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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious Exim Triumph Channel

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Speaker 1: one two. One wife dead, one wife missing, two other

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Speaker 1: wives afraid to speak. I'm talking about the here and

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Speaker 1: the now, not some ancient story with multiple wives. I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about a police officer, a police officer that married

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Speaker 1: and divorced three times, his fourth wife now missing, seemingly

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Speaker 1: leaving behind her home and her children without a trace.

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Speaker 1: That's odd, isn't it? Still no resolution? And the missing

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Speaker 1: person report of Stacy Peterson Tonight answers on A and

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Speaker 1: E at eleven o'clock where Dan Abrams and I du

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Speaker 1: get out over Drew Peterson. I, Nancy Grace, this is

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Speaker 1: crime Stories. Thank you for being with us, with me

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Speaker 1: right now. Drew Peterson's defense lawyer Joel Brodsky, Cold Case

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Speaker 1: Research Institute director Cheryl McCollum, New York psychologist Dr Chloe Carmichael,

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Speaker 1: and WSB reporter Robin well Lynskey. Let's just kick it

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Speaker 1: off with Drew Peterson in his own words. Now, Stacy

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Speaker 1: Peterson goes missing. According to those close to her, she

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Speaker 1: desperately wanted a divorce and at the time she knew

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Speaker 1: his third wife, Kathleen Savio, was murdered by Drew Peterson.

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Speaker 1: Nobody else knew that. Listen to what Drew Peterson tells

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Speaker 1: Dr Phil Well. There have been many allegations that have

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Speaker 1: been made against Drew regarding Stacy, and allegation, accusation, whatever

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Speaker 1: you want to call it. Um. Now, you know, we

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Speaker 1: don't know if Stacy made these claims, but I have

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Speaker 1: a graphic here with some of them. Uh. First, Stacy's

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Speaker 1: family says Stacey told Drew she wanted a divorce shortly

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Speaker 1: before she disappeared. Is that true? No, she told me

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Speaker 1: she wanted a divorce. And I hate saying this, but uh,

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Speaker 1: the reality of it. She told me she wanted a

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Speaker 1: divorce once a month, So you're saying it it varied

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Speaker 1: with her minstrual cycle very much so. And I'm not

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Speaker 1: trying to be disrespectful a vance saying that if that

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Speaker 1: was a reality. There is an allegation or an accusation

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Speaker 1: that Stacy told a neighbor if anything happened to her

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Speaker 1: it was not an accident, that Drew had killed her.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that she actually said that to a neighbor.

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Speaker 1: I really have to question the credibility of the neighbor

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Speaker 1: because Stacey and I still even with her cultees, we

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Speaker 1: still had a very romantic relationship. If we still were

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Speaker 1: to gather a lot, we still spend time cuddling, that

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Speaker 1: type of things. So, Drew, if you had a romantic relationship,

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Speaker 1: if you were still intimate and affectionate and together with

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Speaker 1: one one another, how could she disappear and you not

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Speaker 1: dismantle the world looking for her. I don't know. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I think I've done all that I

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Speaker 1: can do and all I have the resources available to do.

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Speaker 1: But that defies common sense. I mean, if if if

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Speaker 1: you were in love with this woman, were you in

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Speaker 1: love with her when she disappeared, Yes, very much. So

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Speaker 1: are you in love with her today? I try to be,

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Speaker 1: but it's I'm having I have a lot of anger

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Speaker 1: issues about it now that she took off like she did.

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Speaker 1: She also said that, and I believe it's the same neighbor.

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Speaker 1: You probably no better than I, that you always called

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Speaker 1: and checked on Stacy, that you were very attentive and

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Speaker 1: in fact it got to the point of being controlling,

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Speaker 1: but that you were always calling to check up on her.

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Speaker 1: We were called calling each other. Yeah, So I don't

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Speaker 1: think it was a one way thing, and I was trying.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't trying to be controlling when you have a

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Speaker 1: real romantic relationship with somebody calling them all the time.

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Speaker 1: So it's also been alleged that Stacy told her sister

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Speaker 1: that she feared for her life. Do you believe she

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Speaker 1: said that to her sister? Again, I don't know. And

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Speaker 1: if she was trying to set me up for some

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Speaker 1: sort of divorce or anything, that might have been a

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Speaker 1: way to do it. In that you did have a

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Speaker 1: pattern of calling each other all the time. Why did

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Speaker 1: you not call her the day she disappeared? I didn't,

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Speaker 1: but she there was She wanted her space. She wanted

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Speaker 1: her space, So that day I gave her her space.

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Speaker 1: Because there are those obviously say you called her because

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Speaker 1: you didn't call her because you knew she couldn't answer.

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Speaker 1: But you're saying you didn't call her because you were

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Speaker 1: given her space. Correct. Did you ever get physical with her?

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Speaker 1: Did you ever attack her? Did you ever have a

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Speaker 1: physical fight. There was a physical confrontation where I cornered

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Speaker 1: her in the kitchen one time and she hit me

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Speaker 1: in the head with a frozen steak. But I didn't

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Speaker 1: retaliate or anything. Because her step sister says that you

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Speaker 1: threw Stacy down the stairs, knocked her into the TV,

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Speaker 1: and threw across the room. That never happened, should never happened. Never.

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Speaker 1: Why why are these people saying these things? I don't

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Speaker 1: know unless they're trying to add some sort of fuel

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Speaker 1: to the fire. You know what your step brother has

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Speaker 1: said that he says that he helped you move a

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Speaker 1: blue barrel that was warm to the touch. He told

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Speaker 1: friends that he thought after the fact that he actually

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Speaker 1: helped you move her body. That didn't happen. Was there

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Speaker 1: a blue barrel? No? Did he come over and help

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Speaker 1: you do anything? Move anything, do anything? Never that day.

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Speaker 1: I was with him the day before and I was

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Speaker 1: attempting to get him a job at a grocery store.

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Speaker 1: He just lost his job, and he was so intact

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Speaker 1: a cater or high on something that I had to

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Speaker 1: cancel the interview and we couldn't file through with it.

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Speaker 1: So he's not a reliable guy. I would say, no, Well,

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Speaker 1: the phone records show that you were near the Chicago

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Speaker 1: UH Sanitary and Ship Channel the day she went missing.

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Speaker 1: Were you there? Yes, I was driving through that area.

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Speaker 1: What were you doing there? I was looking for in

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Speaker 1: a couple of spots they thought that she might be,

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Speaker 1: and I was looking for my car that she was driving.

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Speaker 1: You just heard Drew Peterson talking to Dr Phil our

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Speaker 1: friend regarding a lot of points that are not lost

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Speaker 1: on prosecutors. My first point would be Sheryl McCollum, director

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Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute. Every time I would

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Speaker 1: try somebody for murderer, for anything for that matter, the

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Speaker 1: defense attorneys would say, she's just me because she's on

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Speaker 1: a period. I mean, you know, it doesn't matter what

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Speaker 1: you're doing, it's because you're on your period. But that

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Speaker 1: that's always what men claimed. Why is that? Here's what

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Speaker 1: interesting to me though, every time she's on her period,

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Speaker 1: all she asked for is the divorce. She's not crying.

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Speaker 1: She does want to get the hell away from you.

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Speaker 1: So back to me with the a pattern that he

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Speaker 1: would need to look at that it's not because of

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Speaker 1: her periods she wants away from you, you know. Uh.

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Speaker 1: To Robin Willinski joining me, ws BE investigative reporter Robin Willinski,

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Speaker 1: the claims that she wanted a divorce are overwhelming. But

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Speaker 1: we also know that at the time she goes missing,

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Speaker 1: she had been boxing up Drew Peterson's possessions to kick

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Speaker 1: him out and stacking them up in the garage. Robin. Yeah, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: she totally wanted out of this marriage. He's got a

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Speaker 1: very very long history of four wives, all who had

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Speaker 1: their period, all who really wanted away from him. His

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Speaker 1: first wife, Carold, was married six years. She claimed he

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Speaker 1: was a cheater. They got divorced. There was Vicky, who

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Speaker 1: said that he was abusing her and threatening her allegations

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Speaker 1: of course, and she told police, you know, after Stacy disappeared,

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Speaker 1: that Peterson threatened to kill her and make it look

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Speaker 1: like an accident. And oh, then there was Kathleen, who

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Speaker 1: he was married to for eleven years, who mysteriously dies

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Speaker 1: in a dry bathtub. I was there, by the way,

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Speaker 1: the day they dug her up at the cemetery. And

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Speaker 1: then of course there's Stacy, who was only nineteen and

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Speaker 1: Drew was what nine, and she wanted far away from him,

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Speaker 1: period or not. You know. Tonight on Grace Versus Abrams,

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Speaker 1: on A and E, we actually speak uh to his wife, Vicky.

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Speaker 1: She speaks out for the first time publicly, and it

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Speaker 1: is just it broke my heart speaking to her and

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Speaker 1: her daughter learning about life with Drew Peterson. But that's

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Speaker 1: a whole another can of worms. Dr Chloe Carmichael, new

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Speaker 1: York psychologist, joining me found of Anxiety tools dot com.

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Speaker 1: Dr Chloe. Isn't it true statistically, when women that have

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Speaker 1: been abused try to leave the relationship or get pregnant,

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Speaker 1: that's the highest incidence of their murders. Yes, Nancy, of

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Speaker 1: course that's absolutely true, because what that does is it

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Speaker 1: provokes anger on the part of the person that they're

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Speaker 1: attempting to leave, which is why I actually think it's

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Speaker 1: very interesting that this gentleman said that he was actually

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Speaker 1: very angry with with her. He said that he was

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Speaker 1: angry because she left, which may have even been what

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Speaker 1: she was planning to do. But of course we don't

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Speaker 1: know that she left, and really neither does heat, and

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Speaker 1: so it's very unusual for someone whose spouse is missing

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Speaker 1: to suddenly just say that they're angry with the person

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Speaker 1: for leaving, because anger put some distance between us, and

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Speaker 1: when you genuinely miss your spouse and didn't want them gone,

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Speaker 1: it's actually difficult to even connect with any feelings of anger,

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Speaker 1: even if they're appropriate. So the fact he's jumping to

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Speaker 1: anger with her in the case of someone who is

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Speaker 1: at best case missing, I think it's very unusual and

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Speaker 1: somewhat suspicious with me right now. You know his name

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Speaker 1: very well, renowned Chicago defense attorney Joel Brodsky. Let's just

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Speaker 1: say this isn't our first time in the boxing ring.

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Speaker 1: Joel Brodsky defending Drew Peterson at trial. His long time

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Speaker 1: defender Joel Brodsky was now, hold a minute. I've seen

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Speaker 1: many a photo of Drew Peterson and for him to

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Speaker 1: say the only physical incident they ever had was when

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Speaker 1: she Stacy hit him in the head with a frozen steak,

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Speaker 1: how'd you do that? Stand on ladder he towers over her.

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Speaker 1: I mean he would, Uh. That was his position was.

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Speaker 1: He never was physical violent with any of his wives,

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Speaker 1: and he would always his excuse always was that, well,

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Speaker 1: if if I, as a police officer, committed domestic battery,

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Speaker 1: I lose my job. So I would never do that. Um.

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Speaker 1: But you know, Drew was you know, trained, trained swat

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Speaker 1: train army officer. You know, if he wanted to resort

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Speaker 1: to violence, he could, you know, do it in a

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Speaker 1: way that wouldn't leave marks. He was an expert at that,

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Speaker 1: you know, from the all the training in the department

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Speaker 1: and the army that he had. Um, you know, I

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Speaker 1: I've I know that there was with Cathy. I know

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Speaker 1: that there was evidence of some physical altercations nothing. You know,

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Speaker 1: are you sure know how to put perfume on the pig?

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Speaker 1: What do you mean by physical altercations with Kathleen? Saw

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Speaker 1: later found dead drowned in the dry bathtub. What do

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Speaker 1: you mean physical altercation? You mean he beat her up? No,

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Speaker 1: they had a fight. Um that was on actually was

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Speaker 1: on videotape. Uh, Stacey actually taped it. Uh. You know

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Speaker 1: Cathy was very you know, very I went five acious.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she wouldn't back down from anything. So they

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Speaker 1: they went at it, but Drew was obviously so much

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Speaker 1: physically stronger. He pinned her to the ground. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: then the police came and charged them both with with

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Speaker 1: battery kind of cross charges. Um. But you know there

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Speaker 1: was no evidence of him ever by breaking bones or

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Speaker 1: or causing bloody noses or anything like that. Okay, well

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Speaker 1: what we wait? Hold on, Just Cheryl McCollum, have I

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Speaker 1: lost my mind? I mean, Cheryl, you know that for

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Speaker 1: nine years I volunteered at the Battered Women's Center at

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Speaker 1: night when I was prosecuting. Uh. Do you hear Joel

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Speaker 1: Brodsky still defending Drew Peterson. Uh, he says, well, there

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Speaker 1: was never a broken bone, but oh yeah, he pinned

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Speaker 1: to the ground. That was caught on video. Hello, it'll

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Speaker 1: be a cold day in h e double all. My

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Speaker 1: husband pains me to the ground and the police are

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Speaker 1: not called. Okay, that ain't gonna happen, Cheryl, what happened?

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Speaker 1: I feel like I went down the rabbit hole. Here's

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Speaker 1: the deal. The devil take many forms, and the reality

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Speaker 1: is a nineteen year old girl was married to a

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Speaker 1: forty nine year old man and that was nothing about

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Speaker 1: but control. And he abused his money with her, his

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Speaker 1: emotions with her, his sex with her, his physical being

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Speaker 1: with her. There's no doubt that every one of his

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Speaker 1: four wives was abused in some ways. Drew was not

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Speaker 1: about to let anybody get his money. They weren't gon

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Speaker 1: touch his retirement. Okay, jumpion. Joel Drew was very controlling,

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Speaker 1: very control. I mean, there's no question he was very

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Speaker 1: controlling of all his wife. They all said that he

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Speaker 1: would moonitor them, electronically follow them. You mean the GPS

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Speaker 1: track round got on my husband is wrong. Just kidding. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's not true. Why did I say that, Joe Brawski.

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Speaker 1: It would is the defense for Drew Peterson. His wife

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Speaker 1: Stacy just goes missing in another thing that he said.

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Speaker 1: We just heard him tell the dctor. Phil was the

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Speaker 1: brother in law, was a drinker. He was this, he

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Speaker 1: was that that didn't happen. He didn't help him get

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Speaker 1: rid of Stacy's body in a blue cooler. But they

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Speaker 1: were caught on video together that night driving through a Starbucks.

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Speaker 1: So the night Stacy goes missing, So how can he

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Speaker 1: say they weren't together. I've I've watched the video. The video,

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Speaker 1: I don't don't think that was before he gave that interview,

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Speaker 1: before he charges had been brought, so, um, we never

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Speaker 1: he had never seen the video at that point. He

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Speaker 1: didn't know they had that of it. Joel, you know

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Speaker 1: what you should consider professional dancing? Because you just danced around.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna call it dancing with the stars. You need

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Speaker 1: to be there, buddy, Joel, I didn't ask you. Did

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Speaker 1: the vin Starbucks video come to light after his statement

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Speaker 1: to Dr Phil. You're just saying, yeah, he lied because

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Speaker 1: he didn't know about the video. That what you're saying,

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Speaker 1: I mean he obviously liked because he didn't know he

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Speaker 1: was he had been caught. Um. You know, uh, if

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Speaker 1: if you knew about the video, he would have altered

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Speaker 1: the story in some way. I'm sure made up a

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Speaker 1: different line. Julie, how do you stand yourself? Help me out.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying not to use such a direct language, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure he wouldn't have said that if he knew

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Speaker 1: that there was evidence to the contrary. Uh. But you

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Speaker 1: know Drew was building, was you know, making this uh,

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Speaker 1: trying to tell a consistent story about what happened to

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Speaker 1: Stacy to keep with that. Um, his position that she

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Speaker 1: ran away, that was his his story from day one. Uh,

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Speaker 1: that she ran off with some other guys. D He's

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Speaker 1: never wavered in his story. Robin Willinski ws B. Let's

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Speaker 1: start at the beginning. We know she married him when

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Speaker 1: she's nineteen, he's forty something. What happened around the time

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Speaker 1: of Stacy's disappearance. As of right now today, she has

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Speaker 1: never been seen again. The theory of Drew Peterson and

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Speaker 1: his lawyer with us right now. High profile lawyer out

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Speaker 1: of Chicago, Joe Albrowski is that she took off to

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Speaker 1: be with her boyfriend. So what happened? Tell me the

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Speaker 1: events around her disappearance, Robint. She was, she was very angry,

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Speaker 1: she wanted out of the marriage. And you know, the

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Speaker 1: one thing we have not mentioned so far Nancy, is

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Speaker 1: the fact that that she was so Stacy was super

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Speaker 1: petique and she could have fit in that barrel very easily.

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Speaker 1: And there were reports at the time when I was

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Speaker 1: down in Bowling Brooks that he had access to a

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Speaker 1: small plane, and there was one theory that the bowling

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Speaker 1: Brook Police and detectives were working on at the time

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Speaker 1: that he had flown the plane and that he could

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Speaker 1: have dropped the barrel into a forest area. And there

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Speaker 1: were many searches at the time looking for that barrel.

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Speaker 1: It had never been found in the forest, never been

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Speaker 1: found at anybody of water. But she clearly Nancy could

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Speaker 1: have fit in that barrel. They had a very tumultuous relationship.

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Speaker 1: She wanted out and the next thing you know, she disappeared.

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Speaker 1: She disappeared and has never been seen again. F y I.

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Speaker 1: Right now we know that money has run dry, and

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Speaker 1: Stacy's sister has actually launched an effort to raise money

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Speaker 1: on a go fund Me site to continue the search

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Speaker 1: for Stacy Peterson's body. Her sister, also, like me, believes

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Speaker 1: that Stacy is dead. Go to go fund me and

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Speaker 1: look for help me bring Stacy Peterson home. Help me

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Speaker 1: bring Stacy Peterson home at go fund Me. Now what

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Speaker 1: we do know now, Joel Bradsky, his defense lawyer, is

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Speaker 1: not going to admit to this, okay, is that he

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Speaker 1: has a brother in law apparent from one of his

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Speaker 1: other marriages, showed up, was called over to Peterson's home

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Speaker 1: that night and helped him carry a very heavy blue

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Speaker 1: cooler out that was warm to the touch. And to

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Speaker 1: this day that brother in law, who later tried to

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Speaker 1: commit suicide, says he thinks he unwillingly helped dispose of

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Speaker 1: Stacy's body. Her disappearance and or death still unresolved. But

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Speaker 1: I'll give you a little sneak peek about what's happening tonight.

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Speaker 1: Here is Joel Brodsky rightnowed defense attorney and Dan Abrams,

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Speaker 1: and I are asking you just a few very polite questions.

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Speaker 1: We are here with Joel Brodsky. So you know where

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Speaker 1: the body is. You know where the body is? You said,

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Speaker 1: you know where the body is. I said, I know

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Speaker 1: what happened. So what happened Tonight? We uncover new witnesses

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Speaker 1: and new evidence to shed light on the disappearance. And

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Speaker 1: I believe the murder of Stacy Peterson. It's A and

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Speaker 1: E tonight eleven o'clock eleven o'clock PM. Please join us.

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Speaker 1: This wasn't boys being boys. This was murder of our son.

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Speaker 1: You sink your whole life into your children. Um, you

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Speaker 1: work for them, you save for them, you try to

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Speaker 1: make sure they eat the right things, and they get

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Speaker 1: enough sleep. And the dream that they go to a

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Speaker 1: great college and somehow and in your mind that ensures

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Speaker 1: that things will be okay for them and they'll they'll

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Speaker 1: have a good life. Right well, this teen boy, a

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Speaker 1: star football player and honors student, dead at pen State.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, not by a knifing, not a gunshot wound,

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Speaker 1: not a mugging in the parking lot, not a crash.

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Speaker 1: His so called brothers forced him to run a quote

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Speaker 1: gauntlet until he dies, and they let him lay there,

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Speaker 1: according to grand jury testimony, with blows to the head,

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Speaker 1: a ruptured spleen, as eighty percent of his body's blood

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Speaker 1: drained into his abdomen, he bled out into his own

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Speaker 1: stomach twelve hours. He lay there until he died. In

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Speaker 1: the last days all charges, Ah, the major charges dropped

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Speaker 1: straight out to John Limley Crime Stories investigative reporter. Let's

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Speaker 1: just take it from the top. What can you tell

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Speaker 1: me about Tim Piazza. He lived the better part of

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Speaker 1: his life before he went off to college in Reddington Township,

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Speaker 1: New Jersey. That was his hometown. Uh. He was a

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Speaker 1: graduate there of Hunterdon Central Regional High School. He played

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Speaker 1: foot ball, was on the spring track team. He took

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Speaker 1: part in shot put, javelin, and discuss. He was a

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Speaker 1: very involved student as well. He participated in the school's

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Speaker 1: team prevention education program. He volunteered to help kids teach

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Speaker 1: special needs children's football, basketball, in baseball. UH. He was

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Speaker 1: a sophomore engineering student at Penn State University, where he

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Speaker 1: was on the executive board of a special interest organization

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Speaker 1: that benefited a Penn State Dance Marathon, a charity there.

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Speaker 1: He loved spending time with his family, especially during the

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Speaker 1: summers when they went to the beach. Friends went along

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Speaker 1: on that as well. Uh, jet skiing, playing golf, taking

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Speaker 1: in maybe a pick up hoop in friendly basketball games.

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Speaker 1: He was said to be smart, funny, friendly, and really

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Speaker 1: just a kind guy. You know, I'm overwhelmed at not

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Speaker 1: only what happened to him, but an alleged cover up.

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Speaker 1: I want to take it from before I go to Z.

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Speaker 1: I want to start at A. We're talking about a

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Speaker 1: teen boy, Tempianza, an athlete, and an honor student. What

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Speaker 1: happened at night We know in the last hours of

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Speaker 1: Pennsylvania judge just misses nearly three hundred charges in the

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Speaker 1: penn State fraternity hazing death. I've been looking this judge up.

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Speaker 1: I've been scouring everything I can find out to Alan

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Speaker 1: Duke joining me out of l A. You know, Alan,

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Speaker 1: I've been looking high and low. Looks like the judge

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Speaker 1: that throughout all these charges related to Timothy piazzas not

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Speaker 1: even a lawyer. I mean I looked up his two

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Speaker 1: thousand seventeen bio that was in the paper, and in

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Speaker 1: his own bio it doesn't mention a law degree or

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Speaker 1: a law practice or anything. And I then looked up

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Speaker 1: the statutes regarding a magistrate judge in that jurisdiction and

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Speaker 1: it says a law degree is not required, that you

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Speaker 1: can take a quote class a prep class, and you

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Speaker 1: can be a judge many states. Yeah are Remember in Georgia,

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Speaker 1: back when I was in college, I thought about wanting

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Speaker 1: to be a probate judge, just part time because you

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Speaker 1: did not have to have a law degree. You could

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Speaker 1: just get back then back Yeah, Well things have changed. Alan.

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Speaker 1: Now when you make legal decisions like throwing out three

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Speaker 1: hundred of the most serious charges when a boy has

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Speaker 1: been found dead, you would like a legal mind to

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Speaker 1: throw out legal charges. I mean, okay, I'm getting ahead

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Speaker 1: of myself again. Wendy Patrick, California Prosecutor. I want to

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Speaker 1: go through the facts as they relate to the charges.

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Speaker 1: So that night Tim Piazza is he's joining a fraternity,

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Speaker 1: All right, what do we know happen to Wendy? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well I think you you summed it up pretty well

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Speaker 1: earlier when you talk about the crime versus the cover up.

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Speaker 1: So it's hard to prove and that's not the prosecution's

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Speaker 1: theory that the Eternity brothers intended for him to die.

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Speaker 1: So then what we do, as you and I have

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Speaker 1: done many times in corrid, is we look at the

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Speaker 1: standard of reckless disregard and did the cover up? And

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Speaker 1: I think that's a great way to put it in

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Speaker 1: cases like this, did that kill him? Did that contribute

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Speaker 1: to his death? That they obviously knew he was badly injured,

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Speaker 1: yet did nothing. And that's the kind of standard that

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Speaker 1: many courts that sustained murder convictions across the country every

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Speaker 1: single day. But that apparently, according to the judge, was

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Speaker 1: lacking here and that, as you say, and as Alan

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Speaker 1: eloquently put it, that's really the outrage is should that

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Speaker 1: person have been qualified to make a call when you

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Speaker 1: actually have a young person that is dead, well, when

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Speaker 1: she's talking about a cover up and Troy Slate and

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Speaker 1: I know you've got a response to that, but I

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Speaker 1: want to hear the facts, John Limley, he goes to

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Speaker 1: the party that night, this team boy a February night

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Speaker 1: and was forced to walk the gauntlet. What's that? Well,

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Speaker 1: this is required of each and every pledge. It's an

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Speaker 1: obstacle course of sorts which requires the pledge to drink

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Speaker 1: first a bottle a complete bottle of vodka, drink a beer,

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00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 1: and finally drink from a bag of wine. Now that

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00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 1: would be enough to knock out most fellows around the

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00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 1: age of twenty or so, but it was later revealed

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Speaker 1: that Piazza took prescription antidepressants, which just accelerated his intoxication. Um.

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Speaker 1: And here's another key, uh little fact in the piece

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00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,439
Speaker 1: and the puzzle. The fraternity was supposed to be alcohol

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00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 1: free after a suspension just a few years before that.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know that fact. I do know this. I

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Speaker 1: know his blood alcohol was about point three six. That

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00:25:54,840 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 1: is the normal. The legal limit is point o eat.

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Speaker 1: He was forced to have eighteen drinks vodka, eighteen vodkas

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Speaker 1: in eighty two minutes. You would walk down a gauntlet

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Speaker 1: of guys, fraternity brothers, all of them holding vodka, and

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Speaker 1: you have to drink it till you get to the

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Speaker 1: end of the line. Like one of those dance lines.

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Speaker 1: Dr Tiffany Sanders. Dr Tiffany joining Me psychologists out of Chicago,

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Speaker 1: You know where you go down the line and people

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Speaker 1: are on either side and you dance down the line.

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Speaker 1: Instead of dancing, you'd have to take all the vodka

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00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: they were holding and drink it. And that's running the gauntlet.

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Speaker 1: Eighteen drinks in eighty two minutes, point three six. That's

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Speaker 1: blood alcohol poisoning levels. But that was just the tip

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Speaker 1: of the iceberg. Dr Tiffany. Then he gets blows to

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Speaker 1: the head and lays there to the point his skull

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00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: was fractured, and nobody does anything. Dr Tiffany. He lays

427
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: there dying. Nancy. I remember one of the largest African

428
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 1: American supporties in the kind Tree and hazing has been

429
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 1: on the forefront of many of these organizations minds because

430
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: of the loss of UH members and pledges over the years.

431
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 1: And a sorority and a fraternity is about relationships, sisterhood's, brotherhood's.

432
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 1: Uh sure, there's sometimes fun until he pranks that people

433
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 1: get involved in, but alcohol poison. I know that some

434
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 1: of these kids are wise enough to be aware that

435
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: drinking that much alcohol is going to have destructive effects.

436
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: So it's very sad to hear that a young man,

437
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: impressionable joining the organization looking to his future brothers for

438
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: support and guidance, is leading him down a destructive and

439
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 1: an unfortunately uh deadly path. So as a member of

440
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 1: a sorority, I'm surprised and sadly shocked at this. Well,

441
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: to me, a bigger concern is that it's happening over

442
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 1: and over again, and it doesn't seem to be stopping

443
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 1: and getting verse the hazing deaths. What more do we

444
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,959
Speaker 1: know about that night? Joseph Scott Morgan joining me, expert

445
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: in forensics, Professor of Forensics at Jacksonville State University, Joe Scott,

446
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: what do we know? Well? As you had well stated, Nancy,

447
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 1: he had he had alcohol poisoning. Uh. And what we

448
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 1: refer to this in medical legal terms is alcohol toxicity

449
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: or ethanol poisoning, and it's incompatible with life. You couple

450
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: that with these blows that he received to the head,

451
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 1: and as you had mentioned, he had had some abdominal

452
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: trauma to which caused him to slowly bleed out. If

453
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: he has this much alcohol in his system, Nancy, Uh,

454
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 1: there's not going to be an awareness that he is

455
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: in distress. If all of these other people in this environment,

456
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: um have a diminished response because they're all inebriated, they're

457
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 1: not going to seek help. And I think probably Um.

458
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: The the term that rings in my mind relative to

459
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: this that's come up is the word apathy and um

460
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: that they just didn't care, Nancy. And in these kinds

461
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: of critical conditions, you have to have people that care,

462
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: people that have an awareness that you know, he he

463
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: could have been saved in my opinion, Nancy, but it

464
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: would have had to have begun uh with getting him

465
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 1: to the hospital in as shorter order as possible. They

466
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: let this kid languish on the floor all of this

467
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: time until he just died at their feet on that

468
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: filthy floor. Jesse's Got Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University.

469
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 1: What exactly medically were his injuries as discovered in autopsy? Well,

470
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: he had a last ratted spleen. He also had a

471
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: closed head injury, which is going to create uh oh,

472
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: my stars. I woke up in the middle of the night,

473
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: Joe's got Morgan thinking about a cl closed head injury.

474
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: I don't know why. I guess it's a hazard of

475
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: the business. I was thinking about closed head injuries, particularly

476
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: as they relate to infants. A closed head injury simply

477
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: is when you get shot in the head that's not

478
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: closed yet. Closed head injuries when your for instance, hit

479
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: in the head and from the outside you can't really

480
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: see a laceration or a gunshot one you can't, but

481
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: the lethal injury is inside the head. Sorry, Joe Scott,

482
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: you just jogged a midnight memory. Go ahead, Yeah, and

483
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: what what happens in these events nancies, when you have

484
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: this so called closed head injury can be precipitated by

485
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: blow to the head, which this child obviously and he's

486
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: a child that he obviously sustained with pactured skull. You're

487
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: not going to be able to see this externally, so

488
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: it's not like there's gonna be blood all over the floor.

489
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: Where that blood is going, though, Nancy, is that it

490
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: is encasing the blood encasing the brain and causing cerebral swelling,

491
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: which means swelling of the brain. And the brain is

492
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: essentially being strangulated, and the brain is heavily depended upon

493
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: being oxygenated. The more you choke it down with internal

494
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: or intracranial pressure, that means the pressure around the brain.

495
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: That means that it's being choked. The life is literally

496
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: being choked out. And this takes a period of time.

497
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: And this would have been quite obviously at autopsy. I'm

498
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: sure that when they opened this child's head up at autopsy, uh,

499
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: blood literally came pouring out, uh, clots and clots of blood.

500
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: I've seen this a number of times in cases over

501
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: the years. You will have also have seen the same

502
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 1: thing in his abdomen he's got internal injuries, and that's

503
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,959
Speaker 1: their internal so there's not gonna be like a knife

504
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: wound where he's spouting blood everywhere gunshot wound, as you

505
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: had mentioned. His this blood is building up, so he's

506
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: got blood that is essentially strangulating all of his organs,

507
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: and his cavities are just filling up with it. And

508
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: it's a horrible, horrible way to die. The way he

509
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: hurt his head was trying to leave and falling backwards,

510
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: falling down, falling downstairs, one blow after the next, after

511
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 1: the next. I'm not sure how he gets the lacerated

512
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: spleen though, just Scott, how do you get a lacerated spleen?

513
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: Do you get that from falling downstairs? That seems kind

514
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: of hard to believe. Well, in in my experience, when

515
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: you have abdominal trauma, and most of the time, you know,

516
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: our abdomen is kind of soft and it's it's relatively

517
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: protected most of the time. In my experience, I've seen

518
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: abdominal trauma in one of two ways, either from being

519
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: kicked or being in a motor vehicle accident. Requires a

520
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of of of pressure, direct pressure to that

521
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: specific area I've never seen someone fall down a staircase

522
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: and sustained abdominal trauma like that unless they, you know,

523
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 1: impale themselves. And of course that's a closed and I

524
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: mean open injury. The head injury is easily explained in

525
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: falling down staircase multiple times and having multiple strikes. So yeah,

526
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 1: that is within the realm of possibility. But abdominal trauma,

527
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 1: it's hard for me to buy that. Falling down a

528
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 1: staircase it was for me too. It was for me too.

529
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: What does the video show. We find out later that

530
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: a lot of video was deleted, But what does the

531
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: video show as far as him getting the head injuries?

532
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 1: John Limley, Well, in the state of intoxication, as we've noted,

533
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: he fell to the bottom of the basement stairs of

534
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: the house, knocked unconscious. Uh. This is when he's carried

535
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 1: to a couch, and this is where we received the

536
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: first UH surveillance video of You can clearly see the

537
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: formation of a large and obvious bruise on the left

538
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: side of his abdomen. UH. One of the brothers, in fact,

539
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: a fellow pledge, tried to convince the other guys that

540
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 1: Piazza needed immediate medical help at that point, but he

541
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: was just shoved aside, completely ignored. UM. A little bit later,

542
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:13,320
Speaker 1: Tim regained consciousness, he rolled off the couch and three

543
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: of these UH fraternity brothers picked him up and slammed

544
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: him back onto the couch. UH. This is when security

545
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 1: footage shows the brothers slapping Piazza in the face, I guess,

546
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:31,359
Speaker 1: trying to waken him up, punching him in the stomach, which,

547
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: as we've noticed, noted he already had some sort of

548
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 1: injury to the abdomen. Pouring beer on him. UM, he

549
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,479
Speaker 1: remained unconscious, he didn't respond at all. He rolled off

550
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 1: the couch again, curled his body and clutching his abdomen.

551
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: At this point, m okay, Troy Slayton, it seems to

552
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,280
Speaker 1: get worse because what happened with me is Troy Slayton,

553
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 1: high profile lawyer, defense lawyer out of l A. His

554
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: name pops up all over the country in high profile cases. Troy.

555
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 1: This is what's to me damning evidence. And I just

556
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 1: don't know how to judge the quote air quote judge

557
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: throughout these charges. But what we learned is the whole

558
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:21,839
Speaker 1: thing was videoed, and after Tim of the Piazza had

559
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: been lying there. People were actually walking over his body

560
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: who's at the foot of the steps, and that's on

561
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 1: the video. And he has also seen being thrown onto

562
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:37,879
Speaker 1: a sofa, slam down, and he is completely comment dose,

563
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,720
Speaker 1: and they are filling up book bags full of books

564
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: and laying on top of him so he won't fall off.

565
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: They're slapping him in the face. And then we find out, Troy,

566
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: that they start searching on their cell phones for alcohol poisoning,

567
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: drank too much alcohol, body, cold, body stiff. I mean,

568
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 1: give on, Troy, when somebody's body is cold and stiff,

569
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: it's time to call nine one one. Just because something

570
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 1: horrible happened, just because there was a tragedy that resulted

571
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:17,240
Speaker 1: in somebody's death, doesn't mean that every single person around

572
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: is guilty of crimes, is guilty of involuntary manslaughter. You

573
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 1: said that his blood alcohol level was point three six,

574
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 1: several times over the state's legal limit, Yes, the legal

575
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 1: limit for driving. And nobody was driving here, nobody was

576
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 1: putting them behind the wheel of a car. And are

577
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 1: we to be completely shocked that young college freshman and

578
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 1: sophomore were drinking, that some freshman had handed another freshman

579
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 1: some beer. Is that totally shocking and should that be

580
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: a crime that, if somebody dies, results in the additional

581
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: tragedy of every single person who was around going to

582
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:09,760
Speaker 1: jail for decades. The judge sat here for days and days.

583
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: It was a preliminary hearing of unprecedented length, and found

584
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:18,800
Speaker 1: that the prosecution was unable to prove probable cause for

585
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: the most serious charges, but he did hold them to

586
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: answer for what was appropriate, some alcohol related charges for

587
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: giving their friends some alcohol. I don't want to see

588
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: it as a parent because I feel like it's going

589
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 1: to be incredibly painful and the last memories of my

590
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: son will be him being abused for twelve hours and

591
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: dying a slow and painful death. Straight back to John Linley,

592
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,760
Speaker 1: Crime Stories, investigative reporter, What can you tell me about

593
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: deleting the video when the cops show up, detectives arrived?

594
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: What about who deleted video they did not want police

595
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: to see? Who cleared out their cell phone text messages?

596
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: What can you tell me about that? John Limley? There

597
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 1: was the scury of activity in the UH. We think

598
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: it was maybe forty minutes or so of debating what

599
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: the next step should be after he was carried upstairs

600
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 1: for the last time. The conclusion was made that Piazza's

601
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: injuries were indeed serious, that he would require medical attention,

602
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 1: and so panic set in. They started, you know, not

603
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: only sort of trying to shore up their collective story,

604
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:42,959
Speaker 1: but also making sure that any evidence of text back

605
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 1: and forth, because early in the evening someone had texted

606
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 1: another brother and said, look, this looks pretty serious. I

607
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 1: think this is going to be a problem. Um. So

608
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 1: they spent quite some time trying to delete from their

609
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:04,280
Speaker 1: own devices from the security system before emergency assistance arrived.

610
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 1: The brothers even tried to clean Tim himself up. They

611
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: wiped blood from his face, attempted to dress him, but

612
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: as you've already mentioned, his body was rigid. Uh, it

613
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 1: was too rigid to even put clothes on his body. Rigid. Okay,

614
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: Joe's got Morgan. The body is rigid, Yes, yes, And Uh,

615
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 1: what this indicates is that rigor mortis had had begun

616
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 1: to set in in this in this child. And this

617
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: takes a number of hours for for a body to

618
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 1: attain what we refer to as rigidity. Uh. Generally you

619
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 1: only see it come about in the small muscles of

620
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,839
Speaker 1: the face and that's that's within you know, I don't know,

621
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: maybe maybe about an hour and a half. But if

622
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 1: you're talking about the limbs, the arms, legs, this sort

623
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: of thing, we're talking about a huge time delay here, Nancy.

624
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:00,959
Speaker 1: A tremendous amount of time, as a matter of fact,

625
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 1: way beyond what would be considered reasonable. Take a listen

626
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 1: to what the prosecutor announced. The Commonwealth is prepared today

627
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,439
Speaker 1: to announce new charges. And these charges are a direct

628
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: result of new evidence in this case. For those of

629
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 1: you that are familiar with the situation and the death

630
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 1: of Tempiazza Um, we have new evidence and that evidence

631
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 1: is if you have been following it, Um, the State

632
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 1: College Police Department was indeed able to recover the basement

633
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: video in this case, and as a result of the

634
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: conduct on that video, we are today announcing the filing

635
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: of new charges from brothers from this fraternity. These charges

636
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 1: raine range from manslaughter to hazing and also charges for

637
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 1: the actual affirmative deliberate deletion of that video, which obviously

638
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: pertained to Um capturing criminal conduct. So charges were filed

639
00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 1: in the case, all right, In the last hours we

640
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,840
Speaker 1: learned that charges have now been dropped and this is

641
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 1: the way it went down. As I understand that Wendy

642
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:08,280
Speaker 1: Patrick California prosecuted with me. The state file the charges

643
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,800
Speaker 1: before this judge, who we believe doesn't have a law degree,

644
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,320
Speaker 1: got to keep searching for that one has not turned

645
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: up no matter how much we look. So the judge

646
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 1: throws out a ton of charges. Okay. They then find

647
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 1: out about the deleted video where the fraternity brothers delete

648
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 1: the video of what Piazza went through in the twelve

649
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 1: hours before he's pronounced dead or before nine one one

650
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 1: is even called. They delete all that it's found. The

651
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 1: state uses that and files new charges. It goes back

652
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: to the judge, and once again the judge throws out

653
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 1: the charges after days of preliminary hearings. Take a listen

654
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 1: to Tim's father. We'd like to thank the district Attorney

655
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 1: and the State College Police for their continued commitment and

656
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 1: efforts and finding justice for our sub Tim stuff. Tim

657
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 1: wasn't happy and caring human being in a wonderful son

658
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 1: who just wanted to join an organization to find friendships

659
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: and camaraderie. Instead, he was killed at the hands of

660
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: those he was seeking friendship from. We have spent the

661
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 1: past eight months wondering how can this happen on the

662
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: campus of Penn State. The visions of him lying in

663
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 1: the hospital bed, battered and bruised and on life support,

664
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:30,800
Speaker 1: looking as if he got hit by a tractor trailer

665
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 1: make no sense. He was just trying to join an organization.

666
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 1: Over the last several months, we listened to defense arguments

667
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: centered around victim blaming, or how could the defendants have

668
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: known they were putting someone seriously seriously at risk since

669
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 1: no one died before, as if they were entitled to

670
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 1: one free death, or the catch all argument of we

671
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:57,800
Speaker 1: don't know. They claimed, we don't know what else happened

672
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 1: other than what was seen in the upstairs video, and

673
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 1: we don't know what happened in the basement. Guess what, guys,

674
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 1: now we know we're making holiday plans without our son

675
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 1: Tim because of your actions. If you did not commit

676
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 1: the acts you did, we would not be here today,

677
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: and would we be We would be anxiously awaiting Tim's

678
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 1: return home for Thanksgiving break on Friday. That is Temperance's father.

679
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,240
Speaker 1: You know I'm looking right now, Jackie pulled it up again.

680
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 1: This is the one I found. Is Judge Allen Sinclair, Sinclair.

681
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 1: Judicial experience magisterial district judge, and I was a clerk

682
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,280
Speaker 1: for a federal magistrate judge. He did have a law degree,

683
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: and it says other experience. He worked in juvenile division

684
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 1: in the probation office. Then education. He went to Shippensburg University.

685
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: I checked. They don't have a law degree. He has

686
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: to be a criminology from Indiana University, Pennsylvania. So I

687
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:04,280
Speaker 1: don't see anything there about a law degree. Troyce Layton

688
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 1: l a defense lawyer. That doesn't bother you, judge and

689
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 1: the laws, the law, and because you didn't get the

690
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 1: result that you may have wanted, you don't go attacking

691
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 1: the entire legal system. Nancy. I'll tell you this much.

692
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,399
Speaker 1: If it were my child. And as he said, Joe

693
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, did you hear that that he looked like

694
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,240
Speaker 1: he had been hit by a semi truck trailer? Yeah?

695
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: I did, Nancy, Absolutely brutal reminder of what was left

696
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:36,959
Speaker 1: behind of your child after you send them off to college. Uh,

697
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 1: and just they're put through a meat grinder. But why

698
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,760
Speaker 1: why would he be covered head to toe in bruises?

699
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,320
Speaker 1: I don't understand that, Joe Scott I don't need either, Nancy. Uh,

700
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 1: you know, the falling down the staircases thing. Uh, you know,

701
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: and think about what else they're doing to him. I

702
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 1: believe uh, someone had said earlier they were stacking books

703
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: on top of him, uh, to keep him from falling

704
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: off of the sofa. You've you've got this pack of

705
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:07,320
Speaker 1: of kids that are huddled around him. They're racing stuff

706
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: off a videotape. Who knows what was going on and

707
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 1: and what's missing? What the real story is here, Nancy?

708
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 1: We do know this as kids dead. He's got a

709
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: closed head injury, and he's got severe injuries to his abdomen,

710
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: and he's been poisoned with alcohol. Because that's what this

711
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: comes down to. When you say alcohol poison What do

712
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 1: you mean by that? I mean that Let's let's look

713
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 1: at it this way, Nancy. His but the normal the

714
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 1: normal level for legally drunk to operate a vehicle is

715
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: zero point eight. If I remember correctly, his is is

716
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 1: at point three. Oh, this is in lethal range. You

717
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,280
Speaker 1: start to get up above if I remember correctly, above

718
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 1: about a one point eight. You're already domist point where

719
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 1: you can't even string sentences together. It's it's at that

720
00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: point that that the alcohol has now made it's incompatible

721
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 1: with life as we like to define it. Your your

722
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: brain can no longer function, You have no motor skills whatsoever.

723
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 1: It will literally throw you into a comatose state. We

724
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: are we know who's that is that, John Lemley, Go ahead, John, Yes, Uh,

725
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: we know that, Nancy. That He continued before he was

726
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 1: carried upstairs that last time to try to stand up

727
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:27,320
Speaker 1: to get out of there, he kept falling back down. Uh.

728
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 1: He tried once to go towards the lobby area of

729
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 1: the house. He fell there, hit his head into an

730
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 1: iron railing and then landed on a stone floor, which

731
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: that's probably where the most serious head trauma took place.

732
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 1: He got up from that, tried to reach the front door.

733
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 1: He fell head first into it, knocking himself unconscious again.

734
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 1: He later even tried one more time to go down

735
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 1: those basement stairs, fell down again and remained at the

736
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 1: case of the stairs until several of the fraternity brothers

737
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 1: discovered him several hours later. And this is when he

738
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: was already cold and had a rapid breathing pattern. You know,

739
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 1: I've noticed that it seems to me after reviewing everything.

740
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:22,000
Speaker 1: There have been accusations against Sinclair making errors of law

741
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 1: in this case before. It's the district attorney then d A.

742
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 1: Stacy Parks. Miller says, the courts failed miserably in the

743
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 1: handling of the Beta Theta pie case. That's this case.

744
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: So it seems to me that this has been an

745
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:40,359
Speaker 1: ongoing problem with this particular judge and Troy Slayton. It's

746
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,439
Speaker 1: not that I'm judge shopping. I just think dropping these

747
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 1: charges is wrong, and I think it should go to

748
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: a jury to decide. The judge is supposed to serve

749
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,839
Speaker 1: as the gatekeeper. Not every single charge that a prosecutor

750
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 1: wants to bring gets to go in front of the jury.

751
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 1: The judge gets to decide whether or not there is

752
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 1: probable pause to hold these people to answer. And just

753
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: because something horrible happened doesn't mean that everyone around him

754
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: is guilty of these crimes. Now, where does a person's

755
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 1: individual responsibility come into place? Nobody was holding his head down.

756
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 1: He wasn't being held down strapped down to a table

757
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 1: and alcohol being poured into his mouth. He had a choice.

758
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 1: He had a choice to be there. He had a

759
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 1: choice to be involved in that fraternity when they were drinking.

760
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: He had a choice to leave if he wanted to.

761
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 1: I mean, nobody was was When you say he was

762
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 1: poisoned by alcohol by Joe Scott Morgan, Yeah, he was

763
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 1: poisoned himself by alcohol. That doesn't mean everyone around him

764
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,839
Speaker 1: is guilty of involuntary manslaw. I still have a problem

765
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 1: with them standing by after they fed him the alcohol

766
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 1: and the pure pressure to go down the gauntlet and

767
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: let him die, and they knew and then they helped him,

768
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 1: then they helped him onto it. They didn't help him,

769
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:11,240
Speaker 1: and they tried, they hurt him. I mean, Wendy Patrick,

770
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 1: how can that be viewed? I know Troy Slaves trying

771
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 1: to argue they helped, but they knew the way they

772
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 1: acted was wrong. They deleted the video and cleared out

773
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:25,320
Speaker 1: all their Google searches of body cold, stiff, too much alcohol.

774
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:27,919
Speaker 1: They knew what they had done was wrong. That's right.

775
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:29,359
Speaker 1: And you know this is all going to be great

776
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 1: fodder for the no doubt, the wrongful death action because

777
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:36,800
Speaker 1: you're right, it's a supposedly alcohol free fraternity. They're probably

778
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:39,399
Speaker 1: scared to death that they've created the situation and then

779
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 1: know that they've made it worse by the way they

780
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:45,280
Speaker 1: treated the body after this child had suffered the injuries

781
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:48,799
Speaker 1: that he did. And so even if Troy's argument would

782
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 1: hold water at the front end perhaps when it all started,

783
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 1: it's still circumstantially when you look at what those fraternity

784
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 1: brothers did, or better yet, both did and failed to do.

785
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 1: That is what the prosecutors were relying on for this

786
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 1: involuntary manslaughter charge. And you know, I note that procedural

787
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 1: history of this case as well. After those charges were

788
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 1: not sustained, they actually refiled them once and still failed

789
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 1: to sustain those charges. And it's true the judge cannot

790
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 1: take to the airwaves and defend himself and the rational

791
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 1: offers ruling. We're still left with that record and all

792
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,799
Speaker 1: that went on during that unprecedented eight day preliminary hearing.

793
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but I've never been in

794
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:28,879
Speaker 1: a prelim in twenty years. The lasted eight days and

795
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,959
Speaker 1: still failed to find the kind of evidence that boy

796
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 1: the victim's father really made the closing argument for manslaughter

797
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 1: that we wish that we were going to be able

798
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 1: to hear. Nonetheless, we'll probably hear it in the remaining

799
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: charges as well. Just a heartbreaking set of circumstances. Is

800
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:46,759
Speaker 1: there anything now, Wendy Patrick, Well, it looks like they've

801
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:51,240
Speaker 1: exhausted the options legally available to them, barring new evidence

802
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,360
Speaker 1: being unearthed. And that's always what we look at, is

803
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,919
Speaker 1: will something surface that nobody knew about before we saw

804
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 1: that already once with the video that would result old

805
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 1: in in new charges, whether it's a charge of getting

806
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 1: rid of evidence or something else, conspiracy maybe something, but

807
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 1: it would need to be based on new evidence because

808
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 1: what they have thus far has been shot down, not once,

809
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:14,239
Speaker 1: but twice. Is there any way they can appeal this

810
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 1: magistrate's ruling? Well, based on what I've been reading so far,

811
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 1: like everybody else, they've really thought through almost every avenue

812
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,839
Speaker 1: available to them legally, and if one comes available that

813
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:28,839
Speaker 1: would sustain that kind of an appeal, you bet they will.

814
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 1: They have been relentless and passionate about pursuing justice for

815
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 1: this young man. If there is a way to appeal it,

816
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: I think that they will. For now. Listen to Timothy

817
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:44,240
Speaker 1: Piazza's parents, this wasn't boys being boys, This was murder

818
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 1: of our son. They tortured him for twelve hours, They

819
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 1: let him suffer for twelve hours. He died a slow

820
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:56,319
Speaker 1: and painful death at the hands of of of these

821
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 1: men of principle, as as they call it. He was

822
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 1: just an awesome an individual, and we're a little worse

823
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,959
Speaker 1: off as a world without a minute. Nancy Grace Crime

824
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 1: Story signing off goodbye friend, h.