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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Bridget and this is Annie, and you're

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Speaker 1: listening to stuff mom never told you. And today we

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Speaker 1: have an update about one of my favorite people. Some

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Speaker 1: of you guys might disagree, and that is Queen Bay,

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Speaker 1: none other than Beyonce. Are you a Beyonce fan? Oh? Yes,

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Speaker 1: I went. I saw her concert. I think it was

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Speaker 1: last year. It's one of my biggest regrets is that

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Speaker 1: I took my now ex boyfriend to it because he

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Speaker 1: could have cared less. But also, when I'm running, I

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Speaker 1: have a great memory of like it was a half

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Speaker 1: marathon and I was really getting low on energy and

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Speaker 1: then a Beyonce song Formation came on and it was

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Speaker 1: like Popeye eating the spinach, Like my legs just took

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Speaker 1: all hell. Yes. Another another good Beyonce running song is

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Speaker 1: um Girls who Run the World Girls. That's a good one.

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Speaker 1: If I'm running to that song, I feel like I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna break into like like I'm gonna like break a

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Speaker 1: car window or something. I'm gonna like, you know, throw

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Speaker 1: a trash can through a bank window. It's I know

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Speaker 1: the feeling, Bridget, I know exactly the feeling. So Beyonce

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Speaker 1: and jay Z are doing there on the run tour

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Speaker 1: right now. It's been pretty huge. Like I wasn't able

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Speaker 1: to go because I was traveling unfortunately, but a bunch

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Speaker 1: of my friends went. I was seeing all the all

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Speaker 1: the Instagram content and I was losing my mind to

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Speaker 1: people who I really love went, that is Michelle and

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Speaker 1: Barack Obama. They were captured really like getting down without

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Speaker 1: a care in the world to Beyonce this weekend in

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Speaker 1: d C. Also, Michelle went to the Parish Show as well.

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Speaker 1: Yes she did. Oh fun fact that means that me,

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Speaker 1: Beyonce and Michelle Obama were all in Paris breathing Parisian

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Speaker 1: air at the same time. Just f y. I I

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Speaker 1: think that means you're best friends? Now, I think I

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Speaker 1: mean that's math. That's just how math works. So another

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Speaker 1: interesting Beyonce update is that she's basically breaking barriers all

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Speaker 1: over the place. It was reported this week that she's

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Speaker 1: going to be on the cover of Vogue's upcoming September issue.

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Speaker 1: If you know what that means, it's a whole documentary

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Speaker 1: called the September Issue. Basically for Vogue, that is the

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Speaker 1: most important issue of their magazine that they put out

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Speaker 1: all years. So it's the important one and it's also

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Speaker 1: rumored to be Anna win towards the last one, right,

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Speaker 1: so that's a pretty big deal. Yeah, it's it's huge,

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Speaker 1: like like in the fashion world, that can't be overstated

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Speaker 1: what a big deal this is. And it's basically pretty

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Speaker 1: unprecedented because Beyonce, it's quote contractually obligated to have full

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Speaker 1: creative control over her cover, from the styling to the photographers,

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Speaker 1: which again that's really really really unusual. If anybody can

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Speaker 1: set that kind of precedent, it's Beyonce. Yes, and per

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Speaker 1: the Huffington Post, Beyonce hired the first black photographer to

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Speaker 1: shoot a cover in the publications one and twenty six

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Speaker 1: year history, which is awesome but again one of those

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Speaker 1: sad first when you think about it, Yeah, you're thinking

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Speaker 1: a d twenty six years really and a lot of

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Speaker 1: those years were under and win tours, you know, leadership,

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Speaker 1: so kind of it's good, but it's one of those

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Speaker 1: things that just makes you think, like, oh, wow, it's

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Speaker 1: taken this long. And this is actually something that I

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Speaker 1: really admire about Beyonce is that she does a good

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Speaker 1: job in my opinion, of like helping other creatives get

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Speaker 1: the spotlight and so you know, when she she's mega famous,

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Speaker 1: she will often do little things to help other talented creatives,

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Speaker 1: you know, come up as well. So I'm thinking of

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Speaker 1: folks like her band, like Beyonce tours with an all

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Speaker 1: female band called the Sugar Mamas, and so, you know,

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Speaker 1: touring and playing with Beyonce, danceing with Beyonce is a

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Speaker 1: big deal. If you can give that that platform to

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Speaker 1: someone else, it's it's a huge thing. Um. There's also

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Speaker 1: this really great poet worse On Shire. Her work she

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Speaker 1: spotlighted in Lemonade, and she really blew up overnight, like

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Speaker 1: getting this sort of Beyonce, you know, saying really really

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Speaker 1: sort of solidified her as a bigger name in poetry. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: I would be remiss to not mention that it does

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Speaker 1: not always go that well. Beyonce actually set up a

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Speaker 1: lawsuit with the estate of a New Orleans YouTuber and

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Speaker 1: comedian name Messy Maya. Messi Maya was this sort of

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Speaker 1: comedian who was known for his outspoken YouTube videos, and

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Speaker 1: she sampled if you if you've heard the song formation,

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Speaker 1: the very beginning of that song is actually a brief

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Speaker 1: sample of one of messew Maya's YouTube videos, So it

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Speaker 1: sounds like this what happened at the New Orleans. I'm back.

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Speaker 1: I'm popular of them. Yeah, I almost. I was like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna I love Beyonce so much, I'm not

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Speaker 1: gonna include this. I don't want to. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to smear her good name. But you know, it just

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Speaker 1: goes to show that all of our faves are are

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Speaker 1: problematic faves. This is true. Bridget so um Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: enjoy this Christen and Caroline unpacking of Beyonce. If we're

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Speaker 1: going to on the run, I'm very jealous of you.

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Speaker 1: Please tag me in your pictures. Hello, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we

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Speaker 1: are talking about Beyonce's Yeah, and the last night before

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Speaker 1: we came into the studio, I posted on Facebook that

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Speaker 1: we were going to talk about Beyonce and solicited listeners

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Speaker 1: thoughts on her because we're specifically talking about Beyonce and

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Speaker 1: feminism in their response at least as a book. Right

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Speaker 1: before walking into the studio was so perfect because there

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Speaker 1: was someone who was all about Beyonce saying, yeah, she's

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Speaker 1: fantastic and really great for girls and super empowering, and

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Speaker 1: another woman who was just staunchly against Beyonce. I think

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Speaker 1: she's a total phony when it comes to feminism. Doesn't

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Speaker 1: like the way that she dresses and how bootylicious she is.

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Speaker 1: And then another woman who said Beyonce, they're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about Beyonce. Really, I feel like that Facebook snapshot

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Speaker 1: just sums up the Beyonce spectrum. Yeah, I um, I

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Speaker 1: do not surprisingly follow anything that Beyonce says or does.

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Speaker 1: I had kind of been aware on the periphery that, like,

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Speaker 1: she had expressed some stuff about being a feminist or

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Speaker 1: about feminism in general, and I hadn't really given it

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Speaker 1: much thought because I just tend to take everything that

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Speaker 1: pop stars of any ILKs say with a grain of salt, right,

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Speaker 1: and so I just didn't bother to like look up

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Speaker 1: anything that she had said. And as I was reading uh,

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Speaker 1: as I was reading her words that she had pinned

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Speaker 1: for the Shriver Report and reading stuff about her album

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Speaker 1: and her lyrics, I mean there was a part of

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Speaker 1: me that was admittedly impressed. I mean, you don't typically

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Speaker 1: see young female pop stars these days owning the word feminist,

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Speaker 1: and here she is calling herself one talking about equal

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Speaker 1: pay for equal work men needing to demand equal pay

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Speaker 1: for the women in their lives, etcetera, etcetera. So that

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Speaker 1: that by itself, like in a little microcosm, like, that's impressive.

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Speaker 1: But um, I think personally that the debate over Beyonce's

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Speaker 1: feminism is the more interesting part of this topic, not

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Speaker 1: necessarily Beyonce and her feminism or not itself. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: completely agree this. This podcast isn't so much meant to

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Speaker 1: be the Beyonce biopic by any means, but more because

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Speaker 1: the blogosphere almost collapsed in on itself around Christmas, right

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Speaker 1: after she dropped her secret visual album on December right

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Speaker 1: before midnight, and everyone was just spinning their wheels saying,

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Speaker 1: oh my goodness, she's citing a you know, feminist thinker,

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Speaker 1: and she's using the word feminism. But she's doing this

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Speaker 1: since she's crawling around on the floor, And what do

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Speaker 1: we think about Beyonce. Is it a feminist manifesto like

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Speaker 1: Melissa Harris Perry says it is, or is it just

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Speaker 1: the same old stuff being cater you know, catering to

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Speaker 1: the male gaze. What do we make of this? And

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Speaker 1: so many people we're just talking talking about Beyondce and

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Speaker 1: feminism Beyonce and feminism that I felt like, yeah, we

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Speaker 1: should talk about it, especially because to someone made a

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Speaker 1: good point in one of these essays where it's like

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Speaker 1: it's worth talking about because Beyonce has a massive following

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Speaker 1: of girls, very few of whom are probably taking women's

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Speaker 1: studies classes, you know what I mean? Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: and you know, christ and I were talking about this,

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Speaker 1: and I was telling her that I think that anytime

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Speaker 1: young girls and and really women, anybody uh is exposed

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Speaker 1: to the idea of feminism, the word feminism, the definition

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Speaker 1: of it, the the culture surrounding it, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think that's such a positive thing. And so if, yes,

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Speaker 1: so if this pop star brings feminism into people's lives,

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Speaker 1: I think that's positive. Well, before we get into Beyonce

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Speaker 1: and feminism, I just want to offer a quick timeline

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Speaker 1: of Beyonce's rise to Beyonce Dum because it's really I mean,

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Speaker 1: she's sort of in her her own galaxy at this point.

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Speaker 1: So it all started really though, in when Beyonce was

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Speaker 1: simply known as another member of Destiny's Child. This is

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Speaker 1: way back when, you know, even a little bit after

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Speaker 1: the star searched days her dad's her manager, her mom's

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Speaker 1: making all of Destiny's Child's costumes. Um. And what was

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Speaker 1: interesting to me was the same year the Destiny's Child

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Speaker 1: and drops its first album, you have Lauren Hill becoming

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Speaker 1: the first female artist nominated for and winning the most

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Speaker 1: Grammys in a single night for her Miseducation of Lauren

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Speaker 1: Hill album. So some interesting synchronous lily there. And then

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Speaker 1: she goes solo in two thousand three when she's twenty one,

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Speaker 1: with the album Dangerously in Love and Uh. I found

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Speaker 1: a New York Times review of the album and it

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Speaker 1: was headlined solo Beyonce, She's no Ashanti, which kind of

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Speaker 1: made me feel old because I laughed just like that.

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, yeah, Shanty. But it was interesting though,

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Speaker 1: because even back then, with that first album, the reviewer

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Speaker 1: was talking about how Beyonce sort of carved out this

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Speaker 1: identity of being this fiercely independent woman, whereas a Shanty

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Speaker 1: was maybe suffering career wise because she had always been

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Speaker 1: attached to this group of male rappers and was sort

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Speaker 1: of always a little bit of an accessory to them,

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Speaker 1: whereas Beyonce has always kind of been yeah, even in

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Speaker 1: the dusty Child days, Yeah, she she really never hitched

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Speaker 1: her wagon to a male star. Yeah, how do you

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Speaker 1: like that? Although except jay Z, well yeah, jay Z uh.

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Speaker 1: And that will obviously come up in this conversation about

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Speaker 1: her feminism because in two thousand and eight she marries

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Speaker 1: jay Z, same year she releases Sasha Fierce. UM. Two

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Speaker 1: thousand twelve, daughter Blue Ivy is born, and in two

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Speaker 1: thousand thirteen, it's kind of the year of Beyonce. She

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Speaker 1: does the Super Bowl. MS magazine put her on the cover,

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Speaker 1: and people freaked out, and not in a good way,

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Speaker 1: because I think the cover headline was something along the

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Speaker 1: lines of Beyonce and her fierce feminism, and I just

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Speaker 1: I saw some screenshots from the Miss magazine Facebook page

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Speaker 1: and people people weren't happy. Women were not happy about that. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then yeah, just before midnight December, Beyonce the visual

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Speaker 1: album drops on iTunes and then you know, breaks a

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Speaker 1: ba jillion sales records. Yeah, insanity ensues, I mean absolutely,

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Speaker 1: m So let's let's talk about Beyonce and feminism. Caroline, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she uh. She had given some quotes to people, one

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Speaker 1: of those people being British Vogue, and she'd also talked

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Speaker 1: to g Q and said things about being like kind

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Speaker 1: of a feminist, like feminist in a way, and so

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Speaker 1: a lot of people when all of this this Beyonce

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Speaker 1: feminism rigmarole started after her album came out and after

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Speaker 1: she pinned an essay for The Shriver Report. UM, a

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Speaker 1: lot of people were saying, like, look, she can't even

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Speaker 1: claim the term, like she's not you know, she's just

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Speaker 1: wearing her booty shorts and dancing around. She's not a

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Speaker 1: real feminist. Um. But she told British Vogue that I

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Speaker 1: guess I am a modern day feminist. I do believe

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Speaker 1: in equality. Why do you have to choose what type

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Speaker 1: of woman you are? Why do you have to label

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Speaker 1: yourself anything. I'm just a woman and I love being

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Speaker 1: a woman. I do believe in equality and that we

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Speaker 1: have a way to go, and it's something that's pushed

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Speaker 1: to except. And when that quote, you know, it hit

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Speaker 1: the blogosphere again because I feel like a lot of

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Speaker 1: this conversation is you know, really lives largely on the internet. Um.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people were kind of disappointed in it

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Speaker 1: by the fact that she seemed reluctant to claim feminism.

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Speaker 1: She seemed to qualify it a little bit and also

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Speaker 1: doing that thing of someone. I mean when it comes

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Speaker 1: to image management, Beyonce is Queen b for sure, and

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Speaker 1: you can kind of hear echoes in that of saying, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, why do I need to label myself? Can't

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Speaker 1: I be a woman? I'm you know, I mean that's

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Speaker 1: that's that to me is something that a woman who

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Speaker 1: it makes money off of her image is going to say.

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Speaker 1: So I can understand that kind of that kind of nervousness. Maybe. Well,

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Speaker 1: but then when she was talking to g Q, on

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Speaker 1: whose cover she was photographed, you know, wearing like an

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Speaker 1: to call a crop top would be generous, she was

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Speaker 1: wearing like this almost boobearing shirt and like teeny tiny panties,

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Speaker 1: and but inside she gives the quote about feminism and

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Speaker 1: about how it's ridiculous that we that men are shaping

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Speaker 1: women's images and what is sexy and what it's feminine. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's clear from what she says that

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Speaker 1: she she's she knows what's up. She knows about the

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Speaker 1: male gaze and sexual objectification, and how could she not

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Speaker 1: being as successful as she is as a pop star.

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Speaker 1: I think that you only need to watch maybe one

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Speaker 1: of her videos to kind of figure that out. And

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Speaker 1: she you know, I mean, she fired her dad as

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Speaker 1: her manager in two thousand eleven. She's like, she wholly

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Speaker 1: owns her empire at this point. Um. But with that

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Speaker 1: latest album Beyonce, it's like it was kind of her

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Speaker 1: feminist coming out parties. Some think you could at least

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Speaker 1: say that with a couple of tracks. Sure, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean she has songs cover the danger of obsessing about

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Speaker 1: your looks, about women receiving sexual pleasure and liking to

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Speaker 1: receive sexual pleasure, and it being okay for feminists to

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Speaker 1: like it. She even delivers I didn't really, I just

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Speaker 1: I was like, what is she saying? In French? What

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Speaker 1: is this? I did not realize she was delivering Julianne

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Speaker 1: Moore's big Lebowski monologue about women and feminist liking sex. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the translation is men think that feminists hate sex, but

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Speaker 1: it's a very stimulating in natural activity that women love.

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Speaker 1: This though, is in the middle of a song all

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Speaker 1: about I think it's off a partition where it's all

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Speaker 1: about how she and jay Z can't even get to

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Speaker 1: a party or the club that they're going to because

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Speaker 1: they're doing it in the back of the limo. Not

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Speaker 1: to be crass, but I mean it's it's pretty explicit. Hey,

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Speaker 1: when that happens, I'm like, I just need to get

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Speaker 1: to work. Well, then one of the lines of the

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Speaker 1: song is it took me forty five minutes to get

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Speaker 1: dressed and we're not even going to make it there

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Speaker 1: because we can't keep our hands off each other. And

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Speaker 1: she does talk about how in that song, especially how

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Speaker 1: she wants to be the girl that he wants jay

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Speaker 1: Z wants. I mean, that's so easy. Well, she also

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Speaker 1: does address marriage and relationships being hard, that it's okay

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Speaker 1: to have problems and doubts and you know, should we

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Speaker 1: get married, blah blah blah, all that stuff, and she

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Speaker 1: even says that she talks about being more than quote

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Speaker 1: just his little wife. Yeah. And in Flawless to which

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Speaker 1: I think of what got a lot of people talking

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Speaker 1: the most about Beyonce in feminism, she has a line

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Speaker 1: in the beginning of the song talking about how you know,

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Speaker 1: just because she might refer to herself as Mrs Carter,

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Speaker 1: don't basically don't get it twisted. This is all her stuff,

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Speaker 1: this is her business. Right. But that song also features

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Speaker 1: the much talked about speech. It was actually a TED

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Speaker 1: talk by Nigerian born writer Chimamanda Negozi Adici uh talking

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Speaker 1: about feminism and the definite of feminism. But how she

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Speaker 1: Adici would amend that definition to include some more things. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so for just a little SoundBite of what Beyonce

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Speaker 1: samples from that Ted talk. We teach girls to shrink themselves,

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Speaker 1: to make themselves smaller. We say to girls, you can

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Speaker 1: have ambition, but not too much. You should aim to

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Speaker 1: be successful, but not too successful, otherwise you will threaten

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Speaker 1: the man, she says. We teach girls that they cannot

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Speaker 1: be sexual beings the way boys are. Feminist as a

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Speaker 1: person who believes in the social, political, and economic equality

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Speaker 1: of the sexes. And meanwhile, you know, in this video

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Speaker 1: Beyonce is I mean, she's she's just like dancing and

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Speaker 1: she's so angry and like making just like she's so fierce.

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Speaker 1: Is so overused these days, I feel like, but she's

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Speaker 1: fierce in that video as this you know, woman is

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Speaker 1: going on and on about feminism. So people are like,

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Speaker 1: what whoa, Yeah, this is revolutionary. But then other people

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Speaker 1: being like, but she's gotta just you know, booty shaken, right,

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Speaker 1: And then you know, we talked about how she had

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Speaker 1: pen and essay for the Shriver Report, which is Maria

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Speaker 1: Shriver's website, in which Beyonce talks about how equality doesn't exist,

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Speaker 1: but it will be achieved quote when men and women

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Speaker 1: are granted equal pay and equal respect, and she talks

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Speaker 1: about how attitudes about women being less than are drilled

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Speaker 1: into our heads from an early age. So a common

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Speaker 1: refrain that our podcast listeners would be familiar with. But

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Speaker 1: one thing too that jumped out to me was that

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Speaker 1: she used her legal name in that essay, which is

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Speaker 1: Beyonce Carterinals. She's not Mrs Carter, as was the name

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Speaker 1: of her world to war that she also got a

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Speaker 1: lot of flak about that we'll talk about too, But

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Speaker 1: you know it's an intentional hyphenation, right, Well, I mean

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Speaker 1: jay Z that's his legal name now too, Yeah, Seawn

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Speaker 1: Cardinals as a jay Z Carter. Yeah, that's that's the name, right,

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Speaker 1: jay z Um. But as all of this is happening

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Speaker 1: in you know, December routine and the first of this year,

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Speaker 1: this just sparks all of this debate and like you said, Caroline,

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Speaker 1: the conversation about debate and the fact that we're talking

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Speaker 1: about it in the way that we're talking about it.

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Speaker 1: When I say we am going to say feminists at large,

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Speaker 1: not that we represent all of them by any means, um,

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Speaker 1: but these conversations, I think are say a lot about

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Speaker 1: modern feminism, and it's worthwhile to look into the substance

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Speaker 1: of these conversations, almost Beyonce's side, but not Beyonce's side. Um.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to talk about this, this debate and

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Speaker 1: the people who say, absolutely, Beyonce plus feminism equals amazing,

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Speaker 1: and the people who say, Nope, sorry, Beyonce, you are

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Speaker 1: you're not cutting it. When we come right back from

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Speaker 1: a quick break and now I'm back to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: So before the break, we were just walking you through

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Speaker 1: the development of this really humongous, explosive internet conversation basically

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Speaker 1: about Beyonce and her feminism and how genuine it is,

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Speaker 1: because basically the argument boils down to, no, she's not

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Speaker 1: a real feminist. It's just marketing and pr so she

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Speaker 1: can make more money and get her name in the news.

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Speaker 1: And no, she's totally a feminist. And not only is

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Speaker 1: she a feminist, but she's advocating for empowerment and equality

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Speaker 1: for women, particularly women of color. Yeah, I mean, and

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Speaker 1: on the yes side of the argument, I mean, you

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Speaker 1: can go to I mean, there are plenty of feminists

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Speaker 1: who automatically uphold Beyonce as an incredible, amazing, empowering icon,

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Speaker 1: pop icon and now feminist icon because she is as

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Speaker 1: successful as she is, because you know her, she is

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Speaker 1: so fearlessly bears her body and owns her business and

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Speaker 1: you know, sing songs about independence and I mean, off

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Speaker 1: the you know, most recent album, Beyonce, you have songs

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Speaker 1: like pretty Hurts, whereas she's acknowed colledging that even though

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Speaker 1: she is Beyonce and looks like Beyonce, body image is

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Speaker 1: still something that affects us all. And what better person

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Speaker 1: do hear something like that from then Beyonce? You know right, yeah, Elean.

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Speaker 1: A document from Time magazine talks about how Beyonce is

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Speaker 1: singing about love and sex more boldly than ever, peppering

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Speaker 1: those songs with messages about independence and motherhood, and we're

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Speaker 1: eating it up. You know, these are things. Beyonce is

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Speaker 1: a figure who is supposedly showing uh, young girls and

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Speaker 1: women that it is okay to be a vibrant sexual

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Speaker 1: being and be a mother and be a wife, but

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Speaker 1: also be that independent woman that you want to be.

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Speaker 1: And Doctuman also talks to about how she kind of

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Speaker 1: represents a generational divide perhaps in feminism where some people

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Speaker 1: might not be so on board with it, because in

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Speaker 1: a way, she's her own type of feminist. Doctuman writes,

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Speaker 1: we millennials are not of the traditional generation of feminists

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Speaker 1: who believed that a woman needs a man like a

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Speaker 1: fish needs a bicycle. Yeah, and so Drman talks about

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Speaker 1: how Beyonce is sort of at the forefront of this,

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Speaker 1: this younger generation of feminists who maybe aren't fighting against

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Speaker 1: the idea of I don't know men, of relationships, of marriage,

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Speaker 1: of the traditional bonds of motherhood, all of that stuff.

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Speaker 1: Maybe she's not fighting against that so hard. Maybe she's

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Speaker 1: just fighting for equality, and she's fighting for it in

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Speaker 1: her own way. So there are plenty of people on

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Speaker 1: on this side of the conversation saying, go Beyonce, Beyonce

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Speaker 1: for the win. But then there are also plenty of

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Speaker 1: people saying, even based on this most recent album in

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Speaker 1: which Yes Fantastic that you sampled Chimamanda Negozia Dici. But hey,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about drunk in Love and something that jay

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Speaker 1: Z says in that and that she also sang along

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Speaker 1: with when they opened the Grammys. Yeah, so his part

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Speaker 1: in that song, he he says, I'm Ike Turner, now

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Speaker 1: eat the cake and m a And for those not aware,

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Speaker 1: that is from a scene in the movie What's Love

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Speaker 1: Got to Do With It about Tina Turner, and basically

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Speaker 1: Ike Turner is shoving literally shoving cake in her face.

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Speaker 1: It's a moment of you know, terror when he's basically

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Speaker 1: abusing her in public. And so a lot of people

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Speaker 1: are left like, basically, you know, the record scratched for

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Speaker 1: a lot of people, like what A lot of people

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Speaker 1: are saying, that's just part of the song. It's just

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Speaker 1: it's just music, you know, let it go. But there

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Speaker 1: are other people who were saying, how can you call

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Speaker 1: yourself a feminist but condone your husband's singing about spousal

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Speaker 1: abuse in your song? Yeah? I mean. And and for

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Speaker 1: people who haven't heard Drunken Love, first of all, you

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Speaker 1: probably heard Drunken Love, and they might not have realized

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Speaker 1: it from the outside. The first time I listened to it,

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Speaker 1: and I wasn't aware of that line or and especially

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Speaker 1: not with that lineman. I was like, well, Beyonce and

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Speaker 1: jay Z, I mean, talk about an argument for a

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Speaker 1: married couple because they are having sex in a bathtub

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Speaker 1: and she is making surfboard references and riding waves and

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Speaker 1: I feel like I can't even talk anymore about it

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Speaker 1: on this podcast. Um. And in a way, it's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: good for them. They're a married couple with a kid

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Speaker 1: and they still have crazy nights together, so what's wrong

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Speaker 1: with that? But then yeah, the record scratch so loudly

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Speaker 1: for me. Once someone actually tweeted at me about this line,

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh no, And this is when it

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Speaker 1: gets in. We started getting into the territory of trying

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Speaker 1: to jump inside of Beyonce and jay Z's brains and

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Speaker 1: be like, well this this maybe this is like a

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Speaker 1: dynamic in their relationship. Maybe they're like into b D

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Speaker 1: s M, or maybe this means something to them that

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Speaker 1: it doesn't mean to us. It's still for someone again

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Speaker 1: who is so hyper vigilant of image management, It's like,

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Speaker 1: why why has that got to be in there? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I mean I think that's an incredib The important

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Speaker 1: thing to keep in mind whenever you're analyzing anything that

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Speaker 1: Beyonce says, does things whatever, you have to remember how

423
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 1: carefully she manages her own I mean, this is a

424
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 1: woman who has you know, basically staff, photographers and videographers

425
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: with her at all times. This is a woman who

426
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: you know, got her people to tell BuzzFeed to take

427
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,160
Speaker 1: down unflattering images of her when her face was doing

428
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:25,360
Speaker 1: something weird. Um, so this is not just like, this

429
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: is not ignorance, like I don't know, I don't know

430
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,159
Speaker 1: what this is, but it's I mean, it's it's a

431
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,199
Speaker 1: deliberate choice. Yeah, but I I mean, I just you

432
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 1: have to wonder why. And then um a Ceba Solomon

433
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: over at color lines dot Com does think that this

434
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: is essentially well condoning spousal abuse or domestic abuse at worst,

435
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 1: but at best just not thinking it's a big deal.

436
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: And she also points out that during Beyonce's Grammy performance

437
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 1: of the song with jay Z, like jay Z is

438
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 1: fully dressed, but Beyonce is like half naked and soaking wet.

439
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: She does say, you know, that's that's her prerogative. Women

440
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,120
Speaker 1: should be allowed to dress however they want to. Dress

441
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: where whatever they want to wear or don't wear. However,

442
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 1: like this is an image choice that she's choosing to

443
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: make well. And if you're so surprised by the Grammys, Like,

444
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: how are you that surprised? Because that's the video, that's

445
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: the aesthetic of the video. She's writhing around on the

446
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: beach in lingerie and jay Z is in a T

447
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: shirt right and nothing new full sure, And and as

448
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,199
Speaker 1: we'll talk about in just a second, like you know,

449
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: we're people as upset at Madonna right right right? And

450
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: also side note, I don't want to see jay Z

451
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,679
Speaker 1: shirt listening. He cuts a good figure in a tuxedo.

452
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: I'll leave it at that. But moving away from aesthetic

453
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: choices lyrical choices to more of the production side of things. Uh.

454
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 1: David Levycy writing at Policy Mike, also points out that, hey, Beyonce,

455
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,040
Speaker 1: if you're all about girls running the world and what's that,

456
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: why don't you help some ladies out in the production

457
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: of your music. Yeah. He points out that out of

458
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 1: the forty five artists listed in the liner notes to

459
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: this latest album, which includes writers, producers, directors, et cetera,

460
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: only six are women, and he wrote that this is

461
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 1: a surprising move for the pop star who very deliberately

462
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 1: chose the all female backing band The Sugar Mom Is

463
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: for her Super Bowl halftime show last year and for

464
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: her Mrs Carter tour side note um a friend of mine,

465
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 1: I was talking to a friend of mine about this

466
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 1: topic and he is a musician, and he was like, well,

467
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: you know, I, you know, I I kind of think

468
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: it's stupid that she pulled together this all female band.

469
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,360
Speaker 1: And I was like, what do you mean, Like, please

470
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: please qualify your statement, and he said, look, I just

471
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,479
Speaker 1: I know some of the guys that used to perform

472
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: with her, and they were better. They're just better musicians.

473
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: And I thought about it for a second and I said,

474
00:27:54,960 --> 00:28:00,120
Speaker 1: you know, I don't care because I personally, I think

475
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 1: if if somebody's going to make a statement along the

476
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: lines of empowering women and giving jobs to women and

477
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: putting women in your face who were like b A musicians,

478
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 1: you know, like, I'm okay with that. I'm okay with

479
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: her choosing musicians who may not be as good as

480
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: the guys who she was playing with, but they're still amazing, right,

481
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,360
Speaker 1: Because that's clearly in Beyonce's own words, Because That's one

482
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: thing that's often left out these conversations or Beyonce's own words, um,

483
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: when she talks about why she pulled together the Sugar

484
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 1: Mama's It wasn't necessarily because she was looking for the

485
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: best musicians out there. She said, quote when I was younger,

486
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: I wish I had more females who played instruments to

487
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: look up to. I played piano for like a second,

488
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: but then I stopped. I just wanted to do something

489
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: which would inspire other young females to get involved in music.

490
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: So I put together an all women bands. And I mean,

491
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 1: I'm thirty, and I think that's so cool. Like, let's

492
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: you know, that's not even to talk about a twelve

493
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: year old girl out there who might think, oh wow,

494
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: look at those women being powerful and amazing and sweaty

495
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 1: up on stage like rocking out with Beyonce at the

496
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: freaking super Bowl, Like I think that's amazing. Yeah, And

497
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: giving her the benefit of the doubt too, you can

498
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: also argue that she is not going to be able

499
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 1: to make every single or probably doesn't want to make

500
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: every single hiring decision for her massive team. Right, and

501
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: Christine osa Zua was blogging about this, and she said, look,

502
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: it's just it's impractical to put all of that weight

503
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: on one human being, one woman, Beyonce, to sort of

504
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: be the savior for all women. She can't lift everyone up.

505
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 1: You know, she this is her career, and like we've said,

506
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: she's managing it. She's making all these decisions. But it's

507
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: not like she can you know, has every ounce of

508
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: control over every aspect of who she performs with. You know.

509
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: And when I read that very pertinent point made by

510
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: osa Zua, it also resonated me in terms of like, yeah,

511
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: this is like, this isn't just about the music industry.

512
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: We can't really hold her up as a beacon of

513
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: hope for radically changing the lives of women everywhere, and

514
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 1: yet we want to, Yeah, I mean we want to. Yeah.

515
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: It's it's like the anger that comes out of this

516
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: is almost saying, you disappoint me when it's not her

517
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: responsibility to be some feminist savior. But at the same time, too,

518
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: you'll have people say, well, okay, with all of the

519
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 1: power that she does wield in the pop world and

520
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: that influence, you can't argue that, you know, she doesn't

521
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 1: have massive influence. Sure, so what about the decision to,

522
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: for instance, title her tour the Mrs Carter Show, which

523
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: again that is a choice, that was a deliberate choice. Yeah.

524
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: And this is a woman who has said that she

525
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: wouldn't be the woman she is today if she didn't

526
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: go home to that man. And a lot of people

527
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 1: are saying, oh, you're defining yourself by this man, You're

528
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 1: defining yourself by your marriage. And she's not entirely disagreeing.

529
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: She is her own woman. She is a powerful, intelligent businesswoman.

530
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: But she also happens to be crazy in love with

531
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 1: jay Z. Yeah, and and some have said to hey, listen,

532
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: Barack Obama has said similar things about Michelle in terms of, hey,

533
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be standing here, as you know, Commander in

534
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: chief if it weren't for my best friend of you know,

535
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: X number of years and the person who has supported

536
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: me through all of this um. And she did actually

537
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: speak to the decision to name the tour the Mrs

538
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: Carter Tour in that interview with British but we sided earlier.

539
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: She said, quote, I feel like Mrs Carter is who

540
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: I am, but more bold and more fearless than I've

541
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,479
Speaker 1: ever been. It comes from my knowing my purpose and

542
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: really meeting myself. Once I saw my child, I was like, okay,

543
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: this is what you were born to do. And this

544
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 1: is what really stood out to me. She said, the

545
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 1: purpose of my body became completely different, and that just

546
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: blew my mind because underlying all of these this whole

547
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 1: conversation about it is she isn't she? Is she really

548
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 1: what she says she is? In terms of feminism, it

549
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: all circles back to her body and how we view

550
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: her body and how she wants us to view her body,

551
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: and whether she's putting her body on display for herself

552
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,719
Speaker 1: or for other men or just for jay Z, you know,

553
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: and the whole issue of how do we reconcile her

554
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: sexuality and her commodifying her own body and feminism. Yeah,

555
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: and a lot of people would argue that, look, hey,

556
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: it's just not feminist. You're not a feminist for putting

557
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: on some slinky body suit and dancing around. And one

558
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: of those people who spoke out about that was Anna Holmes,

559
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: who's the founder of Jezebel. And you know, she says

560
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: that maybe this is like a younger feminist game, like

561
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: it's not of her more conservative older feminist perspective to

562
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 1: you know, dance around in basically a bikini. Um. She

563
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: says that, you know, it's it feels like a performance

564
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: just for the benefit of men. And similarly, Ernest Owens,

565
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: who is an entertainment media journalist, writes that for a

566
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 1: woman who is masked with the art of being grown

567
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 1: and sexy, never has Beyonce in the past relied so

568
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: heavily on her physicality to let that overshadow the divine

569
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: talent that many praise her for religiously. And I can

570
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: definitely see that in this new album, I mean the

571
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 1: choice to make it a visual album, making seventeen different

572
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: videos that are you know that that are a lot

573
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: about her and what she looks like in her body,

574
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: to where you're focusing so much on what she's wearing,

575
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 1: how she's moving, how her she's presenting her body, that

576
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: it kind of you kind of don't think so much

577
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: about her voice. Yeah, And Owens was definitely arguing that

578
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: and and saying things along the lines of, you know,

579
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: we don't wonder what kind of underwear jay Z is

580
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 1: wearing when he's performing. Us some of us in this

581
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: room right now don't all right about jay Z's underwear

582
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: and he Owens is arguing that doing so, doing so

583
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 1: really does oversimplify Beyonce, pop stars women in general, you know,

584
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 1: he it seems like there's a little bit of you know,

585
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: Owen's being torn, Like, you know, she should be allowed

586
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: to dance and wear whatever she's wearing when she dances,

587
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: because it's her body and it's her thing or whatever.

588
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: But also we're relying too much on that visual, We're

589
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: reading too much into it. We're making assumptions about her.

590
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,919
Speaker 1: We're not thinking about how she's a tenacious businesswoman. We're

591
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 1: just thinking about how good she looks at Andree. Yeah,

592
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: it's kind of the question of is even if it

593
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,879
Speaker 1: is Beyonce telling girls that feminism is that everyone should

594
00:34:55,880 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: be a feminist. According to Chimamanda Negoziadici, is that message

595
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: really going to be all that powerful if she's saying

596
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: while she's on her knees, right, Yeah, A lot That

597
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:08,919
Speaker 1: has been a lot of people's argument. It's like, yes,

598
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 1: say whatever you want, but you're still like practically wearing

599
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 1: nothing on the cover of g Q, you know, like

600
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 1: your two messages aren't driving. Yeah, But at the same

601
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: time too, it's that same embrace, clear embrace of her

602
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: own body. I mean, Beyonce clearly loves looking like Beyonce,

603
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 1: and I would too. Um And Brittany Cooper, who's the

604
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 1: professor Rutgers says that, hey, actually her videos are empowering. Quote.

605
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: I think it's esque. But I think she's asking us

606
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 1: to think about what it means for black women to

607
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 1: be sexual on our terms. And that's something that we

608
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 1: haven't touched on at all in this conversation up to

609
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:52,760
Speaker 1: this point. Is race, because we're talking not only about

610
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 1: a pop icon, but we were talking about a black

611
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 1: pop icon, and I think that that does color people's

612
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: perspectives of that, and not necessarily in a positive way.

613
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 1: And along those same lines, Semita Marco Patya over at

614
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: Feminist NG talks about how the album made us us

615
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: women of color feel really sexy and that's powerful. That

616
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 1: means something, she said, whereas the rest of popular culture

617
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 1: may not have that impact on us as young women

618
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: of color. It's that whole issue of the historical perception

619
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 1: of black women, their sexuality, what their sexuality means, who

620
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,439
Speaker 1: it's for. It's like it's almost as if they haven't

621
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: been a part of their own discussion. Yeah, and one

622
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 1: part of the her visual album that jumps out to

623
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 1: me in this part of the conversation is the opening

624
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: of Partition where she's sitting there, um, you know, having

625
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 1: having a fancy brunch, and she intentionally picks up a

626
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: napkin and drops it in order to usher immediately this

627
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: white maid to come over and pick it up. And

628
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: one of the uh analyzes that I was reading about

629
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: that was basically like, in a way, it seems like

630
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: that's Beyonce kind of giving the middle finger to you know,

631
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: white women who you know, want to have control over

632
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: how she displays her body and how she moves it. Sure, well,

633
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 1: that's That's part of this argument too, is that a

634
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 1: lot of women of color are speaking out saying that

635
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,320
Speaker 1: white feminists are telling us how to do things, that

636
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 1: we're not doing feminism right, we're not doing our bodies right,

637
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 1: we're not doing sexuality right. And you know a lot

638
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: of these women say they've had enough. And I fully

639
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 1: agree that, Um, that it's complicated, which is part of

640
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: why I wanted to talk about this, But um, I

641
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 1: am not on board with saying Beyonce is not a

642
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 1: feminist because she dresses like X, because that's a lot

643
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: of body policing that's going on. And also you swing

644
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: it to the other side, and you have feminists who

645
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: have similarly said, oh, you know, it must the women

646
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: who are wearing the jobs, who are covering their bodies completely,

647
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: you're not showing enough skin, and that it's not feminist.

648
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: So it's like, well, does this mean that there is

649
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: a specific way that it is going to be acceptable

650
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,320
Speaker 1: for me to dress according to your politics, because apparently

651
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: there's a uniform and from what I know of feminism,

652
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: that's that's a nope, that's not the way it is

653
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: or not the way it should be. No, I absolutely agree.

654
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 1: My uniform happens to be Liz Lemon plaid shirts and cardigans. Same.

655
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: But that's just me. That's just yeah. I prefer stretchy

656
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 1: pants and an oversized T shirt, you know. But no,

657
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: I I totally agree. I I think it's a moot

658
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: point to say that you are or are not a

659
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 1: feminist based on how you dress and how you physically

660
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 1: present yourself. I think there's way way more to it

661
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 1: than that. And you mentioned Madonna earlier, though Caroline and

662
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: Tamara Winfrey Harris made a really astute observation about the

663
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: difference between how white sexuality female sexuality is often judged

664
00:38:55,760 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: as something that is controlled and intentional. Madonna is old

665
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 1: as this amazing feminist who you know. She she wanted

666
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 1: to get naked and wear her cone braws and ride

667
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: on the floor, and that's totally fine because that's you know,

668
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:15,359
Speaker 1: that's control. She's breaking boundaries, whereas black sexuality, for so long,

669
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 1: you know, in in the most racist sense, has been

670
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 1: deemed as animalistic. And so for Beyonce, it's thoughtless. It's

671
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 1: not a choice. She's you know, she's dressing like that

672
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 1: simply for the male gaze. It must be that, right,

673
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: Which that's when it's like, oh well, oh well, it

674
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 1: is complicated. Sarah Jackson, who's a race and media scholar

675
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: at Northeastern, talks about how this whole argument and the

676
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 1: criticism ignores the fact that there are limited choices available

677
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 1: to women in the entertainment industry, and she says, the

678
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 1: limited ways Beyonce is allowed to express her sexuality because

679
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,359
Speaker 1: of her gender and her race, that's I mean, that's

680
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 1: another layer of it. Yeah, I think the essay that

681
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 1: resonated the most with me about this as written by

682
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: Anne Helen Peterson, who spoiler alert, we're having on stuff

683
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: I've never told you very soon google her her blog

684
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: is amazing. Um. But she sort of talked about the

685
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:16,879
Speaker 1: ambivalence of this whole issue because on the one hand,

686
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: she really enjoys Beyonce as a pop star, but she

687
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 1: can't so easily reconcile the feminism that she is in

688
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: a way selling. You know, I mean, she's she's commodifying

689
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: feminism along with all of her songs and her looks

690
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 1: and everything like that. It's now part of the package.

691
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: And while you know, it's good that she's talking about it,

692
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: at the same time, we can ask for better, can't

693
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 1: we maybe a more legitimately across the world empowering portrayal

694
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: of women. I don't know, yeah, um, but I mean

695
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 1: along that line, we do need to ask ourselves why

696
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 1: we're asking so much of Beyonce herself. Like, you know,

697
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 1: this is a woman, like okay, Like, let's break this

698
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 1: down real quick. This is a woman who is like

699
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: a self managed BA jillionaire, who's obviously intelligent, driven all

700
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,320
Speaker 1: of that good stuff. She's also sexy, she's got a

701
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: great body, she is in love with her husband. You know,

702
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 1: she has she's a mother, and she's incredibly dedicated to

703
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 1: her kid. So, like, you know, it's it seems like

704
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,479
Speaker 1: in all of these conversations, you know, there's always somebody

705
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 1: talking about having it all and can you have it all?

706
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 1: And here's Beyonce, who you know, has so much, and

707
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 1: we expect her to be things that you know, I don't.

708
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just not even fair of all the things

709
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 1: that people are expecting her to be because she is

710
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 1: so much and she does so much, she's not the

711
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: answer to our problems. Well, and whenever we start looking

712
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,919
Speaker 1: around for a perfect feminist, that's the most pointless extra

713
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: size because who among us is That's not that's not

714
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: really the point. Um. I also liked what Tommy Gibinson,

715
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 1: um Rookie mag founder had to say about it too.

716
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,439
Speaker 1: She was like, if anything, I'm grateful for the fact

717
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 1: that I mean, Beyonce's clearly working some things out and

718
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,359
Speaker 1: but she's doing it publicly, and this album to her

719
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: was a step forward because I mean, it does show

720
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: us all of those sides that you just mentioned of

721
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: being sexy, ambitious, working out feminism, being married, having insecurities,

722
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 1: being a mother all of it right there, and she

723
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 1: handed it to us and was like, well there you go.

724
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 1: And and people, we people are saying it's not it's

725
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 1: not good enough, not yeah, but you know, it's like, well,

726
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 1: who who are you? I don't know, who are you?

727
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 1: Who is she? What? You know? Yeah, After a day

728
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,320
Speaker 1: of reading a lot of stuff about this um and

729
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 1: feeling just torn about the fact that this entire conversation

730
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: was going on, one thing I put on tumbler was that, hey,

731
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 1: you know she is She said that she's a feminist.

732
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 1: And she said that to an audience of girls, like

733
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 1: we said, who who are probably not that exposed to

734
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:11,800
Speaker 1: feminism and gender equality? And I would hate for the

735
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 1: outcome of this to be those same girls just hearing

736
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 1: feminists say nope, not good enough. Because if Beyonce is

737
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 1: not good enough Beyonce can't you know, measure up to

738
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 1: the standards that we apparently have for her, then who

739
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: among us can? Yeah? And I think it is so unproductive,

740
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: both in my own life and Beyonce's life, and you

741
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: know whatever, It's so unproductive to just have a conversation

742
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 1: about are you a good enough feminist? How about how

743
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 1: about women supporting women. How about supporting Beyonce for her

744
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,919
Speaker 1: decisions and just say right on, sister, you know, good

745
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: for you for speaking out. I mean, at least she's

746
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 1: I mean, look at her career, she's she's doing it

747
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,359
Speaker 1: for herself, you know, and Blue Ivy doing it for Blue.

748
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:03,800
Speaker 1: That's right. But one final question though, Caroline, why do

749
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 1: you why do you think this caused such an uproar?

750
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 1: Why do you think we care so much? She's one woman? Yeah,

751
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 1: I think, Um, so, okay, this is gonna be a

752
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: really rough analogy. But so like when I walk into

753
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 1: the break room at the office and I see that

754
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:27,240
Speaker 1: someone has brought in cupcakes, I'm like, oh my god, cupcakes. Wait, wait, okay,

755
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 1: there will be other cupcakes. Like, I don't have to

756
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: get super excited about eating all of these cupcakes and

757
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 1: putting them all in my face. Do you see where

758
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: I'm going with this? I think that there are women

759
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: out there, men whoever, people out there who are so

760
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 1: excited at the prospect of some big star or some

761
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 1: big public person um taking on the issue of feminism

762
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: saying I'm a feminist. And then, however, when that person

763
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 1: is not exactly on point or not exactly falling into

764
00:44:56,080 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 1: line with what this group of viewers thinks should be feminist.

765
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: I think people get so upset and angry at that person,

766
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:06,879
Speaker 1: and that's not fair. Yeah. I think in a way

767
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 1: this conversation has become has spun out into a way

768
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: that we a lot of women of our generation are

769
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: working out our own anxieties about gender and feminism and

770
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 1: success onto Beyonce. You know, there will be other cupcakes,

771
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 1: there will be other feminists. Not everybody is perfect. I

772
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 1: think that, um, we have to let people be who

773
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: they are and not be angry at them for them

774
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 1: failing us personally in some way. Right, But I will

775
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,320
Speaker 1: tell you this, Caroline, there will never be another Beyonce.

776
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: That's right? Did I was? I? Did I go jogging

777
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: to Beyonce this morning? Yes? I did, Yes I did.

778
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 1: That was what I got pumped up for this podcast.

779
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 1: So I want to open it up though, to listeners.

780
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:54,800
Speaker 1: I'm so curious to know what other people think about this, Um, Beyonce,

781
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 1: share your thoughts mom step discovery dot com, especially for

782
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: younger listeners out there who might have you know, been

783
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: growing up on a steady diet of Beyonce. What do

784
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 1: you think about all of this because I feel like

785
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: a lot of the conversation is dominated by women our

786
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 1: age and you know who are like what two Carolina,

787
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 1: uh So, write us mom Stuff at Discovery dot com

788
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 1: or you can tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or

789
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 1: message us on Facebook and we have a couple of

790
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 1: messages to share with you from Facebook right now. Well,

791
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 1: I am loving the feedback that we're getting on coffee

792
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 1: and the kind of barista bro rista culture. And I

793
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 1: have a letter here from Sarah who says on bro

794
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 1: Rista's I used to be a barista, and both of

795
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:45,840
Speaker 1: my girlfriends as well. When we go to a coffee

796
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 1: house and see a guy behind the counter, we assume

797
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 1: our coffee will not be good, that only a woman

798
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,240
Speaker 1: can make a proper espresso drink. I know that it's sexist,

799
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: but women have been better at pulling shots and creating

800
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 1: the perfect coffee in our experience, so I had no

801
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 1: idea that it was a man's world for coffee. Great

802
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:03,959
Speaker 1: episode and it was nice to see the other side

803
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 1: of it. So thank you, Sarah. Well, I've got one

804
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: here from Tara, who is a female barista, who says,

805
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 1: I can confirm one of what you say is true.

806
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 1: We Barris says, all know the differences in customers based

807
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 1: on gender and age. We see teenage girls approaching, we

808
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 1: joke about how many frappuccinos were about to make. When

809
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 1: we see a large group of middle aged women, we

810
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 1: immediately start foaming a large picture of non fat milk,

811
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 1: because more likely than not we will be serving a

812
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 1: bunch of skinny latte's. We use this to our advantage

813
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 1: when upselling customers. For example, of a woman orders a

814
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 1: black coffee, I can almost always raise the price of

815
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 1: the drink by suggestively selling some vanilla or hazelnuts syrup.

816
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 1: When I ask men if they want to flavor in

817
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,800
Speaker 1: their black coffee, it is almost always a resounding no,

818
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 1: followed by a look that suggests I question this very

819
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: manhood by suggesting that he might like a flavored coffee. Additionally,

820
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:53,799
Speaker 1: I can increase the average ticket of any man ordering

821
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 1: a black coffee by asking if he'd like to make

822
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:59,839
Speaker 1: his coffee stronger by adding shots of espresso. Many people

823
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: believe their extra classy and ordering a straight Americano I

824
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: love americanos or black coffee, but in reality they're missing

825
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 1: out on all the things we as baristas can create

826
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 1: with different flavors and coffees. Many men will never know

827
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 1: the deliciousness of assaulted caramel mocha simply because it's considered feminine. Interestingly,

828
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:20,240
Speaker 1: all but one brest at her coffee shop is female.

829
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,319
Speaker 1: That being said, every woman experiences sexual harassment on the job,

830
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 1: at least in my place of employment. And while we

831
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 1: were obviously not allowed to scream in any paying customers,

832
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 1: we will most certainly all caps give you decaf cover.

833
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 1: It is seen as an act of solidarity between female

834
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 1: barristas to decaf the creepy dude who just harassed your coworker.

835
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 1: I wrote her back and told her that I was

836
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: so glad she found a legal, a legal kind of

837
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 1: tame way to get back at creeps decaffing. I like

838
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 1: it well. If you have thoughts to share with us,

839
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:58,880
Speaker 1: Mom stuff at Discovery dot com is our email address

840
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 1: and for links to all of our social media contacts,

841
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 1: blog post videos, and all of our podcast you can

842
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 1: head on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot

843
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