

665
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 5: Very even.

666
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 4: And again like Kama's not spoken tons, there's a lot

667
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 4: of people of tuning in to see what she sounds like,

668
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 4: kind of for the first time on a big national platform.

669
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 4: And meanwhile, I think people are just briefly tuning into

670
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 4: Trump just to see what he's like after getting shot

671
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 4: in the head. And I will read a few of

672
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 4: Trump's tweets of.

673
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 2: Well, he's not doing well. He's not doing well at all?

674
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: Man, was he spiraling? Oh my god?

675
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 5: From Kamala's speech? He just started by all caps, is

676
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 5: she talking about me?

677
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 2: Excellent, incredible stuff, Donald, buddy, I can tell you're slipping

678
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 2: because four years ago, if you'd tried to tweet that out,

679
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 2: you wouldn't have had to hear it from someone. There

680
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 2: would have been a voice in your own head before

681
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 2: you pressin that would have been like, don't do that, Donnie,

682
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 2: come on, Donnie, come on, come on, You're better than.

683
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 4: This quote too many thank yous, too rapidly said what's

684
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 4: going on with her? Followed by one minute later in

685
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 4: all caps, where's Hunter see again?

686
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 2: His prime? It would have been something. It would have

687
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 2: been something like loopy harror, shit, some shit. He would

688
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 2: have made some sort of insulting remark about her personal

689
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 2: appearance and ignored the rest of the speech.

690
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 4: One one minute later, Walls was an assistant coach, not

691
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 4: a coach.

692
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 2: That's such a weak.

693
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: Very funny, very funny.

694
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 5: Oh my god.

695
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 2: Most American men have been on a sports team, and

696
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 2: we all know you just call them all coach. Everyone

697
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 2: is like coach, They're just all coach. You don't say

698
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 2: assistant coach. No player in a football team is everything like, hey,

699
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 2: assistant coach, could you come over here? Like that's just

700
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:08,919
Speaker 2: not the way people are.

701
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: No wow, anything else.

702
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 4: A few months ago, we did an episode talking about

703
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 4: kind of polls that is now largely outdated because Biden's

704
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 4: no longer in the race, but we did talk about

705
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 4: how most people's pick for president was literally anybody else.

706
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 4: We saw one booth at the DNC protest that was

707
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 4: literally anyone else themed booth, And oh boy, do I

708
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 4: have news for you, buddy.

709
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 7: Good news.

710
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 4: But we do have some polling data kind of on

711
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 4: how satisfied people feel based on their choices for this

712
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 4: presidential election. Now, obviously there's there's a small post convention

713
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 4: bump for Harris, but that that that kind of usually

714
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 4: tapers off. But in terms of their satisfaction of the

715
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 4: candidacy options, in May, only fifty five percent of Democrats

716
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 4: said they were satisfied. Now seventy nine percent say they're satisfied.

717
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 4: Massive and for Republicans, back in May, sixty eight were

718
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 4: satisfied and now seventy four are satisfied, so but both

719
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:08,399
Speaker 4: are moving towards higher satisfaction. And obviously the giant shift

720
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 4: in Democrat numbers is because is because of Kamala now

721
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 4: and they're more satisfied with her than Republicans seem to

722
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,240
Speaker 4: be with Trump, which is which is an interesting stat

723
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 4: And this is based on a New York Times Seata

724
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 4: College poll of registered voters in Arizona, Georgia, Nomada, Michigan, Pennsylvania,

725
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 4: and Wisconsin.

726
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 5: So that's just.

727
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 4: A few a few interesting a few interesting little notes

728
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 4: there as we close out this week talking about the DNC.

729
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 4: And then finally I have one kind of little funny anecdote.

730
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 4: As we were leaving the DNC after Kamala's speech, means,

731
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 4: Sophie was walking around this area of Chicago trying to

732
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 4: get far enough away from the convention center to get

733
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 4: nuber and I saw this guy maybe in his like

734
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 4: oh so funny, probably in his twenties, who is either

735
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,240
Speaker 4: about to block up or just de blocked.

736
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 5: And you can tell because he's wearing the pants he's wearing.

737
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 2: Doc Martins Scarrison is referring to someone who has just

738
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 2: taken off their black block as in the traditional kind

739
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 2: of anarchist protest garb and put on normal street clothes

740
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 2: so as to escape from a police cordon.

741
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, so this guy was walking around, either about to

742
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,320
Speaker 4: go to the protest or just left still had the

743
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 4: Doc martins On, had like the backpack full of his stuff.

744
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 4: And as he walked by me, I just almost instinctively,

745
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 4: like without thinking at all, this was this was this

746
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 4: wasn't on purpose, Just instinctively, I kind of muttered to myself,

747
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 4: I know what you are and and he heard this

748
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,760
Speaker 4: and like turned around, looking kind of like confused or concern,

749
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 4: and I just had to I had to turn around.

750
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 4: I just gave him a smile and a thumbs up,

751
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 4: and he smiled back and kept and kept walking on.

752
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 4: And that was my last interaction at the DNC, just

753
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 4: like this a little bit of using to me. There

754
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 4: was a protest of around similar numbers to Mondays, so

755
00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 4: maybe like three thousand, two thousand people for kind of

756
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 4: the last march on the DNC last Thursday. So there

757
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,760
Speaker 4: was another one of these big kind of coalition led marches.

758
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 2: Quickly. It was not far from Monday's numbers actually, which

759
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 2: was impressive.

760
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 4: Pretty close, pretty close, but they did not reach the

761
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 4: fence on like last time, a small section of them

762
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 4: did not break off from the protest marshals and bypass

763
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 4: a section of the fence on onlike Monday, which did

764
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 4: cause significant disruptions, but disruptions were not needed because the

765
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 4: DNZ disrupted itself by overbooking the venue and having way

766
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 4: too many people.

767
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 5: So there you go. That was the DNC.

768
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 6: I'm really glad it's over me too.

769
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 2: I'm really glad it's over too. And I can't wait

770
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 2: until twenty twenty eight when we all get to be

771
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 2: together again to cover the next election. If there is.

772
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 4: One, Comrade AOC proudly takes control. She raises the red

773
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 4: flag on stage.

774
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 2: Comrade AOC with her vice presidential candidate, the literal bones

775
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 2: of Leon Trotsky running versus just an open chasm to

776
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 2: the pit of Hell, an actual crack in the earth

777
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 2: through which you can see the ephemeral forms of demons

778
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 2: roiling in the magma below. That's gotta be a great

779
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 2: gotta be a great one. Really excited for those conventions.

780
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: And or Donald Trump Junior.

781
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:25,320
Speaker 2: Eric Trump and Donald Trump Junior, finally the Dream Team.

782
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 5: I believe they could open up a chasm to Hell.

783
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:28,919
Speaker 8: I do.

784
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 2: I think what would be more likely is if Eric

785
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 2: Trump and Donald Trump Junior are on the same team

786
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 2: with a bunch of secret Service agents, that we finally,

787
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:41,399
Speaker 2: finally have a presidential election decided from a fentanyl overdose.

788
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 2: They get some tampered coke.

789
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: Anyways, the podcast is over.

790
00:38:46,760 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 11: I'm gonna go die now goodbye.

791
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 10: When therefore, a man is told you your inner being

792
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,919
Speaker 10: are so and so because your skull bone is so constituted,

793
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 10: this means nothing else than that we regard a bone

794
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 10: as the man's reality. To retort upon such a statement,

795
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 10: The retort here would properly speaking, have to go to

796
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 10: the link, so breaking the skull of the person who

797
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 10: makes a statement like that, in order to demonstrate to

798
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 10: him in a manner as palpable as his own wisdom,

799
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 10: that a bone is nothing of an inherent nature at

800
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 10: all for a man still less his true reality. Welcome

801
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 10: to knapp here. I'm your host, Bia Wong. That was

802
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 10: the man himself, George Wilhelm Frederick Hegel from the Phenomenology

803
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 10: of Mind.

804
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 7: I'm gonna go full Ceesar shape post here like that's not.

805
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 10: Hegel lovely and with me is as you as you

806
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 10: have just heard is Emmie Flores, a queer socialist in

807
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 10: Mexico City who's we've had on the show before talk

808
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 10: about Mexican turfs, who's worked with Zapotisea Networks, And we are,

809
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 10: once again, I think, delving into the terrifying, extremely well

810
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 10: organized world of Mexican turfs. And I guess this is

811
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 10: kind of a they're eating a bit of shit episode,

812
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:27,720
Speaker 10: which is good.

813
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 7: We have good news in this show.

814
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 10: Who very rare occurrence we have. We have a little

815
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 10: bit of good news. Yeah, also, welcome to the show.

816
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 10: Excited to have you back.

817
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 7: I love it. I love the show, and I'm happy

818
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 7: to update because last time we left on a real

819
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 7: sour note, and this time, I mean, it's not exactly

820
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 7: fantastic news, but things are looking up in this specific part,

821
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 7: and I think you're going to introduce us to a

822
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 7: massive dolly we just got worldwide.

823
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,800
Speaker 10: Yeah, so we ended up not doing a full episode

824
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 10: on this, but one of the big sort of stories

825
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 10: for the last few weeks.

826
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 5: And I don't know.

827
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 10: When this episod is gonna be coming out, so maybe

828
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 10: this is gonna be ancient news by that point. But

829
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 10: the day we're recording this is like one day after

830
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,479
Speaker 10: the Aegerian boxer in mon khalif I'd won the gold

831
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 10: medal of the Olympics. She has been I mean, this

832
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 10: story has been sort of beaten to death, but like

833
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:25,240
Speaker 10: she's been like accused of being a man and being

834
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 10: like transgender, and like all of this shit from a

835
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 10: whole bunch of like, I mean everyone from like Elon

836
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 10: Musk to like jk Rowling to Meggan. Kelly's losing her

837
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 10: mind about it. I forgot she even existed until this,

838
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 10: but she's apparently around and doing this, you know. So

839
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,359
Speaker 10: so I think people sort of know the basics of

840
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 10: this story, but there's a part of the story about

841
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,919
Speaker 10: sort of you know, I will, I guess we'll probably

842
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 10: get into a little bit of this about how a

843
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 10: lot of this is sort of manufactured by a bunch

844
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 10: of incredibly sore losers and like weird transphobes in a

845
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 10: incredibly corrupt like Russian ran boxing association, right right. But

846
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 10: the other side of this, it has gotten absolutely zero

847
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 10: coverage anywhere. Is that a huge amount of the attacks

848
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 10: against against her were started by the Mexican Turf Network.

849
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,359
Speaker 7: Yeah, and so presently one of the few coverages I've

850
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 7: seen has been in Mexican like feminist news, which is

851
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 7: like part of the things that have changed since then,

852
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 7: like Mexican and Latin American feminists have realized, oh, we

853
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:35,360
Speaker 7: fucked up, and we're trying to fix our mistakes. But sadly,

854
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 7: I think the world suffered one of our latest mistakes.

855
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,959
Speaker 10: Yeah, so can you tell us about sort of how

856
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 10: this whole thing started, which I think is like several

857
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 10: years earlier than most people seem to really like understand.

858
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 7: I think the corruption angle that we might expand a

859
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 7: little bit more, that is the beginning of it. And

860
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 7: I think it was a little bit and it was

861
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 7: like in the wrong place at the wrong time. Let's

862
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 7: be real, she won gold. I was not betting on

863
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 7: her winning gold. Like, she's really good, but she's not

864
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 7: like the buffiest out there. It's pure racism and convenience

865
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 7: that she's been labeled and targeted the way the wish

866
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 7: is because like you see her opponents and there are

867
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 7: the buffiest girls I've ever seen in my life. They're incredible,

868
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 7: Like every single athlete up there is amazing. And took

869
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 7: pictures of her and say, you're telling me, this is

870
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:33,280
Speaker 7: not a man like she's like a little bit skinny honestly,

871
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:35,320
Speaker 7: Like she's really tall, so she has to be skinny

872
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:36,319
Speaker 7: to be competing that way.

873
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 10: It's like have you had people ever seen a boxer before,

874
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 10: Like it's just bad.

875
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 7: Like one of the boxers that defended her, like she

876
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 7: was offended, Like you're telling me that I've been in

877
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 7: money before, and like I didn't even qualify for these

878
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 7: year's Olympics. Like she's not invincible, even if this is

879
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 7: probably her best best performance. Yea, she really show on

880
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 7: the spotlight. I love her, but like she's not extremely

881
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 7: muscular or anything. Not that being muscular is masculine, but

882
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 7: like this was really just both racism and convenience. But

883
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 7: part of that is uh. One of the first people

884
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 7: who started complaining about this after the corrupt Russian Russian

885
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 7: Oligor glad box in federation that got disqualified from the Olympics.

886
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 10: Yeah, like again I want I want a plause here

887
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 10: and everyone like take note of this. Do you understand

888
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 10: how corrupt of an organization you have to be for

889
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 10: the fucking Olympics to stop working with you, Like you

890
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,879
Speaker 10: have to make the Chicago fucking machine look squeaky clean

891
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 10: for for the Olympics to network.

892
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 12: Like when we're talking about every single other sport is

893
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 12: also wind shit like this, Like they just went to

894
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,439
Speaker 12: greedy like they like in some Russian oligarch that got

895
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 12: into fights with people during the war in Ukraine, and

896
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,720
Speaker 12: then they didn't stop doing corruption shit, Like they couldn't

897
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 12: just take a year break.

898
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 7: They had to push. Yeah, like they had to play

899
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 7: two dirty. So at the end of the day in

900
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 7: Manica disqualified with like trust me, pro levels of citations

901
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 7: for her. No one knew for a while what what

902
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 7: was the thing that disqualified her? What was it? Hormones, chromosomes, vibes.

903
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 7: It turns out it's mostly vibes. Yeah, and uh so

904
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:29,479
Speaker 7: when when she got disqualified from a not an Olympic event,

905
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 7: but uh corrupt Russian arclead event. A former boxer who

906
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 7: lost against her, who's from Mexico, who sucks ass like

907
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 7: she's really dog shit. She started posting pictures of her

908
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 7: ruses after the match, and honestly, she reminds me of

909
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 7: the Italian boxer that also got her ship rocks. Yeah,

910
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:55,919
Speaker 7: because they keep she did perform very well in Many

911
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 7: at the at the end when when she got gold,

912
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 7: but the very first like matches she got were against

913
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 7: like how did these people get here?

914
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 10: Yeah, like that that Italian boxer, Like this is the

915
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 10: only time I will ever say this about something that

916
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:10,280
Speaker 10: happened in the Olympics.

917
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 5: It's like the Italian boxer threw the.

918
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 10: Worst punch I've ever seen and then instantly got punched

919
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 10: by like the most obvious punch of the entire world

920
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 10: in the face.

921
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 5: It's like, wait, what are you doing? How did you

922
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:21,879
Speaker 5: get here?

923
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 7: Like, and like I won't go deep into why why

924
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 7: Brianda Tamara sucks so much as because that would have

925
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 7: been the episode we ended up not doing, but suffice

926
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:33,959
Speaker 7: it to say, like she's just not in that level.

927
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 7: She didn't qualify for a reason this time. But and

928
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 7: also I noticed that she was waiting to do her

929
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:44,800
Speaker 7: proterview right now, like something fill planned about all of this. Yeah,

930
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 7: Like she she announced that she retired from amateur boxing,

931
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 7: which you not, honestly is the more legit boxing, don't

932
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 7: at me. And she she's going bro which means she's

933
00:46:56,160 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 7: now charging for tickets. And she announced her ProView the

934
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 7: same day that this whole like bundle started for international

935
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,759
Speaker 7: people watching the Olympics. Like she very much knew that

936
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 7: the people were gonna try something.

937
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 10: Yeah, so she so she's using this as like boxing promoting, yeah,

938
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 10: pretty much, which is like the shady ship.

939
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, boxing promoting in Cinela, which like if you know

940
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 7: anything about Mexico, that's that's gonna be a couple of

941
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:29,360
Speaker 7: red les, oh boy. But so the thing is, why

942
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 7: did she knew that she was gonna happen? Really says

943
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 7: a lot about how international terms are operating nowadays, right,

944
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 7: like I don't want to get all fucking Russia Gate

945
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 7: and like like have my fucking persecure body pillow like

946
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:46,720
Speaker 7: some leaves have. But terms are trying to get money

947
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 7: and influence anywhere they can, and some of them are

948
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,800
Speaker 7: trying to get in from Russia, right like yeah, it's

949
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 7: if they're already putting people in concreation camps in China,

950
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,359
Speaker 7: like they say, hell, yeah, I want me some of that.

951
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 7: And you know the Brits are something too focused on Britain.

952
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 7: You need something international to make the money flow down

953
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 7: to Latin America, especially out of Spain. Spain kind of

954
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 7: hawks it all for themselves. The first new site that

955
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 7: took the years ago translated to English is called Redox

956
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 7: magazine like that, I think it's a Canadian joint reados.

957
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:22,840
Speaker 7: It's the only side I've seen in all of like

958
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:28,840
Speaker 7: the urf landscape that only publishes in English and Spanish. Like,

959
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 7: it's very clearly a fulcrum for like terf organizing in

960
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 7: Latin America and in the anglosphere. And I don't think

961
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 7: it's a coincidence that this story broke quote unquote, Like

962
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 7: the first people who commented on this and like renewed

963
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 7: the accusations of Umana being trans was Redocs and then

964
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 7: other like transphobic boxing coaches from Italy and England and

965
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 7: the United States started picking up the story. But that

966
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 7: was after like the more diplomatically minded Mexican turfs and

967
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 7: Spanish turfs that usually don't work together. Again, they don't

968
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 7: like to share. Listen, Mexico don't have the best relationship

969
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 7: with Spain for obvious reasons. Yeah, But even then, like

970
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 7: ass spaces for TERFs in Mexico had been closing, they're

971
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 7: looking for funding from other places. Right, the turf gambit

972
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 7: didn't work quite well in Mexico, so they're trying to

973
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 7: look for international sponsor sponsorships, and they thought they had

974
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 7: hit a big one here. They had the attention of

975
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 7: the entire world. People were sharing Breanda's photos because like again,

976
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 7: Brianda doesn't have it's not a good boxer, so she

977
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 7: looks like a young short, pretty lated like beer Verista,

978
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 7: and put her against like someone who's like a head

979
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 7: taller that beat her ass because she she sucks. They

980
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:53,919
Speaker 7: couldn't ask for a very propaganda. Yeah, but it really

981
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 7: backfired when the entire world went, what what are you

982
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 7: talking about? Yeah, but I think it worked for Mexican turfs.

983
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:05,320
Speaker 7: I think they might get like a couple of grants

984
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:09,359
Speaker 7: here and there. They're back in the railar at least internationally,

985
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 7: and that's why I think coming here is really important

986
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 7: because we didn't win precisely, and we'll get to that,

987
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 7: but at least we're in a stalemate, and I think

988
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:21,359
Speaker 7: they're trying to look for either allies or honestly job

989
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 7: s elsewhere. They might just want a spot in Ridos magazine,

990
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 7: like to get into like be able to move to

991
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:29,799
Speaker 7: Britain or shit like that.

992
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:30,399
Speaker 8: Yeah.

993
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 10: I think is something that is important about the Mexican TERFs,

994
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 10: which is like unlike in the US, where there's just

995
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 10: this like unbelievably large pot of money that you can

996
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 10: tap into from like the Heritage Foundation and like all

997
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 10: of these sort of like right wing think tanks. It's

998
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:50,799
Speaker 10: like the funding is a lot harder to come by.

999
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:53,360
Speaker 7: We all have troubles getting funding.

1000
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 10: Lot.

1001
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 7: Yeah, any type of small grant that would be a

1002
00:50:57,239 --> 00:51:00,399
Speaker 7: nothing burger in America goes a long way here, right,

1003
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 7: And so the far right has been really smart and

1004
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 7: pushing stuff, but it hasn't really paid divends. And it's

1005
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 7: all gonna write up for a while, honestly, especially with

1006
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 7: like how the economy is going. I think in the

1007
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 7: Age of infinite money of twenty twenty, like they were

1008
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:18,720
Speaker 7: willing to throw more money at like a long shot

1009
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 7: that in Brasil or Mexico right now. They got to

1010
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 7: bring something to the table, and they tried to bring

1011
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 7: in money, and they I think they fucking ate shit.

1012
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 10: Hell yeah, So okay, you know what else brings something

1013
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 10: to the table? It is the products and services that

1014
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 10: I put food on my table.

1015
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 5: I guess.

1016
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 7: God, all the other pros of this.

1017
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:41,439
Speaker 5: Here are these.

1018
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 13: Ads and we are back.

1019
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 10: So I wanted to kind of move to talking about

1020
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:59,959
Speaker 10: what's been happening in this sort of Mexican feminis scene

1021
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 10: in in terms of sort of what's what's been going

1022
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 10: on with her since the election of the new Mexican President,

1023
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 10: Claudia Shamebaum, Who's I don't know, like I think a

1024
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:12,279
Speaker 10: lot of Americans, I think the conception of her is

1025
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 10: that she's like significantly further left, and she actually is.

1026
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:18,319
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, like I you know what, I felt so

1027
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 7: much Scott and Freud when like people started talking about

1028
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 7: Kamala like she was gonna end Aparth type and the

1029
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 7: general side, and I was like, how does see it?

1030
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:31,840
Speaker 7: Fucking feel sorry, I'm really angry at every single article

1031
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 7: no one caocked her correctly, like both the far right

1032
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:38,479
Speaker 7: and the left thought she was significantly to the left,

1033
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:42,240
Speaker 7: like everyone said like, oh, finally a feminist Jewish woman,

1034
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 7: and like the Jewish Party is gonna play a part

1035
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:46,799
Speaker 7: because like I do, feel we're gonna see a rise

1036
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 7: in anti Semitism in Mexico, a big one, Like say,

1037
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 7: I feel like a Birther style movement from when Obama

1038
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 7: was elected coming up and it's gonna play again. I

1039
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:01,280
Speaker 7: see Claudie shamebamb She's not just an extension of Amelo

1040
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 7: and she is I would say, not further to the

1041
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 7: left than and there's whatever, but she has less right

1042
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 7: wing things about her, right, It's not like she's better

1043
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:15,840
Speaker 7: than Handload, she's just less worse. She's she because like

1044
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 7: almost like an old Christian guy, like and I do

1045
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 7: mean Christian, Like this is a Catholic country, and Nanload

1046
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 7: is like I think it's he's like Pentecostal or something

1047
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 7: like he's never needed like what his relatives said, but

1048
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 7: he did do like weird right wing things, especially culturally,

1049
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:34,759
Speaker 7: well I mean not everywhere right, Like we got hell

1050
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 7: of militarized, like half our infrastructure is owned by the

1051
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 7: military now, which is like just Jack Carton metoying ourselves

1052
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 7: like for free. And he goes on rants about how

1053
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:50,839
Speaker 7: drugs are caused by valuing video games and like like

1054
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,839
Speaker 7: he like for for a week, try to like say

1055
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 7: we should ban Fortnite. That didn't know anywhere, and I

1056
00:53:56,920 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 7: think it was just because his son didn't stop playing it.

1057
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 7: Maybe he overspent on the family credit card. But like, yeah,

1058
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 7: he's very like he has a very Christian morality, and

1059
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:14,239
Speaker 7: it's a weird fit with Mexicans Catholic one in the

1060
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 7: weirdest way. Like he's very like work Will, like very

1061
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:21,359
Speaker 7: Protestant ethics guy, and people didn't talk about that, and

1062
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:24,640
Speaker 7: now they think Claudia is gonna bring like Jewish ethics.

1063
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 7: And no, she's like just like a Mexican scientist, like professional,

1064
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:32,759
Speaker 7: like she's very much a scientist at least that's her

1065
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:35,959
Speaker 7: self conception and how she operates. And she I think

1066
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 7: a lot of people underestimated her, like they just saw

1067
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 7: her as an appendage of Handlow, like with no real

1068
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:46,759
Speaker 7: political document or skill of herself. She doesn't really have

1069
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,840
Speaker 7: a base of voters. Again, she's like an academic like

1070
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 7: her bass voters are college graduates left lining college garrets,

1071
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 7: but not too left learning because otherwise you'll see like, hey,

1072
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 7: please stop militaries in our country. And yeah, so we

1073
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:06,920
Speaker 7: didn't expect her to to win with like the margins

1074
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:09,839
Speaker 7: that she did. She won with historic margins more both

1075
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 7: than a lookout. It's just she's so fucking shrue. And

1076
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 7: this ties to the TERFs because like four years we

1077
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 7: were really worried because like we thought she was a turf,

1078
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:21,640
Speaker 7: Like we straight up thought she was a turf, even

1079
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 7: though she passed some of the largest like trends positive

1080
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:28,600
Speaker 7: legislations in Mexico City. That was more like momentum from

1081
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 7: Mexico City being like this progressive center of Mexican politics,

1082
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:35,919
Speaker 7: and like I know, I participated in getting that law pass,

1083
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 7: like like she wasn't happy about that. She basically was

1084
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 7: trying to get some Heritage Foundation funded folks to sit

1085
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 7: in a table and like have a big discussion, like

1086
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:50,080
Speaker 7: a very very centristing thing of like let's listen to

1087
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 7: both sides. And it's because she had like some of

1088
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 7: the og TERFs from Mexico, like from some some of

1089
00:55:57,160 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 7: them like that started in the seventies, Like people who

1090
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:02,360
Speaker 7: knew Jenny's raim when she was young were literally in

1091
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:07,000
Speaker 7: Morena structure. Like during twenty twenty, like the women's agenda

1092
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:09,919
Speaker 7: for Morena was set by turfs, by some of the

1093
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 7: the worst turfs, like some of the most internationally well

1094
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:15,760
Speaker 7: connected turfs too, right, and that was a huge problem.

1095
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 7: We managed to push back against that with protests with

1096
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:22,840
Speaker 7: like talking to politicians like not really begging, we just

1097
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:25,279
Speaker 7: you know, that's a nice win do you have there?

1098
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:30,279
Speaker 7: That would be a chief having too. And also that

1099
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:34,239
Speaker 7: by like my collective, like we started focusing on like

1100
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:37,920
Speaker 7: oh god, I don't want to say anymore because like

1101
00:56:38,560 --> 00:56:41,759
Speaker 7: since since Ukraine, like saying, oh, since soul Craine. But

1102
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:46,239
Speaker 7: like we started like investigating and like tracking, like these

1103
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 7: people start showing up in like government positions. That was

1104
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 7: really worrying. Yeah, some of them were like very clearly

1105
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:55,240
Speaker 7: affiliated with the far right, but some of them were

1106
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:59,440
Speaker 7: they came from like union jobs on and she like that,

1107
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 7: or they like they were the anarchists throwing bricks at

1108
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:06,759
Speaker 7: walls like a year ago, and we started seeing them

1109
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 7: get co opted slowly, and we were really scared. But

1110
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 7: then I think we underestimated that Claudia was playing us,

1111
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 7: but she was also playing them, Like she is a

1112
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 7: really shrewd political operator, and she gave TERFs enough to

1113
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 7: get them to do what terms do best, which is

1114
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 7: break up feminist organizing. Yeah, so whatever Cloudy could not

1115
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:32,480
Speaker 7: directly co opt to like get like leaders, there were

1116
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 7: some like black Blocks in Mexico whose leaders like literally

1117
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 7: had in their linkedins that they were like doing like

1118
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 7: black blook shit.

1119
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 5: Oh my god, I know.

1120
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 7: It's incredible, And it just gave everything away because the

1121
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:51,400
Speaker 7: same person who did that had in her LinkedIn like

1122
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:54,600
Speaker 7: a year previously that she was like an eighty for

1123
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 7: a Marina congress woman. Oh my god, and h yeah,

1124
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 7: I think what Marina. They was infiltrate a lot of

1125
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 7: black blocks to neutralize them because during twenty twenty two

1126
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 7: years after Amlo got elected, like Mexican feminists were I

1127
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 7: would say, the biggest fire in social movements in Mexico,

1128
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 7: like with the Sapatistas getting surrounded by state sponsored narco

1129
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:21,400
Speaker 7: cartels and stuff, like they were really paralyzed and with

1130
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:24,919
Speaker 7: COVID and everything like that, like a lot of other

1131
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 7: organizing got real damaged. But feminists were like they were

1132
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:32,120
Speaker 7: trying to get abortion passed, and they succeeded for most

1133
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:36,640
Speaker 7: of it. But like institutional feminists succeeded banning abortion and

1134
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:44,840
Speaker 7: more independent or street anarchists, socialist based feminists, they suddenly

1135
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:49,200
Speaker 7: didn't have anything to demand. So they either got kushi

1136
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:53,560
Speaker 7: government jobs or they got arrested or they helped the

1137
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:58,480
Speaker 7: police arrest people, like by being like clearly just like

1138
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 7: you know the classic like eight people get arrested and

1139
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:03,480
Speaker 7: one of them gets out in like a week and

1140
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 7: it's like ah yeah. And so like feminists got are

1141
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 7: road awakening, and before they were more permissive like cool feminists,

1142
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 7: like real leftists, socialist and queer feminists, were more permissive

1143
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 7: of TERFs during like the twenty sixteen two twenty twenty

1144
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:24,880
Speaker 7: two because they thought, like, we need unity within feminism,

1145
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 7: we need to like get a version passed, we need

1146
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:30,880
Speaker 7: to like combat both the far right and an lost conservatism.

1147
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:34,560
Speaker 7: And well they won and a bunch of their leaders

1148
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:38,320
Speaker 7: got co upted. We have an epidemic of like feminist

1149
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 7: activists passing laws with their names. Like the one movement

1150
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 7: that got defeated the worst is anti car solo feminism.

1151
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:49,560
Speaker 7: Like forget about abolitionism in the carsonal sense. It's no

1152
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:52,040
Speaker 7: one gave a shit about that. Even anarchists were trying

1153
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:56,919
Speaker 7: to pass laws to like lay Olivia to scalp thats

1154
00:59:56,920 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 7: who haven't paid child support, Like they really at everything

1155
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 7: on punitivism. And that's the thing that united like every

1156
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 7: single segment of feminism, including rat friends centers, Like they

1157
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 7: love putting people in jail. It's their whole entire deal.

1158
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:15,920
Speaker 7: And so but the thing is that's the way you

1159
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:18,440
Speaker 7: get you co opt someone, You just tell her okay,

1160
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:22,920
Speaker 7: instead of like being an archopunk like doing tagging government buildings.

1161
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:24,280
Speaker 7: What if I just give you a shit a lot

1162
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:26,160
Speaker 7: of money, and I pay for you to go to

1163
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 7: fancy hotels in every state and like talk about how

1164
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 7: important it is that we throw your X into a

1165
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 7: into a meat processing machine for like breaking up with you. Yeah,

1166
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:43,000
Speaker 7: and I mean I'm being believed, like there's horrible shit,

1167
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:45,959
Speaker 7: like we have to pass a lot to like give

1168
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:48,800
Speaker 7: more time to people who threw acid at women's faces. Right,

1169
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:53,080
Speaker 7: but like that's already legal. It's already legal. I don't

1170
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 7: know if it's gonna work that well, especially because like

1171
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:58,680
Speaker 7: I think one of the most biggest cases of like

1172
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 7: a literal trafficker just got off jail this week and

1173
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:07,480
Speaker 7: he literally tortured one of Mexico's biggest rod fims. And

1174
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 7: it's like, what did it?

1175
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:09,880
Speaker 2: You did?

1176
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:12,560
Speaker 7: Did this all for nothing? Like you're just gonna like

1177
01:01:12,680 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 7: lock up more poor people and like rich assholes are

1178
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 7: gonna work free. Yeah, and so yeah, that was twenty twenty.

1179
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:23,800
Speaker 7: Then it got co opted and just like Claudia gave

1180
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 7: us some loss for trans people, she put turfs in

1181
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 7: government positions. We protested that, and then she dropped them,

1182
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:35,840
Speaker 7: like she really did a andy with Woody, Like I

1183
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:38,240
Speaker 7: don't want to play with you anymore. Like once she

1184
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:42,080
Speaker 7: neutralized the feminist movement, once there were like there was

1185
01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:45,920
Speaker 7: no threat of escalation, she really didn't need the black

1186
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:49,360
Speaker 7: the fake black blocks. She just you know dropped them.

1187
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 10: Yeah, And speaking of fake black blocks, you too could

1188
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:58,280
Speaker 10: buy a fake flack flock from Products and Services.

1189
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:09,800
Speaker 5: And we are back.

1190
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:13,160
Speaker 10: Yeah, So let's get into what's been happening in kind

1191
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 10: of present day. The thing that's really interesting to me

1192
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:20,400
Speaker 10: about like about the way that sort of Mexican turf

1193
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:24,240
Speaker 10: stuff works is that they in a way that's kind

1194
01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:26,120
Speaker 10: of I don't know, American TERFs kind of work like this,

1195
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:29,200
Speaker 10: Like they really function in a very similar way to

1196
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 10: like left social movements, right, except that they're like newer

1197
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 10: world social movement for evil. But it's like like they

1198
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:37,280
Speaker 10: have a lot of the same kind of like strengths

1199
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:41,560
Speaker 10: and weaknesses that that like conventional like social movements have,

1200
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:45,280
Speaker 10: which I think ties into a lot of what's going

1201
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:46,880
Speaker 10: to happen to them and the fact that you can

1202
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 10: you know, and in the same way that you can

1203
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:51,200
Speaker 10: co opt to social movement, like they're also vulnerable to that.

1204
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:53,680
Speaker 7: Yeah. Well, when money dr I saw and like the

1205
01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:57,800
Speaker 7: options are stop organizing as a feminist, Like I cannot

1206
01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 7: tell you how many lesbian services serve are married and pregnant. Now,

1207
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 7: it's like they just dropped that shit like Shaman dropped them,

1208
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:10,520
Speaker 7: like Shama didn't do it of the kindness of her heart.

1209
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 7: I think she realized that this was a vulnerability. She

1210
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:16,760
Speaker 7: needed to convince like the Jacobins of the world that

1211
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:20,960
Speaker 7: she was this socialist president like Amblo but even better

1212
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:24,400
Speaker 7: now in feminist form, and she really couldn't do that

1213
01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:28,600
Speaker 7: if there was like these huge like people who didn't

1214
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:31,479
Speaker 7: even pay attention to Mexican politics but just jk rowling.

1215
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:35,880
Speaker 7: Like this was just a huge vulnerability. She also didn't

1216
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 7: want this mostly to be a debate. I heard rumors

1217
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 7: and I buy them completely, Like that she pushed for

1218
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:45,960
Speaker 7: no treans women being legislators in our congress. Ye, because

1219
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:49,000
Speaker 7: we had we had two before. One of them supped

1220
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 7: ass and the other one was kind of fine, like

1221
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:56,280
Speaker 7: just normal lefty centrist woman. The other one was just horrible.

1222
01:03:56,320 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 7: So it's honestly, I'm going with it.

1223
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:01,720
Speaker 10: Yeah, that's wish you were about to have here. We're like,

1224
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:03,680
Speaker 10: we're gonna get our first traps over a congress but

1225
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:08,360
Speaker 10: she's absolutely dog shit like terrible ziists, Like yeah, now.

1226
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:12,640
Speaker 7: They were night to work with, they consistently. I think

1227
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 7: they were just there to like waste her fucking time,

1228
01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:19,080
Speaker 7: like you would have a meeting with them. It should

1229
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:23,080
Speaker 7: so should we like pass this legislation saying that you

1230
01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:27,160
Speaker 7: can have like no gender on your voter ready, And

1231
01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 7: that took the whole six years Jesus Christ, And I

1232
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:33,000
Speaker 7: didn't even want it, like I haven't even changed my

1233
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:35,800
Speaker 7: legal thing, so like it's not my priority. But it

1234
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:38,480
Speaker 7: was a lot of people's priorities, and they kind of

1235
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:42,880
Speaker 7: wasted our whole community's time. But even that was not enough.

1236
01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:46,400
Speaker 7: I think Chama just didn't want headlines, Like she was

1237
01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:50,160
Speaker 7: content for others, other people to handle the quote unquote debate.

1238
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:52,760
Speaker 7: She didn't want anything to do with it because she

1239
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:56,760
Speaker 7: it only cost her. Like the reason she defended some

1240
01:04:56,920 --> 01:04:59,600
Speaker 7: terms is that some of them were like loyal to her,

1241
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:03,360
Speaker 7: and that's what she wanted. She wanted loyalty because she

1242
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:07,280
Speaker 7: needed party loyalty to like have a tight grip on

1243
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:11,080
Speaker 7: Morena because what she knew she could win pretty easily.

1244
01:05:11,120 --> 01:05:13,800
Speaker 7: She didn't need to appeal to the right or the

1245
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:17,240
Speaker 7: center right and good for her, Like I'm an antil electoralist,

1246
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:20,840
Speaker 7: but like electoralist should not fucking listen to suburban moms,

1247
01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:23,680
Speaker 7: Like who gives a shit? Yeah, going more to the

1248
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 7: left is, to a certain extent, is better electorally. Like

1249
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:30,520
Speaker 7: just look at the numbers between Paris and buy them.

1250
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:33,080
Speaker 7: And it's just vibes. It's not even like real policy,

1251
01:05:33,640 --> 01:05:35,840
Speaker 7: but just the vibes. Like you don't need you don't

1252
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:38,400
Speaker 7: need to listen to pant voters because they're pant voters.

1253
01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:41,520
Speaker 7: They're not gonna vote for Morena. And like the right

1254
01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:44,760
Speaker 7: here in Mexico is really weird because like they have

1255
01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:49,280
Speaker 7: this really like neo liberal view, but their culture is

1256
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:52,720
Speaker 7: so aristocratic. It's kind of like what if them's were

1257
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:57,560
Speaker 7: like very stories, Like because they they hate for people,

1258
01:05:57,720 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 7: not like Republicans hate for people, like because they also

1259
01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:05,240
Speaker 7: pretend to be Panistas, don't They lost half because Shane

1260
01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:08,200
Speaker 7: Bawn really took hold of Morena structure and mobilized it

1261
01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:11,160
Speaker 7: to vote in a way that was unprecedented, even more

1262
01:06:11,200 --> 01:06:14,760
Speaker 7: than Amblos's vote. And because like Panista just couldn't shut

1263
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:17,680
Speaker 7: up about how racist they are. They were just constantly

1264
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:21,640
Speaker 7: saying the most horrible shit about Morena voters. And there

1265
01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:24,720
Speaker 7: were campaigns by saying go vote because they thought that

1266
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:27,360
Speaker 7: like Amlo is like a dictator, because they really think

1267
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:30,120
Speaker 7: that everyone is addicted. Everyone that's to the left of

1268
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 7: Mussolini is a dictator and almost a dictator. So go

1269
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:36,800
Speaker 7: out and vote. They thought, like citizen participation is gonna

1270
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 7: destroy the Amblo regime from We're gonna be back to

1271
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:48,800
Speaker 7: Mexico instead of being not and so. But the thing is,

1272
01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 7: when you send most of the population to vote, they're

1273
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:57,000
Speaker 7: not gonna vote for like the most repugnant, classiest people ever.

1274
01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:00,800
Speaker 7: And the candidate they chose was not a candidate like

1275
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:04,880
Speaker 7: such a Galavis was an indigenous woman. Like they thought

1276
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:08,320
Speaker 7: they were gonna outflank shame and with that, but they

1277
01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:13,040
Speaker 7: didn't like she success such a tool. She's not far right.

1278
01:07:13,640 --> 01:07:15,560
Speaker 7: She used to be in Perade, which was also an

1279
01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:18,680
Speaker 7: um lost party, but she was part of like when

1280
01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:21,160
Speaker 7: when Pang got into power in two thousands, she was

1281
01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:24,880
Speaker 7: the one in charge of the negotiation with the Elene

1282
01:07:25,040 --> 01:07:26,720
Speaker 7: and she betrayed the Sapatistas.

1283
01:07:27,080 --> 01:07:27,840
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ.

1284
01:07:28,120 --> 01:07:31,800
Speaker 7: She was not gonna get an indigenous vote like so

1285
01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:33,800
Speaker 7: this is the first time the right does this right,

1286
01:07:33,960 --> 01:07:36,800
Speaker 7: like Pan did the fucking classic damn thing of like

1287
01:07:37,200 --> 01:07:40,120
Speaker 7: offering a wired down version of the the other candidate,

1288
01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:43,760
Speaker 7: and they lost enormously and a lot of turfs. To

1289
01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:45,439
Speaker 7: get back to the topic, a lot of ters beat

1290
01:07:45,680 --> 01:07:49,120
Speaker 7: on both of them. They were really hedging. They wanted

1291
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:54,120
Speaker 7: to be especially more institutional terms. They said, as long

1292
01:07:54,160 --> 01:07:56,080
Speaker 7: as we get a women president, we're gonna be cool.

1293
01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:56,320
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1294
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:57,640
Speaker 5: That like backfired on them.

1295
01:07:57,920 --> 01:08:00,280
Speaker 7: Yeah, oh yeah, like Shambah, Like I said, what she

1296
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:03,120
Speaker 7: cares about is loyalty. She didn't care about broad fence

1297
01:08:03,160 --> 01:08:06,160
Speaker 7: because she believed in them, just like she didn't care

1298
01:08:06,160 --> 01:08:08,920
Speaker 7: about trans people because she believed in us. She wanted

1299
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:13,400
Speaker 7: loyal like loyal dogs. And if you are hedging your beds,

1300
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:17,240
Speaker 7: yeah you and she wins with sixty percent, you're not

1301
01:08:17,280 --> 01:08:18,960
Speaker 7: going to see a single cent from the arms.

1302
01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:19,240
Speaker 13: Yeah.

1303
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:21,160
Speaker 10: She kind of Okay, this is like, this is an

1304
01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:23,880
Speaker 10: absolutely deranged comparison. But she kind of reminds me of

1305
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:26,559
Speaker 10: jijiin Ping in the way that like the way the

1306
01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:28,920
Speaker 10: way that Chijinping does politics is by.

1307
01:08:29,360 --> 01:08:32,680
Speaker 7: Every single momenta geopolitics, not just fainted. When you say that,

1308
01:08:32,760 --> 01:08:34,280
Speaker 7: she's a lot.

1309
01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:37,759
Speaker 10: Of the same no, because like Chijin Ping's like political

1310
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:40,479
Speaker 10: style is sort of you know, he's been he's been

1311
01:08:40,560 --> 01:08:43,759
Speaker 10: very very good at like like centralizing the bureaucracy around

1312
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:47,000
Speaker 10: him and sort of like neutralizing social movement. And this

1313
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:49,759
Speaker 10: has been a classic like a sort of long range

1314
01:08:50,320 --> 01:08:53,120
Speaker 10: like post culture revolution like Chinese companies party thing of

1315
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:54,679
Speaker 10: like we need to make sure there's not treat movements

1316
01:08:54,720 --> 01:08:57,320
Speaker 10: we need to sort of neutralize. Yeah, it's also amusing,

1317
01:08:57,360 --> 01:08:59,439
Speaker 10: you know, yeah, but it's also like you know, Jiji

1318
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:03,720
Speaker 10: Ping sort of very much is also like a loyalty guy, right,

1319
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:05,880
Speaker 10: He's like, you know, he he will he will sort

1320
01:09:05,880 --> 01:09:08,080
Speaker 10: of set up antic corruption things like per people who

1321
01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:10,040
Speaker 10: are like aren't loyal to him, because that's you know,

1322
01:09:10,120 --> 01:09:12,040
Speaker 10: that's that's the way that this kind of like centralizing

1323
01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:14,680
Speaker 10: politics works, and it's it's church is really interesting that

1324
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:15,680
Speaker 10: like we're seeing.

1325
01:09:15,400 --> 01:09:18,519
Speaker 5: This with we're saying this with the TERFs.

1326
01:09:18,560 --> 01:09:21,360
Speaker 10: Route was like, well, you guys, like I'm sorry, you

1327
01:09:21,400 --> 01:09:24,160
Speaker 10: guys weren't fucking loyal enough. So like each ship you're

1328
01:09:24,200 --> 01:09:27,520
Speaker 10: gonna get get ed corruption campaigned.

1329
01:09:28,320 --> 01:09:31,080
Speaker 7: There's people that we proted that are super close to

1330
01:09:31,120 --> 01:09:34,360
Speaker 7: shameebelnd that we were really scared would get government positions

1331
01:09:34,360 --> 01:09:37,439
Speaker 7: and we're TERFs. They didn't get shipped. There's no like

1332
01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:41,240
Speaker 7: trans legislature, but there's also no terf legislators. Yeah, there's

1333
01:09:41,280 --> 01:09:43,040
Speaker 7: a world where that could have happened that we would

1334
01:09:43,040 --> 01:09:46,439
Speaker 7: have been fucked. I think without our protests, like not

1335
01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:50,320
Speaker 7: just the ones we organized from my collective, the rather

1336
01:09:50,400 --> 01:09:54,040
Speaker 7: decidence that we were focused on some of the closest

1337
01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:57,040
Speaker 7: to Shamebelin but like every transperson knew that like this

1338
01:09:57,280 --> 01:10:00,400
Speaker 7: was something real that and we kind of to stop

1339
01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:03,320
Speaker 7: to it. But and they don't been a stalemate because again,

1340
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:06,840
Speaker 7: what Shimun did was defend her loyal terms and she

1341
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:10,559
Speaker 7: moved them to positions outside of the spotlight honestly more

1342
01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:14,320
Speaker 7: suited to their to their italients. Like her TERFs were

1343
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:17,000
Speaker 7: not really charismatic. She was trying to set them up

1344
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:20,920
Speaker 7: like as influencers and like they just had theirs.

1345
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:24,640
Speaker 10: There's no juice at all, is a classic Jesus, like

1346
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:27,280
Speaker 10: just being the most juiceless motherfuckers and no planet.

1347
01:10:27,240 --> 01:10:32,000
Speaker 7: Absolutely and like really in concuring politics, yeah, because like

1348
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:34,280
Speaker 7: they again they were they were kind of like they're

1349
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:39,679
Speaker 7: more like lefty in discourse. They were very nationalists obviously,

1350
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:42,680
Speaker 7: but also like they were hyping how feminist she was

1351
01:10:42,760 --> 01:10:47,000
Speaker 7: and like, oh, we're gonna confront American imperialism and while

1352
01:10:47,040 --> 01:10:50,960
Speaker 7: at the same time like being obsessed with like British TERFs,

1353
01:10:51,040 --> 01:10:54,719
Speaker 7: so like that it was really contradictory. So Moina calls

1354
01:10:54,800 --> 01:10:59,600
Speaker 7: their movement like the forty the fourth Transformation, which is like,

1355
01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:01,720
Speaker 7: just I won't even get into it. It's just such

1356
01:11:01,720 --> 01:11:02,640
Speaker 7: a fucking bizarre thing.

1357
01:11:03,439 --> 01:11:06,120
Speaker 5: Has a third transformation or something? Was he also doing

1358
01:11:06,160 --> 01:11:07,040
Speaker 5: the fourth Transformation?

1359
01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:11,200
Speaker 7: It's like no, no, it's like the Independence when we

1360
01:11:11,280 --> 01:11:14,400
Speaker 7: kicked Francis ass and then revolution. Those are the three

1361
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:17,720
Speaker 7: and then and then the fourth is him right, like

1362
01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:23,799
Speaker 7: he's saying like I'm I'm Benitaquaras reborn and uh yeah, cringe,

1363
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:26,519
Speaker 7: but like it's stuck. Honestly, I use it because like

1364
01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:29,040
Speaker 7: it's such a good shorthanded because morena is so large,

1365
01:11:29,479 --> 01:11:32,519
Speaker 7: such such a big word, and it's also cringe because

1366
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:39,000
Speaker 7: like morena, which means morena means like brown skin, so

1367
01:11:39,280 --> 01:11:43,320
Speaker 7: and also like becon morena, which is like Mexico's virgin mary,

1368
01:11:44,040 --> 01:11:47,519
Speaker 7: so very creene. Even for quarter is even less cringe.

1369
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:49,840
Speaker 7: So yeah, sure, whatever, but like one of the most

1370
01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:52,639
Speaker 7: famous Mexican Mexican feminists started calling them the Quadra.

1371
01:11:53,120 --> 01:11:56,920
Speaker 10: Oh my god, that stocks it's really I fucking look

1372
01:11:57,000 --> 01:11:57,200
Speaker 10: like it.

1373
01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:00,320
Speaker 7: So that stuck. But basically the quarter there is not

1374
01:12:00,560 --> 01:12:03,080
Speaker 7: out of power. Like the most ambitious ones and the

1375
01:12:03,120 --> 01:12:06,160
Speaker 7: most purely TERFs got quick kicked out, and the loyal

1376
01:12:06,240 --> 01:12:09,080
Speaker 7: dogs got sent to do like other jobs. Like they're

1377
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:12,639
Speaker 7: now talking to academics about like green progressive socialism and shit,

1378
01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:15,960
Speaker 7: Like they're just doing talksing like with like eighty year

1379
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:19,040
Speaker 7: old tenured professors and like that is still real skin.

1380
01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:22,400
Speaker 7: There's we're still watching them. But I think Shimun told them,

1381
01:12:22,479 --> 01:12:24,400
Speaker 7: like I'm gonna protect you, but you need to shut

1382
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:26,719
Speaker 7: the fuck up. You better not say the word rands

1383
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:30,439
Speaker 7: for six years, go go knots afterwards. But you're gonna

1384
01:12:30,439 --> 01:12:33,640
Speaker 7: have a job and you're gonna have a possibility of

1385
01:12:33,680 --> 01:12:36,880
Speaker 7: returning and that I'm not gonna help you. That's on you,

1386
01:12:37,400 --> 01:12:40,160
Speaker 7: and like, honestly, at least that's a fair playing field.

1387
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:41,479
Speaker 7: I'll take it. I'll fucking take it.

1388
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:44,200
Speaker 10: So yeah, I guess like the state of things seems

1389
01:12:44,240 --> 01:12:47,880
Speaker 10: to be that the deal is we're just gonna take

1390
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:51,599
Speaker 10: like trans people as a political issue off the table

1391
01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:54,360
Speaker 10: for Yeah, what I have many years.

1392
01:12:54,439 --> 01:12:57,360
Speaker 7: Well, I think we're we're gonna she's gonna let like

1393
01:12:57,600 --> 01:13:01,800
Speaker 7: states handle it, like a trans law passes in a state.

1394
01:13:02,160 --> 01:13:04,759
Speaker 7: She's gonna let it. And I don't think anti trans

1395
01:13:04,840 --> 01:13:07,479
Speaker 7: laws are gonna have a good time interesting trying to

1396
01:13:07,479 --> 01:13:11,519
Speaker 7: pass because the right age ship. Yeah, they really thought

1397
01:13:11,520 --> 01:13:15,320
Speaker 7: they were gonna at least have a competitive edge, and

1398
01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:18,800
Speaker 7: no one voted. And again like there's a lot of

1399
01:13:18,840 --> 01:13:21,840
Speaker 7: Turfs that were more aligned with the far right, but

1400
01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:25,960
Speaker 7: they were not acting like it. The rhetoric didn't look

1401
01:13:26,240 --> 01:13:28,760
Speaker 7: until a couple of months ago, like the rhetoric that

1402
01:13:28,920 --> 01:13:34,080
Speaker 7: Britain or the US turfs have both types of US

1403
01:13:34,160 --> 01:13:36,639
Speaker 7: turf that I think there's we have every single type

1404
01:13:36,680 --> 01:13:38,439
Speaker 7: of derf here in Mexico. If you can think of

1405
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:41,280
Speaker 7: a type of trf, we have it. I think Britain

1406
01:13:41,360 --> 01:13:44,320
Speaker 7: is mostly wine moms and the US is both angio

1407
01:13:44,439 --> 01:13:48,960
Speaker 7: freaks and like hippie where those like ex anarchists, the

1408
01:13:49,120 --> 01:13:50,840
Speaker 7: brain resistance types right like.

1409
01:13:50,880 --> 01:13:52,840
Speaker 10: Yeah, well I need to draw the light, you're damn it.

1410
01:13:52,960 --> 01:13:55,800
Speaker 10: But the decree resistance people were never anarchists. They were

1411
01:13:55,800 --> 01:13:59,439
Speaker 10: always they were always weird primitivist, but like vague like

1412
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:00,800
Speaker 10: vanguar is primitivists.

1413
01:14:01,360 --> 01:14:05,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, I know. I love that article by Julie who

1414
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:08,360
Speaker 7: accompanied me in less episode about someone fining a hot

1415
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:12,160
Speaker 7: dog and it fucking rules. But yeah, right, like we

1416
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:14,840
Speaker 7: had that, Like we even have like a deep rear

1417
01:14:14,920 --> 01:14:18,120
Speaker 7: system to Mexico thing going on for like a couple

1418
01:14:18,120 --> 01:14:22,519
Speaker 7: of years. So Mexican terms here that align themselves with

1419
01:14:22,600 --> 01:14:25,439
Speaker 7: the far right are gonna see both less resources because

1420
01:14:25,439 --> 01:14:29,160
Speaker 7: the far right is healing some Bruce Eagles, so they're riding,

1421
01:14:29,160 --> 01:14:32,200
Speaker 7: aren't gonna have to go full fascist, which oh.

1422
01:14:32,200 --> 01:14:35,559
Speaker 5: They will, Yeah, many such cases.

1423
01:14:36,320 --> 01:14:39,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, they can no longer get money from like your

1424
01:14:39,439 --> 01:14:45,960
Speaker 7: center right, like respectable democracy people who are basically are

1425
01:14:46,040 --> 01:14:48,960
Speaker 7: just right. They don't they They spend most of their

1426
01:14:48,960 --> 01:14:52,840
Speaker 7: time like just complaining how like Maduro and Amlow and

1427
01:14:53,439 --> 01:14:56,240
Speaker 7: like treating like everyone's the same thing, because the only

1428
01:14:56,280 --> 01:14:59,080
Speaker 7: thing they want is like just they want new liberalism

1429
01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:02,400
Speaker 7: and I'm tired of we have new liberalism. Yeah, like

1430
01:15:02,680 --> 01:15:05,320
Speaker 7: my I is just newly realism with a little bit

1431
01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:09,759
Speaker 7: of just enough like welfare state to like keep everything

1432
01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:12,639
Speaker 7: from blowing up. So yeah, this that's the case here.

1433
01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:15,519
Speaker 7: They ate ship. They don't have money, so they either

1434
01:15:15,520 --> 01:15:18,840
Speaker 7: have to find local fascists with which they have or

1435
01:15:19,479 --> 01:15:23,639
Speaker 7: they have to appeal to Brits with things like the

1436
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:25,000
Speaker 7: boxing scandal.

1437
01:15:25,400 --> 01:15:28,240
Speaker 10: Yeah, and that sort of brings us full circle to like,

1438
01:15:28,280 --> 01:15:31,240
Speaker 10: I guess literally the present day, as in like the

1439
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:35,240
Speaker 10: time this is being recorded, where their big attempts to

1440
01:15:35,439 --> 01:15:38,880
Speaker 10: like generate a bunch of revenue for themselves and like

1441
01:15:39,080 --> 01:15:42,479
Speaker 10: bring themselves back into the spotlight has kind of blown

1442
01:15:42,560 --> 01:15:43,480
Speaker 10: up with their faces.

1443
01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:47,280
Speaker 7: Yeah, and listen. One of the few good parts of

1444
01:15:47,400 --> 01:15:51,720
Speaker 7: like Moderna's co option of feminism is that some previously,

1445
01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:55,200
Speaker 7: like I don't want to say controversial, but like there

1446
01:15:55,200 --> 01:15:58,040
Speaker 7: were really a lot of campaigns to try to remove

1447
01:15:58,080 --> 01:16:03,160
Speaker 7: prestige from any any prominent trans inclusive feminists in Mexico,

1448
01:16:03,640 --> 01:16:08,920
Speaker 7: like Mexican academia and Mexican like high feminism really started

1449
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:12,799
Speaker 7: to go full Wratham in twenty sixteen, and it started

1450
01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:16,880
Speaker 7: by trying to attack any single prestigious feminist that was

1451
01:16:16,960 --> 01:16:20,679
Speaker 7: not a TERRF. Chief amongst them is Marta Lamas, who

1452
01:16:20,960 --> 01:16:25,599
Speaker 7: I love her. She's extremely live, but like I still

1453
01:16:25,640 --> 01:16:28,720
Speaker 7: love her because she she comes from a history of

1454
01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:32,880
Speaker 7: like not quite radical but not quite radical Mexican academia

1455
01:16:32,960 --> 01:16:37,920
Speaker 7: that like says she like reformist in method radical in objectives.

1456
01:16:39,200 --> 01:16:41,440
Speaker 5: Sure, sure, but she at least.

1457
01:16:41,120 --> 01:16:43,640
Speaker 7: Thinks it's true and lives by it. And she is

1458
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:45,920
Speaker 7: if you want to read stuff by her. She has

1459
01:16:46,040 --> 01:16:49,040
Speaker 7: one of the best accounts of the history of sex

1460
01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:52,240
Speaker 7: work in Mexico Food Water and a nache a fantastic book,

1461
01:16:52,360 --> 01:16:53,200
Speaker 7: fully recommended.

1462
01:16:53,520 --> 01:16:55,679
Speaker 5: Yeah, we'll put a link to that in the description.

1463
01:16:56,200 --> 01:16:59,719
Speaker 7: Yeah, so she got into like the mayor of Mexico

1464
01:16:59,760 --> 01:17:03,880
Speaker 7: City is a team. She is now in Clara Brugada's team,

1465
01:17:03,880 --> 01:17:05,920
Speaker 7: and Clara is like the front runner for the next

1466
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:11,640
Speaker 7: presidential candidate. She is not Chamberin's friend. So my suspicion

1467
01:17:11,880 --> 01:17:15,280
Speaker 7: is that Shaman is keeping her terms on reserve to

1468
01:17:15,320 --> 01:17:18,599
Speaker 7: push back against Clara. Oh interesting to find another female

1469
01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:22,439
Speaker 7: candidate and proper up as the feminist successor to Claudia

1470
01:17:23,080 --> 01:17:26,800
Speaker 7: or a male candidate like she needs like feminists on

1471
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:31,160
Speaker 7: her side on reserve to combat like Clara. Who Clara Again,

1472
01:17:31,320 --> 01:17:34,400
Speaker 7: it's further to live than Chamblain and she doesn't come

1473
01:17:34,439 --> 01:17:37,479
Speaker 7: from an academic background. She comes from a grassroots urban

1474
01:17:37,600 --> 01:17:41,679
Speaker 7: movement background in the like thehood of Mexico City, in turn,

1475
01:17:41,960 --> 01:17:47,640
Speaker 7: Brugada needs more institutional and like legit support. And Marta Lamas,

1476
01:17:47,680 --> 01:17:51,080
Speaker 7: while she was controversial because of TERFs smearing her, but

1477
01:17:51,200 --> 01:17:54,200
Speaker 7: she is Marta Fokin Lamas and she is white as hell.

1478
01:17:54,560 --> 01:17:57,479
Speaker 7: So Clara got her in her team and now she

1479
01:17:57,680 --> 01:18:02,240
Speaker 7: gets to be the chief leftist feminists in Mexico because like,

1480
01:18:02,400 --> 01:18:06,400
Speaker 7: if Kaalia starts tucking too much about feminism, well she's

1481
01:18:06,400 --> 01:18:08,920
Speaker 7: a Google search away from like turf scandals.

1482
01:18:09,240 --> 01:18:10,360
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah.

1483
01:18:10,439 --> 01:18:13,920
Speaker 7: And Nata really pushed back against turf influence in Moena,

1484
01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:15,960
Speaker 7: which I'm really frank, like, if you're gonna be co

1485
01:18:16,080 --> 01:18:19,240
Speaker 7: opted this, that's the least amount of like allyship you

1486
01:18:19,280 --> 01:18:19,920
Speaker 7: need to do.

1487
01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:22,800
Speaker 10: All right, Yeah yeah, even push the turfs out from

1488
01:18:22,840 --> 01:18:24,759
Speaker 10: your like fucking mansion.

1489
01:18:25,640 --> 01:18:28,240
Speaker 7: We can push X to the to the left, Well,

1490
01:18:28,280 --> 01:18:33,040
Speaker 7: then do it. I people love saying they want to

1491
01:18:33,040 --> 01:18:35,599
Speaker 7: push politicians to the left, and then don't push push

1492
01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:38,040
Speaker 7: politicians to the left. They just want to lose the

1493
01:18:38,080 --> 01:18:38,799
Speaker 7: critical power.

1494
01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:43,920
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah. Is there anything else that you want to

1495
01:18:43,920 --> 01:18:45,400
Speaker 5: make sure we get you before we wrap up?

1496
01:18:45,720 --> 01:18:50,040
Speaker 7: I think wrapping up to the Readogs magazine. Keep an

1497
01:18:50,040 --> 01:18:54,880
Speaker 7: eye on like those kinds of places that are trying

1498
01:18:54,880 --> 01:18:57,320
Speaker 7: to connect things, because we already saw that this can

1499
01:18:57,320 --> 01:19:00,479
Speaker 7: spill over from Mexico or Brazil or Korea. I think

1500
01:19:00,520 --> 01:19:01,920
Speaker 7: Korea is gonna be bad.

1501
01:19:02,280 --> 01:19:02,759
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1502
01:19:02,880 --> 01:19:06,200
Speaker 10: Yeah, So the thing about Korea I haven't done much about.

1503
01:19:06,520 --> 01:19:08,920
Speaker 10: We probably will at some point cover this stuff in Korea.

1504
01:19:09,240 --> 01:19:12,840
Speaker 10: Korea is having a really really sort of unbelievable sort

1505
01:19:12,840 --> 01:19:16,320
Speaker 10: of anti feminist backlash. But this has also had the

1506
01:19:16,640 --> 01:19:21,479
Speaker 10: impact of like really empowering the rad fems. Yeah, and

1507
01:19:21,960 --> 01:19:25,400
Speaker 10: it's it's a complete catastrophe.

1508
01:19:25,920 --> 01:19:26,600
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1509
01:19:27,120 --> 01:19:31,840
Speaker 7: I would really advise against idealizing feminist movements elsewhere. Yeah,

1510
01:19:32,400 --> 01:19:36,400
Speaker 7: do your research. Don't just accept on face value that

1511
01:19:36,680 --> 01:19:39,519
Speaker 7: like a face you know from a third world country

1512
01:19:39,760 --> 01:19:42,000
Speaker 7: is gonna be like the voice of the Global South.

1513
01:19:42,160 --> 01:19:46,320
Speaker 7: That's just not fucking true. Like, if you hear a

1514
01:19:46,360 --> 01:19:48,840
Speaker 7: face of the Global South, it's probably because there's money

1515
01:19:48,840 --> 01:19:51,880
Speaker 7: behind it. Like, yeah, unless you're really deep and know

1516
01:19:52,000 --> 01:19:54,920
Speaker 7: your shit, the first thing that's gonna show up is

1517
01:19:54,920 --> 01:19:58,519
Speaker 7: gonna have money behind it. So be really careful with

1518
01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:01,959
Speaker 7: other feminist ones. I saw how people idealized Mexican feminism,

1519
01:20:02,400 --> 01:20:06,280
Speaker 7: not knowing just how deeply both infiltrated by the government

1520
01:20:06,439 --> 01:20:10,759
Speaker 7: and paid by fire red groups, and that really backfire,

1521
01:20:10,920 --> 01:20:14,040
Speaker 7: like one of the only survivors of right leaning but

1522
01:20:14,560 --> 01:20:19,080
Speaker 7: left presenting feminists that called Brujazma. Yeah, they're probably the

1523
01:20:19,120 --> 01:20:21,960
Speaker 7: only europe that's going to survive during the shameband presidence.

1524
01:20:22,040 --> 01:20:23,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, big turf group.

1525
01:20:23,400 --> 01:20:26,479
Speaker 7: Yeah, they never tried to get close to Shamba. But

1526
01:20:26,600 --> 01:20:30,160
Speaker 7: also they are they never dropped the mask fully and

1527
01:20:30,200 --> 01:20:32,160
Speaker 7: they're one of the biggest pushers of the name in anything,

1528
01:20:32,920 --> 01:20:36,880
Speaker 7: not the originators. Those are the more internationally connected, but

1529
01:20:36,880 --> 01:20:38,439
Speaker 7: they were the biggest pushers of it. They have the

1530
01:20:38,439 --> 01:20:41,600
Speaker 7: most followers. They really pushon narrative. They were featured in

1531
01:20:41,640 --> 01:20:45,959
Speaker 7: Times one hundred, like AARUSIONDA was Times one hundred from Mexico.

1532
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:50,599
Speaker 7: So be really careful of who you think are supporting. Yeah,

1533
01:20:50,640 --> 01:20:52,639
Speaker 7: because this is going to be happening. I think it's

1534
01:20:52,880 --> 01:20:54,720
Speaker 7: It might be over for now in Mexico and we

1535
01:20:55,200 --> 01:20:57,960
Speaker 7: I think we didn't win, but maybe we can stop

1536
01:20:57,960 --> 01:21:00,280
Speaker 7: them from researching in five years or so, and then

1537
01:21:00,360 --> 01:21:03,000
Speaker 7: I think that would really steal the deal. But this

1538
01:21:03,120 --> 01:21:06,040
Speaker 7: is gonna be happening everywhere where. You're gonna see it

1539
01:21:06,160 --> 01:21:10,439
Speaker 7: a lot in like African feminist movements in South Southeast

1540
01:21:10,479 --> 01:21:12,960
Speaker 7: Asian feminist movements. You're gonna see it pop up all

1541
01:21:12,960 --> 01:21:16,720
Speaker 7: over the world. Take a lesson from Mexico and look

1542
01:21:16,760 --> 01:21:19,800
Speaker 7: for trans folks over there, ask them, Hey, is this

1543
01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:20,360
Speaker 7: person cool?

1544
01:21:20,520 --> 01:21:21,559
Speaker 5: Yeah, just the.

1545
01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:24,880
Speaker 7: Minimum, do the diligence before, like sharing gofundsman ship like

1546
01:21:25,360 --> 01:21:28,280
Speaker 7: a please for the love of God. Again, a dollar

1547
01:21:28,360 --> 01:21:31,240
Speaker 7: goes a long way here. So if feel like you

1548
01:21:31,280 --> 01:21:33,600
Speaker 7: give something that would barely cover rent for someone in

1549
01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:37,960
Speaker 7: the United States, that's enough to set up an organization here. Yeah,

1550
01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:41,960
Speaker 7: and really fuck local politics for years to come. So

1551
01:21:42,360 --> 01:21:43,439
Speaker 7: I don't know, Please be careful.

1552
01:21:44,680 --> 01:21:45,080
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1553
01:21:45,360 --> 01:21:48,280
Speaker 10: So if people want to find you and the stuff

1554
01:21:48,280 --> 01:21:52,320
Speaker 10: that you do that is not ship, where can they

1555
01:21:52,320 --> 01:21:52,680
Speaker 10: find you?

1556
01:21:53,240 --> 01:21:59,720
Speaker 7: Well, I'm on X everything app as a Flores And

1557
01:22:00,360 --> 01:22:03,120
Speaker 7: also I have a podcast called Fatista's Knkrema. It's a

1558
01:22:03,200 --> 01:22:07,200
Speaker 7: really good one in Spanish, trust me. And I'm also

1559
01:22:07,240 --> 01:22:09,160
Speaker 7: trying to launch a project that's gonna be like a

1560
01:22:09,280 --> 01:22:13,280
Speaker 7: sort of media watchdoggy thing. Again, we were working with

1561
01:22:13,400 --> 01:22:17,880
Speaker 7: like sense here, so it's gonna take a while. Yeah,

1562
01:22:18,320 --> 01:22:19,640
Speaker 7: keep an eye out if I don't know, if you

1563
01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:23,519
Speaker 7: if you wanna learn more stuff about Mexican like what's

1564
01:22:23,560 --> 01:22:26,680
Speaker 7: going on beyond, like either far right news like that

1565
01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:29,760
Speaker 7: saw Shambone in a photograph with a transflag and friked out,

1566
01:22:30,240 --> 01:22:33,000
Speaker 7: or just like people who take everything at face value

1567
01:22:33,040 --> 01:22:35,120
Speaker 7: and believe that Chambon is the second coming of Marx.

1568
01:22:35,800 --> 01:22:38,599
Speaker 7: So I don't know, I'll try to keep folks posted

1569
01:22:38,720 --> 01:22:42,120
Speaker 7: because it's complicated, Like, yeah, we it took us an

1570
01:22:42,120 --> 01:22:44,479
Speaker 7: hour to talk about even just one topic.

1571
01:22:45,360 --> 01:22:49,679
Speaker 10: Yeah, things complicated. Who who could possibly have guessed that?

1572
01:22:50,000 --> 01:22:53,120
Speaker 10: You know, it's it's difficult to understand, very comflue to

1573
01:22:53,120 --> 01:22:54,280
Speaker 10: political configurations.

1574
01:22:54,800 --> 01:22:58,400
Speaker 7: Yeah. So yeah, for now I'm only on xicus and

1575
01:22:58,560 --> 01:23:03,120
Speaker 7: YouTube again for I do I stream on Twitch. Honestly,

1576
01:23:03,360 --> 01:23:06,160
Speaker 7: this is gonna sound maybe you're gonna gonna call this,

1577
01:23:06,240 --> 01:23:11,559
Speaker 7: but I really admire y'all, Like I honestly, I both

1578
01:23:11,640 --> 01:23:16,200
Speaker 7: that are a little bit of envy. Uh. I wish

1579
01:23:16,320 --> 01:23:19,000
Speaker 7: there's not a really an ecosystem of like content creation

1580
01:23:19,280 --> 01:23:23,160
Speaker 7: or or news from a leftist perspective here. Like most

1581
01:23:23,200 --> 01:23:25,439
Speaker 7: of the people again, a lot of them also got

1582
01:23:25,439 --> 01:23:28,000
Speaker 7: co opted. A lot of friends I had in like

1583
01:23:28,120 --> 01:23:33,000
Speaker 7: independent leftists publishing and news in Mexico are now like

1584
01:23:33,200 --> 01:23:36,120
Speaker 7: full on like just modern spokespeople, or they went insane

1585
01:23:36,160 --> 01:23:38,360
Speaker 7: and anti vax and like now they're far right.

1586
01:23:38,520 --> 01:23:44,400
Speaker 10: Well, yeah, many such cases. Yeah, so this is to

1587
01:23:44,479 --> 01:23:47,120
Speaker 10: take it out here. You can find us in the places,

1588
01:23:47,200 --> 01:23:50,280
Speaker 10: and until then I defeat your local TERFs.

1589
01:23:50,720 --> 01:23:52,679
Speaker 7: Yeah, and don't become gumnor.

1590
01:24:17,320 --> 01:24:20,400
Speaker 9: Hi everyone, and welcome to the show. It's just James

1591
01:24:20,439 --> 01:24:23,400
Speaker 9: today and I'm joined by doctor Sink. Doctor Sink's an

1592
01:24:23,520 --> 01:24:27,080
Speaker 9: educator based in California, and we're talking today about the

1593
01:24:27,160 --> 01:24:31,559
Speaker 9: recent attempted assassination of a Sikh activist and this now

1594
01:24:31,800 --> 01:24:35,679
Speaker 9: years long tendency of India to attempt to assassinate sick

1595
01:24:35,760 --> 01:24:38,320
Speaker 9: activists in the United States and in Canada and probably

1596
01:24:38,320 --> 01:24:39,120
Speaker 9: not the place is too.

1597
01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:40,920
Speaker 5: Welcome to the show, dot to Sink.

1598
01:24:40,880 --> 01:24:42,479
Speaker 8: All right, thank you, thank you for having me. Yeah,

1599
01:24:42,520 --> 01:24:43,080
Speaker 8: you're welcome.

1600
01:24:43,479 --> 01:24:46,560
Speaker 9: And so I think people listening to this for the

1601
01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:49,839
Speaker 9: first time might not be super familiar with the situation

1602
01:24:49,960 --> 01:24:53,320
Speaker 9: in India and also like what Kalistan is and what

1603
01:24:53,360 --> 01:24:54,840
Speaker 9: that means. So I want to get into both of

1604
01:24:54,880 --> 01:24:58,120
Speaker 9: those things to start with. I think could you maybe

1605
01:24:58,320 --> 01:25:01,640
Speaker 9: explain kalistan, Explain it means. Maybe people have seen this

1606
01:25:01,760 --> 01:25:04,800
Speaker 9: yellow and green flag or heard the word, but they

1607
01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:05,840
Speaker 9: might not know what it means.

1608
01:25:06,320 --> 01:25:07,800
Speaker 5: So could you break that down for US.

1609
01:25:07,760 --> 01:25:11,799
Speaker 8: Sure, sure. So Kalistan is essentially a freedom of liberation

1610
01:25:11,960 --> 01:25:16,839
Speaker 8: movement that starts in Punjab, so it's north of India,

1611
01:25:17,280 --> 01:25:21,240
Speaker 8: and Punjab is a region that is populated primarily of

1612
01:25:21,360 --> 01:25:26,000
Speaker 8: six though the population numbers are changing, and so Kalistan

1613
01:25:26,080 --> 01:25:31,000
Speaker 8: is essentially sovereignty freedom, it's its own homeland, so it's

1614
01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:35,080
Speaker 8: labeled as the Sick Homeland. However, there will be many

1615
01:25:35,120 --> 01:25:39,760
Speaker 8: different ethnicities, many different people of religious backgrounds in Kalaistan,

1616
01:25:39,840 --> 01:25:43,439
Speaker 8: so it is an ongoing movement. The Indian state of course,

1617
01:25:43,439 --> 01:25:45,479
Speaker 8: it's not in their best interest to lose a chunk

1618
01:25:45,520 --> 01:25:48,479
Speaker 8: of land, and to lose especially a prosperous chunk of land,

1619
01:25:48,800 --> 01:25:52,240
Speaker 8: so they're doing everything in their power to silence those

1620
01:25:52,280 --> 01:25:54,599
Speaker 8: that speak about it, to oppress the people there so

1621
01:25:54,640 --> 01:25:57,760
Speaker 8: that they don't have enough willpower to fight back. So

1622
01:25:58,120 --> 01:26:00,840
Speaker 8: that's a very very brief introduction to it.

1623
01:26:01,240 --> 01:26:04,080
Speaker 9: Yeah, so let's zoom out a little bit and talk

1624
01:26:04,120 --> 01:26:06,519
Speaker 9: about the history of sick people in India and then

1625
01:26:06,560 --> 01:26:10,200
Speaker 9: the recent tendency with mody to sort of define Hinduism

1626
01:26:10,240 --> 01:26:12,559
Speaker 9: and Indianism as the same thing. And you can't be

1627
01:26:12,600 --> 01:26:15,240
Speaker 9: one without being the other. So maybe we can start

1628
01:26:15,240 --> 01:26:18,040
Speaker 9: with that history of sick people within India. We can

1629
01:26:18,080 --> 01:26:19,640
Speaker 9: pick it up, like I guess wherever you want. You

1630
01:26:19,640 --> 01:26:22,840
Speaker 9: can start in nineteen thirties, or we can start a

1631
01:26:22,840 --> 01:26:23,439
Speaker 9: little bit later.

1632
01:26:24,240 --> 01:26:27,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, well, actually I think it's important to start even

1633
01:26:27,360 --> 01:26:30,519
Speaker 8: earlier than that. The origins of Six are in the

1634
01:26:30,560 --> 01:26:35,120
Speaker 8: region our faith was started in fourteen sixty nine Gift,

1635
01:26:35,560 --> 01:26:40,000
Speaker 8: which is in now the Pakistan region. So that's where

1636
01:26:40,000 --> 01:26:44,400
Speaker 8: our faith was started, and our people have essentially been

1637
01:26:44,400 --> 01:26:47,840
Speaker 8: fighting an existential battle since the faith was formed. So

1638
01:26:48,360 --> 01:26:53,000
Speaker 8: different rulers of the time, different kingdoms in that area

1639
01:26:53,400 --> 01:26:56,360
Speaker 8: would attempt to kind of wipe Six out, and Six

1640
01:26:56,400 --> 01:26:59,720
Speaker 8: have always been fighting back and fighting for their existence.

1641
01:27:00,200 --> 01:27:03,360
Speaker 8: So a small example of this is in seventeen thirty

1642
01:27:03,400 --> 01:27:07,960
Speaker 8: eight and up until the seventeen seventies, there was mass

1643
01:27:08,240 --> 01:27:11,439
Speaker 8: water of six and we're talking thousands killed on a

1644
01:27:11,479 --> 01:27:15,200
Speaker 8: single day period we referred as the Vudine shot Lugata,

1645
01:27:15,560 --> 01:27:19,760
Speaker 8: which is basically in our history, the largest population of

1646
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:23,479
Speaker 8: six decimated in a single day was in seventeen thirty eight.

1647
01:27:23,520 --> 01:27:26,720
Speaker 8: In seventeen seventies as well, so we went from that

1648
01:27:26,800 --> 01:27:31,240
Speaker 8: circumstance to essentially forming our own kingdom, forming our own

1649
01:27:31,240 --> 01:27:36,280
Speaker 8: country in seventeen ninety nine was formally established under Mahda

1650
01:27:36,360 --> 01:27:40,559
Speaker 8: Dada Djidsing, though the six were operating independently even before

1651
01:27:40,640 --> 01:27:43,439
Speaker 8: that and kind of governing their own regions. But in

1652
01:27:43,479 --> 01:27:46,479
Speaker 8: seventeen ninety nine the Sick Confederacy kind of joined and

1653
01:27:46,600 --> 01:27:50,559
Speaker 8: became what is now known as the region of Punjab.

1654
01:27:51,240 --> 01:27:55,240
Speaker 8: So the British came to colonize. They colonized India relatively

1655
01:27:55,320 --> 01:27:59,240
Speaker 8: quickly after arriving, and then when they approached the Sikh Kingdom,

1656
01:27:59,320 --> 01:28:01,760
Speaker 8: not only could they penetrated, they had to sign a

1657
01:28:01,800 --> 01:28:04,559
Speaker 8: treaty with Mahaa Rdit Singh, who was the ruler of

1658
01:28:04,560 --> 01:28:07,280
Speaker 8: Punjab at the time, and saying that we won't cross

1659
01:28:07,320 --> 01:28:09,360
Speaker 8: to this side of this river and you don't cross.

1660
01:28:09,120 --> 01:28:09,599
Speaker 9: To the seven.

1661
01:28:09,920 --> 01:28:13,000
Speaker 8: So they essentially signed a treaty saying we can coexist,

1662
01:28:13,040 --> 01:28:15,439
Speaker 8: but we won't come to your side because they feared

1663
01:28:15,479 --> 01:28:19,639
Speaker 8: the repercussions of what that would lead to. And then slowly,

1664
01:28:19,960 --> 01:28:24,160
Speaker 8: as they have with many empires, they have kind of infiltrated.

1665
01:28:24,280 --> 01:28:31,200
Speaker 8: They paid folks, they sign traders, and they broke down

1666
01:28:31,200 --> 01:28:35,200
Speaker 8: the annexed Punjab in eighteen forty nine. So we have

1667
01:28:35,280 --> 01:28:39,120
Speaker 8: a period of colonization from eighteen forty nine, officially till

1668
01:28:39,320 --> 01:28:43,040
Speaker 8: nineteen forty seven, and in nineteen forty seven the Radcliffe

1669
01:28:43,080 --> 01:28:47,000
Speaker 8: line is drawn. That is where Pakistan and now what

1670
01:28:47,120 --> 01:28:49,400
Speaker 8: we see as Pakistan and now India is what we

1671
01:28:49,439 --> 01:28:52,559
Speaker 8: see as India, though before it was all together and

1672
01:28:52,600 --> 01:28:56,040
Speaker 8: a large region of it was Punjab. When nineteen forty

1673
01:28:56,080 --> 01:28:59,840
Speaker 8: seven what Indian would refer to as independence, though it

1674
01:28:59,880 --> 01:29:03,320
Speaker 8: was actually a transfer of power. The gandhis of the

1675
01:29:03,400 --> 01:29:07,120
Speaker 8: time are kind of credited with the independence movement, but

1676
01:29:07,320 --> 01:29:10,280
Speaker 8: they were working with the British for decades before that.

1677
01:29:10,680 --> 01:29:13,120
Speaker 8: They kind of knew that they would receive the reins

1678
01:29:13,120 --> 01:29:16,280
Speaker 8: once the British left the region, So truly it wasn't

1679
01:29:16,439 --> 01:29:18,960
Speaker 8: independence movement. It was a transfer of power from the

1680
01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:22,879
Speaker 8: British to them. So in nineteen forty seven, by creating

1681
01:29:23,000 --> 01:29:26,679
Speaker 8: kind of relationships through some false promises, the Hindu leaders

1682
01:29:26,720 --> 01:29:31,120
Speaker 8: of the time essentially guaranteed six that you guys know

1683
01:29:31,200 --> 01:29:33,559
Speaker 8: how to fight for your rights if we were ever

1684
01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:36,200
Speaker 8: to infringe upon them, you guys are allowed to be

1685
01:29:36,280 --> 01:29:39,080
Speaker 8: in the Punjab region, it's essentially going to be autonomous.

1686
01:29:39,320 --> 01:29:44,120
Speaker 8: So after independence, essentially they immediately renagged on all of

1687
01:29:44,160 --> 01:29:48,679
Speaker 8: their previous assurances and six have essentially kind of been

1688
01:29:48,720 --> 01:29:53,120
Speaker 8: fighting an independence movement since nineteen forty seven. They were

1689
01:29:53,160 --> 01:29:56,280
Speaker 8: not allowed to speak their language. There was a Punjabi

1690
01:29:56,280 --> 01:29:59,200
Speaker 8: suba movement in nineteen fifty five where they even had

1691
01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:02,120
Speaker 8: to fight for their native language to be able to

1692
01:30:02,120 --> 01:30:06,519
Speaker 8: speak their native language in their region. And so now

1693
01:30:07,080 --> 01:30:11,679
Speaker 8: moving many iterations later, what we see is Modi kind

1694
01:30:11,720 --> 01:30:14,400
Speaker 8: of the I wouldn't say final form because we haven't

1695
01:30:14,479 --> 01:30:17,799
Speaker 8: lived to the end yet, but he is the latest

1696
01:30:17,840 --> 01:30:22,320
Speaker 8: iteration of Hindu nationalism, of what extremism looks like. So

1697
01:30:23,120 --> 01:30:27,160
Speaker 8: he has now taken the work of the gandhis and

1698
01:30:27,280 --> 01:30:29,519
Speaker 8: all of the prime ministers of India and kind of

1699
01:30:29,520 --> 01:30:32,720
Speaker 8: the Indian deep state agenda and now transformed it to

1700
01:30:32,800 --> 01:30:36,000
Speaker 8: saying that we want to be a nation of one language,

1701
01:30:36,040 --> 01:30:39,000
Speaker 8: of one religion, of one kind of people, and there's

1702
01:30:39,080 --> 01:30:41,599
Speaker 8: really no space for minorities in there, though they won't

1703
01:30:41,640 --> 01:30:45,200
Speaker 8: say it openly because they want to carry the moniker

1704
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:48,280
Speaker 8: of the world's biggest democracy. They are not a secular nation.

1705
01:30:48,760 --> 01:30:53,080
Speaker 8: And under Modi, we've seen massacres. We've seen, you know,

1706
01:30:53,280 --> 01:30:57,920
Speaker 8: very genocidal violence which he himself allowed and which he

1707
01:30:58,120 --> 01:31:01,040
Speaker 8: was not even allowed to go into many Western countries

1708
01:31:01,080 --> 01:31:05,559
Speaker 8: because they held him accountable and responsible for leading the

1709
01:31:05,560 --> 01:31:07,880
Speaker 8: massacre of Muslims in two thousand and two of a job.

1710
01:31:08,200 --> 01:31:11,200
Speaker 8: But once he became Prime minister, they kind of backed

1711
01:31:11,200 --> 01:31:16,639
Speaker 8: away from that stand and chose financial relationships. So today

1712
01:31:16,640 --> 01:31:19,559
Speaker 8: we are in a place where six being less than

1713
01:31:19,560 --> 01:31:23,000
Speaker 8: two percent of the population in India are continuing their

1714
01:31:23,000 --> 01:31:28,320
Speaker 8: struggle for liberation, and the Indian state kind of consistent

1715
01:31:28,360 --> 01:31:31,840
Speaker 8: with their agenda since nineteen forty seven, doesn't have room

1716
01:31:32,040 --> 01:31:34,960
Speaker 8: for that difference, doesn't have room not only to give

1717
01:31:35,000 --> 01:31:38,439
Speaker 8: them their rights, but liberation entirely. That's that's the next

1718
01:31:38,479 --> 01:31:40,839
Speaker 8: step beyond that. So that's where we are today.

1719
01:31:41,280 --> 01:31:44,360
Speaker 9: Yeah, there's a significant Sikh community, especially on the west

1720
01:31:44,400 --> 01:31:48,720
Speaker 9: coast of the USA, and I've met probably hundreds of

1721
01:31:48,760 --> 01:31:52,040
Speaker 9: sick people in the last year crossing the border for

1722
01:31:52,080 --> 01:31:55,519
Speaker 9: the reasons you've just outlined, and others, of course deciding

1723
01:31:55,840 --> 01:31:58,680
Speaker 9: the nearly all coming from India, right and Punjab, and

1724
01:31:59,360 --> 01:32:02,400
Speaker 9: they have told me some really terrible stories, right, some

1725
01:32:02,439 --> 01:32:04,719
Speaker 9: really upsetting things. I've heard from those of other people.

1726
01:32:04,920 --> 01:32:08,880
Speaker 9: It's not unique to them, but there's a significant sick

1727
01:32:09,000 --> 01:32:12,599
Speaker 9: population on the west coast of the US. And Canada too,

1728
01:32:12,680 --> 01:32:15,280
Speaker 9: So can you explain I know that sick people here

1729
01:32:15,280 --> 01:32:17,680
Speaker 9: have been organizing for Kalustan for some time. There was

1730
01:32:17,760 --> 01:32:21,479
Speaker 9: even like a vote recently ventstand correctly, So can you

1731
01:32:21,520 --> 01:32:24,320
Speaker 9: explain like that history of the Sick dy aspirin how

1732
01:32:24,360 --> 01:32:27,960
Speaker 9: they've been really important in getting the word out and advocating.

1733
01:32:28,320 --> 01:32:31,719
Speaker 8: First, Yeah, I'm glad we touched on migration. Actually, mass

1734
01:32:31,720 --> 01:32:34,960
Speaker 8: migration out of Punjab is not a natural phenomenon. It

1735
01:32:35,080 --> 01:32:39,400
Speaker 8: is the outcome of very genocidal violence. Yeah. And further

1736
01:32:39,479 --> 01:32:44,519
Speaker 8: than that, it's the continued violence and oppression through different ways.

1737
01:32:44,720 --> 01:32:48,360
Speaker 8: So one example is there's a strong drug nexus in

1738
01:32:48,360 --> 01:32:52,440
Speaker 8: that area and anyone who is distributing drugs is protected

1739
01:32:52,479 --> 01:32:56,200
Speaker 8: by the Indian state, whether through bribery, whether through their

1740
01:32:56,240 --> 01:32:59,800
Speaker 8: agenda in general of keeping Punjab kind of addicted and

1741
01:33:00,000 --> 01:33:04,200
Speaker 8: away from liberation, So that is one aspect of it. Further,

1742
01:33:04,360 --> 01:33:08,280
Speaker 8: bung Job for the listeners, Bungjob means the land of

1743
01:33:08,320 --> 01:33:12,240
Speaker 8: five rivers, Bunge means five and ob means water, so

1744
01:33:12,720 --> 01:33:17,000
Speaker 8: its name is literally created on river water and the

1745
01:33:17,080 --> 01:33:20,639
Speaker 8: Indian state has now taken those river waters diverted them

1746
01:33:20,680 --> 01:33:24,959
Speaker 8: to different states of India and Punjab gets no royalty

1747
01:33:25,000 --> 01:33:28,120
Speaker 8: for those as opposed to any other state of India.

1748
01:33:28,240 --> 01:33:30,040
Speaker 8: If they have a natural resource, they get to sell

1749
01:33:30,080 --> 01:33:32,720
Speaker 8: it and their state gets the benefit of that. So

1750
01:33:32,800 --> 01:33:36,880
Speaker 8: Punjab at this point has been giving trillions of gallons

1751
01:33:36,920 --> 01:33:41,080
Speaker 8: of water to different states for free, and Punjab is

1752
01:33:41,400 --> 01:33:43,800
Speaker 8: there's different numbers out there, but sixty to sixty five

1753
01:33:43,840 --> 01:33:49,240
Speaker 8: percent and agrarian society, so everyone is essentially farming. And

1754
01:33:50,000 --> 01:33:52,280
Speaker 8: what the farmers of Punjab are being forced to do

1755
01:33:52,400 --> 01:33:57,479
Speaker 8: is dig underground for water, even though they have natural

1756
01:33:57,560 --> 01:34:00,679
Speaker 8: river water that should be going through Punjab itself which

1757
01:34:00,760 --> 01:34:04,639
Speaker 8: they can redistribute. So there's a huge farmer suicide problem

1758
01:34:04,760 --> 01:34:07,720
Speaker 8: happening in Punjab because they are unable to get out

1759
01:34:07,760 --> 01:34:11,639
Speaker 8: of debt. They are viewing farming as an unprofitable kind

1760
01:34:11,640 --> 01:34:14,320
Speaker 8: of a dead end business as opposed to farming in

1761
01:34:14,479 --> 01:34:17,759
Speaker 8: many other places, so it's very profitable. They're sick farmers

1762
01:34:17,760 --> 01:34:21,280
Speaker 8: in California who are multi multimillionaires, so it's not an

1763
01:34:21,360 --> 01:34:24,320
Speaker 8: unprofitable business. However, the state has made it that way

1764
01:34:24,760 --> 01:34:29,160
Speaker 8: understanding that if we can cripple farming their water supply

1765
01:34:29,240 --> 01:34:33,000
Speaker 8: and get their next generation addicted to drugs, then they'll

1766
01:34:33,000 --> 01:34:37,519
Speaker 8: be forced. So the mass migration we see is not natural,

1767
01:34:37,560 --> 01:34:40,360
Speaker 8: it is the outcome of that. And I'm sorry, I

1768
01:34:40,360 --> 01:34:42,400
Speaker 8: think I forgot the second part of your question, something

1769
01:34:42,439 --> 01:34:45,160
Speaker 8: about six in the Western Yeah, No, that's.

1770
01:34:45,080 --> 01:34:47,400
Speaker 9: Okay, there's a really good explanation. It's really important. I

1771
01:34:47,439 --> 01:34:49,599
Speaker 9: think we should just take a little advertising break here,

1772
01:34:59,439 --> 01:35:01,680
Speaker 9: all right. Yeah, So the second part I wanted to

1773
01:35:01,720 --> 01:35:06,280
Speaker 9: ask about was the importance of this diaspora community in

1774
01:35:06,360 --> 01:35:10,280
Speaker 9: organizing for Kalistan. Right because in addition to all these

1775
01:35:10,280 --> 01:35:13,160
Speaker 9: Indian government policies that you've outlined that are having these

1776
01:35:13,200 --> 01:35:16,639
Speaker 9: impacts in Punjab, and like we shouldn't discount the climate

1777
01:35:16,720 --> 01:35:19,479
Speaker 9: change is also having impacts there right, absolutely across the

1778
01:35:19,479 --> 01:35:22,760
Speaker 9: whole indeed subcontinent. But in addition to that, right, there's

1779
01:35:22,800 --> 01:35:26,799
Speaker 9: a very powerful and developed Khalistan movement in the United

1780
01:35:26,800 --> 01:35:29,519
Speaker 9: States and in Canada that has been advocating for the

1781
01:35:29,600 --> 01:35:33,720
Speaker 9: issue and raising i think awareness, and that's what's been

1782
01:35:33,840 --> 01:35:35,120
Speaker 9: targeted now, right.

1783
01:35:35,960 --> 01:35:39,519
Speaker 8: Yeah, absolutely, because they understand that if you say that

1784
01:35:39,560 --> 01:35:43,880
Speaker 8: word Carlostan with in Punjab, the police is working with them,

1785
01:35:44,120 --> 01:35:47,479
Speaker 8: the judicial system is working with them. Every single facet

1786
01:35:47,560 --> 01:35:52,760
Speaker 8: of any organizational institution is working for them. So I mean,

1787
01:35:53,040 --> 01:35:55,200
Speaker 8: there's been many people that do mention it and they

1788
01:35:55,400 --> 01:35:57,960
Speaker 8: end up dead, they end up in jails, They you know,

1789
01:35:58,040 --> 01:36:02,120
Speaker 8: are silenced in one way or another. So despite that, though,

1790
01:36:02,560 --> 01:36:06,000
Speaker 8: still many more folks that believe in Coligistan in Punjab

1791
01:36:06,080 --> 01:36:08,280
Speaker 8: than they are anywhere else in the world, and they

1792
01:36:08,320 --> 01:36:13,200
Speaker 8: are willing to say it openly despite the consequence of that,

1793
01:36:13,240 --> 01:36:17,160
Speaker 8: which is essentially jail or death in the millions. So

1794
01:36:17,760 --> 01:36:22,280
Speaker 8: what happens is when six are a forced to migrate

1795
01:36:22,320 --> 01:36:25,840
Speaker 8: out or migrate out for any reason, they still hold

1796
01:36:25,840 --> 01:36:28,519
Speaker 8: those aspirations with them. They still remember the plight of

1797
01:36:28,560 --> 01:36:32,719
Speaker 8: their people in Punjab. So they have freedom of speech,

1798
01:36:33,120 --> 01:36:36,400
Speaker 8: which is what you should have in democracies, which they

1799
01:36:36,439 --> 01:36:39,439
Speaker 8: don't have in India. So when they have freedom of speech,

1800
01:36:39,479 --> 01:36:43,200
Speaker 8: they express those aspirations to the point where there are

1801
01:36:43,280 --> 01:36:47,320
Speaker 8: people being killed all over the world. We named Canada

1802
01:36:47,360 --> 01:36:50,680
Speaker 8: and the US, but there was an activist poisoned in

1803
01:36:50,720 --> 01:36:54,240
Speaker 8: the UK just last year. There's been folks killed in Pakistan,

1804
01:36:54,280 --> 01:36:56,480
Speaker 8: which is on the other side of the border for India,

1805
01:36:56,640 --> 01:37:00,760
Speaker 8: and they tried to assassinate sick in New York and

1806
01:37:01,000 --> 01:37:03,120
Speaker 8: as recently as a few days ago, they tried to

1807
01:37:03,120 --> 01:37:06,360
Speaker 8: asassinate a stick here in California. So, I mean, the

1808
01:37:06,479 --> 01:37:09,960
Speaker 8: movement is very much alive and it's on the up,

1809
01:37:10,040 --> 01:37:14,439
Speaker 8: and I think the Indian state understands this, but they're

1810
01:37:14,479 --> 01:37:18,599
Speaker 8: having a tough time kind of wrapping their head around

1811
01:37:18,680 --> 01:37:23,280
Speaker 8: how to silence folks outside of their borders. That's really

1812
01:37:23,280 --> 01:37:26,720
Speaker 8: where we are, because within their borders it's full on suppression.

1813
01:37:26,800 --> 01:37:29,719
Speaker 8: You can't say it. Folks within pajob When they leave

1814
01:37:29,800 --> 01:37:33,479
Speaker 8: Punjab and they come to different countries, their eyes kind

1815
01:37:33,479 --> 01:37:36,600
Speaker 8: of finally open as to why they were in the

1816
01:37:36,720 --> 01:37:39,280
Speaker 8: conditions they were in. It's almost like when you're in

1817
01:37:39,280 --> 01:37:40,760
Speaker 8: the middle of a storm. You don't know who you're

1818
01:37:40,800 --> 01:37:42,880
Speaker 8: in a storm, but when looking on the outside in

1819
01:37:43,560 --> 01:37:48,040
Speaker 8: you're seeing, hey, this is a very intentional and systematic

1820
01:37:48,560 --> 01:37:52,120
Speaker 8: genocide that is happening against our people. So that is

1821
01:37:52,160 --> 01:37:55,720
Speaker 8: one aspect of it. But it's becoming more organized, and

1822
01:37:56,320 --> 01:38:00,840
Speaker 8: you know, there's a referendum, there's intellectuals, there's differences happening,

1823
01:38:00,920 --> 01:38:05,040
Speaker 8: there's grats, roots organization and so fix have. The concept

1824
01:38:05,120 --> 01:38:10,600
Speaker 8: called chardvikola and Chardikaala is essentially ever rising spirits, is

1825
01:38:10,640 --> 01:38:14,240
Speaker 8: that no matter the dire conditions that you may be under,

1826
01:38:14,800 --> 01:38:19,000
Speaker 8: you still keep the hope for sovereignty and liberation alive.

1827
01:38:19,120 --> 01:38:22,520
Speaker 8: And we've seen that in our history where our population,

1828
01:38:23,360 --> 01:38:26,600
Speaker 8: due to the oppression and the massacres, dwindled down to

1829
01:38:26,640 --> 01:38:30,040
Speaker 8: the hundreds and they were living in jungles, and even

1830
01:38:30,120 --> 01:38:34,000
Speaker 8: then they would exit the jungles fight work to free

1831
01:38:34,479 --> 01:38:37,920
Speaker 8: those being captured by the muguls at the time, or

1832
01:38:38,000 --> 01:38:41,760
Speaker 8: the people in the region, and they would die fighting oftentimes.

1833
01:38:41,960 --> 01:38:44,479
Speaker 8: And so now we're in a position where there's you know,

1834
01:38:44,560 --> 01:38:48,360
Speaker 8: millions of us. We have no excuse. We keep the

1835
01:38:48,439 --> 01:38:52,200
Speaker 8: aspiration for sovereignty alive, and we see it kind of

1836
01:38:52,280 --> 01:38:56,120
Speaker 8: thriving in places where we're allowed to express ourselves.

1837
01:38:56,520 --> 01:38:58,680
Speaker 9: Yeah, so I think we should talk about this kind

1838
01:38:58,720 --> 01:39:02,400
Speaker 9: of transnational repression. It's not by any means unique to India.

1839
01:39:02,400 --> 01:39:04,800
Speaker 9: I mean, famously Russia loves to do this too, right,

1840
01:39:04,920 --> 01:39:07,080
Speaker 9: But let's talk about some of these incidents. There was

1841
01:39:07,320 --> 01:39:11,040
Speaker 9: a foiled assassination attempt in November of last year, right

1842
01:39:11,040 --> 01:39:15,439
Speaker 9: that the DOJ arrested in India national for There was

1843
01:39:15,560 --> 01:39:20,400
Speaker 9: a successful assassination in Canada, and an attempted assassination just

1844
01:39:20,439 --> 01:39:22,760
Speaker 9: this week, as you say, in northern California.

1845
01:39:23,479 --> 01:39:27,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean transnational repression is not a new phenomenon,

1846
01:39:28,120 --> 01:39:31,760
Speaker 8: But what we'd like to do is actually have it

1847
01:39:31,920 --> 01:39:34,640
Speaker 8: addressed for what it is. Why is it that the

1848
01:39:34,680 --> 01:39:39,400
Speaker 8: American public understands or the Western public understands, that Russia doesn't.

1849
01:39:40,000 --> 01:39:43,280
Speaker 8: But when it comes to India, it's almost seen as

1850
01:39:43,320 --> 01:39:46,759
Speaker 8: this kind of yoga chai te, peace loving place, where

1851
01:39:47,120 --> 01:39:50,760
Speaker 8: in reality, anyone from there and anyone that's been on

1852
01:39:51,360 --> 01:39:55,160
Speaker 8: the other end of kind of oppression understands what India

1853
01:39:55,240 --> 01:39:58,720
Speaker 8: truly is. So I think what we'd like to do is,

1854
01:39:59,320 --> 01:40:02,960
Speaker 8: I don't think it it's unreasonable. This is a nation

1855
01:40:03,160 --> 01:40:07,120
Speaker 8: that is very openly going on to other sovereign nations

1856
01:40:07,240 --> 01:40:12,960
Speaker 8: land and targeting their citizens of any religious background. So

1857
01:40:13,439 --> 01:40:17,080
Speaker 8: I think it's something that these governments should be taking seriously.

1858
01:40:17,479 --> 01:40:20,559
Speaker 8: And the fact that it continues to happen, I think

1859
01:40:20,680 --> 01:40:23,839
Speaker 8: is a reflection of how not seriously it's being taken.

1860
01:40:24,200 --> 01:40:26,280
Speaker 8: If it was, you know, if there's you know, some

1861
01:40:26,320 --> 01:40:29,840
Speaker 8: sort of public statements, sanctions, if there was you know,

1862
01:40:29,880 --> 01:40:31,640
Speaker 8: a full on effort to say that this is a

1863
01:40:31,720 --> 01:40:35,800
Speaker 8: violation of our sovereignty, it would perhaps slow down. But

1864
01:40:35,880 --> 01:40:40,600
Speaker 8: it's continuing, and it's continuing rapidly, where we're seeing gunshots

1865
01:40:40,680 --> 01:40:44,599
Speaker 8: and you know, even though Indian nationals are being extraed

1866
01:40:44,600 --> 01:40:47,800
Speaker 8: added to the States, it's not stopping. So I think

1867
01:40:47,960 --> 01:40:50,559
Speaker 8: more aggressive action is needed, and the fact that it

1868
01:40:50,640 --> 01:40:53,719
Speaker 8: keeps happening is is just a reflection of how lacks

1869
01:40:53,960 --> 01:40:57,800
Speaker 8: these governments have been as a result of these actions.

1870
01:40:58,040 --> 01:41:00,840
Speaker 9: Yeah, you don't see it referred to in the terms

1871
01:41:00,840 --> 01:41:03,760
Speaker 9: of transnational oppression or really like by the US of

1872
01:41:03,760 --> 01:41:07,639
Speaker 9: them at least as this this consolidated program. It seems

1873
01:41:07,680 --> 01:41:09,680
Speaker 9: to be seen as like these incidents where then you know,

1874
01:41:09,760 --> 01:41:11,600
Speaker 9: joining the dots and being like, yeah, this this is

1875
01:41:11,600 --> 01:41:14,360
Speaker 9: an attempt at repression, you know, the murder of US

1876
01:41:14,400 --> 01:41:18,240
Speaker 9: citizens in me these two cases, right, I know this

1877
01:41:18,280 --> 01:41:21,679
Speaker 9: just happened with other diaspora communities sometimes the like DJ

1878
01:41:22,080 --> 01:41:23,920
Speaker 9: or someone within that has reached out to people in

1879
01:41:23,920 --> 01:41:26,720
Speaker 9: the community, especially people who are prominent, and been like,

1880
01:41:27,720 --> 01:41:30,280
Speaker 9: there is a legitimate risk of someone trying to kill you.

1881
01:41:30,560 --> 01:41:32,280
Speaker 9: Has that happened within the sick community?

1882
01:41:33,080 --> 01:41:38,400
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, absolutely. There's been multiple folks warned here in California,

1883
01:41:39,080 --> 01:41:43,200
Speaker 8: in Canada, all over the US that you know, there

1884
01:41:43,320 --> 01:41:46,320
Speaker 8: is legitimate threats to your life. Though it's a problem

1885
01:41:46,360 --> 01:41:50,080
Speaker 8: because they cannot give you any more information than that.

1886
01:41:50,360 --> 01:41:53,040
Speaker 8: So you ask, you know, where is the threat from

1887
01:41:53,160 --> 01:41:56,720
Speaker 8: the say, we can disclose that it's it's confidential. So

1888
01:41:57,720 --> 01:42:01,680
Speaker 8: obviously six who advocate for sovereignty and freedom of their

1889
01:42:01,680 --> 01:42:06,160
Speaker 8: people that can Punjab know where where the threat is from. Yeah,

1890
01:42:06,200 --> 01:42:09,439
Speaker 8: And I think the underlying understanding within the community is

1891
01:42:09,680 --> 01:42:13,920
Speaker 8: that Western countries understand it as well. They're essentially waiting

1892
01:42:14,120 --> 01:42:18,479
Speaker 8: for when it is politically you know, acceptable, when it

1893
01:42:18,560 --> 01:42:22,439
Speaker 8: is politically beneficial for them to actually say something about it.

1894
01:42:22,600 --> 01:42:25,360
Speaker 8: And I think we are an under knowing illusions that

1895
01:42:25,600 --> 01:42:27,280
Speaker 8: you know that these guys are going to speak for

1896
01:42:27,360 --> 01:42:30,120
Speaker 8: us for the sake of justice, that they're going to

1897
01:42:30,160 --> 01:42:34,599
Speaker 8: you know, express our perspective and condemn these nations based

1898
01:42:34,640 --> 01:42:37,640
Speaker 8: on the protection of six. We know our liberation is

1899
01:42:37,680 --> 01:42:41,600
Speaker 8: going to be the result of our efforts. But I

1900
01:42:41,640 --> 01:42:46,600
Speaker 8: think from a lobbying perspective, from an expression perspective, I

1901
01:42:46,600 --> 01:42:50,360
Speaker 8: think it is not unreasonable of us to expect that

1902
01:42:50,560 --> 01:42:52,400
Speaker 8: of governments where we are citizens.

1903
01:42:52,680 --> 01:42:54,840
Speaker 9: Yeah, Like it's kind of the trade that you make

1904
01:42:54,880 --> 01:42:56,960
Speaker 9: grein theory, like you give up a lot of freedom

1905
01:42:56,960 --> 01:42:59,360
Speaker 9: and in turn you get safety in the Yeah, you're

1906
01:42:59,360 --> 01:43:01,400
Speaker 9: giving up one and getting the other right now.

1907
01:43:01,520 --> 01:43:14,000
Speaker 8: Right right exactly. So like there have.

1908
01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:16,160
Speaker 9: Been various movements to Kaliftan, I think we should just

1909
01:43:16,200 --> 01:43:20,400
Speaker 9: mention that like in the nineteen eighties, more like confrontational

1910
01:43:20,479 --> 01:43:24,520
Speaker 9: attempts at Kalistan like independence were met with collective punishment

1911
01:43:24,600 --> 01:43:28,280
Speaker 9: by the Indian state and non Sik people right within India.

1912
01:43:29,080 --> 01:43:31,920
Speaker 8: Yeah. So going dating back to the eighties, actually up

1913
01:43:31,960 --> 01:43:35,800
Speaker 8: until eighty four, there was no United Movement for Independence

1914
01:43:36,080 --> 01:43:38,639
Speaker 8: something else you call uprind On. It was kind of

1915
01:43:39,160 --> 01:43:43,760
Speaker 8: the face of the thick rights movement, but in the

1916
01:43:43,840 --> 01:43:46,120
Speaker 8: document that they had proposed to the government be an

1917
01:43:46,200 --> 01:43:50,280
Speaker 8: unput cyber resolution, it wasn't a proposition for exclusively six

1918
01:43:50,840 --> 01:43:54,320
Speaker 8: And I think that's an important point to continue to mention,

1919
01:43:54,560 --> 01:43:57,800
Speaker 8: is that the way the Indian state portrays Kalistan is

1920
01:43:57,840 --> 01:44:02,280
Speaker 8: anti Hindu, and I think they understand that to get

1921
01:44:02,360 --> 01:44:06,439
Speaker 8: the public support, we need to portray movements or anything

1922
01:44:06,479 --> 01:44:09,080
Speaker 8: really that's not in our interest as anti Hindu. We

1923
01:44:09,120 --> 01:44:11,439
Speaker 8: need to make them feel threatened. Yeah, and if we

1924
01:44:11,520 --> 01:44:14,519
Speaker 8: can do that, there will be support for us to

1925
01:44:14,760 --> 01:44:20,120
Speaker 8: engage in these collective punishments. So in the eighties and nineties,

1926
01:44:20,120 --> 01:44:22,760
Speaker 8: actually we call it the decade of disappearances is where

1927
01:44:22,800 --> 01:44:27,040
Speaker 8: the Indian government went from village to village disappearing six

1928
01:44:27,640 --> 01:44:31,040
Speaker 8: hundreds of thousands. Essentially, our last generation was wiped out

1929
01:44:31,040 --> 01:44:34,160
Speaker 8: by the Indian state and they disposed of their bodies

1930
01:44:34,200 --> 01:44:39,320
Speaker 8: and crematories, throw them in rivers, and you know, like

1931
01:44:39,680 --> 01:44:42,879
Speaker 8: we basically say that there's a sixth river of blood

1932
01:44:43,040 --> 01:44:46,479
Speaker 8: in Bujab because that is just how many young men

1933
01:44:46,560 --> 01:44:49,439
Speaker 8: were killed from eighty five to nineteen ninety five. So

1934
01:44:49,479 --> 01:44:53,479
Speaker 8: there was an armed resistance against this. I mean, they

1935
01:44:53,520 --> 01:44:57,920
Speaker 8: were seeing their sisters taken into police stations and all

1936
01:44:58,000 --> 01:45:01,120
Speaker 8: kinds of atrocities committed against them. They were seeing their

1937
01:45:01,160 --> 01:45:05,200
Speaker 8: brothers disappeared, their you know, their family members. So at

1938
01:45:05,240 --> 01:45:09,240
Speaker 8: some point it is better to give up your life

1939
01:45:09,760 --> 01:45:12,840
Speaker 8: than to live in these circumstances. And so that is

1940
01:45:13,240 --> 01:45:17,120
Speaker 8: the brink that they were pushed to, and so we

1941
01:45:17,280 --> 01:45:20,280
Speaker 8: lean on their example, though the movement does not quite

1942
01:45:20,520 --> 01:45:23,639
Speaker 8: exactly at that same place today, we lean on their

1943
01:45:23,680 --> 01:45:27,320
Speaker 8: example in that saying, these people were willing to give

1944
01:45:27,400 --> 01:45:31,240
Speaker 8: up their lives for this cause, and us sitting in comfort,

1945
01:45:31,680 --> 01:45:35,479
Speaker 8: even if it's you know, temporary safety, we have a

1946
01:45:35,479 --> 01:45:41,000
Speaker 8: responsibility to move this movement forward. And with these new assassinations.

1947
01:45:41,560 --> 01:45:45,559
Speaker 8: That's another important thing to mention. We've saw murders of

1948
01:45:46,280 --> 01:45:53,519
Speaker 8: essentially the biggest Punjabi pops, said Musah in history. I mean,

1949
01:45:53,520 --> 01:45:56,240
Speaker 8: this guy was in Hollywood, he was he was everywhere,

1950
01:45:56,520 --> 01:45:59,839
Speaker 8: and when he started talking about Kadistan, when he started

1951
01:46:00,200 --> 01:46:05,800
Speaker 8: making music regarding Punjab's rights, he was assassinated. And we're

1952
01:46:05,880 --> 01:46:10,400
Speaker 8: seeing a new wave of Indian oppression. And for the

1953
01:46:10,439 --> 01:46:13,960
Speaker 8: first time now people that thought, oh the eighties and nineties,

1954
01:46:14,200 --> 01:46:16,679
Speaker 8: you know, you guys could be making something up. Maybe

1955
01:46:16,680 --> 01:46:19,000
Speaker 8: the Indian government is right, you guys can be cut up.

1956
01:46:19,160 --> 01:46:22,519
Speaker 8: Now they're seeing these assassinations happen in front of their eyes,

1957
01:46:22,680 --> 01:46:25,439
Speaker 8: and they're making the judgment call as to who is

1958
01:46:25,479 --> 01:46:27,080
Speaker 8: in the right and who is in And I think

1959
01:46:27,160 --> 01:46:31,360
Speaker 8: that's another reason that the Kalaistan movement continues to gain

1960
01:46:31,800 --> 01:46:35,559
Speaker 8: kind of solidarity within the six all over the world. Yeah.

1961
01:46:35,640 --> 01:46:38,880
Speaker 9: Sure, Like if if a government is trying to assassinate

1962
01:46:38,880 --> 01:46:41,559
Speaker 9: people to just essentially saying something it disagrees with it,

1963
01:46:41,680 --> 01:46:44,200
Speaker 9: it's not hard to see like who's in the wrong exactly.

1964
01:46:44,560 --> 01:46:48,600
Speaker 9: So I wonder like, obviously there's a genuine threat to

1965
01:46:48,600 --> 01:46:51,640
Speaker 9: seek communities here that continues to be a threat to

1966
01:46:51,640 --> 01:46:56,320
Speaker 9: seek migrants from both political parties in the United States. Right, Yeah,

1967
01:46:56,439 --> 01:46:59,599
Speaker 9: I'm interested, but not hopeful to see how their asylum

1968
01:46:59,600 --> 01:47:03,720
Speaker 9: claims go based on this very obvious discrimination that you've outlined. Yeah,

1969
01:47:04,280 --> 01:47:06,519
Speaker 9: and there's this threat to seek people in their home

1970
01:47:06,600 --> 01:47:09,519
Speaker 9: rwnd in point job, how can people who are not sick,

1971
01:47:09,560 --> 01:47:12,240
Speaker 9: who are not part of the community like be in solidarity?

1972
01:47:12,320 --> 01:47:14,880
Speaker 9: How can they support what can they do to, like

1973
01:47:15,800 --> 01:47:17,719
Speaker 9: I guess yet to stop people being murdered?

1974
01:47:20,439 --> 01:47:26,160
Speaker 8: Well, it sounds cliche to say awareness, but at this

1975
01:47:26,240 --> 01:47:30,920
Speaker 8: point in time, they're just enough people aware of you know,

1976
01:47:31,200 --> 01:47:33,920
Speaker 8: how in danger they are, because if they don't speak

1977
01:47:33,960 --> 01:47:37,240
Speaker 8: for six today tomorrow, it could be them. And if

1978
01:47:37,479 --> 01:47:40,880
Speaker 8: the Western governments are allowing foreign nations to come in

1979
01:47:40,960 --> 01:47:44,519
Speaker 8: and they have embassies in these countries and they're allowing

1980
01:47:44,560 --> 01:47:48,320
Speaker 8: these nations to kind of, you know, assassinate their citizens,

1981
01:47:48,600 --> 01:47:50,320
Speaker 8: then what's to say that they won't be next to

1982
01:47:50,360 --> 01:47:52,599
Speaker 8: Mouth's that age old saying there was no one left

1983
01:47:52,600 --> 01:47:55,160
Speaker 8: to speak for me. That's part of it is you

1984
01:47:55,240 --> 01:47:58,920
Speaker 8: have to understand the ramifications of ignoring something like this.

1985
01:47:59,000 --> 01:48:00,800
Speaker 8: So I guess the first thing we'd like to see

1986
01:48:00,880 --> 01:48:05,400
Speaker 8: is solidarity with that Alistine. Now most folks have an

1987
01:48:05,400 --> 01:48:07,800
Speaker 8: opinion on it, or at least they've heard the word,

1988
01:48:08,200 --> 01:48:11,120
Speaker 8: and they've seen Six everywhere, you know, where the folks

1989
01:48:11,160 --> 01:48:13,200
Speaker 8: that walk around with turbans, and we're one of the

1990
01:48:13,320 --> 01:48:16,280
Speaker 8: probably ninety nine percent of people you see with turbans

1991
01:48:16,320 --> 01:48:21,320
Speaker 8: on our six and so we're a very visible community. However,

1992
01:48:21,800 --> 01:48:26,080
Speaker 8: the reasons we're here, our plight, understanding of our background

1993
01:48:26,160 --> 01:48:30,080
Speaker 8: is generally lacking. So I think the more that we

1994
01:48:30,120 --> 01:48:33,479
Speaker 8: can understand who Six are, what their beliefs are, what

1995
01:48:33,520 --> 01:48:37,519
Speaker 8: they're fighting for, why they're here to begin with, I think,

1996
01:48:38,320 --> 01:48:41,960
Speaker 8: you know, there will be more political pressure regarding that,

1997
01:48:42,360 --> 01:48:45,840
Speaker 8: and I'm seeing it starting to shift slightly, especially in

1998
01:48:45,920 --> 01:48:48,880
Speaker 8: the past five to ten years. We've tipped the skills

1999
01:48:49,080 --> 01:48:52,320
Speaker 8: just slightly, but we're far from from anywhere substantial.

2000
01:48:52,760 --> 01:48:55,840
Speaker 9: Yeah, I think for like, at least for my group

2001
01:48:55,840 --> 01:48:57,680
Speaker 9: of friends, right, we go down to the border and

2002
01:48:57,680 --> 01:49:01,040
Speaker 9: help people, and like we've encountered sick people because they

2003
01:49:01,040 --> 01:49:03,840
Speaker 9: were always there with us helping us, right, Like some

2004
01:49:04,040 --> 01:49:07,360
Speaker 9: sick folks flew down from other places and joined us

2005
01:49:07,360 --> 01:49:09,599
Speaker 9: and stay out there and helped us feed people. And

2006
01:49:09,640 --> 01:49:14,400
Speaker 9: like sick folks have shown up for other people substantially,

2007
01:49:14,439 --> 01:49:16,599
Speaker 9: like all over the world, and I think it would

2008
01:49:16,640 --> 01:49:19,839
Speaker 9: be really good to see people kind of reflect that

2009
01:49:19,680 --> 01:49:22,679
Speaker 9: that solidarity that's kind of baked into the Sick religion

2010
01:49:22,800 --> 01:49:24,960
Speaker 9: that it would be nice to see people doing that

2011
01:49:25,200 --> 01:49:29,240
Speaker 9: in return. Absolutely, as Sikhs organized to their own community safety,

2012
01:49:29,280 --> 01:49:34,080
Speaker 9: like obviously there's like a pressing danger to people, especially

2013
01:49:34,120 --> 01:49:37,479
Speaker 9: people who are vocal, like a Sikhs organized to like

2014
01:49:38,160 --> 01:49:40,160
Speaker 9: take care of one another in that sense.

2015
01:49:40,600 --> 01:49:44,240
Speaker 8: To some extent, yes, And again, a part of organization

2016
01:49:44,560 --> 01:49:48,760
Speaker 8: and having support that comes from that organization is having

2017
01:49:48,760 --> 01:49:54,120
Speaker 8: political power. And Six have political power in certain instances,

2018
01:49:54,200 --> 01:49:57,200
Speaker 8: but they do not have a homeland or the resources

2019
01:49:57,240 --> 01:49:59,720
Speaker 8: to kind of back it up. And you know politics

2020
01:49:59,800 --> 01:50:02,760
Speaker 8: kind of lobbying works with money. So the fact that

2021
01:50:02,800 --> 01:50:05,920
Speaker 8: we have these immigration problems a is a result of

2022
01:50:06,160 --> 01:50:10,080
Speaker 8: India's efforts, but be the reason that they don't have

2023
01:50:10,120 --> 01:50:12,840
Speaker 8: the support they need is because Six don't have a

2024
01:50:12,840 --> 01:50:15,960
Speaker 8: homeland where they can say, all right, these are our beliefs,

2025
01:50:16,080 --> 01:50:18,559
Speaker 8: these are our people. We support our people, we will

2026
01:50:18,600 --> 01:50:21,680
Speaker 8: give them these resources that they need. So we're kind

2027
01:50:21,720 --> 01:50:26,120
Speaker 8: of always operating at a grassroots level, and that's part

2028
01:50:26,160 --> 01:50:30,360
Speaker 8: of the issue, is why there's not grand or large

2029
01:50:30,400 --> 01:50:33,800
Speaker 8: scale change, but it continues to march forward. You know,

2030
01:50:34,160 --> 01:50:37,519
Speaker 8: as generations grow up, as they become more involved in

2031
01:50:37,520 --> 01:50:40,240
Speaker 8: different facets. A lot of people, especially in the United States,

2032
01:50:40,320 --> 01:50:45,280
Speaker 8: are first generation. So our parents' generation was just focused

2033
01:50:45,320 --> 01:50:46,880
Speaker 8: on surviving. How are we going to put food on

2034
01:50:46,920 --> 01:50:48,280
Speaker 8: the table? Are were going to put a roof over

2035
01:50:48,320 --> 01:50:50,519
Speaker 8: your head? And so the next generation kind of has

2036
01:50:50,560 --> 01:50:54,679
Speaker 8: the opportunity to explore how they can make a difference

2037
01:50:54,680 --> 01:50:58,160
Speaker 8: for their people. So Canada is getting there, the UK

2038
01:50:58,320 --> 01:51:00,960
Speaker 8: is getting there, the US is behind, just because our

2039
01:51:00,960 --> 01:51:04,759
Speaker 8: migration here was later than those places to that level,

2040
01:51:05,160 --> 01:51:06,519
Speaker 8: but it's getting there.

2041
01:51:06,720 --> 01:51:09,519
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's good. So people want to find out more

2042
01:51:09,600 --> 01:51:13,519
Speaker 9: about like the sick religion or like sick people are

2043
01:51:13,640 --> 01:51:15,839
Speaker 9: very good resources that you could suggest.

2044
01:51:16,200 --> 01:51:16,439
Speaker 11: Yeah.

2045
01:51:16,479 --> 01:51:19,840
Speaker 8: Absolutely, I think there's a very thorough background of what

2046
01:51:19,960 --> 01:51:23,000
Speaker 8: calist On is. Just on callist on dot org, okay,

2047
01:51:23,080 --> 01:51:27,000
Speaker 8: OKJ L I s t An dot org. They have publications,

2048
01:51:27,400 --> 01:51:30,839
Speaker 8: they have documentaries. They've done a significant amount of work

2049
01:51:31,120 --> 01:51:34,960
Speaker 8: to give the background of a Y six will never

2050
01:51:35,200 --> 01:51:39,360
Speaker 8: stop fighting for freedom and be kind of what the

2051
01:51:39,400 --> 01:51:43,120
Speaker 8: circumstances are today. So they've they've done a fairly good

2052
01:51:43,240 --> 01:51:48,000
Speaker 8: job at that. Other than that, there's pages on social media.

2053
01:51:48,400 --> 01:51:52,519
Speaker 8: There's free five ab which stands for freequin job. It's

2054
01:51:52,600 --> 01:51:56,639
Speaker 8: it's on Twitter, TikTok okay and of course TikTok has

2055
01:51:57,000 --> 01:52:00,599
Speaker 8: deleted that page many times. So where trying to figure

2056
01:52:00,640 --> 01:52:04,320
Speaker 8: out where the alliances are there and Instagram of course

2057
01:52:04,600 --> 01:52:08,559
Speaker 8: has done their thing based on their alliances. But there

2058
01:52:08,600 --> 01:52:11,160
Speaker 8: are some resources out there, and of course if you

2059
01:52:11,280 --> 01:52:13,880
Speaker 8: google it, the first things that are going to come

2060
01:52:13,960 --> 01:52:17,839
Speaker 8: up is Times of India, you know, hindos Tun Times

2061
01:52:18,040 --> 01:52:21,800
Speaker 8: basically saying this is a terrorist movement that's funded by

2062
01:52:22,040 --> 01:52:25,920
Speaker 8: foreign governments to break the unity integrity of India. It's

2063
01:52:25,960 --> 01:52:31,559
Speaker 8: a very rudimentary explanation, basically rooted in violence and how

2064
01:52:31,600 --> 01:52:34,200
Speaker 8: these people just have it out for us. But the

2065
01:52:34,280 --> 01:52:37,479
Speaker 8: reality is entirely different and the facts speak to that,

2066
01:52:37,600 --> 01:52:41,240
Speaker 8: and I think the assassination attempts of today, the folks

2067
01:52:41,240 --> 01:52:44,599
Speaker 8: that remain in Indian jails today, there's a UK citizen

2068
01:52:44,680 --> 01:52:47,519
Speaker 8: in Indian jail. There are you know, folks that are

2069
01:52:47,600 --> 01:52:50,400
Speaker 8: dying in Indian prisons. There's folks that have completed their

2070
01:52:50,439 --> 01:52:54,280
Speaker 8: sentences six thirty plus years still sitting in Indian prisons.

2071
01:52:54,600 --> 01:52:58,479
Speaker 8: So all of the circumstances today kind of speak to

2072
01:52:59,120 --> 01:53:02,400
Speaker 8: why this movement and exists and will continue to exist.

2073
01:53:02,520 --> 01:53:04,760
Speaker 8: So hopefully we can take advantage of some of the

2074
01:53:04,760 --> 01:53:05,679
Speaker 8: resources out there.

2075
01:53:05,920 --> 01:53:08,280
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's great, and I hope people will go and

2076
01:53:08,320 --> 01:53:10,680
Speaker 9: like educate themselves. You can look up caulsa Aid as

2077
01:53:10,720 --> 01:53:14,559
Speaker 9: well if you're interested in like the sort of sortid

2078
01:53:14,560 --> 01:53:17,680
Speaker 9: diarity and support side of Sikhism. Those people have been

2079
01:53:17,680 --> 01:53:19,679
Speaker 9: great at the border, and I know they've done tons

2080
01:53:19,720 --> 01:53:21,559
Speaker 9: about the great humanitarian work as well.

2081
01:53:22,120 --> 01:53:23,240
Speaker 8: Absolutely. Yeah.

2082
01:53:23,360 --> 01:53:25,200
Speaker 9: Is there anything else that you'd like people to know

2083
01:53:25,320 --> 01:53:27,439
Speaker 9: before we finish up here, like about six or about

2084
01:53:27,479 --> 01:53:29,679
Speaker 9: college down things they can do to help.

2085
01:53:30,439 --> 01:53:34,720
Speaker 8: Yeah, I think I would, especially all the viewers. I

2086
01:53:34,720 --> 01:53:37,519
Speaker 8: would like everyone to be open to the opportunity that

2087
01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:42,200
Speaker 8: there are more people in the world that are seeking

2088
01:53:42,240 --> 01:53:45,040
Speaker 8: to suppress and oppress than just what is told by

2089
01:53:45,280 --> 01:53:48,720
Speaker 8: American media today. At least be open to the opportunity.

2090
01:53:49,120 --> 01:53:53,800
Speaker 8: India is the world's biggest democracy today until it's not anymore,

2091
01:53:54,240 --> 01:53:59,920
Speaker 8: and communities like the six who have experienced violent genocide

2092
01:54:00,080 --> 01:54:04,960
Speaker 8: and today are experiencing the genocide. I think it's very

2093
01:54:04,960 --> 01:54:08,960
Speaker 8: important to understand that the sick genocide never ended. It

2094
01:54:09,000 --> 01:54:13,639
Speaker 8: continues today in different facets, in different forms. So that's

2095
01:54:13,720 --> 01:54:18,000
Speaker 8: A and B the struggle for freedom and sovereignty, though

2096
01:54:18,000 --> 01:54:20,880
Speaker 8: they want to put it on. So the Indian state

2097
01:54:20,960 --> 01:54:24,559
Speaker 8: continuously tries to kill two birds with one stone. They

2098
01:54:24,560 --> 01:54:27,640
Speaker 8: have enemity with Pakistan, so they tried to say that

2099
01:54:27,720 --> 01:54:30,600
Speaker 8: Kadistan is a movement to the byproduct of kind of

2100
01:54:30,640 --> 01:54:35,360
Speaker 8: focused on the interference, even though the facts speak otherwise

2101
01:54:35,520 --> 01:54:38,960
Speaker 8: that if it's not Fakistan that killed hundreds of thousands

2102
01:54:38,960 --> 01:54:42,360
Speaker 8: of six, it's not Focuistan that is assassinating six out

2103
01:54:42,400 --> 01:54:45,920
Speaker 8: in these foreign countries. So they try to kill two

2104
01:54:45,960 --> 01:54:49,400
Speaker 8: birds with one stone. India is definitely not a democracy.

2105
01:54:49,440 --> 01:54:51,200
Speaker 8: I would like the viewers to be open to that

2106
01:54:51,280 --> 01:54:54,520
Speaker 8: possibility as well and do your own research. Of course,

2107
01:54:54,800 --> 01:54:58,240
Speaker 8: I have a perspective based on the circumstances that my

2108
01:54:58,320 --> 01:55:02,440
Speaker 8: people have been through, and I would hope everyone can

2109
01:55:02,920 --> 01:55:06,200
Speaker 8: form a more thorough understanding and that there is a

2110
01:55:06,200 --> 01:55:10,880
Speaker 8: lot more happening, especially in that region than is politically

2111
01:55:11,200 --> 01:55:14,560
Speaker 8: correct to say right now. So that's what I'll finish with.

2112
01:55:15,040 --> 01:55:17,240
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's great, thank you very much for that. I

2113
01:55:17,280 --> 01:55:18,960
Speaker 9: think that's a really good place to finish.

2114
01:55:18,960 --> 01:55:19,200
Speaker 8: Thank you.

2115
01:55:19,240 --> 01:55:21,560
Speaker 9: So much for your time, and yeah, I really appreciate

2116
01:55:21,560 --> 01:55:22,480
Speaker 9: you explaining that for.

2117
01:55:22,520 --> 01:55:24,160
Speaker 8: Us, of course. Thank you for having me, gentlemen.

2118
01:55:45,040 --> 01:55:48,080
Speaker 14: Welcome to happen here. I'm Andrew Siege from the YouTube

2119
01:55:48,120 --> 01:55:52,360
Speaker 14: channel Andreism and I'm joined again by James Andrew. Welcome

2120
01:55:52,400 --> 01:55:56,400
Speaker 14: back time to talk about political codes again.

2121
01:55:56,880 --> 01:55:57,960
Speaker 8: Oh good fine.

2122
01:55:58,200 --> 01:56:01,160
Speaker 14: Continuing with the work of Dennis Toura and Tim Wolforth

2123
01:56:01,280 --> 01:56:04,120
Speaker 14: in their book on the Edge Political Cults Left and Right.

2124
01:56:05,120 --> 01:56:09,240
Speaker 14: I've spoken before about the cult recruitment process, the contractory

2125
01:56:09,240 --> 01:56:13,800
Speaker 14: positions held by cult members, ideological totalism, and the commonalities

2126
01:56:13,840 --> 01:56:19,360
Speaker 14: of political cults, including rigid belief systems, immunity to fortification, authoritarianism,

2127
01:56:19,800 --> 01:56:24,720
Speaker 14: arbitrary leadership, verification of leaders, intense activism, and the use

2128
01:56:24,760 --> 01:56:28,560
Speaker 14: of loaded language. And speaking of loaded language. I know

2129
01:56:28,680 --> 01:56:33,280
Speaker 14: that some people don't like the term cult because it is,

2130
01:56:33,480 --> 01:56:37,600
Speaker 14: you know, very charged. I prefer personally. I know that

2131
01:56:37,680 --> 01:56:40,520
Speaker 14: other terms are used, such as high control groups or

2132
01:56:40,880 --> 01:56:46,440
Speaker 14: new religious movements, but I'm sticking to cults. My question

2133
01:56:46,520 --> 01:56:50,480
Speaker 14: for you, James, do you think that you would be

2134
01:56:50,480 --> 01:56:51,560
Speaker 14: susceptible to the cult?

2135
01:56:53,200 --> 01:56:58,760
Speaker 9: One hopes not. We spoke about authoritarian personalities before, and

2136
01:56:58,840 --> 01:57:01,200
Speaker 9: I wonder if there's something similar for people who end

2137
01:57:01,240 --> 01:57:03,680
Speaker 9: up in cults. But I'm sure there's something that could

2138
01:57:03,680 --> 01:57:05,160
Speaker 9: get any of us. You know, we all have our

2139
01:57:05,840 --> 01:57:07,480
Speaker 9: susceptibilities to these things.

2140
01:57:08,280 --> 01:57:10,480
Speaker 2: But I hope it wouldn't be for sure.

2141
01:57:10,960 --> 01:57:14,120
Speaker 14: I mean, one would like to think, you know, yeah,

2142
01:57:14,120 --> 01:57:16,400
Speaker 14: I'm fuilt different than I would form into a cult.

2143
01:57:16,440 --> 01:57:20,920
Speaker 14: But you know, really, especially considering the the paucity of

2144
01:57:21,000 --> 01:57:25,320
Speaker 14: community these days, it's a little wonder that's one of

2145
01:57:25,400 --> 01:57:33,000
Speaker 14: people find a home in such harmful and abusive spaces.

2146
01:57:33,600 --> 01:57:38,720
Speaker 14: So previously I've touched on the LaRouche movements, the Newman tendency,

2147
01:57:39,240 --> 01:57:42,000
Speaker 14: and the United Red Army of Japan, the latter of

2148
01:57:42,040 --> 01:57:46,200
Speaker 14: which ended up killing some people. Today we'll be looking

2149
01:57:46,200 --> 01:57:49,760
Speaker 14: at another case study, not merely as extreme but still

2150
01:57:49,880 --> 01:57:54,960
Speaker 14: quite abusive, this time the infamous Marlene Dixon and her

2151
01:57:54,960 --> 01:57:56,640
Speaker 14: Democratic Workers Party.

2152
01:57:57,400 --> 01:57:59,120
Speaker 8: Fun Times, Fun Times.

2153
01:57:59,160 --> 01:58:02,960
Speaker 14: Indeed, I also got some information on Dixon's activity, not

2154
01:58:03,200 --> 01:58:05,680
Speaker 14: just from on the Edge, but also from the book

2155
01:58:05,760 --> 01:58:10,200
Speaker 14: Bounded Choice, True Believers and Charismatic Cults by Janja Lalich,

2156
01:58:10,680 --> 01:58:13,680
Speaker 14: who was actually a member of Dixon's Democratic Workers Party

2157
01:58:14,000 --> 01:58:16,680
Speaker 14: for ten years. I like that a lot of books

2158
01:58:16,840 --> 01:58:20,320
Speaker 14: written a bold cults are written by former cult numbers.

2159
01:58:20,680 --> 01:58:23,760
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean I think it can be like the

2160
01:58:23,760 --> 01:58:26,480
Speaker 9: point you raised your initial question, right, like everyone likes

2161
01:58:26,480 --> 01:58:28,400
Speaker 9: to think they're specially and not susceptible, And I can

2162
01:58:28,440 --> 01:58:30,480
Speaker 9: see how books written about them could be written from

2163
01:58:30,520 --> 01:58:34,720
Speaker 9: a place of like condescension or you know, other ring.

2164
01:58:34,960 --> 01:58:37,240
Speaker 9: So I think it's always good when folks who have

2165
01:58:37,280 --> 01:58:39,400
Speaker 9: survived these things could write about them.

2166
01:58:39,560 --> 01:58:41,840
Speaker 14: Yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean one of the

2167
01:58:41,840 --> 01:58:44,680
Speaker 14: authors on the Edge, Tim Wore for a few who

2168
01:58:44,720 --> 01:58:48,000
Speaker 14: also part of a Trotskyist cult. So these are people

2169
01:58:48,000 --> 01:58:49,320
Speaker 14: who are speaking from experience.

2170
01:58:50,040 --> 01:58:53,240
Speaker 9: Yeah, I was writing about cults long before I started

2171
01:58:53,240 --> 01:58:55,919
Speaker 9: this podcast, So there was some weird cut like behaviors

2172
01:58:55,920 --> 01:59:00,200
Speaker 9: and endurance sports. And I spoke to an expert. She

2173
01:59:00,440 --> 01:59:03,400
Speaker 9: also was a survivor and introduced me to some other

2174
01:59:03,440 --> 01:59:06,760
Speaker 9: survivors of some more sort of classic left political cults.

2175
01:59:06,800 --> 01:59:10,240
Speaker 9: And like, it wasn't something I ever really felt comfortable

2176
01:59:10,280 --> 01:59:13,920
Speaker 9: like narrating their experiences. I would rather they narrate their experiences.

2177
01:59:14,120 --> 01:59:14,680
Speaker 7: Sure was.

2178
01:59:14,880 --> 01:59:16,840
Speaker 9: It was really interesting to see how many of them

2179
01:59:17,120 --> 01:59:20,120
Speaker 9: were like so willing to write about it and to

2180
01:59:20,160 --> 01:59:22,560
Speaker 9: talk about it and wanted to educate people about it.

2181
01:59:23,120 --> 01:59:25,680
Speaker 14: Yeah, I mean, one of the reasons I'm particularly passionate

2182
01:59:25,680 --> 01:59:30,400
Speaker 14: about political cults is just the way that they sap

2183
01:59:30,720 --> 01:59:35,800
Speaker 14: the energy, the passion, and the drive, the potential of

2184
01:59:36,400 --> 01:59:39,800
Speaker 14: what should be you know, people involved in you know,

2185
01:59:39,880 --> 01:59:43,600
Speaker 14: really positive change, they end up getting sucked in and

2186
01:59:43,640 --> 01:59:47,360
Speaker 14: the energies get sapped by these causes by these leaders.

2187
01:59:47,960 --> 01:59:51,440
Speaker 14: They just sort of diverte their potential trajectory.

2188
01:59:52,360 --> 01:59:52,560
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2189
01:59:52,600 --> 01:59:55,960
Speaker 9: Absolutely, I think anyone who was active in the United

2190
01:59:55,960 --> 01:59:59,560
Speaker 9: States on the left in twenty twenty can attest to

2191
02:00:00,240 --> 02:00:03,120
Speaker 9: the ability of some of these groups to just cut

2192
02:00:03,160 --> 02:00:06,560
Speaker 9: the soul out of a popular movement which was making

2193
02:00:06,560 --> 02:00:08,160
Speaker 9: a positive difference at one point.

2194
02:00:08,520 --> 02:00:13,280
Speaker 14: Right, So let's get into it. Marlene Dixon was born

2195
02:00:13,320 --> 02:00:17,840
Speaker 14: into a family that valued education and intellectual pursuit. From

2196
02:00:17,840 --> 02:00:20,360
Speaker 14: a young age, she was immersed in an environment that

2197
02:00:20,560 --> 02:00:24,200
Speaker 14: fostered deep appreciation for learning and critical thinking, and this

2198
02:00:24,280 --> 02:00:27,720
Speaker 14: foundation significantly influenced her future path set in the stage

2199
02:00:27,720 --> 02:00:32,320
Speaker 14: for her academic and political endeavors. Growing up, Dixon showed

2200
02:00:32,320 --> 02:00:35,280
Speaker 14: an early interest in sociology, a field that would later

2201
02:00:35,360 --> 02:00:39,560
Speaker 14: become her academic and professional focus. She pursued higher education

2202
02:00:39,760 --> 02:00:43,360
Speaker 14: with a passion, earning her undergraduate degree and going on

2203
02:00:43,520 --> 02:00:47,240
Speaker 14: to complete a PhD in sociology in the University of California.

2204
02:00:48,000 --> 02:00:51,080
Speaker 14: The doctoral studies were marked by a rigorous exploration of

2205
02:00:51,120 --> 02:00:55,560
Speaker 14: social structures and equalities. Themes were resonate throughout her career

2206
02:00:56,440 --> 02:01:00,200
Speaker 14: as a sociology professor. Dixon's classroom was more than just

2207
02:01:00,240 --> 02:01:03,360
Speaker 14: a place for academic instruction. It was a forum for

2208
02:01:03,440 --> 02:01:07,240
Speaker 14: radical ideas and critical debate. Her teaching was infused with

2209
02:01:07,280 --> 02:01:12,080
Speaker 14: a strong feminist perspective, challenging traditional notions and encouraging students

2210
02:01:12,080 --> 02:01:16,080
Speaker 14: to question societal norms. This feminist ideology was not just

2211
02:01:16,120 --> 02:01:19,480
Speaker 14: an academic interest, but a driving force behind her activism

2212
02:01:19,720 --> 02:01:23,720
Speaker 14: and the formation of her political beliefs. However, even early

2213
02:01:23,760 --> 02:01:26,680
Speaker 14: on magain and science, that something's a bit of a wry.

2214
02:01:27,800 --> 02:01:30,880
Speaker 14: According to some of her former students and colleagues, it

2215
02:01:30,920 --> 02:01:33,000
Speaker 14: was also Dune those years when she became interested in

2216
02:01:33,080 --> 02:01:37,920
Speaker 14: mass social psychology and group behavior modification. She studied draber J.

2217
02:01:38,000 --> 02:01:43,720
Speaker 14: Lufton's work on thought reform. She studied and admired total communities, accults,

2218
02:01:43,760 --> 02:01:47,720
Speaker 14: and other directed methods of behavioral control such as Alcoholics Anonymous.

2219
02:01:48,360 --> 02:01:51,800
Speaker 14: She believed that these programs provided positive ways to change people.

2220
02:01:52,360 --> 02:01:55,720
Speaker 14: Dixon's early academic career also provided her with a platform

2221
02:01:55,760 --> 02:01:58,400
Speaker 14: to connect with like minded individuals who shared her passion

2222
02:01:58,480 --> 02:02:02,240
Speaker 14: for social justice. These connections were proved crucial as she

2223
02:02:02,320 --> 02:02:05,160
Speaker 14: moved beyond the confines of academia and into the world

2224
02:02:05,200 --> 02:02:08,920
Speaker 14: of radical political activisim Her political awakening came during a

2225
02:02:08,960 --> 02:02:12,680
Speaker 14: time of significant social and political upheaval. The sixties and

2226
02:02:12,680 --> 02:02:16,960
Speaker 14: seventies were decades marked by civil rights movements, anti war protests,

2227
02:02:17,080 --> 02:02:20,480
Speaker 14: and a crowing dissillusion one with the status quo. Dixon

2228
02:02:20,720 --> 02:02:24,640
Speaker 14: was deeply influenced by the principles of Marxism, Leninism and Maoism.

2229
02:02:25,280 --> 02:02:28,400
Speaker 14: Marxism provided her with a free for understanding class struggle

2230
02:02:28,640 --> 02:02:34,280
Speaker 14: and exploitation inherent and capitalist societies. Lenin's organizational principles, particularly

2231
02:02:34,280 --> 02:02:37,040
Speaker 14: the concept of the vanguard party, were also integral to

2232
02:02:37,120 --> 02:02:41,160
Speaker 14: Dixon's political thought. Lenin argued, of course, that a disciplined,

2233
02:02:41,240 --> 02:02:43,960
Speaker 14: centralized party was necessary to lead the wildern.

2234
02:02:43,720 --> 02:02:44,520
Speaker 2: Class to revolution.

2235
02:02:45,200 --> 02:02:48,680
Speaker 14: Dixon adopted this idea wholeheartedly, seeing the need for a

2236
02:02:48,800 --> 02:02:54,800
Speaker 14: tightly controlled, hierarchical organization to con guide the proletaria towards socialism.

2237
02:02:55,160 --> 02:02:58,440
Speaker 14: Mao Sadong's influence on Dixon was particularly evident in her

2238
02:02:58,440 --> 02:03:03,200
Speaker 14: approge to internal party denis. Mao's emphasis on continuous revolution

2239
02:03:03,360 --> 02:03:07,680
Speaker 14: and self criticism as tools for maintaining ideological purity resonated

2240
02:03:07,680 --> 02:03:12,400
Speaker 14: with Dixon. She implemented rigorous criticism and self criticism sessions

2241
02:03:12,720 --> 02:03:15,800
Speaker 14: within her future party, a practice that aimed to eliminate

2242
02:03:15,840 --> 02:03:20,400
Speaker 14: bourgeois tendencies and reinforced commitment to the party's goals. Dixon's

2243
02:03:20,400 --> 02:03:24,879
Speaker 14: political engagement wasn't limited to theoretical discussions. She was actively

2244
02:03:24,920 --> 02:03:29,600
Speaker 14: involved in radical movements, participating in protests and organizing efforts

2245
02:03:29,600 --> 02:03:33,640
Speaker 14: as well to challenge existing power structures. Her activism extended

2246
02:03:33,680 --> 02:03:37,680
Speaker 14: beyond national borders, as she connected with international revolutionary movements

2247
02:03:38,000 --> 02:03:41,840
Speaker 14: and drew inspiration from their struggles. The culmination of these

2248
02:03:41,880 --> 02:03:45,440
Speaker 14: influences and experiences led to the founding of the Democratic

2249
02:03:45,560 --> 02:03:59,480
Speaker 14: Worker's Party in nineteen seventy four. Dixon's vision for the

2250
02:03:59,480 --> 02:04:03,680
Speaker 14: Democratic Worpless Party or DWP was deeply rooted in this

2251
02:04:03,800 --> 02:04:08,800
Speaker 14: idea of Leninist democratic centralism, Maoist self critique, and Marxist

2252
02:04:08,840 --> 02:04:13,040
Speaker 14: anti capitalism. But beyond Marx, Lenin and Mao, the New

2253
02:04:13,080 --> 02:04:16,680
Speaker 14: Communist Movement or NCM played a significant role in shape

2254
02:04:16,720 --> 02:04:20,240
Speaker 14: and Dixon's approach. The NCM was a diverse collection of

2255
02:04:20,280 --> 02:04:22,480
Speaker 14: groups that emerged in the late nineteen sixties and early

2256
02:04:22,560 --> 02:04:26,280
Speaker 14: nineteen seventies advocating for a revitalized communist movement in the

2257
02:04:26,360 --> 02:04:30,120
Speaker 14: United States. The NCM sought to build new Marxist Leninist

2258
02:04:30,200 --> 02:04:33,280
Speaker 14: organizations that could address the shortcomings of the old left

2259
02:04:33,520 --> 02:04:37,600
Speaker 14: and provide a fresh, militant alternative. Dixon was, of course,

2260
02:04:37,680 --> 02:04:41,280
Speaker 14: deeply inspired by the ncm's emphasis on billionaire revolution sharing

2261
02:04:41,360 --> 02:04:46,480
Speaker 14: vanguard and his commitment to rigorous theoretical work and practical activism.

2262
02:04:46,880 --> 02:04:49,160
Speaker 14: At the time, the UP was getting a lot of

2263
02:04:49,200 --> 02:04:51,440
Speaker 14: credit for being one of the few feminist and women

2264
02:04:51,600 --> 02:04:54,920
Speaker 14: led organizations in the new Communist movement, which allowed the

2265
02:04:54,920 --> 02:04:57,800
Speaker 14: group to draw radicals from leftist circles as well as

2266
02:04:57,800 --> 02:05:01,280
Speaker 14: the women's movement and the gay movement. When most NCM

2267
02:05:01,280 --> 02:05:05,200
Speaker 14: groups were virulently a homophobic and dismissive of feminism, the

2268
02:05:05,320 --> 02:05:10,120
Speaker 14: DWP had a unique alert. Early on in her political career,

2269
02:05:10,560 --> 02:05:14,520
Speaker 14: Marline Dixon also contributed theoretically to the DWP with the

2270
02:05:14,640 --> 02:05:18,520
Speaker 14: concept of proletarian feminism, which allowed the DWP to stand

2271
02:05:18,560 --> 02:05:21,800
Speaker 14: up both against class prejudice and sexism and for the

2272
02:05:21,800 --> 02:05:26,960
Speaker 14: equality of all people. Over time, though her concept of

2273
02:05:26,960 --> 02:05:31,600
Speaker 14: proletariy and feminism became less prominent in the DWP's approach

2274
02:05:31,840 --> 02:05:35,760
Speaker 14: and in the literature. In the early stages, the concept

2275
02:05:35,760 --> 02:05:39,680
Speaker 14: of proletary and feminism attracted a lot of people, including

2276
02:05:39,760 --> 02:05:42,400
Speaker 14: jan Jalalich, the author of Bounded Choice, who had been

2277
02:05:42,400 --> 02:05:45,560
Speaker 14: part of the WP. The early days of the WP

2278
02:05:45,720 --> 02:05:48,800
Speaker 14: were marked by a significant effort to recruit and train

2279
02:05:48,920 --> 02:05:52,560
Speaker 14: new members. Dixon and her close associates focused on building

2280
02:05:52,560 --> 02:05:56,360
Speaker 14: a catre of dedicated revolutionaries who were deeply committed to

2281
02:05:56,360 --> 02:05:59,440
Speaker 14: the party schools. These numbers were not just activists, but

2282
02:05:59,440 --> 02:06:03,120
Speaker 14: Addiolodge called soldiers, prepared to dedicate their lives to the

2283
02:06:03,120 --> 02:06:07,200
Speaker 14: cause of socialism. Recruitment often targets had young intellectuals and

2284
02:06:07,240 --> 02:06:12,040
Speaker 14: activists who disillusioned with mainstream politics and eager for radical change.

2285
02:06:12,880 --> 02:06:16,760
Speaker 14: In this early period, the parties organized study groups, protests,

2286
02:06:16,760 --> 02:06:20,960
Speaker 14: and community outreach programs, all aimed at raising political consciousness

2287
02:06:21,040 --> 02:06:25,120
Speaker 14: and building support for the party's revolutionary agenda. Dixon's charisma

2288
02:06:25,240 --> 02:06:29,200
Speaker 14: and intellectual rigor inspired many, but her leadership style also

2289
02:06:29,360 --> 02:06:35,120
Speaker 14: had its challenges. Building on she had very authoritarian tendencies

2290
02:06:35,480 --> 02:06:38,920
Speaker 14: influenced by her admiration for mal Zadan, and it led

2291
02:06:38,960 --> 02:06:44,320
Speaker 14: to a highly controlled and often repressive internal atmosphere. Members

2292
02:06:44,320 --> 02:06:49,400
Speaker 14: were subjugated to rigorous criticism and self criticism sessions, and

2293
02:06:49,480 --> 02:06:53,640
Speaker 14: these sessions could be psychologically taxing, creating an atmosphere of

2294
02:06:53,840 --> 02:06:58,720
Speaker 14: constant scrutiny and pressure. This is exemplary of social psychologist

2295
02:06:58,760 --> 02:07:02,160
Speaker 14: Anthony Prakkanis and Aaronson's seven step guide to creating a

2296
02:07:02,200 --> 02:07:07,200
Speaker 14: political cult, which included crucially maintaining a rigid internal regime.

2297
02:07:07,760 --> 02:07:09,600
Speaker 14: In these early years, we can also see the signs

2298
02:07:09,640 --> 02:07:13,240
Speaker 14: of the other steps, such as creating a distinct social reality,

2299
02:07:13,720 --> 02:07:17,880
Speaker 14: building commitment through dissonance reduction, sending members to proselytize, and

2300
02:07:17,920 --> 02:07:21,440
Speaker 14: fixating members on a promised land, the promised land being,

2301
02:07:21,480 --> 02:07:26,320
Speaker 14: of course, international communism. The DWP crew steadily in its

2302
02:07:26,360 --> 02:07:30,920
Speaker 14: early years. Full time members called cadres or militants typically

2303
02:07:31,000 --> 02:07:33,120
Speaker 14: numbered between one hundred and twenty five and one hundred

2304
02:07:33,120 --> 02:07:35,720
Speaker 14: and fifty people, but in certain periods there were between

2305
02:07:35,760 --> 02:07:39,240
Speaker 14: three hundred and one thousand members at various creative affiliation.

2306
02:07:39,960 --> 02:07:42,760
Speaker 14: One of the d WP's primary areas of focus was

2307
02:07:42,880 --> 02:07:46,480
Speaker 14: labor organizing. Dixon and her colleagues saw the labor movement

2308
02:07:46,480 --> 02:07:49,680
Speaker 14: as a critical battleground for the struggle against capitalism, and

2309
02:07:49,760 --> 02:07:54,440
Speaker 14: they dedicated significant resources to supporting labour strikes, organizing union drives,

2310
02:07:54,480 --> 02:07:58,360
Speaker 14: and advocating for workers' rights. The DWP's members often worked

2311
02:07:58,360 --> 02:08:02,200
Speaker 14: closely with existing labor union providing support and promoting a

2312
02:08:02,240 --> 02:08:06,480
Speaker 14: more radical, class conscious approach labor activism, and this involvement

2313
02:08:06,520 --> 02:08:10,280
Speaker 14: helped party gain credibility and trust among workers, who saw

2314
02:08:10,320 --> 02:08:14,760
Speaker 14: the WP as genuine allies in their struggle. Members were

2315
02:08:14,760 --> 02:08:19,320
Speaker 14: also active in campaigns for affordable housing, health care, and education,

2316
02:08:19,880 --> 02:08:23,560
Speaker 14: working to build coalitions with other progressive organizations and community groups.

2317
02:08:24,600 --> 02:08:28,760
Speaker 14: Political education was another cornerstone of the activities. Dixon believed

2318
02:08:28,760 --> 02:08:32,120
Speaker 14: that a well informed and ideologically grounded membership was essential

2319
02:08:32,160 --> 02:08:35,000
Speaker 14: for the party's success, so they had regular study groups

2320
02:08:35,040 --> 02:08:38,240
Speaker 14: with jobs and lectures and Marxist theory, current events, and

2321
02:08:38,320 --> 02:08:42,200
Speaker 14: revolutionary strategy. And these activities are not limited to members,

2322
02:08:42,280 --> 02:08:46,120
Speaker 14: but were also used as tools for outreach. Eventually, the

2323
02:08:46,200 --> 02:08:49,440
Speaker 14: party's activities extended beyond its initial base in San Francisco

2324
02:08:49,640 --> 02:08:52,880
Speaker 14: and reached other parts of California, even gaining attention on

2325
02:08:52,920 --> 02:08:56,360
Speaker 14: a national scale. Dixon's ability to connect with other radical

2326
02:08:56,400 --> 02:08:59,480
Speaker 14: movements and a strategic vision for the WP's role in

2327
02:08:59,520 --> 02:09:02,360
Speaker 14: the broader of lutionary struggle had played a significant part

2328
02:09:02,640 --> 02:09:07,040
Speaker 14: in this growth, but despite their successes behind the scenes

2329
02:09:07,320 --> 02:09:12,320
Speaker 14: was not too hot, to put it lightly. While Dixon's

2330
02:09:12,360 --> 02:09:15,760
Speaker 14: theoretical acumen and charm had attracted many to her cause,

2331
02:09:16,440 --> 02:09:19,360
Speaker 14: her methods of maintaining control within the party with what

2332
02:09:19,520 --> 02:09:23,360
Speaker 14: gave it its cult connotations. One of the central aspects

2333
02:09:23,360 --> 02:09:26,960
Speaker 14: of Dixon's control was her personal domination over the party

2334
02:09:27,000 --> 02:09:31,320
Speaker 14: and its members. Dixon established herself as the undisputed leader

2335
02:09:31,400 --> 02:09:36,560
Speaker 14: of the EWP, demanding absolute loyalty and obedience. Leylish described

2336
02:09:36,600 --> 02:09:40,120
Speaker 14: her as a large, loud woman who exuded a type

2337
02:09:40,120 --> 02:09:42,560
Speaker 14: of chrisma that could be difficult for outsiders to comprehend.

2338
02:09:43,080 --> 02:09:47,440
Speaker 14: Her personal style was abrasive, and she was stern and domineering. Nonetheless,

2339
02:09:47,640 --> 02:09:50,240
Speaker 14: Dixon was able to exact commitment from her followers, an

2340
02:09:50,400 --> 02:09:54,360
Speaker 14: entailed devotion to her person and undying defense of her

2341
02:09:54,400 --> 02:09:57,960
Speaker 14: actions as their leader. So we see a peculiar and

2342
02:09:58,080 --> 02:10:02,200
Speaker 14: almost quanting resemblance to others the historical movements, like Heaven's Gates.

2343
02:10:02,960 --> 02:10:05,880
Speaker 14: On the surface, they seemed worlds apart. One is steeped

2344
02:10:05,920 --> 02:10:09,800
Speaker 14: in partical idiology, the other in spiritual salvation. But dive

2345
02:10:09,880 --> 02:10:13,240
Speaker 14: deeper and you'll find that the currents beneath their surface

2346
02:10:13,360 --> 02:10:17,839
Speaker 14: flew with striking similarities. Take for instance, the role of charisma.

2347
02:10:18,960 --> 02:10:22,160
Speaker 14: Like Apple White and the Nettles of Heaven's Gate. Dixon

2348
02:10:22,320 --> 02:10:26,400
Speaker 14: used words as her craft, her instrument, speaking to eager audiences,

2349
02:10:26,440 --> 02:10:29,840
Speaker 14: weaving a vision of hope that drew people in. She

2350
02:10:29,960 --> 02:10:33,000
Speaker 14: wasn't just persuede so she was magnetic. She created a

2351
02:10:33,000 --> 02:10:35,880
Speaker 14: myth for herself that seemed to fit with the revolutionary

2352
02:10:35,960 --> 02:10:38,680
Speaker 14: zie guys at the time. Laalish describes that when she

2353
02:10:38,720 --> 02:10:42,080
Speaker 14: first joined the party, Dixon was a tower in presence

2354
02:10:42,520 --> 02:10:46,040
Speaker 14: who created an intense, almost sacred bond with them. LATAs

2355
02:10:46,040 --> 02:10:49,879
Speaker 14: speaks of how the followers were awed by her, desperate

2356
02:10:50,000 --> 02:10:53,000
Speaker 14: to follow her vision, willing to endure her criticism just

2357
02:10:53,000 --> 02:10:56,360
Speaker 14: to stay in her good graces. And when Dick Sun

2358
02:10:56,400 --> 02:11:00,000
Speaker 14: would spend some time away and came back, they would

2359
02:11:00,080 --> 02:11:02,960
Speaker 14: spend long, cruel and meetings where she would dissect every

2360
02:11:03,000 --> 02:11:06,920
Speaker 14: decision they made and criticize everything they did in her absence,

2361
02:11:07,400 --> 02:11:10,000
Speaker 14: showing them all the ways they had fallen short. It

2362
02:11:10,040 --> 02:11:14,080
Speaker 14: was brutal, but it also reinforced her authority over them,

2363
02:11:14,120 --> 02:11:16,720
Speaker 14: as they wanted to get her approval at all times.

2364
02:11:17,480 --> 02:11:21,240
Speaker 14: One of her documents on the development of Leninist democracy

2365
02:11:21,680 --> 02:11:25,480
Speaker 14: told the followers that the leadership was about authority, not popularity,

2366
02:11:26,000 --> 02:11:28,400
Speaker 14: and whether we liked her or not, we had to

2367
02:11:28,440 --> 02:11:31,560
Speaker 14: accept as the ultimate authority in the party. Lachi also

2368
02:11:31,600 --> 02:11:34,360
Speaker 14: says that they were made to believe that being part

2369
02:11:34,360 --> 02:11:38,000
Speaker 14: of the WP was a privilege. Authority wasn't just accepted,

2370
02:11:38,040 --> 02:11:41,040
Speaker 14: it was revered, and this is the foundation of their

2371
02:11:41,080 --> 02:11:44,720
Speaker 14: relationship with Dixon. She was the leader, the guide in force,

2372
02:11:45,160 --> 02:11:48,560
Speaker 14: and they were the followers, committed, obedient, and always seeking

2373
02:11:48,560 --> 02:11:52,600
Speaker 14: her approval. And yet there was a secret at the

2374
02:11:52,600 --> 02:11:56,360
Speaker 14: heart of her. She was a myth maker. Her backstory

2375
02:11:57,080 --> 02:12:00,680
Speaker 14: was curated, embellished to paint herself as a champion of

2376
02:12:00,720 --> 02:12:14,080
Speaker 14: civil rights when the reality was far less dramatic. Systems

2377
02:12:14,120 --> 02:12:17,360
Speaker 14: of control was another area where the DWP and Heaven's

2378
02:12:17,400 --> 02:12:20,920
Speaker 14: Gates shared common ground. Both groups thrived on a mix

2379
02:12:20,960 --> 02:12:25,000
Speaker 14: of carrot and stick promises of a better future, harsh

2380
02:12:25,000 --> 02:12:28,920
Speaker 14: discipline for failure. Leaders would live apart from their followers,

2381
02:12:29,320 --> 02:12:32,760
Speaker 14: hidden away while their followers toiled and sacrificed. Every day

2382
02:12:32,840 --> 02:12:35,840
Speaker 14: was a test, every misstep a reason for criticism, and

2383
02:12:35,960 --> 02:12:39,320
Speaker 14: leaders were never revealing themselves fully. They created a distance.

2384
02:12:39,640 --> 02:12:44,080
Speaker 14: They were heightened their mystique and their authority. In the DWP,

2385
02:12:44,920 --> 02:12:48,480
Speaker 14: there was a very strict hierarchy and chain of command.

2386
02:12:49,080 --> 02:12:51,600
Speaker 14: Dixon was at the top. She had a select few

2387
02:12:51,640 --> 02:12:58,600
Speaker 14: leaders below her, and decisions were made top down. Democratic centralism,

2388
02:12:58,800 --> 02:13:02,960
Speaker 14: which was leninistact like the theoretically allowed for debate and democracy,

2389
02:13:03,840 --> 02:13:08,040
Speaker 14: was really there to enforce obedience. Members were also split

2390
02:13:08,160 --> 02:13:13,320
Speaker 14: into tears. He had trial members, candidate members, and general members.

2391
02:13:13,720 --> 02:13:18,000
Speaker 14: Each level carrier and distinct privileges and obligations. An advancement

2392
02:13:18,440 --> 02:13:21,600
Speaker 14: was up to Dixon. She decided who leveled up in

2393
02:13:21,640 --> 02:13:26,919
Speaker 14: the party. Sanctions for rule violations ranged from increased duties

2394
02:13:26,960 --> 02:13:32,080
Speaker 14: to expulsion, the severest being expulsion with prejudice effectively erase

2395
02:13:32,120 --> 02:13:36,040
Speaker 14: in the individual. From party history and the party's first purge,

2396
02:13:36,360 --> 02:13:41,280
Speaker 14: notably the quote unquote Lesbian Purge, exemplified Dixon's control tactics.

2397
02:13:41,440 --> 02:13:43,880
Speaker 14: As a target had perceived threat within the group and

2398
02:13:43,920 --> 02:13:47,240
Speaker 14: set a precedent for internal purges that instilled fair and

2399
02:13:47,320 --> 02:13:52,200
Speaker 14: loyalty among the members, and then Lastly, there was transcendent belief.

2400
02:13:52,720 --> 02:13:56,240
Speaker 14: Another area where Heaven's Skates and the DWP had common ground.

2401
02:13:56,960 --> 02:13:59,200
Speaker 14: For Heav's Skater was a more transcendent human life to

2402
02:13:59,240 --> 02:14:02,520
Speaker 14: reach a higher plane of existence. For the WP, it

2403
02:14:02,560 --> 02:14:07,120
Speaker 14: was what transforming society reaching utopia through class struggle. The

2404
02:14:07,200 --> 02:14:11,160
Speaker 14: daily life of the WP members was highly regimented. Dixon

2405
02:14:11,200 --> 02:14:15,240
Speaker 14: had strict routines and expectations demanded complete dedication to the

2406
02:14:15,280 --> 02:14:20,280
Speaker 14: party's activities. Members were subjected to intense scrutiny, particularly those

2407
02:14:20,320 --> 02:14:24,320
Speaker 14: of the evil middle class backgrounds, and this method of

2408
02:14:24,320 --> 02:14:27,680
Speaker 14: course effectively suppressed descent and ensured the members remained tightly

2409
02:14:27,720 --> 02:14:32,080
Speaker 14: bound to Dixon's vision. This rerelent their schedule that had

2410
02:14:32,080 --> 02:14:34,400
Speaker 14: them within long hours both in their day jobs and

2411
02:14:34,480 --> 02:14:38,080
Speaker 14: unparty related tasks, led them little time for pursuits or

2412
02:14:38,120 --> 02:14:42,160
Speaker 14: outside relationships, which also helped Dixon maintain control over their lives.

2413
02:14:42,600 --> 02:14:46,600
Speaker 14: By limited members interactions with outsiders, Dixon minimized the risk

2414
02:14:46,680 --> 02:14:51,280
Speaker 14: of external influences undermining her authority, and this isolation extended

2415
02:14:51,320 --> 02:14:54,480
Speaker 14: to live in arrangements as well as members lived communally,

2416
02:14:54,560 --> 02:14:57,480
Speaker 14: which further reinforced their dependence on the party and their

2417
02:14:57,520 --> 02:15:02,240
Speaker 14: separation from mainstream society. The combination of these control mechanisms

2418
02:15:02,240 --> 02:15:05,800
Speaker 14: created a highly controlled and insular environment within the WP,

2419
02:15:06,240 --> 02:15:09,560
Speaker 14: as members were constantly monitored by both Dixon and the

2420
02:15:09,680 --> 02:15:12,520
Speaker 14: other payers to ensure that any deviation from the party

2421
02:15:12,600 --> 02:15:16,000
Speaker 14: line was quickly identified and addressed. The use of fair

2422
02:15:16,240 --> 02:15:20,800
Speaker 14: guilt and psychological manipulation kept members in line. Of course,

2423
02:15:20,800 --> 02:15:23,560
Speaker 14: the control was not just psychological. It was physical, because

2424
02:15:23,560 --> 02:15:25,480
Speaker 14: when you're isolated on your working all the time, your

2425
02:15:25,480 --> 02:15:28,040
Speaker 14: body is going to break down, your exhausted, your burnt out,

2426
02:15:29,040 --> 02:15:32,480
Speaker 14: and the emotional strain of constant criticism doesn't exactly help either.

2427
02:15:33,320 --> 02:15:36,720
Speaker 14: But all of this were to keep party members in

2428
02:15:36,800 --> 02:15:41,280
Speaker 14: their place. The contriversies surrounding the WP's methods and leadership

2429
02:15:41,280 --> 02:15:44,760
Speaker 14: eventually drew attention from both within the leftist movement and

2430
02:15:44,800 --> 02:15:49,320
Speaker 14: from external observers. Critics argue that Dixon's authoritarianism when the

2431
02:15:49,360 --> 02:15:52,640
Speaker 14: parties cut like practices were antithetical to the principles of

2432
02:15:52,640 --> 02:15:57,080
Speaker 14: socialism and genuine revolutionary activity, but these criticisms did little

2433
02:15:57,080 --> 02:15:59,400
Speaker 14: to all to the internal dynamics of the WP during

2434
02:15:59,400 --> 02:16:02,440
Speaker 14: its peak. In the early days, Dixon and her followers

2435
02:16:02,440 --> 02:16:05,960
Speaker 14: truly believed her revolution was just around the corner. By

2436
02:16:06,040 --> 02:16:10,200
Speaker 14: the nineteen eighties, recruitment was faltering, purges was narrow in

2437
02:16:10,240 --> 02:16:14,080
Speaker 14: the organization's focus. At the WP's aggressive tactics had led

2438
02:16:14,120 --> 02:16:19,520
Speaker 14: to conflict. Without the leftist groups, Dixon had grown dissolution.

2439
02:16:20,760 --> 02:16:22,680
Speaker 14: She had begun to see the local struggles they were

2440
02:16:22,680 --> 02:16:27,360
Speaker 14: taking part in as insignificant as mere reformist gestures. She

2441
02:16:27,440 --> 02:16:30,600
Speaker 14: moved the party from distributing a local newspaper to publishing

2442
02:16:30,720 --> 02:16:35,200
Speaker 14: dense academic journals. She developed a stain for world systems theory,

2443
02:16:35,280 --> 02:16:37,720
Speaker 14: which had once been a guiding light in her movement,

2444
02:16:38,560 --> 02:16:43,440
Speaker 14: and rejected it as anti socialist and cynical. In her eyes,

2445
02:16:43,959 --> 02:16:46,680
Speaker 14: the United States working class was no longer a beacon

2446
02:16:46,720 --> 02:16:50,400
Speaker 14: for revolution. Instead, she placed her faith in the USSR

2447
02:16:50,800 --> 02:16:53,440
Speaker 14: in Eastern Europe, in distant lands where she believed the

2448
02:16:53,440 --> 02:16:57,080
Speaker 14: future of socialism lay. Her frequent travels to conferences in

2449
02:16:57,120 --> 02:17:01,080
Speaker 14: Europe and her focus on theoretical debates needed her members,

2450
02:17:01,280 --> 02:17:03,039
Speaker 14: as the heart of their struggle had been replaced with

2451
02:17:03,040 --> 02:17:06,039
Speaker 14: her distant, abstract vision that none of them could grasp.

2452
02:17:06,800 --> 02:17:09,840
Speaker 14: But the real breaking point came with her change and strategies.

2453
02:17:10,480 --> 02:17:13,520
Speaker 14: Dixon began to see the Petibo Rossi as potential allies

2454
02:17:13,600 --> 02:17:16,480
Speaker 14: instead of enemies, as they had always been. A radical

2455
02:17:16,520 --> 02:17:19,800
Speaker 14: shit from ideology that her party had been taught beyond

2456
02:17:19,840 --> 02:17:23,320
Speaker 14: all that her drinking had become more uncontrolled than usual,

2457
02:17:23,640 --> 02:17:26,680
Speaker 14: and her abuse of the members had increased. So in

2458
02:17:26,720 --> 02:17:29,520
Speaker 14: late nineteen eighty five, a few of her members decided

2459
02:17:29,560 --> 02:17:32,880
Speaker 14: that enough was enough. While Dixon was away on one

2460
02:17:32,879 --> 02:17:36,640
Speaker 14: of her many trips, they gathered in secret, shared their frustrations,

2461
02:17:36,760 --> 02:17:38,760
Speaker 14: and they'd bear the truth over what had become of

2462
02:17:38,800 --> 02:17:42,080
Speaker 14: the party. When Dixon returned, she was met with the

2463
02:17:42,120 --> 02:17:45,199
Speaker 14: harshest reality of war. They told her that the party

2464
02:17:45,320 --> 02:17:47,760
Speaker 14: was over, that she was expelled, and that they were

2465
02:17:47,760 --> 02:17:51,280
Speaker 14: dissolving the party. Her reaction was, of course, a mix

2466
02:17:51,320 --> 02:17:54,600
Speaker 14: of disbelief and anger, and a final bit of confrontation

2467
02:17:54,680 --> 02:17:58,680
Speaker 14: with the collapse of everything she had built. Afterwards, there

2468
02:17:58,800 --> 02:18:02,200
Speaker 14: was of course a mesteric The members have an endured

2469
02:18:02,200 --> 02:18:06,039
Speaker 14: abuse for so long, including financial abuse, took it upon

2470
02:18:06,080 --> 02:18:09,320
Speaker 14: themselves to divide the assets amongst themselves as a final

2471
02:18:09,440 --> 02:18:13,200
Speaker 14: small compensation for the years they had given. Each person

2472
02:18:13,240 --> 02:18:17,160
Speaker 14: received a poetry sum, a fraction of what they had invested.

2473
02:18:17,600 --> 02:18:22,280
Speaker 14: But at last, the party's ideological crises weekend leadership and

2474
02:18:22,400 --> 02:18:27,240
Speaker 14: internal strife resulted in the organization's dissolution. The party was

2475
02:18:27,280 --> 02:18:29,800
Speaker 14: indeed over, and they could start their life on you.

2476
02:18:32,400 --> 02:18:32,640
Speaker 8: Hey.

2477
02:18:32,720 --> 02:18:35,840
Speaker 2: We'll be back Monday, with more episodes every week from

2478
02:18:35,840 --> 02:18:37,560
Speaker 2: now until the heat death of the Universe.

2479
02:18:38,320 --> 02:18:40,840
Speaker 6: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.

2480
02:18:40,920 --> 02:18:43,560
Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

2481
02:18:43,600 --> 02:18:45,840
Speaker 3: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

2482
02:18:45,879 --> 02:18:49,480
Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

2483
02:18:49,879 --> 02:18:52,000
Speaker 3: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

2484
02:18:52,080 --> 02:18:55,160
Speaker 3: monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources.

2485
02:18:55,280 --> 02:18:56,119
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.