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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and the price of ground beef has

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Speaker 1: hit a new high of.

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Speaker 2: Six dollars and twelve cents. We have a great show

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Speaker 2: for you today.

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Speaker 1: The Lincoln Frod dictsonn Rick Wilson joins us to discuss

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Speaker 1: Trump's failing to get the attention off.

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Speaker 2: His Ebstein ties.

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Speaker 1: Then we'll talk to Tim Weiner about his new book,

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Speaker 1: The Mission the CIA in the twenty first Century.

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Speaker 2: But first the news.

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Speaker 3: So, Mali, the Democrats are doing one of these autopsies.

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Speaker 3: You know, the Republicans famously did this when they lost

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Speaker 3: to Obama. But there's a glaring omission happening in what

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Speaker 3: they're looking at here, and it's disturbing a lot of

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Speaker 3: people who want the Democrats to step up their game.

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Speaker 1: I think that I'm going to read a quote from

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Speaker 1: Jane Kleeb, Nebraska Democratic chairman. She told the New York Times,

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Speaker 1: and I think this quote really does explain this autopsy

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Speaker 1: must suck. We are not interested in second guessing campaign

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Speaker 1: tactics or decisions of campaign operatives.

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Speaker 2: That's the whole point in the fucking autopsy.

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Speaker 1: The whole point is to second guess campaign tactics and

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Speaker 1: decisions of campaign operatives.

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Speaker 2: Don't do it. That is the point of the autopsy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, don't do an autopsy if you're going to let

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Speaker 1: people off the hook for any reason. Like this is

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Speaker 1: this idea that we're the nice guys and we don't

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Speaker 1: want to hurt anyone's feelings, so we won't second guess.

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Speaker 2: The campaign tactics.

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Speaker 1: Let me tell you about the campaign tactics incinerating cash

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Speaker 1: for seemingly no reason. The person who put her on

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Speaker 1: the sphere, that person probably should not have a job.

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Speaker 1: I want to just read to you what the term

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Speaker 1: autopsy means. Okay, An autopsy is a detailed examination of

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Speaker 1: a body after death, typically performed to determine the cause

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Speaker 1: of death and other factors to relate it to the

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Speaker 1: deceased health.

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Speaker 2: Eir go, you have an autopsy to find out what

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Speaker 2: went wrong.

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Speaker 1: So not second guessing the tactics is the point of

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Speaker 1: the fucking autopsy. And I'm gonna read the rest of

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Speaker 1: this Jane Cleve quote because if she's trying to tell

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Speaker 1: in herself she's done it. We are interested in what

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Speaker 1: voters turned out for Republicans and Democrats, and how we

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Speaker 1: fix this moving forward. I'm sorry, but there's plenty of

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Speaker 1: blame to go around, and we know why they turned out.

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Speaker 1: They turned out because Trump talked to them. They google

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Speaker 1: searched who is running for president on the Democratic side

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Speaker 1: on election day. We talk about this all the fucking time.

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Speaker 1: You guys, whatever you use that money for, don't do it.

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Speaker 1: Just give it to me and I'll go shopping with it,

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Speaker 1: because honestly, like I do a better job just me

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Speaker 1: shopping and talking about Kamal Harris. So there are words

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Speaker 1: and there are none. There are no words that do

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Speaker 1: not include profanity in this story. And he says folks

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Speaker 1: might be better off holding their applause or criticism until

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Speaker 1: we've had a chance to complete our work and actually

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Speaker 1: read it.

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Speaker 2: Nope, nope like that, No, no.

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Speaker 1: No no.

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Speaker 2: Also, by the way, whoever is paying for this, you're

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Speaker 2: wasting your money.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: My sister in law is a mortician who performs autopsies.

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Speaker 4: You know what.

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Speaker 3: She often finds numerous reasons somebody died because they're comorbidities.

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Speaker 3: You look everywhere, you find it all.

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Speaker 1: But also, I'm sorry, but like the days of US

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Speaker 1: spending millions and millions of dollars in traditional ads TV

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Speaker 1: ads are over. Wait, you were spending millions and millions

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Speaker 1: of dollars in traditional advertising, and this is why Democrats lose.

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Speaker 3: Well, Molly, I have a counter opinion for you about

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Speaker 3: why Democrats win because, according to Tulci Gabberd, Obama did

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Speaker 3: everything he could to undermine Trump in twenty sixteen, and

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Speaker 3: yet mister Trump was so strong and he still won.

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Speaker 2: According to her, you know, we've.

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Speaker 1: Gotten to a point here where the sick evans in

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Speaker 1: the Trump cabinet are just saying whatever, we'll make Trump happy.

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Speaker 1: So you know, Trump hates Obama because Obama made fun

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Speaker 1: of him at the White House Correspondence Standard, which is

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Speaker 1: his like origin story. But even before that, I do

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Speaker 1: want to point out that Donald Trump started the racist

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Speaker 1: lie that is Birtherism, right, the idea that Obama, whose

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Speaker 1: mother has been in this country longer than the fuck it,

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Speaker 1: you know, is a daughter of the American revolution, O guy,

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Speaker 1: So she's more American than any of us. That because

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Speaker 1: he had a black father, he was born in Kenya.

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Speaker 1: There is no evidence to support this. But if you're

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Speaker 1: a racist, maybe you think such things.

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Speaker 3: So this is really something from the Trump administration while

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Speaker 3: they're trying to pretend that Trump doesn't have ties to

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Speaker 3: a pedophile that's very famous Trump in the Catholic Church

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Speaker 3: are fighting a law of requiring clergy to report child abuse.

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Speaker 3: And there's a loophole in there that the Trump administration

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Speaker 3: is fighting even harder than the church to have so

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Speaker 3: that pedophiles get away with sexual abuse.

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Speaker 2: It's pretty gross.

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Speaker 1: Washington Sentive Bill five three seven five in the Washington

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Speaker 1: State Capitol. So basically the Attorney General has I'm a

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Speaker 1: Catholic and this is clear and important legislation he's saying.

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Speaker 1: But the reality is it's just a way to give

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Speaker 1: the Catholic Church more power and to not protect children.

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Speaker 1: And again this is everything in this administration is not

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Speaker 1: to protect people like the law is. You know, they're

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Speaker 1: constantly and you see this with the with what the

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Speaker 1: attorney general. The attorney general is supposed to protect people.

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Speaker 1: Now the Attorney General basically just protects Trump. And that's

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Speaker 1: why he has Pam Boondi there right, because this is

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Speaker 1: all about just doing whatever he wants, protecting him, getting

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Speaker 1: him free staff and skryptocracy.

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Speaker 2: This is what cryptocracies do. This is how they work.

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Speaker 3: Yep So, speaking of this administration and Republicans covering up

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Speaker 3: sexual abuse, last week we had Eva Werner on who

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Speaker 3: directed a documentary on Jim Jordan's handling of sexual abuse

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Speaker 3: at the OSU, and it looks like mister Jordan's finally

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Speaker 3: going to have to face a deposition after avoiding it

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Speaker 3: for many years.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Basically the point of this is that Eva made this

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Speaker 1: movie about surviving Ohio State, and had she not made

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Speaker 1: the movie, just like this is like at every point

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Speaker 1: we see artists who make these movies and all of

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Speaker 1: us are always like, nothing breaks through.

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Speaker 2: What are we fucking doing? Are we talking to people?

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Speaker 2: Nobody's listening.

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Speaker 1: But here's a great example of something where it is

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Speaker 1: abso fucking breaking through. And this is the same thing

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Speaker 1: with Epstein. You'll remember Epstein was about to get away

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Speaker 1: with it. Remember he was about to get away with

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Speaker 1: it when Julie Brown got these girls to come out

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Speaker 1: and because he was on you know, he was like

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Speaker 1: basically just in the sex offender registreet, but living in

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Speaker 1: his fabulous townhouse in Manhattan. I mean, it was not

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Speaker 1: and he was going to get away with This is

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Speaker 1: a great example here, Jim Jordan has been just ignoring subpoenas,

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Speaker 1: being like fuck you. And now all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: because of this movie Surviving Ohio State, which was number

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Speaker 1: one on HBO Max and a couple of million people

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Speaker 1: saw it, and now it is in the zeitgeisten. Now

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Speaker 1: he's going to face some accountability for this, and they're

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Speaker 1: going to get him to testify. And that's what you

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Speaker 1: have to remember about all of this. And that is

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Speaker 1: the thing about autocrats. And I've really read a lot

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Speaker 1: about this, so you know, while I was not alive

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Speaker 1: during World War Two, I've certainly seen this, and I

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Speaker 1: saw this with my grandfather McCarthy. The autocrat is able

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Speaker 1: to do it as able to do the crimes until

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Speaker 1: they're not right. Nothing matters until something matters. So don't despair,

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Speaker 1: like there's so many of us who are so in

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Speaker 1: despair about what's happening to our country. And I telling

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Speaker 1: you that this stuff works until it doesn't, okay, And

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Speaker 1: autocracy is crumble all the time because they are reliant

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Speaker 1: on the autocrat. And there is only one autocrat here.

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Speaker 1: And I just think everyone has to have faith that

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Speaker 1: eventually America has had many many dark moments, right we

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Speaker 1: in turn the Japanese during World War Two, we have

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Speaker 1: done this post reconstruction stuff where they just absolutely did

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Speaker 1: all these terrible things to people who had already been

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Speaker 1: through so many terrible things. We will get through this,

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Speaker 1: just like everything else, and we all have to remember

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Speaker 1: that everything matters, that things break through. That we're seeing

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Speaker 1: this polling. Trump's polling is horrendous. He's underwater on immigration.

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Speaker 1: Let the process happen. But keep doing what you're doing.

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Speaker 1: There's no reason to believe that it's not working, I mean,

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Speaker 1: except for the Democratic Party leadership, which is absolutely just

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Speaker 1: time for.

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Speaker 2: A tea party, folks.

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Speaker 1: Rick Wilson is the founder of the Lincoln Project in

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Speaker 1: the host of the Enemy's List. Welcome back to Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: Rick Wilson, Hey, Mali, drunk Fast.

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Speaker 2: It's another week of Epstein.

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Speaker 4: Katy Yes, and it's all Epstein. It's all Epstein, all

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Speaker 4: the time, for the rest of all time. Because he

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Speaker 4: has lost control of the narrative. He keeps trying to

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Speaker 4: throw boob bait out there for the Rubs, and they're

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Speaker 4: not even picking it up. They're not taking it. They

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Speaker 4: don't want it. They're angry with him, and I'm here

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Speaker 4: for it.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk for a minute about why what this

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Speaker 1: looks like we have Trump is truth's truth thing. It's

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Speaker 1: funny because it's like you really do see, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: so much of the media narrative is like Democrats didn't

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Speaker 1: get involved in culture war issues, but actually what it

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Speaker 1: is is like you just should ignore all of this,

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Speaker 1: Like everything that Trump is trying to do, all the

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Speaker 1: culture war bullshit, it's just ignore it and talk about stuff.

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Speaker 1: You know, he's saying, we're gonna switch it to the

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Speaker 1: Washington Redskins. We must have them be called the Washington Redskins.

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Speaker 1: They can no longer be called anything else but the

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Speaker 1: Washington Redskins. So basically, what we're learning here is that

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Speaker 1: everything Trump is doing is bullshit to get the base excited.

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Speaker 4: That's correct. And if this is the next Democrat who

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Speaker 4: takes who says anything about the Washington Redskins except to say, no,

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Speaker 4: we should rename it the Washington Epstein's, because that's it.

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Speaker 4: You know, stay on this thing. Do not let him

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Speaker 4: off the mat, do not let him, do not let

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Speaker 4: him recover, do not let him get a moment of peace.

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Speaker 4: In this do not let him play his game, and

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Speaker 4: so far, not only if his base not letting him

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Speaker 4: play his game, but Democrats have done a great job

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Speaker 4: at not let him play his game.

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Speaker 2: So explained, we should.

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Speaker 4: Keep pounding him on the Epstein issue, the lawlawsuit again,

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Speaker 4: Burnoch will blow.

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Speaker 2: Back on him.

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Speaker 4: That's it. A thousand FBI agents to review Epstein material

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Speaker 4: has created a thousand new witnesses, a thousand new sources

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Speaker 4: for stories. And the fact that he did that is

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Speaker 4: an overt in my mind, signal that he feels like

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Speaker 4: there is incriminating and compromising material inside the Epstein files

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Speaker 4: and the Epstein legal materials, and it has caused him

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Speaker 4: to be completely off his his autopilot for the last

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Speaker 4: ten days. I do not want to let up on

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Speaker 4: that for two reasons. One, it's an important issue where

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Speaker 4: they for years have blamed every Democrat right and claim.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 5: It matters.

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Speaker 2: Nothing else matters to them.

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Speaker 1: They don't care about all the stuff that makes the

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Speaker 1: rest of us horrified, but this, for whatever reason they

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Speaker 1: care about.

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Speaker 4: They spent ten years molly telling themselves we're saving the children,

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Speaker 4: and Donald Trump will help us save the children from

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Speaker 4: from Hillary Clinton and George Soros and John Podesta and whoever.

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Speaker 4: It was all a lie, It was all all made up,

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Speaker 4: but they bought into it, and it became a central

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Speaker 4: part of their political character, their personality. They couldn't stop

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Speaker 4: themselves from internalizing it because it was a ucy, compelling

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Speaker 4: story and to many of them it explained in their

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Speaker 4: heads that the Democrats had this giant blackmail system that

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Speaker 4: Epstein ran for them, and that it was this cohesive worldview.

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Speaker 4: But it was all bullshit, right and and the and

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Speaker 4: a monkey could have figured it out. It was all bullshit,

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Speaker 4: but they couldn't. And now there I think it's twofold

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Speaker 4: right now, Well, they the dog got the car and

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Speaker 4: they can't figure out what to do. They just can't

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Speaker 4: figure out what to do, and that it's driving them crazy.

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Speaker 4: And two, the ones who really believe it, because look,

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Speaker 4: Jack Postobic and Steve Bannon and and all these other

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Speaker 4: Alex Jones. They knew it was bullshit, but the bass

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Speaker 4: swallowed the bullshit hole and they believe in one hundred percent.

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Speaker 4: And now all the SCA influencers and the bullshit artists

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Speaker 4: are being punished by the base because they're you know,

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Speaker 4: they're like wait, you told us this was the most

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Speaker 4: important thing. You told us this was happening. You told

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Speaker 4: us we had to help save the children. And you

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Speaker 4: know it was part of what created QAnon. It was

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Speaker 4: part of what created a lot of the attacks on

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Speaker 4: Hillary in twenty sixteen, part of what created attacks on

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Speaker 4: Joe Biden throughout his administration in this campaign.

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Speaker 1: I think that's right, and I also wonder if there's

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Speaker 1: something else right, Like, clearly the base is upset and

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Speaker 1: the bass feels betrayed, but there's something else happening here,

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Speaker 1: which is this sort of like they're seeing behind the

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Speaker 1: curt in a way that I think they've never done before.

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Speaker 1: We've never seen this sort of the base see through

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Speaker 1: the cracks. And then also I just think this sort

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Speaker 1: of it's created a panic. We're also seeing how much

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Speaker 1: MAGA world is influenced by Trump, right, that the media

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Speaker 1: complex is really created by Trump. Right, because we saw

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Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk was all was.

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Speaker 2: Like, release the Epstein files, and then he was like, hey, guys.

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Speaker 4: I'm done talking about the Epstein file.

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Speaker 1: Right, Donald Trump says, stop talking about the Epstein files.

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Speaker 1: I think that is very There has to be a

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Speaker 1: sense in which the base is putting together that they

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Speaker 1: are being really controlled by Trump, that all of this

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Speaker 1: is controlled by Trump too.

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Speaker 4: I think I think that's right. And I think there's

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Speaker 4: also another part of this that I think even the

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Speaker 4: mainstream media has after ten years, some people have woken

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Speaker 4: up to, maybe I shouldn't chase the rabbits that he

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Speaker 4: puts out there every single day. Maybe I shouldn't chase

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Speaker 4: the bullshit that Caroline Levitt says every single day. Maybe

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Speaker 4: I shouldn't always run with the next thing X shiny

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Speaker 4: object he throws in front of me. Maybe I should

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Speaker 4: dig in a little harder on the assertions that he

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Speaker 4: makes and the stories that he tells, and the lies

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Speaker 4: that they that they intuit frequently are lies or distractions.

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Speaker 4: Maybe they've realized you don't have to play the same

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Speaker 4: game over and over again with this guy, because he

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Speaker 4: is essentially, you know, his own his own narrative, his

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Speaker 4: own story has fallen apart in front of them. And

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Speaker 4: I think a lot and I had a couple mainstream

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Speaker 4: reporters in the very beginning of this like, well, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 4: they were. They They're on video a couple of times,

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Speaker 4: but there's no real evidence they were ever like close friends,

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Speaker 4: I was like stuff. For all the evidence that they

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Speaker 4: were close friends. I think there's one more thing here

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Speaker 4: that's happening with his bass. And I think that, like

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Speaker 4: a lot of authoritarians, the grip is so strong for

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Speaker 4: so long that when it starts to loosen, when it

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Speaker 4: starts to get shaky, even they have a moment like

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Speaker 4: oh damn. And I do think while the while the

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Speaker 4: Trump controls a lot of the MAGA influencer media, right,

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Speaker 4: he doesn't, as we've seen now in control the Wall

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Speaker 4: Street Journal or.

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Speaker 1: Right, he doesn't control Rupert Murdoch, the ninety four year

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Speaker 1: old who created him.

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Speaker 2: He does not control.

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Speaker 4: Correct the original doctor Frankenstein, who created the Trump monster.

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Speaker 4: It still still has the power. And I think we're

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Speaker 4: probably about to witness a very interesting dynamic at Fox.

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Speaker 4: Fox's lawyers are notoriously litigious, notoriously aggressive, notorious dicks. Right,

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Speaker 4: but you've once in a blue moon seen Rupert tell

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Speaker 4: even the Night side of Fox. Okay, this is our message. Now,

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Speaker 4: I don't know that Rupert at ninety four years old,

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Speaker 4: doesn't want to go out with a bang. He has

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Speaker 4: broken he has broken governments around this world. He has

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Speaker 4: broken prime ministers, he has broken kings, he has broken banks.

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Speaker 4: Rupert may want to go out with one final hurrah.

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Speaker 4: Trump's submersion in a scandal of this magnitude is not

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Speaker 4: just breaped for Rupert personally had to have revenge on

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Speaker 4: Trump for trying to sue him for ten million dollars.

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Speaker 4: It's also great content for the network. It's also great.

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Speaker 4: It's also a great storyline.

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Speaker 2: But it's a huge rating thing.

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Speaker 4: And now even Trump couldn't resist the deep state. Who

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Speaker 4: will be the next true hero of conservatives? I mean,

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Speaker 4: there's a way I could see Rupert having a very

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Speaker 4: profitable experience from this, and you know Rupert, he does

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Speaker 4: love money.

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Speaker 1: I also want to point out that there is now

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Speaker 1: two things. On Tuesday, Vice President Jadi Vance made a

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Speaker 1: trip to Montana to meet with Rupert and Lochlan discuss.

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Speaker 4: If I'm Donald Trump, I worry that the twenty fi'th

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Speaker 4: the mimic drum beat will get louder sooner. Rupert and

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Speaker 4: Laughlin could get along just fine with Jada Vance, Well,

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Speaker 4: a lot of people couldn't I'm Trump. I'd be very

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Speaker 4: worried about I worried about stories not just appearing on

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Speaker 4: Fox about his Epstein matter, but more stories of about

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Speaker 4: his health. That'll be the tag, that'll be the giveaway

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Speaker 4: from Fox. If they're going to really turn the machine

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Speaker 4: on their own creation, they'll have to start having doctors on,

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Speaker 4: like what about the president's health? Is he okay? Can

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Speaker 4: he still lead? And they might even couch it to

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Speaker 4: keep their audience around, Like, while we love Donald Trump,

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Speaker 4: we worry about his health. It's an interesting moment.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, Maria Barbarola, I mean, I just

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Speaker 1: want to point out, so far we have seen no

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Speaker 1: evidence on the opinion shows. Well, certainly the Wall Street

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Speaker 1: Journal is running this story and it has but the

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Speaker 1: opinion shows are still very much.

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Speaker 2: Trump's they are, but once again, a finer point on it.

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Speaker 4: Once again, let's remember one thing about all those people.

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Speaker 4: Unlike any other network, those people are employees of Rupert Murdoch,

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Speaker 4: who will if he says John, heanity, I want you

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Speaker 4: to go out on stage and I want you to

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Speaker 4: say that Trump is a jackass and a fool. He

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Speaker 4: may resist it.

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Speaker 2: But somebody will eventually.

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Speaker 4: Doll will exercise itself. He has editorial control, unlike the

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Speaker 4: head of any other network, right by far correct, So

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Speaker 4: and look, I think again, there there's a very dangerous

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Speaker 4: moment for Trump coming up. There is a confluence of

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Speaker 4: rupert in this fight and what Elon must does behind

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Speaker 4: the scenes at Twitter. If he algorithmically decides, because Elon's

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Speaker 4: back up on the Epstein wagon again beating Trump on it,

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Speaker 4: he's been, He's been mentioning it all week last week.

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Speaker 4: But if Elon decides he wants to elevate Epstein content

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Speaker 4: and mute the maga troll armies that keep Trump keep

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Speaker 4: Trump's message, like keeping the base in rigid order. There

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Speaker 4: are two ways that the base gets information. It's Fox

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Speaker 4: and it's Twitter.

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Speaker 2: Right, if Elon.

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Speaker 4: Wanted to play fuck around, even behind the scenes, he

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Speaker 4: could have a really bad impact and amplify any any

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Speaker 4: of these things about Epstein. Actually, I saw someone ask

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Speaker 4: that question the other day in a pro mogue Alive,

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Speaker 4: like they were worried, like, is Elon going to to

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Speaker 4: make this Epstein stuff bigger? I'm like, yes, Elon, you should.

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Speaker 1: Right, right, I mean, and it is worth it is

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Speaker 1: worth wondering about. Like Elon is out, so Elon may

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Speaker 1: want to get back in, but so far there's zero

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Speaker 1: evidence that Elon is is going to be invited.

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Speaker 4: Back in so far there's no evidence of that. I

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Speaker 4: think that Trump and the Epstein problem has probably delayed

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Speaker 4: Trump trying to screw Elon over like SpaceX contracts and

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Speaker 4: Starlink contracts and things like that with the government. But

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Speaker 4: I do believe, I do believe that Elon still has

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Speaker 4: a weapon in his hands, right. I think I think

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Speaker 4: even Trump understands if tomorrow and look, Elon knows what

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Speaker 4: they over at Twitter. They know what all the bought information,

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Speaker 4: all the bought armies are. They know they know who

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Speaker 4: they have boosted on the MAGA influencer side over and

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Speaker 4: over again. You know, why is it the MAGA influencers

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Speaker 4: get eighty thousand likes and twenty five thousand retweets on

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Speaker 4: posts that say Trump is cool and everyone else's voices

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Speaker 4: are sort of like at a baseline, you know, one

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Speaker 4: controls that machine if he decided to use it to

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Speaker 4: put pressure on Trump, to elevate Epstein, to elevate the

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Speaker 4: crisis of Trump's health, to elevate the fight with with Rupert.

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Speaker 4: He's got enormous power, you know, and as I always

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Speaker 4: tell people, power doesn't exist unless you use it. But

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Speaker 4: Rupert also enormous, enormous power, and Rupert is accustomed to

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Speaker 4: using that power right, and he is accustomed to presidents

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Speaker 4: calling him sir, right and asking how they can gain

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Speaker 4: his favor.

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Speaker 1: Republican president, Democratic president, yes, correct, correct, don't have a.

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Speaker 2: Chance do it.

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Speaker 4: But you know, look, Trump files a ten billion dollar

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Speaker 4: lawsuit against you. You're going to wake up in the

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Speaker 4: morning and go, huh. You're not going to say, how

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Speaker 4: can I make his presidency better? You're not going to

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Speaker 4: say how can I make him how can I get

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Speaker 4: him out of this horrible pr trap that he's put

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Speaker 4: himself down with Jeffrey Epstein. You're gonna say, well, I

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Speaker 4: have lawyers, guns, and money, as the old warre and

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Speaker 4: Zyvon Song says, and he's going to deploy at least

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Speaker 4: a couple of those. And I think, I really think

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Speaker 4: that one of the things Fox has always been great

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Speaker 4: at is amplifying a really important Trump narrative that Trump

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Speaker 4: always wins, that Trump is always the winner, the guy

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Speaker 4: who always beats the libs, always beats, the media always beats,

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Speaker 4: the rhinos always beats the never Trumpers, And right now

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Speaker 4: Trump is losing, and all of those groups weirdly for

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Speaker 4: the first time in history and probably the last, are

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Speaker 4: pretty much in alignment that the Jeffrey Epstein cut because

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Speaker 4: let's remember, this is a government cover up. Now It's

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Speaker 4: not just Trump's past, it's the cover up that's happening

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Speaker 4: while we are speaking about this. And look, we talked

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Speaker 4: about this last time. Stusey Wilds called Pam Bondi and

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Speaker 4: said something to the effective you got to clean this up.

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Speaker 4: We also now know that this call came earlier than

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Speaker 4: we thought, and the call came with Bondy ordering the

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Speaker 4: FBI to put a thousand people on analyzing the Epstein

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Speaker 4: documents and case information, specifically to discover any references to

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Speaker 4: Donald Trump. They did not do that to make the

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Speaker 4: case clear to America. They did not do that to

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Speaker 4: help the victims. They did not do that to bring justice.

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Speaker 4: They did it to protect Donald Trump and a thousand

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Speaker 4: people looking at those documents. That is now a thousands

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Speaker 4: of poenas in a case, either the civil case with

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Speaker 4: Fox or any case in the future about this. It

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Speaker 4: is now a thousand subpoenas in any congressional case when

438
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 4: the Democrats take power to take the House back over.

439
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 4: This has turned into something it's been a mistake. All

440
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 4: cover ups are a fuck up and a mistake. Every

441
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 4: time you try to cover up something in government, it fails.

442
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 4: Three people can keep a secret in government if two

443
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 4: of them are dead, and even minutes Reiki, I.

444
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:22,159
Speaker 1: Think that's right. I also wonder if when you find

445
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 1: yourself in a situation like this, like there's all of

446
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:30,680
Speaker 1: this material that went to Pambondi, right, right, that supposedly

447
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 1: went from the FBI, they've sort of narrated enough to

448
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: hang themselves, right, and so talk us through that.

449
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 2: Right, They've said that they have this, Remember she.

450
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,120
Speaker 4: Said, Well, first off, she said she had the Epstein

451
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 4: client list on her desk, and no matter how did

452
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,680
Speaker 4: they say parse that interview, that's what she was responding to, right,

453
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 4: That's what she also said. Bongino and Patel said there

454
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 4: are thousands of hours of video material, some of which

455
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 4: is is is child exportation?

456
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 5: Right.

457
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 4: They also affirmed in that the FBI had seized thousands

458
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 4: of hours of video, thousands and thousands of photographs, all

459
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 4: kinds of other ancillary evidence from Jeffrey Epstein's homes in

460
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 4: Little Saint John and in New Mexico or is Arizona. Well,

461
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 4: out west what I think it's New Mexico and in

462
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 4: Manhattan they took all kinds of material. They have admitted that.

463
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 4: The g OJ has said, do we have this. We

464
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 4: don't know what that is. We don't have a full

465
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 4: we have we have some limited exposure to what it is.

466
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 4: We don't have a full catalog of what it is.

467
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 4: And the fact that they also had a vast probe

468
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 4: of material from the Florida case that Alice Acosta Frum

469
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 4: Labor Secretary Gabe Epstein the sweetheart.

470
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 1: Deal, which I mean, it's just they're so implicated this

471
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 1: even if like even if Alex cost it was just

472
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 1: like it's a rich white guy, we don't charge them

473
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: with crimes. The fact that this administration has been for

474
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: so long being like there's something here, we released the

475
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,120
Speaker 1: you know, the reality is and you and I both

476
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: know this. The government is ineffective in many, many, many ways,

477
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: and often they're just lazy and sort of fuck up stuff.

478
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: I mean, most likely the most likely explanation with a

479
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: lot of this is just laziness and disorganization.

480
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 2: That said, if.

481
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 1: You have been telling your base for months and months

482
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,120
Speaker 1: and months and years and years and years, almost a decade,

483
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 1: maybe more that there's a secret birth certificate and that

484
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: there's child trafficking. If you have been telling them again

485
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: and again that something is coming and it turns out

486
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: that what's coming is you trying to protect your rich

487
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: friends or you trying to protect your then either answer

488
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:05,479
Speaker 1: is infuriating to these people.

489
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 4: And well, it looked part of this came from the

490
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 4: fact that the base was told that all the people

491
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 4: in this global pedophile ring, not just with Epstein, but

492
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 4: with the qwanon Pizzagate, Jack Pasobic Pizzagate stuff, all that stuff.

493
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 4: They were told that it was Democrats, Hillary Clinton, Bill

494
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 4: clemm Barack Obama, Joe Biden, George Soros, John Podesta, on

495
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 4: and on and on and on. They were told that

496
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 4: this was sort of the Rosetta stone to revealing that

497
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 4: the Democrats were all pedophiles, they were all child sex traffickers,

498
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:46,719
Speaker 4: they were all involved in this horrifying, profoundly sick accusation.

499
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,719
Speaker 4: And as you find more of these stories coming out

500
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 4: about this, it's like when Trump has a party of

501
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 4: enage models at his house and the only person on

502
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 4: the guest list is Jeffrey Epstein. When you see him

503
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 4: talk about their beautiful secret. You know, I don't see

504
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 4: a lot of notes revealed from Hillary Clinton saying, hey,

505
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 4: what a great party last night, Jeffrey. Those babies were delicious.

506
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 4: None of it. You see Trump connections more and more.

507
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 4: And look, as I've said over and over, if there

508
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 4: were powerful men, whether they are Republican, were Democrats, sexually

509
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 4: exploiting children, America deserves to know about it, and they

510
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 4: deserve to be punished. And I don't care, it doesn't

511
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 4: matter what I do.

512
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 1: But they are if it's Phil Quinn and if it's

513
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, nobody cares.

514
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:31,679
Speaker 2: They have to go to jail.

515
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: This is not okay. Now, it's striking to me that

516
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: the base also agrees with that, and they're right. I mean,

517
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: like it happens to be that this entire controversy is

518
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: something where like the base often wants to do things

519
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 1: which are in fact based right to port grandmothers, separate children,

520
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: arrest students.

521
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 2: Students for writing op eds.

522
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,719
Speaker 1: That stuff is actually based locking up child sex predators.

523
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 1: That on both sides is you know, nobody cares what

524
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 1: they how they voted, just right, I mean.

525
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 4: And look if you give if you and I'm not

526
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 4: often want to do this. If you take the MAGA

527
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 4: base at their word that one of their big issues

528
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 4: has long been the presence in the world of child

529
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 4: sex trafficking. If they find themselves in a position where

530
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 4: it seems like that the rich child sex traffickers, as

531
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 4: Donald Trump said on the record, well there are many

532
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 4: people in there. Maybe it would ruin their reputations. Maybe

533
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 4: it's fake. Right, they don't believe this is fake. And

534
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 4: the DOJ is pretty good at accumulating and processing and

535
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 4: understanding evidence. And this evidence so far that has been

536
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 4: published in the Wall Street Journal, that has been talked

537
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 4: about elsewhere has not been proven to be fake, as

538
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 4: the Florida case demonstrated. His abuse of Epste's abuse of

539
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 4: young girls and young girls and young women. I know

540
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 4: there's a distinction between the two folks, because there are

541
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 4: a lot of people say when you say young girls

542
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 4: are young women, like, no, no, those young girls. It was

543
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 4: in fact both it was young women and young girls, yeah,

544
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 4: who were horribly exploited by this guy. He is a monster.

545
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 4: If you look at a world where Donald Trump seems

546
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 4: to be defending both his relationship with Epstein by trying

547
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 4: to minimize it and by trying to underplay the evidence

548
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 4: against other powerful men in those in those materials. But

549
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 4: it's a perfect recipe for the base to finally, after

550
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 4: a decade, have a crisis of conscious about this guy.

551
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: Right.

552
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 2: Well, I think there really are.

553
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 4: People who on the Mauga side. I'm gonna I'm gonna

554
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 4: give a brief piece of generosity in them. I think

555
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 4: there really are people on the Maga side who believed

556
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 4: in their hearts that there was a global child trafficking

557
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 4: and sex abuse ring and they wanted to do something

558
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 4: about it. And now they're finding out it was their guy.

559
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 4: I understand where they're at. It's hurt, It must hurt,

560
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 4: It must hurt a lot.

561
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 2: Rick Wilson, will you come back always?

562
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 4: My dear.

563
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: Tim Winer is the author of The Mission the CIA

564
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 1: in the twenty first Century and the Legacy of Ashes,

565
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: The History of the CII. Welcome to Fast Politics, Tim,

566
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: all right, So you've written this book about the CII

567
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: and really I think quite important the mission the CIA

568
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: in the twenty first century.

569
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 2: Where the CIA needs to go.

570
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: And I want you to talk to us first about

571
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: why you wrote this book.

572
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 2: So let's do that.

573
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: First.

574
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,719
Speaker 5: Eighteen years ago I published a book called Legacy of Ashes,

575
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 5: History of the CIA. That took the story from the

576
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 5: agency's inception in nineteen forty seven for the first sixty

577
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 5: years up to two thousand and seven. About three and

578
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 5: a half years ago, the CI told the world that

579
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 5: it had stolen Vladimir Putin's war plans for Ukraine. The

580
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 5: CI wasn't speaking directly, but scepturb of State and the

581
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 5: President did in the fall of two thousand and twenty one.

582
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 5: At that point, it was like lightning strike, and I thought,

583
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 5: oh gosh, after you know, two decades in which counter

584
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 5: terrorism has swamped everything, the CIA has returned to its

585
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 5: original mission, which is espionage. That's its unique mission. The

586
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 5: military can kill terrorists, the analysts at the State Department

587
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 5: before they were all fired last week, can do intelligence analysis.

588
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 5: But the CIA's job is espionage. That's recruiting foreigners to

589
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 5: be spies for the United States. And we'll talk a

590
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 5: little bit about that later. So I thought, let's go

591
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 5: back to the beginning of the twenty first century and

592
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 5: tell the story. You know, I set out to talk

593
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 5: to as many CIA officers, analysts, and veterans as I

594
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 5: could on the record, because that's how I rolled it.

595
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 2: And what did they tell you?

596
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 5: Well, no one person, certainly not me, knows everything that

597
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 5: has happened in the history of the CI. But everyone

598
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 5: knows their own story, whether it was working counter terrorism operations,

599
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 5: being a station chief in places like Damascus, doing analysis.

600
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 5: And not only do they know of their own stories,

601
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 5: they are explicit about the strengths and failings of their coming.

602
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 5: And you know, it's all about developing trust between the

603
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:25,479
Speaker 5: spy and the inkstained stride. And I've been at this

604
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 5: for thirty six years, and you know, we hang around

605
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:29,959
Speaker 5: along that people start to trust.

606
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: Now, the CIA is under very different leadership than it

607
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: was even in Trump's first term, right where he sort

608
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: of didn't cannibalize those agencies quite the way he is now.

609
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 2: So what is the mood like?

610
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 1: And also is the CIA able to perform its most

611
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:49,719
Speaker 1: basic functions.

612
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:55,479
Speaker 5: Donald Trump despises and disdains the CIA. When he speaks

613
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 5: of intelligence, he puts it in scare quotes. He has

614
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 5: called the opfice. There's nazis the stop book. He does

615
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 5: not read his intelligence briefings. He has put a MAGA acolyte,

616
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 5: John Radcliffe in charge of the CIA, and Radcliffe has

617
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 5: a track record going back to Trump's first term, where

618
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 5: he briefly served as Director of National Intelligence, of distorting

619
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 5: and twisting intelligence to please the president. He will tell

620
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 5: Trump what Trump wants to hear, and that is not

621
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 5: the job description of the director. Radcliffe has done enormous

622
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 5: damage in his six months in office.

623
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 1: So give me a second here on Radcliffe. He had

624
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,240
Speaker 1: some national security background, right.

625
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 5: He was a three term congressman who had briefly served

626
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 5: on the House Intelligence Committee.

627
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 2: Right, so very little.

628
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: And how is the way the CIA is being run

629
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 1: different than it was during Trump's first term? Or is

630
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 1: it not? I mean, you have a sycophant running it,

631
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:54,919
Speaker 1: but are there structural changes or now?

632
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 5: For most of Trump's first term, the CI was being

633
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:02,320
Speaker 5: run by Gena Hassell in CIA Operations Office.

634
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 2: More normal choice.

635
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, And the only thing that people knew about Gina Hospitally,

636
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 5: the only thing the public was that she had been

637
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 5: present at the CIA base in Thailand where terrorist suspects

638
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 5: were tortured, and that as the chief of Stack to

639
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 5: the head of the Clandestin Service at the time, she

640
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:24,280
Speaker 5: hit spand on an order that he mandated to destroy

641
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 5: the videotapes of the torture from Thailand. However, Radcliffe had

642
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 5: three decades under her belt as an operations officer and

643
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 5: a station chief in which he primarily ran operations against

644
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 5: for Russians. So when she took over CIA in twenty eighteen,

645
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 5: the agency's operations officers had launched what they call a

646
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 5: call to arms in response to the Russians monkey wrenching

647
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 5: of the twenty sixteen election delp Electro. And what happened

648
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 5: was that the chief of the Clandestin Service then called

649
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 5: in all his top operations officers, who at most of them,

650
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:01,760
Speaker 5: if not all of them, had spent the previous fifteen

651
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 5: years running counter terrors operation, that is, targeting terrorists. And

652
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 5: by targeting Molly, I don't mean putting warheads on forehead,

653
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 5: I mean identifying, you know, spying on them. Who are they,

654
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 5: where do they live, who are they want when they're oh?

655
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 4: Who do they love?

656
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 5: Who do they hate, with the aim of recruiting them

657
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 5: to service spies for the United States. And so the

658
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 5: head of the Class Plant Distant Service told these guys,

659
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 5: I want you to take the talents that you have

660
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 5: developed in targeting terrorists and turning on the Russian I

661
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 5: want you to recruit Russian spies, diplomats, oligards. And the

662
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,399
Speaker 5: end result of that was that in twenty twenty one,

663
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,280
Speaker 5: the CIA Anne traded the Kremlin instole Putin's war plans

664
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 5: for Ukraine. A remarkable accomplished Passpel in Trump's first term

665
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:51,720
Speaker 5: protected the CI from Trump's rat She left this operation flourish.

666
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 5: Despite Trump's obvious authentity for Vladimir Putin, it is highly

667
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,720
Speaker 5: likely that Trump never knew much about it, if anything

668
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 5: so in the last year of Trump's first term, first,

669
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 5: Trump put John Ratcliffe as the intelligence Star, the head

670
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 5: of the bureaucracy, as the Director of National Intelligence that

671
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 5: overseas all sposters. He also tried to kill Haul Gena

672
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,240
Speaker 5: Haspell and put Cash Battel in charge of the CIA.

673
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 5: The craft Pot lawyer Sidney Powell, he may recall.

674
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 2: From season one, is and.

675
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 5: Convinced Trump that Gena Haspell was part of the international

676
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,720
Speaker 5: conspiracy to steal the election from him. In twenty twenty

677
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 5: Haspell stood up to him and Trump back down, as

678
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 5: police will often turned coward. Now, in the second term,

679
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 5: Trump is utterly unleashed. The Supreme Court has ruled that

680
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 5: he cannot be prosecuted for crimes committed that office. And

681
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 5: he's put John Ratcliffe in charge of this PIA. He's

682
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,720
Speaker 5: put Pete Hegseth in charge of the Pentagon, Telseby Gabbard

683
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 5: in charge of the Intelligence Directorate, and Cash Battell at

684
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 5: the FBI, who is dismantling the national secut and intelligence

685
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:06,399
Speaker 5: direcords of the bureau. Bradcliffe at CIA has done half

686
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 5: a dozen things that are extremely destructive. Always some of

687
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:17,280
Speaker 5: them he ordered the CIA's diversity policies Keel Hall. Diversity

688
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 5: in spies is one of the CI's superpowers. It's how

689
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 5: you don't get caught if you want a spy in

690
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 5: China or Iran or Sudan. You know, it would be

691
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 5: nice to have spies American spies who look like the

692
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 5: people that they're trying to recruit, who speak the languages,

693
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 5: who know the culture of the country, and don't look

694
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 5: like you know, they just got off the bus from

695
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 5: the national meeting of the Association of Student Council Presidents.

696
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 5: You know, they don't look like white guys. To put

697
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 5: it bluntly, this was nuts. He is forcing out the

698
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 5: most experienced and senior officer. He fired everybody the CIA

699
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 5: hired in twenty twenty three and twenty twenty four on

700
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 5: account they were Biden hunters in the name of the

701
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 5: Doge Chainsaw massacre. He has instituted ideological purity tests of

702
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,720
Speaker 5: the CIA people who are being considered for senior ready

703
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 5: oras who really won the twenty twenty election. How do

704
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 5: you vote in the last election? What did you think

705
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 5: of the January sixth insurrection? This is crazy. Ideology is

706
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 5: the enemy of intelligence. You're an ideolog, Your mind is

707
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:29,879
Speaker 5: made up. You don't need backs. The consequence is that

708
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 5: the CI is bleeding talent, and people who remain there

709
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 5: trying to do their jobs, are keeping their heads down

710
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 5: unless they get chopped off.

711
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 4: Right.

712
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 2: What does this mean for intelligence right now? Is there

713
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:43,799
Speaker 2: intelligence collecting going on?

714
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, okay, but it may not be getting to

715
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 1: the right people, right? Is that more of the issue Trump?

716
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 5: When the US bombed the Iranian nuclear facilities, he immediately

717
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 5: declared that around his nuclear weapons program had been completely obliterated.

718
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 5: In this the intelligence finds, uh huh, that didn't happen.

719
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 5: They set them back in months, maybe a year or two,

720
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 5: but nothing was destroyed in totality. And when asked about this,

721
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 5: Trump says, I don't care what the intelligence says, and

722
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 5: when asked about it, Secretary of State Marco Rubio said,

723
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 5: forget about intelligence. Well, you could print forget about intelligence

724
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 5: on a banner and it from the walls in the

725
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 5: White House. Their minds are made up. This is a

726
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 5: very dangerous state of affairs. Molly. You've got amateurs and

727
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 5: toadies in charge of all the instruments of national security,

728
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 5: foreign intelligence services, foreign diplomats are very wary of sharing

729
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 5: intelligence with the United States, and CIA depends on its

730
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 5: liaisons with its foreign partners to be a global intelligence service.

731
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 5: The risks of a catastrophic intelligence fill, the risks of

732
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 5: a surprise attack are I think as high as they

733
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,839
Speaker 5: were in the months before none, and god forbid if

734
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,720
Speaker 5: the United States were struck again in some way at Homer,

735
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:01,879
Speaker 5: what do you think Trump would do if that happen?

736
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:07,399
Speaker 1: Nothing good? So is there anything that these people can do?

737
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 1: And also, do you think this means that members of

738
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 1: the intelligence community are going to be more likely to

739
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 1: leak to the media because it strikes me that the

740
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:21,320
Speaker 1: government is so against them. But this information is clearly

741
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: very important. So do we find ourselves in a moment

742
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:30,479
Speaker 1: where they obviously are doing actual important work. I mean,

743
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: they're sort of without choices.

744
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:39,399
Speaker 5: Right above the surface, Trump is destroying, dismantling America's alliances

745
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 5: and the architecture of American foreign policy that has been

746
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 5: erected since World War Two in large part to stop

747
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 5: Russian aggression. Right below the surface, station chiefs all around

748
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 5: the world will preserve, try to preserve their liaisons with

749
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 5: their foreign partner, regardless of what is happening, you know,

750
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 5: in public. The ideological courage at CIA and the subsequent

751
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 5: brain drain creates a number of problems. One is well,

752
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 5: I'll give you an example. The chief of the Clandestine Service,

753
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 5: the top spy, stepped down after traditional two years did

754
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 5: and unanimous choice of the spies to replace him was

755
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 5: a very talented operations officer named Ralph Goff. Sitstown station

756
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 5: chief had spent most of the past decade working for

757
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 5: Ukraine and against Russia. In retirement, he had been very

758
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 5: vocal in his supportive chief. When his nomination went to

759
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 5: the White House, Trump at sed it within hours. That

760
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,879
Speaker 5: is a very dangerous state of affairs, Molly. The job

761
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,399
Speaker 5: description of the CI director in the CIA is it's

762
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 5: a cliche, you know, to speak truth to power, But

763
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 5: if the man in the White House isn't listened, the

764
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 5: CIA has no purpose in an intelligence service in the

765
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,399
Speaker 5: hands of an auto craft is a very dangerous thing.

766
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 5: Past presidents have ordered c I'm thinking of primarily of

767
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 5: Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon, have ordered the CIA to

768
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 5: spy on Americans. That is illegal. It is outside the

769
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 5: CI's charters. A foreign intelligence agency, it has no police powers.

770
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 5: Past presidents have also ordered the CIA to overthrow democratic

771
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 5: elected governments that the president didn't like, and to attempt

772
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 5: to assassinate foreign leaders. It is all within the president's

773
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 5: hour to order the CIA to do that, despite edicts

774
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 5: against political assassinations and edicts against spying and Americans. If

775
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 5: God forbid, we were hit again, what would stop Trump

776
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:45,240
Speaker 5: for erecting secret prisons for American political enemies on our soil,

777
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 5: or declaring martial law for canceling elections. That is the

778
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 5: catastrophic internal threat that would happen from a catastrophic foreign

779
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 5: intelligence bility.

780
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it seems very likely.

781
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 1: Well, you have all these people who have spent their

782
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:08,280
Speaker 1: risk their lives trying to protect America. They are now

783
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,720
Speaker 1: considered to be enemies of the state by Donald Trump.

784
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 2: Are they leaving like this is?

785
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: They find themselves in very much a situation like many

786
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:17,839
Speaker 1: federal employees.

787
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 2: So what are they doing?

788
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 5: The CIA doesn't exist in total isolation out there in

789
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 5: the leafy excerps of Langley, Virginia. The CI is part

790
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 5: of the American national security establishment. It works with the

791
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:37,760
Speaker 5: State Department, which is being decapitated by the Secretary of State.

792
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 5: It works with the Pentagon, which is being run by

793
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 5: how can I put this politely Vale, a white Christian

794
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:48,799
Speaker 5: nationalist with a history of abusing women and drinking way

795
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 5: too much, who is incapable of running what is now

796
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 5: a trillion doctor a year organization. This guy couldn't run

797
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 5: a cocktail party for twenty Telsea Gabbard at the Director

798
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 5: of National Intelligence, who's in charge of the President's Daily brief,

799
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 5: among other things, is a conspiracy nut. And the CI

800
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 5: also works with the FBI on stopping Russian spies. They're

801
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 5: all being eaten away from within by the President of

802
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 5: the United States.

803
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 1: One of the bright spots I think is that there

804
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 1: has been reporting that Trump doesn't actually read the PDB,

805
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 1: so she could put anything she wants in there right.

806
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 5: The bright spots is that for all its flaws, the

807
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 5: CI still has thousands of people who are good at

808
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 5: their jobs of spying, collecting intelligence, and analyzing intelligence. If

809
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 5: they put out the most stellar intelligence reporting based on

810
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 5: expert espionage, so the president and doesn't read it, that's

811
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,919
Speaker 5: a real problem. The bright spot for me is that

812
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 5: god willingness will be over in three and a half

813
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 5: years and the next administration, if there is a next administration,

814
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 5: can we build the things that Trump has destroyed? It

815
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 5: will take years. I like to point out we're coming

816
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 5: up on our two hundred and fiftieth birthday in this country,

817
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 5: and I like to point out that no pre republic

818
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 5: in the history of civilization has lasted longer than three

819
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 5: hundred years, and that was the Roman Empire. I do

820
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 5: not wish to see the ball of America, but the

821
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 5: corruption of American intelligence would hasten its decline.

822
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, thank you.

823
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 4: Yeah.

824
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 5: Sorry to be all gloom and doom, but it's not pretty.

825
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 1: Everybody, that's everybody.

826
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 4: No moment.

827
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 6: Pfecly Jesse Cannon Smiley convicted felon denesh Tsuza, who's a

828
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 6: right wing agitator at best. Yeah, best does not really

829
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 6: concern himself with facts and anything but partisanship.

830
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 3: Usually. He shared an AI meme of Obama getting arrested

831
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:59,240
Speaker 3: by the FBI and has captioned it, We're getting past meantime,

832
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 3: this act needs to happen.

833
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:03,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, crazy whatever. I mean.

834
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 1: It's just this is the same as Trump being like

835
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,839
Speaker 1: they have to rename it the Washington Indians is the

836
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 1: exact same thing.

837
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 2: It's like the bait. We've got to get the base excited.

838
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 2: We have to get them jazzed up for fascism. Look,

839
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:20,240
Speaker 2: leave Obama alone. Okay.

840
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 1: One can only imagine how horrendous it was being the

841
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: first black president in this country and he serves his country.

842
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 1: This is I don't I actually kind of believe that

843
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 1: people should leave Obama alone.

844
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 2: You know, both on the left and the right.

845
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: He is a very popular figure, and it is extremely

846
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: helpful to have a popular figure like that. But I

847
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,720
Speaker 1: also think that, like, there are a lot of popular figures,

848
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 1: and I think one of the things that people don't

849
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:55,399
Speaker 1: totally understand about Obama, and I think about this moment too,

850
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 1: is that there really are there are a lot of

851
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 1: popular figures. There are people who breaking through and you

852
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:06,239
Speaker 1: may feel they're too progressive, but they exist and they

853
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: are in fact breaking through.

854
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 2: That's it for.

855
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 1: This episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday,

856
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 1: Thursday and Saturday to hear the best minds and politics

857
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 1: make sense.

858
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 2: Of all this chaos.

859
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 1: If you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a

860
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: friend and keep the conversation going.

861
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:29,800
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.