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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff Mom never told you?

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Speaker 1: From how Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline And on May

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Speaker 1: two thousand twelve, the second annual slut Walk Toronto is

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Speaker 1: taking place, and we're talking about slut walks, and for

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Speaker 1: I guess warning for those about to listen to the

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Speaker 1: rest of this podcast, Caroline and I are going to

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Speaker 1: be throwing around this the word slut willie nilly um.

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Speaker 1: But we wanted to talk about this SlutWalk Toronto because

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Speaker 1: it is where a feminist activist movement started last spring, right,

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Speaker 1: and it was sparked by Mom. It's from a police officer.

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Speaker 1: If you're familiar at all with a slot walk, you've

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Speaker 1: probably read the story in the news about it. But

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Speaker 1: a police officer told students at York University in January

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Speaker 1: of last year that women should not dress like slots

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Speaker 1: if they want to avoid getting sexually attacked, which is

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Speaker 1: so off base. I mean, I don't know if you could, uh,

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Speaker 1: if there is another way to say, hey, ladies, don't

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Speaker 1: ask for it. That brings up issues of victim shaming,

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Speaker 1: slut shaming as it is often called, and more feminist parlance.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, the some of the students in the audience

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Speaker 1: listening to this questionable and sexist advice from this police officer,

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Speaker 1: Michael Michael Sanguinetti, decided to take action and organize UM

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Speaker 1: an event to to march and combat this notion that

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Speaker 1: women should not feel safe if they want to wear

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Speaker 1: more provocative of or revealing clothing, with the argument that

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Speaker 1: women should be safe to walk around and go places

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Speaker 1: without the threat of sexual violence or rape, um no

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Speaker 1: matter what they're what they're wearing. Right. I was actually

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Speaker 1: telling my roommate about this topic and about what the

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Speaker 1: police officer said, and that the movement was about too,

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Speaker 1: was about making women feel comfortable, being able to be

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Speaker 1: outside in public and not feel like I'm wearing skirts

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Speaker 1: so I'm gonna get attacked. And he brought up a

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Speaker 1: point that a lot of people have used to criticize

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Speaker 1: this movement, and he said, well, sure, no woman shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be raped for what she's wearing, but shouldn't you know better? Ah,

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Speaker 1: but see someone like Heather Jarvis, who co founded slit

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Speaker 1: Walk UM and it's also a survivor of sexual assault

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Speaker 1: would say that that's probably just an extension of the

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Speaker 1: you're asking for it argument. But before we get any further, UM,

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Speaker 1: I think it's already clear that slut walks and UM

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Speaker 1: the the idea behind it is controversial, and while there

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Speaker 1: is a lot to be said for them, the activism

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Speaker 1: that these women in Toronto sparked because sloot Walks ended

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Speaker 1: up in two thousand eleven taking place in over two

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Speaker 1: cities around the world, including the US, Canada, Sweden, South Africa, India. UM.

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Speaker 1: So it's incredible that they've they've had this organizing power,

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Speaker 1: but the way that it has manifested in what they're

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Speaker 1: championing has also attracted controversy, not just from people like

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Speaker 1: the police officer who thinks that women should cover up UM,

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Speaker 1: but also from within feminist circles right. One person who

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Speaker 1: supports the movement is Jessica Valenti. She's an author and

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Speaker 1: founder of feministing dot com, and she wrote for The

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Speaker 1: Washington Post that this whole movement is a good thing

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Speaker 1: and that it is a reminder of the minism's grassroots

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Speaker 1: passed and it heralds a new day in feminist organizing.

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Speaker 1: She points out that maybe this movement is going to

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Speaker 1: be more effective with younger women than with the well

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Speaker 1: funded and well established feminist organizations. Yeah, and we should

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Speaker 1: also point out that in addition to these marches that

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Speaker 1: slot Walk has been organizing UM, Heather Jarvis and other

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Speaker 1: co organizers have demanded that UM police training and education

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Speaker 1: include non discriminatory language, increased understanding of experiences of marginalization

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Speaker 1: and oppression, and practices and protocols that support support victims

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Speaker 1: and survivors. So in addition to demonstrating, they also have

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Speaker 1: these UM platforms for applicable change within UM. I guess

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Speaker 1: in this situation, the York University Police system, right, And

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Speaker 1: they posted on their website, Uh, they're basically what they

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Speaker 1: were requesting from the police department after this event, and

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Speaker 1: they said that they really didn't get much of a response.

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Speaker 1: The response that they got back from one of the

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Speaker 1: pr people in the police department was sort of a

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Speaker 1: generic like, you know, we really strive to protect our

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Speaker 1: citizens and we want to be seen as you know,

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Speaker 1: helping everybody. But Jarvis and others involved in this movement

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Speaker 1: are arguing, you're not protecting us and you're not respecting

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Speaker 1: us either. We don't feel safe going to you if

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Speaker 1: you're just going to tell us that it was our

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Speaker 1: fault because we wore a little dress. And beyond just

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Speaker 1: the law enforcement community, the message that slut Walk wants

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Speaker 1: to deliver to the community at large is that quote

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Speaker 1: our worth as human beings is not determined by our sexuality.

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Speaker 1: And that's just one nugget of almost a constitutional preamble

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Speaker 1: of slut Walk that these women have developed. But I

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Speaker 1: feel like that idea of your worth um not being

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Speaker 1: conflated by your sexuality, um is really gets the heart

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Speaker 1: of what slut Walk is about. And in places like

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Speaker 1: New Delhi that held a slut walk last year, there

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Speaker 1: there is a really um it is. It is pretty

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Speaker 1: impressive that an event like this is taking place. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they did change the name. There was an article in

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Speaker 1: Time magazine about the march in New Delhi and they

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Speaker 1: basically pointed out that it was toned down just because

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Speaker 1: of cultural differences. Essentially, they changed the name from slot

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Speaker 1: Walk to Shameless Front and they you know, there was

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Speaker 1: not really much of that skimpy clothing going around um

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Speaker 1: But the goal was the same, and it was to

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Speaker 1: draw attention to the growing problems of harassment and violence

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Speaker 1: that women in India face. They point on the article

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Speaker 1: that rape cases in the country have grown six seventy

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Speaker 1: eight percent over the past thirty years. They do attribute

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Speaker 1: some of the change to the fact that you know,

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Speaker 1: more people are probably reporting the violence, but they attribute

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Speaker 1: some of it also to the fact that there are

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Speaker 1: more women out of the house and getting jobs. The

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Speaker 1: economy is such that more women are becoming financially independent,

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Speaker 1: and so there's sort of an upset of the traditional

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Speaker 1: cultural division. Yeah. So whereas in UM more of the

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Speaker 1: western world, we might take for granted UH safety when

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Speaker 1: we're going to and from our jobs or from our

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Speaker 1: homes to other excursions, UM. Whereas in more gender segregated

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Speaker 1: societies UM, there are direct threats of violence for for

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Speaker 1: women leaving the home. UM. And we mentioned that there

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Speaker 1: were none of the skimpy clothes in the New Delhi

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Speaker 1: march UM. But that reminds me that we haven't really

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Speaker 1: painted a picture of what a slut walk might look

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Speaker 1: like in case listeners have not seen photos of it.

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Speaker 1: That's true largely young women, although they do there are

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Speaker 1: some men that marched with them and a lot of

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Speaker 1: them are wearing bras and underwear. Yeah, the point is

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Speaker 1: to wear whatever you're comfortable with. But also, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's clearly the provocative nature of it, saying, hey, women

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Speaker 1: should be able to wear bras, panties, corsets, cut off shorts,

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Speaker 1: whatever they want and still feel safe. So you'll see,

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Speaker 1: you know, a lot of images of the women in

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Speaker 1: bras and also men in lingerie as well. But then

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Speaker 1: you'll also have put folks in sweatpants. You don't have

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Speaker 1: to wear. It's just sort of the march is providing

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Speaker 1: a safe space, like, look at us, We're wearing what

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Speaker 1: we're comfortable in. We're banding together in a safe space

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Speaker 1: where we will not be attacked. And as a result,

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Speaker 1: probably because of that provocative nature UM and because of

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Speaker 1: using the word slut to get people's attention and to

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Speaker 1: organize people UM, the movement attracted a ton of media attention.

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Speaker 1: And now going into two thousand twelve, we're seeing the

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Speaker 1: second year UM and it'll be interesting to see how

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Speaker 1: it um, how it continues, whether or not it has

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Speaker 1: the same amount of participation as it did last year,

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Speaker 1: which is partially why I wanted to to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: On the podcast also because we've had some some listeners

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Speaker 1: writing and requesting an episode on it, and we also

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Speaker 1: have to talk about the fact that not everybody thinks

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Speaker 1: this is a great idea. No uh, not only because

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Speaker 1: of the word slut, not only because of the way

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Speaker 1: people are dressing, but how this march, this movement fits

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Speaker 1: into larger cultural norms in our society. And Valenti, who

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Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier, cites Gail Dines, who's an anti pornography activist,

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Speaker 1: and Wendy Murphy, who's a victim's rights advocate, who say

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Speaker 1: that organizers are playing into the patriarchal hands and embracing

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Speaker 1: a quote portified consumer sexuality by protesting with their skimpy outfits.

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Speaker 1: So they're saying, you're still inside, You're protesting from within,

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Speaker 1: You're still inside the whole patriarchal system of of wearing

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Speaker 1: skimpy things. We're still we're still looking at ourselves through

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Speaker 1: the eyes of other people. Right. It's the question of

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Speaker 1: UM using the usefulness of using sexual ay as a

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Speaker 1: tool of empowerment, which may as these Writing for the

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Speaker 1: Australian Broadcasting Corporation, UM writes about in a column she's

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Speaker 1: taking issue with the attitude that sexuality is power and

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Speaker 1: that this movement is about letting women freely identify as sluts, because, um,

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Speaker 1: the whole ethos of slut Walk, in their own words,

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Speaker 1: is that our worth as human beings is not determined

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Speaker 1: by our sexuality. And people like Zes might argue that, well,

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Speaker 1: isn't what you're doing simply wielding your sexuality as some

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Speaker 1: kind of tool thereby, you know, defining yourself based on

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Speaker 1: your dress and how you perform in the bedroom. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and this whole issue of claiming or reclaiming the word

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Speaker 1: slut is making a lot of people angry, understandably, and

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Speaker 1: as these says that because Jarvis, Heather Jarvis, one of

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Speaker 1: the co founders, argues that reclaiming lout is like reclaiming queer,

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Speaker 1: and Assease is claiming that it's it's not the same,

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Speaker 1: And because she says that slut can't be turned into

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Speaker 1: a positive thing because it's been used to abuse people

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Speaker 1: for so long, and she said that we should really

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Speaker 1: be reclaiming feminist instead of slut because that's the word

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Speaker 1: that people are so afraid to use. Yeah, this this

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Speaker 1: question of how feminism directly relates to slut Walk has

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Speaker 1: come up a lot as well, because, um, some of

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Speaker 1: the the organizers have distance themselves from that feminist language,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of ironic because if you could pick

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Speaker 1: two words in the English language that are polarizing, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you can't get much more polarizing than slut and feminist. Um,

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Speaker 1: if you want to uh to describe women uh. And

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Speaker 1: Megan Murphy over the F word blog Rights, I was

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Speaker 1: hard pressed to find anyone actually talking about feminism. And

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Speaker 1: she's uncomfortable with slut being used as a way to

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Speaker 1: empower women since it's a word, like you said, Caroline,

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Speaker 1: that has been used systematically to hurt and shame women.

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Speaker 1: And is it the right argument? Are we arguing the

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Speaker 1: right thing? Because I understand that the slut walk as

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Speaker 1: it's called, is in direct response to the police officer

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Speaker 1: in Toronto his use of that word, But is it

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Speaker 1: the same for everyone? Are we still arguing the right thing?

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Speaker 1: And Tracy Clark Floory at Salon writes that she is

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Speaker 1: tired of the polarizing rhetoric that people are calling you

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Speaker 1: either a prude or a slut, that there's no in between,

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Speaker 1: that you can't be a prude, slut or you know,

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Speaker 1: that that you have to identify as one or the other,

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Speaker 1: almost right, because if you if we're reclaiming the words

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Speaker 1: slut to mean an empowered woman who is UM safe

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Speaker 1: in her identity and um can be outspoken and independent

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Speaker 1: in all of these all of these positive attributes, then

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Speaker 1: what is the opposite of that? Does that mean that

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Speaker 1: people who might typicvise more prudish, who might not be

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Speaker 1: so comfortable revealing a lot of a lot of flesh. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean there were a lot of columnists who write

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Speaker 1: about this who said, when I read about slot walk,

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Speaker 1: I was totally on board with the message, the idea

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Speaker 1: behind it. I supported these women, but I don't want

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Speaker 1: to call myself a slot there. It's it's loaded. It's

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Speaker 1: a loaded word, obviously. But some of the most vocal

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Speaker 1: opposition to slut walk has actually come from the black

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Speaker 1: feminist community that says, hey, slut walk, we get what

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Speaker 1: you're trying to do and the gold ultimate goal of it.

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Speaker 1: Totally on board with that, but we we don't see

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Speaker 1: ourselves anywhere in this movement represented in this movement at all. Right.

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Speaker 1: That was a statement in an open letter from black

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Speaker 1: women to the slut Walk on Black Women's Blueprint dot

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Speaker 1: org and they said that we find no space and

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Speaker 1: slot walk slut has different associations for Black women. And

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Speaker 1: they write that as black women, we do not have

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Speaker 1: the privilege or the space to call ourselves slut without

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Speaker 1: vale validating the already historically entrenched ideology and recurring messages

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Speaker 1: about what and who the black woman is. And so

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Speaker 1: they point out that different people's histories really require a

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Speaker 1: different strategy to combat this violence against women. Right and Um,

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Speaker 1: a writer over at the Crunk Feminist Collective UM who

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Speaker 1: describes herself as a Black woman of the hip hop generation,

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Speaker 1: UM takes issue with the fact that um, the origin

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Speaker 1: of slut walk felt very much like the protests of

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Speaker 1: privileged white girls who still have an expectation that the

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Speaker 1: world will treat them with dignity and respect. Whereas she writes, uh,

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Speaker 1: and I'm again directly quoting from her, Black women have

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Speaker 1: always been understood to be lascibious, hyper sex and always

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Speaker 1: ready and willing, whereas, by comparison, this idea of slut

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Speaker 1: walk in coming up in two thousand eleven is somehow

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Speaker 1: something new and offensive. Yes, so they're basically saying, why

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Speaker 1: what a woman of color, who has been abused with

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Speaker 1: that word for so long want to reclaim it, Like,

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Speaker 1: how can we turn that into something positive? Like these

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Speaker 1: marchers are saying that we can. And at some point

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Speaker 1: it probably does sound like this, this controversy around slut

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Speaker 1: Walk and the idea of reclaiming the words slut and

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Speaker 1: street harassment and sexual assault boils into this, Uh you know,

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Speaker 1: all of this in fighting in the feminist blogosphere, but

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Speaker 1: I still feel like it's important to talk about because

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Speaker 1: like it or not, whether you're on board with it

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Speaker 1: or not, slut Walk nevertheless does represent one of the largest,

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Speaker 1: you know, almost mainstream feminist activism movements. Yeah, that we've

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Speaker 1: seen that I've seen at least in my lifetime. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we've seen like marches, Women's March on the Capitol, but

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Speaker 1: but it's one singular event going to one singular place.

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Speaker 1: Whereas this is sparked, it's almost like the Occupy movement.

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Speaker 1: It's march all over these these different cities in a

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Speaker 1: very grassroots kind of way. And I think that it

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Speaker 1: said because it's led by women of our generation, I

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Speaker 1: think it says a lot about um body politics where

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Speaker 1: we are with the idea of feminism and where the

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Speaker 1: personal and the political meet, and a lot of times

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Speaker 1: that that sadly does I think, sadly unfortunately only ties

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Speaker 1: into the bedroom like sexuality, using sexuality as empowerment. Well,

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Speaker 1: we could also ask where they're going to take this.

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Speaker 1: Is this going to stay a march that happens in

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Speaker 1: individual cities, or is this going to become a movement.

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Speaker 1: Is it going to help educate young women about their bodies,

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Speaker 1: about sexual identity, sexual safety, anything like that, Like what

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Speaker 1: what is the next step for the slot walk is it?

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Speaker 1: Is it going to stay the way it is or

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Speaker 1: is it going to evolve? And and on that, on that, No,

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Speaker 1: Caroline Um just to bring up one more point about

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Speaker 1: this controversy over um inclusiveness racial inclusiveness in slut Walk.

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Speaker 1: Robin Given, who's a fashion critic for The Daily Beast

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Speaker 1: and Newsweek, says that because of the potential of that

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Speaker 1: end goal UM, she says, the reverse is also possible.

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Speaker 1: It would seem to me that black women might have

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Speaker 1: an even more powerful reason to want to diffuse the

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Speaker 1: power of the word slut. So it's kind of moving

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Speaker 1: away from this UM, I guess, more intensive examination and

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Speaker 1: looking at the potential long view of how how it

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Speaker 1: could affect women. But but still there is this question

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Speaker 1: of whether or not it is that useful to reclaim slut.

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Speaker 1: And for that reason, I want to get to the

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Speaker 1: bottom of where slut even came from. So can you

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Speaker 1: can you tell me what Smith, Caroline? Um, Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: pretty old. Slut is pretty old. Uh. This is from

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Speaker 1: a Live Science post that popped up after the whole

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Speaker 1: Rush Limbaugh birth control slut debacle. Um. They write that

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Speaker 1: the word slut first showed up in print when Chaucer

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Speaker 1: wrote in the fourteenth century that a sloppy male character

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Speaker 1: was sluttish, So right away the word is associated with

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Speaker 1: people who are kind of dirty. By the fifteenth century,

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Speaker 1: the word was being used to describe kitchen maids and sloppy,

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Speaker 1: dirty women. So it took barely a hundred years for

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Speaker 1: the application to switch really from men to women. And

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Speaker 1: it has that low class, low economic class association. Um.

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Speaker 1: And just to emphasize that old year old terms for um, uh,

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Speaker 1: dust bunnies, slut bunnies, and garbage bins were referred to

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Speaker 1: as sluts holes. So when we're talking about when we're

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Speaker 1: throwing around the word slut. It is not a nice word.

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Speaker 1: It really is not. Now they Chaucer did not mean

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Speaker 1: that that guy had a great, great character or personality, right.

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Speaker 1: And we've mentioned Tracy Clark Floury from Salon before talking

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Speaker 1: about how she was fed up with the dichotomy of

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Speaker 1: slut versus prude. But then afterwards, once the whole rush

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Speaker 1: lim boss slet fiasco happened, she wrote another column saying,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I was on board with claiming this

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Speaker 1: word until that happened. And she goes on to quotely

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Speaker 1: or A. Tannenbaum, who is the author of Slut Growing

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Speaker 1: Up with a bad reputation. She says, the slur is

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Speaker 1: used frequently by girls against other girls, and it's a

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Speaker 1: way for women to displace anxiety about their own sexuality.

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Speaker 1: And I I can kind of see where I feel from. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: for sure. I mean I feel like that word was

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Speaker 1: I was not even comfortable with that in college culture.

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Speaker 1: I feel like that was thrown around a lot, like, hey, slut,

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Speaker 1: what's up that I don't I didn't like it then,

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Speaker 1: I don't like it now. Um. But Clark Flory does

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Speaker 1: point out that reclaiming or rejecting flot is personal and

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Speaker 1: it does depend on context. So it might be comfortable

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Speaker 1: for some people to call their friends that for whatever reason,

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Speaker 1: or to identify that because of some sexual identity, but

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Speaker 1: it's not the same for everyone. I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: start calling you slut anytime soon as a thank you

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Speaker 1: as a fun galpal name, Caroline. No, not unless you

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Speaker 1: want to get in a slap fight, that's for sure. Um.

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Speaker 1: Clark Floury also quotes Bikini Kills Kathleen Hannah, who performed

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Speaker 1: on stage with the word written on her stomach, and

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Speaker 1: she she quoted Hannah who said that this whole displaying

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Speaker 1: the words so prominently on her body in large letters

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Speaker 1: would be like holding up a mirror to the men

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Speaker 1: who were already looking at her picture and thinking that,

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Speaker 1: So like, oh you think I'm a slot up here

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Speaker 1: on stage, we'll here you go here. Yeah, yeah, have fun,

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Speaker 1: have fun. I've already called myself one, so when you know,

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Speaker 1: you try to label me as one, it's just gonna

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Speaker 1: be pointless because I've already done it. Um. But really,

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Speaker 1: as Clark Floury emphasis sizes, the difficulty of reclaiming slut

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Speaker 1: is that it's so divisive, and it is so hard

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Speaker 1: to define. It is used by some some people as

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Speaker 1: a casual what's up, this is funny, you're hay hay

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Speaker 1: slut hat you don't see contend? Take that paper to

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Speaker 1: the slut soule, Actually do No one ever says that. No,

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Speaker 1: no one ever does. Whereas for other people, it is

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Speaker 1: used as a slur to say to to point out,

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Speaker 1: um a woman in particular who may have slept with

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Speaker 1: someone who was not her betrothed or One columnist pointed out,

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Speaker 1: and I mean, I feel like this is common knowledge

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Speaker 1: and a lot of women have experienced this. But you

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Speaker 1: can be called a slut for anything, if you if

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Speaker 1: you have sex with someone, if you don't have sex

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Speaker 1: with a particular someone, if you wear something that is

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Speaker 1: too short in someone's mind. So it can be used

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Speaker 1: to abuse all sorts of women and men and man.

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Speaker 1: That's true. For instance, author Alice Walker takes a more

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Speaker 1: positive view of the words slut. She said that I

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Speaker 1: always understood slut to mean a woman who freely enjoys

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Speaker 1: her own sexuality. The spontaneous movement that has grown around

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Speaker 1: reclaiming this word speaks to women's resistance of having names

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Speaker 1: turned into weapons against them, which I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: that's not a bad idea. Absolutely you should try to

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Speaker 1: um declaw things that are used to abuse you. But

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Speaker 1: I just don't. I don't know if I I support

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Speaker 1: the idea, I don't support the word um. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I asked earlier where you think this is going, how

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Speaker 1: you think it will evolve, and Anita Sarkasian over at

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Speaker 1: Feminist Frequencies said that, yes, the word has garnered a

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Speaker 1: lot of attention for the movement, but she points out

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Speaker 1: that attention is not typically about violence against women at all,

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Speaker 1: but instead about how women should or shouldn't dress, which

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Speaker 1: is a completely regressive conversation that does not help anti

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Speaker 1: violent activism. So people are talking about their clothes, they're

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Speaker 1: marching in their bras. They're saying, rightfully, so I should

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Speaker 1: be safe and whatever I wear. But should the attention

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Speaker 1: evolve beyond that? Yeah, I mean that's my big question

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Speaker 1: of whether or not it is affecting the cultural change

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Speaker 1: necessary to make women safe not only just on the streets,

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Speaker 1: but also in situations like acquaintance rape, which is the

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Speaker 1: most common form of sexual assault for women on college

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Speaker 1: campuses where this whole thing began. How are are these parades,

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Speaker 1: Are these marches, Are these you know, these these online

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Speaker 1: and grassroots movements really getting into people's brains beyond just

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Speaker 1: the feminist blogosphere and the people who are marching in

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Speaker 1: their bras or in sweatpants. Um. And that's something that uh,

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Speaker 1: and that's something that Sela Misha Tillott, writing for The

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Speaker 1: Nation says, um, in order for it to be more

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Speaker 1: than a passing fat, it has to become a healthy

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Speaker 1: marriage of substance and spectacle, a movement that builds on

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Speaker 1: the anti rape activism of black women. And that's the thing.

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Speaker 1: Slt WALK did a great job with a spectacle. They

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Speaker 1: got attention not just within feminist circles, not just within

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Speaker 1: college groups, but beyond into mainstream media organizations, and that

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Speaker 1: is incredible. But you've got to have a substance there

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Speaker 1: as well, and I think that will be a crucial

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Speaker 1: year for them to do that and see whether or

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Speaker 1: not they will have made progress beyond um making signs

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Speaker 1: and uh wearing garter belts exactly. So we applaud, we

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Speaker 1: applaud with the the ethos behind slt WALK, But I

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Speaker 1: think that there is a reason why it's controversial, and

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Speaker 1: I think that It's good that these kind of debates

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Speaker 1: have come up because I think that um that that

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00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 1: we should re examine our motivations for it and how

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Speaker 1: we can really make the streets safe, because that's something

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Speaker 1: that I'm not and to argue against at all. So

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Speaker 1: I think that's all we gonna say about slot walk. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: now let's hear from you. Are you offended by the word?

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00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 1: Do you identify with the word? Have you participated in

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Speaker 1: a slot walk? Let us know, mom. Stuff at Discovery

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Speaker 1: dot com is where you can send your emails. And

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Speaker 1: speaking of safety, We've got a couple of emails here

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Speaker 1: in response to our episode on potty politics. This is

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Speaker 1: coming from Carly, who writes as a gender nonconforming person

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Speaker 1: who is constantly confronted with many issues brought up. I

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Speaker 1: thought I should write in I happen to be a tall, female,

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Speaker 1: bodied person with short hair who wears very gender neutral clothing. Well,

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Speaker 1: I could probably pass well enough to use the men's room.

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Speaker 1: I always choose to use the women's room, even if

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Speaker 1: there is a line. Every time the need comes up,

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Speaker 1: I consider my options. Sometimes my thought is I'm technically female,

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Speaker 1: so I should stick with the people I know I'm

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Speaker 1: technically allowed, but more often my thought is any has

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Speaker 1: to let receive in the women's room will be verbal

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Speaker 1: and probably not physical, whereas the men's room is an

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Speaker 1: unknown quantity and taskble is exactly what I get for

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Speaker 1: all of my efforts and consideration. About a third of

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Speaker 1: the time I'm confronted by other women, sometimes just in

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Speaker 1: surprise or confusion, sometimes and downright anger at my trespassing

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00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 1: on a woman's only space, And each time I politely

429
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,679
Speaker 1: explained that I am actually female. To this, I receive

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00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: everything from pure embarrassment and apologies to continued hostility. And

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00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 1: another third of the time I get stairs whispers behind

432
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 1: my back or women pulling their children closer to them.

433
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: To these, I usually try to smile, politely, avoid eye contact,

434
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 1: and get the hell out of there as quickly as possible.

435
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 1: The last third I think the baby Jesus that I

436
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: ended up in the bathroom alone. Most of the time,

437
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 1: I try to avoid using public restrooms at all cost.

438
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: When it is unavoidable, I try to be as quick

439
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 1: and unobtrusive as possible. Most of the time, the stairs

440
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: and comments are minor but constant annoyance. Occasionally, however, I

441
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 1: end up in situations where I definitely feel like my

442
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 1: appearance is putting me in actual danger, all for the

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00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: sin of breaking the illusion of a meaningful dichotomy between

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00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,719
Speaker 1: sexes in this apparently sacred place. Occasionally, however, I end

445
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: up in situations where I definitely feel like my appearance

446
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,479
Speaker 1: is putting me in actual danger, all for the sin

447
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,880
Speaker 1: of breaking the illusion of a meaningful dichotomy between sexes

448
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 1: in this apparently sacred place. I've been thinking about this

449
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 1: a lot more since I've recently moved to the South

450
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 1: from California to go to grad school and have been

451
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,439
Speaker 1: introduced to the whole new level of anxiety that is

452
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 1: a small town gas station. I think it might be

453
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 1: time to just pull on a trucker hat, venture to

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00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,719
Speaker 1: the men's room and hope for the best. This email

455
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: is from Jesse, also about our bathroom podcast. She said,

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00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 1: I'm a lesbian woman more on the butch side. I

457
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: can't remember a time when I wasn't a tomboy, and

458
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 1: I've had multiple instances in my life where I've been

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00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: in the women's bathroom and another woman will come in,

460
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: look me up and down and give me a questionable look.

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00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 1: One time, the woman actually walked out to make sure

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00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: she didn't make a mistake. I've actually gotten scolded once

463
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: or twice for being in the wrong bathroom, which is

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00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 1: pretty degrading when you're a woman and know the symbol

465
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 1: for women's room, I know a bathroom i'mn I have

466
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 1: actually had to give my best modeling post that shows

467
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,479
Speaker 1: off my boobs to get out of the situation. I

468
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: personally think that unisex bathrooms are the way to go.

469
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 1: Not only do they allow for potentially shorter lines, but

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00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 1: they also prevent embarrassing or otherwise ostracizing situations that can

471
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 1: potentially be damaging to someone's self esteem, especially if you

472
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: don't look like the stereotypical woman or man. Having gendered

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00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 1: bathrooms just adds more separation and definitions in a world

474
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 1: that is already full of them, which inevitably leads to

475
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,199
Speaker 1: stereotypes and judgments. If I always had a unisex bathroom

476
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 1: to go into, there would never be any questions, comments,

477
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 1: or looks, and I would always be able to pee

478
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,479
Speaker 1: in peace. Thanks Jesse, and thanks to Carl as well

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00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: and everyone else who has written in mom stuff. A

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00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: Discovery dot Com is where you can send your letters.

481
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,959
Speaker 1: You can also find us on Facebook and follow us

482
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 1: on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. And if you'd like

483
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: to see it or up to during the week, you

484
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: should have head over to our website, it's how stuff

485
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: works dot com. For more on this and thousands of

486
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: other topics, visit how stuff works dot com. Brought to

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00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camri. It's ready,

488
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: are you